Episode 7 - Building Successful Teams in Silicon Valley

Hi there! Welcome back to you better work, the YouTube channel amplifying ambition in young women, non-binary people and trans women all over the world. Today my guest is B Paygles Minor. They are a product manager at a large media technology company. I found it so inspiring talking to B and they were so generous with their time and their advice and has some really great insights to share with you all. So I really hope you enjoy this video. As always, please give a thumbs up and subscribe to the channel. Thank you. So hi B, thanks so much for joining me on your better work today. I'm so happy to be here. Your career sounds so fascinating, so I've been really looking forward to talking to you. And I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about how you started out and found this career path. Yeah, you know, it's always so fun to be because I always sell people, I just kind of stumbled into it. So I actually graduated in 2008, so for the last, you know, large economic recession and actually had this really great job as a consultant, you know, managing consultant. And three months into it, they were just like, "Well, you know, the business is dried up and so, you know, you no longer have a job." And my response was, "Oh, well, the perfect path that, you know, I thought I was going to take, you know, that most of my classmates took is not going to be mine." And so I actually went back to Chicago. I've been in Iowa doing some work there. I went back to Chicago, became a barista at a tea store. And they started, you know, doing a lot of side job side hustles and stumbled into you being a store manager at Target. And it was actually really, really fundamentally a great experience for me because I actually had to, you know, manage all of these people, most of whom were significantly older than me. And so I'm talking about like people who were, you know, literally double my age, right? And when they were talking to me, they were like, "Beat, what we like about you is that you're smart and that you let us do what we want to do because you realize as a manager, you're a dumber than us in terms of the actual work." And I was like, "Yes, I am much dumber than you than the actual work because you've worked at Target for 20 years." But they were just like, "But you also shouldn't do this job, right? Like, they were just like, you obviously aren't interested in doing this for the rest of your life. You should go figure out what you really want to do." And so Target had this really great program where you could go to grad school and as long as you maintain like a certain grade point average, they paid for, you know, most of it. And so I actually applied to grad school and between, you know, Target and also the scholarships, I got, you know, it was pretty much a free ride. And so I was really ambitious and decided, "I'm not just going to get an MBA, I'm also going to get an MIS, this thing that school counselor sold me on, which is actually a master of information systems." But what's really interesting about that degree is that it actually teaches you how to manage technology teams. And when I realized through a lot of my experience, even when I was at Target, I would always go to electronics department, you know. When I talked to my friends, I would always talk about technology. And so what I just kind of figured out is that like technology is really the thing that I was most interested in. And so at that point, going to grad school for it, it gave me the ability to actually start having sophisticated conversations when I would go to career fairs and things like that. And I saw my own another job at a company called Sherisal, which was this small startup in Chicago. And I started off in, you know, basic level customer service, you know, tech support helping people, you know, figure out how to copy and paste links on their websites and things like that. But that was really this foundational experience because I started learning how technology companies worked. And one of the roles that existed in technology companies that I didn't know about before that was the role of product manager. And so product manager, the simplest way that I think about a product manager is that they're a person who both tries to figure out how to deliver the most business value for the business, you know, and that could be like economics or more customers. And then they also try to delight their customers, right? So they're trying to think about the right things to build so that customers are very happy and ecstatic to use their product. And this is exactly what I am. Like to this day when I had downloaded a new app, the first thing in my mind, like I'm critiquing the app the entire time, right? Like I'm thinking, oh, I would have been able to find a flow differently. Oh, you know, or this color scheme doesn't make sense, or this is unreadable, or this language doesn't make sense. You know, so that's just really who I am. And so, you know, Sherisal gave me my first opportunity to do some lightweight product management. And then from then on, that's what I've done. You know, I've done product management at every company I've been a product manager for eight years now. And it's really, really great because the the field when I first started was very small. And in a little less put together, but now it's like super sophisticated product managers are well known, you know, quantity. Every company likes to have product managers. And so it's just really been this great foundational thing that's a part of my life. I really loved what you said in your bio about your career being built around building great products was also working to enrich the community around them. Is that what drives you? Yes, you know, one of the things that's interesting about being in the position I'm in. So, you know, at this point in my career, I've worked as some of the largest most successful companies in the world. And so what I found though is that the work can be pretty thankless. You know, you there's just there's this drive to get things done. You know, when you're in the most sophisticated