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Speaker 4The family of Missing Bathurst woman, Janine Vaughan, has made an emotional plea for information into her whereabouts. To be quite blunt with you, the moment this, if he's done it, arrests the man.
Speaker 5This stuff has tortured me for a long time. It drives me insane. It breaks my freaking heart.
Speaker 3The end of the academic year at the Scott School in Bathurst coincides with Speech Day. It's a proud tradition. Speech Day in 2001 fell on Tuesday, December 4. Afterwards, the school's historic buildings would empty. Its hectares of grounds and playing fields would become quiet. Speech Day meant that the Scots boarders would pack up and head home for the summer. But in one of the Scots boarding colleges called Bulkley House, boarding master Andrew Jones remained living alone. Jones would become a prominent person of interest. For the police homicide squad, but in those early stages of the investigation, he was effectively cleared. Jones had come to the Scott School 18 months earlier.
Speaker 6Dear Mr. Jones, further to our conversation of this afternoon, I am pleased to offer you a position as a member of the resident staff at the Scott School from 17th July 2000. The school will provide accommodation as well as meals during term time. No remuneration is paid for. Your duties. Yours sincerely, Adrian Lamrock, Principal.
Speaker 3The conditions suited Jones. He was working as a pharmacist in town by day. Outside of work, he was something of a loner.
Speaker 6You are required to be in residence to fulfil your duty commitments during term time. It is expected that all resident staff will set a high standard of personal conduct while at the school. Overnight visitors are not permitted to stay in the quarters of residence.
Speaker 3A deeply spiritual man, he often ate alone and socialised little. Jones had found a comfortable, well-located, temporary home. The atmosphere and culture at a renowned private school suited him too. He was used to this. He had obtained his higher school certificate at the Elite Knox Grammar on Sydney's leafy upper north shore. The school boasts a record of extraordinary learning since 1924, and it lists former Prime Minister Goffman. Whitlam and five Rhodes Scholars among its old boys. Jones graduated from Knox in 1981, winning the Biology Prize in his final year. He had also been the Open Rugby Goal-Kicking Champion the year before.
Speaker 6Resident staff are expected to take part in some additional activity at the school. Usually, this would be coaching a sporting team or assisting with some other co-curricular activity as arranged with the principal. I look forward to you. I look forward to you joining the Scots community.
Speaker 3Jones duly signed his acceptance. He was more than happy to become immersed in these activities at Scots, coaching basketball and the 4th XI soccer team, and also refereeing some rugby union. He was a stocky 190 centimetres tall, and he had played rugby after he left school with the Highlanders. This is the Gordon Rugby Club on Sydney's north shore. After leaving Knox Grammar, Jones headed to Sydney University. He studied Pharmacy, graduating in 1985. But uppermost in the mind of a man who listed fitness, skiing and alpine hiking among his interests was the prospect of trekking in Nepal. Just as soon as he was registered, Jones took off to the tiny kingdom. He worked at the Western Regional Hospital in Pokhara, on the eastern side of the Seti Gandaki River, with the Himalayas as a backdrop. After Pokhara, Jones did some travelling in Europe, and studied for three years. He then went to the University of Sydney, where he studied for three years, and then went back to Sydney. He also studied for three months in Switzerland, then he headed home to hospital pharmacy work for seven years. But Nepal and its majestic peaks continued to beckon. There was the challenging trekking, of course, but there was also something deeper, something deeply spiritual. The mid-1990s again saw Jones working as a pharmacist in Nepal, first in Kathmandu and afterwards back in Pokhara. When he returned to Australia, he worked in Sydney and then Gosford. But still a deeper spiritual journey was calling. It led him to a year's full-time study for a Diploma in Bible and Mission at the Moore Bible College in Sydney's Newtown. Peter Jensen, who would go on to become the Anglican Archbishop of Sydney, was Principal of the college during Jones' time there. On completion of his Diploma at Moore College, Jones drove three hours west to Bathurst. It was January 2000. Six months later, he was ensconced in the north of Sydney. He returned to his home in the north of Sydney. In the resume that got him the role at Scots, Jones lists Renault motorcars among his interests and hobbies. Jones drove a Renault in Bathurst, a 1994 19 Series, a red one, registration number TCV836. A red car played a central role in the sinister events that enveloped Lynette Borland as she walked on the other side of McAtee Park about 10 minutes before Janine disappeared into a red car. Based on witness descriptions, the car Janine got into could have been a red Renault 19 Series. But it also could have been any number of other red cars of various makes and models. Nobody has specifically stated the car was a Renault. Lynette Boland was near the Oxford Tavern, the Ox, when she first saw the car. You heard her detailed story and evidence in episode four.
Speaker 5I said to myself, this is not right, this is bad, get out of here, go. I ran as far as I could from that point. He was a big man, about six foot tall. He didn't look like he fitted in that car. He looked too big for the car.
Speaker 3She said the car was small, red and making a low revving noise. It drove past her slowly, disappeared, then returned. A man spoke to her. She remembered that he said, excuse me, can I have a word with you? He sounded formal, like a person in authority. Lynette got the rego number and wrote it down on a piece of paper, but then she gave that scrap of paper away. Her best recollection was that the rego of the car had the letters I-C-U. Write down those letters in capitals, I-C-U. Then underneath, the actual letters of Jones's Renault, T-C-V.
Speaker 7It was school holidays because it was during the day and no one was around. I was 17.
Speaker 3Kate is a teacher in a private girls' school. She's married and she's moved far from Bathurst. But in the days after Janine disappeared, Kate was still a student of the Scots school. One afternoon, she was sitting alone, waiting for her student boyfriend to finish his part-time job. She remembers that he was tending to the cricket pitch at the school. Early in this podcast series, Kate sent me a message about Andrew Jones, and she agreed to describe her experience in our subsequent telephone interviews. Just as best you can recall, where were you and what did he say?
Speaker 7I was on the steps of the boarding house. I distinctly remember steps of the boarding house looking out over the oval and there's a driveway at the front. There's a main drive that goes through the whole campus.
Speaker 3What you're about to hear from Kate will be news to many people. Janine's sister Kylie and the rest of her family and friends are hearing about this from Kate for the first time in this episode. Kate did not make a statement to police as a teenager in late 2001 or subsequently. She didn't see any reason to talk about this experience at all since she raised it about 19 years ago with her family, until now. And later in this episode, you're going to hear about other women and their claims. Importantly, you're going to hear very strenuous, emphatic denials from Andrew Jones. denials that he has ever done anything whatsoever along the lines of what is being claimed by these women. It's very important to stress this. Andrew Jones says it simply did not happen.
Speaker 7He got out of his car in front of me. He's like, oh, you, right? I said, yeah, I'm fine. I'm just sitting here and he's like, are you waiting for someone? I said, yep.
Speaker 3Kate has asked me to leave her surname out of this podcast. Out of this podcast. She recalls details.
Speaker 7I remember which set of stairs I was sitting on. It was summer, it was sunny, so shorts, T-shirt, maybe runners or thongs or something like that. And he's like, oh, well, if you don't want to wait, I can drive you home. And I remember thinking I didn't say I was going home. And then I just went, oh, no, I'm fine. I've got my car here. He goes, oh, well, if you don't want to drive, you can just leave your car here and I can take you. And I just looked at him, I thought, no, I'm fine. Like, I'm waiting for someone and why would I leave my car here? So I didn't ever have anything to do with him because if he was in the boarding house, that would have been the boys' boarding house, which was on site. He had no purpose to talk to me. That was why that was weird to me. Like, he wasn't a teacher. I didn't have that usual, like, you know, morning Mr So-and-so or whatever interaction. He was just this guy that was, like, always around in the background.
