Episode 67 - From Craft to Joy: The Truth About Great Mentorship with Sid Kumar

[Music] Hi, welcome to Tech Beyond Gender Podcast. I'm your host Meena Sipish Kumar. Today on our podcast, we are joined by someone who truly embodies both leadership and purpose. With over 25 years of experience across technology, finance and commercial sectors, SIT Kumar is currently the head of product at Network for Learning Limited, where he's shaping the future of connectivity and cyber safety for schools across New Zealand. He has previously led many large-scale transformation projects at Spark New Zealand, managing complex infrastructure and high-performing teams. Beyond his professional achievements, he is deeply committed to giving back, serving on the board for organizations and now recently he has volunteered to be a mentor through Tech Beyond Gender Today he joins us to talk about something equally impactful, that is the art and joy of being a mentor. Thank you, SIT for making time to have this conversation with us. Thank you Meena, thank you for having me. I think it's a pleasure actually to talk about this, to share about this. It's great. Thanks for that. I remember when we first had the conversation, when I first invited you for recording the mentor introduction, you were someone who was very enthusiastic and passionate about being a mentor and that's where the whole conversation came up and then we decided we'll have a recording on the art and joy of being a mentor. So what does it personally mean to you, the art and joy of being a mentor? Before we go to the art part or the joy part, let me go back to the craft part. To be a mentor, there's a craft first, before you can say that a guy enjoy the art or caught the art of mentorship. And part of that is the willingness to learn what does it mean to be a good mentor, what does it mean to be a mentor actually. And there is a time when you do it a few times and let's when you start learning, you talk to people, you know, like anything else, this has got the craft. It's not something that anyone can become a mentor. Yes, if they want to try it, they want to learn, yes, but nobody is a bon mentor. It's a craft that anyone can learn. The art part is when you bring in the imagination. When you have learnt the craft, that's when you move to the art. What can I change? What do I learn from this? What do I shift? That's where the art part comes into it. You can have any number of frameworks, any number of models that you have. You can use them. They're not going to work always because things change. When you're having a conversation, it doesn't go the way it is described in that. What do I shift? You take any art form, you first learn the craft, then you move into the imagination part. Then it's a joy. Joy is something that you experience when you realize why are you doing the mentor? When you see that person grow, when you see yourself grow with that relationship, that's when the joy comes. Those joy is not something that you see. You help somebody as a mentor and you see that person grow. It is in that moment. When you're having that conversation and when you feel that the pit has clicked with the person and you, that's when you get the joy. That's what I mean by the art and the joy of a mentor. Yeah, wow. To begin with, I may have been a mentor to a few people unconsciously without having a proper, like sort of, mentor, mentee relationship. But one thing which really striked to me with your introduction was the word framework that you used. It's like other established frameworks for how you be a mentor. I'm not found one which like coaching, you'll find a lot of coaching frameworks. There are many ways to coach those frameworks are there, the questioning part. You pick some of that and then you convert part of that framework is what does that mean? One thing that is most important is the mentor, mentee relationship. It's not documented anywhere. If you may have heard the word or the phrase, client, attorney, privilege in legal terms, there is a mentor, mentee privilege. The conversations that happen stay within that. They don't go anywhere. It's a contract between the mentor and mentee and a mentor must state that contract that I will honor that relationship and the contract. Because what happens if you see most of the time these mentor, mentee relationships are formed within an organization. You're working in the same organization. People hesitate to talk about you think within the organization because you don't know what will go where. That's the first step you do is establish that this is the Chathamha's rules or whichever rule you follow, there is a mentor, mentee privilege. One must not ever break that. So that sets the groundwork for it. Then it is also about why. What is there? What is in there for both of us? That's a common framework I go with. This first is that privilege. What's in it for us? What effort both of us are going to put it? Sometimes it people say, "Okay, I want to be a mentor or I want you to mentor me the other way." Mostly it becomes a chat after a few times. You meet, have a coffee and it's a chat. How do you convert the chat into something that is productive? That's where it becomes part of you as a mentor to understand what effort am I going to put in this? Many a times you just leave it on the mentee that, "Hey, it's up to them. They will come up with a question. I'll give them advice." What do you do when it is turning into a chat? How do you stop it becoming from a