Episode 683: Clifford Olsen Part II - Senator Rabbit

there's no place to escape to this is the last on the left that's when the cannibalism started we like we like we don't take canadian seriously no oh he's like ah cute what are you gonna do fucking throw a beaver at me oh great oh you're angry oh no what are you gonna do you're gonna not have second breakfast oh you're so angry you can't use your your pipe weed ran out is that your problem mr canadian is that why you're so irritable because you can't have your you can't have your big second lunch with the big soup out of a big old gourd filled with like meat and beans and stuff and then you eat and go oh i should hope that's enough for everyone and then everyone goes like oh yeah of course our favorite hobby here in canada sharing and then everybody's like oh yeah of course oh yeah of course our favorite hobby here in canada sharing and then everybody's like oh yeah of course our favorite hobby here in canada sharing with the help of other guys. But then the thing is is that when everybody Sometimes with the help of other guys. That one time he was just joining in. It wasn't really with the help of. It was more just taking advantage of. Yeah, he was like the D'Artagnan of the group. Yes, he arrived. But yeah, and then otherwise, yeah, I think he did that. I think that it's honor amongst prison rapists is really, it's not really there. No. I don't think they stick together. I don't think so, no. Well, even though Olsen hadn't ever been convicted of raping children or teenagers, he'd certainly been arrested for it. Child molesters aren't any more popular in Canadian prisons than their American counterparts. Although in Canada, molesters are known as skinners. We call them short eyes here. Short eyes, chomos, chicken necks or chicken heads. Chicken hawks. Chicken hawks. All these things are too cute. Every single one of those is way too cute. Oh, we got a little skinner coming. Yeah, the victims are cute. There you go. Thank you. Well, I guess that's the transference then, isn't it? That's how it is. That's how I see it. Well, because Olsen was indeed a skinner, he was under constant threat of attack from inmates who had made it their personal mission to beat and or murder child molesters on the inside. Now, Olsen was nothing if not concerned with self-preservation, so he quickly figured out that the best way for him to survive his incredibly frequent stretches in prison was to become the ultimate rat. Reportedly, Olsen ratted out every inmate he could. Every inmate. Every inmate. Any infraction. This made him even more unpopular amongst prisoners. But it, of course, did not come without consequence. After Olsen ratted on a prisoner during this stretch, the inmate took a hammer and smashed it in Olsen's skull. Olsen, however, said that when he was struck with the hammer, he felt no pain. He said he actually felt nothing at all, adding, quote, It was funny. And kind of interesting. Kind of? Yeah. Oh, what a fun social experiment you gave me with the hammer. Oh, wow. I guess I'm a nail. It just really worked for me. Olsen also didn't hold the hammer attack against his fellow inmate. He just shrugged his shoulders and said, these things happen. If I was him, I'd hit me with a hammer. Look at that thing, huh? Oh, wow. Oh, look at that. But the lesson Clifford Olsen took from this incident was not that snitches get stitches. Instead, Olsen began to think that a hammer would be a great weapon for killing someone. I just got an ID. It's like the guy broke the light bulb that went off. Well, he thought it'd be the perfect weapon because his own experience had convinced him that it was a humane and painless way to take someone down. That gun's no good. You gotta use the hammer. Yeah. So do you think, like, he got really hurt? Or do you think the guy, like, kind of, like, fucked up and missed him a little bit or something? I think he got, I think he got brained. I think he got knocked out at the very least. But I think he got knocked out to the point where, uh, he did not feel the actual blow. It hurt later, but not when it happened. I actually think, I might be entirely wrong in this, but sidestorieslpotl at gmail.com, but I do believe one of the examples, one of the symptoms of psychopathy is responding less to pain. I think that is one that I don't, I might not be, I might be wrong, but I do think that that's a part of it is that he so doesn't care that it doesn't even matter. It's like what weed, like how weed, stops pain where weed doesn't, like, it's not like a, uh, when you do something that's like an, uh, something that's a, uh, opium based or whatever that's called. Opiate? Yeah, an opiate. When it's not that, it, like, weed more just makes you not care that you're in pain. I do know that people who can't feel pain have less fear. Yes. Yeah. As they should. Yeah, they have, like, people who have, like, conditions, neurological conditions in which they can't feel pain, they just, they just have very little fear. All right. Which is strange, but. I can see. I can see him having that. Well, you know, pain is the thing that teaches us fear. Yeah. The first thing. Fear is the mind killer. That's right. And the hammer, too. Whoa, you're learning from my dude. That's dude, you fucking nerd. You fucking big old sticky ass nerd. Actually, I was quoting the characters with Henry Zebrowski. Thank you. Someone's got to. Jomji's coming back. That's nice, though. Yeah, just three, four more years. They'll be able to come right back around. Yeah, you'll come right back in there. Their note was more Jomji. They said specifically, they want it more. It's Netflix. I'm talking to you, fucking Netflix. Big old fucking daddy. You told me you wanted Jomji. That was a big note on the script. Yeah, and then all of a sudden, they pretend like, oh, Mr. O'Reilly. Begging me for Jomji. Although Clifford presented himself as happy in prison, he also worked constantly to get himself out. He escaped again and again. But was always captured within days, if not hours. When escape didn't work, Olsen began constantly applying for parole. But his requests during this stretch were rejected for good reason. One parole session, for example, only lasted 30 seconds. Because Olsen had been caught raping a fellow inmate just before his hearing began. I lost track of time. I hate this. You know, I actually need to be. I think a big thing here is that no one wants to acknowledge how I have undiagnosed ADHD. Yeah, we got to make this quick, buddy. ADHD. I have A-D-H-D. Thing is, you give me an appointment for three, I'm not going to be able to do anything all day long because I'm going to be waiting for the appointment at three. Time blindness. Well, seeing that the parole board was a bust, Olsen started writing letters to politicians and celebrities, enthusiastically lobbying for himself regarding leniency in sentencing or support in his next parole hearing. I don't even know which Canadian. Canadian celebrities he wrote to. Dan Aykroyd, for sure. Well, this is 1962, so did Canada have celebrities in 64? Yeah, there was Johnny Snows, the guy that. He was famous for rolling a giant just barrel places. Oh, yeah. There was that one dog that was governor. I do believe, yeah. And then the Oilers. And guess who? Very good. Wow. That is an obscure fucking poll, Eddie. Very good. That's why you're here. Well, his correspondence with politicians earned him a second nickname, Senator. And when that nickname was combined with the one he'd earned for his many escape attempts, he was indeed dubbed Senator Rabbit. Again, it's far too cute. Like, nah, Jeffrey Dahmer's his street name. In prison, we call him the President of Chocolate. Well, he's the closest one we know in the chocolate industry. So it does make sense. Plus, he has sex with men. With black men. We all know he prefers black men to double entendre. It's a little, you know, it's not politically correct, I admit. But he's the President of Chocolate. He's the President of Chocolate. What do you want? What do you want from me? 1971, a prison psychologist finally got his hands on Clifford Olson. And his read on Senator Rabbit was just about. The psychologist wrote that Clifford was, quote, an active, loosely controlled little man who presents himself in a polite yet almost manic manner with emotional development that ranges between that of a three-year-old child to a 12-year-old. Get out of my fucking report cards. Well, yeah, holy shit, that does describe you. But I'm a pro-social. An active, loosely controlled little man. I'm a pro-social Clifford Olson. Ha ha ha! And he doesn't own a hammer. That is true. No, no, no, no. Well, this psychologist, however, still recommended that Clifford Olson be paroled. Although the psychologist did state that it would probably be a good idea if the parole officer met with Olson every single day as opposed to once a week. Meetings always curb a serial murderer and rapist. Yeah. It's always a meeting. That's the top of the dead of the track. As you can see from him raping the guy right before his parole hearing. He's super good with schedules. You know we're a great place to meet him every single. Every single day is prison. Yeah. Ha ha ha! Because you know exactly where he is. He's where you left him. Ha ha ha! But what this shows is that Clifford Olson had that rare yet incredibly dangerous superpower that's held by some narcissists. See, even though Clifford's flaws were on full display, his charm made people want to help him in any way they could. If I could compare Clifford Olson to anyone, I would compare him to the most famous narcissistic murderer America has ever seen. That American, of course, is OJ Simpson, who was also very fond of saying that he "loved everybody." I love everybody, man. He does! He didn't have any enemies except for that one woman. That one waiter. Yeah, yeah. That was it. It was just two enemies. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I fucking hate when people kill waiters. Yeah. It takes long enough to get my waters. Yeah. Ha ha ha! It's all about the men. It's all about his belly. Well, me and Carolina just rewatched the six-part OJ Simpson. OJ doc, "Made in America," which is fucking incredible. We just rewatched it this week after seeing the documentary about OJ's prank show, "Juiced," which was also really fucking good. Hell yeah, man. I'm two episodes in. It's a blast. How amazing it is. Oh, my. As a Florida guy, I would imagine. Oh, yeah, yeah. I can't believe I wasn't, like, there, like, writing for him. Yeah. You were very close. It was very close. I just missed it. I mean, I know it was all shot in L.A. and Vegas, but it just has a Florida flavor throughout. But I couldn't help but be reminded of Clifford Olsen over and over again when people talked about OJ. When O.J. would speak himself, when he would defend himself, like it just I just kept hearing Clifford Olson every fucking time. And I think O.J.'s specific abilities attach to American ideals, just like Clifford Olson's attached to Canadian ideals. Very much so. Like they're both incredibly socially intelligent men. Because we love what the idea of O.J. Simpson in America. We loved O.J. Simpson. Everyone loved him. Yes. Yeah. Unbelievable. I mean, they could have gone alone. Yeah. I mean, people would say over and over again, even after O.J.'s murder and civil trials, that despite any preconceived notions they might have had about O.J., you couldn't help but like him after you were in his presence. And it would take a short amount of time for you to be like, O.J., you're great. You're awesome. Like, have you seen that clip of him on The Wendy Williams Show? Like, she starts off being like, oh, man, like, I don't know, O.J. like starts off not being nice to him. And at the end of it, she's like, you should come to O.J. You should come to a party at my house. Like, you're great. O.J., you got me. If you look at, I remember when we were staying at that hotel that turned about to be one of O.J. Simpson's like big haunts. And you look through the Instagram of that account. It was endless pictures of O.J. with smiling blonde women grabbing their waists. It was like hanging out all night. And you're like, he just can somehow just turn it on. He just, once you get into his presence and he's one on, especially if he's one on one with you, it's done. That's why you have to keep these kinds of guys at it. Fucking arms distance. Always. He has such a friendly face. Yeah. And that also, that really helps. And that's what they said about Clifford Olsen, too. They said he was, he was handsome. In a Canadian way. In a Canadian way. He looks like my dog nanny. Oh, yeah. He does look like Max. Yeah, he actually does. But concerning O.J., people would say that they wouldn't necessarily forget that he was a double murderer when they were talking to him. But O.J. could easily disarm almost anyone he came across. Like, people would think, like, yeah, he's a double murderer, but he's not going to double murder me. It's impossible. Yeah. You know, I thought his wife was like, he was angry. They started, like, making excuses. All of a sudden, you're making excuses for him. Totally. By the end of the conversation, people would say they'd happy thinking that O.J. was actually the victim in all of this. Quite unfortunately, Clifford Olsen had that exact same talent in spades. And he would use it to commit absolutely horrific crimes every single time he found himself outside the prison walls. He never had a stretch of good behavior. Never. Never, ever, ever. This is different, also different, Clifford Olsen versus other serial killers we've ever covered. And the fact that his criminal activity never stopped. Even if he wasn't murdering and raping, he was running scams. He was doing all this. He just never stopped. It's like H.H. Holmes. Yeah. The most, I think, it seems like from what I've read, the most he made it. Yeah. It was like a week. Once. Yeah. Man, there wasn't a crime. He did every crime, it seems like. Every crime. Every crime. Every crime. He was addicted to crime. Yeah. Live from Northland. Now, concerning Clifford's charm, he used the psychologist's report to get paroled from his seven-year sentence 38 months early. And this was despite the fact that he'd escaped prison multiple times and had proven to be a habitual criminal both in and out of prison. I just got to say, officially, yes, I'm 88. But also, I'm a little stinker. And he said, I've got little stinker disease. You know, in Canada, a little stinker, you can actually get disability for being a little stinker. Yeah, I'm always, I'm knocking over paint buckets. I'm stealing apples. It's just crazy for me out here. Yeah, now we're going to let you out 38 months early, but don't think that we're not going to miss you. Don't worry, I'll come back for the talent show. I'll come back for the Christmas party. I feel like I never left. But even though Clifford's parole officer naively believed that he could be rehabilitated, even went so far as to get him a job in construction, Olsen immediately returned to a life of crime upon his release. In fact, he missed several daily parole appointments before his first week out of prison was even over. No way. And so his parole officer recommended revoking Clifford's parole after seeing for himself that Clifford simply could not function as a productive member of the family. Olsen, meanwhile, was soon arrested for stealing rare coins and passing bad checks. So revoking his parole was sort of a moot point anyway. He was also in the middle of a scheme that had involved him ordering and stealing 50 pairs of women's underwear and 30 bras. But he was arrested before his plans for the undergarments could come to fruition. We therefore have no fucking clue what he planned to do with all that women's wear. I'm going to sew them all together to dress the Canadians. And Canada's biggest woman. Who the God knows? He's probably another scam. He's just selling stuff to sell to those all weird fucking dumb shit. Anything that came across his plate, he took a swing at it, it seems like. Always. And so Clifford was sent back to prison at the age of 33. He had now spent half his life behind bars. But even though he proved himself to be an incorrigible criminal, he was paroled again in April of 1973 and sent to a halfway house. Clifford, however, didn't like the halfway house setup. So he charmed. And so Clifford found his way into being allowed to live with his sister, Sharon. Sharon agreed, but only under the condition, and she said this to him explicitly, that he'd not molest her children. Absolutely. I can't even imagine why you'd think I could even think of doing something like that. That's the one thing I will not do. Which room is theirs? I just gotta know. So if I know if they're sleeping, is it like. Or is it like. Like a long pause between their breaths. I just wanna know. I have ADHD. I don't know. I just wanna know which room they're in so I know which one you're not going to. Clifford, of course, broke his promise to not molest his sister's kids immediately. I have ADHD. I just. I forgot that you told me. Because, you know, with ADHD, it's. I got a lot of memory problems. I gave lack of permanence. You said not to? Yeah. I thought you said to do. I heard. I didn't. I missed the not. I thought you said make sure to not miss molesting my children. Well, within a few months, he left Sharon's house to embark on one of his many cross-Canadian crime sprees. Except Clifford was now including teenage accomplices. This would become a frequent pattern with Clifford. He'd pick up a teenage girl or boy off the street, charm them into thinking he was a good guy, who had it all figured out, then whisked them away for crime sprees while carrying on illegal and immoral sexual relationships with said teenagers. Clifford Olsen would sometimes even put together tiny three-person gangs, like he did in the summer of 1973. After getting kicked out of his sister's place, Clifford picked up a 14-year-old boy named Glenn, and the two of them quickly began a sexual relationship. The two of them then approached a 19-year-old named Evelyn Gagnon at a bus stop in Saskatoon. And. Just. Something about Saskatoon is just. Well, it's just, it's these. It's this Evelyn Gagnon from Saskatoon. It just. It sounds like I'm just making shit up. It does. And after offering her a ride, which soon turned into a meal, Evelyn found herself in a motel room with Clifford and Glenn. Clifford, however, was using an alias. Evelyn knew him at first as Ronnie Thomas, which is somehow both a fantastic and horrible assumed name all at the same time. It really is, and I don't know why. It's because it sounds fake. But it's distracting. It's Rob Thomas' brother. Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. That's what I was trying to think. I was like, what does that remind me of? I was like. Ronald Thomas. Ronald Thomas. Yeah, people call me Ronnie. People know me best. Hmm. Ronnie Thomas. Ronnie Thomas. Hi, Ronnie Thomas. Nice to meet ya. It works great. Yeah, Ronald Thomas. It sort of has the same cadence as my name. Ronald Thomas, Marcus Parks. Yeah, it does. It's got that same sort of thing. It works great for you. Now, while the story of Clifford, Glenn, and Evelyn does not end in murder, it is extremely illustrative in showing that while Clifford Olsen was a master at controlling people, he learned these skills little by little. Every encounter, however, is darker than the one that came before, until it finally does end in murder. But, nevertheless, the evolution of Clifford Olsen as a controller is fucking fascinating. And very important to pay attention to. He is a developing predator. Yeah. He is a. A thing that you see a lot. I think that we're seeing a lot of it right now. And, again, I just want to remind. These are warnings. These are like. I'm saying all this as like warning signs to be like, look out for this shit. The key is like, I don't know who all listens to our show. Just remember, if anybody 30 or over is talking to you and you are under the age of 18, that person is a fucking loser. Yeah. Well, okay. Not just. You can talk to them, but if they're trying to. Yeah, but I mean, I'm talking about trying to fuck you. That's what I mean. Oh, God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're trying to fuck you. They are a loser. Yes. They're an absolute loser. People their age don't want to fuck them. Yes. Yes, exactly. So, after picking up Evelyn, Clifford had her and Glenn spend three days in a motel with him before they all went out on the road together. Clifford, of course, was having a sexual relationship with both of his companions throughout his latest cross-country crime spree. But notice that I said companions and not accomplices. I actually sort of misspoke earlier when I said accomplices. So, while Evelyn suspected that Olsen was committing theft everywhere they went, he'd disappear for hours, then return with wads of. cash without explanation. Evelyn didn't question Clifford because she was fucking dazzled by Olsen's charisma. Olsen was very good at impressing teenagers. And he told these kids that he owned racehorses, he owned apartment buildings, he was a big shot. But eventually, I suppose Olsen got bored with his little trio. He put Glenn on a train to Toronto and Evelyn went to stay with a boyfriend in Vancouver. Now, Olsen must have regretted this decision because he soon went back to Toronto to get Glenn. Where'd I put that Glenn? But Glenn had told his caretakers what had been going on between him and Clifford. So the police were waiting to arrest Clifford for sodomizing a 14-year-old upon Clifford's arrival in Toronto. For once, the cops were ready for Olsen and they caught him when he tried the rabbit routine. But, incredibly, Clifford's own mother bailed him out of jail for the sodomy charge and Olsen was free to continue his 1973 spree. This would become another common pattern. Olsen would be arrested for sexual assault. Or molestation. But would somehow avoid conviction every single time. In fact, he avoided trials while he was in prison for the murders. This is how incredible it is. Clifford would actually threaten to sue journalists who called him a sex criminal. Because he was never technically convicted for sex crimes. Even though he was convicted as a serial killer. Yeah, I'm struggling because during this time period, we see this, we saw this when we were covering Jimmy Savile. There is like, it really can't be said enough how not seriously police took crimes against children and against women for a very, very, very long time. Still! I mean, yeah, that's kind of like the saddest part is that we're reverting. We're just going back. But it's just this idea of like, because they wanted so much evidence for it to be real. And mainly it's just because, again, how many times we've talked about it is that it's because it was icky. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think they wanted it. They want to deal with it. And then no one, and then a lot of, especially in this system, they straight up just don't want to believe that an adult would purposely predate and fuck children. They have this idea of like, well, people don't do that. Yeah, it's too much. That stuff may happen down in America, but down in the States. It don't happen here. Not in Canada. Yeah. And I think it's what, his mother rather was, you know, she was oddly okay with the sodomy charge because, you know, it's in the Bible. Well, yeah, but that's another one of you missed the not part. That's part, yeah. So after making bail, Olsen gave up on Glenn and drove to Vancouver to pick up his other teenage companion, Evelyn Gagnon, so he could continue his criminal tour across Canada with a little company. Olsen would commit a crime in, say, Edmonton while Evelyn waited in a hotel room. And although Clifford would never tell her what he was doing, he would routinely return saying, we got to go right fucking now. And they'd be off to Victoria or Calgary. By November, though, Evelyn and Clifford decided to take a rest with Evelyn's grandmother. And Clifford apparently got along with the grandmother like a house on fire. See, Olsen was extremely talented at getting the elderly to trust him with lightning speed. But this was only because the elderly, and specifically elderly women, were reliable scam targets for Clifford Olsen. One of Olsen's favorite scams with the elderly involved finding apartment buildings that were populated mostly by old people. And after looking at the building directory, Clifford would pick a name. Say, Catherine. Catherine Gustafson. An apartment 3G. And Clifford would then go to a different old lady's apartment and knock on the door. When the mark answered, Clifford would say he was Mrs. Gustafson's grandson. Like, oh, you know Catherine. She's over in 3G. I'm just visiting. The only thing Clifford needed from this old lady was change for a 20, which, very innocent. Yeah, sure. Once the old lady agreed and invited Clifford inside, he'd ask for a glass of water. And when the mark left the room to get the water, Olsen would rifle through the old lady's purse. And steal everything he could stuff into his pockets. Because that's the thing. In order to give change for the 20, you gotta bring out the purse. So he had her actually bring her purse to him. And if no one was home, Clifford would just break into the apartment and search the place for rainy day funds. Because he'd learn the most likely places where an old Canadian might hide their money. For some reason, it was usually hidden in jars. And Olsen stole many an elderly Canadian's nest egg by sniffing out. These money jars. You know what the first thing that hits me is that because it's such low-level crimes for such little money, that this is actually connected to murder and rape. That this is about violation. It's about getting into somebody's apartment. Very much so. Yes, he's saying to himself, this is for money. But it's really about lying, gaining access to the inside. Because how many serial killers are peeping toms? They do Bayes and A's. That's Canadian for breaking. And entering. Oh, Bayes and A's. Bayes and A's. Yeah, and once you get in there, you case the joint. And you come back later and do something else horrible. But he didn't even do that. He was building up. This is all the stuff that was building up the froth. Yeah, it's all very manic. It's just going from one place to the next, to the next, to the next. And it really is. It's all about power and control. And him looking at the world as his playground. He looks at the world like. He seriously looks at it like we would going into a GTA game. Going in a Grand Theft Auto game and saying like, okay, I'm going to play evil. And that's how he lived his life. Do you think, like, did he assault the elderly too? Or is it just stealing from them? Just stealing, yeah. As far as I know, it was just stealing. When it came to assault, he saved that for young women, young boys, and children. So, Olsen's friendship with Evelyn's grandmother. Thanks, Marcus. Just answering questions. I mean, he also assaulted men in prison. Yes, he assaulted men in prison as well. Ever the completionist. So, Olsen's friendship with Evelyn's grandmother ended when Olsen stole $2,700 of the grandmother's money. And this is, that's $2,700 in 1964 money. Yeah, 2,700 loonies is like 35 pounds. Now, Evelyn had no idea that Clifford had done this. But when she spoke to her mother after she and Clifford left Winnipeg, Evelyn was told of the theft. And she was told that everyone was pretty sure Clifford was the thief. Now, after getting this information, Evelyn found herself faced with an extraordinary internal conflict. And this was all due to Clifford's advanced skills as a narcissistic manipulator. The way Evelyn talked about her struggle with this information, it sounds very similar to the struggle O.J. Simpson's friends went through after he was charged with the murders of Ron and Nicole. See, Evelyn couldn't believe that Clifford, had done such a horrible thing. Because even though she'd seen signs that he might be a criminal, Clifford had manipulated and charmed her into thinking that he was a good guy who was just misunderstood. Evelyn, therefore, did not want to believe the accusations. And she wasn't alone in this. Nobody who got close to Clifford ever wanted to believe Clifford was a bad guy. But this was by Clifford's own design. He knew that people wanted to believe the best in him. And he took advantage of that hope at every moment. Every fucking turn. Clifford's future wife put it best when she said that Clifford had a magnetism that everyone felt. But his charisma was especially potent with women and children. Even animals were naturally drawn to Clifford. Clifford's future wife added that when people who knew Clifford in the 60s and 70s spoke about him, even after he was convicted of the brutal murders of 11 underage kids, they almost always started smiling and remembering what she called the fact that Clifford was a good guy. They didn't mention or even think about the thefts, the rapes, or the abuse that they themselves suffered at his hands. Instead, they remembered the hangouts, the jokes, the personality. And this, Clifford's wife said, was what was truly frightening about Clifford Olsen. He's like an evil cartoon character. Yeah, he very much is. Kind of all sounds like hanging out at the store. Now, the other aspect of Evelyn's relationship with Clifford is that Evelyn Gagnon had experienced the sudden changes in demeanor that narcissists use to control people. So while she did want to believe the best in Clifford, she was also absolutely fucking terrified of him. People who were close with O.J. Simpson described this same dichotomy, saying that O.J. could turn on you with breakneck speed if you said something that challenged him or made him angry. And that's a feature. That's like a thing that he did. That's how he holds power. Oh, yeah. Well, it's just. This is Narcissism 101. One minute, he was O.J. Friendly, loving, generous, best friend you could ever have. But if you said the wrong thing, it would take less than a second for O.J. to turn from the most affable person on Earth into the very embodiment of rage. And then, just as quickly, that rage would turn off and he would suddenly be O.J. again. By this point, you'd be so grateful that the rage was gone that you would be the one apologizing to him. This, as I said, is Narcissism 101. Narcissism 101. And Clifford Olsen would use those exact same tactics to keep the people close to him in line and constantly off balance so he could get away with it, whatever the fuck he wanted. Because they can't hold the two. They can't hold Goofy Clifford and Serial Killer Clifford in their brains at once. No. We're just not fucking built for that. Humans aren't built to hold that. It's one or the other. And being so off balance all the time, it's fucking impossible. Impossible. and throw a fucking grenade at him. Blow him up. Yeah, the hammer only made him worse. Yeah, the hammer gave him ideas. Now, even though Evelyn was scared to question Clifford, she finally confronted him about robbing her grandmother while the two of them were riding a bus to the next Canadian city. But when Evelyn honestly asked Clifford if he had anything to do with the missing money, Olsen pulled out another trusty play from the narcissist handbook by acting wounded. He asked, quote, How can you even think such a thing? Would I, Clifford Olsen, of Edmonton, Toronto, Vancouver, Canada's Clifford Olsen, would I do that? But because Evelyn was even asking questions, Olsen knew that his narcissistic spells were losing their power. Clifford, however, had not yet come to see murder as a way to solve his problems. There's still about eight years away from that. So he instead simply chose to leave her before she could leave him. After trying to make her feel like she was the bad person here, he got off at the next bus stop and never saw Evelyn again. The spell, however, was indeed broken, and Evelyn soon told the RCMP everything she knew about Clifford Olsen. By January of 1974, Clifford was arrested again and convicted on eight counts of theft, fraud, and forgery. But there were no convictions for sexual assault, despite the fact that Clifford had raped multiple minors during this particular, particular stretch of freedom. Do you think there was just like, that's too hard to convict, we can definitely get him on this other shit type of deal? Always. Literally, it's always, it's always this idea of like, they don't want to take any of that seriously, they don't take the children's words seriously, they don't take any, you know. Well, it's also the, there's also the fact that sexual assault victims are very reticent to testify. You know, the kid Glenn, the 14-year-old, yeah, it's, they, they just don't want to go out in public and say those things, that these things happen to them. It's traumatic. It's traumatic and it's humiliating. It's horrific. Now, once Clifford was sent back to prison, his reputation as a snitch made life dangerous amongst other prisoners. During a prison poker game, for example, Olsen got into a fight with some fellow inmates and was stabbed in the back twice with a pair of scissors. Now, was the scissors open? Or was he standing close? They were close. Yeah, they were close. Otherwise, that would be, that would be, that would be four puncture wounds. Okay, I just want to make sure I know what's going on here. Yeah, yeah. But instead of taking his lump, Olsen spilled the beans on everything he knew, not just about illicit gambling within the prison, but any and all drug deals that he'd been privy to. Then he got his attackers charged with attempted murder. According to the RCMP, they couldn't remember an inmate who'd done so much snitching all at once. And that's how we knew we were doing our job right. We were really inspiring them to do what's right, which is snitch, snitch, snitch all day long. Like a little fucking evil whore. Snitch, snitch, snitch. The phrase in that snitching that was over and over again was, and I'll tell you another thing. And that reminds me. Therefore, he's toward. Olsen also used the stabbings to his every advantage. He weaseled $3,500 out of something called the Saskatchewan Criminal Injuries Compensation Board. This is so fucking Canadian. Yeah. The board's chairman even declared Clifford Olsen's conduct as above reproach, adding that Olsen's squeals had indicated an