Speaker 3Kate is confident that this occurred in mid-December 2000 and one, about a week to 10 days after Janine had disappeared into a small red car. Kate said she definitely recognised the man, Andrew Jones. Jones wasn't doing groundwork and he wasn't a teacher. Kate didn't know then that he was a pharmacist. She just knew he was often present.
Speaker 7Janine was missing at the time.
Speaker 8She was already missing.
Speaker 7Yeah, she was already missing at the time. It was very early on, so it was very fresh. And what triggered me to even more so say something to Dad is because I knew of the red car situation because Dad had warned me, like, if you're going out and you see a red car, like, don't approach it.
Speaker 3As luck would have it, Kate's father was a public servant and he was directly involved in helping coordinate the search for Janine Vaughan. Around the dinner table, Kate was told that Janine had got into a red car. Her father and mother were always on about stranger danger. They stressed the risks in the days after Janine vanished as Kate's father traipsed over Mount Panorama with numerous searches. Kate was troubled by her experience that afternoon. She's very sure it was a weekday afternoon because her boyfriend worked on weekdays and it was in the 10 days from Monday 10 December 2001.
Speaker 7I went home and went, this guy just approached me at school and Dad, he drives a red car. And Dad talked to his colleagues and I thought that that was the end of it. Until I heard your podcast this morning, I didn't even know that it went further. I didn't even know that he was actually considered a suspect. So it would have been within, you know, a week or even a fortnight of Janine going missing.
Speaker 3Kate explained the discomfort that she said she and other girlfriends felt in the presence of Jones when he was in the grounds before the event when she says he asked her if she wanted a lift in his red car.
Speaker 7The girls in particular, we all talked about it. Oh, there's that guy again, kind of thing. But I do remember us all just noticing him when we're playing netball or something. And we're like, what is he doing? And there'd just be this guy in the background that didn't seem to be doing anything. Like he'd just be standing, watching us play sport or just around. And because he wasn't a teacher, we always just used to look at him and be like, what is he doing? You know, and then we moved on because we were kids. We didn't think anything further of it. As you walked around, you're just like, why is he here again? So when he approached me, I was already uncomfortable. But the fact that he like pulled up his car in front of me, got out, walked towards me, I was already aware of him. But it was the first time he actually had an interaction with me because I was so nervous about the fact that I'd gotten this guy in trouble. Dad didn't really tell me that they were actually investigating him.
Speaker 9So he worked in the pharmacy in that shopping centre?
Speaker 7Yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3The first time I interviewed Kate, she had a little more to add.
Speaker 7Women get approached by creepy men all the time. That's not the first weird interaction I've had in my life and it's probably not the last.
Speaker 9Do you remember whether there were other adults near you?
Speaker 7No, the whole campus was practically empty. Definitely no teachers were around.
Speaker 9So I'm not necessarily saying I subscribe to this view, but I just want to hit you with it. Just to test your reaction to it. Why couldn't that man, Andrew Jones, have been trying to help you thinking, oh, it's getting late in the day or she looks like she's in need of a lift? Yeah. I've got to help her out.
Speaker 7Totally. There is a view that that could have been the case. The fact that even now as an adult working in a school, if I found out that any staff member, male or female, was offering a student to get into their car, that would be a red flag for me. But the fact that I actually told him that I had my car there and he told me, we'll leave your car here, I'll take you. To me, it doesn't make any sense. If he was that worried about me, then why wouldn't he say, well, I'll sit with you until the person you're waiting for arrives because you have a way home, your car. There was other ways to look after me if he was genuinely concerned for my welfare. Asking me to leave my car behind to get into his when he wasn't going in that direction, he wasn't familiar with me. We're not allowed to even have kids in our cars even if we have permission from their parents. There's such strict rules. I'm sure there would have been something like that, maybe not as strict. But there were just too many factors that I just went, this doesn't feel right. If he was a teacher that I spoke to every week, might have been different, there might have been a relationship there with general care for my welfare. But he was essentially a stranger. It's like someone coming up to you in the street and saying, hey, do you want to lift home? Like, that's weird.
Speaker 3Kate told me that back then, as a 17-year-old, she had actually worried when she told her father, she was briefly concerned that she had done the wrong thing by raising the incident with her father.
Speaker 7And then when he told me, he told the police, I went, oh, no, no, like, I don't want to get him in trouble. What if he was just being nice? And dad's like, well, if he was just being nice, then he's got nothing to worry about. And so I went, yep, okay, valid point. For me, this happened so close to a pretty significant event in Bathurst. And I guess I had a sense of what was right and what was wrong growing up with dad obviously being involved in the industry. Mum was a drug and alcohol counsellor. I knew when to speak up and when not to speak up. I know that in the process, people's reputations have actually been tainted, which has been unfortunate. But at the end of the day, that's nowhere near as significant as a woman going missing and potentially being murdered.
Speaker 3An informant drew the police to Jones' red Renault soon after Janine's disappearance. And Jones said back then that he was happy to speak to police. A note was made on the police file on December 28, exactly three weeks after Janine disappeared. Jones was spoken to at the Bathurst police station by plainclothed Senior Constable Guy McGee.
Speaker 10His bona fides were checked and his vehicle searched. Nils was suspicious about Jones or the vehicle. Jones was very cooperative and is employed in town as a pharmacist.
Speaker 3By New Year's Day 2002, Janine had been missing for three weeks. Right around that time, Jones wrote to the Scott School's principal, Adrian Lamrock, seeking a reference. Jones had decided to leave.
Speaker 11Dear Adrian, Best wishes for a new year and I hope you had a restful holiday so far. I would like to request a reference or certificate of service summarising my contribution to the school. The areas where I did participate, as you know, include Borders Chapel, coaching basketball and soccer, and refereeing rugby union. This would be a great help as I'm presently compiling my resume. Thank you, Adrian, for your leadership and example. During my time at the school, it's been an inspiration. My prayers are with you as you continue to reform and improve the Scott School. Yours sincerely, Andrew Jones.
Speaker 3Something prompted police to talk again to Jones. On January 11, 2002, an investigator's note was added to the file. It states that Jones, who was then 38 years old, was interviewed by Detective Senior Constable Jason Dickinson at the Bathurst Police Station. That Friday morning.
Speaker 12Jones is a locum pharmacist working in Bathurst, Lithgow and the Orange areas. He also has a second job supervising the students at Scott School. Jones drives a 1994 Renault sedan, red in colour, registered number TCV836. Jones was questioned regarding any association he had with Vaughan. Jones stated that he had worked at the chemist in the same shopping centre as Vaughan. He stated that he knew Vaughan in that he had seen her working in the shop and recognised her as the missing girl in the paper, but he was not friendly with her. Jones stated that he bought a shirt off Vaughan in late November 2001 after spilling ink on his shirt at work. He stated that was the last time he saw her. Also stated that he had remembered the girls at work talking about Vaughan having gone missing following the media coverage. Jones was questioned regarding his movements on the evening of Thursday 6 December and the morning of Friday 7 December.
Speaker 3The note in the file states that Jones said he had worked at the pharmacy in Lithgow on the Thursday in question. Lithgow is a smaller town about a 45 minute drive east of Bathurst. Jones said he finished work about 6pm and then went across the road to the bowling club where he ate alone.