companies, it's let's just get things done. Let's build like the build great things. Let's, you know, build these things that are going to impact millions or even billions of customers. But there's not this desire to think about how we do that, right? It's just, you know, just head down, try as hard as you can, but don't worry about whether you're being kind to each other. Are you taking an opportunity to take time off of work? Or if you are communicating well? And so one of the things that I always try to remember is that beyond the work that we do, it's also about the people and making people successful in a whole is a really effective way to actually make sure the work is done very effectively. So one of the things I definitely noticed early in my career is that because there was all this desire to just get things done, you know, people would burn out. And or if they didn't burn out, they would just get frustrated with that company because the ages would be so much work for so long without any type of like consideration for their mental or emotional health that they would just decide to leave the company. And again, as a product manager, if I'm supposed to deliver business value, one of the simplest ways to do deliver business value is to retain, you know, employees, you know, to not have employees leave the company and then have to train someone else and have, you know, that experience over and over and over again. But I still employ those same mechanisms of doing retros, you know, constantly checking in and making sure that we're sure that we're doing things the right way. I also am a huge proponent of absolutely pivoting. You know, for instance, there are meetings that get created. If people assume that a meeting has to be the same way that because it was, it's existed that way at the very beginning that it has to still exist that way, you know, a year or two years or three years of online. And I don't believe that. You know, two weeks after we create that meeting, if it feels like it's not achieving its purpose, let's pivot and make it useful. And it's all in service of this idea that, you know, we are, we are also real beings, right? No matter how much money we could pay or how ambitious or how great we can be under those difficult and pressure situations, there's still this like allotment that we need to be creative, dynamic, humans, right? And if we don't allow that, then, you know, we really aren't being the really successful super team that we're looking to be. What advice would you give to others who are listening and think, oh, I might be interested in that kind of career? Yeah, so one of the things that I think is interesting is that, for instance, I mentioned that the current state of product management is much more efficient and like much more well defined than it was when I first started out. So first and foremost, I would say seek out a lot of the resources that exist. So you can really kind of start understanding the types of ways that you need to think about the career. So for instance, one of the huge aspects of being a product manager is being at a little cool. Another big aspect is also being a great communicator and another one is like being a great leader, right? But I find that it's very difficult to do any of the core attributes of a career path. If you don't first, deep yourself in kind of like understanding the thoughts around that career. So for instance, I'm always looking at like near a yell or marty-kian or product coalition or product collective. These are all very some individuals who kind of help establish the original principles of product management as well as organizations that are kind of continuing to have a lot of common conversation about product management and like how product management should work. And so that's really good. I also, you know, if you're a woman, there's women in product, which is this really great, fundamentally amazing group that is always putting an event and helping women get into product management. But at first, you learn a little bit more about it and then start thinking about how you can kind of grow those different skills. So for instance, one of the key skills that is often required now to be a product manager is being able to do SQL, right? So, you know, as you start like learning more about the role, you'll find those like skills that maybe you don't have that you might want to start learning and getting good at so that you can be really effective in the role. The other thing is that there's a couple different ways to get into product management that I always like to mention. So obviously there are, like, they're now programmed similar to any other career path where there's like junior product managers or product manager in terms that actually exist. But what's really interesting about product management is that there's also a whole path that is, you know, if you're a subject matter expert. So for instance, let's say if you wanted to, if you were into FinTech and you want to become a Patakmandu or FinTech, there's a real possibility that as long as you were an expert in financial, you know, aspects. So for instance, let's say if you done banking for, you know, five, ten years or something like that, and then a FinTech company needed someone who specifically knew about like banking, then there's an opportunity for you to potentially bypass some of those other steps, you know, assuming you have the specific knowledge for that company to then become a product manager. So there's a few different options there, but the main thing is to kind of steep yourself in the principles of product management, and there's a lot of really great resources. I even have a bunch of them on my own website that I kind of continue to maintain and ensure that they're there just so that, you know, folks always have like a good list of like real accurate resources that you can take a look at. I wanted to talk a little bit about yourself now, and you identify as a trans non-binary lesbian, who's part of the extended community of women, that's women with an X, is that how you would pronounce that as well? Correct. Yeah, and then I want this