Episode 61: Two Different Paths, One Common Goal with Raj Shah and Timothy Haji

Hi everyone and welcome back to the IPHO podcast. I'm your host, Alina Abraham. I am a second-year fellow in Global Regulatory Affairs and Regulatory Affairs International at Merck. And today I have two very special guests because they are my colleagues as well. I am very excited to introduce Ross Shaw. He is an associate principal scientist, a regulatory affairs liaison in neuroscience at Merck, and he is also a farm de-graduate from Rutgers and Join Merck in 2021. Raj has also been involved in regulatory innovation and was previously in the US subsidiary space as well. Timothy Hodges, associate director and Jen met in US subsidiary at Merck. He previously was a regulatory affairs fellow at Dichy Sankyo through RPIF. He currently leads the regulatory innovation team and has a focus on more global clinical supply initiatives, generic and biosimilar selections. He is also very into AI-driven process improvements and professional development via the API program. So thank you so much for being on this podcast, Tim and Raj. Super excited to have a conversation with you today. Yeah, excited to be here. Thanks, Lina. Really excited to be here. So my first question to you is how would you choose your initial career path? What would you go into industry and choose regulatory? I can go first. So to be honest, when I first joined industry, it wasn't even really planned on my end. I had just applied to a rotation at Merck and I didn't really know too much about regulatory or the pharmaceutical industry in general outside of what we learned in pharmacy school at Rutgers. And so I landed in a quality and compliance certification where I was helping out in audits and inspections and making sure internal procedures were being followed. And that experience is actually incredibly helpful in opening my eyes to the broader world of the pharmaceutical industry, especially because I got to meet so many people in so many different areas. And what really ended up shaping my path is actually what happened outside of my official rotation. So I made a point while I was on my rotation to network and connect with people across different teams. And one day I met someone who turned out to be the lead in my future group. And that super small connection led to an opportunity to take on a side project in this other group, which was the US subsidiary. And that project ended up being bigger than we expected. And I was able to leave a good enough impression with my work where they actually offered me a contractor position once my rotation ended. So this experience really taught me a huge lesson that when you're new to a team, really the strongest impression you can make is through the quality of your work as well as your attitude. And people notice when you go above and beyond. So those first projects really can open doors that you never expected. It also taught me the difference between mentors and sponsors. Mentors are people who teach and guide you and sponsors are those who will advocate for you when you're not in the room. So that one person, he became a huge sponsor for me. And that really did change the trajectory of my initial career path. And who was that we can give Machado? Well, yeah, we can of course Frank Raleigh at Merck. Big shadow to Frank. I know he is a big advocate to a lot of students and fellows. Thank you for sharing, Raj. So what about you, Tim? Yeah, sure. So for me, how did I choose my initial career path? Actually, before pharmacy school was a chemistry major. And I had an internship at Novartis doing a bench chemistry internship. And it was a really great experience. I learned a lot, but I knew that bench chemistry wouldn't be a long-term career goal of mine. So I was looking for alternative paths to apply my scientific knowledge for I learned in school. I actually met a pharmacist who went to Rutgers, my alma mater. When I was at my internship and she explained the different career paths and opportunities that pharmacists have in industry as well as retail and hospital. And that might be a good fit for me. I applied to pharmacy school at Rutgers, got in. And one of my first industry experiences was actually in medical information. And I absolutely loved it. I thought the industry environment was definitely somewhere I wanted to be. I think there's a lot of opportunity here. There's so many different groups where you can apply or farm deep background. And you're not stuck in one spot. You can shift around. So there's a lot of opportunity. And really like Raj was saying, I think you meet so many different people with different backgrounds. So you're constantly learning and growing as a professional. So really was something that I was interested in. In terms of how I landed on regulatory affairs, similarly to Raj. I actually had a 10-week rotation at Merck and regulatory affairs in the group that I'm in right now. And my preceptor was Frank. He's like Raj said, a huge advocate for students. And he really taught me what regulatory affairs is about. And the profession itself is something I realized I really enjoy learning. Once I was finishing up pharmacy school, I during my P4 year, I applied to the fellowship program and eventually landed regulatory fellowship at the Hsankyo. Really, I think the interest came from my experiences in industry through my rotations and internships that maybe chooses career path. I it's really interesting to see how you both started off in rotations at Merck and the power of networking and the importance of visibility because both of you are quite exceptional. And you're here at Merck for reasons. Tim, you did a fellowship in Raj, your direct entry. Could you guys talk a little bit about what the key differences are between those routes? So yeah, I would say for fellowship. I would say maybe seen as a traditional way for farm ds to get into industry. And it's definitely a growing path that students are taking. There's the Rutgers fellowship program, which I was a part of and I know there are other programs as well that are partnered with