Episode 7: AI for Peace and Sustainability: A Conversation with Parishrut Jassal in India

This is a conversation with Paris-Sourat Zasah on AI Governors and Sustainable Development Goal 16. Welcome to Conversation 4 Citizenship. Greetings related to this episode can be found on our website. Hello listeners, welcome to the Conversation 4 Citizenship Podcast. I'm your host Stella Bi-jung-jung. Today on the podcast, we are talking about artificial intelligence, potential to transform peace and sustainability and how is shaking things up for better or worse. We'll be talking about how AI can be used ethically and sustainably, especially when it comes to building peace in a world facing conflict. Joining us is Paris-Sourat Zasah, a PhD candidate from Punjab University whose research focused on how AI governance can support peace-building efforts. Through Paris-Sourat's work, we will see how artificial intelligence can be a tool for peace education and a more sustainable future. Let's get started. Hi Paris-Sourat, how are you doing? Hello Stella, thank you for having me. I'm doing great. How are you? Wonderful, I'm always good for joining us. Before we dive deep, could you introduce yourself briefly? Can you give us a few of your doctorate research on AI governance and what inspired you to focus on AI governance for SDGs 16, Sustainable Development Goals? Sure, I'll start with a brief introduction to your listeners. So hello everyone, I'm Paris-Sourat, Paris-Sourat Zasah, it's my full name. I'm a PhD candidate from Punjabi University in India and I'm also working as a facilitator for AI governance fellowship program, which is being hosted by Equinary Institute in Africa. And in my doctoral study research, it focuses on how the AI governance, so we all know that the landscape of AI policies, acts, frameworks are developing at the moment right now. So I analyze them, I analyze the policies which are developing across clove and then I tap and connect the dots, how those policies are a potential resource or potential users of the AI technology, how the technology will be developed and deployed, can contribute to the poster of Sustainable Peace. And in the Sustainable Peace Arena, I focus mainly on the Sustainable Development Goals 16, which is Sustainable Peace, Justice and Strong Institutions. Yeah, that's it. Alright, that's good. Well, Paris, I'm just wondering about the research that informed your thinking on the theoretical framework for AI governance and/or peace building. Are there any specific scholars or books that you found a particular influencer? It would be great with some of our listeners. So I'll answer this, New York question by where the initiated for me is fairly. So how I got into the research field of the AI governance and how we can leverage the AI scenario right now for Sustainable Peace. So apparently the AI technology which is being developed around the clove, it is considered and as viewed the arena of tech-saving people like only technology driven people are into the deciding factor who is kind of technology is being developed and what kind of technology is available to us. When this artificial intelligence became a very, you know, a hard word or as it was in a pretty mainstream arena for a long time as of now and it's not going any way any soon. When it was it garnered the attention of an average human being who is aware of its surroundings. Then the question arise that okay, certain technologies in around us it's being available to each citizen of each country and how they are using it and certain trends came into authorities as well. Then they started to you know the initiative to govern this to you know to control this. Not in a manner to you're hindered the progress of a certain technology or to what extent it can go. But I'll state this with a very certain example like we all know that European Union and AI act came into the picture very recently and apart from that very recently even United Nations in the General Assembly adopted a landmark decision on AI governing the AI and you know what they discussed and what they mentioned right now. They're just saying that this particular technology it should be safe, secure and it should be trustworthy they're not asking for more and this is being addressed to the lobby of the persons who are developing this technology like that scientists who are behind this who are developing us technology. And by like you know drawing this framework or trying this the way how some any technology for that matter should be good and work. Go on they are addressing the digital gap the developing nations have and between the developing nation and the development. Then they have mentioned about the fear access to this technology which is a huge importance when like any any any technology should be a level playing field for everyone. Then they have specifically mentioned the AI role not for only sustainable development and also they have mentioned about the human rights and the freedom or the people should feel virtually and offline itself. But they have specifically mentioned about SDG 16 or for that matter the whole SDGs which sustainable development goals which we have are total in number are 17 now to come to the question that what kind of resources as this is a nixon stage as of what resources I refer to and what so as of now what resource material or the literature which I've gone through are hardly talking about direct connection between SDG 16 or for that matter SDG and AI. But the closest one which I can mention is that the donation global pulse lab so this global pulse lab they base is in Africa. So they are they have been researching and working on the big data and how AI can be used and utilized to foster peace building and conflict prevention. Apart from that I focus to deep dive into this research arena which I'm also developing and going forward in this I have focused on how AI is governed like or basically what governance is when AI comes into the picture and because it's a new word even AI governance like it's a pretty like now it's in you can see you can spot the word but how it is very originated and in literature word in a research arena what is the etymology of this term. So in order to address that AI governance part and then the literature for the sustainable development goal 16 is huge literature and though there are few drawbacks that the metrics to measure the SDG 16 are not