channel to kind of be accessible and as informative as possible, and some viewers may not know some of those terms or what the community of women with an X is about, and I wondered for those who might be thinking about their own identity, whether you're able to explain a little bit about what that means? Yeah, so similar to Latinx, so LAT, I/NX, one of the things that has kind of come up more recently, actually probably have gone and locks up is this notion of women being WOMXN, and part of that being a desire to include non-binary or other gender representation that are not traditionally, you know, a cisgender woman, right? So cisgender woman is someone who's born as a woman who also identifies as a woman, whereas, you know, there are people who have different identities that fall within the category of mostly identifying with being a woman, but do not have the same as a cisgender woman identity. So then how does that relate to me? So first and foremost, in 2014 issues, when I first came out as non-binary, and so when I say I was non-binary, what I'm saying is that I don't really feel like I am a woman or a man, but that's my definition of non-binary. So for instance, you could talk to someone else who's non-binary, and their definition might be slightly different, right? And so that's one of the interesting things about non-binary is it's kind of a catch-all for people who really don't often feel like they sit into the woman or the man category, but also don't fit into like a category such as Agenda, which is like they don't feel like they have any gender at all or gender fluid, which is where they feel like they have different gender representations at different times, and science is actually proven that they really do have different good representations at different times. And so 2014 is when I came out as non-binary, that's when I started asking people to refer to me as they them instead of she/her, but then when 2016 is 2017 issues, when I realized, well, I didn't realize I kind of always knew, but that's when I felt comfortable actually saying that I was trans non-binary. And so when you add the trans there, that's when you start talking about the fact that you feel like your body doesn't actually represent your identity. And so for instance, for myself, that means that I started taking testosterone to kind of help in allow me to have a little bit more of a neutral representation. It's a testosterone, especially for me, for instance, allowed me to start building a little bit more muscle mass. It's a desk shape a little bit of your body, and so it's a little bit more of a neutral representation, but I do low dose testosterone. So for instance, I'm never going to transition so male. I'm literally trying to just be in the between. And for instance, someone like me, I will also have a top surgery, to again mold my body. And so that's what really makes me transform non-binary, but it's always good to remember that in order to be non-binary, you don't have to be trans, to be non-binary. And then non-binary person does not have to be trans. So I'm that special snowflake in between. And then when it says lesbian, so one of the things that is probably the most important part of my life, I came out as a lesbian in 2007. Yeah, 2007. And so one of the, like, it's a big deal. You know, one of the things that I was very fortunate of, I've spent a lot of my time doing a lot of community and activism work for the LGBTQ community, but specifically with the lens of being a lesbian. And one of the things reasons for that is that lesbian and bisexual women often are some of the poorest, most mistreated, and some of the folks who have some of the most dangerous circumstances surrounding their wives. And it's a big deal. And so one of the things that was very important to me as I transitioned as I continue to evolve as a human is that I'm still a lesbian. You know, my wife, when she married me, you know, we were lesbians. And so I keep that term because that's how I identify. And it's also a group that I'm very passionate about advocating for. And so that's kind of like the way my identity works. I'm a trans non-binary lesbian. And I always self-focues. And one of the reasons why I feel so passionate also about making sure to still be a part of this, like, women, W-O-M-X-N, is that if I ever had to choose, which to be truthful with some of these governments today, they might make you choose. But I actually had to choose. Women are the best, most amazing group of individuals in the entire world. And that's why I'm always just like, yes, I like it's very, at the very least, I am pro women at all times. And so that's one of the reasons that it's so important to me to kind of continue to engage and be a part of this community. And I think with kind of pronouns and things, I know that at my work, for example, we've put our own pronouns in our email signatures. And I have it kind of on my bio and things like that. And I've been reading a lot about being quite upfront and asking people what their pronouns are before you assume what their pronouns are. Would you have any advice to others of what people can do to support non-binary people or members of the LGBTQ+ community in the workplace? Yeah, so I definitely think, so a couple things that I've been thinking about a lot. First and foremost, I actually prefer when allies are the ones who say their pronouns first. So for instance, instead of me having to specifically announce my pronouns, having someone who may have, you know, a typical pronoun to someone who looks like a woman who also has female pronouns, right? Like I prefer if that person actually goes first and starts the trend versus me having to do so because it feels like another outing. So that's one of the things that I always tell people, it kind of sucks that you have to continue to come out over and over and over again. So it's nice when someone else naturally creates the space for that to happen. I also really encourage people to use names. So I often wonder, like so if you think about English literature, right, or writing classes, they would often tell you that you need to be exceptionally clear