Episode 7: Emotions and Nursing

[Music] Hello, this is Pascaring, a podcast from the Librean Archive at the Royal College of Nursing, the RCN. I'm Francis Reed and our aim is to shout loudly about the incredible and essential work that nurses do now and throughout the centuries. So this is a podcast that uses history to understand how we think about health and care today. [Music] In this episode we're going to be talking and thinking about emotions in nursing and I'm really lucky to have Dr Sarah Cheney with me now and throughout the podcast. Sarah is a historian who's written and saw a lot about emotions in nursing. Her most recent book is called "Am I Normal" and she also works at the Royal College of Nursing, Library and Archive as events and exhibitions manager. Sarah, thank you very much for taking part in this podcast with us. Hello, thanks very much for having me. So I've got a big question to start with which might seem like a strange one. What is an emotion? Well, it's a very complicated question and something that psychologists and philosophers and other thinkers have argued about over the years. And still can't necessarily agree on. So emotions are strange because there's something, it feels like something very private that we have but there are also something that we talk about and that we think we share. We have a lot of words to name different kinds of emotions. One famous psychologist who thought a lot about emotions was William James and in the 1880s he wrote that emotions were physiological reactions. So his view was that we don't cry because we're sad but we have the reaction first and then we have the feeling. So we cry and then we are sad. So in James's view all of these things start as physiological reactions. But again that's very difficult to categorise. We know the feeling through the experience that we have of them and how we name them. But we don't necessarily notice whether we might have a physiological change first or whether we always have a physiological change or whether we just feel slightly differently. And we all then might have slightly different experiences of that emotion as well shaped by what's going on around us. So you touched on some 19th century ideas about emotion there. So what does history have to do with emotions? Well I think one of the most interesting things about looking at emotions through history is that we can see that they're not universal, that they change all the time. They change depending on the context, depending on people's expectations of them. People use different words to describe different experiences. Of course that's true across cultures as well. So some languages don't have words for emotions that are described in another language. But then they might have lots of different words for something that's only one word in another language. And that shapes the experiences that we have of them as well. So the way we understand emotions and interpret them actually then goes back in and shapes the experience that we have. And I think today many psychologists writing about emotions will see them as this kind of complex interplay between the context and our understanding. And then this kind of intangible thing that is a feeling. So nursing is a profession that is very wrapped up in emotions. What emotions are we talking about when we look at nursing? Whose emotions, what kind of emotions are important to think about when it comes to the nursing profession? Yeah and I guess when we first think about emotions in nursing, the immediate thing that springs to mind might be the emotions of the individual nurse, what they are feeling at any given point. But when we look back through the history of nursing, we can see that there is a very often changing expectations in what nurses ought to be feeling and what emotions are viewed to be central to nursing. And these are not necessarily the same as what an individual is feeling at any particular time. So we have on the one hand this particular but changing set of ideas around nursing from things like faith, love and fortitude in the early 20th century. And then a more recent idea of compassion in nursing. But of course the experience of a nurse and of anyone working in healthcare will actually be a huge range of different emotional traits that are not necessarily the same as the expectations. Thank you Sarah. We'll come back to you later in the podcast. One of the projects that I worked with Sarah on at the RCN was around the stained glass windows in Caldray Hall here at HQ. The original windows were created by John Dudley Forsyth in the early 20th century to depict what was considered the ideal traits of a nurse at that time, as you mentioned Sarah, faith, fortitude and love. In 2019 and 2020, we ran a project with the artist Rachel Mulligan to create a new stained glass triptych for the 21st century. Nurses from across the country took part in discussions about what nursing means now, trying to settle on new words to describe ideal traits or emotions. They made pieces of stained glass during on historical images of nursing and many of these were incorporated into the final windows which are still on display here at HQ. I talked to Rachel Mulligan and one of the participants, off from a flahi, about their experiences. I began by asking Rachel to describe the original stained glass windows. Well the first thing to say is they're very colourful and bright. They have cherubs in each one representing each of the words and they're surrounded by a garland of flowers. There's some fruit in there, there's some birds. They're very classic in feel that cherubs are on a plinth. The writing is chiseled