coherent but to build a connection I think that my research in this field will be of huge importance because as of now the AI being talked about in journal manner like for human security or human rights and to foster sustainable beauty or if we are talking in the sense of public sector they are just only mentioning about like it can be used in healthcare agriculture and service sector maybe but not specifically no one is addressing about sustain and when it comes to sustainable peace also I have specifically taken the sustainable development goal 16 because by this we are achieving two things like one is obviously the developing a culture of peace and solving the issue of conflict and violence through governing AI how it is developed and deployed apart from that my research is also contribution to the agenda 2030 that there will be some literature available or there will be some work available to assess the SDG 16 when you navigate it you find research work on SDG 16 how it is altering away or how it is how not no more metrics is available but I'm not addressing that there's an issue with SDG 16 but I'm making most what already have been designed instead of like going back to the process of like developing something and re-assessing what should be there in SDG 16 what should should focus but for me I think as we dive deep into this conversation through the episode I address those points Wow, peristrate that's really informative well before personally I'm curious about how AI research like your research on AI governance going back at Punjab University or even at other universities in India I'd love to hear about what cutting edge it looks like there It's very interesting question you ask. Like, I can across. people who are working in AI, I meet them virtually because in India as of now the situation on the ground level is like not that promising but as far as the government work is concerned, that is bit promising. You know when some technology enters into any arena like it's not that in my country it was introduced later because when like any technology comes you are easily accessible to each and everyone. But as far as the research situation in my country is concerned, in India I think there is work in computer science sector or in the domain of computer science where how the technology how any AI is to be developed and to be you know deployed maybe but not to that extent that it is affecting masses. But that have been from long ages like it's not a new technology for that matter. But if I talk about specifically my research field as I'm addressing how AI should be got governed and what policies and what frameworks are being designed. I haven't come across any scholar as of now and I'm pretty active on various social media platforms and I do strive for look forward to meet people. But I have met people in India as well but they are from computer science engineering background and their development and technology but not of my knowledge as of. It's pretty nice in state as far as the research is concerned. Wow so it means you are pioneer in this area right? That that we can say once I have given concrete results through my research. Thank you. That's great. Thank you Perishwarya. Let me move on more in depth questions. So as we as we are witnessing AI offers unprecedented opportunity. Best however with great power comes great responsibility right? When it comes to peace building it's crucial to navigate ethical, societal, environmental impact of AI. So does the AI governance your envisioning taking into account all these ethical, social, environmental impact? Can you share some key insight on how AI governance and SDG 16 are interconnected? Perfect. That's a good question. Thank you for this question. Because through this question I will be able to give your listener insight to what really goes into how AI is being governed and what they can also look forward to. So coming to your question see if I have to tell you how AI is being governed as of now. So the best example which I have right now is the European Union AI Act 20204. And this recent approved regulation it establishes a risk based approach to regulating AI and it technology which is being developed or deployed. It regulates in a very risk based manner. So how it is a risk based approach? So they categorize the AI systems based on their potential risk levels. So they can be a higher risk, medium risk and minimal risk. So this initiative of theirs it directly addresses the challenges of ensuring that responsible development of AI technology and deployment of AI technologies there to give our listeners a more clear picture is I'll give you an example of like how SDG 16. So you know sustainable development goal 16 it has very stark targets. So 16.A this is a target of SDG 16 it talks about reducing violence. Okay. And if we come come into picture if we bring into the picture how AI is governed through the lens of EU AI Act 2024 in context of 16.8 for point of explanation and giving a good vantage point to your listener. So 16.8 talks about reducing violence and in relation to the AI governance which is the EU AI Act talks about like imposing strict requirements on high risk system like facial recognition technologies. So EU AI aims to mitigate the risk of AI being misused in ways that could escalate violence or violate human rights. So if any technology which have like facial recognition technology like we have iPhones today it was a long back time when we used to have a phone where our thumb print used to open our interface of this mobile device now we have our facial recognition is there. So this AI Act or this way of governing AI because I'm not saying that this is the prime level of like how AI should be governed but right now what we have at our hand it is the most concrete is the EU AI Act and then comes our UN's decision on like recent adoption. And SDG 16 also talks about like let's suppose the strengthens sending of institutions we have various institutions and for any human like civilizations to survive the institutions play a huge role and it is apt lake addressed in the sustainable development goal 16. So in this case the Act promotes transparency and accountability in AI development and which is done by requiring companies or any AI developers to provide documentation on how their systems work and what kind of data is being used to train their systems which forces trust in AI