different pharmaceutical companies. I think it's a great way to get your foot in the door at some of these larger companies, but also to meet a lot of other young professionals who are on that same journey that you are. I've met so many people through the Rutgers fellowship program, some of which I really consider my close friends. So not just something that that benefits you professionally, but also in your personal life, you give me a lot of great people. And it's good to learn about what other career paths and interests that people have because you never know. You might do your fellowship in clinical and you're saying, oh, you know, I don't actually like this, but let me talk to my friend in marketing or regulatory and you might be able to pivot. Raj and I have benefited from networking. Yeah, I think the fellowship program is great in that way and that you have this large sense of community. And you really can connect with the faculty if your fellowship program is connected to a school and really just build that network and it is constant learning opportunities when you're in the fellowship. And I think that really separates you from other career paths if you don't have that background. Yeah. And basically at going what Tim said, I think in direct entry, which is what I had done instead of doing a fellowship, there's definitely a lot less structure when it comes to learning and mentorship. You still get that support within your company. It's just not as built in as it is with the fellowship, especially for example, in a space like regulatory strategy. I do feel like fellowship offers a lot of hands-on learning which can be tough to get otherwise. So it's a great way to build experience in an area that can be really hard to break into due to that experience hurdle. There obviously are pros to direct entry as well. And in my experience, it's a little bit more trial by fire where you're learning on the job. But again, you can always network and gain mentors and learn from other colleagues to really grow in your role. So I wouldn't say that you can't grow. It's just you have to be a little bit more active in, I guess, learning if you're in a direct entry role. I also want to add to what Rajegu have not done fellowship in our industry and they're really excellent. I've worked with Raj and he's someone who I really appreciated working with. He said, as long as you're advocating for yourself and you are putting yourself forward when it comes to your professional development, you can succeed just as much as anyone who did a fellowship. And yeah, again, I've met a variety of people who have taken contracting roles or just gone right into industry. And I don't see it as a detriment or not as good as a fellowship as maybe some people here. I think it's equally important and a unique path into industry. I completely agree with both of you. For our listeners, a fellowship is not the only option. Being in a direct entry position gives you the same amount of opportunities and visibility as a fellowship. There are some differences, but either as a good path. Moving on to my next question, how did you establish credibility early in your career as junior employees? Yeah, I guess I can go first. So in my opinion, once you get your foot in the door, it's all about being a sponge and soaking up as much information as you can and really being prepared to work as hard as you can. No one expects you to know everything right away. Honestly, when you start, you're probably going to know less than 5%. And that's okay. It's really, you have to go in, you have to be prepared to learn, double check your work, collaborate with managers, try to learn from previous projects that you work on. At the end of the day, accuracy and a willingness to learn really does go a long way. And if you are able to show that the work you do give is accurate, you're going to build a level of credibility and the learning will always come. But it's just about being meticulous with how you carry yourself and your work. Yeah, I think Raj made a great point about just trying to learn as much as humanly possible. When you start out, again, no one's, you're not going to be expected to know everything. But if you can just take the time to yourself to really learn your role. What are the expectations from you? You can. really make a great impression from people, I think, a lot of individuals at these companies that are through fellowship or whatever way you've gone into industry, they really appreciate professionals who are active learners. So they'll give you a lot of opportunities and of course, being a hard worker, following up when you say you will, those small things go a long way. I think also another thing that builds credibility is how you present, right? When you have one-on-ones, if it's virtual, having your camera on, going in person to meet people, just showing face, I think, builds a sense of credibility and professionalism more than just the work itself. I think industry requires you not just to be knowledgeable on certain technical aspects of the work, but also having those good interpersonal skills to show that you can be a leader and someone who's willing to collaborate with others. You both make great points. I think those soft skills are just as important as the technical skills we need to succeed in the workplace. This episode is brought to you by AstraZeneca. With origins in the early 20th century, AstraZeneca has consistently challenged the current paradigms in science and healthcare. The AstraZeneca Medical Affairs Oncology Fellowship Program with Howard University continues this long tradition of excellence, following the science to understand cancer and deliver transformative treatments for patient populations. The unique two-year fellowship program attracts farm-degraduates who appreciate obtaining clinical experience and PhD graduates who want to shape cancer through innovation, evidence generation, and patient advocacy. This unique partnership is empowering the next generation of leaders at the intersection of science, medicine, and advocacy. And to transition into