unusual degree of moral and physical courage. I always found prison snitches to always be bastions of bravery and power of this wonderful country. Oh, I love them. Well, those statements were, of course, used in Clifford's future parole hearings to once again obtain early release. You know, I hate America's prison system. Of course. But I feel like we would have stopped him. At some point, we would have been like, all right, somebody just stab him to death. That's what I keep saying. There's a middle ground to be found here. There's definitely a middle ground to be found between America's over-incarceration and over-policing and Canada's like. Giving this guy money. The prison system just giving him money. What do you think we ought to give him? Three grand? Yeah. Make it $3,500. Actually, yeah. That's real. Give him $3,500. Give him some walking around money, you know? But interestingly, Clifford's snitch spree did achieve its intended purpose. Other inmates saw that messing with Olsen was extremely risky because Olsen was now under protection of the biggest gang of all, the RCMP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. My theory is that this is what he was trying to do the whole time. Yeah. He was just trying to get the police on his side. And so Olsen figured out that his snitch relationship with the RCMP was the most valuable relationship in his life. So he started going above and beyond to solidify that relationship. Eventually, Clifford Olsen actually played a key role in helping the RCMP in obtaining a legitimate murder conviction. See, after the poker game stabbing, Clifford had been put into protective custody. So he found himself in a cell next to another protected man named Gary Marco. Marco was a known skinner. Because he'd already been sentenced to prison for raping his 18-year-old sister and attempting to rape his 2-year-old sister. The thing is, no one wants to hear this. I feel like I should be celebrated for just keeping it in the family. You know, it was just right there. It's local crimes. Yeah, local crimes are better, are they? Yeah, keeping it local. I kept my footprint, my pollution footprint very small. Oh, your carbon footprint's smaller. My carbon footprint's very small. Very small. It's right here in the living room. Yeah, in fact, my carbon footprint was even, I even wiped it off before I came in the house. While Marco was out on parole for those crimes, it was alleged that he had raped and murdered a 9-year-old girl named Jeanne Duve. Because the last time Duve had been seen alive, she was with Gary Marco. But even so, the prosecution's case was weak. Too weak to guarantee a conviction. And so, all on his own accord, nobody asked him to do this. Clifford Olson saw an opportunity to be useful and an opportunity to bring him closer to the RCMP. He and Marco had actually met back in 1961. So the two sex offenders became fast friends in protective custody. Before long, Olson had gotten Marco to go into detail about what he'd done to Jeanne Duve. And Olson was taking detailed notes the entire time. So yeah, first things first, you know, I pinned her arms in the back. What are you doing in there? Nothing. What else did you do to her? Fascinating. Is it a comically big pencil? It's just because you have the same interests as someone, you can't trust them. You're right, Eddie. That's very true. Yeah, no, just because they also like Led Zeppelin, that doesn't mean they're your friend. But I honestly feel like it's closer to being your friend if it's Led Zeppelin and not pedophilia. I feel like if pedophilia's what's joining you all together, that's definitely not great. But I do think that Scrabble can bring a group together in a way that's like, nice. Yeah. You're both making good points. Thank you. Now, Clifford Olson discovered that by the time he got to his prison cell, Gary Marco had convinced himself that he hadn't actually murdered this child. Gary Marco claimed that while, yes, he had kidnapped her and he had tied her to a tree and he had raped her, she had actually strangled herself to death. Accidentally. While he was cleaning up the car he'd used in the abduction. Fight a nickel? He did, however, admit to masturbating on the body after she was dead because at that point, you know, why not? Now I'm here. Yeah. I guess. There wasn't enough evidence before. Yeah. And a little bit of me on there. Yeah. Now, as soon as Olson got the confession, he sent his notes to the attorney general and swore an affidavit that the notes were legit. And using Olson's notes, the state was, was able to bring a far stronger murder case against Gary Marco. Gary, however, didn't know that Clifford Olson was the star witness in his trial until Clifford showed up in court to testify for the crown against Gary, which I'm sure broke Gary's little child murdering heart. Bad boys, bad boys. What you gonna do? What you gonna do when they come for you? It's me, I got you. I got you. You know, when Clifford walked in, Gary's like, God damn it, I can't. I told him everything. That's the worst guy to be in here. And he pinky swore to me that he wouldn't tell nobody else. Well, actually, we can use that pinky swear in Canadian court. That does hold up as a contract in this wonderful land. Objection, my client. Pinky swore with the testifier that he wouldn't say. I don't even know why we're having this trial. All right, Mr. Marco, here's your $3,500. Here's your Canadian dollars and we'll see you on your way. Have a nice time in Vancouver. Oh, by the way, just so you know, my niece is visiting. You should take her out to lunch. Take her to the park. Now, the Crown might not have gotten the conviction without Clifford Olson. So Olson made sure that any and all authority figures he came across knew that he had done them a favor. As a result, Clifford, again, got early parole. But after his time with Gary Marco, "It seems like something changed. It's like a switch had been flicked on in Clifford's head. Perhaps Gary Marco's accounts of raping and murdering a little girl had gotten Clifford Olsen excited, or perhaps it had given him ideas that he had not yet entertained. But either way, when Clifford Olsen was released once again in 1977, after Gary's conviction, Clifford's so-called adventures took on a far, far darker tone. I think that he had it in the back of his mind as a thing he wanted to do. And he think that he was talking. Or even a thing that he could do. Yes, I think he was toying with it. And I think that what he realized was that the more I help them convict other child molesters and murderers, the more I can do it myself. Oh, of course. That's another thing with the narcissist fucking playbook, is that it's about. Well, no, it's about banking. Yeah. It's about banking and setting up other people for when you need them. You know, it's like that fucking elephant's graveyard thing. Like, you know that guy that was on Rogan's like, yeah, you know, when they come for you, when you get canceled, you want that somebody on your side, you know, when it happens to you. And he's like, no, you're saying that because you know it's going to happen to you. Most people don't need that. Yeah, you should just not let it happen to you. You should just not do it. By being a good person. Exactly. But that's really difficult, Eddie. All I want to do is grab and grab and grab. Grab and grab. Now, while prison had given Clifford the idea to use a hammer as a humane method of murder, it had also given him the main tool he would use not just as a serial rapist, but as a serial killer who focused on underage teenagers. See, Clifford had insomnia, so the prison infirmary gave him a strong sedative named chloral hydrate to help him sleep. Clifford soon discovered that mixing chloral hydrate pills with alcohol caused a person to pass out hard and fast. Noted. Well, we already knew this. Because Jeffrey Dahmer, we knew this because Jeffrey Dahmer had used a mixture of halcyon pills and beer to subdue his victims. But while Dahmer at the very least felt guilt over his murders and used the drugs to get through the act of murder so he could obtain his ultimate goal of a dead body, Clifford Olson was gleeful in his use of chloral hydrate. Effectively, chloral hydrate turned people into living unconscious sex dolls who could be easily disposed of once Clifford Olson was done with them. Clifford Olson was so glib about his actions that he even had a nickname for his combo of pills and booze. Because chloral hydrate pills were green, Clifford referred to the combination of chloral hydrate and alcohol as the green machine. Which, you know, it. It doesn't make sense. A machine that you would expect to be powerful and turn it on. It's a Canadian thing. But that's the thing. Canadians are really fucking funny. They are. They're very funny and very clever. But the one thing I will say about. Honestly, this is just one. Again, love. I do love Canada. I love Canadians. Yeah, yeah. They're bad at naming things. Yeah, Winnipeg. Yeah, not even the. Not the towns. It's more like the things. Do you know Banff? Do you want to go to Banff? Like, there's places that you go to with, like, you know, like. I forgot there was, like, a place called, like, like, Blinky's and, like, they have, like, stuff like that. It's, like, it's a bad name for restaurants. The comedy club's called Yuck Yucks. Yeah. That's fucking aggravating. By the way, I'm available. Yeah, please. Please book me. Now, about two weeks after Clifford Olsen was released from prison in 1977, he was giving a friend of his a ride to a town west of Vancouver when the two guys came across a 23-year-old woman named Debbie. Debbie would be picked up just like Evelyn, but perhaps due to the influence of Gary Marko, Debbie's misadventures with Clifford would turn into a harrowing ordeal that would absolutely destroy Debbie for years to come. So, after Clifford dropped off his friend, he gave Debbie beers spiked with chloral hydrate pills, and after checking into a hotel, Clifford raped her while she was still unconscious. Debbie was younger than she looked and could easily pass for 10 years younger. So, Clifford actually thought he was raping a 13-year-old. But even though Clifford was actually disappointed that Debbie was not underage, he kept her around for another cross-Canadian crime spree, but things with Debbie got a hell of a lot darker. I wouldn't say they kept her around, I would say more kidnapped, abducted, and forced her to come with him. Yeah, she was his hostage. While Evelyn was subjected to a pure charm offensive, Debbie was kept drugged out using chloral hydrate and LSD. She was full of acid this whole fucking time. The drugs combined with Clifford's charm and his constantly shifting moods kept Debbie incredibly disoriented and constantly off balance. Debbie said that Clifford quickly became brutal and demanding. He would jump from topic to topic at random while shifting between moods at an erratic pace. And when his demeanor changed, so would his face and his voice. She said that Olsen acted like a man possessed, barely in control. So, Debbie was constantly alternating between states of terror and bewilderment. When she resisted any sexual advance, he would get rough, slap her around, and eventually get his way through the door. She would go through rape regardless. So, Debbie came to feel totally helpless, believing that her only defense was total submission. This, incredibly, all happened within days of meeting Clifford Olsen. You know what it reminds me of, and