Episode 51: An Ode to Katie Archibald + Canada Women's Team Pursuit Scandal latest

The peace take is proud to be sponsored by the Velodrom shop. Have you been inspired by all the 51 of Katie's international medals? Do you want someone else's success as well? Well, guess what? You need to be physically good, tactically, technically good, mentally good, but you know, we also need some good kit and where can you get that, Johnny? The Velodrom shop. So whether you've seen Katie at Glasgow track league all the way up to the Glasgow worlds, you can get anything that you need for your track cycling goods from wheels, bikes, frames, handlebars, stems, the full. The full Monty is online at the Velodrom shops. You can get free world wide shipping. So check them out today at www.velodrom.shop. Take your track cycling to next level today. And now back to the show. Hello and welcome to the peace take. My name's Johnny Mitchell and one of your hosts and loose shirt. They're the host and we come to you as news broadcasters today. Newscasters is probably pushing it loose. But this week we're going to be bringing you a little bonus episode. Firstly, we wanted to cover the recent retirement of absolute track legend, Katie Archibald. So we want to make sure we give a bit of a cover of that. Give a tribute to Katie is both a rider and a person. But then also, well, I guess maybe on the topic of women's endurance, we also were going to have a little look at the recent situation that I'm sure many fans of the sport, many listeners to this podcast will know about is the unfolding situation in cycling Canada after the recent session to cut their women's team pursuit program. Well, we'll explain the situation. We've done a lot of research and yeah, give our take on it as well. Yeah, we'll get into. We'll get into it. We'll get into it. And I was also surprised they made people believe, apparently we have some influence because we've been bound messages. The people wanting us to cover this kind of thing is incredibly surprising. I was like, fuck, I was like, people want to hear what we want to say. And then especially with obviously my relationship with Canada, which we will come to. Look, Lewis is the Canadians have also been the people who have sent us the most hatred. And the podcast, the only the only hate mail we ever got was towards Lewis, but we'll come to that later as well. But I guess first without further ado, yeah, we saw this week. It was a, I would go as maybe for say, surprise retirement of Katie Archibalds. I think for most people, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Like, I mean, we, maybe for for the listeners, we get like the little press embargoes that the day before usually, usually it's like UCI is an answer to this like mobility scheme. And we're like, who cares about the Congress? You know, or something like that. But then like, I tell you what an email to receive on Monday from Scottish cycling's media, going like Katie Archibalds retirement. I was like, you know, like you were in Japan. And obviously I'm terrible at keeping a secret. I'm like, I can't even tell anyone. You know what I mean? I can't leak this news. But like Lewis is. You were already in bed. Yeah. So it's been a terrible week for me. Yeah, surprise retirement of Katie. You know, so Katie Archibalds, yeah, she's been seven time world champion. You know, she's 21 time European champion, which is absolutely incredible. Two time Olympic champion, one time silver medalist there. You know, like we won't go through everything. But in total, like 51 international championship medals over a 13 year career is just. How do we even sum it up, Lewis? I know I would love it like an F1. They always referenced like who's got the most wins like historically of all time. And honestly, we've obviously racketeed a ranked one medals and like, perhaps like, was ever because it's got to be. I don't I don't wish it would be in the top. I actually, it's going to be a potential medal. Well, yeah. And I think the things, well, that doesn't even include like World Cup wins or World Cup medals. That's the thing as well. Like, no, it's honestly insane. And she's obviously such a, I guess a unique rider. I don't know. I've always loved her like this, the style of how she, you know, attacks racism, how she rides. And I just find myself sort of mesmerized by it and like, drawn in to watching her race. And she's not like always leading it. I don't know. It's yeah. And I think obviously us being Scots. I've always felt an announcement of friend of ours. But like, even when I was going obviously a bit older and I didn't really know where, like, always felt an affinity towards Katie and like a respect and, and. I've always looked up to her in ways that I couldn't with like, we didn't have good role models. Obviously, we had Jack Ryan time table model. I just find like, like, like, what? Yeah, 100%. But he was tied to a 12 and I was like, go do me mental look up to him now. Well, and I think with Chris is that he, like, Chris is almost in such, he's in a separate pantheon of like, he is a status that like, is what, when we're just getting so much more relatable, like, you know, even even for me, yeah, like we were same age, like, she came through. It was quite a bit before me and stayed on for quite a bit after me. But just, yeah, like actually seeing someone. Who trained in Scotland, who's, you know, not just from here and they are not just the classic. They're dad Scottish and they're representing us at a race they've never met them before. But you know, I actually like, and someone who's been actively raised on the local scene, you know, like, cause all the way through. Yeah, actually all the way through. Yeah. God love Jack, but like, you got on GB, I never raised the Scotland again outside of maybe like a rev or a world champs or a world cup. Whereas like Katie was like, Katie raised track league. She'd raised like the Scottish champs like, you know, she, I think she might have even won the Scottish Madison men's champs one year is definitely one year near near. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they might have won it. You know, like, and love the game. But I just, yeah, for the absolute love of the game. And we have this rider who has retired to his, you know, and is a generation defining rider. We are a podcast about track cycling and it would be wrong for us to not highlight it. You know, we didn't just want it to be a nice little mention. You just don't, whoo, congrats Katie on a great career. But you know, like, and I think we'll get on at some point. I'm sure I mean, obviously, the podcast for me, we've actually never got on the podcast itself. Yeah, it's the original. No, absolutely. So and I think just, I'm just going to hit out right now. I for me like, Katie Archibald is the best endurance rider of the last generation. And she's, she's far too humble to ever say that herself. And you know, I have, and of course, there are different arguments for, you know, maybe Curson, wild, Lorcanne, Gene Valente. But I think, I think just with Katie, I felt like she was the most complete endurance rider. You know, she could do almost any position in team pursuit. She could do an incredible IP. She could, she could do every single bunch race with Madison Omniem, like, and was absolutely incredible in all of those events. You know, I can do like all the aspects of Madison, all the components you need to be a good bunch, razor. Yeah. Oh, God. You think of it just how good she was across the board. Yeah. It's Don't wrong. Gene Valente and Parasol Olympics, absolutely unbelievably good. You know, like, and there was race as Gene Valente, no one was touching her all the rest of it. But like, she never quite, I never just felt quite. And again, maybe this is our biases because we were watching Katie as you said at the start. But like, it never felt like she had that dominance on the track in terms of when she was on the track. It was like everyone else with me. If Katie was good, everyone else was like playing. Yeah. I mean, yeah, exactly. It's like when he can hit her on form. Yeah. I mean, it's just like putting on an absolute show. And then like someone so visibly better than everyone else across all aspects on that day. You know, and you never question whether they're going to