obviously and it also standards the institutions that rely on these technologies. So as of now if I'm being frank with you we have EU AI Act that is what we have like the Peneca we can say to go on AI and then we have the UN's decision adoption and apart from that the console of Europe have recently shared their draft of like you know governing the AI which will go do process you know after that do process it will be ratified and it will be considered as one of the documents which we can address or AI go I can give you one more example in this scenario like the SDG 16.1 the target 16.1 it talks about like you know how we can force to piece and a culture of peace so the focus on responsible AI development can contribute to a more peaceful society by minimizing the potential for AI to push more inequalities around or like how it can be used for malicious purposes. So the AI Act also talks about it addresses that so I'm just giving a example and to our listeners how I'm like paving a bridge this bridge is going to connect to any AI go on as document any nation any union of nations is coming up with and then I'm going to draw like we have certain targets in SDG 16 what act is overlapping what target and if they are targeting it or not targeting even if they are targeting it to what extent it is helpful in the target of forcing the whole SDG 16 through what kind of technologies being developed and what kind of technologies deployed in our society. Yes 100% with you and in terms of peace building on achieving cultural peace the collaboration in even though the European Union is Devlicied and U.A.I. Act but there is several challenges to adopt another culture another society another institute like India you know because there is a big difference between the country so what are the main challenges in allowing AI governance with the goals of peace and justice and human rights and how can these challenges be addressed. I will just say that what are the challenges we have so you know the potential issues of AI in weapon systems let's suppose like it could escalate the violence to a level which we can't you know it it it it might go like a beyond our control and leave alone it will violate what international law it's going to violate or but what is at stake algorithm bias it's a pretty basic mistake while developing any AI technology and it can give you results which might not be tangible like autonomous weapon systems something but a certain technology which is giving their results answers in certain pattern which are inherently biased and if it is ratified by certain governments as Gen.C. and it comes into application of daily use how it could push already existing inequalities in our society in our justice system and how it can fuel the discriminator practices which humans the social labels which already society and if certain technologies developed and it's another challenge if there's no transparency in it like if a certain companies developing certain technology and costable and they're not like explainable to insert someone and if there is no governance around that is that then the AI is making processes so that's why institutions have to play a huge major field in this and take them to that point that a certain governance act or certain way of going warning AI, it is related to its social cultural situation where it is being flourished. So if the AI act or the policy framework around AI is being developed at let's suppose ABC country, is it possible to use the same framework at XYZ country or at another country? I'm not naming any country just to be politically correct at this moment but you get me right. To address this situation I'll give you see certain amount of a ring like scale can be used in another country but obviously not the same document can be used in a country XYZ because I'll tell how certain amount can be addressed because how AI is governed it is governed in a way like by establishing clear guidelines for responsibility, development and deployment and AI can go and it can mitigate that is like around this other way of governance is like international corporations around like how AI governance frameworks can ensure a more unified approach or you can say a more unified approach which is ethical and which posters best practices and which in the end posters the trust of their citizens or trust of people in certain technology. So what this is what the government of any country have to ensure that their citizens should not be like go like vary off what kind of technology is being authorized by our government. So in that sense of what kind of flaws or what kind of matrices is being prepared through EU AI act or through United Nations or even if I talk about India, India recently came up with their cybersecurity and privacy guidelines for AI in businesses and this came after a spot kind of AI model and how AI models should be prepared and which was rolled back because the consensus in the community of AI affected or the stakeholders and shareholders in this were not in favor of it but the recent decision of like what India came up with cybersecurity and privacy guidelines for AI in businesses. It does address is certain issues which are being already being mentioned in EU AI act when the EU talks about the data privacy but it has certain areas which India's cybersecurity and privacy guidelines are talking about which are related to India or which are related to the people of India or what kind of businesses are flourishing in India. So as of now we have only three four let's was five but the UN Act which was UN what UN adopted sorry it was ratified by 100 plus countries and they were in favor of what guidelines and even the guidelines which UN is has adopted as of now. Tools were created not by a single entity or not by UN personnel only the consideration of each and every country was taken into place but it is so recent that we can't say that it is the final one. We still have to wait we still have to see how it is being reflected upon and what the community shareholders have to say about this decision of United Nations. But the risks which entails with any technology and how to minimize this risk it is in the hand of the developer of that technology and the sovereignty in which the technology is being used. So the both the government and the developers are accountable in what kind of technology is coming to play and what risk it entails. Wow