it makes me sad that it reminds me of that? What's that? Christina Ricci in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You like the big fuckers, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You like the big fuckers. It reminds the hell of me of that. Now I'm sad. Now I'm sad. Good work. Good work. Good work. Debbie did try to make a break for it, but Clifford told her that he would have her and her entire family killed by the mafia if she ever tried escaping again. That's a Gacy tactic. Oh, yeah. Gacy was doing that with the kids back in Iowa before he even went to prison for, you know, raping those kids. But true to narcissistic form, Debbie said that Olsen would threaten her family with mob retribution one minute. Then the very next. Then the very next turn on the charm, saying something like, so, if you like Chinese tonight, how about some noodles? Does that sound good? You know, it's just back and forth, back and forth. And, you know, I could kill your family at any moment, but, you know, wonton soup's my favorite. What about you? I will say I would take some wonton soup in the time period if we're asking. You know what I mean? I know it's all, everything's bad, all this stuff's bad, but if we are asking, it's pimp shit. Yeah, it is. Eventually, Debbie came to expect these wild swings in demeanor. One time. One time, Clifford ordered Debbie to take a bath, but once he soaped her up, he urinated on her and scrubbed her down with tub water that was now half piss. Then the next day, he'd be charming again. He'd vow to help her out of any bad situation she ever got into, which, of course, implied, heavily implied, that her current situation with Clifford was not a bad one. It was actually a good one. It implied things could get a lot fucking worse. Yeah. And if you. If you like bathing in piss, this is the place to be. Yeah, you're right, Eddie. Yeah. Yes. If you're a Canadian woman looking to be covered in piss, besides just being Rob Ford's assistant, this is another thing you could do. Yeah. After weeks of this, in which Debbie spent most of her time drugged by chloral hydrate and LSD against her will, Clifford Olsen decided to introduce Debbie to his sister Sharon and her kids. That's too soon. This is the big crime. Yeah. This is the same sister who had made Clifford promise to not molest her kids. A promise Clifford broke. But such was both the charm and the terror of Clifford Olsen. Tellingly, Sharon took Debbie aside one night during this visit and told her that she should not go out with Clifford because Clifford was a dangerous man. Isn't he currently visiting you? Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I don't want him here, but still, he's here. It tells you everything you need to know. Sharon seemingly didn't know the full extent of the situation when she said that, but I'm sure she figured it out when Clifford got angry at Debbie one night and raped her with Sharon right there in the fucking room. But instead of going to the cops, Clifford's sister Sharon instead took Debbie to a doctor the next day, while Olsen said he had to go out for, quote, an appointment at the bank. Oh, man. He must be horrible at the bank. I hate the bank. I hate the fucking bank. Let's not talk about the bank. The doctor, however, quite unhelpfully just prescribed tranquilizers, which was the last thing Debbie needed at this point. All I'm hearing is a lot of yap, yap, yap, yap. What I need from you is a lot more. Are you sure you wouldn't feel a lot better if you didn't just shut the fuck up and stop bothering me? Oh, I didn't think of that. Take these, fall asleep, or I'm going to zap your brain. You want that? You want that? Well, when Olsen returned from his so-called appointment at the bank, he had purchased or stolen a video camera, which he used to record Debbie in compromising situations. This, as it goes with any serial killer who ever owned a fucking camera, has led to speculation that Olsen was involved in pornography and may have made and sold snuff films. There is, however, no evidence that he ever videotaped any of his murders, much less any evidence that he contacted a distributor. To sell videos depicting his horrific crimes. And there really is none. There is none. There's no evidence that he hid the tapes. There's no evidence that there ever was tapes. No, no, no. I mean, it's. It's different when you're talking about, you know, what's the RC Balmeister, Herb Balmeister. Yeah, that's evidence that he may have been involved in snuff films. And yeah, and the horse thing as well. That's that's different. But what the horse thing is showing us is that you kind of actually have to be in pornography already to get that stuff out there. Of course. Yeah, of course. That's how like when you look at CSAM material, the way that's shared, it's a lot of it's a lot of it's shared in WhatsApps and like group things that you get invited to. And then kind of what they do is they'll sandwich bad stuff. I don't like the term that I just used. Sandwich. Yeah. I don't know if sandwich is a good term for it, like a compliment sandwich, but with child porn. So I think that if you go into it, because I like all sandwiches, but not that sandwich. I've never ordered that sandwich. I don't even know how to order that sandwich. It's on your desk. It's not in Publix. I'll tell you that much. Unfortunately, it is a Jimmy John's. But it's like, that's what they do. So it's like, you'll get. Yeah, you got your CSAM that you want. But a lot of the walls will have bestiality and like stuff like that all buried in within it. Yeah. Now, while you might again say Sharon should have gone to the cops. She was obviously terrified of what her brother might do to her and her kids. She was fucked up. She had no idea what the fuck to do. Yeah. Well, I mean, the thing is, she did do what she could. She tried to help Debbie by contacting a social worker. Worker agency on Debbie's behalf. But the social worker agency did have like the worst fucking name. It was called the burden bearers. Oh, hey, I got a burden here. I really need somebody to bear this. I don't like the burden bearers. Everything doesn't need a cute name. It doesn't help people. Well, it's not even a cute name. It's an insulting name. It's like, if you're going here, it's like, you know what? I got a burden. I can't bear it. I need you to bear this burden for me. Well, welcome to burden bearers where we bear burdens better than anybody. Everybody's bear burdens ever before. We're bearing burdens more than anybody's ever bear burdens. And bear burdens is one of our favorite things we do. We got a burden. If you got a burden, I like to have it. I'd like to bear that burden. I don't think anyone who works there was like told someone who gets raped all the time. I'll take this one. Yeah. You know, like that never fucking happened. You're not a burden bearer. Yeah, not a burden bearer. No, no. No, I've been bearing a burden for about three months now. So let me go get my burden out of the car. Gary. This is my burden. Gary, he's a burden. I need you to bear it. Gary, you know you're a burden. Come here, Gary. Take off your clothes. This is what we mean by bearing burdens. Get off. You're being naked. Now that we know that Gary's the problem, Gary's now the naked problem. This agency arranged for Debbie to stay with a German immigrant couple named Gunther and Giselle Kleinschmidt. And although the Kleinschmidt's did have somewhat good intentions, their gullibility at times bordered on criminal negligence. They just sound like two people that live in a giant. Wooden shoe. Oh, hello. Gunther Kleinschmidt here. You know, after a whole World War II kerfuffle, we realized we can't trust any of those German guys. So we're going to Canada where everyone's trustworthy. It's never going to be an issue at all. Ever. So the Kleinschmidt's were hardcore Christians. And since mistrust and hatred towards women is hardwired into fundamentalist Christianity, not all Christianity, but definitely fundamentalist Christianity. Gunther Kleinschmidt's were hardcore Christians. No police report was made. Not too long after, Olsen was also caught luring an intellectually disabled little girl to a motel. But thankfully, the girl's brother followed Olsen and also beat the shit out of them before Olsen could go through with his nefarious plan. See, street justice is fun, but it doesn't always work. No, it doesn't. No, it really doesn't, because the thing is that as far as he was concerned, he got away with it. He knows how to take a beating. Yeah, we know he likes pain. He enjoyed getting hit in the head with a hammer. Yeah, he does not care. He does not care. But even though Clifford had tried taking advantage of arguably the most vulnerable type of person in existence, no charges were filed for the incident at the motel. So Clifford fully plunged himself back into a life of crime. He picked up and raped hitchhikers using his so-called green machine. He stole from senior citizens and ran scam after scam. But it seems like Clifford was actually getting better. At avoiding arrest or even detection. Because no police reports from this time period named him specifically in any of the crimes he committed. Now, that's not to say there wasn't incompetence or laziness involved. He remained free even after being arrested and charged with robbery and kidnapping during this particular stretch of freedom. In fact, he was able to make it to the end of his mandatory probation check-in period. So by 1978, Olsen was free to travel anywhere he wanted. But lest ye think. Now that Clifford Olsen got away with all of this because he was committing all his crimes in Canada, it is time for us to now come down off of our high horse. Because it could be argued that he was actually more successful as a criminal when he embarked on his own little tour of the United States in the spring of 1978. Yeah, well, you know, that's the thing. A lot of Canadians come down to America to get good. And according to those sayings, we take all of them. You got your cynical Nathan Fielder. Yeah. You got your kids. You got your kids in the hall. We got them all. We took them. We stuck them. Katy Perry. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Gave her back. Oh, yeah. Gave her fucking back. We were done with her. Gave her back. No, they come here and, yeah, we ruin them. Yeah. Well, no, we sharpen them. Yeah, yeah. Jim Carrey's perfectly mentally healthy. He's great. He's great. Well, starting in New York City, Olsen scammed and defrauded his way across the country in the summer of 1978. But this shows you how good of a criminal he was. He was a con man. Olsen really was. Because New York City in 1978, I mean, I'm not telling anyone anything new here when I say it was fucking rough. Yeah. But Olsen managed to earn $5,000 committing scams just in New York City. Can I say, you know why? You know why I actually think that, honestly, it was a breeze for him? Because of the reaction your nephew got during your reaction, when your nephew. Yeah. When my nephew, Kellen, went to New York City for our wedding. Oh, my God. Marcus has got a very, he's got a, you know, young guy. He's 21, right? He's just like, just turned. No, yeah. I think he was, I think he's like 22, 23, but yeah, somewhere around there. Cowboy hat. Cowboy hat. High as fuck. Literally, young man, broad shoulder, just a cowboy hat, literally just going like, ma'am, made the Brooklyn, like the most cool Brooklyn ladies fall apart. Yeah. I have never seen a reaction of a group of women to that, to one singular man before in my life. He was dancing and they surrounded him in a circle, like they were all like, like they were surrounding, they were all choosing lionesses, choosing who's going to get it. Yeah. That rehearsal dinner was full of puddles. That was wild. So I can, I can see him with his Canadian goofball shtick. It's disarming. He arrives and he's just so like, oh, you know me, I am just a bumpkin up from Eddington and like, they're all. I'd probably be like, yeah, fuck this fucking guy. Yeah. This guy's fucking hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. He's cute. Give him money. Fuck this guy. I normally, a guy like you, I'd fucking shoot him in the head, but you, let's go get some pizza, buddy. I love you. I'm, this is Maria. Name my cousin Maria. Oh no. Kellen, like he closed down the turkey's nest. Yes. Like he walked in there, he fucking, but he was doing it very good naturedly. He was wonderful. Yeah. He was great. He actually left. He left. He left with nobody. He didn't do anything. But Clifford Olson saw that and he knew how to turn that shit on its head immediately. It's a whole disarming thing. And that's the thing. Using his charm, Olson's crime spree stretched from Youngstown, Ohio to Gary, Indiana, from Houston, Texas, all the way down to Florida. Wow. He committed rent scams and purse snatches. He'd impersonate bank tellers and convince people to just hand him their money. He'd pose it as an investor and then run off with people's life savings. Years later, Olson would even claim that he committed several murders in four American states during this jaunt. But personally, I don't think Olson committed his first murder until 1980. Olson did, however, claim that he had personally met and made friends with the Green River killer while he was in America. According to Olson, those murders were actually the work of his friend, Ronnie. Which is interesting because Ronnie Thomas was his pseudonym, which is like his fake name when he started all this crime stuff. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like he's blaming himself. Almost. But we do know it was Gary. Yeah. Oh, it was Gary. It was Gary. And we also know Gary was real bad at making friends. Gary was bad. He really was not the charmer, was he? But that's where Clifford comes in. Yeah, that's true. Now, while no cop in the United States came close to busting Clifford Olson during his summer spree of 1978, the RCMP were waiting for him when he crossed the border back into Alberta in September. His Vancouver warrants had finally caught up with him. But because Clifford Olson was apparently born with a fucking horseshoe stuck up his ass, he served far less time than he should have for his 1978 crimes. Because of a bookkeeping mistake, it was on record that Olson was in Canadian prison while he was going hog wild in America. Olson, therefore, actually got credit for time served. And as a result, he only spent a year in prison this time around. They're bad at it. They're just bad at it. You know, I was going to bring up a little mistake with the calendar, but actually, no, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good, actually. No, that's right, yeah. That's right. That's right. I was learning, oh yeah, that's where I was on the softball team. Yeah. Totally rehabbed. Rehabbed out the ass. But after being released in February 1980, Clifford Olson traveled to the town of Coquitlam outside of Vancouver. Eagle-eared listeners. Others might remember Coquitlam as the home of serial killer Robert Pickton, although as far as we know, the two men never crossed paths. They were different vibes, different scenes. Very much so. But in either Coquitlam or Vancouver, it's unclear, Olson met the woman who would become yet another poor soul in the long, sad parade of serial killer spouses that we've covered on this show. Her name was Joan Berryman, but out of all the wives who were tortured and abused by their serial killer husbands, Joan Berryman. Joan may have gotten it the worst. She's up there. Definitely. And the main reason why I told the stories of Evelyn and Debbie's experiences and having a so-called relationship with Clifford Olson is because I think both of those stories are key to understanding Clifford's dynamic with Joan Berryman. Because if you just start with Joan, it doesn't make any fucking sense at all. See, with both Evelyn and Debbie, Clifford Olson learned new techniques in manipulation and control. Each time. And his skills were at their absolute peak by the time he met Joan at the age of 40. It also helped that Joan was hopelessly naive, and Clifford used her inexperience to convince her that his way of living was normal. For example, the relationship, incredible as it may sound, it actually began with rape. Olson met Joan at a bar one night, and after drugging her, he took her to a hotel room. She woke up not wrong. She wasn't remembering anything, but she was absolutely horrified because she knew something had happened. See, Joan was in the middle of a divorce when she met Clifford, but her first marriage had ended after 21 years, and she hadn't even slept with anyone besides her husband. But Clifford knew exactly what to do and what to say to make her feel better. And within four days of meeting her, Clifford had convinced Joan to let him go. He was so happy that he had a chance to meet her. really uncomfortable she pretended yeah she knew what a blue job was i think so who explained it to her hopefully my father did joan actually didn't know like she was she really did not know she spent 21 years i think just spent 21 years as a housewife yeah uh never left the house and was just very very very naive extremely naive and all and also was not she just unfortunately some people just aren't that bright and joan just was not that bright but he knew but that's a part of why he flipped it into the cover relationship yeah you know i mean we're like she just wasn't like she just wasn't another rape of his yeah she was like he was like oh yes i can use her yeah very easy to control because she was so naive olsen was able to quickly integrate himself into her life by endlessly flattering her and making her feel loved olsen therefore had no problem taking over joan's life and after finding her to be unusually pliable he began involving her in his sex crimes he convinced her to rent hotel rooms for so-called parties but these parties were only attended by clifford joan and teenagers that clifford had picked up from the street paul berman shades of paul bernardo definitely sometimes it was just plain children that clifford brought back but no matter their age clifford would convince joan to pose nude with these kids before clifford raped the kids in the very same hotel room the only explanation i can figure out for this like because they say how naive she is how curiously unworldly she is the only explanation i can find is that clifford had somehow convinced joan that all of this was normal but just outside of joan's experience like this is how you know this is how things are in 1978 in 1980 you know this is it's the 80s come on get with it joan you know she also could have been in a dead marriage in a dead bed in a whole thing and the reason why now that he's he's love bombing her and giving her physical affection and doing an apparent physical affection with this and love all wrapped together i think that it creates a fake version of it exactly like this is this is a uh this is what we do this is kinky stuff like this is fun kinky stuff oh yeah crime no it's not crime no this is what you just joan you just haven't heard about it this is normal they've been doing this since the roman times joan even fucking idiots know not to get naked with children no it depends on how much convincing i don't know eddie i don't know you know but no matter how he managed it joan soon fell in love with clifford olsen now clifford decided to reconnect with the kleinschmidt's after meeting joan because the germans had proved to be useful in the past you don't want to let that tool get rusty gisella however had finally started to figure out that maybe this clifford guy wasn't really a christian tellingly she began forbidding clifford from spending any time alone with her daughter or any children at all but even though she wouldn't leave him alone with their kids the kleinschmidt's still went on fucking vacation with clifford and joan we didn't bring the kids that's how it used to be back in the fucking 80s like oh yeah yeah yeah no no he's one of my best friends wouldn't leave him alone with my son yeah we had a guy like that yeah but he but it's like you just get they people just accepted it as normal like oh yeah yeah he's a molester to be honest i think it's because of how often a lot of these people that generation got fucking molested and were told it was not a big deal yeah like you know my you know my mom's favorite favorite statement it's like when they molested me no one took me to an amusement park the way she drops getting molested is so like yeah we were all molested what you do you know what it is it's almost like um how they treat like a like you know don't pet a strange dog or like you know like a dog bites so you know like don't don't go around that dog because that dog bites it's like that's how they treat their molesting friends yeah it's fucking insane yeah he'll get you if you get too close to him he'll get at you now all these people went skiing together and clifford had of course told everyone that he was an expert skier but when he finally got on the slopes he wore no gloves his stomach was hanging out of the fucking t-shirt he was wearing and his ski boots were on the wrong feet i have adhd gizella said watching clifford ski was the most peculiar comical thing she had ever seen you can just see all the music and him going going through the the kids like he goes on the black diamond he's like shooting past it into the kids slopes i mean just lying about skiing is one thing but you should still know what foot the shoe goes on yeah that's at the bare minimum he wears shoes every day cartoon character i have executive dysfunction this of course was one of the last encounters the klein schmitz would ever have with clifford olsen apparently him lying about skiing that's just a bridge too far that is a german mortal sin you cannot do it you know what i think it was though as i i think with all of the other lies that he told there was a lot of he said she said involved in it and i think when they saw how much he built himself up to be this expert skier and they saw like oh he doesn't even know which foot the boots go on they finally realized like oh i think he's been lying about everything it's just so bizarre that he is such a good liar yeah and he chose this lie yeah well this shows the pathological nature of it he shows his true psychopathy he is living in a fantasy world 24 7 yeah and it shows the narcissism too because i would not be surprised if he was thinking in his head like how hard can it be like yeah yeah it's like i can of course like i'm yeah it's not hard to ski i'm gonna get out there and i'm gonna show him everything like i don't have to know anything about this i'm just gonna know clifford olsen the world's expert at everything yeah now as it had been with debbie and evelyn olsen used his shifting moods to keep joan constantly on edge but joan was also desperate to do anything to keep olsen happy and this also might go some way towards