Episode #50 Bring Fist Fights Back To The Fire House "Do the Job!"

All right. Welcome back, everybody. Episode number 50 with Jeff Kincaid. Remember, these episodes are brought to you by old man copper smoke eater mustache wax. It smells like a freaking house fire. Has he got jobs all day long? Don't forget our new boys in town has guard. They make the best gear bag in the world, we just auctioned one off for the fools. They're amazing products. Both those companies discount code copper C O P P E R go to old man copper will save you 20% has guard 10% help support the show support local companies. These are both run by firemen. I have a privilege to sit down with fire captain suppression officer Jeff Kincaid. He's got 26 years of American fire service. He's also paramedic. We won't hold that against him. He's married six kids. Yeah, you heard the right six kids. He's got nine years active duty air force. He was stationed in Japan for four years. And the last five in Arizona, he was deployed. And I'm sure he'll correct me on this O E F in O I F. He's a third generation fireman. He spent the rest of his time in El Marage fire, which is here in the valley. So Jeff, that miss anything miss pronounced missly the audience or is there anything you want to add to your biome? No, I think you get pretty much nailed it. All right, perfect. So big time episode. We're at number 50, sitting down with Captain Kincaid. He's a copper state fools member. And on top of it, one of my favorite topics. So a little while back, I'm sure most of you guys saw there's a lot of memes go around stickers. But I'll tell you what, the same kind of means something. So it says bring fist fights back to the firehouse. With all that said, we have progressed in the American fire service, especially the last five years for the better guys are more focused on training, we're become more tactical, we're understanding that time is not on our side. And we have to be active, aggressive, efficient, effective, well trained and educated, forward, think of firemen and suppression officers. But with all that said, we've digressed a little bit when it calms down to traditions. And really what we talk about is personalities in the fire service. Now, I am the first one to say that let's not categorize by generations, because I know myself, me and Jeff have right around the same time on the job. He's got a little more than I do. But when we came in a guarantee, the old timer said, there's generation socks. We don't know how to do X Y Z. We are now in the position of saying the same thing. This generations of, you know, there are a bunch of salaries, they can't take hard criticism, everything else. With that said, though, there is a lot of truth to that. So these are our personal opinions. So blanket that out there. But Jeff, man, so let's talk about bring fist fights back to the firehouse. We're not literally talking about it. Sometimes we might want to. I talked to Stephanie White. So she had spent 20 years backstep in the DC Northern Virginia metro area. And she stays her favorite house issues that was because of her captain and her captain was pretty much like, Hey, I don't give a fuck, you be guys going to back apron, do get out, throw blows, come back, shake hands, we're friends, he goes as long as I'm not involved. So kind of leading on that guys appreciate so Jeff, please, man, talk to the audience, tell them what you think about the topic. I know we're kind of like mine, it when we come down to it. But just let's let's talk about the generation, let's talk about the American fire service and let's talk it really about the topic, dude. Yeah, so this topic is, I mean, pretty near dear to my heart, because obviously being a third generation, I've seen that generational change also, right? I watched it push my dad out of the fire service. He was the inability to adapt to that change, you know, where he's calling people right on their ship, like they do something stupid. He's like, what the fuck was that, you idiot? And then they go to HR, you know, he gets wrote up for it, even though they have nurturally made the mistake. Well, that I think I think kind of put us on a trajectory of that, it's kind of a double edged sword, because we're hitting real hard on the mental health stuff, you know, feelings and reaching down the feelings, not subduing all that stuff, you know, being the artillery academy, I wish all those resiliency trainings. And I think it's very important. But you know, your feelings, you want to let up out of the box, be prepared to the actions that comes with it, you know, and I think that back when you and I started, we had that ability to sit around the table, drink coffee and call somebody out on their shit and have that heart to hard conversation, you know, you didn't care if you hurt their feelings, they're gonna hurt your back, sometimes that led to going out back, taking ranks off, just fighting, and then moving on about your day, you know, you have to have that trust in one another to do what we do. And that's, that's