Episode 7 - Scenario Discussions pt 2

Welcome to the Unpiring Fast Pitch Softball Podcast. I'm David. And I'm Pete. And today we're going to pick up from our last episode where we were covering some things that we had found in the groups, specifically in this case, the NFHS umpires softball group on Facebook. And we had so many things that we wanted to talk about and they were such a good fodder for discussions that we were starting to run long and we decided to just turn this effectively into a two-parter. So the first one that we're going to come up as a situation where someone was asking about tracking pitches and they were trying to get better at tracking pitches coming in. And the clue to them, whether the prompt to them to give them was to use their nose to track pitches in. And there were some people who did not like that. They felt like moving the head during the pitch caused you to not see it as well. And there was discussion that I think in baseball they were saying that moving your head is completely anathema. So David would say you about tracking pitches and nose to ball. So what I say is what does the manual say? And the manual says to track the pitch with your nose. So every clinic I've been to, if I had in my earlier years of umpiring, I struggled to grab onto this mechanic where or this activity to track the pitch all the way to the glove. And as a coach of a pitcher, so I raised a pitcher. And I would see umpires completely miss the curve ball across the plate and actually become a strike. Even though the drop curve maybe was caught almost at the dirt, where we have a catcher who has set up four feet, young girls, they're set up four feet behind the plate. The strike zone is four feet ahead of her. And the pitch coming in above the front knee and completely on the plate and then falling off as the pitcher worked so hard to get that drop curve ball. And I see the umpire follow the pitch with his nose all the way down to almost the dirt where the catcher caught the ball and y'all ball. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it was certainly not a ball until you call it one as it is now. And so I thought that movement of the head was really, you know, where is the, where did she catch the ball is what drove the call. I hated that making, I hated it. And so when I started becoming, when I was starting my time at umpiring, I didn't move my head. I watched the ball enter the strike zone or miss the strike zone and then made my call from there until I got yelled at and said, you're not tracking the pitch. I'm tracking the pitch all the way to the strike zone. You're supposed to track the pitch with your nose all the way to where it's caught. But I'm like, I don't like that, tough. That's what the mechanic is. And to this day, Pete, I gotta tell you, I'm not a fan, I do it because, you know, I get evaluated and, you know, I want to get the plate on championship day, right? So I do it because that's how I've been taught to do it. If I were to be able to sit down with those folks that have been doing it for years, I want to know. I really desperately want to know why. Right. I have the same thing. So it's, I get the use, you know, track with your nose all the time. I feel like I'm tracking the pitches. I think to a certain degree, I probably I'm doing it, I'm doing it with my eyes, I'm doing it with a slight, like maybe not, you know, not of the head, but not nose to ball enough. And I get that feedback a lot. So when I'm calling every mechanic in central Ohio, we have clinics every year before the high school season starts. It's a free clinic put on. It's part of the great work that they do here. And one of the parts they do is the plate part and they're like, I like your setup. I feel like you're in the slot, a good pelvic alignment. You're doing this nose to ball, nose to ball, nose to ball. And I get it. And for the same reason, you said, I don't necessarily understand it. I'd be interested to know maybe some people could talk about why I do it or I try to do it because that is the, the mechanic, but at the same time, like you said, the strike zone begins at the front edge of the plate. And if there's any pitches with any movement at any high level, if they are going to be strikes, it is most often at the front of the plate. And if you follow through the zone, the zone is now, quote, unquote, abandoned past the point of the plate. So what, what are we looking to see? And I don't know. Maybe that's one of those confidence things that we've talked about a couple times that the people watching will agree with your calls a little more because it, it appears that you saw the ball from the second it left her fingertips until the second it smacked leather. And you saw it all, every point in between, including the points that it did or did not cross the plate between the knees and the front armpit. Yeah. Yeah. So I did have a great example come to me from a UIC from the Northeast. Great respect for this gentleman. And if you think about how you set up, so calling pitches, it's really important, good pelvic alignment, you know, the PPA proper pelvic alignment, I think is how we refer to it, being, you know, how far are you crouched? And so we've, we're all taught you get your eyes to the top of the strike zone. So now if you're tracking a pitch and your eyes are at