into the plinth and when I first saw them they didn't say a great deal to me about nursing. They seem to be quite generic in their treatment of it but very beautiful, very colourful. They were made by John Dudley Fawcife in the 1920s who designed for stained glass. There is something significant isn't there about this method of stained glass and I think most people would associate it with churches. So it's got that very religious association, hasn't it? Which of course nursing does in its history as well. Is that right Rachel? Yes traditionally stained glass has obviously come out of a religious context but it's also used a lot in domestic settings and in public buildings which this was obviously a public building. I suppose it gives the building a bit of gravitas and a bit of anchoring in history. Well they're in that main hall which is already quite an impressive building isn't it? They're looking good company in that quite grand main hall there. So one of the big things that we talked about in the workshops that you took part in were these three words, faith, fortitude and love. What they meant to nurses now if they made sense, if they're completely out of date. It was interesting that there were mixed views on it and I wonder what you feel about those words today? For me nursing is about the desire to care and to do well and to be better really. For me that is firmly embedded in faith and love and fortitude. I was thinking about the word faith and certainly for me as a nurse it's not just seeing it through the lens of your profession but also seeing it through the lens of you personally. So in my culture the word faith translated is Iman and that's about the translation, the literal translation is about affirmation and you do a lot of that in nursing in your day-to-day work you have to have faith. So it does translate out in practice so that kind of resonated with me in many ways and the word associated with faith. One of the initial ideas was that we might be able to come up with new words to represent contemporary nursing or modern nursing and words that made sense to nurses working today. And unsurprisingly that turned into an impossible task and we couldn't decide on three words for nursing now. So yeah, I'm wondering how you found that process. I mean the six C's came up a lot didn't they? If you could tell us a little bit about the six C's and yeah a little bit about how you found those conversations about how you describe nursing today. Well yeah that I think the six C's if I remember rightly would instigate it from an NHS strategy back in 2012 if I remember rightly. I think that was as a result of the Robert Francis report where they talked a lot about compassionate care. I think you're right it's very difficult to kind of pin specific words to nursing. I mean for me as a nurse you know compassionate care is a golden thread that you know it's just a given in terms of who you are as a nurse. And compassion or the word compassion or compassionate if you talk about the strategy you know that's 2012 you know we've been nursing for hundreds and hundreds of years and and despite. the different language, you know, some people might call it sympathy, some people might call it being kind, some people might call it empathy. Throughout my nursing career, you know, people will say, "Oh, you're so kind," or, "Oh, you really understand, you know, where I'm coming from." For me, that, you know, in essence, is compassionate care. And more importantly, when you look after someone at their most vulnerable, they will feel the compassion or the love or the strength within you. And I think patients get a sense of that when you're looking after them. Whether that can be taught, I do not know. Certainly, many nurses that I speak to or many healthcare workers that I speak to go into practicing as a nurse because they care and they're kind and they want to do good things for people and do what they're best at. For me, compassionate care or compassion is fundamental to any kind of nursing profession. I think the other, the other seas I've got them written down here were courage, commitment, competence and communication as well as caring and compassion. So they did come up in the conversations as well as words like resilience, knowledge, humanity, professionalism. So there were quite a lot of things that almost too many to fit into three panels. Yeah, so Rachel, how did you approach that then? Because obviously, yeah, all the words you just used were came up again and again. And nursing is such a huge, diverse job that's different every single day, different for different people. And I wonder how you capture something like that in something that's a very fixed medium like a stained-gras window. It seems like almost an impossible task, but that's what you did. So how did you approach that from listening to the nurses and those workshops to turning into something that people can look at? Well, I suppose the first thing was I knew I wanted three panels because of the original thing being three. So from that starting point and having discarded the words as a way forward, I thought about the times that I've encountered nurses and most people would encounter them at the start of life, at the end of life, and somewhere in the middle. So that was my division of the three panels. And then I wanted to reflect as many aspects as I could. So we have a mental health nurse, we have a midwife and a student nurse, and then we have a community setting for the final panel. Incredible how much detail you can get into your stained-glass windows. They're very, they're very narrative driven, looking at your other