extremely important, you know, it goes back to like my military time too, like when I was deployed, there was a frickin' boxing ring at the motor pool, and you know, some people used it for fitness, some people actually were boxers and wanted a box, and some people just needed a hash and shit out, you know, and that's where it got hashed out, and we put a referee in there, it was regulated, but they got to beat the shit out of each other, and then they were good, you know, they say sometimes you got to give violence a chance, you know, and we're not condoning violence, but it's just that whole thought process, the mindset of it, you know, it's like have that conversation, don't talk shit about this person to six other people on his shift, go talk to that person you have a problem with, go hash it out with them, you know, and if that leads to a fist fight, it leads to a fist fight, get over it, some of some of my best friends in life, we fought before we were ever friends, and that just turned into some special trauma bond that we can never get rid of each other ever, you know, so I think it's important that people overlook it and people are too sensitive in this world now to where they are quick to go tell on you instead of handle the problem, there's no accountability, so there's a lack of accountability in their actions, and they want to complain and get you in trouble because they felt wronged. Okay, man, like let's go, like come on, and I think that's a big important part of it, that's what's being lost, you know, and seeing that happen to my dad, that's tough man, watching him actually call people out on their shit, and they get their feelings hurt and taken above them, like that's what we're trying to bring back, yes, is that culture mindset where we can actually have that hard conversation, call somebody out, and you know, and that comes, that comes from the top down, right? I know a lot of chiefs that will agree with us on this. I think one of the guys that originally brought this up, he was a captain or chief and like used it, that made the saying, and you know, I listen to his podcast on the same thing, and it's that same mindset is like, people need to stop being so soft, we're in an alpha-dominated environment, and those energies flow really, really strong in the people that do this job very well, and sometimes that leads to anger, violence, outlastings, et cetera. And then then you got to be an adult about it, and move past it, you know, it's so, so Jeff really, as you're talking, so let me hit on one of the first topics, I'm kind of jotting notes down as you're going, because you're, you're going to spend a lot of things that are close to my heart. So you're, you're talking about feelings on the job to start with. So I see, I see, I see the benefits of both, because, you know, just a quick little story about me, you know, when I joined the fire service in 0506, I thought I had a super power, you know, so I was prior military, just like you, I only did six years active duty, though, but it was, you know, the fire service was very attractive, because it was, you know, what do we hear a lot from candidates that are trying to get into the profession where they miss like, especially the athletes of prior military, hey, the team, right, the team that bought, which is something special that we have in the American fire service. And what I personally am terrified of is if this continues as tried continues, we might lose that, but I also understand like we're kind of where I'm alluding to, I thought I had a super power. So between the military and then all the way up to shoot, I'd say probably, I don't know, five or eight, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, I was able to dump everything. So city ask call, city ask deployment, whatever the case might be, I could bury or problems at home, it didn't matter. I could bury shit so deep that if enough time passed, which I had been doing for so long, it didn't take a lot of time, I could bury it so deep to where I literally forgot about it, to where it didn't happen. And prime example, we'd be sitting at the kitchen table talking about a call or the boys were talking about a call. And they're like, hey, she will remember that. I'm like, no, and like you were on it. I'm like, I was. And they're like, dude, yeah, I'm like, shit, I don't fucking remember because it was some horrific call or whatever. And then through life and trying to mature, getting divorced, trying to work on myself and better myself and everything else, you know, went down that therapy route and was seeking things. And of course, one of the first issues that come up are like, hey, how do you handle stress and trauma and everything else? I'm like, dude, I got to figure it out. You bury that shit and never think about it ever again. And they're like, what? No, you know, that's the worst fucking thing you could say. So through a lot of therapy, you know, I was, you know, I was taught that my coping mechanism, which was unhealthy, you know? And they taught