chat is also part of being a mentor? Interesting. How you began with this framework saying that it is like a coaching framework that you pick up and then you probably reutilise it for mentoring? Now, what is the difference between coaching someone or mentoring someone? How does a relationship stay between a coach and someone being coached and a mentor and a mentee? One big difference what I've observed is a coach does not need to be from the same industry, does not need to be from the same background at all or may have no understanding of your work. It is good to have a mentor who has got some understanding of the work, depends on if the mentorship is around the work. Then it makes some sense that when you have a conversation especially in the tech industry, it makes sense in that scenario. That's one I would say is slightly visible, but there is another one. I'll share a screen quickly. Yes. On the X-axis, on the left-hand side, you have a good feature on the Y-axis, you have a good tail and a ask. This is where the area of the therapist or a counselor is. In the past, you are asking a lot of questions. If you are more in the tail, past, future or rather ask, but more future, this is the coach. This is where the coach lives. Mostly. You can be a trainer. A trainer could be somewhere around here. Between past and tail is also, it could be kind of a training and a thing. Mental lives all over the place. Okay. Just to one listener, I'm probably just listening to the audio version of this. I thought I'd just explain a little bit. So we are currently looking at the screen. at a quadrant where the x-axis is passed in one side corner and the future and the other and then the y-axis is on top it is still an ask. So you're saying that anything that falls in the quadrant between past and ask is what a therapist does and ask and future is what a coach does and then the mentor lives in more future and tell but not without asking right because if he if a mentor just keeps on going about telling then it's wrong but that's where the outcome that you want is coming from there and that's where the difference between the coach and the mentor happens because mentor if you look at where is the word mentor or a you know originate from you know based on my research it's it's from you know a character in in Homer's Odyssey it was named mentor and the mentor gave the guidance mentee came much much later just like employer employee mentor mentee happened but that's where the guidance the wisdom for your future is what you could do is where that's the space the mentor is mostly. So okay so you mentioned that the quadrant between ask and future is a coach right yeah now with the mentor you are sort of touching on the past you are expecting them to tell things rather than you asking and probing them to see that box which is around everywhere the ask is there so if you ask me does the mentor not ask questions of course that's where you find out what is what is that you're looking for what where you want to go that's the ask part that comes in but the tell is where you leave you don't leave like if a coach would leave leave the coach to get to the answer the mentor also does the same but the the conversation becomes quite different because you understand you know where the area of the craft that the person is and that's where it becomes slightly you know interesting between a coach and a mentor where where you fall it's it's it's it's is not as linear or straightforward that you can say this is what happens but this is a framework that you can generally believe that you know it is more about providing the guidance and the wisdom okay cool now just thinking about this mentor mentee who's the trainee and what does a trainee do and how is a trainee different to being a mentor um the trainer for example like if they take any any whether it's it's sports training in a sport there's a difference between sports training and mentoring in sports training you have got targets you've got looking at look at this is what you're achieving you know you're pushing that person to get to that outcome you're fully involved in that you're training for an outcome and that sport it becomes where is in in if you have a mentor in in sports I am not so sure how is that work is a coach you could you could use the same framework in sports like you know there's a coach yeah sports coach right and most of these words have come from the coach part coach or training and how we play with these words is entirely up to us you know when it becomes a coach you can the coach in fact if you look at most of the sports coach are trainers where leadership coach leadership training it's again the same you know most of the leadership coaching leadership training they these are interchangeable words mostly how they use where I see the difference is what as a coach it is usually in a coaching program a coaching framework training sessions you give it and you go whereas in a mentor it's a more informal relationship that is there yeah you know I've not heard mentors being paid coaches do get paid right yes yes yes that's what is a cold coaching industry you but I see a federation where you tell how to coach etc not for mentor and that's where it becomes the informal nature of the mentoring comes into the picture as I'm happy to help you I'm not going to receive anything from you in consideration yeah nice so can you take us back to your first experience as being a mentor and what did you learn from it oh there