work. It's very, very narrative storytelling, it's beautiful in so much detail, which I think surprised everyone at how much you could capture in stained glass. Yes, so detail I get with the engraving, the flash glass that I use, which is a particular kind of glass, that you can remove a layer of and have a clear glass underneath, and then painting and using a dip pen with the paint as well. And it was really important, I included as many of the panels made by the nurses as possible so I think there's about 20, 27 or 30 panels included. That's right, they're all around the edge, aren't they? They're all in the borders. So with those trying to include that and also to get the text in, which helps tell the story of nurses. Yeah, in the first panel I included all histories that the RCN had recorded and transcribed. And these were about nurses who came to the UK to work and about their journeys and first coming. And they're all connected with stamps from around the world that I've used in the border. And the detail of the writing, I borrowed a typewriter, an old fashioned typewriter and typed out the text, because I wanted to look like it was a newspaper type recording. And then I traced the type written text with a dip pen. And when it was fired, that formed part of the narrative of the first panel around the edge. It was really interesting because for me, nursing is very much an art because you do so many different things in your day-to-day role in your career. And when I started making the stained glass piece, it was building, you know, there were stages that I had to do it in and it was very intricate. And nursing's a bit like that, you know, it's layers and layers of experience and layers and layers of talking to people and making people feel better. And you can't do that through one single act. And as I was etching, it was so, you know, it was very intricate. You had to be really sensitive, you know, not applying too much pressure. And I remember, you know, seeking schedules that are approval and am I doing it right? Is this the way you should do it? And, you know, really worried about doing it wrong? And I think no seems a bit like that in many ways. And that's how it felt when I was doing the stained glass. Although it was very fun as well. Yeah. I love that analogy you made between the process of making the stained glass and the process of nursing. And off from now, I wonder what you, because obviously they're in the building that you work in occasionally. So when you pass them, I wonder how they make you feel, you know, having been part of it and now you see them on display. Because there's quite a few people I know that do revisit those windows because of the detail, you know, they're looking again at the different kinds of things and using them as a space to reflect really. Yeah, I mean, how they make me feel. It makes pride. I think I'm wonderful. They're absolutely wonderful. And it's strange because you still get that emotional feeling like I was, you know, in Rachel's studio, you know, actually making it. So, um, can you remind me which one? I think you just coupled it. I did the Cypress. It had Cypress. Oh, yes. I remember not nearly going to do the stained glass. And I'm so glad that I did because it's almost like a moment in history. And when it was opened and it was opened by our then general secretary and chief exec, I mean, it was amazing. I mean, there were crowds and crowds of nurses all looking for the bit that they did and having photographs and finger pointing, you know, I did this bit and I did that bit. You know, it's such a different way of capturing what nursing is in such a beautiful way. Ordinarily as a nurse, everything is done in text or dreams and reams of words and actually bringing it to life through stained glass was just an amazing feeling. Off from a flahi and Rachel Mulligan. You're listening to Passcaering, a podcast from the Royal College of Nursing Library and Archive. So Sarah, I remember in those workshops how difficult it was for the participants to come up with specific words to describe how they see nursing, how they see their job. And I wonder the three words, faith, fortitude and love, is that a particular 20th century idea of nursing then? Yeah, to an extent, I think faith and love in particular have a longer history. Faith certainly goes well back into the 19th century where the expectation was that nurses had a religious calling and links to the idea of nursing being a vocation. And then that continued alongside the professional side of nursing well into the 1950s. So we get oral histories of nurses talking about working on wards in the late 1940s and early 1950s and being expected to be church of England, being expected to go to chapels, to do prayers and even to try and convert patients on the wards. And then with love as well. And also has a longer history, particularly linked to ideas of maternal love. So the assumption was that women made good nurses because they were mothers and they would naturally have a particular set of emotions that they could bring to the task. So then that led to the assumption that they didn't need to train any of this, that women could just come in and automatically pick up nursing because it was the same as being a mother in a way. And so did those ideals of emotions for nursing. Did they change over time? Are they still there but they're called different things? What do those, what does faith fortune love look like now if they existed? Well, I think fortune tutors an interesting one in the early 20th century because that was quite new to that period and really emerging yro— email Lou McAllor el Woulda Ysc der— holl ni ganni fi s significantafo nod byddiadau thinnag cael eitaryn sydd ynhir y cukrun syddol bagioedd yn rheilfodol ac mae hynnu hynny i dydwedd eu gydai'r rhywb Zac Chифull a sydd atedd gallu hynny i mi fyddалыg mewn ll gelen ac plations y affinity golод at y cyministerio OL C sufferd yr childiad yn my yn arth holyst wnych a, Barma Raith— wrthy Cassius rei, sydd â neu uIntraeth ffol yn âחdym. 