Episode 63: Eleonor Bindman

Welcome to season 9 of Parenting Musically. The theme of season 9 is celebrating new releases. I'm your host, Lisa Heisman-Copes. I'm a professor and researcher of music education at Case's Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio. I also teach early childhood music classes and I am mother to four children. So I engage with ideas of parenting musically from multiple viewpoints. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Case Western Reserve University. I'm excited to introduce you today to Eleanor Bindman. Eleanor is a pianist and recording artist based in New York, known internationally for what one reviewer called Bach playing of the highest order. Born in Riga Latvia, Eleanor started piano lessons at age of five, later studying at New York's High School of Performing Arts, earning a bachelor's degree in music from NYU, and completing a master's in piano pedagogy at SUNY New Pots under Vladimir Feltzman. Her recording of the Brandon Bergdouettes was released on the Grand Piano Naxos label in 2018, and became the label's best-selling album of that year. Pianist magazine called it breathtaking in its sheer precision and vitality. Eleanor's discography also includes Bach's cello suites and lute suites arranged for solo piano and the orchestral suites for piano duet. Eleanor has been a music educator for more than three decades and is a mother of two. Classical for Kids or C for K is a free initiative curated by Eleanor, offering expert selected playlists of classical jazz and world music for families with children ages 0 to 6. The instrumental playlists are free on Spotify, Apple Music, and YouTube. The playlists are organized around the real moments of a family's day, morning, play, focus, nap time, and bedtime. Eleanor's aim through the project is to make the beauty of instrumental music a natural everyday presence in family life. No expertise or expense required. Eleanor, I'm so excited for the chance to talk with you today on parenting musically. Thank you, Lisa. I'm so thrilled to be here. I couldn't imagine the better podcast to be on, considering what I've been trying to do lately. So I'm very happy and honored to be talking to you today. Thank you. Well, congratulations on the remease of your gorgeous resource, Classical for Kids. I've been really enjoying listening to these playlists with my own family and exploring all the resources. Could you give us an overview of what is available to families and where to find it? Thank you very much. I am still kind of in the afterglow because the website just came out in early May of this year. Our resources are primarily intended for parents and we also have a few for teachers. But for parents, we have most importantly, the playlist. We have a over 15 themed playlist that are curated with an intentional theme be by time a day or an activity or an idea such as creative play or all about animals or fairy tales and so on. So they're theme playlist. And we also have coloring sheets which are paired and matched with different tracks on the playlist, which I think make for a very nice more immersive experience. You could play the track a few times and the child can color and kind of think about what the music represents. We also have listening guides for parents, although most of our playlists just stand on their own. And you know, our primary mission is just listen to music and home, stream the music at home. And if you want to talk a little bit, that's already kind of extra and busy parents are certainly, you know, sometimes too busy to do that. We also have a few articles about why music is really good, specifically music without words because we only do music without words in our playlist. But we have articles about how recently so many studies talk about the developing brains of infants and playing music without words and what it does and how it develops attention, et cetera, et cetera. So for those who are interested. And then for teachers, we have some lesson plans. That's great. And I'm really curious what led you to create the C for K project. There are actually many components to that. I am a music educator. I'm a classical musician and music educator. And I have my own children who are now grown. And the first impetus behind creating playlist was actually the advent of streaming, right? Because streaming, if you think about it, hasn't really been around that law. It's only 15 years since streaming is available to most people like at the push of a button on their phones. It occurred to me that bringing classical music and any kind of music to families is now completely effortless. And it doesn't cost anything because there are free varieties of streaming platforms. And we also have playlist on YouTube. And I realized that some people may need a little bit of a push to kind of understand that this is now available and they could play music at any time. So that was the first reason I was thinking about it while creating my own playlists. Because I recorded a big transcription of mine in 2018. I recorded the brand Moucran Shadows in my forehand cano transcription. And my record label told me that I need to make playlists because they wanted the tracks to be played. So I started making playlists of my tracks and other Bob tracks, etc. And then it occurred to me that I could make playlists for children. So the first class in Africa's playlists were actually made in 2018. And since then I've changed. But the idea has been in my head for a very, very long time. I also knew a lot of parents who felt intimidated and not sure that their children would actually understand the one classical music or music without words. So that's how I started. You know, I want to jump in because I just made a connection to the idea that making playlists for people I think is an act of love and friendship. And during college, my friends would we would make mixtapes for each other. And I remember I made a mixtape for my boyfriend at the time who's now my husband of 27 years. Oh, must have been a good mixtape. Yeah. But you know, choosing these songs that were meaningful to us, some of which we had listened to together and some of which were new to us. And now looking back on that, it captures this moment in time when we were in college together and some of the music, we were both studying music. But I'm just thinking that your creation of these playlists for families