that's fascinating thank you so much Perish and my next question is about it's related to education I know your area is not related to education but I think your research can also contribute to peace education in that respect. How do you think AI governance as you investigate can contribute to peace education or what aspect of AI governance do you think need to be considered in order to contribute to peace education? Thank you for this question and although it is not entirely new to me because I did my masters in peace and conflict studies so we have like we had this in our course work about peace education or the peace of first-ring a culture of peace we can say. So as far as peace education and my research on AI governance which is for apparently for achieving SDG 16 but you know what peace education is it is about you know educating people or for stringer scenario where whatever is being taught it amounts to a culture of peace if I'm not wrong right and if I have to connect between AI and peace education and or link it so I'll say the basic the most basic thing which clicks to me is the AI application in in the scenario or in the domain of peace education we can like explore how AI power tools or AI apps would be used to enhance such certain initiatives and if I have to tell you more that you know the interactive simulations to help students understand the conflict dynamics and they can explore the peaceful ways to solve those conflicts and apart from that we can also say that you know we have these personalized learning platforms later to different learning styles and they get promote the sense of empathy or understanding different cultures or different so we can host some certain like you know scenarios before making a decision or before like coming into certain opinion which tend to be stereotypical we can run the scenario we can understand what a culture of Milleau which is new to them in a more informed manner and apart from that we can like obviously if we notice the young generation of today they are hooked on their black screens and you can instill educational games and that that can use like you know we can use the AI to develop certain education games to create engaging scenarios like where students can practice critical thinking which will help them develop more sensitized and more human opinions and a way of addressing certain situation and if it is already or we can totally make the educational games totally towards like conflict resolution scenarios or what if certain two parties come into like you know conflict how it can be level playing for both of them to sort it out and apart from that the peace education I will say that through peace education we can also push or like I share the responsible use of AI like if we can promote responsibility I development through peace education like peace education can emphasize the importance of responsible AI development and which is aligned with the principle of peace you know and where we can discuss about how a culture of peace or respect for human rights like leave a non-human rights a respect for a fellow human being obviously we gonna respect the rights of another human being but here AI can play a huge role and we can definitely look into this like how further it be of some one great use okay thank you so much for sharing an several example for instance education game is interesting we call gamification but my question is about what aspect of AI governance do you think need to be considered to contribute to peace education have any have you ever thought about the AI God that you will you will divide this AI governance related to peace education do you like to add something how AI is governed we can see different policies frameworks coming into picture and if we have to connect it with peace education per se we can see specific aspects of AI governance which we can integrate it into peace education I can say whenever a law or whenever any policy of framework is being designed or any entities in a way attempting to go on AI they can address peace education in that ethical consideration and the can like add the aspects of I can't say these words like these point of my will resonate directly with peace education but you know in a certain way we can include the which is also being already being included in how AI is being converted but if we have to specifically posters peace education I will say that AI governing bodies can address it from the very beginning the aspect of peace education in their documents and I can't really comment upon like what exactly they have to address upon in their document while of governing the AI but they can effectively mention how AI can be utilized for peace-building efforts for resolving the conflicts it will be more direct approach like they can discuss about the importance of integrating ethical consideration and all Also, what kind of conflicting scenarios are prevailing in a country? I hope I answered you. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's really helpful to understand. Okay, this is my last question. So looking toward the future, what role do you envision AI playing in achieving global peace and meeting SDGs 16 targets? Or how do you see the evolution of AI governance impacting the global pursuit of success? I will say when any new technology is introduced in the society or in any civilization, people are apprehensive towards it, people are onward towards it, and how AI has entered into our life, how this particular technology is shaping the world around us is of huge importance to each and every one of us. We cannot deny the important AI plate. And I will tell your listeners, I would like to mention this to your listeners very specifically that I vouch for AI as a tool to humanity, not which is replacing the people's thinking and the ability of a human being or beat any manner. You know, in peace education or in peace and conflict series, we talk about ways to conflict resolution or like how we can build peace. I'm of the opinion that this technology which have huge importance to do wonders can certainly be used in a way that it enhance peace. It will resolve conflicts very effectively. But only when it is used as a tool, not it is given the purpose or it is designed to resolve a conflict. A human intervention has to be there and the policies and the ways, the process of resolving conflict which humans have been using which