Speaker 1This episode is going to cover the churning things that I did in October 2026. Here in Portland, we had a pretty good fall so far. October had some great weather and then on Halloween was the best that we've had in years. It wasn't rainy, but then on November 1st is when daylight savings time came and also we started having a lot more rain and cloudier days. So a lot of people, they only come to Portland in the summer, so they only know the good weather that we get here, but in the winter it can be pretty bad when it just rains a lot and it's dark all the time. Right now sunset is at 5 p.m., but it really starts getting dark around 4 30. So this month I did go to the Points Travel Festival in Chicago that had 300 or 400 people. It was really big. And then I'll also talk about the Prime Day 2.0, which was just a smaller Prime Day that we had in October. And then I'll also be talking about iPhone Duos, which have been a really hot topic. And then also I'll be talking about just some changes that Walmart has been making that I'm still trying to figure out. So I am looking forward to the small meetup that I'm planning on Saturday. I don't know if I'm going to get this episode out before that, but that's going to be happening on November 7th. And I had a few people say that they're going to come back and see if I can do that. So I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that. So that is going to be cool. I don't really have any activities planned other than just kind of hanging out, but that seems to be what everyone usually wants anyway. So no one really has any problem with just hanging out in a hotel and talking for like eight hours straight. And so that's pretty much what I was doing at the Points Travel Festival too. I usually get the most value out of the evenings when everyone has maybe had a few drinks in them and is just chatting away. Last year, I did go to a few of the sessions and some of them were, this year, I didn't really have time to do that. I was busy on Saturday, so I didn't get into Chicago until Saturday night. And then on Sunday, I kind of slept in and just spent more time just hanging out. And it was pretty cool. I did get to meet a few people that I hadn't met before. And a lot of people that have listened to the podcast, I think for someone like me, it's probably not the best environment to be meeting a lot of new people. If I'm sort of just talking to a random person there that I haven't met before, the probability of that person meeting a lot of new people is going to be a lot lower than at a meetup like the Daily Churn or Miles Earn and Burn. But there were a good number of people that were doing buying groups here, whereas most people at the Daily Churn, I think, are doing a lot more traditional MS. But I did meet a few people that were doing MS or buying groups full time at the meetup. And something that I've been thinking about more lately is that there's different levels of churning that you can do. And I think that's really cool. And I think that's a really cool thing that you can be doing. And the more time that you have, the more value that you're going to be able to get. And you don't necessarily need to be doing crazy volumes in order to make a decent amount of money. So if you take buying groups, for example, if you have more time, you can spend a lot of effort into looking into different shopping portals and using gift cards to make your purchases and also just kind of finding better margin deals. And you can do a lot of stores that typically don't have a lot of typically are very hard on only allowing one item per address. So if you like try to order an Xbox from the Microsoft site, I think or PlayStation from the PlayStation site, I think one or both of those are pretty strict. Staples is another one that can be difficult to do at scale. And Dell.com, of course, although there haven't really been any deals from Dell lately, they just haven't had good prices on their stuff. And I would say that, you know, just picking up a few hundred dollars here and there, there's enough opportunity out there, if you have the time to look for it to make a pretty modest income of, I don't know, five to $10,000 a month without really needing that big of a bankroll, because that is always going to be something that's going to hold back a lot of people is are you really willing to risk like millions of dollars at a time, most people are not. And also, when you're doing things at a higher volume, that's almost always going to be less sustainable in the long run. So if you take Amex, for example, they've been shutting down people that have been doing like millions of spend per year on buying groups, whereas I don't really know of anyone that has been shut down for doing like smaller amounts, like maybe 2030 $50,000 a month. And if you're just turning signup bonuses with Amex, I don't really know of anyone that's gotten shut down for just churning signup bonuses. If you just get like a business platinum and a business gold every 90 days, maybe a long time ago, there was people that got shut down for like using a certain Amex banker that like everyone was calling to get this business platinum offer. But I haven't really heard of anything that's been happening recently, like in the last five years, of course, things could always change. But just based on what I've been seeing is that Amex is more concerned with volume. Of course, they don't want to just be handing out millions and millions of membership rewards points for free. But I think a bigger concern is losing millions of dollars when someone is using their cards fraudulently. So that's usually what ends up getting eyes on your account to begin with is the volume and then maybe just someone looking at it doesn't like what they