is an act of care and an act of love. Well, I appreciate the connection and I certainly would agree. Some people call it a passion project. It's a social media term, but I feel very deeply about it being something that I can do because of my education and my experience. And I am trying to fill something that's desperately needed, which is a different type of an experience for the girl generation. Let's jump to talk about that term classical. I think a lot of parents have internalized a message from society that classical music is more valuable or better for children to listen to. And that's a message I've really worked to dispel in my own research. I try to be careful to help parents understand that one genre of music like classical is not inherently better than others. So I was so glad to see that your lists contain a really wide range of music, including classical jazz and global. Can you talk more about that decision to only have music without words and why you did that? Absolutely. Yeah. Well, just to briefly address music without words, it was a very conscious decision. And I want to say right off the bat, I love songs. I love children's all kinds of music. I love opera areas. I love any kind of songs. At the same time, I feel that lyrics are a specific component that distracts from the actual music itself. More often than not, especially when we're talking about singing with young kids. So the experience of just listening to the pure music without any connotations that's certain part of the brain kind of latch onto and make a priority. I think that experience is very, very accessible to young kids, like literally from day one. And I think you and I know it, but I think there are a lot of people who don't quite know it because they themselves don't have that experience. So my primary criterion is not classical music, but it definitely is music without words. Again, because that's what I'm specifically trying to put out there, that particular message, which I don't see very much. You know, it's funny what you said about the mixtape for your now husband reminded me, you know, I immigrated to this country when I was 13 and I went to the high school of performing arts in New York City. And I met somebody who is now an excellent friend of mine and a world famous jazz musician, his name is Bill charlotte. And he was trying to introduce me to a lot of music that he knew because I just came from, you know, an animal country. And he made me a couple of tapes and I still have them. And I was sold peanuts by Charlie Parker and all kinds of mostly jazz tunes and you know Emerson Lake and Paul Moron, kinds of other music that I already love as far as the genre. I always love jazz and I took an ethnomusicology course at NYU and I just, I love ethnic music and global music and world music and I just think it's such a source of happiness and joy and also a real education. So we do have classical tunes and what we call jazz you know which we try to select things that could be called gateway kind of jazz pieces that would be easily digested, not you know nothing too far out, not this and it's just something that children could take in and enjoy and definitely a lot of music from different parts of the world. I like to think of it as kind of a well-rounded musical education because I think classical music really speaks to the parts of the brain and to our personalities that enjoy structure and order and symmetry and this kind of departure and return logical thinking and what jazz has is just this amazing freedom of expression and I think it's really important for children to just have that vibe of you know I could do anything yeah I don't have to be always constricted and I'm conformed of course I'm imagining but it does convey that towards emotion and I think world music is just a wonderful tool to learn and appreciate other cultures you know I always make a joke that if certain world leaders right now have listened to a variety of good classical jazz and world music there would not be so many wars right now yeah definitely Eleanor I read in an article you wrote about the music playlist selection process that quote put simply an algorithm optimizes for engagement a curator listens for feeling unquote could you explain more about the importance of feeling over engagement when it comes to children's music listening yes I'd love to talk about this least also because recently I've been literally bombarded on my social media accounts with ads for playlist various Spotify another playlist intended for children especially music for sleep that seems to be a big big area and I hate to use such a strong word but I was the Paul I was horrified at what I heard as something that's called music for babies because there's this AI generated or electronically generated series of tunes that all sound the same that include very very basic skeletal note renditions of some really well-known classics and other pieces that are just kind of mindless regurgitations of those and just the difference between an algorithm and the human curator is just it's a difference between something that simply fills space and something that really connects and shapes a move you know we're trying to reach and impress an emotional impact on children when we play music for them and hearing notes is almost like information as opposed to real education which is understanding music on some level so an algorithm will present straight things that are somehow connected but there's no way that anybody but a human can curate for content for quality for performance even for recording quality really we really need to think a little bit more about how far the streaming platforms have come even in 15 years when streaming started playlists were made by either streaming platform employees or by record label employees they just wanted to get their tracks out and now they're mostly made by an algorithm so there's no intelligent kind of connection there's no ability to curate by quality of performance you know is this a really truly stylistically correct performance is there any kind of emotion that's being conveyed all of these things are just completely human related and that's what we're trying to do yes so staying with that point I wondered if you could give any tips about the process of curating music for children so that if a family was listening to this and they enjoy your playlist but they also really enjoy