Speaker 12He then travelled to his minister's house at College Road, Bathurst, arriving about 7.30pm.
Speaker 3Jones told police he stayed until about 9.30pm at the house of this minister, Dave Coy, from the Bathurst Christian Evangelical Church. church. He added that he then turned to the Scott
Speaker 12School and went to bed. Jones resides alone. He stated that he did not see any person or speak with any person after returning home. Jones stated that he was at home all night and that he had had the day off on Friday, December 7.
Speaker 3About the same time, a wrinkle appeared in Jones's quiet, almost monastic life. There was a dispute involving the matron of the Scott School's Bulkley House. Six days after talking to Detective Dickinson, Jones wrote to Principal Adrian Lamrock.
Speaker 11Dear Adrian, thank you for providing the reference. It's much appreciated. I'm writing to find out if the school's insurance policy covers for damage done to my personal property recently by the matron of Bulkley House. Two separate incidents have left me out of pocket by $300. My brand new racing bike was pushed out the second floor fire exit and my brand new Nike running shoes, $160. were discarded in the rubbish after one of her cleanups. Her behaviour is erratic and totally unreasonable. Best wishes, Andrew.
Speaker 3Principal Lamrock's reply six days later was equally brief and courteous. He explained that the school's insurance policy would probably not cover Jones's property.
Speaker 6As I understand, you have moved from the school and I would be grateful if you could make arrangements for the return of keys and payment of your outstanding phone calls, if any. I hope you will maintain some links with the school in the coming year, maybe refereeing the odd rugby match or preaching at chapel occasionally. Please do stay in touch.
Speaker 3A few weeks later, in early March 2002, police approached Jones again. He repeated what he had told the police a couple of months previously, although this time there were a few more details. Jones told police he was working at and moving between a number of pharmacies in the area surrounding Bathurst when Janine was found dead. He said he was working at and moving between a number of pharmacies in the area surrounding Bathurst when Janine disappeared. He worked at the Terry White chemist at Orange, the Sol Pattinson chemist at Cowra, the Amcal chemist in Bathurst and the Health Sense Pharmacy at Lithgow. He again repeated the details about his movements on the evening Janine was out with friends and his visit to the minister's house in Bathurst that night. He said he parked his red Renault directly in front of the boarding house opposite the Oval. He could not recall what he had done on his day off on the Friday night. He said he had been to the hospital when Janine's friends began to hold grave fears for her. Jones again recalled the shirt purchase that he had made in November. There were a few other purchases months earlier. Then the police interview took a different tack.
Speaker 13Jones was asked if he had any objection to having his vehicle photographed and possibly examined at a later date if police inquiries revealed it was necessary. Jones stated that he wished to obtain legal advice before consenting to this course of action. Jones was also asked if he would be prepared to volunteer a photograph and DNA sample at a later time to assist in the investigation. The procedure and elimination purpose was explained to Jones by Detective McFawn. Jones repeated that he wished to seek legal advice before answering those questions.
Speaker 3There's another note written by police after Jones was interviewed at the police station that day in March 2002. Jones attended
Speaker 13the Bathurst police station later that day where he wrote a note to station message page that any inquiry should be conducted through his solicitor. Jones is approximately 190 centimetres tall with short well-groomed dark hair, clean shaven with an Australian sounding voice.
Speaker 3Nicole Nolan remembers Andrew Jones pretty well. They worked in the same shopping centre. Janine was working there too.
Speaker 14There's quite a sort of chap, just the polite, not overly friendly, just the pharmacy man. The girls did, more of the work at the front counter when they served you. He wasn't anything that raised alarm bells or he was an unassuming person. Polite, did his job, no threat to anyone really. Didn't jump out in any way, shape or form as a person to anyone. He was just quite a chap. He was almost like, forgive me, like the wall. He was there but he wasn't there. Does that make sense? He wasn't someone that's jumping out and being your best friend. And genetically, he wasn't. He wasn't was street savvy. She wasn't stupid. And Janine was vivacious. The people that struck her were more vivacious type people that had, you know, a bit of a personality and have a laugh. As I said, she was quick-witted, have a laugh, shyer people. She would have walked past and said, hi, if he said hi.
Speaker 3And just a reminder about some of the people speaking in this episode. You're hearing Nicole Nolan now from an interview we did in Bathurst. For police from Bathurst in the early weeks of the year, we had a lot of people speaking in Bathurst. We had a lot of of the murder investigation. And for the heads of the Scott School and for Andrew Jones and his lawyer where there are written statements, I'm replaying their words, but not their own voices.
Speaker 14I couldn't picture Janine getting in the chemist man's car because he wasn't someone that you'd frequently talk to.
Speaker 3Jones had certainly seen Janine in her menswear store. And she had seen him in his nearby pharmacy. Janine had also worked in one of the related menswear stores in the nearby town of Lithgow. Jones occasionally worked in Lithgow too. I suggested to Nicole what seemed to me to be an uncontroversial idea that familiar, medically trained men are more likely to be trusted by women, more likely to be perceived by women to be unthreatening. Nicole disagreed. So the fact that someone has a, you know,
Speaker 15white collar professional job doesn't make a difference.
Speaker 14It doesn't make them a safe,
Speaker 15person. Doesn't mitigate the risk for you.
Speaker 14No. Okay. No. Even if you see them every day, it doesn't make them safe. What makes them safe is some sort of friendliness with you and some sort of relationship with you where over a period of time you've built up some sort of trust factor. Right. And I do believe she was that type of person too. He wouldn't have even offered her a lift because he didn't appear that sort of person.
Speaker 15But he became a person of interest.
Speaker 14Which makes me wonder why. It boggles my mind why he is a person of interest. I don't, understand. He was just the quiet chemist man.
Speaker 3Peter Murphy and I have reviewed thousands of documents generated by various official investigations over the past two decades. We've been struck by a couple of things. First, the determined focus of police on Jones, particularly since around the time of the coroner's inquest in 2009. And second, the relatively thin, publicly available investigative holdings in relation to Jones. It is possible that detectives are deliberately trying to get a hold of Jones, but they're not. They're not. They're not. They're keeping other evidence up their sleeve on Jones and a range of other persons of interest. The homicide squad's Scott Cook in 2019 hinted strongly at this when he stood with Janine's family and took questions at a media conference to talk about a red car, DNA, and a reward of $1 million. Here's Scott Cook again from that media conference in early 2019.
Speaker 16During the course of the investigation, we seized a small red vehicle. In that vehicle, we have DNA samples that we've recovered from the vehicle. We can now go into familial DNA more and look at bloodlines and so on. At this point in time, we're putting a million dollars on the table so that anyone who has any information is encouraged to come forward to complement the current investigative strategies that we're undertaking.
Speaker 3It seemed like a big call. Samples from a car seized 10 years ago. The potential for Janine's DNA to be in those samples. It begged a question. If there was a good chance to extract Janine's DNA from the car's samples, why hold a media conference seeking public help? DNA is usually the magic bullet in murder investigations. But Scott Cook went further. It seemed calculated to rattle the former owner of the red car. And perhaps this was part of the strategy all along.
Speaker 16But certainly, we know who the owner was at the time. I have no doubt we'll continue in interviewing people and there will be people who we go back to.
Speaker 3A journalist asked the senior police officer a tough question. Did the driver of that car give evidence at the inquest a decade earlier? Cook hesitated. Then he answered yes. The car police seized a decade ago was the Renault 19, Andrew Jones's old car. He left Bathurst many years ago and he continues to issue powerful protests of innocence.