her participation in crimes his rage with joan was soon paired with violence hitting and slapping and it was escalating at a rapid pace for example when joan expressed the tiniest bit of displeasure towards clifford for bringing drugged teenagers of all genders into their home so he could rape them she'd just say like i don't like that clifford he threatened her with a knife threatened to kill her with a knife but the next day he turned the charm back on and apologized profusely then he would talk her into having sex with him since olsen had been running scams and committing robbery from the moment he'd last been released from prison his parole was revoked yet again as far as how the cops got him this time it was a combination of hubris and dumb luck see the canadian government was shutting down the old british columbia penitentiary and it briefly opened the facility to the public clifford had done time there so he took joan and his mother on a tour of the prison to show them his old jail cells oh my god that is just wild to just be like yeah there was we raped him over there and over there and over there is where we're at first time i had salisbury steak over years where i won the first ever egg race the serpentine race well clifford olsen waxed nostalgically about the stretch he'd done at bcp a guard who was still on duty recognized clifford olsen and after checking to see if olsen had any outstanding warrants the guard arrested olsen then and there just you bring your girlfriend your mother to see your old prison is just that is literally a trailer park boys that is a plot line out of trailer park it is yeah i want to bring julie to tallahassee one day to show her around yeah i'd be like this is where i but then you'd be like this is where i sold weed yeah yeah sold weed over here yeah well i guess it's very similar now this is just another short stint in jail in jail lasting only a few weeks but joan had already accepted that this life with clifford this was her new life in fact she said that she was happy to have clifford back after his release it kind of sounds like joan was just one of those people who was pathologically afraid of being alone in any way whatsoever codependent but such was the power of clifford's aforementioned magnetism and no one was more affected by clifford's powers than joan she stuck with him for the time being even after he immediately returned to a life committing both sex crimes and theft upon his release so you think about clifford olsen is that even though he did get caught a lot he made a lot of money when he was on the outside which i'm sure helped keep people around yeah they say it was said that clifford and everyone said this gave people 20 tips without even thinking this is you know 70s yeah he lost his money as soon as he made it he was uh well it was wildly psychopathic well it was not even that he lost it as soon as he made it it was that he had certain scams that gave him an almost endless supply of money at least living at the level that he was living yeah also tipping people really big helps them help you cover up your crime of course everybody's happy that you're making money you're sharing money you know that's funny yeah narcissists uh big tippers yeah huge tippers well i like i'm a big tipper but i also believe in the idea of well you can't just believe every single transaction is transactional well there's a difference between being a big tipper and being an obscenely large tipper. Well, I'm not trying to get something out of everybody, but most of the time I'm tipping you, I'm hammered. That's the problem, really. He doesn't seem like he got fucked up that much. No. He was pretty sober? I mean, he drank like a Canadian drinks. Yeah. I would say he drank. So he's blind drunk all the time? I do legitimately believe he was quite in control. He knew what to do. He knew if he drank too much, he wouldn't be able to pull this shit off. I think so. I believe that. Not necessarily on the level of Manson, where everybody around him is completely fucked up out of it, and he's totally sober. He's having a couple beers, but the people he's trying to take advantage of, they're having a lot of beers, and they're also having a lot of beers that he's drugged with roofies. Yeah. But as far as Clifford and his money went, his most profitable scam was a refund-return scheme that he called rehashing. This was a trick he allegedly learned at the age of seven. While he rehashed to great effect at all sorts of stores, one of his most reliable targets was record shops. You bastard! Yep. The scam would go like this. Olsen would browse around the store and select two copies each of a dozen records. But while he would take one stack of the dozen to the register, he would hide the duplicates to those dozen records throughout the store, and he had an incredible memory, so he remembered where he hid each and every one. After paying for the dozen, he would take the records out to his car and then come back in with his receipt. He would then retrieve the duplicates he had hidden and use his receipt to get a full refund, saying he had changed his mind. And then he would make even more money by selling the stolen records at half price on the street. Said no one ever once questioned him when doing this. Now, the records didn't make him a ton of money, but he made real cash when he figured out how to do this same type of scam with construction equipment, and particularly VCRs. Because in the late 70s, VCRs sold for thousands of dollars. The modern equivalent of about, like, a VCR cost the modern equivalent of about $5,000 or $6,000 in the late 1970s. I remember. But since most of these stores didn't even know they were robbed until they did inventory months later, Olsen, was more or less impossible to catch when he rehashed. And he estimated he made around $5,000 a day in today's money with this con. Damn! Yeah. But while he could have been set making rehashing his one and only con, he didn't have to do everything else, Clifford Olsen was addicted to the thrill of crime and the power that it gave him over other people. So he paired rehashing with several more scams on the elderly, and any other vulnerable person he could find, even though there was no need for it. He just liked doing horrible shit. Yeah. Well, he just didn't like working. That's for certain. No, he didn't like working, but he also, that's the thing, rehashing $5,000 a day, that's more than enough. He's fine. There was a scam that some of the guys did in my school. I would, I never did this one, but I was always very impressed by it. There was a friend of ours that was like a cash register person at the Best Buy, and what they would do is they'd get a CD tower and fill it with CDs and then put it back in the box and then sell the CD tower and then you'd walk out and you'd have a bunch of CDs and then they, that person would sell the CDs at school. That's a good one. That's a real good one. This is why you don't let teenagers run your entire fucking store. This is another example. It's one of those. Little by little, Joan was beginning to realize that maybe Clifford wasn't such a great guy after all, but by July of 1980, Joan was unfortunately pregnant. While the pregnancy did extend the relationship by a few more months, it wasn't enough to keep Joan from finally leaving Clifford. Ironically though, Joan left Clifford only after he had finally completed all his parole requirements. Technically, Clifford Olson had a clean slate and by September of 1980, he was legally and officially a free man. This was one of the few times that this had been the case since Clifford had been arrested for for the first time 23 years earlier. But even though Clifford was now free to do whatever, Joan left Clifford in November of 1980 using a Dear John letter. She called out Clifford for being a drunk who liked having sex with boys. And she told him to not bother looking for him. Specifically saying that she was not at her mother's house. I'm not there, so don't you even think of looking for me there. Olson was of course enraged and as it often happens with serial killers, this loss of control over his own life led to a series of events that ended with Clifford Olson committing his first of 11 murders. So after reading the Dear John letter, Olson bought a case of beer, a bottle of vodka, and a carton of orange juice. He then rented a car and went out looking for someone young. And it was at this moment that he came across a 12-year-old girl named Christine Weller out riding her bike. Olson lured her into his car by offering her a beer. And once she climbed in and left her bike behind, Olson offered her a job, washing windows at his construction company. Now Olson did technically own a construction company, but the entire thing was just another scam. It was all on paper. He'd actually started it with Joan's brother so he could defraud other construction companies with various schemes. But it also served to make Clifford Olson appear as a legit person. Because if you can't trust a contractor, who can you really trust in this world? Of all the jobs in the world, yes, contractor. The most dependable, trustworthy man and woman in the whole world. How do they always get the price right? Right at the top. They always know exactly how long it's going to take. They're easy to get a hold of. They show up for work every time. When they say it'll take two days, it takes two days! Clifford had even made up business cards for his company. So he handed one to Christine at this very moment to bolster his story. He told her that he already had a bunch of girls working for him. It's a cool scene working for Clifford Olson. These girls, they just smoke weed all day long while they're washing the windows. I don't care. I smoke weed too. I'm cool. Yeah, you 12-year-old girl. That's so funny. In America, we kidnap kids with candy. I'm trying to think of a. Hey, stop! I'm not there jumping that rope. I got a beer. I'm not trying to remotely victim blame, but it takes a Canadian little girl to be into a Molson's from a car. There's something about that of just being like, oh, yeah, I'll take a couple of suds. I mean, it's not even Canada. At 12, you wouldn't get me into a car with candy, but you would have got me into a car with a beer. At 12, I was already drinking. Well, you're a Texas boy. Yeah. You would have got me in there with a promise of a shot on Broadway. But the beer, I think, I don't, actually, I don't know if it's a Canada thing or a Texas thing. I think it's just a 80s, 90s thing. Yeah, maybe. I was scared of all that shit till 16. No, no, no, no, no. But the beers that Clifford had been giving to Christine were, of course, spiked with chloral hydrate pills. And when Christine started drifting off, Clifford gave her more pills. He told her that the pills actually countered the effects of alcohol. He called them wake-up pills, and he even pretended to take a couple himself to show her it was safe. Christine, of course, passed out after they drove around for hours on end because Clifford was looking for the perfect spot to rape this 12-year-old in seclusion. He had not, as far as we know, decided to murder her at this point. Finally, he chose a spot off the main road where he'd done this same thing to many other kids. And after he raped Christine while she was unconscious, he got back in the driver's seat to take her to his apartment. He found, however, that his car was firmly stuck in the mud. Now, Clifford spent an hour trying to get himself out because