me the healthy version. And I will never forget this till a day I die. The first, I guess, let's just categorize as a traumatic call after going through that process and starting to implement these, you know, these new tools that my therapist gave me. It was, and I hate saying this, it was not a horrific scene. So it was a 962 for the guys that aren't in our region motor vehicle collision. It was a normal day compact hard versus a freaking old school bronco, you know? So all steel versus something that's designed to crunch. They got T-bone. The passenger was she was 13 years old middle school. It was right outside the middle school because they're coming out of the parking lot, right? And there was no blood. The driver was just fine. Got nailed on that passenger side. We're working her, trauma arrest. Found that later. We, you know, feet, feet, get her to the hospital, freaking they call her internal decap. And all the guys on the job know you just, you can't do anything about that. That's just, it's game over. But with all that said, like I said, it wasn't a horrific scene. It bothered me because for some reason, first time ever, my daughter was right around that age, maybe a couple of years younger. This girl had a skateboard and my, my little girl was learning how long board at the time. And for some reason, I put her in that fucking seat and it fucked me up. Diet. So I get off shift. I don't say shit to the guys at work. You know, it's like, hey, we do, we do what we're supposed to do. I was a back step guy at the time. And you know, the captain did, you know, he said, hey, man, everybody cool. And of course, boys, everyone say nothing. You know, I'm not going to fucking say anything. I'm like, yeah, cool, cool, cool. We go on our merry way. Um, I call the therapist in the morning and say, hey, man, I need to come in. They're like, yeah, hey, I will, we'll squeeze you in. I walk through the door and I'm fucking hot. Like, literally, damn, they're kicked the door open by forcefully open the door. And I just start screaming, you motherfuckers ruined my career, my life because I'm like, how am I supposed to do this job? Hide site. I was 100% wrong. But they literally grabbed me and like threw me in a room with like four other dudes were like, okay, Steve, Steve, come down, come down. You know, and then working through that process. So I see the benefit of being able seek help therapy, everything else to learn how to deal with these things. But like you were saying, that double edged sword, the downside to it is outside of those, it's like, well, my feelings do matter. And I hate to say this. And it might be an unpopular belief. I know you're probably aligned with me on this one. But who fucking cares? You know, it is one of those things. It is part of our fucking job. We provide a service to the public and part of our service is seeing and dealing with these nasty freaking situations that the general public cannot deal with. We need tools to be able to effectively deal with this without, and I don't know this answer. And I'm curious, is this where I'm looting to the question without interjecting the, let's talk about everything now. If any idea how we kind of balance that, you know, this, hey, we need to talk about some things, some things you just need to shut the fuck up and listen to your senior member, your senior back step guy or your suppression officer. You know, so I mean, what's Jeff, what's your personal opinion on? Honestly, I, that's a tough one. I mean, I try, most recently, I think one of our guys that we just had an academy that you and I were Wilson, our T.O. Four had a shitty run right out the gate. I mean, shitty run, like just destruction after destruction, you know, GSWs and bad car accidents, trauma codes, you name it, like he went, he went a full gamut for a month, right out of the academy. Yeah, right out of the academy, you know, so you got to just take a little side and that's where being, being the captain, you got to go talk to him, right? Hey, it's okay. Now I went to that resiliency, resiliency training and I can go talk to him before it gets to that anger and before it gets to that, you know, I'll try to be sites specific, like talk specifically about that call of adventures off. And that's where you get those mediators and those people to come in. But, you know, professionals that know what the hell are doing because we obviously don't because you and I are good at burying stuff. Apparently, that's wrong. But yeah, I don't have the answer. But again, like what we're saying is that resiliency training is great and all and it tells us that our feelings matter and our feelings are, you know, we should talk about them, et cetera. But that is a Pandora's box that we're about to open and you get people like you and I that have buried it for 20 years. And now all of a sudden, we're starting to open this box of shit that's been building for 20 years. Angers come in with it, you know, and that it's going to resort back to those outlastings and those those items, you