was many many years ago when I was living in the UK and I used to be like in technology a master troubleshooter you were probably you got a problem and you were a needle in a haystack kind of a thing I would be the one looking for that needle there was a process there was a system I would follow and that's how when with my team I would teach them how to do that and that's when I started enjoying that if I'm able to teach this to somebody else and they can pick it up instead of me telling them this is how you this is where you find the solution rather help them find the solution is what was my I would say my first step into mentoring that was most enjoyable because I was not the only one doing it be I could see the joy in in the people who could find that that yes I can also do it my early mistake was to tell them where to find where to look for it but when I started changing it in a way that asking them open questions and proving them that what are they not looking where are they not looking at this what else could happen they could come up with the answers themselves nice so it's like making them to think the going through the thinking process rather than just giving the answer yeah yeah so now was that a mentor in your life or shape how you mentor today today yes absolutely his name is David Havocroft he has been part of my journey for a very long time and I have learned a lot and Dave was one of the most approachable person or it's still most approachable person I know and I had a couple of you know conversations with him and say hey we should catch up either twice and I didn't follow up one day he just saw me and tapped on the show load he said let's go for lunch so he took me out for lunch and and we had a conversation that's how he started that was like okay I was the one holding that should I do it sure and then but after two concessions he took me aside and let's do it he shared with me over a period of time so many nuggets and we would catch up or wine or lunch something it was be just a very simple catch up that could convert into two or three nuggets that live with me forever one of them was what's your story that is such a powerful question what's your story you know not your what you do if you start looking back into and crafting that story about yourself what is who are you what do you do that he helped me through that not by telling me what my story is but asking that question it took me a year to form that and then I called him up Dave I've got my story do you want to hear and I told him other one was problem problem and dilemma our problem versus factor right so if it's something which is you know when when we start looking at what is the fact what is the story that clear distinction if you can start every conversation anything that you okay what's the fact here what's the story problems can be solved if it's in fact ignore it and that spot has shaped my thinking that's what has shaped how how I mentor today how do I even even live my life I would say can you go back again to that second point about fact or a story yeah so if it's a fact you ignore it you say in case of a problem when you say a problem like whether it's work whether it's anywhere example we have we have a bad weather situation today yeah it's a it's a it's a it's a fact you can't change that problem is we could have flooding we could have you know gutters or anything around the house that's something that we can fix if it's fixable you go and fix it don't worry don't fret about there's a story storm coming, rather see what is the problem. And what can, because every problem has a solution. Facts don't have a solution. Dilemma don't have a solution. That's fine. That's happening. You can't change that. You cannot do anything about it. You can do it, but you can solve a problem. And your first one about what is your story that question, right? This is something I recently heard from someone who asked me what is your story. And I was like, oh my gosh, there are like several stories that I've created to myself, which was really limiting me, rather than empowering me, right? So then when I just took a step back and started looking at those stories, right, they just absolutely had no grounds. It was just absolutely self-limiting beliefs. It was just total story, total years that I was created for myself. And the minute it has become aware of it, it's just like you can change a story any time, right? That's right. And then the whole perspective to everything just changes instantly. Yep. So how, what impact did it have on you when you changed your story? You mentioned it took you a year to go back to their new story, did it? Yeah, because see, we used it in a different context, like so it was more about, if I have to answer who is said, from that perspective, what stories I want to share, what is that, what I want to tell you about, what, how has it shaped my life, what is my journey through? It was based on that context. But during that, you can run a CV car for thing and say, okay, that's my story, but that's not true. How did it, it is about the choices you made and why? What were the parts of your life that you want to talk about, that who you are today, what has shaped you to be? Is this true? That's the part that you were going to refine it and you use it, okay, this is what I want to share, this is what I want to keep. I have my story on my website and if you go to my about section, it shows how do I think, how do I, how I was as a child, I would take