Episode 51: Stanford University School of Medicine

[Music] From Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine in Cleveland, Ohio, this is the All Access Med School Admissions Podcast. Again everybody, I'm your host Christian Esman and I'm the Senior Director of Admissions in Financial Aid here at Case. It's great to be with you again. Today we're talking all things about Stanford and I've received a lot of emails from listeners requesting to get Stanford on the podcast. I've even received some requests from some pre-medical advisors in the same vein so I was really excited when they accepted my invitation to come on and have this conversation with me. Hey, before we talk about Stanford I want to let you know that I'm working with a couple of other medical schools, Boston University School of Medicine and the Medical School at UT Southwestern in Dallas. So you'll hopefully be hearing from them in the coming weeks. Alright, let me tell you about the Medical School we'll be discussing today. Stanford University School of Medicine is located in Palo Alto, California. Known as the birthplace of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto is also home to a number of tech companies that you've heard of. The Hula Packard Tesla Skype among many, many others. This is a really beautiful city and it's located in the Bay area between San Jose and San Francisco. The Medical School traces its roots back to 1858 when it was called the Medical Department of the University of the Pacific. But it was in 1908 when it was recognized as Stanford University School of Medicine. They are a highly regarded institution and consistently ranks among the very top U.S. medical schools and faculty members routinely secure the highest amount of research funding per investigator in the country. Their mission is to be a premier research intensive medical school that improves health through leadership, diversity, and a collaborative approach to discovery and innovation in patient care, education, and research. Stanford Medicine seeks to admit a diverse body of students who are interested in the intellectual substance of medicine and are committed to advancing scholarship in any field of medicine. Diversity is one of Stanford Medicine's core values and their goal is to draw from people with a variety of backgrounds and life experiences to reach a new level of innovation in teaching, research, and caring for patients. They ultimately seek to prepare physicians who will provide outstanding patient-centered care and to inspire future leaders who will improve world health through scholarship and innovation. Stanford Med is a private institution and makes up applications from all U.S. citizens, international applicants including Canadians, and those with a DACA status. For the entering class of 2021, the School of Medicine received about 11,000 applications and interviewed 500 applicants for a class size of 90, which included 80 MD students and 10 MD PhD students. 47% of the incoming class for women and 32% self-identified from groups underrepresented medicine. Additionally, 55% of their new class have peer-reviewed publications, 35% self-identified as disadvantaged, 23% first our first generation college students, 14% self-identified as LGBTQ+ and they have 11 NCAA student athletes and two military veterans. Let me tell you about my two guests today. Dr. Iris Gibbs earned her medical degree in completed residency training at Stanford Medicine. Dr. Gibbs is a professor of radiation oncology, professor of neurosurgery, and is the associate dean of MD admissions at Stanford Medicine. She has served in several educational leadership roles within the institution and nationally and is a champion of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. Dr. Gibbs clinical and research areas of expertise are pediatric and adult brain tumors and robotic radiocirgery. Dr. Gibbs was the founding co-director of the Stanford Cyberknife Radio Surgery Program for over a decade, where she helped to build a world-renowned clinical program in innovative radiation treatments for patients. She has also given numerous invited lectures worldwide and published over 150 peer-reviewed research articles and book chapters. The other person you'll be hearing from is that of Sri Vemperello. Sri is the executive director in the Office of MD admissions at Stanford Medicine. He has been in the School of Medicine for over five years and at Stanford University for more than 12 years. As executive director, he has overarching responsibility for leading and managing all operational aspects of the MD admissions process from initial outreach to matriculation and works alongside the associate dean in strategic planning, program development, and funding outreach. Sri is extensive experience in strategy and analytics, student administration, financial management, HR, and IT. He thrives on building strong relationships and over the years has had the opportunity to work with stakeholders across Stanford University, Stanford Medicine, higher education peers, and other partners. Outside of work, Sri enjoys travel, hiking, and watching sports as well as spending time with family and friends. So there you go. Let's get right after it here with my two guests and join. Hello, Dr. Gibbs. Hello, Sri. Thank you for joining me. I'm thrilled to have you. It's great to have my friends from the West Coast with me. So thanks for doing this. Thank you so much, Christian. It's great to be here. Thank you, Christian. It's so nice to be here. Yeah, before we dive into everything, Stanford Med, I wanted to ask you a couple of you some personal questions. First of all, Sri, in your email signature, I love that new thing. It's called hear my name. And if people that are listening, have a name, it might be people might find difficult to pronounce, put it in your signature because it's so cool. Wonderful. Yes. Actually, we got that from, I think Stanford University undergraduate admissions already integrated that into the application process. And I think Dr. Gibbs saw that somewhere. And we actually wanted to put that into our application into our supplemental application. I'm kidding. And we, I was doing some research about that. And then I said, why not start putting it in my own signature for us. So I went and created a little signature and I was playing with it. And then I put it into my signature. We were not able to fully integrate that into our supplemental application this year. But for the people that we do invite for interviews, we made it an option for them to upload a MP3 audio file so that our interviewers or who our else can actually hear their name. So that's what came out of it. But next year, we hope to integrate this whole name coaching or something like that into the application itself. Well, that's great. Dr. Gibbs, I, the, our listeners just heard your, your biography and you are a busy, incredibly accomplished physician. But how did you make this, how did you jump into the admissions piece? And, and what do you do for fun when you have time? All right, that one's always a question. But I would say that I did not necessarily jump into the admissions piece. It's something that's always been part of me. I actually completed my medical education at Stanford. And I was involved in, in these sorts of roles as a, as a student. And then when I joined as a faculty member, I'd often be asked to do, to conduct interviews and to do file reviews. And ultimately, you know, I was drafted for the committee on admissions. And I found that really rewarding work in selecting the next generation of, of students. And then when the outgoing director was leaving, he had asked me to consider this. And firstly, I'm going to say I turned him down because my clinical program was going so well, but a few years later, the time was really right. And I feel so, you know, rewarded that I have been able to help us move along a particular vision for what the next generation of physicians will look like. And so it's been such a wonderful experience for these last several years. Yeah. Okay. What do you do for fun? Oh, my gosh, I, I have to dwell on that. No, I do, I, I actually spend time with, with family during the pandemic. I couldn't, I