the top of the strike zone and that pitch misses high, what happens with your head? It should not. It goes up. Yeah. It goes up. Everybody watching now. So you watch the ball go up and say, ball. Where was that? Blue? It was high. Everybody knows it was high because your nose went up. So in that case, tracking that pitch can actually help you with the legitimacy of your call, if you will, like you mentioned. So there's that piece. I would, I'd go a little bit further to the original poster, you know, and say, hey, what tips do you have for that and for tracking a pitch? I would expand that a little bit to say what tips do you have for being able to see the strike zone? So make sure that you can see the whole zone. Yeah. And often a pitcher, you know, moving, you're going to set up the pitchers on the point our catcher does this all the time. So catcher, not pitcher. Our catcher in college does this all the time. Set up on the point of the plate, gives the signal to the pitcher. And then when the batter is not paying attention, so then she will move into position for that has to do with what pitch she called in the location. She called it when she moves, she may move completely blocking the outside corner of the plate. If she's going to call it inside pitch, higher in the zone, she may be completely blocking you from seeing the outside corner. What do you got to do there, Pete? Raise up a little bit. Yeah, you got to get up. Right. So now you're, it's more important to be able to see the strike zone than to have your eyes at the top of the strike zone. Right. So you're going to raise up a little bit to be able to see the whole plate. That'd be probably the best piece of advice I would give to a new umpire trying to learn to track a pitch. Make sure that you can see the entire strike zone is certainly part of that. So there's two parts of that I kind of want to ask you about, see what you think. Number one, this one's faster so I'll do this part first. There are some umpires who get scared or think maybe they need to change what they do. Say the pitch, the catcher starts at the point of play to give the signs, moves to the outside corner. Right. So if I'm in the slot, basically my belly button is at the edge of the plate, the inside edge of the plate. You know, so I'm half my body is to the inside of the plate, half to the, you know, towards the plate. I'm now more or less completely exposed. Yeah. Right. They just want to move and they want to stay with that. They're right ear to the catcher's left ear and so if the catcher moves, they want to set up though. They'll wait till the catcher sets up and then they move to the, they call their slot and then it's there. Yeah. So do you think about that? You don't move. Yeah, don't move. Please don't move. No, stay there. It um, it really looks bad if you're, if you're moving and trying to hide behind a catcher. The uh, the idea of setting up, in my opinion anyway, I didn't write the manual, but the idea of setting up with your right ear on the catcher's left ear, you know, in the slot, if you will, in heel toe. So you've got good pelvic alignment. That idea is so that you can see the entire strike zone. If she moves out of the way, can you no longer see the entire strike zone? No, you can see the entire strike zone. Fantastic. It doesn't have anything to do. The strike has nothing to do with the catcher. The strike or ball call has everything to do with the batter and the plate. So you set up to see the relationship between the batter and the plate and the strike zone and don't move. Yep. I agree. And often, as people point it out, if you're nervous, just keep in mind, the pitcher is now throwing at the catcher, not you. That's right. So unless you, you are given reason to think the catcher can't catch the ball that's, you know, a foot to the left or where she is, which you've probably seen her do anyway. As she's set up inside and the pitch goes inside and she catches it, don't be as, don't be as nervous. And if they foul the ball, it's probably going more straight back anyway, not back into the left. So you're, you're probably finding, you know, safety wise, I've never, I've never been hit in that instance. Yeah. Also, also say this, trust your equipment. Yeah. You know, use your, you have a mask for a reason, a chest protector and other protector. That's definitely for a reason. So trust that equipment, same thing we would tell young catchers, don't, don't turn your head. Yeah. Your, your mask works best if it's, you know, it takes one straight on. So don't turn your head. Don't move. Yeah. I got one foul right off my foot and the catcher asked me like two or three times if I was alright. And I was like, there's metal in my shoes. Yeah. And she was like, really? Yeah. That's why I'm not confident. What about, so here's the other one, you're set up, where you're supposed to be in the slot, and the batter who comes to bat takes a stance that puts a majority of her shoulder arms and everything over the plate blocking. You can't see the pitcher's release at all from if you are perfectly in the slot, but you can see the zone obviously, but you can't see what's beyond that. What do you think about that? That's a tough one. I still try to move only vertically up and down to try to get a, a view of the ball as it's coming out of the pitcher's