'Swi' bob' yn cynnwyd o golo ond aruit. ìn am'n efon mwy i'n ceecyb jest eift adiffbrach. Mae'r rhizono bod syl redd sy'n don間ren mae un fanai lyfodaeth gy cybercyumufiów'r re special fe i wrth gen Proofo Ryrule Synos mae cynrおre yffordali, peu'r ry labhwyddio ment. 它 Come rad, reithio edw diwedd ' �ofi loglo' i security- godd i qawol mae'r un anyod cre meinen ni wedi procurement o rydyn yn ymwyr i chi'n ei fwy'r rydym yn ei fwy'r rhiziliol. Mae'r rhiziliol yn ymwyr i gynniol ar un ar y rydyn yn cymryd. Mae'r rhiziliol yn ei fwy'r rhiziliol yn amym ei. Mae'r rhiziliol yn un argym wedi'r rhiziliol yn y stif ar y Lyb. Mae'r rhiziliol yn gwybod i gydynniol yn amym yn gwybod i gydynniol yn amym yn amym yn ymwyr i gydynniol. Hwy swy mae'n giyr teidau'i possibly mae cw PL. Mae'n g causa Pys chargiriion mwyn hyn – gydидol yn cael yn ym二rwch. rhw i boeddயurau prenyddiwyth� coping Yn yr sięg naod. N Alice graduated teach o'ch chi'n rwy ce� tî gez will ar ôl a toŷill o fo care iawn working 'whle. N習isodd lle osol gyda fi eiükirmau uhnydiŷ wneud yne? A miencedau ac rwy fyddeutwyrs mewn o i ddu sy ecosystems ac rwy enthere rhwm'n yr vector dydd yn yr christio wrth sydd detr entireensysch i f waysnic eraith yn parod a ni'n cth ewater o ond yn rhwn. Mae ac'n apathlu a gwrsiau période an thea oed bethau lors, uit wide bagig soniaethriedi prepare a bit ffi高u roedd yn hallb— Rest yr incrediblychafnt yn yr mi, mae fod hynnyny'r bresott yn wasləwny. Maeestone ei'r extrafaft. Takud rwyariatraedd â ei conscious, mae boi fatig honi趣y59 a goend wrongatianol gwlogol iawn. It's interesting to hear that, because when you listen to somebody like offer, for example, who gave lots of different words that she feels kind of encompass her nursing work, she used sympathy, empathy, kindness. In a slightly different way to the way that you just described emotions were applied by nurses. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and empathy is another really interesting one, because that was a very new word in the 1920s. It's a 20th century word. And Beatrice Edgel actually mentions that as well, and warns that nurses shouldn't show empathy, because empathy at that time meant kind of entering into somebody else's feelings and experiencing them yourself. So that was dangerous, she thought, for the work of a nurse, because then you make assumptions about the way the other person was feeling, and you'd let your own emotions color what actually happened to them. Interesting. So I want to go back to compassion. So compassion, I think, has been around for a very, very long time, but then only recently been applied in a healthcare setting, or to nursing. Is that right? Yeah, it's interesting, because a lot of the recent uses of the term compassion tend to assume that it's always been prominent in nursing. But when I looked into that, I found that really wasn't the case. So when you look at nursing journals through the 20th century, it's only in the late 1980s that the word starts to creep in. And that's really as part of the idea of practicing patient-centered care. But it's quite rarely mentioned, and it's not really until the 2000s, really after 2010, that the word gets very prominently and repeatedly applied to nursing. So I wonder how our understanding of compassion shapes public perception of nursing. So we're speaking during a week that's seen the first nurses strike across the UK. Nurses have been on the picket line this week because of pay, yes, but also because of the conditions and resources that are or are not available to them to create compassionate environments of care. How does what we know about compassion shape what we think about nurses? Yeah, I've been out supporting some of the pickets, and I remember one in particular seeing a nurse with a placard that had the words angels written on it, crossed out with skilled workers written instead. And of course, the public perception that was played up by the media during the COVID pandemic was that nurses are angels, that are heroes, that they're performing this dedicated care almost as if they don't have to be able to pay the bills in order to do that. And that really brought into this really long running notion of nursing as being a vocation that people, especially women, became nurses because they were naturally had motherly love. They had all of these emotions that made them good nurses and that somehow if they wanted to be paid properly for that, that was detracting from this good nurse that their behaviour showed them to be. So by recognising them as skilled workers, particularly the caring side of nursing, that the emotional work that they're performing is also skilled work that really cuts against that notion which is still very prevalent. And of course, the strikes are not just about pay, they're also about the severe shortages within nursing which creates an environment where so many shifts that people are working in are understaffed, that leads to unsafe conditions and also makes it incredibly difficult for people to perform this compassion. Thank you Sarah, that was really interesting. I talked a little bit more about some of these themes with Dr Jennifer Jackson. Jennifer is based in Canada at the University of Calgary. She's a registered nurse and