he couldn't very well call a tow truck with Christine in the car. But his rage, paired with the underlying anger from Joan's letter, only grew with each passing minute. So he finally decided that the only way to get his car out was with a tow truck. And the only way he could call a tow truck is if he got rid of Christine Weller permanently. And that's how cold this decision was. He didn't kill her because he had an overwhelming urge like Jeffrey Dahmer or because he had momentarily lost control like John Wayne Gacy. Olsen killed Christine Weller because she was an obstacle to Clifford getting on with his day. It was a practical choice. Additionally, I think that the clumsiness of this murder is what tells you that it was almost certainly Clifford's first. Clifford was 40 years old in 1980, which is unusually late in life for a serial killer to begin a spree that takes almost a dozen victims. But it's important to note that while Clifford Olsen undoubtedly took sexual pleasure from his murders, he began his serial killing career out of narcissistic self-preservation. And he continued murdering, mostly with that same motivation. That's why I think this is his first murder because it's he's so chaotic with all the rest of his crimes and he gets caught, for most everything else. If he would have murdered before then, he would have gotten caught and he would not have stopped if he would have one if he would have murdered one person when he was 21 he would have kept and it worked he would have kept he would have murdered people at 22 23 he would just kept doing it and getting crazier and crazier because that's how he was especially if it worked yeah you know i mean like if he had found that it was a process that worked he definitely would have done it because everything was about aiding and abetting just his lifestyle of crime yeah and these murders like it's like a year and a half it's like 11 murders in a year and a half because that's that's his personality he finds something he likes and he does it over and over and over again it's almost like he was scared to murder because he thought he was going to get caught yeah and then he realized that's the way to not get caught because i'm already not getting busted for sexual assault but i want to make sure i'm not going to get busted for sexual assault i'll get rid of the evidence so after clifford decided to kill christine weller he pulled the laces out of her shoes and tried using those to strangle her she was still alive after his first attempt so he pulled them tight around her throat again and counted to 120 her face turned blue then purple so olsen figured that was that but when he let go of the shoestrings again christine coughed she was still alive so olsen tried suffocating her by holding his hand over her nose and mouth that didn't work either so olsen tried the shoelaces again this time the shoelaces snapped both frustrated by his failure but also aroused by the violence olsen decided to rape christine a second time but after he finished he decided to kill her he decided to use a foolproof method to finish it he grabbed a four-inch buck knife from his rental car and dragged christine out into a thicket of blackberry bushes when she was far away from the car clifford plunged the knife into her heart twice before slitting her throat which ended her life at long last he then took her clothes cut them up and tossed the pile of rags into the river her id card was burned her jewelry thrown into a ditch and the knife he used was broken and thrown into the river this would be clifford's mo for cleanup almost every time with rare exceptions clifford was careful to never leave behind evidence or keep trophies nor did he get sentimental about weapons as i said this was all just a narcissistic means to an end for clifford olsen it's just another crime yeah and after finishing the cleanup olsen absent-mindedly walked back to his car and he suddenly remembered the whole reason why he killed christine in the first place i this godforsaken adhd his car was still stuck so olsen had an actual forehead slap moment shortly after murdering someone for the first time you know it is aggravating getting stuck in the mud it is you're right no you're right it is it's very it's very aggravating super aggravating but i bet you the tow truck driver wouldn't blink twice at the little girl fucking knocked out in there he'd be like oh yeah nice yeah so the thing is though he said he didn't leave any evidence behind but he had sex with her yes oh there's no dna it's 1980 1980 yeah yeah this is the the best they can do is at in 1980 or secreter or non-secreter yeah and maybe i think they at this point they might be able to match like blood type to semen type but even then that's not that that you know that's circumstantial that doesn't hold up in court yeah they probably think he's in some prison yeah maybe and so at 4 a.m. olsen walked to a nearby hotel and called a tow truck while waiting olsen took a taxi home changed clothes and threw everything he'd worn during the murder into an incinerator and he did that every time he then called his mother and discovered that while joan had not gone to her own mother's place as she said in the letter she had gone to clifford's mother's house in coquitlam apparently while clifford was murdering a 12 year old the two women in his life had been up all night talking about the problems of living and dealing with clifford what do we do with a boy like clifford what do we do with him that's my thing what do we do with i've been thinking to myself what do you do with a boy like clifford sit and we give him a good talking to a good talking to is that's that's a good idea and we take away his syrup i can't go to his mother's house like clifford's mother ended up putting joan on the phone and while joan said that clifford was calm and in control she claimed that she felt a quote evil presence coming over the phone while they were speaking and even so he told her i'll see you later and after returning to the hotel clifford met the tow truck and his car was finally pulled out of the mud while christine's rapidly decomposing body lay in the blackberry bushes just a stone's throw away the car was as i said in the letter she said she felt a quote evil presence coming over the phone while she said a rental so after cleaning and returning it clifford got in his own car and drove to his mother's place in coquitlam where he once again charmed joan into taking him back no clifford olsen had just committed the first of 11 murders and we'll get to each and every one next week on the conclusion to our series on clifford olsen and i tell you what i can't wait he's my favorite canadian offender oh yeah they love saying an old offender oh offender yeah who are the other ones robert picton there have been other uh many yeah it's a carla uh homo or was it um um but they're carla homo come paul bernardo yeah paul bernardo yeah there's been many different and barbie killers there's been other canadian serial killers but he's definitely uh the arguably the most famous one besides picton he's never that's i would say he might actually be more famous than picton yeah technically yeah um it was a bigger deal because of the scandal that we'll cover on next week yeah not surprisingly a lot of uh canadian serial killers have never been caught uh yeah they go right back into the yukon yeah yeah there's a thing called the highway of tears um that you know we might get into one day but it's uh many indigenous women went missing yeah they had the whole school thing too oh yeah yeah yeah they go hide there because you know you can't catch them there and another patreon.com crime against the memory of the indigenous podcast on the love if you want to give a little bit of cash for jokes like that we made it all the way to the end yeah and if you uh want to see the stream live every tuesday at 5 p.m pst uh that is uh to be watched on our patreon patreon.com slash last podcast on the left don't cost too much money to get in there and talk to us on the chat and interact with us as we do this stream thing live had a lot of fun on the stream this week god it was great i love doing the stream you zero fun this week i really do love doing the stream go see all our youtubes go on the lp on tv over on youtube see the bloodbath 77 is now completely out it is fucking incredible and we are gearing up for another season at some point i do imagine and then we also got check out our we're going about to announce the second printing of our halloween sound effects album and you will get that information very very soon it's going to be coming out by halloween sounds like you just announced it i announced it last week but i still don't have the specific day oh we're waiting on the specific day but we know it's going to be ready by halloween yeah we really need to stop telling people about stuff before we have specific days the problem is is that then they say you didn't say anything about the stuff and i'm trying to talk about the stuff to remind them of the stuff as much as i can because then we get the day and then i forget to announce it it's hard people yeah things happen yeah well i'd like to remind these fuckers i'm going to be in denver on sunday yeah i sold out the first show come the second one it's going to be a blast at the comedy works downtown me julie rosen having a great fucking time and then next weekend henry and i are going to be in brooklyn and hartford back in brooklyn that's right and then following the rest of the month los angeles october 14th at the stray theater redway california the meteo community center henry and i are going to be on that and then the very next day in the afternoon on october 25th i'm going to be at cobs comedy club split and i'm going to be at the comedy club split and i'm going to be at the comedy club split and time with the wonderful billy wayne davis yeah oh and don't forget to come out and see us at new york comic-con yeah yeah thursday's the panel and saturday's the sign yeah come check out we're gonna have a good time yeah we love you guys hail sweet satan i'm hugging hail uh you know i'll pick another member from the band richard manuel really good your manual is also pretty great yeah he's a wonderful man again everybody anybody but robbie robertson yeah we know he's indelible and a necessary part of the band he really did ruin it for everybody else yeah and a good actor as well i will say if anything i think that's debatable they were all pretty fucked up and he did all the work i feel like this is pushing him back towards an apologist statement seems like somebody hasn't read levon helms autobiography no i haven't different story yeah i know i know i know but at the same time he was trashed wow jesus fucking christ at the end of the episode wow get out of here shots fired on levon helm at the end we're gonna get the fuck out of here i love him he's my favorite member of the band he was the only american we have to stand up for him actually rick danko's the best member of the band but what are we doing there or rick danko played uh organ right keyboard no that was richard manuel no that was richard manuel and then the other guy the crazy guy garth hudson he also played the the keys in the organ i like bob seger they were the best ones yes yeah yeah shout out to amy helm i hope everything goes well for you everything that's happening over there at the midnight ramble is fucked up and i hope you Everything works out good for you. Figure it out. you