know, and somebody says one wrong thing in the firehouse. It's like, okay, game on. Let's go. I'm curious. So the second kind of the second parts of that, too, because you were talking about we we talked we talked about your military experience, you know, real briefly. Let me just make sure I have this correctly. Was your so your dad was on the job? Was your dad also active duty prior to or no? Yeah, so my my grandpa, it was kind of a weird lineage, right? So my grandpa was an Air Force firefighter. I knew the one you needed to and then my dad was an Air Force firefighter for 20 years retired and then became a civilian firefighter for 22. And then I did the the lot the lesser of the active duty did nine and got out and became a civilian and now my son just skipped the military altogether is going straight to the fire service. So we've we've realized that our lineage is fire, not military. So we've lessened the military side of any stuff. I guess I got you. Well, you you had said initially in your statement, too, like, hey, and you're 100% correct. The fire service is paramilitary. This is kind of been a hot topic lately on a couple of podcasts I've listened to and guys have different opinions on it. So I'll just voice mine. Yes, it's paramilitary for sure. Are we military? Absolutely not. But do we have a rank structure? Yes. Do we have direct orders? Yes. So my opinion, I feel like we should lean at closer to the military side right now, especially for the guys that have never served because again, personal opinion, I believe that rank structure and direction would benefit the newer members coming in because unfortunately you and I, we don't have a lot longer, you know, left in the fire service anywhere between five to 15 more years, maybe, and then we're gone. So again, part of our job, especially as suppression officers, is to make sure when we leave, the next guy coming up through the ranks is ready and hopefully is better than we are. But how do you feel about the paramilitary with the fire service? You know, do you think we should leave more towards you? Happy where we're at? Should we kind of lessen it? To kind of because some guys would be like, hey, man, we're not the military. We should kind of lessen it a little bit to see if this, and again, I hate to use it, but let's just say the, the people that are joining the American fire service now are more apt to learning. If that makes sense, you know, I'm talking about you've been an RTL, you're, you're currently an instructor, so you see it. So what's your opinion on that side? So I think it's very important that we do lean into a military side. We are parallel with them though. So the same issues that we're having, we would they're having as well, right? So one of the reasons that I got out at nine years and didn't make it a career halfway through is that same, that same concept of it got soft. This wasn't the military I joined. That kind of pushed me out and they need to realize this is not what I want to do. We're going to go elsewhere. You know, and then I got on with El Mirage, I was like reinstated to back in that fire service that it was supposed to be, you know, and I was like, okay, but then I watched that change over time as well. So we're on parallel ads, but as far as leaning into the military side of things, rank structures are very important. Our job is inherently dangerous when we get to do it. So there's a reason there's rank structures. So I get off the truck, I tell somebody to do something, fucking do it. It's a dictatorship on the fire ground. And then once you refuse that order, then that's where the fist fights come afterwards, right? And maybe I was wrong, but they pay me to make that decision right or wrong, and I got to own that. You know, maybe we'll figure that out after the fist fight that I was wrong, and I have to apologize. I don't know. But at that time, I'm getting paid to make that decision, do the fucking job. I wish we could quote that more. Like do the fucking job with, and we could blame social media. We could blame COVID, we could blame this generation. We could blame a lot of different things. So like, you know, you know, as well as, you know, most people that follow this podcast, I post a ton of fucking training videos, and I get a lot of fucking shade from a lot of fucking dudes all over the country for zero fucking reason, except for they have a keyboard and they like to talk shit. Why? Again, personal opinion. Why? What? When? How? How the fuck? Let's just leave it that or why? Why do you think that we started transitioning? And it's funny because I got out of the military and shit, I'm going to try to think now. Oh, five, because right after, I was like, then I was like, Oh, god damn, I'm like, all I knew is I did six years active. If I re-enlisted, it would be another four years, 10 years, and you know better than anybody else. What do you have 10 years? You're going to stay. Like, why are you not going to stay at that point? Anybody that comes through the gates over here, and they're