certain other genres and they'd like to be able to put together thoughtful playlists would you be able to give anything about the criteria or process yes I think when parents are trying to create their own playlist there are many ways they could try to go about it and they could certainly jump off of our playlist and kind of see the artist or the genres that they enjoy and then look for more from those particular genres or artists they could try to build playlist with some variety or based on instrumental variety or the particular geographic region that they're interested in and also I think contrast is important as far as mood and the length of tracks because attention is sharper when there's a little bit of variety oh that's interesting to know and earlier I think you are also talking about choosing music that expresses emotions and that has real feelings in it yes and you know ideally all music should express in emotion what I find is I make the playlist myself and also have a wonderful intern who has a degree in music education is a violinist himself and we listen to every track from beginning to end and we just we listen to and we think how do it make us feel because you can have the same track played by two different orchestras to different musicians and it will create a completely different impression so we listen and we make sure there aren't any dissonances and for example if there's a you know baby to sleep playlist we make sure that there isn't a big development section with fun crescendos and such so essentially all of the music for children should also be enjoyed and it would be interesting for adults as well I mean all of the music that we present music for so the best way is just to hear something and and see if you like it as a parent that's such a good point and I'm glad you brought that up that the music is enjoyable for adults as well that's something that I've had parents say to me in my research studies that they think they need to play children's music for their children but they they as parents don't really like it and what do I think and of course you don't need to listen to music you don't like absolutely no you're right and and that's a point that I often forget but all music that we have on our playlist is not children's music I mean yes maybe we have a playlist called all about animals so we have something from Peter and the wolf you know I don't know it's flight of the bumblebee intended for children no most of our tracks are music that is not just intended for children but it's music that is easily suitable for children there may be some shorter tracks just content that's emotionally appropriate for children but doesn't mean that it's simplistic in any way we have you know Bach we will have a Bach piece on a marimba or a chelesto you know for a specific sound but you know we have jazz tunes that most adults will probably know and enjoy but they're not too complex that's helpful to hear more about that process Eleanor you wrote a really helpful article called how to build a listening routine and I'm going to link it in the show notes you explain there why listening is important and how to start making it a part of daily life I wondered if you could share some examples of how you used music as a parent music listening with your own children when they were small yeah it was really a lot of fun when my kids were toddlers or or even babies I found myself playing a lot of music just in the house it maybe also because I was never a big TV person but in those days there wasn't no streaming yet so I would make compilations on CDs and actually ordered them online and get them back and I had a lot of kind of dixie land tunes that they would dance to I remember dancing with my son to a sentimental mood with a count-based orchestra I just you know he just he just had such an expression of bliss on his face just listening to those tunes and some of my friends recordings as well so it was just a way to keep them engaged without giving them anything else to do and they love to dance to it or to move to it or to fall asleep to it or rhythmic play for example you know when they would be play dates they would love to dance you know or when we'd make pizza I'd play some Italian music just demonstrating enjoyment and especially as a parent since you model everything pretty much you know they say children don't do as you say they do as you do as long as you show that you love the music and listen to it that's what they will take to and and that's kind of the main idea behind what I'm trying to do yeah that openness to listening is so important you know in my work with families and music I've thought about how we sometimes use music for relational purposes like connecting emotionally with our children and sometimes it's more practical like a song that helps figure out how long we need to wash our hands so we sing this song and wash our hands the whole time yeah and many times our purposes are both relational and practical but I'm curious how you view the families use of the C for K playlists would you see them as useful for relational music in practical music in or both? Well, of course, you know, it really has to be both. They're both very important. The primary intent behind C4K is practical, just because I really want people to listen. So when you're in a car, you can listen to our musical travel playlist. When the kids are coloring, they can listen to music for drawings. We have a playlist called Playtime Adventures for Creative Play, they want to dress up like pirates or so on. So practicality is very, very important. And the ease of access is very important. The press of a button, push of a button, streaming idea is very practical. At the same time, as you said, music is very relational. I'm wondering, what do you think about the possibility of not just a parent relating to a child, for listening to music together, but do you think there's potential in the child just establishing a relationship with their own inner world by being left alone in a way with the music? Absolutely. Thank you so much for bringing that up. In my book, when I talk about it, I say the relational could be the child with themselves, the child with siblings, with peers, with parents, with the divine, with the world. So absolutely that the child with the world and the child with themselves occurs through music listening. Yes, I mean, and really, especially