lose. I've seen you see those like eliminations where like she would just like be three people left. And she'd just go for the sprint at the start. You know, I mean, she'd just go for like a four lap effort. And yeah, like no one got need her. You know, and I think like one thing as well as insane. And why why I when you maybe kind of look at result sheet and all the rest of it is that she was doing that level of dominance in such a crowded field with Kirstenville, you know, with Laura Kenny with, you know, maybe like your Amy Cures or your Edmonds and you know, and then later stages like Jen Valente and you know, Ali Walliston's all of these riders who are coming through Katie was up there like competing. You know, and maybe some of the dominance who've seen an error in women's endurance is like, well, the field maybe wasn't quite as busy. Whereas in women's endurance, probably named 12 14 riders, well, one like world championship medals or who, you know, like who've been very good at certain levels, where Katie was like through this entire generation has been consistently up there. Yeah. And she also has created some of the best moments in sport as well. You know, at least for, and again, we're biased, but like some of the races that she's won in the ways that she's won, like you know, me and Johnny were talking about it before we came on and he was unlocking memories for me of like things I just forgot because again, you forget how long how long she's been going for it, but you know, she wasn't going real. And and she still feels just as current now. Mm hmm. You know, and yeah, as you say, like she's found that time where it's like the whole evolution of women's endurance. She's been at the top every stage. So it's the evolution of the discipline almost through Katie Archbund. I think that's maybe where it's like, yeah, the sports change and she's changed with it. Yeah, like, well, she's been one of the riders leading that change. And this is why it feels quite a seminal moment in her time until we're wrong. I should say like Glasgow Veloid from this week, like it was, it was like a funeral. You know, anytime someone brought up Katie and it's not even like the people weren't just like sad. They were like devastated. Like Katie's. Because they know they're going to lose the funding. But just but just a little gold and gusty. Lady. Exit more, you know. Not the masters ain't getting any funding from her. You know, but but yeah, even said that, that right and real. It's like that for me. And again, don't wrong. I wasn't watching every team pursue it. There was at that time. But for me, like that real final with Katie, she was, she was, she was pulling like two, three lap turns. I don't know the exact turn strategy, but that felt like the first time that like we saw someone. Yeah, because it used to be so regimented yet. It was like, yeah, everyone does the minute turn. They wasn't really considered like what your ability was. It was like just kind of, yeah, well, even even as your P forward, often try and set off the back just in case there was a crash with the front three to come and finish. You don't mean like that, but that was the way team per se it was. Whereas there's after real that that changed a three person. finish event, just redefined that event with her strength. Talking of big turns, one of the most absolutely dominant races we'd seen and goes back to what you say about just our ability across different disciplines, like the Tokyo Madison. Like it was, it was enamoring to watch. And I am especially because you know, it's COVID and we're kind of, I was more investing in the racing than I've ever had before because there wasn't anything else to do. So we had. Yeah, it was all I had. And just one of the most dominant displays I've ever seen in cycling. And it's because it's not, I think it was also special. We kind of talked about this is like, it's not just a physical. If anything, she's to, she's tactically and technically better. You know, then she is physically. And like when you bring, I mean, that's why she's been so dominant. That's why she got 51 international medals. And it was like that was, you know, how athletes have the day where you see why they've had the success and they are what they're fully gameable of. Like I feel like that was a different Katie. We're like, it was all on the table. I mean, and just to say like from a stats point of view, I just ripped it up there. The women's Madison results in Tokyo. They finished on 78 points. Denmark in seconds were on 35. Like they, they wasn't like anyone else play. Yeah, it was just so good. And, you know, and I think speaking of Madison, you know, like, as Katie even said in her retirement, kind of post, all the rest of it. Which was fantastic. Recommend anyone going and reading as well, like, you know, really beautiful. One of the nicest, you know, she's a good writer as well. So like, she's a phenomenal writer. She still does a Mac column I think in Ruler. You know, in that in her post as well. And so she spoke about it. And I think anyone who knows Katie knows how. Like strongly she believes in that as well as it like, Madison for women didn't exist 10, 15 years ago. You know, like there may be the address. Like the women's world Madison champs only started in 2017. We're talking nine years ago. Like that's, you know, and like, and she unwell, obviously, yeah, lots of Peke and Kirstenville and IAAP. Peters and a lot of these readers have one number of world titles. Like Katie is someone who's really just taking that event to another level. And I think alongside that Tokyo Madison, one racist stood out for me as well. Was that again, like maybe one that people maybe don't know. It's like there was a world cup in Glasgow in 2017. She was riding with man in Lloyd and like she crashed. She broke her wrist and they they went on to win it. And like the last sprint. And I mean, I think they crashed like this. Absolutely second or third sprint. They were then like 10, 15 points down and they were hunting the French to win it. And I remember like, because it's obviously it was a massive crash. And then it's like, you know what? To do to do any race on a broken wrist. Yeah, rough. Madison. Like unbelievable. That's the whole point. Unbelievable. Only wrist specific event. Oh, just just, you know, and that and let in a home crowd, you know, in Glasgow. I remember I remember watching that in person. And it was like again, even the anyone, anyone gets back on in races and wins is always like special. But like, yeah, I know obviously we didn't have X-rear eyes. I didn't know at that point that the wrist was broken. But like, yeah, there's a pretty hefty crash. And speaking of Glasgow, you know, she came back into the team. In Glasgow, we're old in 2023 and she won a gold medal in a team pursuit. I think anyone, everyone who knows what she'd came back from, you know, with crashes, with injuries, with, you know, the real tragic death of her partner, rapper, Del, like, to do that at home we're old. And truly was one of the, one of the most, I don't know, felt like move. And again, you know, we know KT, we knew rap, like one of the most moving things I've ever seen in sport. And I was, yeah, so great to see. Yeah. And I think like, so a lot of people, especially people aren't in sport, think athletes are like, well, you know, they're so inspiring, they work so hard, you must be so resilient, all this and that. And if you're in high school, it's for, I mean, like, we really gotta know, like half the people are not like that. Like, they're just really talented. Like, yeah, they work fairly hard. Like, they are not the heroes that you think they are. And I'm not gonna say that I was, or, you know, but like, I was different. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah. The level of what KT has achieved, especially in that year in Glasgow, considering everything, especially in that on the end points race, how hard she raced against all odds. Like, she went to a place that barely any high forms athlete can, can put themselves in. Like, it's hard to really articulate this, but it's testament to her as an athlete that she could do something that very, very few couldn't, you know, and it goes, we don't want to just say that she's fast because she's, she's a good physically or that she's good tactically or she's good technically. Like, mentally, she was the strongest that you get. And I think that's really from me what separates KT from most people that I trained with, race with, new, and in the sport. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that like, you know, she's always been someone. Again, I don't know. Yeah, so we were prone to kind of phrasing, you know, so that phrase always gets thrown around, like, where's the heart and their sleeve, but like, I don't know, like, you would watch her racing, you would, you could almost feel emotion being put into it. Like, again, I don't know whether that's just me just talking about her riding style because the head's purely nodding all over the place. Yeah, no one's working this on. I should also say like, because KT's, because like, when she was dying her head would like start moving, but then she would also like, you'd be, all right, okay, that's KT, that's KT cooked. And then she'd come back from that. You're like, oh, she wasn't dead. Like, yeah, it wasn't, it's not the barometer. Yeah. Doesn't make sense. But no, I guess to go back to that only in points race as well from world's like, because KT ultimately, I'm say, only finished fourth. Like, she started that point race. I think that was like in eight, nine, third, eighth, she had terrible on the up to that point. I do remember because we were both in the media zone watching that. It just felt just like someone getting absolute zenith out of themselves. And if I could sum up like who she was as a bike racer, it was that, you know? And I think a lot of, and a lot of maybe as a person as well, like, again, you can just see the genuine outpouring of, I don't know, like love for KT over social media from just random people who maybe like, done it, you know, again, done a track league with her or just, or their kids just, well, it's because she was so present. She was so present. She was so friendly. She was so involved in the grassroots scene, like, you know, everyone feels like, you know, but because they do, you know, and she would always make time for everyone. And that's why, you know, she has this connection that when you talk about your Chris always, you just don't quite have because they're on a plane that you just can't access. Whereas KT was the sort of way that like, which really connects with everyone, like, that despite having so much success for people, people can get lost now, you know, just be them again, or that you can just never have seen the relationship with them. That was never the case for KT. Yeah. And I think maybe one thing I just said a little, some, some not always stuck with me is that like, I remember I went to, I went to like, on the 23 euros and said like, 2015 and like, KT was there. She'd been, she'd been World Champion, you know, she'd been European, she was currently European Champion at the time. And the T.P. like, she's always currently European Champion. Yeah. And something, yeah. She's going to have to find like, lawn bowls or something after this, like just to keep it going. You know, like, is, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, like, and we're at this race. And I should say at this point, like, GB this time, and again, and this could also just be my perception of it at the time, so I was coming in as new, but like, it always felt quite relatively hierarchical in terms of like, you know, the men's on the 23 academy when they were meals they would sit with each other, you know, on the jurns, and the sprinters would sit with each other at breakfast and meal times, yada yada. And then maybe there's almost just maybe a bit of a bridge that people wouldn't cross or almost, you know, if you were a junior, you wouldn't go and sit with them under 20 or 20 or 20. So you're really grateful to him. And I do just remember, and it's funny because it'll probably be like, I first think it's probably like Meg Barker and Blubyn Jess Roberts, you know, it's like, right, just obviously now in the squad, but I don't know why it's kind of stuck out of such a memory to me, but it's like, I remember just seeing these junior girls, KT Arch will come and sit down with their breakfast and search chant away to them as like a podium rider and they're kind of, you could see they didn't really know what to do and she's just like, what's something a normal conversation. And I think that, that to me is always just went that, that's who KT Archible is. You know someone who, yeah, almost transcends those hierarchies transcends a lot of, also maybe expectations that are putting her in is just herself and the person that she is is a really good person in doing that. Just, yeah, just someone with total humility, like no ego, I also just want the betterment of everyone around her. And also just a normal person, which is, which is rarer than you would think I've promised for it. Our selves included. Yeah, because again, not claiming to be normal myself, but I think the reason this caught so many people by surprise is the fact that like, you know, as we know, we're talking about podcasts like we do have a con with games coming to Glasgow this year. KT is from Glasgow, like, well, kind of, you know, she's like, I got it from Glasgow. It's a good one. Come on. Johnny, Johnny, Johnny was contested by from Glasgow. No, no, no, no, no. Hey, count second. And for context of some people, like KT's career was was springboarded by 2014. Like, you know, last time Glasgow had con with games and I think all of us thought rightly, well, obviously Glasgow's not going to have another games in our sort of athlete lifetime. And probably fairly unlikely, the rest of our lifetime as well, you know. So for it to come back to the games, I know that for Jack, you know, the decision to retire, like, it's obviously such a big factor. We started considering you got home games. And KT almost could have bookended her career with the start of being at Glasgow 2014, you know, in her at Comma Star. And then the end, you know, in 2026 at Glasgow at home, it would have spied on this amazing career. But the thing about elite sport is it's often not fairytale or at least that's not, you know, the stories you look at, you get told the stories of fairytale. that's not always the case. - Yeah, there's no suggestion as well that, like, Katie broke the world record in the T.P. in March. You know, she's still obviously at that level. She's still at such a high phenomenal level, but as you say, like, actually, as she said in her own words, it's just time. You know, she's put her body through so much, ultimately on all the rest of it, and yeah, there's only so much longer, if the head's not in it, if the heart's not in it. - Yeah, no exactly, and I think, like, you know, not to like in my retirement, like, it is Vining Means, but I remember just sitting there thinking, like, you know, you know what it takes to get the best out of yourself, and I knew that I didn't have it anymore, and that's obviously somewhere where she's got to. And the reason I also find this up is, you know, she's been so successful, but you also think of it, a lot of times it's not worked out for, like, she's really had a bumpy road, and, you know, you rhyme off all those statistics and all those results, and you think of it as things like, you know, she missed Paris, you know, for no fault of her own bike. It's a weird on the Katie, where you feel almost rude to see, to say like, I feel like there was more there to be had. - When you were saying like bumpy roads, like, I actually remembered, but I said, I read this earlier, and I was like, oh shit, this is something I completely forgot. Katie was in like a motorbike crash in 2016, like a few months before the Olympics, where like, I think she like broke her ankle, shit, shit, I can't remember the exact injuries, but like, she came off a motorbike at like 70 mile an hour, 'cause she missed models in 2016, then March in London, like, you know, like even that, even that for a not for a normal, but even that for the normal sense, that's like, that's a propensity to getting injured in weird sort of events as phenomenals. - Yeah, that's, that's, that's, and yeah, as you say, like, like, she's been so unfortunate, it was so many different things happening in her life in terms of crashes, all the rest of it, but like, that