our next question, what skills do you think are the most important two-be successful in your career, whether it is those soft skills or technical skills? Yeah, I would say in terms of soft skills, hard work, for sure, as Tim had mentioned, and two other points I do want to touch on is actually time management skills and business skills, which could include something, for example, like project management or presentation skills. I think that many of these we actually really do develop during our clinical rotations and pharmacy schools, so definitely don't underestimate your experience here, because these really will build your foundation as you move into industry. For example, like time management skills. How many pharmacy students have worked in a retail setting where you're working on nine different things at one time, and you're constantly juggling many different items with a great time pressure on you? I'm sure all of us have dealt with that in the past, and these are skills that are invaluable in the industry because you're often working on projects that are conflicting in time or urgency, and you really do need to prioritize and be able to multitask. Also, don't be afraid to communicate with your manager about your work loader priorities. Knowing when to say no and how to prioritize is really just as important. Yeah, I would say some of the soft skills that are necessary to succeed in industry. The biggest one is communication. That is the most important thing. You're going to realize that when you're in an industry setting, there's so much information flying around from different forums, different groups, different meetings, and being organized and staying on top of what information is most important and what needs to be communicated to your team. Your stakeholders, your management is a very valuable skill to yourself, and I think will help cement yourself as a leader within your team. I'd also say, like Roger saying, presentation skills. We've worked together, Roger. We've done dozens of presentations on some of the work that we've worked on together, and it's really important to be able to communicate complex information in a concise fashion. I don't in pharmacy school, we're taught to provide a lot of depth and technical expertise on the drug or whatever we're researching, but in an industry setting, the way we convey information, the way we communicate is probably more at a higher level, and so being able to communicate complex info in a simple way will take you very far. I want to switch gears a little bit. I want to talk about everyone's favorite buzzword right now, AI, and I have two regulatory innovators here. How do you approach it in your work? And what role does innovation currently play in your position? Thank you for the compliments. Definitely not the all-knowing being on AI, and I think it's such a huge field. I think even last week, Lena, you had shown me something in AI that I didn't even know you could do, so it's really need to just keep an open mind when it comes to AI and be willing to learn every day because it's expanding and growing so rapidly, but I definitely think it has a potential and is a great tool that you can use to help in many efficiencies throughout your workload, but I also want to make sure that everyone keeps in mind that you need to ensure the accuracy of what it's giving you and you can't fully depend on it. This is especially needed because AI can make these mistakes that we call hallucinations, where it can give you incorrect information, or it can even be trained on that data, which will in turn lead it to giving you bad results. And within the regulatory space specifically, we still don't know exactly how it will be viewed or used as there's still guidances and public workshops that will be coming out in the future from the FDA, but we really just need to keep a year out on what the FDA is releasing regarding all this and really beginning to think about how we can potentially use it to help with our efficiencies. And even if you don't have a full comfort in using it in your critical importance projects, you can always identify different creative ways to use it for it, maybe like administrative work, or even if you're using it for internal development, or even for example, like interviewing skills. One of our previous students she had mentioned, she was using AI to culture on how she's interviewing, and they would listen to her and then give her feedback in terms of where maybe she can improve. I think that's such a innovative way to use AI, and there's really countless ways that you can go about using it, not just for your everyday work, but also just to improve in your career development. I think AI is an incredible tool, and it's something that I encourage everyone to start using. If they haven't already, I've used a chat GPT on my phone and I frequently ask a question or have it research things for me. I think Raj makes great points about ensuring that you understand how the tool works, where it's gathering information from, because ultimately it's just that it's a tool. I sometimes feel when I'm in conversation about artificial intelligence, people are a little bit weary of it, they're scared. It's going to take my job, is it going to do this? I think, to me, artificial intelligence is something that we can leverage to enhance our work, to enhance ourselves, to empower ourselves, to ensure that we are being as efficient as humanly possible. If you are faced with very large text documents, you can use artificial intelligence to summarize and to brief chunks so that you can easily interpret information. You can use it even to IDH strategies, so if you have certain thoughts about how you want to apply a certain regulatory thinking, you could ask questions about poke holes in this. What arguments can be used against what I'm saying? There are so many different applications of artificial intelligence that I think are beneficial to industry professionals, but of course, you just have to make sure that you're double checking your work to ensure that you're not saying anything that isn't