have connected more with my East Coast family. And after like the zoom thing on the weekends, we have a set time. I read, I'm part of a book club. Actually, I always say that I'm the only Northern California person in my book club that's centered in and Los Angeles. It's literary sisters, West. I, I like to write, and I sing a little bit. Yeah. I get home or in front of people. Well, I used to see in front of people. Now I'm just singing kind of that whole. She hasn't sang. She didn't do anything in our group meeting yet. Okay. Well, when you guys get back in the office, now you have those three. Yeah. When we get back in the office, we're actually moving to a new office. Maybe she will do the inauguration with the song. Yeah. Every, your biography said that you really like you enjoy watching sports. And is there anything in particular? I mean, at the time I'm recording this right now, the Olympics are in full swing. I, I'm like sports watching junkie. I mean, I wish I played some of them, but unfortunately at this time, I don't play any of the sports, but I will watch any sport on TV pretty much, including Cornhole League. Yeah. I've seen that too. Like an ESPN. Yeah. So, so you see, Dr. Gibbs, you came to Palo Alto and haven't left since you started medical school. Sri, you've been there a while. What do you like about the Palo Alto? It's gorgeous there, by the way, but what do you, Dr. Gibbs, what do you like most about it? What I like most about Palo Alto is that there's this sort of, you know, vibrant community. And even though folks don't necessarily may not appreciate this by what they may hear about Palo Alto, it has this wonderful, you know, space where individuals from all sorts of walks of life are kind of coexisting in this great place and wonderful restaurants. And really great people. So that's what I like. Yeah. I mean, I can echo that. I love living here. I live in downtown Palo Alto, which is just a couple of miles from the main quad of campus. And I go walking there every weekend. It's so beautiful. And talking about restaurants, I love eating outside. So within a two mile radius, I think you have at least, at least I would say 50 to 60 different scenes that you can go and taste and partake. And that adds to the diversity of this place, you know, from Caribbean, from Jamaican food to Indian food. And now there are a couple of, you know, fusion Indian places that open one with a Michelin star chef. You know, there are so many beautiful places to go and experience the not only the cuisine and the food, but also the culture that goes with it. Just the diversity of this place is just amazing. Not just Palo Alto, but the wider Bay Area, obviously. You know, people just don't realize, you know, Palo Alto could be isolated sometimes. Birthplace of Silicon Valley, HP, garage is right here. A couple of blocks from where I live. But Bay Area in general, including Palo Alto, just the diversity is just amazing here. I love living here. I've been here for 25 years now and it's my home. Yeah. Our previous dean of admissions moved from Cleveland out to Palo Alto. She's a pediatrician out there. Yeah. So we have a connection out there too. Wonderful. I want to, Dr. Gibbs really quickly, I just, before we get into the curriculum things, I wanted to ask you, as an alumna of Stanford, and now you have this position as in the admissions dean, what's that feel like for you that you're, you mentioned like that shaping the future of medicine, but what's that feel like for you? That's going to be a special thing. Yeah. Absolutely is a special thing, especially from someone like myself who started off as, you know, first gen in my family to go to college and then to become a physician. And really, I think the culmination of experiences, oftentimes from the vantage point of marginalization really helps me to be able to think about how we can, you know, just widen the umbrella of physicians, future physicians to be able to imagine a world where we can reflect the sort of communities that we're serving. And I do think it's a humble position. And so I take this very, very seriously, but very, very humbled and honored to be in this world. Yeah. That's, that's amazing. That is just amazing. How cool. All right. So, I think we're going to talk about curricular highlights and we'll get into the admissions piece. But I like to start with what are some of the programs that you have at your institution that you like? Prospective students to know about that are really cool, unique, that get you excited. And the ones that I found, we can talk about the scholars' concentrations. There's this really cool night, Hennessy scholars. Let's start with the scholars' concentrations. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. So, yeah, the scholarly concentrations is a way in which our students can kind of develop an area of in-depth scholarship. And so this one, I think, helps our students to really stand out when it becomes time to go to that next step of training for sort of graduate medical education. But one of the things I like to always emphasize about the Stanford curriculum and actually the key tenant that has actually drawn students near and far for many, many years, many decades is flexibility. I know that for me, when I came to Stanford, it was infinitely flexible. It's probably a little less flexible than it had been there because everything seemed to be quite optional. But my things are not optional now. But the flexibility of the curriculum in being able to, I think what we feel our roles are as educators and administrators here is to provide a platform for our students to be able to pursue their individual paths. Because we say that we're looking for people who want to be leaders. And so we provide that through the scholarly concentrations as a way in which particular areas of interest ranging from clinical research to bioengineering to community health and global health and other areas, cancer biology and such so that our students can, and even humanities, right? We have a bioethics and humanities scholarly concentration population health. Okay, I'll keep on going. The list is long. The list is long and our students can pursue those interests and they don't have to be cookie cutter. In fact, that's one of the things that we say in admissions. We are absolutely not looking for cookie cutter. And then our responsibility is to provide those resources for people to be able to pursue those interests and thrive. And so our discovery curriculum, I love that the word of Stanford is about discovery. We have this entire walk on our campus that really highlights some of the discoveries that have been made in science and math and medicine. You know, not only at Stanford, but in science and medicine worldwide. But a lot of them are here at Stanford. And so you're immersed in this environment where anything is possible. We're here in the Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley wouldn't have been much of Silicon Valley without Stanford in general. And it's this hub of innovation. Our patients, our students are definite contributors to that. And I think a lot of our programs, including our discovery curriculum is really part of that. I wrote down on my notes flexibility. When you mentioned, I was like, I wrote that down because when you read about, and I'll put links to the discovery curriculum in the description of our episode here. But when you read it, you really can see that there's a lot of flexibility for your students to do that exploration that you talked about. Yeah, I think the way that it's currently put together, like I said, it was more infinite flexibility where each individual student deciding their path. During the time that I studied here, 80% of the students did at least five years. And it wasn't because that we were slow. No, no. We did fly five years because the system was designed in a way where we didn't have financial deficits for pursuing that interest in depth. And some students did their pre-clerkship courses in the space of two years. Others spread it out a little bit longer. And now we've actually codified a way, what we call our split curriculum that is a more formalized way to be able to achieve this kind of flexibility. There