see when you have like 1000s of charges at Best Buy. So the highest EV thing is always going to be just take one thing and scale it. But if you're trying to do things from a more sustainable risk management perspective, then there's nothing wrong with doing it that way. So moving on to talk about iPhone duos. And yeah, it was really interesting, because no one really knew what the demand or the stock levels were going to be like, it did seem like a lot of people wanted one because it's the first new Apple product that they've released in a while a first of a kind device for them. And just looking at the YouTube reviews, it does look really cool. I still have not decided that I want to buy one for myself yet. I kind of want to see how things turn out for it and maybe look to get the iPhone duo too. But yeah, so the pre order day, it was kind of a fail for me, I never really do that well on iPhone pre orders, because they always release the stock to iOS users first. So if like you're using the Apple Store app on your phone, that's going to get priority. And usually when it gets to the main site, most of the stock is gone, at least for pickups. For the 18 Pro Max, the stock did last a bit longer for the shipping orders. But yeah, so the duo, if you don't know, it sold out in seconds, less than one minute, all of the pickup stock was gone. And so on my phone, when I was able to check out one for in a couple weeks, but all of the shipping orders like on the site that I was placing that Bob were for like, late November, and some even December. So I do know some people were successful. Of course, there's people online, there's always people that get it, it has to go to someone. But there's a lot of people that do this every year and buy every single iPhone. And a lot of those people did not get the iPhone duo. But yeah, that's kind of what happened. People did not get the iPhone duo when they wanted one. Of course, there are always ways to get it that aren't from the apple.com. You can get one from like Best Buy or from your carrier. But most of the time, those are going to be locked phones to the carrier. So you can't really resell them. But I'm sure there are people that are listening to podcasts that have already gotten their iPhone duo. And there was a couple of botters that I know that we're able to get some, but not really that many. I know there are a lot of people that saw what happened to the 18 Pro Max with the shipping and how people were able to get like 1000s of phones to their house. More and more people have tried this with the iPhone duo. So when everyone gets their 1000s of phones, that might be tough for the market because it doesn't seem like the market wants the iPhone deal that much. You're not really seeing many want to buy offers for 1000s of pieces on the release day itself. It was like plus 600 per phone, but it quickly died after that. And the following week, it was like plus 100 plus 200. And now I don't even know if people want it anymore. My guess is that the market will eventually settle around plus 150 plus 200, which is about the same as the Pro Max, like a 10% margin is what I would expect. It's just tough when it's already a $2,000 phone. And then also, there's a lot of people online sharing stories about how their phone broke. With those, you know, we never really know, like what percentage of the phones are going to be effective? Like, is it 1%? Is it point 1%? We don't even know how many phones in total Apple has produced so far. It doesn't seem like it's that many, although the stores do seem to be picking up some stock. So as I'm recording this, the current estimated shipping dates for iPhone duos is January 25. So if you do want to get an iPhone duo earlier than that, I think it is possible if you just kind of monitor the stores, especially if you're in a state that has sales tax, because another issue that we've been having in Portland is that Apple has just been canceling all pickup orders that were used using guest checkout for sales tax free states. So Oregon, Delaware and New Hampshire, not Alaska, I did try Alaska, and I was able to get a few pickups through. But I have heard that the Alaska store is really tough on people trying to pick up more than two phones. So no one really does it. But it's been pretty tough for resellers in Oregon ever since October 1 is when they started canceling everything. So I am still trying I'm trying both duos and pro maxes and maybe one day it'll come back. So we'll just have to wait and see there. And I think I do have some insight on to why they're canceling all the reseller orders. And the reason is that in past year or so, Apple has made a big push on their stores to sell the digital products and services. So stuff like AppleCare and Apple Music are big moneymakers for them. And so with all the reseller orders, they're not getting any of that revenue because no reseller is going to buy AppleCare for $300. One thing that was new this year was that when you go in to pick up a device or I think if you just want to buy anything, you need to scan this QR code that's on the Apple employee's phone that connects your Apple account to them. And it is supposed to be optional, but they don't really tell you that it's an option. They tell you as if it's something that you need to do in order to pick up your new device. And so once they do that, and they're sort of linked to your Apple account, then it's a lot easier for them to add those digital products and services. And one time when I was in there specifically, I was really pressured into accepting the free trial of Apple Music that comes when you buy a new iPhone. And I was really pressured to accept the free trial of Apple Music that comes when you buy a new iPhone. And my response was to tell them that