Paris one, that was always one that really felt like, okay, this is, yeah, that's almost the one that got away, you know, and again, maybe it's just 'cause we've had a podcast at that point. - Well, she went in the one, 'cause obviously, Jennifer went in, but she had a one time a year, which was doing a tag, no, no, no. - I still maintain Kate. - No, 100% of the normal days. - I'm not suggesting. - But no, like, it's, she has been best bond tracer, best endurance rider of the last generation. You know, she is the full arstall, but like, maybe not quite, she's so got a very, very full metal cabinet, but it's just when we were really often numbers, it was like, am I head you one more? But, yeah. - It's worth to be out there. - Yeah, yeah, but hey, what a career, what a rider, and what a person, Kate Archbold. - And hopefully we'll get to the tribute with her on the pod. - And don't Katie should tell us why she wasn't at goods, you know? - Yeah, I know exactly. - Self-deprecating Scottish person, but the peace take is proud to be sponsored by the Velodrome Shop. - Have you been inspired by all the 51 of Katie's international medals? Do you want some of our success as well? Well, guess what? You need to be physically good, tactically good, technically good, mentally good, but you know, we also need some good kit. And where can you get that, Johnny? - The Velodrome Shop. So whether you've seen Katie at Glasgow Track League, all the way up to the Glasgow Worlds, you can get anything that you need for your track cycling goods from wheels, bikes, frames, handlebars, stems, the full, the full Monty is online at the Velodrome Shop. You can get free Worldwide shipping. So check them out today at www.veldrome.shop. - Take your track cycling to next level today. - And now back to the show. - Well, now we've done the sort of lovely and fluffy bit, Johnny. Feel like it may be time to get on to the slightly spike here section of the podcast. We've been leaving you in Tissipations, we're all by the 20 minutes probably. We've been waiting for us to discuss the juicy bit. Yeah, they're like scrubbing through like, when they're gonna shot up a bit of Katie. - Who's Katie? - They're right on track. - Yeah, cycling fans. - Who's Katie? - Part of what's spot this podcast mainly. And the reason that we wanted to do it quickly was, we'd been, as I say at the beginning, we'd been asked to cover this Canadian cycling situation. And part of the reason we're doing this episode is that we wanted to get out quickly is because just with the timeline of the normal episodes, like we didn't want you guys to have to wait for us to cover this kind of situation also. Like to put it at the start of like a person's podcast and then sort of add on this like interview for an hour and a half or so, and just wouldn't quite work. And also this war and, you know, this does war in our time and our consideration because, you know, ultimately, we want the athletes voice to be heard and we do this podcast for that. And that's why we're behind like, you know, we're high-liked people and don't normally get covered. And we make sure people have time to tell the story. And this felt like a situation where, the athlete voice wasn't considered by the federation. And, you know, we always want to advocate to make sure there's coverage. Like athletes who have the core of this sport, they're the people that raise them like, yes, the staff are important, yes, the infrastructure around them are important. But ultimately we do it for the athletes. That's who we watch and that's who tries to support success. Before we begin, I'm going to give a heavy list of taboo apps because this isn't an evolving situation. You know, we don't know who one we have done it. Yeah, we have done our best to research this as thoroughly as we can and speak to all the people that we felt was necessary to make sure that they got, you know, enough information that this wasn't just purely speculation. And we aren't trying to directly compare this to the men's program, like this is not about the men's program. This is a bit of a decision that's like on Canada made. And there's no disrespect to any athletes at all, in any program or anything. This is not what this is about. And, you know, finally, I feel like something, and it's worth saying, we like, I'm not trying to pat my own back here, but we have been quite critical of cycling Canada for quite a while now. And not because we've got any, I've not got a gripe against them. Yeah, I mean, I should say like, as I said earlier on the show, Canadians are the only hatred we actually ever got as a podcast because during the Olympics, I think it was our day one roundup I think it was. Then I want to go back and listen, it's all there. There's a good few times. Yeah, there's a good few times. But, no, well, because I think, yeah, you'd called out as either team-per-sort of team sprints, but just like, there was some quite monumental errors that we saw from riders doing that was like, and I remember you kind of summed up. And I do remember you summed up quite well. It's just like, this isn't just something that's down to athletes and then making a mistake on the day. And then we had a coaching decision. This is something which has either not been seen, or not been acted upon in a training environment. Like we work in this space, the two of us have histories and athletes, I've worked in national federations as a coach. There are lots of pieces of this which, you know, and there are lots of pieces that we don't know, but there are a lot of pieces that even from the outside, from our experience of having been in high performance systems, we can read between the lines. Yeah, and this goes back to the comments that we made. They weren't unfounded. We just had a feeling that it wasn't something wasn't right and it kind of has not proven over time, you know, with like a lot of stuff that came out from kind of something including like the bibbush situation. But-- This issue around this women's team pursuit team and the funding being cut. Again, I'm not sitting saying this, speaking of a half of athletes of Canada, but like having been in these environments, these things are often the tip of the iceberg. These things are, you know, like what you are seeing is a culmination typically of issues that have maybe emerged or happened over the course of years. You know, like for the most part athletes when athletes speak up in systems, it is not just-- Again, it's a cakey archival phrase. I was wondering if it's not about the bins. You know, so when you have an argument and a flatmate about the bins, it's not about the bins. It's about the fact that you've not left all your shit out for years, you know, these things build over time and it's not just about this decision. That's where you're seeing such a range of comments and feedback from writers and former writers than the program and all the rest of it. So I think before we get into it and our thoughts of what's happened, just to make sure everyone's in the same bases of uncovering what has happened. Now, Bucklein, it's an interesting ride. Well, firstly, I think just maybe to give a bit of context, when you look at Canada, since the inception of Team Pursuit, Canada has had a very strong history of Team Pursuit, particularly in the women's discipline. They were on the podium in the London Olympics. They were on the podium again at the Rio Olympics. They were fourth in Tokyo. We'll come into how that progressed over the years after that. But even through their men's program, their women's program. And they had, there was that period in the, particularly in that Tokyo cycle, it was we saw with development of Kelsey Mitchell, Lorie and Janie, like sprint side of things, had Hugo Barret in the men's side of things. And then in the men's team, there was a group that really seemed like they were kind of coming on. And that and the definitely was a big development towards Tokyo, women's program came forth. Since then, I think we can say there has been a decline in the program, you know, in Paris. And again, there's no disrespect to the writers in the program. We know that performance is a multitude of different factors. It's not just down to athletes. It does come down to staff. It comes down to the environment. Yes, equal to. And we know that they cleaned