Speaker 17Now this is what Lynette Borland got to look at when she was told to go through these photos. I'll just get to where I need it to be. This is some of the mug shots that she sort of had to look at.
Speaker 15How do you get all this stuff? There's an internal police file.
Speaker 17And even my detectives this time around said to me, Kylie, how come you have so much? I have the CCT footage from the night she went missing. How do you have that? They say. I don't know how I have these things. I just have them.
Speaker 15Well, don't give up your sauce.
Speaker 17No. So yeah, I've got all of this. Now this is the photo of Jones that she was shown.
Speaker 3Lynette Borland was shown a series of numbered photographs of men, one of whom was Jones and Lynette was asked if she recognised any of them as being in the red car that night. Borland did not pick Jones out. And he occasionally shopped at Janine's store? At Harris, yes.
Speaker 15OK, and he'd bought some things. Yes. And I don't think he hid that from police. No. But he said he had nothing to do with Janine's disappearance. Why do you believe he became so important as a person of interest in the police investigation?
Speaker 17I think the car, for one, because it was, you know, the number plates were very similar. The fact that he was a bigger man that could fit the description of what Lynette Borland had actually said, you know, it was a bit big for the car, he didn't quite suit the kind of car that he was driving. He worked in the same shopping centre where she was. And I was very surprised. People are still coming forward and saying, who's Jones? Who's Briggs? They've all had their eye on the policeman, that these other two guys have just gone unnoticed. And that's one of the problems with this case.
Speaker 15Yeah. Because the public interest is fractured in terms of the person of interest. Do you have a preference now? Do you have a bias one way or the other?
Speaker 3No. Andrew Jones still leads a quiet life, this time in a town in the Blue Mountains, west of Sydney. I wrote to him long before the release of any episodes in this series. He did not reply. Network 10 reporter Steve Hart took a more front-foot approach in early 2019.
Speaker 18Was she ever in your little red car, the Renault 19?
Speaker 3Never been in my car. Didn't know her. Steve Hart looked for Jones after the Sydney media conference in which the homicide squad's then-head Scott Cook spoke about the analysis of DNA samples taken from that car, seized a decade ago. Jones' red car.
Speaker 19Eventually I did find him and sent him some messages and the indication was that he was perhaps willing to speak to me at some point when the time came. But that time just kept getting pushed away and we had lots of messages and back and forth and all quite cryptic. I figured out Andrew really didn't want to speak with me on the record anyway.
Speaker 3Jones urged Steve to be factual and truthful. Call out the lies. There were text exchanges which Steve has shared with me for this podcast series.
Speaker 11Did you realise the car of interest was described by an eyewitness as a very small and very pink two-door hatchback, a Hyundai? Now that is a lot different to a dark red Renault sedan with four doors, don't you think? How does a Hyundai suddenly become a Renault?
Speaker 3Jones is referring here to the first description provided by Ian Bryant. In his podcast, his police statement the day after Janine got into the car, Bryant stated the car was pink or red. He couldn't be sure. Bryant said the car was small like a Hyundai XL. His police statement did not have him saying it was definitely a Hyundai. Bryant said it was similar to that make, so possibly a Hyundai. Bryant was uncertain about whether it had two doors or four doors. He said, I think it may, may have been a two-door, but I'm not too sure. Lynette Borland, in her first police statement, said the car was little and it was not a hatchback. She said she remembered it had four doors. Andrew Jones sent another text to Steve Hart.
Speaker 11An old dark red Renault does not resemble in any way a newish pink Hyundai hatch. Mine was a sedan. I have never owned a new tinted pinky Hyundai hatchback ever. You can't tell me I don't bargain for the truth, Steve. It's been a long while since I owned that car. I'm going out now, but I'm not sure I fully trust you yet.
Speaker 19He just didn't trust me. He didn't trust the police. He felt persecuted over the years. Maybe that's the case. But I just felt that he had never sat down and been properly questioned by an inquiry because his solicitors and lawyers at the time said his legal advice was not to do that. And he was not. He wasn't too keen for me to question him either. Once I'd figured out where Andrew, I thought, lived, went to have a visit to his house, knocked on the door. There was no sign of anyone there. It's a fairly residential type of area on the edge of bushland. Not many people seem to know much about Andrew. They say he's a lovely, quiet man, keeps to himself. His home is quite large. I believe he lives there by himself. I don't believe he's ever been married or has any family. He was working as a locum farmer. He was a pharmacist. He moved around the state as a pharmacist and worked in different places. And I know that he has strong religious convictions, strong Christian convictions. It was difficult to really get a gauge on his character because nobody seemed to know too much about him other than he was a friendly enough chap but kept to himself.
Speaker 3And that's one of the striking things about Andrew's profile is it's very thin. There isn't much there. There wasn't much there during the inquest either when evidence, in relation to the three persons of interest was aired.
Speaker 19It's just a fascinating story, isn't it? Janine Vaughan having a great night out just disappears off the face of the earth. How does that happen? And the longer I've spent on this looking for something, smoking guns, some evidence, the more I do pose that same question. Could it be someone else that they haven't even looked at? Well, Kylie is a determined, persistent woman who's obviously, just really missing her big sister. The more you speak to Kylie, the more you want to try and help find those answers. Answers that she, her brother Adam and the rest of the family really need. So Kylie's not going to let this go. You've met her and you know her well. She's someone who's going to keep going with this all the way, isn't she?
Speaker 20She's a remarkable force of nature. She just doesn't stop.
Speaker 3Kylie only knows one speed. It's full throttle, straight ahead, with no fear, no looking back. This podcast is made possible by subscribers to The Australian and our principal sponsor, Harvey Norman. Since late 2017, when I started pursuing Chris Dawson for the 1982 murder of his wife, Lynn, Harvey Norman has been a loyal backer. It began with The Teacher's Pet and Harvey Norman and its CEO, Katie Page's support, and her husband, has continued for over eight years. I'm proud to have had their backing on all of mine and The Australian's investigative podcasts, The Night Driver, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy, The Teacher's Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Bronwyn, and most recently, The Sick to Death podcast. For more information on this podcast, go to theaustralian.com.au.
Speaker 4You know how you do it. You say, don't do this, or do this, or don't do this, or did another one of those don't do this moments. Yeah. Today, and I rang Jones, and he answered. And he's a really lovely guy. And I'm just completely thrown again. He said, I don't know what you want from me. I've got nothing to do with your sister's disappearance.
Speaker 3It's typical of Kylie's character to telephone Andrew Jones, a key person of interest in this murder investigation. Kylie is desperate for answers. But it's also the kind of thing that the police detectives assigned to the case have actively discouraged her from doing for a long time.
Speaker 4So people just keep hounding me and he just said it's completely ruined his life. And he went in to tell me that the police have harassed him and they also threatened him as well in the beginning. So I'm actually Janine Bourne's sister. And he's gone. He pulled out. And he just said, what do you want from me? And I'm just like, I don't want anything from you. I want you just to, you know, I'm just ringing you because I haven't spoken to you before. And I just want your side of events. He said, well, there's no events to tell. I haven't done anything. He's trying to pin me for something that I haven't done. He said, I've got a red car. Yes. And I shopped at your sister's store. Yes. He said, I probably got served by her once. But just the way he spoke to me and the way he, like he wasn't fumbling, like, like this poor stupid man on the TV. He was together and he was, and I've called him out of the blue. Like, it's not like he's had time to think about what he's going to talk to me about. And he was really good. Did he indicate to you why he was in the crosshairs of the police investigation, in his view?
