[Music] Hello and welcome to the Doyan, a podcast for, by and about women, trans and non-binary artists over 40. In this podcast we speak with an interview creative people of all stripes from all over the country and the world and talk to them about their work, their lives and what makes them tick. I'm your host J.T. Newman and Arts and Culture writer and creator living and working in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Our guest today is Rose Freeman, an award-winning stage director, teacher, writer and producer of theater and opera. Z has directed many plays in environmental events for less gags, nationally touring hip-hop concerts, new musicals and operas. Rose is the director of the opera program at Roosevelt University in Chicago. All right, hello, Rose. How are you? I am doing so well. How are you? I'm really good. It's so good to actually finally meet you. We have been kind of social media friends for the last year. Yeah, and I think we've been in a lot of the same circles. We've been in the vend diagram of all those different performance arts. We've been in many of those circles and we've yet to figure out how to get in the middle of those vend diagrams. But you're the kind of person who makes things happen, so you figured it out. So, I love that. I love that so much. Yeah, and the vend diagrams that I'm in are like kind of bizarre and strange and like mixed mixture of like wild things. And so, I love that you're in the same mixture of wild things that like maybe people don't see necessarily fitting together. Yes, absolutely. I think it's very rare you get to meet another person that's a little wild in their eclectic mix of what they consider to be their art. It's nice to talk to somebody where their eyes don't get wide when I start describing all of the things I've been up to in my life. Yeah, yeah, I feel you. So, let's start. Who are you and what do you do? Name, age, discipline, pronouns. The whole thing. My name is Rose Freeman. My pronouns are they them or ZZer. I like to say ZZer, they them if you panic. And I am a director of the stage, mostly opera. Although I have directed lots of fan space work, for less plays, kind of concerts, liturgical services, for lack of a better term. I am also an actor sometimes mostly in Italy. I tour Italy as an actor on occasion. And I'm a writer. I have a musical chance, the snapper I wrote a spicer car that somebody needs to produce in Chicago, please. And we wrote an opera together called For Los Sanas that premiered in opera land, and now is having a very nice international life. And sometimes I write poetry and yell about Gase dev. I'm also a teacher on the program head. I'm also a professor. I'm the head of the opera program at Roosevelt University. I love that for you. That's new, right? Yeah, that's brand new. This is my first year teaching as a full-time professor. Yay, it's one of the hardest things I've ever done and I've been divorced twice. So, we're doing great. That's awesome. We have that in common too. That's lovely. Yeah, the divorce club is the only club I really trust. The divorce two times. Two times. Two times off that. Two-time winner. Yeah. I decided I'm never getting married again. So I don't think my friends and family will allow it. I meet a new partner and they meet my friends and they're like, you know Rose can't get married again, right? Like, we don't have it in us. All right. Can you walk me through how those different threads developed in your life and career? Yeah, we're going to go all the way back to like my childhood, like, infancy. I spent my early childhood in communion with the Wheaton-Franciscan nuns. Yeah, so we're going all the way back. Like, how I learned how to walk. I spent my childhood. My godmother was the mother superior of the Wheaton-Franciscans for a while and the founders of the Castine Center in Northern Wisconsin, the server-genie-marie. And she also, you know, traveled the world meditating and teaching and praying and she was a mystic as well, like Catholic nun. And I wanted to be one as well, but I was a bit wild. And when, you know, at the same time my mom wanted to raise really cultured children. So she took us to the Afro when we were like five years old and sat as, you know, front and center and gave us a chocolate every time the curtain went down if we were good. So I have a very Pavlovian response to opera as a place where I could have big feelings in a home where I could not have big feelings, you know, because one of those kind of households. And so when I was a teenager and I, you know, been visiting my godmother at this point now, she was in Arizona meditating at a mountain. I came back to my Catholic school, even though my parents were Catholic. My mom's a unitarian. And I was like, I want to be an un. But I'd already come out of the closet as gay. And they were like, that seems like a bad idea. You're called to the single life. And I was like screaming. So I went, I joined the Unitarian Fellowship much to my mother's delight. And I realized, because I was also a theater kid, that theater and all those prayers services I loved organizing after I got kicked out of campus ministry were the same thing. You know, it was people kind of together to tell stories and breathe together. And that's what I actually cared about was communion. And so I very last minute decided to go to Columbia