house after Tokyo in terms of staff. And it wasn't just writers that were leaving. Yeah. But you know, then. So, as you say, London 3rd, Rio 3rd, Tokyo 4th, Paris 8th. Recent World Championships in Santiago, they were 9th in the time of 425, which is roughly a kind of don't know the time off top of my head, but I think the fastest bit of 406, 407. So you're talking almost 20 seconds from the winning time. You know, and as we said, as a lot of you said, Lewis, a lot of key writers retired after Tokyo. And after Paris, particularly, some writers stepped on to the road like Maggie Coslister, Sarah Van Dam, for example. You know, what we've then. What we've also seen in Canada are some. And again, there are funding issues in Canada. That's quite well stated. The funding from there, we call it Own the Podium, which is one of the main funding bodies. That has been continually declining over the last few years. Anyone who wants to look that up, you can find the exact numbers on Google. But there have also been quite well-documented wider cultural issues within that program, namely the non-selection of Dylan Bibich, which, again, not to say we called it, but we did cover it when it came out. And that was where, what happened is that the selection panel had changed the cry selection criteria for 20, 25 world's to not include results from 2024, which was effectively directly and was found by an independent panel to have been a direct case of bias in a selection process. And I guess this may be from your point of view, Louis Sighton, and you'll know yourself, these things, no appeals ever often really come true. Oh, it never happens. Yeah, it is very, very difficult to see an appeal, firstly, the whole way through. And secondly, to the point where it's ruled on in your favor as the athlete, like you really have to have significant evidence to reverse. Because it's not like you're reversing something that's already sort of been ruled, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I say that because often, like, I've been-- again, I've sat as a coach on selection panels. I've made selection decisions. I carried that can as a coach. And yeah, like you make sure when you have that, you have the data to back that up. And I don't wrong. Sometimes data is also tenuous. So it's-- so I guess what I mean from that is it to-- for that to have been overturned again, as we said at the time, that was so significant. And I think we actually can set it time like this isn't just one thing. There must be other things going on here. That is a significant thing. So then fast forward then-- so the women's team pursuit team, they'd qualified for the World Championships in Shanghai this year, later this year. The riders alleged that they were told by cycling Canada to focus on the bunch of events, rather than the team pursuit event, for the World Cup in Hong Kong that they raised. And basically, they went there. They did, again, didn't-- you know, I think they would probably-- let me say themselves as well. They didn't have a good race there. They went 425 again. They didn't qualify for the team pursuit. And subsequent to that, on the 5th of May, the head coach sent out an email. And I say, we have the email. I'll give a summary. When there was no prior review at this point, there was no context beyond being told, we were aiming for the World Championships. We're going to qualify for World by turning up to Nations Cup, and then we'll focus on that. The head coach sent the email saying, "Following a review, the track program team pursuit performances, cycling Canada's determined that, as unlikely, a women's team pursuit would meet the performance objectives at 2026 track world championships. Given the outcome of the review, current budgetary constraints faced by cycling Canada, it was established that a women's team pursuit should not be sent to 2026 worlds." Now, stuff about how resources will be directed towards individual events and development, TP opportunities, moving forward, they'll look at several initiatives to support development, domestically working, whether world-class fellow drone, you know. And basically reframing the focus towards competition objectives in Brisbane 2032. And essentially saying that they would focus their qualification strategy for the 2028 early Olympics towards the women's omnium and the women's Madison. The email ended, we are available to answer any questions or concerns athletes may have regarding this change, regards. Off the back of that, as I'm sure you would have seen on your Instagram feeds, et cetera. Like the athletes also came out to PO this decision. And off the back of that, I mean, the public support has been phenomenal. It's been a bit of a dumpster fire for the PR of cycling Canada. Answer. You know, people say there's no such thing as bad PR. I think maybe in this case, this is an exception. The fact is, it's obviously penetrated to like every area of the globe. Like people for some reason have really resonated with this story. And it's drawn attention from all the sort of news outlets, including reputable ones like the PCD podcast. So much so obviously, CEOs have to come out and defend it. Yeah. And essentially CEO Matthew Boucher, who said, based on what we've seen in competition over the last 18 months, certainly the men are showing the gap is smaller to reach that top four, top six, which wasn't sure, is it top four, is it top six, but I don't know. And they're certainly hard realities at the current competition. The team, we don't foresee that. The women's team pursuit can be competitive as we need to be to continue to receive funding for the program, to continue to get sponsorship and to justify the investment. Subsequent to that. So the writers have formally lost an appeal since then and 16 to May, so just yesterday, two board members of cycling Canada have resigned from the organization. I'm stating, ultimately, I believe athletes deserve better transparency, better communication, and better respected within the support, within the system that exists to support them from Becky Barrettie. And I think we say so far across the entire Canadian sporting sphere. There has been a lot of comments. And you want to think the writers directly affected have came to social media to put that case out there to register there, this pleasure. But also a lot of writers, maybe most promptly, Ariane Bonholm, former team pursuit writer, who's left the team. A lot of writers have came forward at Alison Jackson of, say, prominent road cyclist in Canada has also been out on the socials, letting everyone know how she felt. But yeah, it's had a lot of big coverage. So it's something we felt, again, as Lewis said, like athletes are the lifeblood of our sport. Without athletes, we don't have a sport. And we want to firstly give a bit of an appraisal of this situation, but from people who have experience of the sport, it may be a bit of a more also nuanced understanding of it as well. And we'll give you our take. So to hear your thoughts, Lewis, like the main point that this has been presented at from cycling Canada's point of view is it is a performance led decision. And I think from your point of view, where would you say that the woman's team pursuit really wearing that level in the performance side? We'll come to that first and we'll talk maybe through some of the other issues. I think what's clear to set out from the beginning is that we're in a sport that is very objective, that it's time-based. And you can quite clearly see when someone isn't making the mark. And I think in the case of the woman's team pursuit squad, they would also be the first to make that they were a long way off the level. They were long with the mark. And someone have remarked that on their Instagram posts. And obviously, we spoke in some of the riders who have sort of been the first to admit that. So that part of that, I guess, that's not what we're trying to dispute. And also that's not really what matters here. That's not why we're picking this up. We're picking this up because of how they went about it, not because of the performance of the athletes. It's about how cycling Canada has communicated this. How cycling Canada has then defended it as well. They've also changed the story through this process, where it was budgets and then it was suddenly