I already had it. And of course, they already had a reply ready for that, which was, well, why don't you just take it anyway, because you get a free month, even if you're already subscribed. So it's kind of like calling my bluff because I didn't actually have Apple Music at the time. It wasn't meant to be a lie, because in my head, I did remember that I do have free trials of Apple Music that are available from buying iPads from Best Buy. So what I meant was that I can get access to a free trial if I want. And I was like, okay, I'm going to buy a new iPhone. And I was like, okay, but I don't really have any interest in Apple Music. So they kept pressuring me on it. And we were going for back and forth. And I eventually just said yes to get it. And then I was able to just cancel it right after I accepted it. But it is something that is a little bit shady, because you don't actually accept the free trial on your device. Like once you connect it to the employee's device, through scanning that QR code and clicking continue and accept the terms or whatever, the employee can actually accept the Apple Music free trial. For you, and most customers, they probably don't even know how to cancel it, or they just forget about it immediately after leaving the store. But what I have heard is that the employees are judged pretty harshly on how many of these Apple Music or whatever trials that they sell. So no one cares about the sales volume of MacBooks or iPhones or anything like that. So when it comes down to the employee and the store's performance level, a big part of that is on selling those digital subscriptions. And one of the employees did tell me that the reseller purchases were excluded from their metrics. But even if it's excluded from the metrics, I mean, that is all still taking away their time that they could otherwise be using to try to get more sales. So we'll just have to see what happens. Like I said, it's only happening in Portland, Delaware, New Hampshire, other states are fine for guest checkout, and people are still able to get however many phones that they want from a store. But I have canceled a lot of my proxy and bot subscriptions. I'm trying to wind things down now that Walmart is dead just to give a rough idea of my expenses. So year to date, I've spent around $57,000 on botting software and proxies. So it's been about 10 months. So that is more than $5,000 a month. And then I spent around three to 4000 just on proxies for Apple. So this might be a surprise to some people. But yeah, botting is not free. And whenever there's a limited stock equation like this for Pokemon cards or for iPhones, it's almost always going to resolve to whoever puts the most amount of money into it will get the most out of it. And yeah, I was just talking to one of the Apple Store employees in Portland. And yeah, they're usually pretty chill. And he was just asking me like, Hey, I didn't really see you around last year. So how come you decided to come a lot more in here this year? And I told him Yeah, I did do a little bit last year. But this year, I just really saw the opportunity and I wanted to invest more into it. And he was like, Well, what do you mean by invest more? And he was just surprised to hear that bots cost money. So I'll do a full year end breakdown at the end of the year. But yeah, so far, I've also spent around $23,000 on my warehouse. So those are my two biggest expenses. It is quite a considerable amount of work to kind of wind down the Walmart operations. But I think now is the time it just seems like there is no chance for Pokemon to come back. There have been a few sports card drops, but they've been really low stock. And I don't think I even really broke even on paying for the proxies that I used for those drops. It's something where you make like five to $10 per item and maybe get 100 of them. In the best case, I haven't really seen people getting 1000s of boxes of football cards like they are with Pokemon. So now I'm going to talk a little bit more about what's been going on with Walmart lately for electronics and what happened with Prime Day. So there was a pretty decent sale on Walmart for airpods for at $79. And most buying groups are buying that at 83. So you make $4 per airpod, which is a decent deal. It's not something I'm going to max on my cards out on but it's a good practice because on Black Friday last year, they had airpods at $69. So there you could probably expect to make anywhere from eight to $10 per airpod. So that is a pretty good margin there. So what I've been working on is tried to move all of my Walmart accounts or a good chunk of them over to doing buying group purchases instead of Pokemon. And so the main thing with Walmart is that they don't like it when you change the info on your account. So like the payment method or the address, they don't really like when that's changed. And in this case, I was trying to change both of them because I want to move my payment method. And I was trying to change both of them, because I want to move my payment method. And in this case, I was trying to change both of them, because I want to move my payment method over to something that's not amex, because you can only do a limited volume with amex before you get shut down. And I want to save that for Best Buy. So I've been changing the payment info from amex over to some virtual debit cards that I have, they don't really earn cash back, but I just want to use them for airpods when it's at least like three, four or 5% margin on them. So a lot of my accounts, I needed to get them phone verified, I think you do need. to verify your accounts if you want to change the payment method on them. I'm actually not sure on that I haven't really tried it extensively. But that's just what I was doing. And then