College, Chicago to learn how to be a director and a producer. And I changed my minor from theater management to playwriting because I couldn't pass accounting. I became part of the inaugural playwriting program at Columbia College. And then I went from there. I always loved opera. And I remember I kept telling my professors, Sheldon Patek. And I wanted to be an opera director. And he was like, let's walk before you could run, kid. Like, you can't even use it. And then through a series of strange events involving Burlesque and an opera singer who was taking a Burlesque class from my ex-wife, I ended up in an opera working on an opera that was like staging Armita as a Burlesque show. And I fell in love with opera singers. It just absolutely fell in love. You know, I've always loved icons and divas. I had a Blessed Virgin Mary thing for a long time where I used to collect that iconography. I love Burlesque dancers and strippers. I just think they're iconic human beings and operatives or iconic human beings. And they work so hard and they're so diligent and so brilliant and create a limpy in feats. And I said, I want to be with these people. I want to I want to create rooms where these people can shimmer and shine and be the dragons that they are. And I've kind of dedicated my life to not being a dragon tamer, but a dragon keeper, a dragon spaceholder. Kind of since then. And that's the Dven diagram. That's where we've hit. That's wonderful. See you're not a singer. No. I'm one of those, it's the great joke about the whole thing is like, I almost failed music theory. I'm almost modeling, like I speak Italian like a dog. I can kind of read German. I'm terrified of French. I'm currently directing a French opera. You know, I can read music now. It's a figure out like I can follow along. But no, I'm not a singer. Everything I know about singing is believing singers. Everything I know about language is my ability to understand story and dyslexia being really useful in teaching you three-dimensional context goals. It's interesting. Yeah. It's so funny because I'm a dance fundraiser and dance writer who doesn't dance. Like somewhere in the first minute, I produced for a dance company. My first job out of undergrad, I had to be the production manager for Cirqueur of Air at Dance Theatre. And yeah, but keeping is part of that. And if we remember, I failed accounting twice. Not the best fit. You don't have to do the thing to love the people that do it and respect that. Correct. Yeah, I feel that. I feel that. So you've done a lot of work as an advocate and thought leader in the opera space. And I know for my personal experience that, you know, it's not the most open in terms of gender and sexuality. Even though, you know, gay men opera kind of like fish and water, but, you know, in general, like anybody outside of that sort of construction, not so much, right? We call it the Lavardermafia for a reason, right? But, you know, it's also incredibly culturally, right? Because opera is a patronage culture, right? Like the first opera was performed at the Medici family's wedding, right? We're wedding singers. Like that's actually what this job is. And it really, it's not a populist industry, right? It's somebody funds this because they want to see it. We're not basing our fundraising on ticket sales, not that I think you should do that anyway. So in some ways, it is more conservative because the money comes from a more traditional place. That said, in a lot of ways, it's a lot more experience.
and liberal and socially forward because we don't have to play to the common denominator or the economic model, right? Like we don't have to make sure that everyone's gonna love it. We can do weird shit. And also like there's a huge tradition of gender non-conformity in operatic performance, right? Like the pants roll is a thing, right? Like Carabino is played by somebody who has a metzo or a soprano, like a metzo soprano, right? Like that's that is normally played by a woman in drag and we're just like yep, that's a 14 year old boy. Why are you worrying about it? Right and of course you have room to play in that right like mess and a's Sondrian the prince can be played by a tenor or a mess up right like it can be played as a pants roll And if you really want to lean into that you can have a very gay Sondrian really fast And he doesn't have a gay Cinderella So how did your work as an advocate and a thought leader begin was there a particular moment that pushed you into that kind of public voice? No like many things in my life. I Stumbled into it. I didn't I just didn't know better. I didn't know that these were problems because I came from theater into opera and I came into opera on a very avant garde level And like a you know, we call it storefront opera here in Chicago now named after storefront theater The Green Chamber opera right so it was just like a group of singers that wanted to make work together and you know Scrapped together some money. So I just didn't know that there were traditions and things that needed to be and rigidity in it and I Didn't know that what I was doing was Considered unique or special or interesting. I was just making work and just running my mouth which always gets me into a little bit of trouble You know, it's it's it's it's weird because you spend so much time accidentally being an advocate and being