assistant professor with a clinical practice background in critical care and tons of expertise in nursing work and health systems. We started talking about her article that was titled "Is the Art of Nursing Dying". I think this is especially timely because if anything, the strikes in the UK among nurses are sort of the ultimate response to that article. Now I know the strikes are separate from what we wrote, but it's sort of that idea-comfull circle. Florence Nightingale said that the art of nursing was the ability to create an environment where care can happen and to create a context where care was possible. So for Nightingale, this meant clean air, clean drinking water, clean sheets, healthy food, and this was really the advent of public health, was saying that if we create this environment that is supportive of health, then the nursing work can support the patient in a more direct way. So we saw a lot of evidence of that in her work in the Crimea saying like, "Okay, we need to get the wards cleaned up because more people are dying from infection and poor conditions and they were in the military conflict." And so I fully acknowledge that Florence Nightingale is, there's lots of critiques that we can view about her work in terms of class and race, and I would never say that we should overlook those things. And what I'm arguing is that her vision of the art of nursing and creating an environment where care can happen, that is an important factor that we can still relate to today. What I see is that that ability to create an environment is being squashed. So eight and ten shifts in the UK, the nurses are short-stuffed, they're not able to, you know, get from patient to patient let alone do things that like quality improvement or safety initiatives or things that improve the environment. It's running from one fire to the next and I can understand where nurses feel like they're not doing their best work. And so with our call to action of is the art of nursing dying, we were saying is nursing's ability to create a positive environment for care? Are we losing that ability? And I think the strike is the ultimate response to that to say we're taking that ability back and I couldn't be more pleased. I'm sorry it's come to this, but I'm glad to see that nurses are recognising their political power and using it. I think it's a good time to ask you then about emotional labour because you talk about that a lot in your research into what nurses do and you define emotional labour as this sort of this quite distinct domain of nursing. can you tell us what what we mean when we say emotional labor? What is that? Emotional labor is when nurses use their emotions to create a therapeutic environment. This is from Professor Pam Smith's work. She was the one who really consolidated emotional labor in nursing and what I've done is pick up that idea and place it in context with other kinds of labor. So we have physical labor and this is anything that nurses do with their bodies. So washing folks, feeding people, supporting them to ambulate, doing dressing changes, all these kinds of things. Physical labor is what other people can see. So they understand that that's nursing because you can watch a nurse do much of that work. Now people think that that is the totality of nursing because the other three categories, you can get hints of it but you can't actually watch it happen. We have cognitive labor which is a concept I've created which reflects the mental work of nursing or the mental load of nurses. And then we also have organizational labor which was created by Divina Allen. And that work is all of the things and nurses do to create patients trajectories through this system. So phone calls, filling out paperwork, documentation, chasing up lab results, all of those kinds of things that each in their individual way think, oh, it's just filling out a form. But if that form isn't properly filled out, then someone can't be discharged and they're discharged without all the necessary information and it becomes unsafe and there's this whole knock on effect. So coming to emotional labor, that is where we use our emotions to create a therapeutic environment. Classic example is you're panicking but you stay calm so that the patient does not panic. And this is work. It is a hard thing to do. And we all do emotional labor all the time. So if you've come home from a long day and open the fridge and there's nothing in there because nobody picked up the groceries on the way home because they ran to catch the train instead. And now you have to figure out what you're going to do for supper and you know on and on and on and you might feel like screaming but screaming at your partner isn't the best option at that moment. So you do some emotional labor. So you say, okay, I'm on a screen right now. But instead I am going to say, okay, we're going to get a takeaway. Let's get some dinner. Let's feed the kids and move on. So we all do that all the time. The difference is that it's for a therapeutic purpose and we're paid for it or theoretically we're paid for it. So with emotional, cognitive and organizational labor, you don't see that happening. It's not something that's visible. So therefore my experience is many people don't realize it's happening because they don't see it. So that's where you end up with the idea that nurses go around with the tea trolley and pass out little cups of pills and they're there dear and patch you on the head. And we see this in a lot of professions where it's historically women are the largest groups. So with like air hostess roles, people think they pass out drinks and peanuts and what they actually