hand, but that's the less important part in my opinion. So I'm not going to move left and right. I've actually been given some feedback, some constructive feedback about leaning. So I've set up in the slot, the batter comes in just as you've described, blocks my view so I can lean a little bit to the right. You know, I'm up a little in leaning a little over the, over the catcher's head maybe. And I've been told, don't do that. Yeah, I think it really does come down to once you've set your feet, you're set up. That's where you're set. And so you set up in the slot and you stay there and adjust as you can up and down to try to get the best view and you hate it. You can't guess at a strike, but that's tough. Yeah. I don't like it. I feel like you're almost like some kind of animal that smells some kind of predator or it feels this fear. Like you're sitting there and you're looking and you can't see perfectly. Like your vision is obstructed in some way and it does, it feels, it feels disconcerting. We kind of just have to stay there, kind of face that, look where you're supposed to be looking, looking for that tunnel where the pitch is coming from, look at that zone and see it. Even if you can't see all of it, you get cues to about kind of when it's coming and if you time it right and if you know it's there, you know, maybe you, you set up a little later or something to kind of know, you know, is the pitcher on the plate. She seem to be about ready to deliver the ball. Sure. In our previous episode too, there's something else too. This is more advanced in my opinion. The, in our previous episode, we said that you can pre-pitch plan and the first time that batter comes into the batter's box, you're going to get stuck because you've already set up. Yeah. Know her. Remember her. And when she comes back in again, maybe when you set up in the slot, maybe your slots a little narrower than it was last time so that you're avoiding a little bit more. Maybe you've got your nose on the catchers left ear instead of your right ear on the catchers left ear so that you're avoiding that piece. And again, that's advanced, a little more advanced. A lot of the younger umpires have a lot going through their mind. What the heck am I, you know, my pre-pitch plan is am I supposed to bust out and follow her up first base or what the heck am I supposed to do. Once you have that being muscle memory and it's just automatic habit for you, then some of these other advanced things you can start to think about. Awesome. This next one actually, as we were discussing, you know, as a preparation for this episode, this one took some extra thinking, some logical thinking. It's kind of an involved play so I'm going to do a little bit of reading here. So here we go. Is a pitch a play for the purposes of the illegal pitch penalty? So in the bottom of the seventh inning, the home team is losing by two runs. There are two outs. The home team has runners on second and third and one of their best hitters at the plate. She hits the first pitch over the fence, down the line, but just foul. The next three pitches are out of the strike zone, so it's three and one. On the next pitch, the pitcher commits an illegal pitch but delivers the ball and the batter hits another ball deep and foul. The home team umpire calls time, announces the illegal pitch and sends the batter to first due to the ball penalty that would result in a ball four and a walk. The home team's head coach says, "Hey, blue, where's my option to take the penalty or the play? I want the batter to stay up with the three two count." The player umpires says, "No, you can't have a play unless the batter hits the ball fair or the defense makes an attempt to retire the runner." The coach says, "I protest." So who's right? "I protest." "I would protest too, I think. I certainly see where the coach is coming from. He definitely wants to have his slugger in there with another shot at it. We've had that happen often. I talk about it with our head coach at Auderbine sometimes about, you know, we've got runners at second and third and a slugger up in a hitter's count. "Mm-hmm." So me the hitting guy says, "Swing away, this is the best pitcher you're going to get. I want you swinging out of your shoes on this one because I'm looking for a dinger on this pitch and some other coaches would be like, "Hey, you might walk. Let's go, you know, tighten your strike zone up a little bit. Make sure that you're, you know, sitting fastball or something like that and I'm an aggressive hitter person. So I'm like, "No, swing out of your shoes on this one. Just like Major League Baseball. You'll see here that all the time." You know, it's a, who knows what the pitch is going to be, but it's a three one count. So he's coming out of his shoes on this one. "Mm-hmm." Because I've got runners in scoring position and a base it's what I need. "Right." "Walking's not a cool thing. So, is it a play?" so when we first started discussing this one, you know, is the illegal pitch a play and. "Where's the foul ball play?" "Where's the foul ball play?" "Okay." "Yeah, that's a good point too." "Certainly, I think it is if it's an automatic decision if it's three, three one and, you know, the foul ball goes, for sure, then it's a three two, you know, should you get the option or not?" So that's, I think that's what the