like that doesn't seem right We should do things a different way and then you end up kind of in the industry and you're like if I lived long enough to be the Is that what's happened? How do you balance that being inside the industry with also critiquing it publicly? I don't know man. Not well, right? You know, it's it's it depends on on where you are in it right because you want to get in there so you can actually make Spaces safer and then you also have to be like hey guys. That's inappropriate, right? I think it also depends on who you're talking to right? You know you get me at the conference and I'm ranting all over the place causing mischief, you know I think mischief is so important in this industry, right? We play for a living right? We create communal work for a living it has to be Her focused one of my partners, you know, we she stage managers and so we work together as often as we can and She was laughing about her one day she walked into me in her middle of her soul and I was all by myself She goes okay, and I go yeah, I'm just trying to direct from a human first perspective and today that seems really hard Great See you know you do it. You just trying to maintain your humanity and you do speak truth to power Fortunately, you know, I really run that line between dumb and brave, you know, I ride that line really hard because sometimes I'm not being brave I'm being ignorant like I just don't know any better and I'm asking for things to be better because it's just what needs to happen And other times I do know that it's gonna be a problem and I'm scared right first step of bravery is fear The ones who just need it so sometimes your brave sometimes you're dumb and sometimes You check it out and you fail yourself and then you gotta go try again Mm-hmm has speaking out ever cost you opportunities or open unexpected doors You know, it's really hard to say because no one's gonna come up to you and be like hey you're reaching feminists non-binary Weirdo that's gonna scare the crap out of my board. I'm not hiring you Like of course, right. It's it's it's so tricky when you know You might be losing opportunities or when like culture changes, you know when when The second Trump election happened I was in talks for several projects and they all kind of fizzled out for various reasons and I Don't want to accuse any of these people of that happening, but I may have become a less appealing choice In some of those ways and I think I became a more appealing choice to some other people who were pretty angry, right? But it wasn't lost on me that you know 2025 I worked less than I'd ever worked I made amazing work and where I did work were places I was incredibly proud and pleased to be But there was some you know there was some opportunities that just kind of didn't pan out and Who knows why right? I mean shut out to the people that did because I also worked in like Idaho and Florida, right like crazy That's cool. No, shout out to the companies that were like yeah get rose in here. It's fine, you know So it's it's really hard to say what gives you an opportunity and doesn't give you an opportunity because no one's gonna admit it The reality of it is is I think on a national level I might be the only non-binary opera stage director in the United States like on a national level. I do know that in Chicago. We like like You know Thompson Street is headed by not binary person and they stage direct and I'm sure there's another one But could you please come out and become my friend because it is Stowe lonely and I would love to hold hands with somebody as I walked into whatever bathroom we choose at Afro America Right lots of that's great There's something but staging directors, right like the one that's up there being like yeah, we're gonna put everybody in Weird costumes. Let's go like where's that guy? I'm sure there will be more. I'd like to stop being the only one Yeah, that feels real So pivoting a little bit you write and communicate about opera and the arts for broad audiences What feels important to you about making opera legible or accessible to people? I mean operas a Language of big feeling right and it's it's a language of sensuality right one of my favorite not to be the biggest lesbian possible on a podcast, but that is my greatest Audrey Lorde here we go there. I did it Here we are Audrey Lorde has a really beautiful essay called uses of the Arabic and in this essay she describes massaging the die-pack into Marjorin and I often think about that's how I want my operative feel it should be felt on a visceral physical level, right? to sing is an act of sensuality your body is an instrument right and that is such a powerful way of telling story and creating ritual and Every piece I do I want my audience to come in and breathe with us and feel with us and Walk away with whatever they want to walk away with but of having experienced something in communion and so yeah, that's accessibility I think that's the essential crux of what it is to be a human in society Is to breathe together and to recognize our sensuality like our human is our body and what that is so accessibility. Yeah, it's more so about Just coming and being together and experiencing something or hating it right? I've had a few pieces where people are like this Rose what was that? You know, and I've also gone too far. I created a piece of a play that