like, if they have 10 years or beyond, my first question is, bro, why do you leave? Because we know it's like, what do you get that 10 year mark? It's just common knowledge. It's like, you might as well stay at that point. You have some rank structure. Your job typically gets a little bit easier physically, but yeah, why do you leave? So your personal opinion, you could kind of quote the military in this too. Why do you think that we started transition in this way? Is it because of the laser focus on the mental health side, or do you think it's a society thing? No, I think it's a society thing. I think, you know, obviously, we're not on here condoning bullying. We're not condoning violence. We're saying that it's inevitable, but you took away like those kids that got bullied made stronger people, people that came back and made something of themselves to prove that a chip on their shoulder. They proved something, right? Now everybody's just soft because bullying went away and we gave it the week a megaphone and we silenced the strong. And that made that we're in that flip-flop transition right now. We're seeing it all over the nation, right, with the riots and burning down cities and whatever else they're doing. And the strong is too afraid to do something because they're afraid of the repercussions because of the megaphone that the week are holding. That's what's happening. It's a society thing. It's just trickling to all fingers of the world. Do you think it got just personal opinion? Do you think it got worse after COVID or we were already trending that direction? I think we were already trending that direction. I think COVID made it, I think it made everybody complacent and lazy because, you know, everything got shut down. I don't know how many calls you guys ran, but it was like a ghost town. No, we were afraid to call 911, you know? So it was literally just VT's and movies all day long and we were like, "Oh, we got used to that." And then it was tough to get out of that funk, you know? It took me coming down to the Academy of being an RTO to re-engage me into the fire service because I was just fucking off all day long, you know, which is not good as a leader. So that definitely re-engaged me, re-ignited my fire and got me back out there, and that's a big thing too, like, getting some of these newer captains down there to be RTOs. They can learn a lot on how to lead effectively, especially in leadership that you guys currently have down there. And, you know, you're producing some pretty good RTOs and pretty good recruits out of that Academy. I'll tell you what, it's like if you want to be a better fireman, period the end, like back step to engineer, to suppression officer, even command staff, if you have the chance to be an instructor at an Academy or some sort of setting like that, a college or whatever your region has to offer, I'll tell you what, outside of the additional work, which, you know, I know hands down is more work than any day on shift will ever be, but it makes you a better fireman, period the end. If you're a suppression officer, absolutely makes you a better supervisor on up from there. So if the guys are listening, if you ever get that opportunity, it is, yes, do schedules suck? Yeah, they do. There's a workload, you know, absolutely horrible. Yeah, politics suck. Yeah. But it's, it's a benefit without being selfish. It's a benefit to the individual, but you can take that back to your department and then benefit masses for sure when it comes down to, to that aspect. I'll tell you what, we talk about COVID. I, my personal opinion, I thought it was the best time ever in the American fire service outside of the really weird like, hey, we have to wear a mask. Like every department was different, but it was like some departments like in the back of the cab, you have to wear a freaking N95. If you step a foot in the hospital, you have to have a mask on. Some departments were like, hey, if you're in, in, in the living quarters, like outside of your bunk room, you got, I mean, everybody was all over the place. So outside of that garbage, the call volume guest, we went down dramatically. I would say 75% last calls per shift, but the 25% that we got were freaking awesome. If it was a reported house fire, it was working. If it was a medical, it was legit. It was like, we didn't have the bullshit anymore. Rarely you ran our typical frequent fire and the crazy thing is, I don't know your experience, you know, my experience was like, we go through the gambit, you know, our treatment protocol the whole nine and they're like, all right, man, like, you want us to call an ambulance and get you a hospital? And they're like, fuck, no, ain't got a hospital. It's like, whoa, we didn't want that. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't dying right now, we're like, you're not, not, not right now. Okay. See you guys right here. We're gone. We're like, this is not, I mean, I can't personal thing. I'm like, this is awesome. But you know, I'm like, maybe this is what the old timers felt like when they didn't run the EMS. But so what was outside of like their stratosphere in the movies, like, did you, did you kind of have the same thing when it came down to the exact same? Exactly the same. Yeah. It was the exact same. Yeah. Same experience for us as well. It was legit stuff. People were refusing to call 911 because we could bring COVID into their house, right? So they're isolating themselves. They don't want to get us in there where before they would call us if they burn their finger, get in the pizza out of the oven, that person's not calling us during COVID, right? So it is only legit calls. We go in and this person is barely breathing. You're like, okay, we can do something here like that's, that's important too. Yeah, it was, it was, that was awesome. The, the other part too, and just kind of hit my brain because I forgot about this that I kind of wish we went back to. We had everybody come outside and me just like on the front stoop or something like that. And we, and great. And we have weather in our state that it could be December and it's freaking 60 degrees. You can actually get your ass outside to the part where we, we quote a quote at the COVID chair. It was a freaking folded chair in the very real compartment and it made a call. He grabbed boxes. Hey, you grab the COVID chair, grab that, put it right there. Hey, Mrs. Smith, grandma's markets come here, you know, I don't come here. Sit down. And then we do it. So we didn't have to go in the, with capas, the freaking order conditions, everything. Everyone listening is knows exactly what I'm talking about. But it was just like, man, I'm like, I wish that would maintain the entire time because I feel like half of our nasty exposures are just living conditions that people are, you know, like the for breeze commercial, they're nose blind to half the shit that they live in. We had the ability because the hospitals were so overran they gave us the temporary ability to tell them this isn't a fucking emergency stay home. You know, and then the COVID was over that lifted again and it's like, okay, everybody gets a free ride in the hospital, you know, that it was nice having that ability to go, you're not dying. Stale. Yeah. And there was parameters on that, obviously, but yeah, that was great. This is not an emergency. What do you want for me? So I mean, I know we kind of went off at a tangent about COVID, just to kind of cycle back on topic. So again, like, what Jeff was saying, we're 100% not condoning violence, but what we're trying to interject is around the kitchen table, there should be no reason why I say me and Jeff disagree on something. And I can absolutely say, Hey, Jeff, you're fucking wrong, dude. And he can go right back, Hey, Steve, I disagree. You're fucking wrong. But in the end of the day, we could still be friends for some reason. I feel like today's day and age, we have that conversation to different individuals because we have a good relationship, but two different individuals, all of a sudden, I will never talk into Jeff again, Jeff is never talking to me again because we have, we both have these heart feelings. Like we're in the world of that come from that's why I'm really trying to figure out because like you said, the kitchen table is our therapy is our family and it should be where we're able to check ourselves. We're outside the view of the public. We're within our four walls are, quote unquote, safe space. Why can't, why the fuck can't we have those conversations? Yeah, well, and I just heard a story today about my department, right? One guy was going to get his food out of the fridge and it wasn't labeled or anything. It was just a bowl of rice cooked rice in the back of the fridge and they cleaned the fridge up. It got thrown away on accident. He comes out, asked him where it was. He was like, Oh, was that yours in the back of the fridge? My bad. I threw it out. I thought it was old. He eats the tray of vegetables and stuff for the rest of everybody's dinner and starts getting in his face and starts yelling at him and trying to intimidate him. I'm like, leadership was in the kitchen and nothing, nothing is getting broke up. Nothing's happening. Nothing, I'm like, that's where the fist fight happens. Like that's where we settle that. There's obviously some built up aggressions that was building way before this certain incident, right? The situation should have happened already. Well, now we're at that point. This point is where the fist fight happens and it gets over their shit and get all their aggression out. They fucking come up with a solution and then they move past it. That's what we're talking about, right? Because I don't know if I could have been able to hold myself back if that thing would have at the same situation would happen to me. Yeah. I mean, I have a great story that kind of like comes with that. Like we had, I don't know, several years ago, we had a working house fire. We're interior, right? It's in the garage. It's extending into the house, we're in the house. I am