things apart, my luck for reading, my luck to travel, how do I play with my children on Xbox? That's all part of my story that I would like to share because these are the things that have shaped me. What does that mean? That's the part of the story that this becomes, that's what has shaped me. While during that, you come across your self-limiting beliefs. I cannot do this because or I don't want to do this because. The destiny is the filter you start changing, that's something that I now am aware of that in hardware shape. Yeah, so how was your experience in that year of just self-discovering yourself with your story? That I was confident that if I'm either doing an introduction anywhere, if I'm writing about it somewhere or even speaking, I was like, yes, I can tell you who I am without making it up, without thinking that is that me, is that not me, I could confidently say, this is what has shaped me, this is where I am. You could use that in any form, anything, anywhere, it does not matter. It could be an interview. I've done that in interviews as well. I've used it in introductions because once you have your story, you can pick and choose, you can decide how you want it. This is exactly what I do with my mentee as well. This part of my first couple of interactions, I go, what's your story? Let's build on my story. They go back into their early days and they talk about it, this is what they craft that and produce that. They use it anywhere. They said, we are love it because I'm not thinking about many things. I'm going to say what I'm going to do. It just empowers you with like, this is who am I? Why is it important to have a story? Why does it important to have a story? Two reasons, I would say. One is you then get across or rather, I would say, you are then aware of your self-limiting beliefs as well. You start digging into that. What has shaped me? The more you become aware of you, the more you can shape your answer's decisions, what if you do and how you do it? Because that's where we get stuck. Why I cannot do this, why I don't want to do this. Then you can relate it back. The other one is a very simple reason that you could be in any situation where, you have to either introduce yourself, you can do that. That's a very transactional reason to just have one. Yeah, the story on its own is a topic that really fascinates me. Yeah, how a story can also display the pattern that you have trained your mind to think. About. All the beliefs that you have probably grown up with or the beliefs that all your recent experiences could dictate, right? Then there's always things to think like, what is a story? Who am I then? Finally, if I didn't have this experience, if it was a little bit different, would my story be different? Yes. No, so you discussed, right? Like you did mention, you showed us a quadrant and you explained that mentoring just fits into a whole lot of different things. Now, do you see mentoring more as a guide or do you actually see it as someone who can challenge you on different aspects of your life or career? Or is it something entirely different? Do you challenge your mentees? Absolutely. Because that's where the relationship thrives. It is as part of guide at past challenging. And the first step is listening. The good mentor listens. He listens a lot. You would say 80% 70% of it is listening. And that's the hardest, but listening, it's bizarre that we just cannot listen. Eager to respond, eager to react, not listen. And that's the first bit that from a craft point of view, you start understanding, how do I actually listen so that you're absorbing everything that is being said and then you have a conversation. It's not about that you let somebody talk for 20 minutes and then you be listening does not mean that you can have a conversation, a dialogue, but still listen. The dialogue is about probing further. It's like a dance. Conversation, listening is like a dance that you take a step, the other person takes a step. But you don't lead. Your first question, like what I do generally is what's on your mind, that itself starts from there. There is no set agenda, there's nothing. But from there you come to a dance which leads to an outcome where at the end of it you go with two or three takeaways that you're going to do and this is where the challenge part comes. During this conversation you figure out what is the challenge, what is that belief that is stopping you from taking the next step. Yeah, that is powerful, right? Someone backing you saying it's all okay, just go ahead and do it and try it. So how has mentoring changed you personally or professionally? I'm exactly how it does to everyone else. That you question yourself, you ask, okay, do I try? First thing was around looking at what can I do, what I should not do, where do I go with this, even asking a simple question, getting a different opinion or a view and having a conversation, keeping that. growth in the mind that, 'Where do I take this to?' An example would be for you. If I was working on a strategy piece and I was stuck, sat down with one of my mentors, 'Okay, what do we do here?' And that person had no idea about it, that piece of work or anything. He asked, 'Only one simple question. What is the story you want to tell?' I had not even thought about that. I was in the deep, in the detail, deep, in everywhere, but that's the kind of guidance and wisdom by questioning you can, like, 'Where do you want to take this to? Where do you want this story as a strategy to