in your writing. And one of the ways to be exceptionally clear in your writing is not to use pronouns, right? So if you think about that from a language perspective and you're speaking out loud, you know, if you use someone's name, there could be no confusion as to who you're referring to. So I often encourage people to just use people's names as well. And then other things that you say at front sense, putting in your signature or even putting in your LinkedIn, I think those things are great too because again, those are signs of allyship, right? So when people who don't who don't initially need to have the supply to them, when they're doing it proactively, it just normalizes it from a cultural perspective. And that means that it's much easier for people like me to kind of go through this world because folks should just like actually my current manager when he first met me, he's like, I think I need to ask you about your pronouns, right? But it's because people had taught him about this concept, right? And so he knew that there was something he probably should do. And even though it wasn't like kind of one of the first times he had to do it in that circumstance, the fact that other people who are my allies had done that work, meant that my experience was so much more seamless and a better experience. And so really it's about being proactive and participating in this at different times, I think, is really the thing that's most important. I don't sort of want to go into kind of specifics or details, but I just wondered whether you feel that you've faced any barriers or obstacles as a result of your identity within your career? Well, it's so interesting. So I always tell folks it's kind of difficult, right? Because one, I live in the United States, right? And so I originally was born in like the Mississippi Tennessee area and then I live in Chicago, now I live in California. So I've kind of done progressively, like I've gotten more progressive states cities as I've kind of gone over in my life. But I'm also still black. And regardless of whether my identity, most people when they first see me, they think I am, you know, heterosexual. You know, like there's assumptions that I'm probably at least in one, like a situation or one, and many people also make the assumption that I could potentially be heterosexual. And I'm also, and so that's the first part of it, right? So like that's the first part, like those are the identities that I walk into the room, but then I tell them, for instance, I'm like, "Hey, by the way, I'm a non-binary lesbian and I'm also trans." Right? So then those other things come in. And so one of the things that's very difficult is that like I don't often know why someone might be biased against me because there's quite a few different aspects of that that might exist. But I do notice it, right? I definitely notice when people are uncomfortable or when people treat me differently. And in fact, one of the things that I'm trying to do is to get a little bit of a sense of how I'm going to the reasons I made the strategic decision to leave Chicago and move to the Bay Area is that I would often get asked to participate in these panels. So for instance, I was doing very well at product and product in Chicago. I was doing, I was being asked to like speak on product methodologies to kind of be this thought leader on product in Chicago. But I never ever got, you know, the job that I thought I should get. So for instance, I was associated product manager way longer than anyone should be an associate product manager, even though I was like running the entire product. Or I was a product manager for much longer than I thought I should be a product manager when I could have been a senior product manager. But I was getting all these interviews because people would come here and speak and they would say, oh my God, like, you know, you were so great. Like you were the way you're thinking about product management is so fundamentally different and like we love it. And then I would get into the interviews and like the person who actually need to make the decision was just like, well, I don't think you're strategic enough. I don't think you're analytical enough. You know, I don't think you have enough presence. And I was just like, well, none of that makes sense because I'm literally writing the book on product management in Chicago. This does not make sense. And so it actually, when you're moving to California or actually I should talk about how I got to California, right? So I went to go do another talk in California on product management principles. Right. So again, like this is my career. I'm legitimately getting asked to speak, you know, across the country on this topic. And someone from Apple saw me speak and thought I was really good and asked me if I'd be interested in job at Apple. And I was like, well, sure, why not? And I got a job, you know, you know, doing, you know, program management, product management at Apple. And I remember going back because, you know, I got the job and there's like a few weeks before I got the job. And I had an opportunity to speak in Chicago. And the thing I talked about is I was like, you know, I'm moving to California because I want to finally be appreciated, right? And so that's one of the things I do love about Silicon Valley. Is it really is about how talented and how smart you are for the most part? I mean, obviously you still have the difficulties in getting, finding the right spaces to be seen, right? So that the people can see the trash mark and tell us it. But as soon as you get in there and you actually have the skills, you actually have an opportunity to get that job. And then once you're in that job, you know, you actually have an opportunity to do it. And then there's a lot of systems in place that, you know, make it a little bit easier for me as a person who's so diverse to be able to say specifically, you know, I feel like I'm being mistreated or also in the inverse, especially for my current company, to be so excited that for the first time I feel like I really am just able to come to work and not worry about any type of, you know, microaggressions