are a little few guard rails on the split curriculum. We do want for our students to pursue the split in the way it is currently set up, particularly for scholarship if they, you know, that's going to be our main purpose. But if they need to sort of, you know, spread this curriculum out because of other extracurricular interests that they're involved in in depth or to pursue another degree, those may be additional reasons why they can split the two years of pre-clerkship coursework over three years essentially. And it's usually that second. year that split between the second and third year. And in that additional time that they gain in each of those years can be spent in in-depth scholarship. Others can take even after doing that. An in-depth year for an entire year of research under the Berg Scholarship program, which is part of an umbrella. We call our physician scientist training program. And so that's a possibility. Of course, we have our medical scientist training program, a very robust one. So we have several avenues to develop physician scientists here at Stanford as well as individual tour interested in community health, global health, population health, and other forms of clinical research. So there's a myriad opportunities here. Just like that, you know, for fun, we always tell students that they always identify by the entering class, you know, rather than when they graduate. Dr. Gibbs, when it comes to the discovery curriculum, what does that kind of look like on a day-to-day basis? Are the students in class all day? Is it for the morning and then they have the afternoon from flex time? What's that look like? Yeah, so for the first year, we actually do encourage our students to be fully engaged in the medical curriculum so that first year, it is a bit more intent and students are generally in class for the better part of the day. Though there is a tradition at Stanford where Wednesdays, the students are not doing classwork. Our students can take courses all across the campus. So sometimes on Wednesdays and other days, they will take this opportunity to take coursework and seminars at other parts of the university. But in that second year, if one decides to split the curriculum, that's what they call it, they would essentially be in class about half of the time as other students and the additional time is spent doing those other in-depth activities. And then they come back on that third year and do the other half of what what it would have done. So the idea is that one can choose if you decide to do the entire course work and you would have then if you decide to do five years, you might have that third year where you're doing all of your in-depth studies, research, exploration, global health projects, going into industry and doing some, you know, dabbling there, we start students tend to, you know, tend to also do. There's a lot of opportunity around there to do that kind of stuff. Yeah, boy. So I'll, again, I'll put a description or I'll put a link in the description section for that split curriculum because when you read through it, it really is interesting and very innovative on how you can kind of, slow things down, just extend how you want your education to kind of unfold for you. In fact, I'd like to speak to that. Yeah, yeah. I love it. Just as a intentional direction, I think that Stanford medicine has had. You've probably heard and seen and seen other institutions who are shifting to really shortening the pre-clirkship. We specifically call it pre-clirkship because our students do have the opportunity to have clinical experiences even in the early time of their their time here. But the pre-clirkship experience oftentimes there's a shortening even as, you know, little as, you know, 12, 18 months. Stanford deliberately has decided that it really wants our students to have depth in that those foundational areas. And oftentimes this is what actually spurs some of the innovation and an inquiry that our students might have to really spark oftentimes research projects and depth studies. And so that one has not been compromised. Yeah. That one's a little distinctly different from individuals who kind of want to get into medical school and get out, right? And the idea of, you know, really extending it through that time period is something that we've decided not to not to compromise. Yeah. Speaking of changes, we're getting a lot of questions. I think all of all of all my schools are because step one has gone past fail. Are you is Stanford looking to make any changes with regard to study time and that third year or whenever students or some schools do it in their second year kind of thing? Have you talked about that at all? Those discussions are happening. I think all of all schools are trying to figure out, you know, what that piece looks like. And for school like Stanford, where like we talked about how flexibility has been the hallmark of who of who we are, we do want our curriculum not to be just teaching to a test. And we absolutely want and we don't want the medicine part of it to be the extracurricular part. Right? And so we want to make sure that we engage our students in the kinds of in-depth learning that they'll need for the future and not just for the test. So how do you keep them engaged and attending class to some degree? You know, during this, if the exam that high stakes exam ends up being the sort of past fail. So I think the onus is going to be completely on us to make the sort of coursework and education material more exciting and more got to be there, you know. And so that one is a challenge, I think. What would you how would you describe what's the culture like for the students? Are you a student there, Dr. Gibbs and Sri, you're working with students and probably see them? How do you describe the culture of the vibe of the of the building when there are students in there? What's it? What's it like? Sri, how do you take this one? Yeah, that's why I can definitely, so we have our, the what we call LKSC building, the leakishing center for knowledge. That's the main building where you know the teen's offices, all the classrooms are, the immersive learning centers and the basement. And the coolest thing in that building is that it's a fourth floor where only the MD students have access. That's the in place to this gym in there, their study rooms. And I always see the students going up and down in the building. I run into them in the elevator many times. Yeah, I think the culture, I believe, is, you know, extremely exciting, if I can call a culture exciting, just to be on campus with the rest of Stanford University, the two hospitals just being there. So you're really in a place where you are constantly mingling with not only your MD colleagues, student colleagues, but a variety of other people. There's also a conference center in the same building. So there are people always coming in and out like for various conferences from all over the world. Of course, you depend on me that has stopped a little bit. Right. Right. But I think all of these exposes our MD students to so many different varieties of, you know, experiences. And that builds a unique culture within Stanford, where it's all about, you know, getting to know people, building those friendships. And of course, you will have your own, you know, intimate friendships and things like that as you go along the classes. But I would think it's, it's just a broad culture, if I may put it that way, as far as I can see it. Yeah. I think Dr. Gibbs talked to you from a student perspective. No, no, I was just going to add that certainly because I've been through this, something I found not to have changed over the years, is that sense of a collaborative culture where everyone, at once, you might think that, okay, because everyone's on their own path, it's more siloed, but actually it reduces that sense of individual competition with each other. And so everyone is sort of, you know, rooting each other along in whatever journey that they're pursuing. So I, I feel like there's this inclusive, you know, tight knit student body where students are more supportive of each other rather than this sort of more competitive kind of nature that you can see at some institutions. I