be?' And that's the power I see in mentoring, because you otherwise just don't get those conversations. So, have there been any experience where you have given advice to a mentee and just realized, 'Oh my gosh, that's such a powerful advice that I've just given now.' I'm practicing that myself. Have you had any such experience and I able to share that with us? Absolutely. Oh, it happens always. Because sometimes you would be in that discussion and you would because you either know it, because there's the right thing to look hold on hold on. I've been not doing this. An example which comes to mind was I was having a conversation with one of my mentees and it was about fitness and how we could look at fitness as part of, you know, whole person and how it needs not hours and hours in the gym, but a couple of, you know, let's say 15, 20 minutes every day and we were having this conference, I was like, 'Oh hold on, I have really not been following this myself for the last few months. What is stopping me? Why what has changed?' Because I used to, I used to do that and it was part of my routine. It doesn't matter 15, 20 minutes of some physical activity every day. And that's when it struck me. See, you need to go back and start this. And then we had this common together. We started talking to each other, 'Are you doing it? Are you doing it? Are you doing it? Are you doing it every day?' So we started, came back on that kind of a path together. Yeah, I think that at a lot of the times as mentors, we underestimate how much we gave from the relationship as well, right? Yes. A lot, a lot, right? And that's what I enjoy about mentoring is that it is about challenging my own assumptions as well. It's not just sitting on a pedestal and giving some wisdom or guidance, there you go and I can do whatever I want. No, that is not. It is about, it's about, you know, being there and actually following what you say. Yeah. Very true. From your perspective, how can mentoring her create more inclusive workplaces, especially for women and gender diverse professionals? Especially as men, I think there is one part that surprises me sometimes is, is a conversation if you have with male colleagues and it becomes, the general disagreement that there is a discrimination, there is a challenge which an equity part is there. It's amazing that people don't realize that how much there is an imbalance. So the first part is acknowledging that and understanding that there is an imbalance. Let's not say that there is none. The discussion becomes from equity to equality or everyone's equal, but there is a challenge and you can only understand it if you've gone through it. Personally, I have not gone through it for like a man, but I've seen it. I've seen it in my home. I've seen it in workplaces. You have to see it and then you cannot unseal it. That's the first part that has, there is a challenge. So now, how do you then, once you've accepted it, how do you be an advocate? You make sure that there are chances or opportunity that you can actually have to create sometimes that what do we do here? Mentoring plays a key role in that. For a female to have a female mentor is one thing, but a female to have a male mentor is slightly different for both of them. And I've had quite a few in my previous team as well, where I was a mentor to few females in there. And it was a very different experience for me because what they share, what they go through is it's unimaginable. You just don't know. You have no idea as a man. That's when you can make a shift once you know that this is possible. Are you able to share any of the experiences which some of your female mentees have gone through and workplaces, which really surprised you or shocked you? One of them is the stereotypes. You know, the standard stereotypes, if you look at any organisation, women and technology, you will find them in non-tech roles that you can't find them. Yes, you'll find them in HR marketing, but very, very few engineers. How do you make them get from engineering to engineering management or even technology leadership was one of the challenges. And that's when you start creating pathways into management. You start creating pipelines into the organisation, into technology. And that's when you can start looking at right from the university graduates, where do we get them into the technology sector and provide that mentoring to move forward? Because what I believe that where mentoring could help is it can break those barriers. It can break those barriers to move forward. When we talk about glass ceiling, we talk about ceiling, look at this is where you can, I think mentoring helps in imagining that there is no ceiling. When you create that space where you start talking about that there is no ceiling, it's different. Firstly, you have to imagine there is no ceiling. Is there actually a ceiling? Maybe there is. But what if there is none? Isn't there a self-limiting belief as well that there is a ceiling? Yeah, I was wondering if it is nicer for women to have main mentors than female mentors to a lot of the cases because I'm a solution architect and I'm the only female solution architect in my team. And I deal only with male infrastructure team, security teams constantly. And when it is hard to actually see yourself evolve into a more senior technical role if you don't see people like yourself in those roles, right? And for me, luckily, my husband, I would say he's my mentor too. So he's a submission architect, himself. And