performance. We're not really here to suggest that we think that the women's team pursuit squad were going to medal in 2020. I think it is utterly, utterly commendable. And I think when people don't really always grasp the level of support that athletes, the level of personal investments, athletes in Canada have to put into it. You even want to kind of key people coming forward, fueling them agenda. She's training as a doctor, while also almost funding herself as an athlete. You know, because athletes in Canada, they pay the cost of project fees. So when they go to a race, they go to a world championship. Depending on the level that they are at with what time standards they've hit, they will pay a contribution to that and often in the thousands and thousands of dollars. So essentially the system is that they'll get funding from sport Canada. You know, maybe get a small, a nominal amount per year. And all of that, if they're then to try and compete at the world champs, then giving all that money back to cycling Canada, just to go to the world champs, even the Canada's current reigning women's road cycling world champion, Magdalene Valier. She paid most of the cost of herself to get to Rwanda last year. You know, and that's on the road as well. And it's a similar situation in track. So I guess you say firstly, it's like, you know, absolutely seeing and commend the efforts that Canadian track athletes are putting in for the love for the love of the game. And they're not naive. You know, the high-comments athletes, they understand this performance-based decisions. I think as we've seen again, a lot of the kind of complaints haven't been, you know, there's been no real, there's been some sort of dispute about, well, where's the level actually at? There's maybe, you know, from some commentary around the men's, women's team, all the rest of it. That is as a say-lice, that isn't the issue here. The issue is more that when, and I think how I see it is that like, if you are an athlete in that system, you need to have trust and faith. And particularly the more that you're putting of your own personal investment into that system, the more that that system, and that kind of social contract. You know, I think it says that as a coach that if I'm working with an athlete, there is also that social contract of like, I am asking an athlete to give absolutely everything they've got to get the most from themselves. And that is almost contingent on the basis that I as a coach or I as a support staff member, I'm doing everything I can to get them to the highest level as well. From my expertise, from, you know, the resources I can find being creative, or whatever that looks like. And I think the way I really, again, I'd phrase around this is that if just feels like a lot of that social contract has been broken and been broken for quite some time. Yeah, so we talked about the communication. So let's first touch on like, yeah, how you said it was done. They literally, from our understanding from speaking to people, got that email out of nowhere. And I mean, as you see, there's a duty of care of the coaches of the staff and that sort of social contract. And again, we're all high-front athletes. We understand that, you know, people get removed off programs because they don't hit times. Programs sometimes do get removed if they're not competitive. But like, there's a process that needs to be followed in order to do that, especially like, you know, someone like Cyclicander, but you'd expect that. to have a sort of modern outlook on how to do this. You know, I would expect to know in advance that they were looking at the women's team for the program, there were questions around its competitiveness. Here are the terms that let's see, this is where you need to get to, this is the timeline that we need to see the performances on. And this is a regular occurrence for any athlete individually or within a team, you know. Because of the amount you give to a sport as an athlete, you have to operate on a basis of trust because you need that trust in order to get the most out of yourself. You cannot do otherwise. And you know, what they've done here is completely rip up. Every expectation I would have as an athlete and the goodwill that I would expect and the support that I would expect from a federation, if they truly want to get the best out of me. And again, if the doing, this must be a program wide thing. It's not just like this, but it can't be a one off. It's like this level of lack of care is probably more, most likely, transplanted across all the programs. I think the thing that stands out for me around this is obviously not just the fact that there's the there's the carton who's done it by email. And you know, like, like, being dumped over text, you know. There's that aspect of it. In which, also, I feel, I'll be honest to coach, I feel doesn't pass the test of how. Are you carrying out your responsibility to your athletes of that duty of care? I think firstly, on that, it falls at the first hurdle. But I think the thing as well, I look at this is that there was not even a suggestion to try and find an alternative. If I have no budget, and I can't allocate that money towards something that I don't think is going to be, you know, yield success or yield something, then that's a relatively standard decision that you're making any performance system, performance sport, whatever. But I can still also see what other, maybe, any alternatives can be. It was a lack of curiosity. Yeah, can we look at myself? How can we make this work? We care about you. We care about this program. We care about the future of Canadian women's team pursuit team and women's endurance. Like let's do our best to make this happen. And also just sorry, like, you know, sometimes there's that thing you come off a team's call and someone's like, that could have been an email. That this is one of these emails where it's like, this should have been a call. This could have been a nine month kind of well-communicated process, culminated in the person meeting. I think on a matter of integrity here, this has almost been portrayed, as he says, if it's been a process, as if it's not a knee-jerk decision. But as you say, if it's just been communicated straight after a race, you know, what we're talking after Malaysia, talking to you. Yeah, it's clearly something the senior leadership team have been thinking about for a while. I haven't thought to communicate that with the actual people it affects. Yeah, you know, that, they, I could say it doesn't pass us. Or it's a decision on a whim. So like, you know, either way, it's like, well, could have done better. And I think they can annex part as well. It's around that PR side of things, you know, the, well, you know, like, Lewis, as some of our listeners might know, might know or might not know, you've actually been quite heavily involved with politics in the UK in the last few years. And I guess I just put, you know, like, in the special UK politics, we have our fair share of crises, fair share of scandals. Like what, guess beyond from the performance side, beyond from the actual side, you know, part of you from the, to the athletes, how have you rated it when you've been looked at this situation? What was your kind of thoughts around the PR side of things? And actually, just, you know, as an organization that needs sponsorship to survive, they've somehow managed to have a absolute bin fire going on in their backyards. How old are they? Yeah, well, this is the thing, isn't it? Like the great irony is that they are, you know, cutting this program because of budgetary constraints or speaking of PR, the CEO then goes and changes his response goes actually knows performance related. And then you sit in there and you're like, well, there's two different stories here. And again, it goes back to that smell test, doesn't it? This doesn't feel right in a lot of ways. And, you know, to speak of the irony, it's like, well, it's sorry, it's going to create a domino effect where like, you know, the budget constraints have really come greater and greater because now everyone's got the spotlight and cycling Canada. They look very bad from this. And they're going to find themselves even more difficult to set it place in than they are right now. And it feels like, it's interesting, because when you