I found that on my good accounts, the ones that I've had for over a year, year and a half now, I was able to get pretty good success with changing the payment info to visa and also buying group address and ordering the airpods there. But one thing I noticed was that after the first day of the prime day sale, the cancellations got a lot harder. So one thing that you really have to understand from an early part of doing buying groups is that the Walmart and Best Buy cancellation algorithms, they're not deterministic. So it's not like an exact formula of have an account that's longer than it than this age. Plus, it needs to have a certain order history plus using the same payment method and an address. There is a random element to it. So a lot of the time, there's a lot of times, there's a random element to it. So a lot of the time, there's a random element to it. So a lot of the times, there's a lot of times, there's a lot of times, there's a lot of times, there's a lot of times, there's a random element to it. So a lot of the times, a lot of times you'll make 10 accounts and have them all be doing the exact same thing and maybe only seven or six of them get cancelled and something like that will almost always happen when you're doing this and so walmart and best buy they both have a dial that they can turn to adjust their cancellations and sometimes that is done manually and sometimes it is just done based on how many people are buying that item so a lot of times the cancellation rate will be better earlier in the sale and that was something that i noticed with walmart for this sale was that like the first day i was able to get a lot more airpods through so for this sale i was able to get about three thousand airpods four from walmart and about half of that was by changing my payment method to visa and shipping to buyinggroup.com and then the other half was keeping it on amex and then shipping that to another buying group points points cash back so that's not too bad i mean making four dollars in airpods so that's like twelve thousand dollars but it's really more just for practice and what i've been trying to do is to get more accounts sort of seasoned with the visa card and the buying group address so that in the future there will be less cancellations because another thing that can happen to your walmart account is if you get your order cancelled in such a way that it's like a hard cancel and it locks you out of your account if you get the help protect your account email then you will need to get a code from your phone number in order to reset your password and if you no longer have access to that phone number then that account is lost so you do need to be careful with this and sort of slowly try to get your accounts seasoned over there and one thing that you can do is just set up the account so that you have the address and the payment method saved but don't actually buy anything i think that does help if you just do that and then wait a few months another thing is that usually amex has better cancellation rates than visa mastercard so that is another unfortunate thing because i want to move away from amex so just making things harder there and then another thing that people have reported recently so after prime day and just in the past couple weeks is that walmart has started blocking certain buying group addresses and they've been doing that for a long time and they've been doing that for a long time and they've been doing that for a long time so they will send you an email saying we cannot deliver to that address so that's a new email that people have not really gotten before usually if you get an order cancelled for like what it thinks is fraud based on their algorithm that is something that you will get before you get that message so people's accounts were definitely good but Walmart just did something to block them. I haven't experienced this myself. I haven't really tried ordering to buying groups lately. I don't know what people are buying because I haven't really seen anything on sale, but maybe there was a laptop or something that I missed. But yeah, that's how I've been doing with Walmart. I do have around 25,000 accounts that are available to me. They're all currently using my Amex cards and are pointed to my warehouse address, so I probably will order a decent amount that way. But I would like to get a good chunk of those set up for buying groups and also by using my Visa MasterCard debit cards. So it's going to be quite a bit of work to get that set up, but I think in the next year, by next year Black Friday, I should be in a good position for this. And I'm also kind of bummed because I missed both of the good console drops for this season. So there's the Nintendo Switch 2 Zelda edition, and then also the Xbox 30, the 25th edition, the green one. Both of those went on sale at Walmart and there wasn't really that much notice given to it. And I just ended up missing both of those. So I think both of those are at least a 10% margin. The market for the Nintendo Switch is looking pretty good. In general, the market for consoles has been going up a lot lately because of, I guess people are expecting Grand Theft Auto 6. I think just electronics in general, prices are going up. We saw all the Apple products go up, $100 for the iPads and the MacBooks went up by I think $150, something like that. So moving on to talk about Best Buy and similar to Walmart, they have raised their dial a little bit on their cancellation algorithm. I think this is just a standard thing that companies do for Q4. So you might notice that you're getting a few more orders canceled than usual. In my experience, I am not really getting that many cancellations because the accounts that I use are very well seasoned and I've been using them