was immersive about MLM cults and it caused panic attacks in the audience We thought we'd made a dark comedy We Too close to the sun. Do you have a background in performance at all of any kind? No, the first time I ever I mean like I you know my ham. I'm a you know I'm a Leo cancer cancer. Those are my big three You know, I created circuses in the backyard as a little kid and like did theater in high school But the first time we performed as an adult was in my 30s and Because John Wilson he's a Chicago area director called me up Said I changed the gender of the character so you can play it it's a brand new play you have to do it and that really Pet the Leo ego in a way where I was like fine. I'll try it, you know I walk in like I think I'm scared of memorizing lines and these are all hard-season Chicago actors and they're like shut up It's gonna be a little easier. Just keep going just keep doing it You got it you got it Yeah, the Tribune actually accused me of lying because I insisted on putting in my bio that it was my first time acting as an adult and The reviewer of the Tribune was like no way. It was like well. That's a high compliment I guess I mean that's kind of epic. Yeah And then you know, I did some storytelling mostly because I was directing a piece in a singer Caroline Shaw Was like having a frustrating moment. She looked at me. She's like you don't know what it's like You just don't know what it's like to go out there believe So open and just have people stare at you and you're supposed to do something you just don't know Rose And I was like man girls right. I don't know what it's like And so I went and did some storytelling cuz that was what I was able to do and then I got tapped to do a play in Italy But this like that's my entire resume as an actor like we go to Italy sometimes and call
God trans in a play like that's. I mean, I think your tagline could be huge in Italy, maybe. I mean, I didn't get a good review there. So I do sometimes joke that I'm a critically acclaimed actor in Italy. I know where else. That's amazing. That's amazing. Do you think if you're writing an advocacy as a kind of performance? My writing and advocacy is a type of performance. Yeah, I think, I think a lot of times, you know, when you go on, when you go into a conference and you say, Hey, we can take away the patriarchal hierarchy of the rehearsal room. You are performing because you are fighting for a new way of looking at creating performance. And you're convincing a lot of people who are very dedicated to a way of doing things. And, you know, they also were advocates in their own right. Right. But, you know, as I've gotten older, I have become so much more empathetic for the people that came before me and are still out there working and growing and learning. I'm staring at them like, Hey, what you do is actually a patriarchal and harmful, right? That's what I'm doing. And you have to be able to sell that and perform that in a way, right? And they don't want to do that, right? They thought the man, they just lived long enough to be the villain. Right. They were the ones that were getting persecuted and harmed, right? And we're at the forefront of the lot, able to get in the door and change things, right? And then, you know, some codgeal bite comes saddled up next to them. And it's like, Hey, I want you to think about this in terms of gender now. You're like, come on, man. Like, right. So yeah, you got to perform in that way writing. I don't know. I think when I go up there, I have not performed any of my own writing or done any storytelling in the last two years. And it's mostly because of the vocal changes from testosterone. Right. I started T and I started squeaking pretty fast. And I'm not comfortable in my vocal control right now to go out there and probably just get over it and do it anyway or take another voice lesson and learn how to get a better handle on how to do vocal work and have that breath control and modulation. But whoo, we, when your vocal chords change that fast. It's and I'm also, you know, I'm a little weirded out by how my voice sounds now. Right. I'm just getting used to it. I'm just like, Oh, wow. That's the sound I make now. Interesting. About that reads differently in a room. I've lost the like the ability to code as maternal and femme. Mm-hmm. And that's been something where I literally have just been like, I'm not mad. I'm just on testosterone and I can't change the tone of my voice very easily. And I'm tired. Yeah. I've lost the ability to use that kind of, Hey, it's okay. Like we're explaining things gently. So now I suspect for some people it feels like dad's angry. Yeah, that is the thing I don't think about. But I probably do that a lot, you know, raise my voice like without even thinking about it when I'm in a room with someone and, you know, wanting them to feel comfortable with me. Oh, 100%. I think anyone who was raised in Western society to become a woman has learned how to font. It's dangerous out there. I think, and I think it was, you know, talked to us as a way to protect us. And it was reinforced in a lot of ways. It's interesting because now sometimes I read as a man, right? And I've been gender nonconforming my entire adult life. I've always read as a, we aren't sure what that is. I'm attracted to it. Was that me? I'm okay. You know, I, I used to always say, well, what