or any type of issues surrounding my identity. I think you've sort of answered this, but I was going to ask you how you found working in tech specifically. I guess you have some previous experience to compare it to, but you mentioned that your current job you feel is quite progressive and obviously gives you the chance to shine. And I just want to see if you could talk about that a little bit more. I will say that one of the best things in, we actually talk about this all time, people who have moved from other parts of the country to Silicon Valley. If there's kind of two really interesting aspects of being in Silicon Valley. One, you have, you legitimately have some of the best and brightest in the entire world, all in one place. So we kind of like drive and push each other, right, to kind of be better technologists. But the second aspect of that is that because you're the best in brightest and it's so difficult to get people to move here, right? There is also like this energy and desire to retain talent that's a little bit different than other companies. And even in Silicon Valley, right, they're still not as great as they can be. I mean, we hear stories about Facebook and Google and you know, well, I'm trying to think like, look, please look at Google with kind of the ones who are like almost always in the news about something terrible, right? Like, you know, there's some controversy whether it's LGBTQ or Black or any other type of issue. So, you know, things you still have intermittent issues, right? There's no, again, because tech is not a model of like, warm and fuzzy, lovely people who just want to build great technology. But, you know, there still is this desire to try to get it more right than other companies, right? And so that's the thing that's very interesting to me, personally, in my career, because when I was in Chicago, again, I felt like there were a lot of race, you know, racism. There are a lot of microaggressions. There are a lot of misogyny. And those are some of the things that is like very important and to kind of combat and to kind of stand up against. But at the same time, I know like, you know, for myself strategically, I've made very specific decisions that I just, I believe companies, you know, I'm just like, I'm not going to participate in that. And I'm also going to be that person who's going to raise my hand. And if anyone asks me, I just continue to say like, you know, so for instance, because of my status now, people ask me a lot about the previous companies I've worked at and whether I would recommend them. And I get to say over and over again, absolutely not to that one, right? You know, you are, you're a diverse person. That's not going to work out too well for you. All right. You know, look at these other companies and think about company values. And you know, my hope is that overall, over time, that this will kind of continue to be something that individuals get to have the choice of, right? You know, as we kind of get more sophisticated and understand who we are, that we can be a little bit more specific and choose companies based on whether we think that like a, we're going to get the right types of opportunities and be challenging the right way, but be that they have the right values. And they're actually living up to those values. Obviously we hear a lot in the UK about Silicon Valley and it sounds like this magical place where there's so much going on. And almost from what you said, it sounds like it does live up to that in a certain, to a certain extent. Oh, definitely. You know, it's so weird. I will honestly say, I remember when I first got to Apple and I went into the garage at Apple, just the garage. Like I hadn't even really gotten into working. I was like, wait, there's like portions and Lamborghini's and Ferraris and things like that. And so I was just like, oh, these people might be douchebags. Like that was literally my first impression. I was like, I don't know how this is going to work out. And then actually started meeting some of those people who have those cars and just like, yeah, I really like cars. But I'm also thinking about how I'm going to save the rain for us. Right? So it's like, it's very interesting because you do have these like very complex individuals, right? Who exists here? And it's also like these people who, you know, you go into room and someone has like 20 patents under their name. And that's just things that it's just it's fascinating to see like the all different layers or like the person who is building this really great product, who also happens to be like a classical pianist and a photographer. And like they actually are much more interested in playing the piano every day than building technology at this plane. They're thinking about retiring. Like it's just like it's just it's just so fascinating because it is like this. It really does feel like a place where it's it's very different. You know, in terms of like my my entire life, especially since I've only been here. I've only been here for two years compared to, you know, the 30 plus years I spent in other places. But it just it definitely feels like it's a different conversation. It's a different level of attitude in terms of like how you think about the world and how you participate in the world. So I know that you and you've mentioned that you have done quite a lot of work educating and proactively would it be fair to say fighting for equality within your workplace and beyond. And I just wondered what advice you would give to a young person who might find themselves in similar situations as you or some of your colleagues that you've mentioned to find yourself. Yeah, so the first piece of advice I would actually suggest is to give yourself a break. Right. So this work is actually very draining, right. And inside you like so regardless of whether you think that you should do it, the most important thing is to remember that sometimes it gets hard and that you need to be kind to yourself and take a break from it and also take on partners. So one of the things I'm very fortunate of, especially, you know, my wife and I we've been together for six