accurate or correct. I completely agree. We talked a little bit about it before, but it's amazing to see now that both of you are mentors to students as well. How does it feel to be a mentor to students? I absolutely love being a mentor to students. I had my first precepting opportunity last summer. We had a 10-week rotation in regulatory innovation and we had a student from Pitt come in and she was able to complete her rotation. She did such a great job and it's really rewarding experience. It was my first time precepting, so it was new to me, but it helped me see the value in people management and how you can really help someone jump start their career and giving them experiences that are valuable to them and helping them learn. I recently had another student from Pitt this past summer who, again, was awesome. It really is such a great opportunity to get young professionals who are interested in the work. She provided a lot of value to our team. She was able to present to the clinical team about some regulatory research we did. She even provided this automated FDA meeting calculator that some of the GRLs are using to take out some of the administrative work. So it's really rewarding, so continuing to just a mentor. It's great because I get to learn from them as well. What are they thinking about in terms of careers? What are some of the tools they use to be efficient in their work? And all that helps me grow as a professional, so it's mutually beneficial and I'd recommend anyone listening who has the opportunity to precept to give it a try, you might really enjoy it. Yeah, I echo everything Tim just said. Quick shout out again to Frank Riali, give him a shout out earlier, but he really has been emphasizing this and now that I've been in the industry, I can really see it where students bring this new energy where they are able to add this different perspective to different projects you're working on. I know a lot of times when we're working in the industry, we may get so close to a project that we sometimes forget to take a step back and be able to simplify it or, for example, be able to present it in a manner that the layperson can understand. And I think that students do a great job at being able to provide this fresh perspective. They also are very in tune with these different digital tools and you can really learn a lot from them whether it be digitally an innovation side or just, again, gaining that fresh perspective. So I think it's amazing having students and getting to learn from that. as well as then also being able to give back as we were students at one time and really be able to provide them with mentorship and learning so that they can grow into their careers. I completely agree. I feel like each year we recruit students are just getting more brilliant. This episode is brought to you by the Philadelphia College of Pharmacy at St. Joseph's University. The SJU Pharmaceutical Industry Fellowship Program is dedicated to shaping the future leaders of the pharmaceutical industry. With an emphasis on integrative learning and practical experience, this program equips fellows with the knowledge and skills necessary for success in various pharmaceutical functions. St. Joseph's University's commitment to excellence ensures that fellows are well prepared for influential roles in the industry. So now I just want to ask who are your key mentors? Who facilitated your career growth? Yeah, I would say for me I've been lucky to have great mentors at every stage of my career. I had actually been paired up with a few different fellows when I was working in pharmacy school and then once I had finished pharmacy school and was in my clinical rotations, I had many preceptors who also really helped to provide me with some growth and learnings. And then once I joined Merck full-time and also before that as a contractor, all my different managers have really been in the industry for dozens of years and they have all these different learnings that I can just be a sponge and absorb from them. And I think that each of my individual managers have taught me something that's really valuable from their own experiences. So yeah, I cannot be grateful enough for all of them. Yeah, I would echo what Raj said. I think through pharmacy school, our curriculum is really interesting and that you have so many rotations, so you have the opportunity to work with different professionals in all different working environments with that retail, hospital industry, or something else. So yeah, I've been very grateful to have people who have taken an interest in me and provided me perspective on what I want to do because even the experiences that I wasn't exactly thrilled about, I think it was a part of my professional development and helped me get to where I am today. So I can't think of anyone, one person in particular, I think even people who aren't necessarily older than me are further along in their career classmates or friends who have shown initiative and drive in their own way has inspired me to be like them and take more initiative and start aspects of my academic and professional career. So I think my tours can be really anyone that you admire and can connect with. Thank you both for sharing, I think those are all very important points. This episode is brought to you by University of the Pacific's Thomas J Long School of Pharmacy. Their fellowship in industry program aims to develop top 10% talent to become future leaders in the diverse areas within the pharmaceutical industry. They prioritize the trainee and the quality of the training. University of the Pacific's fellowship in industry program looks forward to welcoming you into their Pacific family. What unexpected lessons have you learned in your career? I would say for me it's the smallest connections can make the biggest impact and I had mentioned that in the start of my career at Merck, I met one person through a small slide networking conversation and that's really what blossomed into eventually getting a contracting role and then a full-time role. And so I would say that's really the unexpected part for me is