question boils down to. And off the top of my head without having a case play or a rule, the answer to me for me would be that, yes, he gets the option. It was a foul ball. "Mm-hmm." And so I can either take the, take base four, take the, take the walk, ball four block, or I can stand there and hit. So for me, I think it's an option. "Yeah. I think so too. As we are going through, we are looking at what's the definition of play. And from this scenario that I'm reading, you know, the language used here where the batter hits the ball fair, defense making an attempt to retire the runner, some of those things do appear under the definition of a play. So I don't know if this is a fictional scenario that was created in order to prompt this discussion or if it's a real scenario that happened, but people's minds, you know, in this story, the play on the part of his mind is headed in the right direction. But kind of where we ultimately got to was start to think about, would that foul ball be considered a play in other instances, right David, and what did we kind of come out to? That's right. Yeah, so there's some other scenarios where a foul ball could be a play, if you will. So let's think about the case where someone has batted out of order and they're now standing on first base and the, the next pitch comes in and is a foul ball. Now the coach no longer has the ability to protest that there was a, or appeal that there was a batting out of order further, if you look at even in the illegal pitch rules, it will say a pitch delivered to the plate, whether legal or illegal is a play. So now that's done and you can no longer, you know, appeal that, that out of order. So illegal pitch or not, foul ball or not, I think from the original post, it's play. And the coach should have the ability to say, no, no, no, I want the result of the play. I do not want the penalty in this case. I don't want ball for, I want the result of the play, which was a foul ball. And to follow that through, what if the pitch was delivered illegally as in the option there, but it was taken in a called strike, because the coach still have the option to take the result, called strike three, two, or must be forced to go to the base. Yeah, I don't think you can force it to the base in that case. I really think you have to give the option to the coach. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think from the discussion we saw and from the rules as we kind of dug into it, I think it strongly makes sense. So if we come to the rules with the idea of A, intent, and B, as you said before, oftentimes if you, if you think about what is the fairest thing that can possibly happen, you probably have stumbled into the rule, you know, so it's like because the rules are created to create fairness, to give no one an advantage over anyone else. And so now, in this case, by forcing that ball and putting that runner on, effectively, you know, almost the same thing as if the defense had decided to potentially walk her. You have given the defense an advantage by making not what the offense wanted to happen. The pitcher created a violation, had she not created, had the pitcher not violated, the pitch would come in, it would have been hit foul and it'd be three two. So now you've got the pitcher creating an infraction that just gave the defense, the defense and an advantage that they should not have had had she done her job correctly. Yeah, probably the best point yet, without a case play to actually refer to, and that's probably the best point you've made yet, you know, we try to make this a fair thing. We can't give the advantage to the people that messed up, that's definitely a thing. The, and then one more change to the scenario, to say what if it's only one out in this case, and now it's a long foul ball to the right field foul territory, you know, out in the corner, and it's actually caught for out number two in the runner third tags and, and scores. And then the plate umpire says, no, no, no, illegal pitch, you know, just ball four, go go, try it on down to first base here, and you by the way, go back to third, no, no, that's I get an option here on a foul ball. Yeah, right, because you had a tag up and you had a baby, I like, I'll take the sack fly. Exactly. I might want to out. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, perfect. So the next one, this one's kind of quick. As someone said, I recently saw an NFHS ump use a signal I've not seen before pounding or tapping their fists on top of each other. I've never seen it in a softball manual that I can recall. What's it for? I'm guessing it comes from baseball, fly ball coverage, maybe based on context. So they're confused. They saw the tapping of the fists on top of each other. What is that? So unfortunately, he hasn't seen that come from far to him. But yeah, this is a something I believe came from the NCAA umpires, at least that's the first time I've seen it. For me, I was actually again out in Colorado or Oklahoma, and I was behind the plate, and I had U3 with a three man and had U3 was now standing over at second base runner first. So U3 is at second base and a very close pitch, outside corner type of pitch, and I've been working that tournament. I've been working on my verbals for balls. So just ball, it's in the dirt type thing, but hey, this one's close, it could