think about athletes, like just say, let's 2016, if this sort of thing happened, it really wouldn't have covered with any of the rostrums in the media. You know, in the UK, maybe, I mean, it would have happened like maybe, Lucy used to pick up on it, but it still wouldn't have the same traction. But with the sort of age of, I guess, media that we're in now, it's so accessible for the athletes to highlight the process and make their case to the world. Where typically, as an athlete, one just wouldn't be here. But then, but then I think the thing I'd say is we say that, but I think reading between the lines here is that like, the athletes are still putting themselves at quite significant risk to their own careers, to their own, you know, few, - Of course you are. -. just say, is my coming forward so publicly, because, you know, I've been in meetings as a coach, you know, where athletes have raised things and seeing often, you know, be honest, often, male staffs reaction to things, you know, and being a, being in a lot of those meetings or seen staffed, almost then turn that on to the athletes. And, yeah, again, you'll get any case of whistle blowing in any industry. It's the same the world over. Yeah, and, you know, and the other thing, it also just is obviously, as a sort of echo chamber, where like, they've thought about it for a while, they've kind of made a decision, they've been mulling it over, and it's not a surprise to them. So therefore, they don't consider that it's going to be surprised to athletes, or it's going to be surprised to the media, or people who are going to consume it, you know, because they've rationalized it, for being in their head beforehand. Yeah. And the other thing is, the different interesting was that they've doubled down in the defensive. You know, so obviously, these two options you go down, where you like, you say, "Oh, actually, you know, what we did get a lot of elements of this wrong, and we apologize to riders, and perhaps we will, look at how we can make this work, and you have a lot more responsibility taking, and a lot more empathetic, which is obviously important in this situation, we are dealing with purely people. But instead, they've gone down the double down route, where they've come in and gone, no, we've backed this decision. This is why we've done it, you know, essentially screw you." Yeah. Like, I don't want to be completely cynical here as well, because as we're saying this, these are important things, these are athletes' careers. But even if you're taking a very cynical look, even if you're looking at this, you're a very cynical lens. You know, if I want to get this story away, I would just say, okay, we're going to promise action, we're going to, you know, like, you promise some form of action, or some, you know, you can even kick the can down the road and say, we're going to have an independent review, we can bring someone else into this, yada, yada, yada, yada. In six months' time, that review comes out, and everyone's kind of forgotten about the issue, you know? Like, if you're going to be really sensibly cynical about this, and you don't want to change, that's what you do, but instead it's kind of, what's just all the, and again, the athletes would probably say themselves, maybe they've not been at the level. I think my one kind of last point about this was, say as well, is that like, and a message that really came out from the conversations we've had with people in this last week about this issue, is comes back to the kind of the central idea of meritocracy and sport. Because, you know, and I speak from I self, like, and don't we're wrong? Not that this is an NHA perform often, the reality of what sport is, but the one thing I always, and I think where a lot of people maybe can relate to elite sport, sport at least, is it like, it's one of the few industries in the world where like, if you are good, if you do everything you can, and you get yourself to the highest level you can, you will often be rewarded for that. You know, if you're good, you're good. If you're not, you're not. And that often rings true for athletes, of course, you know, there are different inequalities, there's different barriers and all-rests that sport this. But often, in a lot of, and that often should apply in the same ilk to staff or people who work within organizations. And that's the message that we've kind of felt coming through is that like, in cycling camps at the moment, that isn't the case. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the, yeah, you're obviously right, Johnny, that's one of these things where like, at least sport where I find it so interesting, where like, there's so much more accountability on the athlete than there is on the staff member, where like, you know, the sick, I mean, I've been in a review every three months. It's not quite as aggressive as that, but you are reviewing a three-month basis. And like, the coaches, I've seen time and time again, across the world have not performed, or like, everyone knows that they're bad, and they don't do the job well. And, you know, they're not deserving of the position that they're in, but nothing ever gets done about it, you know, they get to applaud along, and yeah, there's no accountability, there's no risk for them, you know, when they get the paycheck every month, and they're happy, happy as Larry. And I don't know, like, do you feel that from, like, you're sort of, obviously you've worked for an NGB, and not saying the Dutch and cycling's like that, but like, you know, like, from your perspective, how does it feel from the coaches' ends? - Yeah, like, and again, I feel I should caveat this as well, like, as I said earlier, like, working high performance sports as a staff member, often you are doing more than the athletes in a lot of cases, right? - Yeah. - You know, like, you're-- - Big ad, we are a bit advocate for staff members on this podcast, and we should have been at it. - Sure, and a lot of the worse cultures I've seen are staff cultures, or environments I've seen is often that people transplant that idea of working hard as working well. And again, that idea of, like, in high performance sport, you know, again, I'm remembering staff members, really. You know, they'd be doing all this donkey's working, you know, right, well, we actually need you to do this, you know, right, or especially-- - It's a water end, yeah. - Yeah, like what you actually achieved from this. - And especially around coaching, especially when it comes around leadership and strategy and around selections as well, it's like, it is more about working smarts, more about working out, okay, well, in this particular thing in this case, and I can say it's because we were in the exact same position of Belgium, we had feck all money. We really did not, like, our riders weren't paid, you know, even though obviously we paid for riders to go to the races, but they didn't receive a penny from us unless they were certainly. level, yeah, and it was a very high level. It'd be top 8 in the world to even be funded and built. Not going to go into all that. But what it meant is that, yeah, in your strategy, you have to be creative, you have to be, you have to find a way that, also, and again, maybe link it back to I do a said earlier, but that's social contract. I think that's where in a low budget environment, the most important thing you can do in any environment is gain the athletes, trust and belief that what you're selling will lead them to something. Because again, we've seen like, how many times have we seen in our sport, GB, the best funded team in the world, getting trumped by the small, the lesser funded countries, the Denmarks and the Wednesday pursuit or, you know, insert whatever. It's not just about money. It's about what you do with it. But I think go back to original question, though, is it like, isn't it, isn't it, a mere talk, same staff? There's always ways you can maybe kind of build shit a bit, but I think the thing as well is it's like when you're in situations of diminishing results, the attention should also be turned on just as much the coaches as the athletes. You know, and I think that only ever really works if you have an open culture where athletes can also have a voice. And that becomes part of any key review process. You know, you come