if my gender wasn't man or woman? What if it was just lesbian? Yeah. Yeah, I'm hitting a point now where sometimes I just read as a man. Yeah. What? Right. And I think sometimes I'm reading as a cis man on occasion. In fact, on the way here on the train, there was a guy that was like, Hey, brother, I like your ring tops. La la la la la. I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm going on this podcast. I'm going to talk about being done binary. And it was like so thrown. This nice dress gentleman wasn't what he thought it was. That's so funny. Yeah. And it was kind of one of the first, it was one of the, it's, it's, yeah, that's started happening recently. I'm like, Oh, interesting. Okay. Okay. I'm read in the world differently than I'm used to being read in the world. Does that feel affirming or does it feel strange? I think it's both. Yeah. And I think it can be both, right? Because I, you know, I mean, I love women and non binary people, right? As a culture, it's where I was raised. It's where I grew up. It's, it don't get me wrong. I love men like some of my best friends are men. My brother's a man, you know. But it's not something I spend a lot of my, that, that is not a group of humans I spend my, a lot of my day to day with or my own life with. So being read in public as, as one of them is, is a little unusual and a little confusing sometimes for me. And sometimes it also feels good because you know what? I am handsome and, you know, and I'll be real with you. It's really nice that when I say something or cough, everybody listens. Uh-huh. But sometimes it's weird. I remember like I was in a meeting and people let me finish my sentence. And I was like, I don't actually know how to finish sentences and meetings. I've gotten so used to front loading the information. I started like traveling a little bit because I just wasn't used to being let allowed to talk. Uh-huh. And I'm, let's general, yeah, right? Like it's, it's, I didn't understand how much I was navigating patriarchy until I was starting to be read as part of it. Hmm. Hmm. And that's been angry all over again. It's like, oh man. Yeah. dismantling the patriarchy in my own life has been ongoing. And it's like really wild to me how much like I still am undoing. Oh, and I think you constantly do it. And now that I like, I'm being, you know, under the threat of death on occasion, given some privileges of manhood, right? It's, I am also now having to clock when I'm using them before when I read more as a woman, right? It was, they were like, good for you Rose. Go get them, right? Was that when I was being aggressive. And now when I'm being more aggressive, people get more scared of it. Right? So I'm also having to adjust my own outward behavior. So I don't perpetuate the patriarchy. You know, how do I use the suit jacket and tie for good? I guess is the question. Operating question. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, I mean, it goes back to like, how do we advocate for a better industry while also operating in the industry? Right. It's knowing what that push pull is, right? And I think I found for me a lot, people are like, Rose, you're this huge advocate. And, um, you know, changemaker. And I'm like, I'm just here. I think it's just weird that I showed up. Like I think that's what's weird is that I showed up. But the reality of it is that there's a lot of us. I just don't know when to shut my mouth. As someone over 40, how has your perspective on your career shifted in terms of ambition and your definition of success? I have simultaneously become so much more ambitious and so much more relaxed. I am a big believer in the practice of looking back and talking to past you. Right. You know, there was this moment where I was in a street corner. It was about three years ago. My friend Severio calls me and he goes, you know, chow rows, we're going to Milan. We might perform there. Is that okay? Oh, yeah. That's fun. And I had to, like, I hung up the phone and I was standing on a street corner that I had stood on when I was 18 years old, you know, at this moment. And I stood on that street corner at 18. You know, I was in Chicago that weekend working. And I was like, Hey, 18 year old Rose, you don't win a Jeff award, but you perform in Milan. So like I think it's going to be okay, buddy. Like there's, there's an element of like, your dreams don't come true because you, you're too ignorant to know how beautiful it could actually become if you allow it to. Like I've become so much more open to opportunity and the twists and turns that life is complicated. And that's been really beautiful. I've also realized that there are no rules. There's just consequences. And I have a giant chosen family. And a lot of that chosen family comes from my work in the arts because my work in the arts is spiritual and nature. And I'm really not good at making money because I work in the arts. I've just kind of resigned myself to being poor and not caring. And if I can make enough money to make my rent and feed myself fine, I'll figure out my retirement plan later, which scares the crap out of the older people in my life. And they're trying to warn me about something, but I just don't know what else to do. You know, I didn't know anybody that was like me at my age. So I'm kind of operating without a script. In other ways. And it is simultaneously.