Speaker 3Andrew Jones told Kylie he had no idea about this. Jones told Kylie that a police officer friend of Brad Hoseman's had asked Jones to come to Bathurst Police Station for him. before the first interview. This officer was Guy McGee and he reported in an internal note that Jones was very cooperative and that there was nil suspicion over him.
Speaker 4He said, I have gotten to the point where it has almost been too much for me to handle, for me to deal with. Did you find him believable, credible? Certainly did. Certainly did. You know, he said I'm a nice person. He said I've got a kind heart. He even said to me at one point, oh, "I will pray for you and I've got a religious, "you know, I really believe in you." have faith and so he just went into that and but you didn't expect that he would admit it if he had killed janine no but i i wanted him to be the person that was on tv i thought he was going to be this fumbling like just all scared and and not know what to say and maybe i would have said well what about this and what about that and that's how he was he said i'm just so sick of it ruined my life did you find him persuasive carly very persuasive he just just the way he spoke and then he said to me look i don't drive around at night in my car that's just not what i do i wouldn't do that i really wish i had spoken to these men in the beginning when they kept telling me don't you dare speak to anybody i mean you know threatening adam that we're going to get locked up and it's all a clock of shit who was telling you to not make these calls all our detectives have always said to us you can't you're going to tell the police that you contacted him they'll know if they're listening into everything that he's doing he said i just was there to do my job i worked in the bathroom shopping center doing my job and go home that's all i was wanting to do and then i've been roped into this murder investigation and it's ruined my life i just wish i had to call them so much sooner headly i really do because i wouldn't have tortured myself for 20 years that sounds like a lot of work and i'm not going to be able to do it you're getting some comfort from just talking to them i think i am i think i am so i've had my demons he's got his demons all to do with my sister going missing so there's a connection
Speaker 20there if he was going to talk to anybody it was you because of that connection that you described i agree i i think that he would have just put the phone down um yeah with me and i would get that i would totally understand that but anyway so
Speaker 4that was my phone call today you know how i
Speaker 20said that you know you're a loose cannon yeah
Speaker 4that was pretty loose today
Speaker 20mate yeah well you're you're a loose cannon and an unguided missile okay i know
Speaker 3some weeks after that conversation i contacted kylie to follow up something else i've
Speaker 20sent a message to trish salt do you remember her yep yep okay so i hope that she gets back to me
Speaker 3kylie is regularly contacted online by people she doesn't know there are clairvoyants for example each with a wildly different vision of the location of janine's remains there are women with no direct connection but a suspicion over an ex-husband or boyfriend with threatening or violent tendencies there are time wasters and trolls and there are current and former locals of bathurst who knew janine or one of the three key persons of interest who knew janine or one of the three key persons of interest we believe trish salt falls into this last category i'm going to spend a bit of time on this because my friend the retired judge peter murphy and i believe trish could be very important as part of this podcast investigation i received copies of kylie's facebook and texting conversations with many people in mid-2018 trish salt wrote to kylie about what she described as a confrontation with one of the three key persons of interest the week before the end of the year and the week before the end of the year and the week before janine disappeared trish and her friend had been out late at the metro tavern they left them a walking to the taxi rank in front of the courthouse to get a taxi back to trisha's parents house when according to trish a man tried to convince her and her friend to get in his car here's trish explaining this event in our first conversation about it
Speaker 21me and a friend as i'm going home from the tavern the saturday before that janine went missing we were there having a couple drinks after work turned into a like a 2 a.m finish we'd left the tavern directly across the road walked halfway down the block to go on to the right to go to the taxi rank and walk past this red car and as we were sorted to the back of it a guy opened his door and jumped out of there and because when he opened the door the interior light
Speaker 3came on trish said the man offered them a lift his car was small it was red at first he was firm but not unfriendly it was two o'clock in the morning trish was 26 and she worked in a branch of the commonwealth bank in bathurst back then she told me that she was affected by alcohol but not such that she did not have her wits about her her friend had consumed more and she was going to crash at trisha's parents place they didn't hesitate in declining the man's offer of a lift
Speaker 21i was shocked got drinks in the car i said listen no we're getting a getting a walk around to get a taxi it was like he had the script ready because everything i said to him was like met with a response straight away i was like no we'll just keep on we've had enough going on oh there's probably no taxis around there i'll give you girls a lift and as he was sort of like talking he was getting closer and closer well your friend's a bit drunk you can't walk that good i'll you know give her a lift home i said actually come on with me and he sort of went to grab her and she said her hand say oh come on i'll give you a lift home and then she basically turned around and said fuck off you know we're going home and he sort of the longer the conversation went the more sort of agitated and annoyed he was becoming the first thing he said was you know like oh hey girls you know it was all nice and polite and cheerful but as we kept on saying no he kept on getting more agitated and as we were crossing the road she's a taxi rank i sort of glanced to my left where the um roundabout was and i could see this little red car going around the roundabout was going along really slowly and it wasn't until we crossed to the other side and we got to the taxi rank and i glanced and realized it was him in the car and he parked probably 10 to 15 meters behind the cab that we jumped in and i said to this guy this cab driver i said we got some sort of weirdo in the car
Speaker 3taxi driver asked her if the man was a friend of theirs he
Speaker 21just tried to offer his drinks in his car and to take us home and the cab driver's like well well we'll just sit here till he leaves then because he said i don't want him following us and we sat there for i don't know about three minutes and then he must have got the hint that oh hang on these guys aren't gonna leave so then he drove off then the next weekend when janine went missing and then it was like on the news the following day and i was like oh well shit no because i knew janine from like she used to come to the bank where i used to work she used to do the banking so i knew janine from there just like an acquaintance like oh hey how's it going so then when that came on the news it was like she hadn't been heard from for two days i was like well fuck that's um that's bizarre and then it was possibly about three days after that where they actually posted a thing about the red car on the news and that's when it twigged for me and i thought shit
Speaker 3trish said she contacted the police to report the incident within days of learning that janine vaughn was last seen getting into a red car the first time trish recounted these events with me she indicated that she went to the police station to report what had happened in all of our subsequent conversations and in her original messaging with kylie two years ago trish said she had telephoned the police about it trish said she misspoke when she had said she went to the police station she said she had definitely telephoned it in because
Speaker 21the guy was like oh okay what's your name what's your number you know i'll get a detective blah blah blah to give you a call back just give me a sort of a lowdown on what sort of happens like a quick sort of run through took my number and then i heard nothing after that and because no one got back to me i had assumed that they had checked that red car out and obviously cleared him as like having anything to do with it
Speaker 3did you recognize the driver when he was
Speaker 21standing there when he sort of got out of the car it took me sort of 15 20 seconds to go oh hang on i know this guy i knew where he worked so i knew exactly i recognized him like oh that's that guy that works as a chemist
Speaker 9right you think that at the time you were on the street you made the connection
Speaker 21oh absolutely the first couple of questions he asked i wasn't taking too much bloody you know notice like because it was like yeah mate you know we're going home because we kept on trying to sort of keep on walking and move away from him but he sort of kept on trying to follow us and go oh yeah but wait you know and so i think it's second or third question and when i actually we sort of turned around and i said look mate i'm not getting your car i'm just oh i've got drinks in there it was that's when it twigged for me i was like oh hang on i've seen this guy before i know where he works and it was andrew jones trish
Speaker 20can you tell me what you know about andrew jones