will note that I, that I noticed that it's passfail, the exams or assessments or passfail. And I found that that kind of helps set the stage for that collaborative collegial environment. Within the class of students. Speaking of students, what is something that all students kind of get involved in? Is there some organization or a group that everybody is kind of gets active with? Well, there are a number of activities, I think, I mean, there's so many that, you know, it's not going to be like all 90 of our class, of our student class will be involved in, but our students, and you've probably noticed this at, you know, at cases, well, that I I think students in this generation are really interested in giving back and promoting a sense of equity and justice and such. So our students are involved oftentimes in early clinical exposures. So they are what we call carnal free clinics and they're engaged in that. Their programs like Walk With Me which is this interesting program where our students have a clinical exposure to very early on their time to really follow a patient's journey through their entire experience from several different perspectives. And then there's, you know, there's student governing bodies. There are sort of social and interest groups that form. We have probably, you know, at least a hundred different groups and subgroups. One of the key things I think our students have participated in quite widely and it's had great longevity here. Something we call flu crew. And the flu crew has also been very active and engaged during this time of the pandemic because each year when everyone has to get the flu vaccine, this can essentially helps to immunize. And they've come to work when the vaccines came out. Even before vaccines, our students were quite active in doing whatever they could do in terms of offering, you know, PPD drives early in the pandemic and things of that nature. So lots of different activities, activity, you know, we have a student national medical association chapters, we have LMSA. We have a group that's called our Stanford University Minority Student Alliance, which is getting because of it's bigger and bigger and I love to see engages so many different kinds of students. You know, we have a PAMS, we have LGBTQ meds. I mean, like just so many groups. - Yeah, in fact during our second look event, there are usually 50 to 60 student group tables that, you know, that interview, interviewed candidates. The second look in why these, you know, go and engage with and they love that part of it. And even when we did second look virtually this last April, we still made that happen by creating a separate meeting for that and making like, I think like 50, the maximum was 50 breakout rooms or something. - We used them all. - We used them all and the feedback that we got was, you know, that was one of the most interesting things for, so if somebody has an interest in something, there is a way to get engaged at Stanford. So I think not only within the school of medicine, you know, the two hospitals are right there. We have community hospitals not too far away. And Stanford has six other schools that, you know, and many other events that are always going on, you know, that they can engage in, as well as in the broader community as well. So if somebody wants to do something that is an opportunity for that. - That kind of leads me to my other thing I wanted to ask you about was the, when I was doing my homework, I found this module or thread in the curriculum called Leadership in Health Disparities. It sounds like all students do. Can you talk a little bit about that, Dr. Gibbs? - Yeah, you know, the Leadership in Health Disparities program actually grew out of a program that I actually had the honor of participating in as a underrepresented student. Back in those days, it was the way that program was designed was to be able to give an early exposure in the summer just before the matriculation year to acclimate certain students to the area. We actually took a course as well. So it would lighten the load a little bit of that first quarter. And this particular program has had this longevity now. Okay, I'm going to say the number more than 30 years and that was me 30 years ago and that program had started then. But as time went by, it focused a lot more on giving students opportunities to develop a curriculum around building their leadership potential and being able to get involved in early research. Actually, we were involved in early research exposures as well. And so what you have is this program where you get an instant family, instant group of classmates that's really going to connect to you. And you have this opportunity to develop in areas that are definitely required in terms of physician leadership. So while this one is open to all students, typically it's a group of about 12 to 15 students in the summer and I think in this virtual space, it was widened this last year to include a large portion of our entering class. But then after this summer, a curriculum continues for that group of students throughout their pre-corkship time. And I know that our students have found this so valuable in terms of their personal and professional development. Yeah, it really is very unique to have that threaded in there. I thought that was really cool. So I wanted to make, I really wanted to ask you about that. Before we kind of make the switch and get into the admissions part, I wanted to ask you, since both of you work so closely with students, you have students on your admissions committee and it seemed to be very involved in your process. And so it seems to be a lot of interaction that you have with them. What are some of those qualities or characteristics that you maybe you've picked up on that you feel makes for a successful student at Stanford? Good question. I've had, I'm sure Dr. Gibbs has more thoughts about this, but in my interactions with the students, I think in addition to all those qualities of academic excellence that students that come to Stanford bring, I think what I feel like it's that, I keep going back to this term, the curiosity to learn and learn and learn. And as well as the ability to engage with a diverse group of people, I think those are the two that come to my mind, curiosity and engagement that I think will lead to much success. Yeah, I think for me, one of the things that is so interesting in your unique about our students, it's a kind of keep us on our toes, right? Those sort of individuals who are so passionate about what kind of impact they want to have in their world, that they begin to shape how others around them are seeing their vantage point. And so those are the kinds of qualities that I think make for such wonderful, engaging interaction. Sometimes they hold your feet to the fire, right? And you're finding yourself advocating in ways that may be a little bit different than you thought. But oftentimes it's for such wonderful reasons and giving, and you had alluded to the fact that our students are highly engaged. Our students through our Stanford Medical Student Association and in other organizations as well. Every single, I would say, govern its body in general, has student involvement. And so students are core in terms of decision making and helping to develop policy on our admissions committee and the selection process. So we really value that as not only are the contributions to developing leadership, but their input is so very, very key. So we have student leaders, and I would say that that's a core feature that we look for as well. >> It's a lot to like, it's a lot to talk about. >> Well, so talk to us. >> Yeah, before we make the switch to the admissions piece, is there anything we didn't touch on as far as curricular highlights that you wanted to make sure coming into this conversation that you're like, hey, I want to make sure if he doesn't ask about that, that we can put on this. >> Yes, one thing that has been unique in the last several years, and this is a university award. It's called the Knight Hennessey Scholars Program. >> Oh, yes, yeah. >> It's a really amazing program that brings in multi-disciplinary. So probably from virtually every school, graduate folks are entering graduate studies. They