looking for a freaking. I can hook right because I'm on the engine that day I got to freaking my crew with the knob and I'm like Hey, man, polka Hall up here and all I see is because visibility is not zero, but it's crap, right? All I see is a silhouette of a fireman, but I could tell he's holding a freaking hook So I'm like, hey you you know, and we run in a system where we run with so many different cities ends up being one of our guys I had no clue and I'm going hey fucking hook that and he's all like what right? I said pull that fucking ceiling down because again We're on a fireground right now. We're no, please no, thank you. He's like I need this stuff right now And he's all like What am I and get to the point where I'm like I go to grab the hook I said give it to me then like I'm gonna fucking do it right and he pulls back I'm like pull that fucking ceiling down then and he refuses. I'm like stop being a bitch then give me the freaking hook at this point My captain comes in because I'm still back step comes in because they hear this going on In an active firefight and the guys that know me. I'm loud as it is anyway on a fireground I'm louder to come around like what the hell is going on and basically they're like do you call on the bitch? And I'm like yeah, like why'd you do that was like because he's being a bitch is 100% wrong on my end, but guess what I did after the call I'm still a little heated. I give myself the time to cool off. I call the guy the next day and go dude You know what my bad. I'm like first of all I didn't know is you know it was one of us It shouldn't matter if it was you know one of the guys from my department or another it should not matter But I'm like do first of all didn't know is one of us second of all I was in the wrong I'm like I needed this done it wasn't happening you weren't understanding it was a breakdown of communication But like you said it was a heated conversation and then I had the balls afterwards would be like dude my bad I was 100% wrong on that and guess what? We're we're still buddies because we had he was a senior member You know, I have a lot of years on the job also and he understood because you came from the same lineage that we did Unfortunately that doesn't happen anymore, but we should be allowed to do that We should be allowed to have a bad fucking day maybe say something that Is inappropriate at the time as long as it's outside the public's view you know or or ears and then be able to be Hey, man next tour next shift or the next day maybe just make a phone call real quick and be like hey, dude You know even if I don't believe I'm wrong at that point I should pick up the phone anyway and be like hey, dude Let me just explain myself Give him a chance to explain himself and it should for the guys listening should be that fucking easy That's how it is you don't need to be an officer. You don't need to be 20 years on job You can have a day on as a back step guy talking to do with 20 years on and be able to have that conversation You should and unfortunately, I feel like you can't in today's day and age because of the repercussions because of the complaints They go all the way up with lawsuits and HR and all the other bullshit and I just can't figure out how to How we can do that hard reset, you know like always joke around like um, you know go back to direct TV back in the day You know just they did you unplug it for 20 seconds and plug you back in yeah, I did that's why I'm calling you That shit damn work, right? Well, we should be allowed on plug ourselves, you know for 24 hours plug back in and be like all right Now I'm thinking clear now, and you know, let me let me let me figure out what you know what the root of the problem really was and the root was is I was frustrated during active firefight that I had to repeatedly ask for a task that I felt like was needed What I didn't know is his officer Had given him a different order. I am fucking know that we're in two completely different crews. So again hundreds of my back But you know, you got to be able to admit that even that type A personality which we all should be you know We have to admit when we're fucking wrong when we are wrong And that's a big one right having accountability so communication open conversation like the hard conversation and accountability So what if I'm wrong? I'm gonna be accountable for it if you're wrong. I'm expecting you to be accountable for it, right? But we're not going to know that we're wrong until you we're told we're doing something wrong also So that's part of it and I I venture to say like if you were to talk to You know an old school age our person That has had to manage firefighters or cops even for that matter because they have similar personalities that How many complaints came across their desk during the 80s and 90s right versus now The shit was handled in house then, you know, we called it wall-to-wall counseling you grab somebody you went wall-to-wall I've never heard that terminology before I love it though. I'm still there