Speaker 21okay i know he worked at the chemist that my mother used so i'd seen him there numerous times if i was in there with my mother he would make a point of coming up and talking to my mother and to me i was telling him a bit i would have
Speaker 3Trish said she didn't notice or could not remember whether the car was a two door or a four door but it was red and it was small as for the make and model she couldn't say and what's your level of confidence that uh it really was andrew jones who you knew from the pharmacy
Speaker 21what the glitter car yeah are we going like a hundred percent like i would say 150 absolutely certain that it was him that got out of that car my mother had always used that pharmacy anyway so i had actually seen him in there i don't know probably over a dozen times you're going
Speaker 3to hear a little more from trish later in this episode about her move away from bathurst soon after the incident near the old metro tavern and her realization but not until mid-2018 that andrew jones had been a person of interest for all the years janine has been missing in the meantime i've been talking to a bathurst contact and friend of jones through the period before and after he was a person of interest and i was the
Speaker 22pastor of a church there david coy
Speaker 3gave his life to christ in high school he was once a full-time minister and he led a congregation in bathurst it included a highly committed member andrew jones
Speaker 22i never detected any reason for concern about any dodgy behavior or suspicious behavior i'm not i'm not a bad judge of character i'm not perfect but i'm not a bad judge of character sometimes you smell with people that there's something just not right i never had that sense with andrew
Speaker 3david's group now is called turning point ministry services he says it serves the gospel of jesus christ by serving those who minister the gospel whether individuals couples teams churches or christian organizations earlier in this episode you heard the contents of an investigative note written by detective jason dickinson back in january 2002 the note was based on what jones told police then that he had visited his minister david coy of the bathurst christian evangelical church about 7 30 p.m on the evening janine set out after work with friends jones had said that his visit took place at david coy's house in college road he said it lasted two hours so that would be 9 30 p.m at which time jones had said that he had visited his minister david coy's house jones told police he returned to the scott school and went to bed do you
Speaker 8recall visiting him that evening or do you think he visited you i would have probably visited him at his place and i did visit him and his
Speaker 22little unit in bathurst a few times just in my role as a pastor for the church he's a lonely sort of guy he's a bit of an awkward personality but a genuine guy and do you remember
Speaker 8in
Speaker 202011 when janine vaughn disappeared i don't
Speaker 8remember the night at all andrew jones said that he was with you in the early part of that night and does that accord with your own records or recollections
Speaker 22look i don't have my records of that night with me but uh on a number of occasions i went to visit andrew we hung out that was part of um my pastoral ministry of engagement people in our congregation i did visit him quite a number of times at his place and i think we met up and prayed and read the bible together and that was something i did with a number of people
Speaker 20and was that when he was living at the school uh no that
Speaker 22he was living in a little unit um in keppel street in bathurst
Speaker 3this was the first time i had heard of jones having kept his own unit in the town in police documents generated by the early police strike force investigations jones's residential address was always the scott school in bathurst jones lived in the boarding house there peter richards was the school's headmaster when detective senior constable kate burke took a statement from him in september 2009 these are the then headmaster's words it's not his voice
Speaker 23andrew donald grant jones was a resident in the boarding house at the scott school from the 17th of july 2000 i cannot give the exact date mr jones ceased residence at the school however i can say the last correspondence received from the school by mr jones was on the 17th of january 2002 after the
Speaker 3comment by david coy about jones residing in a unit in keppel street my colleague david murray did searches of new south wales electoral or voter registration records these show that andrew jones did list a unit in keppel street as his address for several years but from july 2002 but if we go back to august 2000 jones's address in bathurst for electoral purposes was listed as a different residential unit this one was in piper street the electoral records do not show when jones actually lived in the residential units or whether there was overlapping with the scott school it isn't clear whether police were aware of these properties or when jones vacated them here's david coy again he was
Speaker 22not a recluse by any means he was keen to make social contact with us with members of the church just like other people so we made an effort to connect with him and he was part of our church for a good part of our time up in bathurst would you have
Speaker 9seen much of him uh
Speaker 22we saw him pretty regularly insofar as his shifts as a pharmacist allowed we would see him regularly at church within the bounds of his personality he was a genuine fellow perhaps a little shy but he was completely involved with the life of our church and engaged in the activities of church and morning teas and bible studies and whatever else was going on in our church life he was part of that he didn't sort of rush away after church or those kind of things he'd engage in conversation yeah i just tried to connect with him out of compassion for him david
Speaker 3coy said that because of some of the congregation's connections a few worshipers were helping out at the scott school
Speaker 8did he ever visit you at your place again i can't recall i'm guessing he probably did
Speaker 22we had people from our church over to our home many times and
Speaker 9do you remember when you were interviewed whether you were able to verify from your diaries the visit that you had from him or
Speaker 20that you made to him on that night in december 2001 no
Speaker 22i don't recall um i didn't record everything that i did in my diaries
Speaker 3you david said he remained friends with andrew jones on facebook i explained that i was hoping to talk to him about the case and about his assertions of being unfairly targeted by police it would take
Speaker 8a terrible toll on a person if they had been unfairly implicated in murder do you recall ever talking to him subsequently about that no i haven't had any direct conversations with him for years and did he express to you at any stage any concern about being named as a person of interest uh i
Speaker 22haven't spoken to him so i only became aware of that he was a person of interest when the detectives came
Speaker 3this led to something else david coy told me he had only talked to detectives about jones on one occasion and he estimated that it was about a decade ago so around the time of the inquest in 2009 david had left bathurst years earlier in 2009 and he had not spoken to the detectives about jones on one occasion and he had not spoken to the detectives about jones in 2003 david recalled he was living with his family in terry hills on the northern fringe of sydney when detectives came to talk about jones let's recap some of this briefly as all these dates can get confusing as you heard earlier in this episode when andrew jones was interviewed at bathurst police station one month after janine's disappearance he told the detectives that he visited david coy on the evening janine was at the ox and the metro tavern with her friends in an investigation he was told that he had not spoken to the detectives at the time january 2002 detective senior constable jason dickinson wrote that jones told police he ate dinner at a bowling club in lithgow then drove back to bathurst on the night in question he then
Speaker 12traveled to his minister's house at college road bathurst arriving about 7 30 p.m and jones
Speaker 3told police he stayed with david coy for about two hours but if david is right no detectives investigating janine's suspected homicide checked this with david for years i haven't
Speaker 22followed it avidly i've never had any reason to suspect andrew but i can understand why possessing a red car and being a single guy that people like that are often treated as suspects you've
Speaker 3heard in this episode from two of the three women kate and trish the third woman who spoke to me has asked for anonymity she gave an account to police some time back about her encounter which she said she had never heard of and she said she had never heard of david coy the incident she said occurred in the winter months of 2002 so around seven months after janine's disappearance she said that it happened when she was walking alone near a cemetery in bathurst she was in her late teens a man in a small red car attempted to persuade her to get in it she told police in bathurst that it was a troubling incident she said the driver was andrew jones andrew jones has declined my repeated requests for an interview
Speaker 24Hi Hedley, it's Andrew Jones calling. I'm just letting you know that I'm releasing a statement to you this afternoon, so hopefully you'll get it soon. OK, mate, have a great day and, yeah, take care.
Speaker 3Bye. I have received an emailed statement from his Sydney lawyer, Karen Espina. Mrs Espina wrote.
Speaker 25Please see below statement from Mr Jones and kindly note that there will be no further comment by either him or I at this stage.