sort of bring together this sort of think tank of professionals who are interested in impacting their world. They are focused oftentimes on the more global aspects of issues. And so a certain portion of the folks that they look for are going to be those who come from international backgrounds. But in any case, because our students that apply to medical school are usually like. >> Always, top notch. >> Yeah. >> We compete quite well. Our students compete quite well for that scholarship. And it's this amazing. engagement and personal professional development that our students have been allowed. And it is a scholarship and so yes, it pays for everything, but I think what our students give to that is going to be way even more. But yeah, it's a wonderful university-wide scholarship that anyone who's looking into our school should really look into as well. Oh, sorry, go history. No, no, I was just going to add that as Dr. Gibb's alluded, his graduate programs from all across the seven schools at Stanford, and they have this really cool building called the Denning House that overlooks like Lagoonida on campus, where they all congregate and exchange ideas. So this cohort of night-hennies is scholars from all these various graduate programs on all years that constantly meeting and they have social gatherings, talks from really interesting people. So it's like a unique thing that I have not heard of, something like that. Any way. Yeah, for those that aren't familiar, it's called the night-hennies scene. It's Phil Knight who started Nike and I think John Hennies used a former president of Stanford and many other things. But there's a really cool YouTube video that I'll link to. I watched today. It's about five minutes long. It explains the program and you watch it's like, this is it's an amazing leadership program. So I'll link to it. You should watch it because it's really unique, very cool program through Stanford. So I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm glad I asked if there's anything to talk about. So there's a lot to like and now we'll get to the part where like, okay, how do I get in? And so let's make switch gears here and talk a little bit about the admissions piece because I much like your curriculum and other things you talked about. There's some unique things about your application process that I want to touch on a little bit. Because that's the question we get all the time is what are you looking for? Like and so I guess I wanted to first start it asked you by talking about the prerequisites. You're one of those schools that does not necessarily have specific prerequisite courses. You just recommend everything and advise students to look at their curriculum and help them decide what courses they need to take. So how do you advise students to show competency in the various sciences to be to show that they're ready to take on a stand for curriculum? Yeah, so we have deviated from having those specific course requirements because we do believe that you know that the that medicine needs a full range of talent. Now as you alluded to, there's a certain amount of competency that one needs in the basic studies that will get you through the academic curriculum and you know and I think with foundational work that can be explored for most students. So certainly I wouldn't advise anyone to try to apply to to our medical school without taking chemistry, right? Yeah, absolutely. You want to take you want to take some of the those courses to prepare yourself well for for the examination because we want to make sure that people can handle the academic rigor of the institution but but beyond that after that that decision is sort of made what we are looking for are the tenets of our mission which is around leadership around scholarship around being able to contribute uniquely to our diverse learning environment. So for that reason as well, we don't really close the you know the funnel too early. So for some institutions, once you apply through AMCAST, there's some sort of cutoff thing and then only a certain number of people get invited for supplementary. For us, we actually, if you generally are eligible to apply and there's only a few things that that make you not eligible, then we actually invite some supplementaries to virtually everyone. Okay. And so this one allows us to be able to see the full context rather than just simply making a decision based on let's say a number up front. So all of the applications are actually reviewed and that one's something that's unique for us as well. We really want to be able to see the full range of talent. We want to see the context and that's why we've embraced this holistic approach to our decision making process. What about the MCAT? I remember last summer you guys kind of shook the pre-med world when he made a decision about that it wasn't test optional. I can't remember all the details. Are you requiring the MCAT this year? You're back to requiring. We are absolutely requiring the MCAT this year. Our response last year wasn't because we that wasn't a message that the MCAT had no value in the middle of this pandemic. And we had to make a decision about where we were and we prioritized the safety of our applicants. Because at that point in the process that we need to make a decision, it wasn't clear what was happening with the pandemic that we could safely end up testing thousands and thousands of applicants. And I'm very pleased to see that the AAMC was able to do that safely. But without that crystal ball, we said, we wouldn't really want to have applicants doing something that we ourselves were probably not going to do. I wasn't going to join in a group of sort of unvaccinated individuals in a large space. So it made sense to us that we could look at other variables that could be potential surrogates for that academic rigour. We were able to find those and you know, it was an exciting season. It was exciting. What about, are there any kind of must-habs that you look for in applications? I've noticed that in the MCAT, it indicates that you recommend shadowing it. In your mind, are there must-habs as far as experiences go that you value? So you wanted to take that one on that medically related experiences perhaps? Yes. We did say everything is recommended, but not an requirement, but at the same time, we feel like medical exposure is essential to an applicant's sober understanding of medicine. How one goes about attaining that, you know, it varies widely from opportunities that are available to somebody. So it's really what we are looking at is that, you know, how do you attain that experience? Are you shadowing somebody? Are you working as a medical navigator? Are you a caregiver to a loved one? So it could come from various different forms. It doesn't mean that somebody has to go to a hospital and be a medical assistant or something. People's, depending on where you are, your life situation, you might be experiencing that in different ways. So like Dr. Gibbs said, that's the reason we look at the application holistically. So all those experiences count. One question we've been getting this year, and I'm sure you have to given the amount of disruptions we've all had in the last year, a lot of prospective applicants and current applicants have been telling us that, you know, their shadowing experiences were eliminated because nobody's allowed in the hospital unless you were there to care for patients. So how do you plan to evaluate clinical experiences this year? What would you like people to hear about that? Yeah, I think this year it's not likely to come in the kind of traditional form. This pandemic gave us all this sort of opportunity to sort of reflect on what we wanted to, you know, how we want to contribute to the to the world. And we understand fully that the sort of in hospital experiences might not have been there for those. But we're curious. I think all of us are going to be curious about how our applicants will present themselves. Like how do they get out of their own box a little bit towards helping with the pandemic in ways that they could. You know, I know that I wish that there were more contact tracing than there is, but did they help in that regard? Now that vaccinations are