are evolved, which have evolved through ages through the insights of different conflicts scenarios through different human efforts has still to be used. The methods developed by humans are still to be used. Only AI is to assist it or to make it more efficient, not to only replace it. That is for me what AI is to peace. And if I have to say the society in general, I will say be ready, be receptive of what is happening around us because each and every human being have the same capacity of thinking of itagleting something which is happening to them. No one is less or more for me. Be it of any race or any culture, they are, everyone is human and they have the ability to foresee the future. And I'm not saying everyone is clear-going but I'm saying if we are aware enough, we can envision how certain technology is going to unfold down the lane of our journey towards this life where we are destined to. And this AI technology is going to be very integrated or very, it's going to play a huge role in our society. It's going to be that part when mobile phones were new. It was all to carry it because we have certain places to make a call, to connect with someone. But when we came into habit of picking this particular device, now it feels as a part of our party. Now we have a risk watch for that. I don't know what is coming up next, but this is very common. If you leave your keys and your mobile phone at your home while leaving for work, I think what first thought is going to come to your mind is that your first priority is always going to be your mobile phone because it is that integrated into our life. And that will be the case with AI. And I have to mention with all our listeners that it might not be tangible, the role of AI might not be tangible. But you can't see it, but it's still going to play a huge role in it. Beat in uplifting the society or beat in hindering our progress to make this world accessible and peaceful. But the decision of making that is within us within each one of us. Whatever role they are playing as a role of educator, as a role of developing of a certain AI technology or in the role of decision makers who work technologies to allow and what not to allow each one of us have certain role to play. And let's play that role keeping in mind that we all are humans and we all are together in this world and less post certain values which are benevolent, which are loving to each one of us and towards each other. Thank you. Wow. Peris, Fred, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, I do. I think it's a very important question. I didn't mention the efforts of collaborative efforts of regional efforts. This is the case of global partnership on artificial intelligence. This is GPAI. This is where democracies leading democracies are coming into picture, coming together and making working groups towards responsible AI or what kind of sectors the AI should address and going to the needy and critiques of this world. One is this and India is the chair of GPAI 2024. So we have a lot of expectations and who are from India of performing efficient role in developing frameworks and policies which will go on the technologies of AI's building upon. And other than that, the most mentioned is African Union. African Union are addressing the AI act, not AI act, but like this is a regional collaboration which like exploring certain initiatives and their developing certain frameworks for the development of AI in Africa. And that's a huge feat because although the AI act of EU and even UN and each and everyone are talking about that there should not be any digital divide between developing nations and developed nations. And 13 things I think are only on paper and only on the screens but we all know what goes what is the ground reality. How you can't just expect someone to be in tune with certain level of technology as a developed nation is having because they don't have the resources, they don't have the infrastructure, the SME conductors which come when it comes into the picture, the developing certain AI technology leave alone governing it. It requires a huge amount of resources and I will suggest that see my PhD topic is about the international cooperation. How we can govern AI as internationally as one entity like although it is a bit distant dream of mine but we can try at least like we can develop certain way of governing AI which is overlapping across nations and I will also mention by this what will happen that each and everyone will consider the cultural difference of each and every society and they will develop certain way of governing technology which is common to let's suppose my let's go to my political example of country ABC and country X-FYZ. So that's where we are preaching countries, we are preaching human beings. So I think that's what I might have mentioned that the development in the so called global south and the global north. Let's not get into this challenge of global south or global north like let's be globally in a way to go and say like there should be global governance of AI. That's the act we should have. I know it's not as of now but why not to aim for it and we can if we are reaching anywhere near to it half of the work is done. Wow. Perishwirt. I really appreciate it. This absolutely fascinating. Your research on AI governance for peace building is incredible. You know it's clear that AI has huge potential for a more peaceful world just like you said about this dose SDG 16 key. The key as you pointed out is global partnership AI or the international club. Everyone working together to make sure AI is used responsibly and I think seriously your work is giving me so much hope for the future. I don't think we can harness the power of AI to create more peaceful and sustainable world. By the way, Perishwirt best of luck finalizing your PhD journey looking forward to leave this once you close that finish line. I know. I would too. Thanks again for joining us today and thank you so much for having. I'm closing the episode. I'm Stella. Thanks for listening to Conversation for Citizenship. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe Conversations #4 Citizenship and look for us on Twitter @c4ctieD. A transcript of today's conversation with Paris Red Sassa can be found www.conversations #4 Citizenship. This episode of Conversations #4 Citizenship was produced by me, Stella Jean, Camille and thank you so much. Daniel Vod.