Speaker 11When I was approached by police in 2001 about the disappearance of Janine Vaughan, I cooperated fully. Everything I told police was the truth. I have never picked up Ms Vaughan in any car at any time. The suggestion that I did is false, based on conjecture, and it's simply not true. I had nothing to do with her disappearance or suspected murder. I hope, in particular for the peace of mind of Ms Vaughan's family and friends, that the person or persons who are responsible for her disappearance and her disappearance and suspected murder are caught by police. I have deep sympathy for the position that Ms Vaughan's family and friends are in. However, after over 18 years of baseless smears, gossip and sporadic media harassment, I simply now request privacy.
Speaker 3In the days leading up to the release of this episode, I emailed Jones's criminal defence lawyer, Karen Espina, and explained to her that I had talked to three women from Bathurst, all of whom spoke of Jones, attempting to have them go with him in his small red car. My email to his lawyer presented an opportunity to Jones to reply to these claims and put his side of the story. And I asked why he had declined a police request back in 2002 to search his car and answer further questions back then. I have received an emailed statement.
Speaker 25Andrew has never asked any woman to get in his car, as has been suggested. Andrew categorically said, Andrew categorically denies that these claims are true. If these women were approached by someone who asked them to get in their car, it was not Andrew. In relation to refusing to permit police to perform an examination of his car in early 2002, Andrew was not required to consent to the examination. Police did not have a warrant permitting his car to be searched or examined. One can only assume this is because they did not have enough evidence to obtain such a warrant. Nothing would have been located in Andrew's car, which would have been of any interest to the police investigation, into Miss Vaughan's disappearance or suspected murder in any event, because Andrew had nothing to do with it. Andrew had already cooperated fully and truthfully and had spoken at length with police on three occasions. There was nothing else that he could have told them. It is not true that Andrew refused to answer further questions from police in 2002. Police were advised by his lawyer in March 2002 that any further questions or requests should be directed to her as Andrew's lawyer. To Andrew's knowledge, no such requests were made.
Speaker 3I spoke to Janine's younger brother, Adam, about the contact with Andrew Jones.
Speaker 20Kylie was talking to Andrew Jones. Yep. And then I think that was really helpful for her. What do you understand is happening now with Jones?
Speaker 26I believe he doesn't want anything to do with it. I don't think he's just ghosted it now. But that concerned me because she was so angry at him for so long. And then when we spoke, she's like, and he's just heartbroken that he doesn't understand how he got involved in all this. And she's like, I just want to meet him. And I was like, okay, right. But don't let your guard down because he still could have been the driver of the red car that was harassing other women, if that was all true.
Speaker 20So she spoke at length to Andrew Jones and believed him and liked him. Yeah. And you spoke at length to Dennis Briggs and you believed him. But I don't like him. Does it make you. Do you and Kylie perhaps just a little too gentle with persons of interest in Janine's murder?
Speaker 26Yeah. I don't think that we're too soft. I mean, we're definitely too close and we shouldn't really have to be doing this. But after no trust in the police, we're forced to. So it's just what we have to do. And if we make the wrong choice, we make the wrong choice. But I don't think we're ruling anybody out.
Speaker 3Kylie hoped. To ask Jones further questions. But these hopes were dashed shortly after their promising initial conversation. Kylie sent Andrew Jones a text message. And she told him that she hoped to sit down with him face to face soon.
Speaker 11Kylie, I thank you so much for reaching out to me. It really means a lot. And I hope you have a great day there filled with lots of love.
Speaker 3Andrew Jones has said nothing further to Kylie, despite numerous message and calls from her. In fairness to Jones, I've also asked the television reporter, Steve Hart, for permission to use more of his impromptu interview with Jones in early 2019. Steve was happy to oblige and I'm grateful to him and Network 10. We think it's important to include the denials by Jones of any wrongdoing.
Speaker 18Andrew, can we have that chat now? Uh, not quite. Do you mind if we ask you a little bit about the disappearance of Janine Vaughan 18 years ago? I don't, don't have any comment about it, Steve. Yeah, I'm not in a position to comment. Can you tell us if you actually knew Janine at the time? I didn't know. I didn't know her at all.
Speaker 3Jones was on his feet and trying to move towards his blue car when this exchange occurred. Steve Hart kept asking relevant questions.
Speaker 27I obviously shopped at a men's wear store, which was a great store. And it was, I shopped there, but obviously, you know, she worked there. But I didn't know her.
Speaker 18Was she, was she ever in your. Little red car, the Renault 19? Didn't know her. Do you know why you're still a person of interest for police after all those years, Andrew? I honestly don't know, Steve. Can you tell us anything about the disappearance of Janine?
Speaker 27Nothing at all.
Speaker 18Did you kill Janine Vaughan?
Speaker 27No, I didn't. I just have, I just have no comment about it. Thanks a lot. To be honest, I haven't been involved in any way. And that's the honest truth. Um, so, I just, it's just puzzling why. I keep getting chased.
Speaker 18Did you have a red car at the time? I did, yeah. When did you sell that car? 2006. Several years after, not. A long time after, yeah. Police say they have DNA from your car. Are you concerned that if they test that DNA, that it could be Janine's?
Speaker 27They can test my car as much as they want. They won't find anything because, um, Janine has never been in my car. And I didn't know her.
Speaker 18Do you hope that police do find who did this? Definitely. Yeah. I really hope they do. Are you, do you feel anything for her family?
Speaker 27Well, definitely. We, you know, it needs to be solved.
Speaker 18Did you ever stalk anyone in your car in Bathurst at night?
Speaker 27I never have. I've never stalked anyone. And I, I'm completely innocent.
Speaker 3I mentioned earlier that we would return to Trish Salt. Trish is the woman who described being out with a friend, at the Metro Tavern, and refusing persistent offers from Andrew Jones at about 2am to get in his red car. Many of her relatives and friends still live in and around the town. But Trish lives in Brisbane these days. She's very sure she picked up the telephone and called Bathurst Police Station in December 2001, soon after hearing of a link between Janine's disappearance and a mystery red car.
Speaker 21Because I know damn well, when I spoke to the guy, I said, I am 100% certain his name's Andrew Jones and he works at the chemist in the same shopping centre where Janine used to work. Is that why he became a personal interest? Even though they didn't get back to me. Was there other people that came forward, like, with information on him? It's just really odd to me.
Speaker 9But why didn't they follow up with you?
Speaker 21I don't know. It's the weirdest thing. This whole investigation's just completely odd to me. It's just been one debacle after another.
Speaker 3Is it possible that you made an anonymous report?
Speaker 21No. I gave them my mum and dad's landline number, plus my mobile, and that was it. And no-one contacted me. And then I sort of see, 18 years later, that he's actually a person of interest, which was like, well, OK, how does this work?
Speaker 3Although you're a Bathurst local, you missed all the news about him being a person of interest.
Speaker 21My mum and dad weren't news people either, but, see, we moved. You don't get news reports on missing women from Bathurst. You just don't get it there. And so when you're down in Wollongong, if I'd known sooner, I would have come forward sooner to give my details again and go in and say, listen, this is what happened to me, and no-one got back to me.
Speaker 20Because I think you feel
Speaker 9quite guilty about that.
Speaker 21Fucking oath I do. I absolutely do.
Speaker 9And you feel guilty because you didn't follow it up? Is that right?