happening, like I personally volunteered to help with vaccinations and I've been interested. I've seen lots of pre health and pre-med students and those arenas. So there have been some opportunities that students can avail themselves. But well, you know, again, continue to take it within the context of, you know, what did you do during this time? Yeah. How did you show, you know, advocacy and caring for others? And it may not be in the more traditional ways. Yeah. We do see, I mean, I'm sure other schools are seeing that too because of COVID, you know, the caregiving that they're doing for loved ones. the interest in medicine in general because of COVID, all these things I think will come through. We are looking for those kinds of things, and the implications as well. - I ask that just because, this is not the first time I've asked admissions deans about this question, 'cause I want listeners to hear that we're all gonna be trying to be flexible this year and be understanding that it's not gonna just look like it has over the last decades, of what clinical experiences always have looked at. And so it's important, I think, for them to hear, yet another school, Stanford med admissions team say, we're excited to see what you've been trying to do, even though your traditional clinical arrangements were maybe disrupted. And so I think that's important for them to hear, 'cause I think a lot of perspective applicants sometimes put unreasonable pressure on themselves to feel like they're kind of checking those boxes in a way. - Yeah. - What another thing I wanted to ask you about was kind of in that vein, I did some snooping around and I looked at your secondary questions and what kind of stood out to me? And I wanted to ask you about this. There's a secondary, and I love your essays for your secondary, by the way. They're really insightful. So the question is, select your desired medical practice. I think there's some drop down menus. Just why do you feel particularly suited for this practice scenario? What knowledge skills and attributes have you developed that have prepared you for this career path? What if somebody says, I don't really know what I wanna be when I grow up? So what do you, Dr. Gibbs? How do you tell people prospective students about that? - You know what's interesting is that we don't have an option for I don't know. - Okay. - Okay, so there's not an item, no. - Is that it? - Yeah. - I'm decided. This one's more of a sort of aspirational, directional. I'm pretty sure that my application didn't, I didn't end up where my application probably said that I said that I may have what it to do. And so this one's really just about establishing a just a general sense of direction. We don't or are not gonna hold you to it. But this one gives us a sense of, where have you been spending some of your time? And for what a potential purpose and the options they are range from someone who wants to practice in an academic center, to someone who wants to be more of a private practice or a or in health policy. So we want to get a sense of like, what's your head at right now? - Yeah. - It's not necessarily to lock you in. So that's why we don't give you an option for that. - I'm pretty broad. So it's kind of like Dr. Gibbs, but it's aspirational. You know, what he said, you know. And maybe for some people didn't know exactly, you know, what they want to do. - Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I, that we're, you're not looking to be locked in that, and that like you said, Dr. Gibbs, your career where you thought you were gonna be when you were a medical student, different than where you are now. And so, and that's what I think kinda cool. But I might add that, that in this, in the responses here, I think it is important to think about our mission because we do use this in a general way as it's connected to our mission. This one might have been a hint, hint. Make sure that you read the mission statements of medical schools, you know, as you're applying. And if we can see you here, and then you shouldn't be able to see yourself here as well. So if the mission isn't exactly locked in, then yeah, it may not work as well. But we're not just locked into just certain check boxes. - Yeah. - It's more about how you present your, your story. - What about research? Since you have the scholarly concentration program, do you require research, kind of quote unquote, air quotes, require research as an applicant, or if somebody doesn't have research, but they have all kinds of other really interesting things they've been doing, that's okay. We'll teach you how to do it when you get here. - So, Christian, I know that you've been doing a lot of reading on our site. And you might notice that the word research is in our mission at least twice, right? (laughing) So scholarship, I think broadly speaking, what we would consider scholarship is, and a sense of inquiry, investigation inquiry, is actually a key thing that we're looking for among most of our applicants. We know that that one showcases itself in many different ways. It doesn't have to be, you know, sort of basic, you know, lab bench wet, wet lab research. It can be many different forms of scholarship, but yes, scholarship is really important to us. So it could be somebody's senior thesis or a capstone project that they did, but doesn't have to necessarily be related to medicine or science could have to be related. - My literature project that I had to do as a capstone project kind of. - It does not have to be, you know, related to medicine. We do focus without giving, spilling all the beans, right? I'm gonna tell you, we do focus on a sense of depth, - Okay. - Depth of impact. - Yeah. - As we're reviewing and thinking about, you know, selection process, it really is about the depth of impact. And this one is an area where that kind of impact can be shown. - Yeah. Okay, that's a great segue into, let's get to the selection to be invited for interview. You get, you got, I think last year, you're like around 12,000 applications or something. - 11,000, yeah. - 11,000. - 11,833. - 11,000. - Yeah. (laughing) - And then get it down to 500 people invited for an interview. Those people really had to stand out in some way. And everybody's, and you have a holistic way that you're looking at this. And we could price it here all day and try to tease out what those things are that gets to the interview invite. But just in general, what are those, because the question we get is, how can I stand out in my application? When you get that question, Dr. Gibbs, how do you respond to that? - What I say is, be you, right? When people, what I notice is when people start just simply trying to be a cookie cutter if those are around them. Now for sure, there's gonna be this kind of basic checkbox of activities that pre-health students need to actually do. But that area of passion that kind of can just shine through the application that is uniquely yours, that's what we wanna hear about. We don't want you to hide that little light under a bush. We want to see that. And I think that's what allows, 'cause I can't, we will, at all today, be able to say you do X, Y, Z, and all your end. - Exactly. - Yeah. - Today is a sense that what resonates with the individuals reviewing your application is that mission alignment, that depth of impact and the passion that people have for what it is that they want to achieve in medicine. When that shines through, it becomes a fairly easy choice. - Yeah. That's great. And what did you do outside of what you're supposed to be doing, right? We are all supposed to do certain things and we go above and beyond that. That becomes an important part as well. In terms of leadership, volunteer experiences, things like that above and beyond. - Yeah, work history. I'm sure you guys value work history too. Students had to work and things like that. Yep. - So Stanford does the multi-mini interview process. And last year, we all had to take it online. So you're doing that again this year. You're going to be interviewing virtually again this year. What were some of your lessons learned from last year's virtual MMI that you're going to be implementing this year? - So I'll firstly say that last year, everything got