when you mentioned the divine and all the other aspects, you know, these days parents are so overwhelmed and they're trying so hard to be good parents. And at this point, screens are becoming something that they want to try to find alternatives for because being alone with the screen is kind of the furthest thing from the divine or self-awareness or self-expression. As an only child, that was left with music a lot and it really finds almost a mirror in the child's emotional world I find. And I'm sure you know how much it can help just emotional regulation and focus and emotional awareness and attention span. I mean, all these worlds are out there in the articles that we read, but it really is true. And there is such great variety in folk and classical music that children can see that emotions can pass and agitation can be soothed and they can experience all of that without the use of words. And that is something that is very, very important. The language of music, it is sublime and it does convey so many concepts, even something as simple as speeding up or slowing down or getting more agitated or repeating or another voice entering. All of these are things that register and are very important for a child to almost be alone with. Yes, Eleanor, I appreciate the way that you put words to these elements of music that sometimes it almost feels like it's hard to speak about music because it's this thing beyond words, but you're actually helping us understand very specifically the speeding up and the slowing down and the structures and how that connects to emotions and how that connects to kids. So I really appreciate that. The work you're doing and I want to congratulate you again on releasing this wonderful resource. Thanks so much for being with us today. Thank you so much. I really hope that this will be helpful to some of the parents. I'm eager to reflect on some of the moments of my conversation with Eleanor. I'll cover the importance of shared music listening, why using music without words is important with young children, and thoughts on the role of music in developing a child's relationship with themselves and with the world. Let's start with the importance of shared music listening. The C for K playlists are a valuable resource in many ways and one of those ways is that they foster shared music listening. In a 2014 study published in Frontiers in Psychology, researchers Diana Boer in Amina Abu Bakar studied joint listening among family members and peer groups in Kenya, the Philippines, New Zealand, and Germany. The authors indicated that listening to music together strengthened social bonds. I've experienced this with my own family and I noticed that having a common set of references leads to this deep in relationship. So maybe we're quoting lines from songs that we listen to out of contact and that makes us laugh and reminds us that we share that listening experience. One participant in a research study I did gave an example of this. She says that she'll shout, "I am in dire need of assistance," which is a line from the musical Hamilton, when she needed her children to stop and notice that she was carrying a lot of grocery bags or she needed help cleaning something up. Shared music listening also builds memories that you can draw on in later years as a family. Next up, let's talk about Eleanor's point that it's important for children to experience music without words, particularly in the early childhood years when their language skills are developing so quickly. This resonates completely with the early childhood work of Dr. Edwin Gordon in his students, including my own doctoral advisor, Dr. Cynthia Crump Teggart. Dr. Gordon pioneered an approach to teaching early childhood music classes that centers on immersing children in many diverse musical sounds, every tonality mode and meter. You could think of it as not all of it sounds like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, which when you think about it, some of the children's music that's marketed as children's music does all sound like that. So with Gordon, much of the repertoire used by practitioners of his approach is sung or chanted on a neutral syllable, like ba, ba, ba, or la, la, la. So for an example, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, Gordon taught that because children are so immersed in language throughout the week, during our 45 minute parent child music class, we would sing and chant without words part of the time so the children could really focus on the musical content. This is not to say that you should only sing songs without words with young children. For families at home, I hope you're enjoying singing all kinds of music with your children. But it's an interesting connection to me that both Dr. Gordon's work and Eleanor's work focus on providing children with a language break when encountering music. Third, I'd like to reflect on Eleanor's identification of music as a way for a child to be in relationship with himself, the world, and the divine. There's a beautiful research article published in the Psychology of Music Journal in 2011 by Australian researcher and music educator Margaret Barrett in which Margaret shares a narrative, which is a story-based account of how a two-year-old research participant develops her identity through music. I'll put a link in the show notes to the article. This research is part of a larger body of work in which researchers carefully come alongside very young children to document their musical experiences, engagements, and creativity. Often parents are part of this work of documenting their children's musical lives as well. I'd love to hear if any of these ideas resonate with you or if you have other ideas to share. Be sure to check out the show notes for resources discussed today, including Eleanor's website Classical for Kids. Thanks for joining us today. Parenting musically is supported by Case Western Reserve University. Please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it. This will help others find the podcast and the increased listenership could help with future grant proposals. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram @parentingmusicallypodcast. We'd love to hear from listeners about your favorite episodes or ideas for future seasons. You can email me [email protected] or reach out on social media. Until next time, thanks for making music meaningful part of your family's life.