be a strike. It's ball. I want everybody, I want grandma on right field to hear that that was a ball, and not wait on me to stand up and indicate a strike to know what happened. So I've been working on that, and this was a really close pitch. And I called it a ball loudly, and I can see right straight through to my U3 standing there at second base with these couple of taps on putting their fists together, one on top of the other, just a couple of taps, and it's like, cool, good call. He's out there, got a great view of the strike zone as well, from that position, head on, and agreed with my ball call, which while we would love to say, I don't care if you agreed or not, I'm the one that made the call. No, you care? Yeah. I do anyway. I care that other umpires can appreciate a good call. So have you ever seen it? Yeah, I have, actually it happened the other day, I was so excited, um, I had my first one this year anyway. I unfortunately haven't worked with partners a lot this year, but I had a guy, and it was a very competitive game, and a girl was going to third, and I was in the field, and I was over there, and I was in position, and I called her, and then I got set, and they looked back up, and he gave me that signal, and so that did make me feel a lot better, because what I saw was the ball got there in advance, tag was applied, got the girl coming into the base, you know, and I had out, of course, the third base coach, apoplectic, you know, um, he couldn't believe that I made that call, um, you know, when his girl's totally safe, she avoided blah, blah, blah, and then to get that, it does just give me that confidence, and oh, I saw it right, just it's not anything else, you know, that I, did I miss that, did I get it? Did she really get her on tag? Was that in a bad position? Did I have a terrible angle? Yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, no, immediately, I stopped worrying about that. Yeah, affirmation from your partner, this did good, you know, that's, it's flush now, it's completely flushed, because I know that's just, it closed the loop, and I'm good. Yeah, that's a lot of fun. So to that original poster, um, good luck, and hopefully you, uh, you get to see that signal, um, at you, sometime in the near future. Yep. Um, and then this is slightly related, so what about overturning a call? So the idea that a call happens, right, let's say that play went in, right, and to third, and the play and empire had a different opinion, right? What are the circumstances, um, well, how we would overturn a call, what are the mechanics on that? What's the procedure? Where? Something like that might happen. What are these circumstances where it could be overturned? Yeah, first of all, overturned, um, is, should just be erased from your, from, uh, your vocabulary. Returned is, is not a thing, so calls can be reversed or changed, um, overturned is not a thing. Here, coaches all the time, you know, well, I'll go to the play, um, the play, um, power overturned that call made by the base um, and that can't be a thing. We, we have, uh, equal authority to make the calls that are ours in the mechanics manual. Mm hmm. And, uh, what, what should happen there? So let's use your, your play, you know, we've got a bang, bang at third, the base um, pyres in position makes a call and the third base coach wants to, uh, once the plate um pyres opinion to overturn the call. So the actual procedure that needs to happen, and I almost always will talk about this procedure in the plate meeting. Yeah. So it's not part of the mechanics manual to talk about that procedure, but I've seen it so much of it that, that I think it's important to say the proper procedure would be to wait until there's a stoppage in play call time. So you get that time usually from the plate umpire, because they're the one in charge of it. But if the, you're in C and it's a third base coach, you can say, hey, time blew. And then you can call time and when the plate umpire says time, you know, at your grease, yes, we have time. We've got a suspension of play. You should approach, you as the coach, if you have the question, you should approach the umpire that made the call. Yes. And so once you've approached the umpire that made the, and by the way, um, I've seen this in college too, you don't have to ask the plate umpire for permission to go talk to the base umpire this you, they're an umpire, you're a coach, you can go ask whichever one you want. Right. So once there's a suspension in play, though, go ask the umpire that made the call and what you should be asking for is something along the lines of um, you know, I noticed you were still moving. I noticed you were running. I noticed you were blocked by my runner. It looked like you may have been blocked by my runner or something along those lines that talks about an element of what's needed to make that play, to make that call. And so in oftentimes, you know, the play don't fire is standing at the plate and they're looking up the baseline and they have a view to the play that's happening there at third. And um, especially on a steel, something like that where you're still outside of the diamond and you're not, you may not see it correctly. And they should ask you then, would you go ask your partner if they may have seen some thing that you did not, they may have more information