years now. And so for the past six years I've had a partner in this. But before that, I could also talk to my mother or my sister. I always had a people around me who could kind of be the mirror to me when I'm doing too much and that I could hurt, you know, I could potentially harm myself. And when I say harm myself, I mean, I'm not sleeping because I'm focused on this. I'm so stressed out because it's not moving fast enough. And so you need to have partners who kind of help have that mirror for you and say you need to take a break. And so that's it. And then most people might be surprised that that's the first thing I start off with. But I think that's the first thing because self care is how you continue to do this for a long time. I mean, secondly, choose your battles, right. So it's very difficult to kind of work on a lot of different things at once. Like for instance, right now, when I think about the things are most important to me, the thing that's most important to me are trans rights issues. And so that's the thing I'm primarily focused on, which means that, you know, I might be taking a step back from some of the Black Lives Matter things because like I feel like that's well situated and there's a lot of people who are interested in that. I'm taking a step back from the women's rights issues because there's a lot of people that I think are really situated in working on that. And so really trans rights is kind of the number one thing that's important to me because I think that I have a unique voice in space to kind of help set. So like making sure you're picking shoes because you also want to to laser focus is the most effective way to move something, right. This is actually and it actually was reaffirmed in Apple. So I was also trying to figure out like, well, how does Apple able to do the same thing over and over and over again? And it's because they laser focus. They choose what they're going to do and then every single person in an org or the company focuses is I'm getting that thing done and it's the same thing in this work you really need to focus. And then the third thing is really try to find out who is your squad and what you're doing. Right? So if it's at your company, you know, be kind of loud and when I say loud is, be a presence who's so good at their job that people want to talk to you and then you're going to be able to slowly find people who are going to be able to help you in your cause. And then if it comes out into the rest of the world, you know, engage in your community, find out who's interested in this thing and take them allies because the number one thing here is that, you know, one person can change the mind of, you know, five, ten, hundred thousand people maybe. But if you can energize, you know, ten people to help you do this work, then that exponentially increases your ability to really impact and make a change. And so, you know, coalition building or building this squad, all those different things are exceptionally important because it's going to, you know, really magnify what you're doing. Slightly differently. How would you describe yourself as a leader? Oh, my gosh. I hate to use this term, but I said it's a classic product management term, but I actually really do think it applies to me, which is this idea of being a servant leader. You know, I don't really lead, per se. For me, I try to figure out what the secret sauce is for different people. And I try to activate that secret sauce in them. My goal is to make everyone really a leader. And then I just become like a consultant. You know, people come back to me and go, "Be, this is what I was thinking. You know, what do you think?" And I'm like, "That sounds great." I mean, like, you know, like I have absolute confidence. I'm so sure that you're going to pursue the right path. And if for some reason it doesn't work out, come back to me and we can talk to if you why it didn't work and improve upon it. But I really think that's like the number one thing for me is that I just, I don't really, like, I really believe in this is going to sound super, like glass half full, like, very corny. But I actually believe everyone wants to be excellent. And it's just the actual thing that prevents them from being excellent, I think is often because we try to kind of put them in a box or prohibit them or keep them from doing, you know, like, limiting them in some way. And for me, I like to try to expand that box and allow people to kind of really spread their wings and try different things because I find that that's the most effective way. So you kind of allow people to kind of become the better version of who they are, right? So I'm much more like a like I am your chief cheerleader who will hold you accountable. So let's be truthful. Like, if something goes wrong, I am definitely the person who will stand up and say, you know, that wasn't okay. You know, we can't have that happen again. Let's work through it. But like, ultimately, I just fundamentally believe if you hire well or if you recruit well, people already have the right skills and they're just looking for that person who's going to help support them and encourage them to kind of do their best work versus someone who's going to kind of try to manage their products, right? Like, because people are a product too, right? Like, manage them in that way. That doesn't really make sense to me. So I wondered, you talked in your bio about building successful teams. And I wondered if you could talk about how you built successful inclusive teams, which I suspect will lead back a little bit to your management style. And where others might start if they are either managing a new team or managing a team that's feeling a little bit that's not performing as well as they might like. Yeah. So, you know, one of the letters that I was studying done by Google years ago and I think it's like the endrometer study or something like that. And it was this experiment they had to figure out how to build the best team. And so they tried all these different things. They tried putting like the smartest, most talented people ever. All one team didn't work. They tried balancing the team