incredibly freeing and incredibly scary because of the era we're living in and who we are. And we're all doing what we got to do to make it a little better. Yeah, I mean, I'm in the same boat. I was laid off from the large performing arts organization that I came to Philadelphia to be a part of. And now I'm trying to scrabble together a bunch of freelance work and launch this podcast and newsletter and try to find community with folks over 40 and it's been a little scary. Yeah, it's super scary and it's also, you know, people over 40, right? I think we're a generation where it's not as true, but there's, you know, you're busy at 40, right? You're in the middle of your career. A lot of people are busy raising children and doing end of life or elder care for their parents. Most of my friends are juggling between one and three of those items, right? And then that's part of the community, right? And it's, we're also in a society where communal care has not been encouraged. You know, the lie of the nuclear family has been really slammed upon us. And for a lot of women, that has had pretty serious consequences as far as available time. And, you know, what they're able to do, you know, if you're so busy raising the children, having a job and taking care of your parents, you no longer have time for community. You no longer have time to pursue existential questions, right? Right. And so it's like, how do we build that community, right? And that has been a big part of the last few years of my life because I was up until this job. I was freelance. I was wondering the year unemployed making work, like I was, I was freelance. And so I had this kind of giant pockets of downtime. And I could actually have community and participate in my nieces and nest views, lives, you know, my life. I could, I could participate in my chosen family's lives in very radical care focused ways, where, which was such a gift and continuing to do that, we're also running an opera program. It has been an interesting shift, but also full one. And it's also like paid off right now. I have that community is even more solid and founded and really are there for each other in a way that I think we, that is how we're going to survive. And that's how we're going to keep making work. Yeah. What does sustainability look like for you now in terms of voice, body, economics, overall creative life? It's community. I mean, the last year, the last year really rocked my entire worldview. I kind of spent the last year living like there was no tomorrow, you know, where I was just making work, partying, building community, living my life, mulching my mother's entire two acres garden. I did. I just, I had a little breakdown in the woods in the mountains of Connecticut. And a lot of things and a lot of shoveling. I had a very serious breakdown and like pulled like, I don't know, probably a half a block s worth of IV out of a garden in Evanston. That's an excellent choice. That's an excellent activity. Nothing like some gardening, some aggressive gardening. I got so strong. Yeah, same. I look great. I feel great. You know, but you know, I kind of kept living like there was no tomorrow, but the consequence of that is my community got really, really strong. And I think it goes back to community. I will always be a ranting about community and what that looks like and how do we build that on individual levels? Because I think that is, you know, I always say that queerness will save the world. And I think queerness saves the world because it teaches us a few things. One, how to find family because very rarely are you born into queerness, right? My God son has lesbian parents. So like he will be raised culturally queer, right? That doesn't mean he will be queer, right? But he will be raised that way. Most of us are born from straight people and we have to find our family. We have to find our culture, which teaches us how to be intentional about community and gives us a form of radical compassion around loneliness and survival. And truly teaches us how to live without the blueprint and how to draw our own blueprints for what actually works for us. And I think that is going to be the key to sustainability. If it's the key to my sustainability, I don't know. My dream is that the end is swift and thorough. And who knows, maybe I'll be ranting at 12 last-stoppersingers one last time. I just have to go to the count and my poor friends are left in charge with my body. Right? I'm just going to keep doing it. Right. And stretching. I stretch a lot. And then laugh at my doctor when he does my blood work and then looks at my lifestyle and can't figure out why my blood work is okay. And keep taking my test asterum. I'm taking my hormones. You know, the real reason I started T was, yes, I was gender non-conforming and going by they them and blah, blah, blah, but I started going through early paramedics and they screened for depression. They checked all these things and then they finally were like, let's check your heart. They checked my thyroid and I was just like, I'm so sad and everything hurts and my fibromyalgia is out of control. And I haven't had a period in a year. They checked my hormones and they were like, oh, everything's fine. But at one point in my life, I had tried to have a baby and I'd done my preliminary hormone level check and thank God I did that because I had high testosterone then. And when they checked it, when I was in my late 30s, they were like, everything's normal. And I was like, yeah, including the testosterone. That's dropped significantly. And they were like, oh, you're going through paramedics. And it was like, cool, what do we do about this? Because I'm not going to live like this. And they were like, you could go on birth control and I made a face. And I was like, no, I don't want that. That sounds like, and God bless you. She kind of looks back down at my chart, checks my pronouns and goes forward test us to room and I go, yeah, that, that's what I want. Like, hit me like a ton of bricks. And the way my body has, it loves it. The way my body and brain are so much better, getting the actual hormone levels I need. Basic. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I hear that they're recommending testosterone for women in paramedics now. Yeah, it's a way to balance. Yeah. I, get your hormones, the way you want your hormones. If you're over 40, just do it. Just do it. We got to live in this modern era. And this whole nonsense about like, well, we don't know, truly make it. Yeah, yeah, we don't naturally make bread, you know, we don't do dishes. But that is delicious. Yeah. Like, if I have to put up with the consequences of society, I'm going to get some testosterone in it when I'm in menopause. Like that's what I'm getting at. That's why I put up with you people. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking with a goat somewhere hanging out. Funny. On the mountain side, mulching it more. Mulching the mother's garden. What do you think is still missing from the opera world when it comes to supporting women, trans and non-binary folks over 40? What is missing? Yo, that's, I mean, we're working towards it, right? Like, I think I'm so in the weeds right now that it's like any change is, could change, right? Is we're working fundamentally going forward. I think we need to do a better job of economic accessibility in studying this art form. I think we need to figure out childcare. I don't think that's something that really is taken into account. And it's something that actually used to be taken into account and no longer is because the economics of how, like, it's not lost on me that in a lot of these mid-level companies, a lot of women have been given the job right as the companies, of leading the companies. Right as the companies were about to take. Right. You know, it sometimes feel like the toy broke. They handed it to a four-year-old woman to fix it. Yeah. Yeah, they called in the last day and then the straight lady and they were like, please help. And now she's left kind of holding the bag and trying to figure out how to get everyone out of the hole, right? But also we've had to like really tighten the proverbial belts. And so like, directors fees have not gone up in years, right? They've gone down. And also a lot of women are now directors. I'm not saying it's intentional, but I am saying that a lot of fields that used to mostly have men as their employees used to pay better. And this might also be one of those. Yeah. Right. Like, sometimes we participate in trends, not fully realizing why it happened in the first place. And I think if like, we're just trying to get the job, right? I think this is an old consequence, right? Like, we were just trying to get the job and we were just happy to be in the room. Right. So we wouldn't take a lower range because the people were less likely to take a chance on us.
And now that there's more of us and they're likely to take a chance, well, do you see that? The wage dropped. Right. Right. I don't think it's always economics and support and community care within an industry are not cut and dry. In the same way, we can't prove that there's been discrimination because, you know, so much of it goes unsaid. Right. Interesting. Look at what's, look at the white on the page, right? Like look what's not being said or what's not being done. I also would like to, you know, there's, I look at like training programs like mine and it's mostly women and non-binary people in my program. Right. I think that's actually just the future of this industry. I think opera's super gay. On super feminist, right? And I think it's going to be the reality of who's going to make this stuff in the, and so just, you know, hand it over and let them run. Interesting. I love it. What advice would you give to someone who's a woman trans non-binary person over 40 who feels like their voice has been silenced and they're trying to claim space artistically, intellectually or publicly? Why do you feel you've been silenced? Why have you been able to talk? Grab the microphone and start talking. Sometimes we just have to take the mic. Also, what are you actually trying to say? Where do you want to go with this? Like, know what you're trying to say. And I think a lot of times you're being self silencing, right? Not to put the onus back on women and non-binary people and trans people in both sides of the table, but we are raised to not talk. We are raised to code, right? When, you know, to code switch and then we are literally rettened with violence in very subversive ways, right? And when people are like, I'm in front of anybody with violence. No, but societally, that is how we aren't dumb. I'm not dumb. I know when I'm in danger. I've lost every bar fight I've ever had. Why have I gotten in barfights? You know, I'm just a nice lesbian. It's, you know, it's that that's quiet threat of violence, right? So, you know, why are you being quiet? Know that and then make your choices and, you know, make them because like, they're kind of trying to kill you anyway. And we know that right over 40, right? Like the the right, the effort to take women, specifically cis women and make them invisible and desexualize them, right? Is such, I mean, I see it happen all the time to my friends and family. We're like, these women who were considered so powerful or suddenly like, they're there, grandma, right? Yeah. No. No. No. No. They're the reason we're standing there, right? Also, we're hot. I'm the hottest I've ever been. I feel the same way. Right? Funny. All right. If you wanted, if you wanted folks to take away one thing about you and your career from this podcast, what would that be? Students said this to me recently. And I think like, yep, that is me. Utilize your free will more and have fun. Right? Like, it's also serious and so hard, but just go have, but go dancing. Make work together. Make art. There are no rules. Just consequences. You can follow along for new episodes behind the scenes updates and more conversations that center experience artistry and evolution on
[email protected]. Thank you to Rose Freeman. You can find Rose online at rosefreement.org and also at all the social media channels in our show notes. Our theme music is Carefree Morning by Rebecca Mardal, licensed via epidemic sound. Until next time, keep making, keep becoming, and never let anyone convince you that your most powerful work is behind you. This is the doyan. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Lib Sin ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience and their favorite podcasts with Lib Sin ads. Go to LibSin ads.com. That's L-I-B-S-Y-N ads.com today.
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