I probably had a strong influence from him to actually become a solution architect myself. But for those who men who don't have that exposure or support from immediate family or if they don't see anyone in workplaces, then it is really easy to come to conclusion that, hey, that's probably not a pathway for women, right? But if you have male mentors, probably the mindset could shift. Yes, absolutely. Because they say, if you can't see one, how do you know that you can become one? And this is where if you remove in your mindset is that ceiling that it does not matter, if you are a solution architect and a solution architect can become a CTO. So can you? It doesn't matter whether it's a male or a female because you have broken that value. Yeah, yeah. So similar to women and gender diverse professionals, right? Have you had experiences of migrants having similar to show or other minorities? Yes, absolutely. Being a migrant myself, like you, I mean. It is one of the hardest bits because where you start, you don't have an easily experienced, you know, the standard thing that comes up, I was very, very lucky that when I came in to New Zealand, I transferred from my home company, Tec Mahendra, into New Zealand. So I came with a job, I came with an equivalent role here. So it was much easier, but I've heard stories of seeing people, it is absolutely, absolutely staggering that how do you not recognize that talent? Because you speak differently because you've got a different accent, but you've got exactly the same skills but you don't get through. So that's another issue. You know, there are communities that, getting them into workforce, getting, especially in the tech side I've heard, the ceiling, once you're in the workforce, that's the other part, okay, how do you grow into something, where do you take your growth path after you've found something as a tech or any good organizational role where you go next? So that's the barrier that again comes into play. Might take on that, like in my wife also, this discussion sometimes, right? Again, there's a lot of ceiling that we build ourselves. These are imaginary ceilings in there that, you know, as a migrant, you can't go up. No, you can. What if you imagine there was no ceiling? Try that. It's very easy, it's very easy to blame that, you know, I couldn't get there because I speak differently or I've got a different skin color. It's quite easy. It may be true. I'm not saying it's not, it doesn't happen, it happens. But if we go back to again, the problem and the fact, the stories that you're making, that's a story right now, so stop believing it. Imagine there is no ceiling, keep doing what you do best. Yeah, and just want to go back to what you mentioned about with female mentees, how the gender stereotypes that they experienced was a bit shocking for you. Now, in those in such situations, as a mentee, have you been effective in sort of creating or pointing them into a career direction where they could progress more easily? Or was it a challenging yourself to actually see or give them opportunities to grow? Trying to remember, you know, sometimes, sometimes, or in one case, where I could not help someone because where she was stopped was primarily to get out of technology but move into completely something different. And not because, not because she didn't want to do technology, but primarily because there was no way that she was willing to take that risk. And it happens, right? Because sometimes, sometimes there are situations where you just have to take a pause and say, do what is right for you, because whether it's financial, whether it's health, whether it's anything, that's where, you know, as a mentor, you need to decide where do you stop challenging? And where that, because ultimately it is your journey, your mentees journey to decide where you want to take next. You can lay out the path, but the choice is theirs. Yeah, it is, I'm just thinking it can be, like you could just get too involved as well, right in the story and their journey. And you could just fall into the strap of trying to, or wanting to make decisions for them to move forward. So, you know, that you touched a very important point. One of the things about a good mentor is that, you know, you don't create a mini-meat. That's absolutely you don't want to do. You don't want to create a mini-meat. You like a sculptor. You're shaping them, but ultimately what it comes out to be is, will be up to them. You can only shape some things. You can't be fully involved, as you said. Just when to take that step back, when do you pass that lead to them that this is a choice that where they want to take it from. And it usually happens, especially within the same organizations, that when someone is looking for a different role and found a role and they come to you, should I take it, should I not take it, that's the point where you completely stay away from making a decision for them. You help them make a decision. They decide what's good for them, based on, you ask them questions based on, you know, where they want your career to be based on your previous discussions, what's in, is it just for money. So you can make, help them make that decision, but never make the decision for them that, yeah, don't take that role or no, don't take them through. Yeah, that could be a huge blunder, right? If you do decide to do something better. Yes. And it could be, it could be well, right? It could be fine. It may be a very good outcome, but even then, you