off, like, yeah, you come off the World Cup in Hong Kong. If I was in that position of like working with that TP team, I'd be sat sitting them down either on the last day of competition or day of competition. You know, and actually going, well, how can we improve this is where we are? This is where we need to be. What can, you know, take the athletes point of view and go, well, what can we do? What can I do? What can whatever supports staff you have to get to this level because we're not there? And that doesn't seem to have happened. It might have happened. As you say, no, the best coaches I've had have been the ones that have like, personally taken my results is also their full responsibility. And like, and that's when you feel like you're in it together and you've got the buy-in from the coach and then you buy and even more. It's the sort of positive feedback loop. And that's how it should be because it is you are in your own partnership, you mean to get to the results that you want. And I guess like finally to talk about like like the actual idea or strategy behind the decision. So I'll give you my take, Johnny, as a noran and GV staff member and then you can perhaps try and put some nuance on it. But how I see it is very short-sighted. I mean, it's almost like a therapy in a lot of ways. It's like, yeah, I want to say somebody now, like actually there's going to be some lot on structural problems that are going to come from this. And like, yeah, they sort of, I think they've thought that they're getting ahead of it by being like, oh, we're going to put a bit more into development, like we're still going to be developing our TP squad. But like what are they developing into? What's going to be waiting for them, you know, when they get to that level? And as we say, the funding, I'll tell you how you're definitely going to lose funding by not having a women's team pursuit performing at any level, you know, because they don't exist. So like, you know, in theory, you lose more funding over time because you've got less programs, potentially performing at a good level. You've also then losing your structure of like, for your female endurance riders of like, well, where do they then go once they've done the development team pursuit. And yeah, it just shows like you cannot hope to have a performance, a middle performance in 2032 without having a team pursuit in 2028. It's not how I like to, I know that the cycle kind of perhaps had some quick success with riders before. But that's not, that's not the sort of, you know, that was the exception to the rule, rather than the rule. I'll be honest, I don't really disagree with anything you're saying. And even trying to kind of provide nuance, it's tricky. Like, don't get me wrong. I think I can see a case for putting money towards development. But you're going to have a plan for that. And any part of that plan communication has to be part of that. That has to be something you've thought through because especially if you're losing something today for the promise of tomorrow, you have to believe that tomorrow's going to come. Yeah, you know, yeah, absolutely. Right now, I just I guess it says seeing the reactions from current riders, previous riders involved in that program, that seems a long way away. Yeah, it's like they might have a strategy, but we bothered on the roll about it, you know, and it doesn't say what the athlete's do either. So like, what does it matter? Yeah. And I think, and I think I would, I'll be honest, having also been in a browns different NGBs, like the ones that have, you know, like I can speak for the Danes when I've seen that they have a clear structure. They have a clear identity. They have a clear strategy in who they want their team to be, not in terms of the riders, but like, what's the sort of person you are a few ride for our team? What is the, you know, what is it that we are aspiring to? There is a strategy and there is an identity that that's built around. And what that means is that then in practice, when things go wrong in the day to day, when they have a bad performance, when things don't quite go the way they want it, because they have that everyone around that table is of the same view and the same vision, or at least, buying into the same thing that you're selling, they can unite and find a route towards that. The opposite is when you have in those daily crisis, I mean, being a bad team, there's been daily crises that, and I won't name the teams, but you know, sometimes when you have staff just reacting from one crisis to the next crisis to the next crisis and muddling an idea of what they want to be. And that works if you have the money, if you have the talent, if you have the things that can mask that performance, if you don't have that, you're fucked. Yeah. And this goes back to the PR thing. It's like, if you do not create the narrative, then you open up into the vacuum and then people fill it with their ideas. Like, if you want to do this properly, you know, barring the process up to the point of ending the program, you also want to come out with, well, what are we going to do? Like, we, we, we admit that we do have a problem with room and team pursuit, they're not at the level. And we want to take a totally new approach to have that success in 2032. This is how we're going to do it. Not just right goodbye to you later. Yeah. And I think one last point that was actually pointed out is that right now, Canada are not on track to qualify for the women's omni in world. So even, even if they're wanting to do that, that might not be possible. And it's also a nation. And I do think as much as, you know, this is performance and this performance sport, I think when you have a country that has almost built itself around 20% it's not just an overnight switch to go to a bunch of race identity. Like, like, I, I can say that because I've been there in Belgium where they have always been bunch racers, they've always been Madison riders. Kind of dabbled a bit in omni, I mean, obviously, they've had some success in recent years, but building it going the other way and building a team pursuit there has been a massive uphill struggle because of that identity. So that's not, and that's not just something you can flick a switch and go cool suddenly where this again, you look at this, their sport, the Germans, great TPers, are their bunch of race racers really there, not really. You know, like, it's not just, it's not just a simple, you never going to focus on this and magically we're going to get results as well. And also for what expertise they're going to lose through this, that's going to hinder the development, that's going to hinder them when they actually maybe get to a place from every podium program and there's time that you lose from doing this, you never get back. And you can't afford to do that in this sport. I mean, yeah. I think if you say like this, this is an evolving situation. Yeah, only yesterday board members stepped down. I don't think this is over. Yeah, I'll be honest, I'd be surprised if this is where this story ends. But yeah, we wanted to kind of come on and give us broad and comprehensive overview, give a bit more in depth nuance. We hope you found that useful. I think maybe just one thing to close with is we do absolutely believe in athlete rights and the ability of athletes to have a voice, to use their voice. And I think that's something that this any any performance program to have true success and sustainable success always needs to take into account the views of athletes and and batten day by end of athletes rather than just doing the right training or riding the right wheels or a different skin suit. That's not going to fix it. But the right sort of environment can. Well, beautiful note to end on. Culture is king, everyone. Culture is king. We hope you enjoyed. If you want to reach out to us and you've been involved in this in please. And if you have any hatred directed personally to lose sture, not the peacety, he'll send me anyway. So it means I don't feel I might you go won't feel blunted. But no, thank you very much for listening. Please, if you have anything, any feedback, do let us know. And we'll be back with some pretty cool interviews in the next few weeks. Thanks for listening to you there. It was goodbye for me. It's goodbye for me. Goodbye.