with lots of different skill sets and that didn't work either. The only thing that actually worked was actually building teams that had a large amount of psychological safety. And so what I meant was that these people, you know, had a large degree of trust between team members. They also were felt very comfortable being vulnerable with each other. And because of that, those teams were much more successful than the other team. And so I've really taken that to heart. And that you have to create psychological safety in your team to have a truly successful team. And so there's a lot of different ways to do that. So first and foremost, I spend a lot of time just getting to know my team. Now, let's pretend like you're in a different like industry. That's not tech because I will say that tech is a lot easier to do this with. But let's pretend you're in, you know, insurance or medicine. Like how do you do the same thing when there's a lot more complexity and a lot and maybe the personalities are very different? Well, it's still both the same way, right? You know, if you're especially if you're managing people, you should be having like, so for instance, one on ones to me, less than 50% of one on one should really be about what work is that you're doing, right? More than one on one should be, you know, how are you feeling? Are you getting the support you need? What are the types of trainings that you need? What are your aspirational goals? You know, like those types of things, like you should really be talking about what makes the whole person. So that as a manager, you can start getting those like little pieces of information that will help you kind of unlock that person. So again, focus on retention. Like it's actually all selfish right? Because you're like, how do I keep this person? Because I don't want to do any more hiring. I don't want to do any more training. So how do I make sure that I am looking at the whole being so that I can keep this person happy? Right? And that's the secret sauce, right? The secret sauce is doing that. And then once you do find out things that will impact the team or impact their experience, it's like how do I gently make sure other people are aware of that? And so that's the other thing about being a manager is that you have to be, you have to like basically be psychic, right? You have to start thinking about what the things are going to happen and what and how that might impact the team and proactively make sure that doesn't happen. And so those are just kind of the things that I think about as I go for it. You know, you know, having a team that really feels psychologically safe. And then most importantly, feels like they can be their whole selves, right? And so that's something I talk about a lot. Is it like, I don't like teams where I feel like people only bring a part of themselves because I also feel like when you don't bring your whole self, it naturally creates the environment of potentially being distrustful because people are very knowledgeable. Like they know when someone isn't really being honest with them. And so that's another part of it is that you're trying to just like again, you know, being aware of where the pitfalls can be. It kind of removed those before they ever happen. I've been asking everyone the same final question, which is, what are you proudest of so far in your career? You know, that's a that's a very big question. Actually, I think it's like the mentorship aspect of things. You know, I've been very, very surprised and soon going back to target. So when some various people that I've worked with or that I've managed, who have come to me, you know, years after I stopped working with them and we haven't actually had a conversation since then. And they're like, be I need a recommendation for something or be I need your advice on something. And I'm always like kind of surprised. I'm like, I didn't like, I think to a certain extent, I still kind of getting adjusted to the fact that I could have a very large impact on someone's life, even larger than I actually thought about at the time. And for them to come to me and say, you know, I thought like I was trying to work through something. And you're the only person I thought who can help me, you know, figure this out. Like that's the most powerful and encouraging thing. And I've been talking, I've been thinking a lot about this idea of legacy. And you know, you know, when you're gone, what is your legacy? And right now, you know, it's kind of cool that maybe my legacy is that I'm a person that people can trust to kind of come to you no matter when, when they have, you know, a complex issue that they're trying to work through. Right. And it's not necessarily a problem. It could just be a job offer, right. Like it's just like, oh, this job is really cool, but my current job is like cool too. And so I'm just trying to make sure I'm thinking about the right thing. And to be a person that people trust to kind of help with those types of things has been the proudest thing in my life so far. That's a brilliant, brilliant thing to choose. And I'm sure that everyone that's come to you for that mentoring or support is extremely grateful. And I think you've been extremely generous of your time to them. And also it's extremely generous with your time today. Thank you so much for coming on the channel. I think that's going to be really useful for a lot of people. Thank you. So I hope you enjoyed that video with me. I had such a great time talking to them. They had such a wealth of experience. They were really generous with their advice. And they were considering value, which just sounds amazing. Definitely made me tempted to take on a tech career and head out to the bay. I hope you enjoyed that video. I hope it was really useful for you. I have put the link to B's website in the description. So please do go check that out if you want to look at some of the resources that they mentioned. As always, please give this video a thumbs up. Please subscribe to the channel. Share the video with anyone that you think it might be useful for. And follow on Twitter and Instagram @workbetteru. Have a lovely week. Bye!