than what you have. If that's asked in a respectful manner, at 100% of the time, absolutely coach, I will go talk to them. And then you call the umpire out there for you with you. If it's three man or four man, all of you get together because now we've got a suspension in play. We may as well find out what all the arbiters saw, sure. And um, discuss the play. The plate umpire may have information for you. I said it that way on purpose because it is information for you. It is your call. It is not the plate umpire's call. The plate umpire cannot overturn your call. That's why I say overturn, get that out of here. It's your call to make. If the plate umpire does have information for you to consider in making the call and you change that call now to safe, you say, oh, yeah, I saw the ball rolling along the ground. Mm hmm. Oh, whoop. Yeah, then she's not out. Correct. Yeah, she wouldn't be out. To the base umpire who made the initial call, turn around, change the call to safe and leave the runner there at third. And hopefully the third base umpire, or the third base coach is going to say, thanks for asking blue, whether it went his way or not. But that's the procedure in my opinion for how that's supposed to work. Yeah. I agree. So it has to be what you're looking for is something that's appealable, right? Like you say, one of the elements that you're looking for, like the ball being on the ground or, you know, a tag, you did not see the tag from the angle you're at, maybe you call them safe because you didn't see it out. You didn't call it out. Yeah. And NCAA, if you're a coach, you better be careful because if you go out there and ask about a judgment, you know, did it happen before or after the ball got there. Right. In my judgment, if you ask that the first time you get a warning, the second time you get to watch from the parking lot. Really? Yeah. It's not allowed to, not allowed to question judgment calls, strike ball, fair foul timing of a play. But you can certainly ask for, hey, were you blocked on that? Maybe your partner had a better angle or maybe, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Like you, I do talk about this briefly at my play meeting of what I expect of the procedure. And that is one of the things I talk about is, hey, if there is a question of something that is appealable about the play, some aspect of the play, we will get together and discuss if he has more information. If you are questioning judgment, judgment calls are not appealable. I will not be going to my partner to ask if that was a strike or a ball or anything else. Yeah. And then when I work single man, I say, you know, if you get time and you ask me about it, the only thing you can come to me with is on a rules interpretation. You could say, I don't feel like you awarded the penalty basis correctly based on the ball thrown ball thrown out of a play or something, because if you're going to ask me to get any other information, I have all of the information at this point. I can't. I'm always going to agree with myself, you know, I don't have anything else for you there. And I would look terrible if just, he comes out and I think about it and I think about it, I think about it. And they're, well, there was a pulled foot. I don't know, but you know, when you call that, then it looks like the coach talked to you out of your call. Right. I feel like in that case, you set the file that in your head and go, I made that call too quickly without ensuring that I had ball and glove foot on base run or not there yet. I agree. I agree. I think you have to stick with it at that point. Yeah, I got it. It's almost like calling a strike a ball, you know, and you just go ball and you know, crap, I meant strike, but you can't change it now, you know, you just, and should you make that up? No. No, there are no make-ups. Yeah, there's no make-ups. So you'll hear coaches say it all the time, well, that was a make-up call. It's like, no, not from us, anyway, I'm not going to make any of them up. I did get some really good advice, or I believe sage advice from a veteran umpire about when a coach comes to ask questions or wants to come talk to you on the field. And it's as the coach approaches, you know, your side talk, of course, you know, so you're going to get sideways to them a little bit. You're not going to let them get face-to-face with you, you know, up in your face and that kind of stuff. It's kind of side talk. I kind of nod to my nod and my head a little bit, make sure that they can see my ear, you know, so you're talking into my ear, and I will say, do you have a question for me, coach? And wait for the question. And sometimes, depending on the question and depending on the coach, they can be aggressive, especially some of the summer coaches, the 12-U coaches, because you know, all the college coaches are out there looking at their kid to go play in Division 1, school in the SEC. And they'll just come out mad about something. Well, she beat her to the base. Do you have a question for me, coach? Well, she got there long before the other. Thanks for coming out, coach. I'm just going to head back over to your spot there, because you don't ask me any questions here, so let's get on with play. Yep. Absolutely. All right. That is all we have for you this week. So until the next time. Thanks for listening.