Speaker 21Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. To see what Kylie's gone through and her family, I am annoyed with myself that I didn't follow it up to make sure that they actually did take it. But I gave them my version of events over the phone. Someone was bent to ring me back. They didn't. So I just assumed that they maybe checked him out and he had an alibi or whatever, and they discounted it from the investigation.
Speaker 3Trish agreed to meet my friend, the retired judge and former criminal defence lawyer Peter Murphy, at a shopping centre near her home in Brisbane. Trish related the incident again. Trish and the friend she was out with that night knew each other briefly. Unlike Trish. Her friend was not from Bathurst. She had a temporary work role there. They lost contact soon afterwards when they both left the town.
Speaker 8What did you think of Brad Hoseman's being a person of interest?
Speaker 3Ludicrous. Trish knew Brad Hoseman's because at the time he was the Deputy Mayor and the Detective Sergeant of Police in Bathurst. Trish's brother was a cop and his nickname was Dickie Knee. He had left the police force by the time Janine disappeared. But Trish had met Hoseman's through her brother when he was a serving cop.
Speaker 21Oh, look, he's one of those people that if I see him in the street, it'd be, you know, stop and have a five-minute conversation.
Speaker 9Yeah, and had you ever been intimate with him or romantic? Oh, no, no, no.
Speaker 28What did you think? Did he have a reputation in that respect?
Speaker 21Brad Hoseman's is a guy who, for some stupid reason, you either love or hate. And I think more people in Bathurst hated him. For what reason, I don't know. Maybe because he was cocky. Arrogant, those were the two words that normally got thrown around. If that town had one shred of evidence that he had done it, that already would have been given to the police.
Speaker 3For Peter Murphy's benefit, Trish again explained how, a week after her own night out at the Metro Tavern, she followed the increasingly concerning local news of Janine's disappearance. Trish said this then prompted her to ring the police station to say what had happened to her. She left Bathurst about a week later because she and her partner at the time were moving to Sydney for work.
Speaker 21So a couple of times after, you know, we had left and moved down to Sydney, for that sort of, I don't know, four to six weeks, every time I would speak to them, I would say, oh, OK, so give me a call back. Did you get anything back from the police? No, no, it must be. And they went, OK, well, it must have been nothing then.
Speaker 3As the investigations manager for Bathurst Police at the time, Brad Hoseman, was still involved in the murder probe in December 2001. I asked Hoseman's about information such as that described by Trish Salt going missing.
Speaker 9Does stuff like that sometimes fall through the cracks?
Speaker 29Yeah, stuff like that can fall through the cracks. It shouldn't. It should never do it, particularly in these types of investigations. But I've seen it done, unfortunately. There's no more serious investigation that can be conducted by police than this one. They're not like you see on TV. They're all about. Eyes crossing T's and footwork, just the slog of just covering off every bit of information that comes in. And you'd like to think at that point in time when, you know, it's all the investigations energised, that whoever she reported it to was switched on enough to get the information through the strike force.
Speaker 3Trish was still living well away from Bathurst when the 2009 inquest came and then went. Trish said she didn't even know it was on. Development's in Janine Vaughan's case slipped by her as life became busier with children and changes in work and her relationship. The inquest in 2009 was the first time the wider public knew of the police focus on Andrew Jones. But the remarkable local news arising from the inquest in 2009 of the pharmacist being a key person of interest to police went right past Trish. We're going to cover the inquest and its evidence in an upcoming episode, including the fact that no adverse findings were made against Andrew Jones or any other person of interest. Trish said that it was not until mid-2018, so that's nine years after the inquest, that she saw a Facebook page and it linked back to the fact Jones had received a subpoena to appear at the inquest in 2009. Trish said that for the first time she learned that police had been keenly interested in Jones for years. More than that, police had made him their number one person of interest. It's really important to stress again that Jones has always strenuously denied wrongdoing. And if it is true that he did ask women whom he did not know if they wanted a lift in his red car, it is a far cry from murder. It's very possible that Jones is, as his friend David Coy suggested, a socialite. He's a really awkward man of the utmost integrity and that possibly well-intentioned offers by him of a lift to women, if he even made those offers, which he denies, have been misinterpreted in a climate of fear and uncertainty. When Trish related some of her experience of December 2001 to Kylie, Janine's sister contacted the homicide squad. Trish spoke at length to a senior detective soon afterwards over the telephone. Trish said, the detective was thorough and he said he would come to Brisbane to take a formal statement from her. However, this has not yet happened. Trish doesn't know why. She remains happy to cooperate fully with police. Until my relatively recent interviews with women who said Jones had asked them to go with him in his red car, in circumstances that these women found unusual or troubling, it was difficult to see why Jones was being looked at so closely by detectives over a number of years.
Speaker 28It's interesting that Trish says, how come Jones? I know it was Jones who was involved in the incident with me, but that seems to have been lost in the sands of time. How come Jones? What was it about Jones? Were there other women? Now, she poses that question and it's an interesting question. Where did Jones come from? Suddenly, when the inquest was on, we suddenly hear that this pharmacist who spends his time quietly, by himself apparently, and in Bible studies, is a person of interest in Janine's murder. Where does that come from? And that's Trish's point. And I don't get it either. I can't see any catalyst, any piece of information. Well, you can't see
Speaker 3any visible catalyst. That's true. It has to come from intelligence holdings that they've decided for operational reasons should not be disclosed. Yep, absolutely. And that'll possibly be. That'll possibly be the confidential exhibit, the confidential statement that was raised at the inquest but not released.
Speaker 28Yep. But intriguingly, we know that the confidential exhibit cannot contain a sworn statement from Trish because they've never taken one. True. And your point's a good one. I mean, why didn't they? If it's a good, solid piece of evidence, why didn't they? I mean, she might fall under. But what does make sense in this case? Yeah, exactly. Just, you know, yet another mystery.
Speaker 3There's one feature connecting six women in Bathurst. It may be sheer coincidence. Here's Kate from earlier in this episode.
Speaker 8What was your appearance? What colour was your hair then?
Speaker 7Yeah, I was kind of nutsily strawberry. Blonde, long hair, probably either pulled up in a pony or out straight.
Speaker 3Now Trish Salt.
Speaker 21Oh, obviously. I was blonde. I had long, long curly hair.
Speaker 3Now Hayley Stewart, who was stalked after leaving the Metro Tavern.
Speaker 8What did your hair look like then? It was just blonde through my shoulders.
Speaker 3The woman who asked me for anonymity was also blonde. We know that Lynette Borland, who fled from the night driver ten minutes before Janine disappeared, was blonde. And Janine, of course, was blonde too. In the next episode of The Night Driver, the Homicide Squad's former commander, Nick Caldus, blasts an anti-corruption inquiry for pursuing worthless innuendo and harming the murder probe in Bathurst. This was one of the worst because it effectively stole that homicide investigation that was never solved. The Night Driver is a podcast series investigated and written by me, Hedley Thomas, with assistance from Peter Murphy. Music and audio production is by Blacksmith & Co with additional audio support from Chris Bosley. This podcast series is brought to you by the Australian newspaper and digital site. Visit thenightdriver.com.au for additional documentary material as well as credits for the full team behind this multi-part production. Anyone with information about the disappearance of Janine Vaughan can contact me confidentially by email by going to thenightdriver.com.au. You can search for the Night Driver podcast official discussion group on Facebook and join in with the exchange of ideas and information. Harvey Norman has provided unwavering support for the Australian podcast. For my investigative podcast since 2018. For more information on this podcast and on our entire investigative catalogue, go to theaustralian.com.au.
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