spun for all of us. - Yeah. - Eve felt very, very fiercely to try to really do a good justice to the MMI in the virtual setting. We ended up deciding because of certain technical issues that we would do the VITA interview and more traditional interviews. Which traditional interviews have been part of our process. This year, we will have a much more robust system that's going to look very much like our kind of in-person MMI. So we'll bring that back. But yeah, we've been involved in MMI for about a decade. So it's a tool that we've found to be very, very helpful in predicting future clinical experience. And so we've relied on that as an additional information that our committee will take. But this year, our virtual MMI should look very similar in terms of, you know, a real MMI experience as our sort of in person. So we know that the interview day for us is more than about the MMI. The MMI, again, we'll talk about some details of that, but we feel that on the interview experience, it's, well, actually, all of our jobs, but particularly on the day of the interview, is about informing our candidates, engaging with them and making sure they leave inspired by that. And so we don't focus just on that one part. I know they focus on that a little bit because it can't be a little nerve backing, but we're taking this opportunity to make sure they get to know our students and get to be informed about who we are as well. I don't know if Sri had other things. Yeah, and Dr. Gibbs also says, you know, it's really that I know right or wrong answers to an MMI, you know, it's not something that you cramp for. You know, it's candidates, you know, interviews can just relax and be themselves. It's about that whole experience that they're bringing to the table and how they can interact with the traditional interviewer as well as all the other MMI interviewers. So it's not, maybe there is some preparation a little bit, but it's mostly about, you know, are you prepared for that moment, for that day, based on all your experiences and everything that you did prior to that? I don't advise. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, I was going to say, um, um, Christian, this one, and this one was to the credit of of Shari and some other new folks in our office, um, thinking a little bit outside the box. The virtual environment lends itself to being a little bit more flexible. So even though I had historically kind of thought of everything being crunched into one day, we did recognize that students are somewhat anxious on the interview day. Yeah. So sometimes the informational material, that part that you want to do to inform, sometimes gets a little lost because they're like, okay, okay, you know, yeah, I'm not thinking. So we're actually thinking of sort of splitting that experience so that the interview happens on a different kind of day and time and the informational engagement piece can now be, you know, just focused on that. So yeah, okay. Great point, Dr. Goaps. Yes. How do you advise students to Shari? You said there's a little bit of preparation that goes into NMI, but you know, for the most part, just rely on your experiences and things to help you craft your responses. But how do you advise students to kind of get ready for that, that scenario, that situation? I mean, obviously there is a lot of information out there about NMI stuff. I'm sure, you know, people are looking at it. And I believe that our coaching companies out there that are making a living, you know, coaching candidates about NMI and things like that. But again, like I said earlier, it's about, you know, not preparing from a standpoint of just the MMI, but thinking about the big picture, you know, bringing your experiences because MMI is mostly about what the MMI leaders are looking at is for qualities that would make you a good doctor, you know, empathy, compassion, you know, things like that. And I think, you know, if you're yourself and you have those qualities, I think the person will shine. So as Dr. Goaps might say, you know, be you, as she said earlier, the other thing that I would say is that we are also making, I think we actually have a couple of videos that we actually share with the candidates that we invite for interviews to actually help prepare them. Like since these are virtual, you know, you know, how to make eye contact on camera, how to present themselves. In fact, we are working with one of our faculty members, Dr. Shini Watson to increase those videos. You know, we are going to have a series of videos that will be available to our candidates and maybe even to people outside of our school. You know, that will help prepare them for, you know, some of the mechanical things as well, that will help prepare them for these interview days. Yeah, it's really important that people are get access to the best kind of material like this podcast. I think it's part of that. No one's trying to hide all of the information for just individuals. And so, you know, we know that the MMI is not one that I mean that classically you can kind of cram for. There are some, some, you know, some tips and tools that can help you help the the mechanics of that go a little bit better. But we another hint I would say is that, you know, the MMI is very different from those traditional interviews. We can talk about ourselves and our body of work at, you know, at length. This one requires that you're sort of digging a little bit more deeply about how what your beliefs and your judgments are on particular kinds of scenarios. And so those applicants who are searching for validation from the faces of or whatever their interviewer, those will be, you know, a little disappointed. And so I think encouraging people to learn ways in which you might be able to sort of, you know, practice organizing your thoughts and giving in a timed scenario in a time space. Good tip. I always say though, you better lead with your best material because that time goes by really quick. So those kinds of things can be helpful, but really it's just living, right? Living, yeah. You're being your world. So when students are approaching MMI, do they have to feel that they have to nail every single station? Like what if, and one station they just like, I did okay, but I boy, I didn't, I don't think I, I didn't get an A plus on that. If I had to grave myself, I didn't get myself an A plus today. Is there a little bit of wiggle room that, yeah, there's definitely wiggle room. In fact, that was why the MMI was developed because the high stakes, you know, one time interview where you feel like you lost it. Like, oh man, my whole life hinges on this one response. The MMI allows us like 10 opportunities to be able to do that. And as a, you know, as it's consolidated together, it gives us a more a better picture of the range of, of experience. So any one scenario will never be the one that, you know, yeah. Yeah, I ask that just because I, again, I think perspective is current applicants put a lot of pressure on themselves and feel they have to be perfect at everything. But in this kind of situation, if, if for whatever reason, the station that you just had just didn't, you didn't do as well, maybe as you had hoped, it's you're not, the rest of your day's not lost, right? Like, the rest of your candidacy just didn't go down the drain. It just like, there's a little bit of wiggle room there. And that's one of the, like you said, Dr. Gibbs, one of the nice things about MMI is there's a little bit of that wiggle room there. Just to kind of wrap this up. But I wanted to ask you, do you plan, it's probably hard to tell looking to your crystal ball, but do you have any idea, are you going to invite it, interview ease to campus at some point or just kind of maybe look at just second look, maybe in the spring or what are your thoughts on that for this coming cycle? Yeah, this next year, I think the virtual space actually increases the accessibility for candidates. And that's very interesting. Candidates spend thousands and thousands of dollars on interviews. And so we're hoping to be able to curtail that by offering this. But eventually we do what are candidates to be able to see the campus and to be able to know what they're getting themselves into