for a long time. But there were a few good laptop deals and there's going to be a lot more for Black Friday week. And I think we're all hoping that there's going to be some sale on iPads. I don't know what the price is going to be yet, but hopefully it's less than $399. And another thing that I've been working on is using gift cards to place my orders because again, I'm trying to sort of divest from using Amex. It's not really that available anymore because there's not as many gift cards in the market because Kroger has sort of made it harder for these fuelers in Tennessee to be liquidating fuel points. They've sent out a memo where they're asking the gas station employees to not allow any commercial vehicles on their pumps. So some fuelers are working around that, but at a much smaller scale. And Kroger already was on its last legs because of all the shutdowns. That were happening. And they also implemented the limit per SSN or whatever on Best Buy. So I'm pretty late to the party here on using gift cards. It used to be that you needed to have a clean address to buy stuff with gift cards. At least for me, that was the only way that I could figure it out. And I know a lot of people were trying to scale it with Best Buy business accounts. So they would just have one or two accounts and one or two addresses and using a business account, you get a gift card. And you can use up to 10 gift cards per transaction. So 10 times 500 is $5,000 per transaction. So that's why those Best Buy $500 cards are worth a little bit more is because a lot of people are doing it that way with only a few accounts. But about a year ago, it feels like, or maybe less than a year ago, they did change it. So gift cards and credit cards are about the same in terms of getting orders canceled. So it is possible to drop ship using gift cards, but it's and my strategy is just to be using my hundreds of regular Best Buy accounts and ordering two iPads at a time or one laptop at a time so to me I guess the smaller cards are worth the same as larger value cards so I don't mind buying $200 cards or $250 cards and those are going for like 95% right now six months ago maybe you could get them in 93% so right now it's 2% worse but I mean you're still making money and I think that the market will stay around that place because a lot of people are going to switch over to using Amex that were using gift cards before so if you're getting 4x on a business gold versus 5% off using a gift card a lot of people are going to switch over to using business goals and especially those smaller scale people that are not doing millions in order to get shut down with Amex so yeah I mean 5% is still very profitable for me and I mean it almost seems too easy the way that I'm doing it so maybe there's something that I'm missing there but yeah I have really strong accounts that don't get any orders cancelled so making 5% without having to worry about any sort of longevity risk is great for me I am still placing all the orders manually so I can do around 40-ish orders per hour maybe more or less depending on how focused I am but that's a pretty good benchmark and so if I'm trying to buy 100 laptops then that takes two and a half hours so maybe for higher value laptops it's worth it but if it's a $200 laptop I'm probably not going to be doing that unless I don't have anything else to do that day I do also have a bot that kind of works to place the orders but I just don't trust it well enough to not mess up especially when one mistake or bug could lead to like a thousand dollar loss and I think right now the scalability is not really there to make it worth investing time into making the bot more robust it's always that question when you're thinking of doing something manually or by investing in some 30-party app or by coding something yourself is you know you have to look at the ROI on how much time you're going to spend automating something and with the rise of AI the ROI math equation is getting a lot more in favor of automation so I haven't talked that much about AI yet on this podcast I don't really use it a ton but I am starting to use it more and more I mainly use Claude code to write some programs in Python or JavaScript and not really doing anything too fancy and then whenever there's something that Claude doesn't want to do there's other models like Venice or Kilo some kind of open source I guess crappier AI models that will still get the job done but just not as well but they'll do anything that you ask it to so sometimes for me when I send a spreadsheet to Claude that has like a thousand virtual credit cards on it Claude doesn't want to touch it because it doesn't like that I have so many credit cards and I have to convince it that all the cards are my own which they obviously are and yeah for the longest time I've always sort of been against trying to code something up completely from scratch and instead to be using some kind of third-party software that has already solved the problem for you but times have changed and one really popular software that almost everyone was using for botting it's called aycd all you can dream it's basically like a way to store all of your credit cards and accounts and address information stuff like that I just really got familiar with it and really liked using it and it just worked really well for me but the problem with it is that I'm only really using about 10 percent of the features that they have to offer they just have so many different tools and whenever one of those features within that 10 percent stops working or if I want to ask to tweak some little thing with it to make it better then I have to go and make a ticket and wait for someone to fix it which could take a day it could take a week and then if it's not a bug if it's a feature