know, they have to make that choice, not you. So what are other common mistakes a mentor could make? Being, because, you know, being an expert or being something that you know very well, you fall into that expert trap. And it's, you know, in that quadrant, you always live in the tail and future space, which means you're not helping them grow, but you are, you are the one giving the answers. That's one trap. Other one would be not listening. That's a very common one. We forget, I use a very simple tool, it's called weight. It's no framework. It's, why am I talking? If that's something that's ingrained, you may have noticed it as well, that I would pause after some time, because, you know, you, you, you cannot comprehend or you lose attention after 80, in 20, 30 seconds of a, of if someone's talking, nothing more than that. That goes in my head, why am I talking? So I've, that's one of the parts that you will use to start. You ask a question. Nice. Yeah, taking those pauses consciously, right? pauses. Other thing I've noticed is people in general are absolutely uncomfortable with silence. If you, if you are with the mentee, how long can you wait? And there's a question to you, how long can you wait without a word being spoken? I can forever, because I have a background in meditation and everything, but I do understand what you mean. Not everyone is comfortable. I can just, few seconds can just make someone feel a bit uncomfortable. Yes, it is, it is very hard for many, many people, five seconds, ten seconds. Forget minutes. If you, if you have to sit with somebody for ten minutes without speaking, any one of you speaking a word, that power you only realize after a word is spoken. That's, yeah, it becomes so interesting when, when, when, in that kind of a scenario, because, as I said about the mentor mentee contract, there's so many things that are shared. Sometimes you just don't say a word. Let it flow. Yeah. Now, having this conversation, right? It just makes someone disloyal to it, I think, oh my gosh, being a mentor involves a whole lot of things which I haven't thought about. Can I even be a mentor to someone like that? What would you say? Absolutely. If you have got experience and skills and the other part is what kind of a mentor? You don't know the life coach. You're not doing something which is around. You need to know a lot of things. If it's a technology mentor for a specific space, you need certain skills. But as you age, as you experience, you can get more, depending on your life stage, where you are, absolutely. You have gone through so much, you've learned so much, you can be a mentor to many different range of people. What stops us? Number one time. How many times we have heard, I don't have time for this. I don't have time for something, whether it's exercise, whether it's reading, whether it's anything. And I keep going back, it is not about the time. It is about your priorities. If giving back is your priority, if helping others get out of their self-limiting beliefs is your priority, then you will make time. That's the bit, and it doesn't need to be two hours, three hours a day or in a week. You can do that in 15 minutes. It takes time to get to that where you can have a very, very powerful, 15 minute conversation and that unlocks something for a person. And that's the bit we miss. It needs a lot of time, lots of effort. No, it doesn't. It needs your attention that, yes, I want to do this. And why? Nice. So what is one mindset shift that can transform someone into a great mentor? One mindset shift. I think getting off that pedestal that this is for me to be there and give that guidance. There's one, I don't know if you know, Jayakrishnamorthy, he used to say, the teacher is the taught and the taught is the teacher. When you get into that mindset that you are there not just to be on that pedestal and give that guidance, but you are there to learn as well, you start becoming a great mentor. Nice. So it was such a beautiful conversation that I'm having with you, really enjoying it. I'm a bit conscious of the time as well. Now, for our listeners, before we end, if you had to summarize mentorship in one sentence, what would it be? Give it a go and make someone's life much more beautiful. Awesome. That's nice. Great. Thank you, Siddh. Thanks so much for your time. Any thoughts to our listeners before we end? I mean, one final thought I would leave is that look, we all hear on this planet for a very, very short time, if you think from time horizon from that. It's just tiny spec in this world. We can see what's going on. We see whether it's the Gulf, whether it's Ukraine, whether it's Russia. We live in this very simple concept of motivation. We level good, bad, or somebody who is pro one side or the other side. How do we start becoming more neutral? If you think deeply, now there are only two parts, two things which motivates people. You do things out of motivation and whether it's mentoring, whether it's anything else in life. It is either in the pursuit of pleasure or in the avoidance of pain. There is no other motivation at all ever. If you think about this, anything that you do, it's for either of these two. We need to start thinking that it's from our perspective that what am I doing and why instead of just labeling everything into a bucket. Great, great, Winston, before we end, sir. Thank you so much for spending the time, shedding your experience. So nice to hear from you. Thank you, Mina. It was my pleasure as well.