and to physically engage with our students. So we expect to have an in-person second look. And you know, as we could knock on wood right now, whatever happens with the pandemic. But that's our plan, our tentative plans for now. That's great. Absolutely. I am definitely looking forward to organizing a fantastic second look in-person event. Yeah. That's your first second look. Yeah, first look, seconds look. Yeah, what it was interesting this because like you, we met our students on, you know, a computer screen, you know, a two by four or two by two box. And then we met them for the first time on their day they started school. And it was, I've met some one of our students. And he goes, you're much taller than I thought. He always has one student who's one of our chief and I was like, whoa, I have every, every time I see you on, but she was very tall. It's fun to meet people. We love meeting the students in person. And so I'm anxious to have those kind of on campus things too because I think it's important for them to come and feel the vibe and see the place where they could end up spending the next four, four plus years. We're trying to be able to capture some of that and that's why we've seen a lot of time on some of the, you know, videos that we'll be playing or we'll be creating, getting a lot of sort of information so that we can get the feel of the vibe, you know, separate from just one on one interaction with the interviewer. But there's nothing like walking through the door though. You know, just kind open it you're walking into the building. - You might have that kind of virtual. - Okay, there's a teaser there. - Okay. (laughing) - Yeah, one thing I want to say, 'cause it is like, I just want to give a shout out to our volunteers that help us from across Stanford Medicine, not only the school, from the hospitals. You know, a lot of our MMI Raiders, our volunteers, wonderful people, they do it every year. A lot of our faculty also volunteer to review our applications. We also have, of course, staff and other leaders, but our volunteers at an integral part throw the admission process. So, I just want to give a shout out to them. - Absolutely, I'm sure they appreciate that, 'cause there's a lot of people behind the scenes that come together for the service of the institution. There's lots of them to do. - And of course, our partners from across the school, all the various offices from, you know, advising to medical education, wellness, and our student affairs team that, you know, does a great job. So, they're all very integral part of the school. - Yeah. - The whole admissions process, even though we are, you know, the face of admissions. - Everybody's invested. Yeah, everybody's invested. So, after the interview date, when does you have admissions committees, you're discussing candidates and making decisions. Do you do rolling admissions, or is there one day that when everything is sent out? - So, we have a sort of hybrid process, because, you know, as you know, we can't take every single candidate, even though I wish we could, that we interview. So, we kind of want to get a good sense of, you know, what the general pool looks like our committee likes to do that. And so, we generally are meeting, but we will begin to typically extend, or communicate acceptances in, usually in January. And then we'll go with a rolling process thereafter until we've extended all the acceptances. But typically, we're not sending out, you know, acceptances just with every single time that the committee does really want to see a pool of the applicants coming through before it makes its next decisions. Do you accept updates from interviewees? Is that important to you if I interviewed at Stanford and then I'm just kind of waiting. I interview in November and then I want to send you something. Do you take updates or you're like, we're good, we have enough info right now. - Yeah, so we do not accept updates just at the applicant stage, because once you get your application, you know, it shouldn't be edited. So, once we make a decision around interview, there is that opportunity usually around about two to three weeks. We don't, we close the door after a little while, two to three weeks around the time of the interview to be able to submit that. Otherwise, we can't necessarily guarantee that that information gets to the committee. But we do allow folks to give their best foot forward. I want to say, gotten past that interview stage to give us updates, because this whole process takes the better part of a year. - Right. - And so by that time, you know, hopefully certain things will have continued to move along in perhaps there are some really great updates to give us. - Yeah, but we do have a limit on letters or recommendation, though, so they reach, we need a minimum of three and a max of six. So if they already submitted, at least submitted more, all the six already, then we don't take anymore. - Okay, so no more letters have racked. - Yeah, most of the times we're winning updates of what you did. Every now and then, you know, an extra experience might warrant that if you have heard. - Sure, there's some research. - Like a new publication. - Yeah, it's probably something like that. - Yeah, okay. Hey, we've covered a lot of ground here, from soup to nuts, from curriculum to the acceptance piece. Before I let you to go, is there anything, any final thoughts, advice that you would impart on applicants that are going into this process, whether they're currently in or they're looking to, you know, get into the application cycle in the future years? - Well, I personally, it's been my mission to make sure that candidates understand that, or applicants understand that Stanford can be a place where you should be able to see yourself. I don't want you to discount yourself, because like I said, we're not looking for cookie cutter and you may be the very person that will enhance this learning environment in unique ways. So don't be dissuaded based on just looking at some of the numbers, et cetera. To really, you know, if your heart is to, you know, to pursue medicine and your passions aligned with our mission here, please, you know, we're happy to receive those applications. - Yeah, it's free. - Yeah, same thing I echo that. Stanford can be a place for anybody that has the passion to come and excel. And of course, you know, you know, based on the report that just came out from our Dean's office on the commission on justice and equity, you know, a lot of, it's a great place to be. Stanford Medicine is going to highly chief diversity officer. I think that's a new role that's being created across Stanford Medicine umbrella. It's diversity and equity and justice are, you know, paramount. And as people have had the passion for those, this is a place for that. - Yeah, well, I know that we're all needy for thigh deep or way steep into applications already. And I know both of you are very busy. So thank you so much for all the time you've given me today and great information for our listeners and prospective applicants and current applicants and little hints that you dropped in there. I think that's really special. And so thanks again, I'm very grateful. - Thank you so much, Christian. - Thank you, Christian. This is an absolute pleasure. - Great, well, I can't wait to see you guys in person and not just on a computer screen here. So let's keep our fingers crossed. The next thing will be at a conference together. And I think we can do that. Thank you in person. - You know, Christian, one thing of final one. - Yeah. - I want to say thank you because I think this one is a such a valuable resource for for students. So thank you for this really innovative idea of really getting the information out there. - You're making me blush. I couldn't do without people like you too. So this takes a, that's not just me. You know, I'm a, takes people like you to have some, give me share some of your time and your thoughts to talk about your school. So I appreciate it. Listen, I'm gonna let you go, take care and I hope to see you in person in the spring. - Bye-bye. - Bye. - Hey, that's a wrap. Thanks for listening. You could like what you heard, rate and review the show, it helps people find us. - See ya.