I didn't realize how large of a part networking would play in my career development and it really is a central piece. So don't be afraid to go out there network. I know a lot of times it's easy to just maybe not go to that networking event, maybe not want to go up to those random people and talk to them, but at the end of the day it's really about growth and getting out of your comfort zone. And I think that's really the biggest piece that I've taken from transitioning from pharmacy school into working full-time at industry. Yeah I would say unexpected lessons. Yeah I think being horizontal growth is just as important as vertical growth. You can do work in a certain area of regulatory or clinical or whatever part of pharmaceutical industry, but it's good to have stretch assignments in different groups in different areas because I think understanding the business as a whole will help you in turn understand the value of the work that you're doing. I think each time I'm going to do assignment or the longer I work here at America, it starts to become a greater appreciation for the business of pharmaceutical industry and how much value it has, how much value regulatory has to the company. And that's because I do different aspects of regulatory that you might not see in regulatory strategy. So I would say when you first start in your career of course build that solid foundation, that initial skill set, but don't be afraid to stretch horizontal into other areas that you may not initially think are important because it'll round you out and give you more perspective that would do and also the people that you work with that you know so much about the business and you can add value in a unique way. I completely agree with the both of you. One thing I learned is if you're not uncomfortable, you're not growing and both of your answers truly encompass that. So thank you, Roger Tim. We have now come to our bonus round. So a few fun questions I'm going to ask you. Yeah, my answer is pretty clear. It's definitely pasta. I am still on that college diet, I think, where I make pasta like six times a week, but it just brings me joy. So yeah, pasta. This is a really funny question. Let's say my answer is cheesets. Now I understand that cheesets are not like if I if that's all I would have enough nutrients to survive, but that's my favorite snack by far. Cheesed duos are delicious. Probably that and/or rice. I think I make rice every other day. It goes with everything. It's easy to make, invest in a good rice cooker. It's worth it. So probably cheesets followed by rice. All right. My next question is how do you hype yourself up? Whether it's listening to music or having a meditation session before an important meeting or presentation? For me, it's yeah, listening to music actually. I think music is probably one of the biggest pizzas of my life. And whether it's walking down the street or just like sitting in my room, I feel like I always have headphones in. So music is really how I choose to hype myself up. I'm a big electronic dance music guy. So I'll be sitting in the office just listening to some EDM blasting my ear right before a presentation, but it's just how I center myself. Now I know you're listening to. I thought you're in meetings. Only sometimes. Yeah, I think for myself, I'm actually the opposite. Although I do love music, I think when I'm preparing for a big meeting or I have the deliverable to be done, I like to have my peace and quiet and just focus whether I'm at home or I might go into a room. But for me, what helps me, I get hyped up is just preparation, just checking the boxes, do I have what I need? And understanding that people want you to succeed. Nobody wants to see you fail. So if I'm giving a presentation, people want me to do well. And if I, if they have questions that I don't know the answer to, you have to have the confidence to say, I don't know, or reach back out to them after the meeting with any follow-ups. You can't know everything, which you can prepare to the best of your ability. So it's understanding that when you're on a cross-functional team or you're collaborating with people, they want you to win. So I think that kind of takes the nerves away from me and helps me focus on my work. My last question is, if you could give one piece of advice for audience to take away, what would you give them? I would say that it'll work out. Don't stress too much. And that's something I really wish I could tell even my younger self. Really try to enjoy where you are and always have a game plan for where you want to go. As this will really help the path clear up for how you get there. But at the same time, don't stress too much. Try to enjoy the present. And yeah, the growth will come. You don't need to know everything from day one. But again, just try to keep a clear head and just keep moving forward every day, whether it's they're taking one step out of time or one inch, just it'll happen. You do not need to be an expert at day one. Yeah, I think that's great advice from Raj. Yeah, don't rush. Don't stress. Take your time. One rotation at a time. One internship at a time. Talk to people. Talk to your classmates. Talk to co-fellows. Professionals. Use your LinkedIn. Use all the resources that you have available to you just to know what's going on in the industry. And then I think it'll serve you well. I know when I was going through my P-4 year, I was super stressed about fellowship interviews. And looking back, I shouldn't have been as stressed. I should have talked to more people and had more of a plan. And I think it would have given me peace of mind. Although I winds it up getting a fellowship, I think my advice to people going into it. If that's the path you take as to, yeah, take your time. I don't stress too much. Thank you so much, Tim and Raj, for coming on, taking the time and sharing your insights with the audience. It's been such a pleasure to have you both on. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for having us. And to our listeners, thank you for joining the IPHO podcast. Until next time, everyone. Thank you.