do is keep us from plummeting to our deaths in an airplane every single time we get on board. So what we found is that the public policy makers, government, everybody expects nursing to do emotional labor. We expect nurses to be caring. I've heard lots of times that physicians can say, oh, he has bad bedside manner, but he's still a good doctor. You know, always a good surgeon. But I have never once heard anybody say that nurse has a bad bedside manner, but they're still a good nurse. I should also say I very deliberately use the words work and labor in the research that I do. I don't talk about caring and that kind of thing because work and labor are what you are paid for. And I'm a very staunch advocate that nurses need to be paid for the totality of their work. I'd like to ask you as well about compassion, which I'm guessing comes under emotional labor that is an emotional labor and something that the way you describe it in your article that we've been talking about, you give a really lovely example of washing a patient and how that is expert skilled use of compassion at play and that really helped me think about compassion in a different way. Can you tell us a little bit more about compassion and how you view it for nursing? Certainly. So I think compassion is something that can be a little bit nebulous as to what is it, but I think it is that genuine sharing of emotion and empathy and being with someone wherever they are at. And I think that there's lots of ways that compassion is enacted, that again is perhaps invisible or people don't fully appreciate, but is definitely there. I think with the example of washing a patient we see that's where we can get a lot of intersections of nursing work. So for example, if you have someone and you're helping them get cleaned up and what a casual observer might see is a nurse using a washcloth helping a patient. I would suggest that what's actually happening there is the nurse is maybe chatting with the patient, but they're assessing cognition. They're looking at mental thought processes. They're assessing coordination. Can this person do this task? Could they potentially be safe to go home because if they can't wash themselves, they're not or they would need assistance at home? What kind of supports do they have at home? Do they live in a flat with lots of stairs? Is this something they can manage? Also, you're doing a huge amount of work to support that person's dignity, support their privacy, you're assessing their skin. Does their skin look okay? What about their fingernails? What about their coloring? What about all these other factors that build in? And you could do the task of just applying soap and water, but nurses have built that in in a way that can support a patient to feel empowered. And I can think to myself that if I needed help to wash myself, that would be a pretty stressful thing. And I would probably be embarrassed if I was in that situation, but as a nurse, you're using your compassion to to reframe that and possibly that it's a victory. Like, you have improved so much, the you can now wash yourself. Whereas three weeks ago, you were in ICU and weren't even conscious. Do you think compassion can be taught? This is a tough one. This is an age-old debate. I would say that compassion can be supported, and I think empathy, which would be foundational for compassion, can be enhanced. So I'm mindful that the people who come towards nursing probably have an inclination that they want to provide compassion and integrate that into their care anyway. People who don't have that sort of drive to work with and help other people probably opt into different career choices. So to this small degree that personality comes into play, I think that happens upstream. However, I think with anything, you need the environment to support it. So you can be a compassionate person, but if you're absolutely overwhelmed with things, I'm sure my family can tell you that when I have been really stressed out, my compassion level might go down a little bit, and I might be a little shorter with people than what I would ideally like. And that's a factor of the environment that you're in. So I think compassion can be enhanced in that way by building empathy, more understanding, and human connection. I think those things are important, but we have to be careful that the ability of nurses to be compassionate doesn't override all of the other expectations we have of nurses or understanding of what nursing work is. Because there's so many other things that are happening, and I think there's a risk that nurses are solely defined by their compassion, or you know, as a nurse mean or not, or that kind of thing. And I hope that we can place that in the context of a bigger picture. That was Dr Jennifer Jackson. Big thank you to all my guests for this episode of pass-caring. Dr Jennifer Jackson, Rachel Mulligan, and Offrama Flahi. And of course, Dr Sarah Cheney for being our in-house historian for this episode. You can hear from Sarah on other podcasts, including her episode for the Living with Feeling podcast on robot nurses. If you want to hear more news from nurses and the RCN, you can listen to nursing matters, the RCN's other podcast where they discuss nursing news and professional issues in nursing. You can find that on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and plenty of other platforms. And remember, we've got other episodes of pass-caring too, including mental health nursing, women's health, and more. Look out for our next episode on the History of Nurses and Industrial Action. I'm Frances Reed. Thanks for listening to Passcaring. (gentle music)