request then I have to go submit some other form somewhere and aycd I mean they're great they're really good at fixing things and implementing stuff but even then a lot of times I need something fixed like now so I can go buy this laptop that's only on sale for another six hours and that's where it really is beneficial to be using ai because then you can just go fix your own stuff and everything that you make is tailored to your own use cases and this extends beyond churning and buying groups I think a lot of subscription softwares are going to be obsolete because people can just make the same thing using ai in not that much time and have it actually work better for the things that you're trying to do so one example would be like the mailing list for my podcast I've always been using mailchimp because it was just something that was easy to set up and I'm paying like 20 a month for it or maybe even 25 because I have more contacts now but I'm only using maybe five percent of all the features that they have to offer all I need to do is send out an email to all my contacts once a month or maybe twice a month just to tell people that I released a new episode or announcing a meetup and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and then I can send out an email to all of my contacts once a month and I think small businesses especially are going to be benefiting from AI the most, especially for marketing. I think it's probably one of the better use cases whereas for large companies unless you are an ai company or one of the top tier tech companies a lot of the bigger corporations will actually make it harder for you to use ai and they don't want to be using it because they don't want to be accidentally feeding company data into these models so i work in an industry where company ip is very privileged so i don't use ai in my job hardly at all like the most that i would ever do would be like co-pilot for my email there would be a lot of good use cases for it but it's just that for security reasons the company won't allow it so yeah of course ai is very popular on the internet right now and a lot of people are making ai agencies where you teach small businesses how to use ai and then people are selling courses on how to create your own ai agency so i don't use ai in my job hardly at all like the most that i would ever do would be like co-pilot for my email there would be a lot of good use cases for it but it's just that for security reasons the company won't allow it so yeah of course ai is very popular on the internet right now and a lot of people are making ai agencies where you teach small businesses how to use ai and then people are selling courses on how to create your own ai agency so it's just like a lot of the other internet trends that we've had over the past few years i remember back in like the 2010s drop shipping was a big thing like buying cheap stuff from alibaba and then selling it through facebook ads or whatever and then in 2021 there's this big boom for software as a service companies and building those up and selling them and then of course there's crypto nfts and meme coins stuff like that so ai for small businesses is just another one of those things where it's only really going to last a few years before all of the small businesses have already implemented everything that they need but for now it's a way for some people to try and get rich quick so yeah i think that mostly covers everything i want to talk about there was another big thing that happened this month and that was x money so x.com created a banking platform with the three percent cashback debit card and i don't know five or six percent apy and they had this other cool feature where you could deposit money with a credit card so i don't know whose great idea that was but it sure did get a lot of money deposited it's mostly dead now so i think it's okay to talk about it i mean it was a very widely published thing that you could do but anytime you have a large institution like that with unlimited credit card or debit card funding that's going to be a big money maker for some people and we get about one of those every year if you think back to paypal key paypal bill pay uh chase had a cool thing where you could get uncapped 10x on lyft amex had a thing where you could get unlimited 4x on dining coinbase had that four percent cashback debit card that even i was able to make pretty good money off of when i didn't really know that much about churning at all oh yeah and then there was pepper and every time one of these things comes and goes you just wonder how it was even possible for something like that to exist for that long and allow so many people to make money off of it but there are always more of them it seems like there is at least one every year so you just have to keep an eye out for it and be ready and also a lot of the time i feel like we just remember when the play ended and we don't really remember how long it lasted for and when i heard about x money and i heard that it was a very big topic at the daily churn meetup with a hundred and seventy five people already knowing about it and spreading information within each other i thought that there was no way that it would last more than a few days after that but instead it lasted at least a few weeks so a lot of unicorns they do last longer than you might think and you especially have to look out for these institutions that have deep pockets right so like x and any major bank like chaser amex paypal is obviously a huge company so that's it for this episode i'm going to wrap things up here if you need to contact me you can always email me at churninglife gmail.com or message me in the slack thanks for listening and until next time
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