Yeah, wall-to-wall counseling. So, you know, there's a lot less stuff because we didn't air our dirty laundry out You know, we handled it and and I think that it we have to be accountable as leaders in the fire service also, right? Somebody comes into my office talking shit about somebody that I had nothing to do with It's my job To tell them to turn their ass around and go fucking handle it with that person Right, if you need a mediator call me or call somebody else, but I said you come in and you to talk to me about it That's a formal complaint. I'm a supervisor now. It's in my hands. I have to go do something about it And my path isn't the path I want to do Um, I'd rather them handling it. It's a lot easier for me anyway if they just go handling You know, I'll tell you what like we had so we had side joy you know side joy from The Valley so we did an entire episode a couple episodes back on the senior fireman and he had he had said something that holds true Like and again, he's a suppression officer just like us Um, he goes if we still had what and again his opinion and I agree with that a hundred percent If we still had that senior dog that senior fireman the guy that wants to be the 30-year back step dude That unfortunately we've kind of lost Uh through attrition culture whatever it might be there's there's multiple different reasons in in our region Um, why we lost that senior guy, but you hit the nail in the head like once it goes to the suppression officer's desk You said yours they're a supervisor. Where's supervisor now something has to be done So it's like handle it before you involve your suppression officer because Again, we vote we said it from day one handle everything at the lowest level possible But in today's day and age that doesn't hold true anymore You'll have a guy leap frog from the back step all the way up to maybe even damn near the ops chief or the chief Because and skips all the steps in between and then of course Hell is coming down at that point because no one's in the loop. So everyone's pissed off I and again, I wish we could figure out a way to interject or because it's not even a training thing It's a culture thing how to interject that culture into the new American fire service to kind of bring that back Um, and I don't know how to do it. So my I guess my question for you is I know you run a tight ship I know you love the job and you're into it. So for Just you personally how do you And I don't I don't know your culture in your department um like I know mine And I don't know how you guys if you're if you have a lot of rovers that come in and out or if you typically have kind of like the set Number guys, but if you were to transfer or say you're brand new on that shift or that station What are you telling your guys day one to hopefully kind of negate the negatives that we were just talking about in In today's society or at least how to get those Anywhere between four to ten guys depend on how big your house is how do you get them aligned with What you believe as as a captain of the house So uh, that's That's big is your expectation sock and mine is really short and sweet for I start with their expectations of me Hey, what are your expectations of me as a as your leader? I will give you the world. I just need to know what to give you right whether it's training Or education or you know, whatever Um, and then I'll go into mine because mine is short and sweet One don't make me look like an idiot So that that's the big expectation um to if you handle everything on the lowest level and make sure you use your chain and command appropriately Um, and three if you have a problem with somebody take it up with that person I don't want rumors. I don't deal with rumors. I'm not good with rumors like I will call you all into a room and make you hash that shit out Um, I well, I don't Do well with that because it's just Dangerous. It's contagious. And then it it blossoms into this environment that we don't want um So yeah, it's that's pretty much it um my expectations are pretty simple Like I want you to be the best of your job You'll never meet my expectations because I'll always move the goal post as soon as you get close to achieving expectations And I gave you and then we're gonna move it because we're gonna continue to get better Um, so don't say that that's a failure. It's not a fault that you're never reaching the goal I'm just you're doing that well that I keep moving the goal So uh, those are pretty much that's pretty much it So with your with your expectations I'm just curious on on kind of how you how you align yourself if you have let's say overtime guys Um brand new brand new guys are easy. Let's say an overtime guy like an old salty dog that either you've never worked with or it's been a hot minute Let's just say it's been a couple years Um, do you have it? Let's just say you it has been a couple years. You've worked with them before you know who they are um Do you have that expectation talk if they're just there for let's say they're just there for 24 hours or yeah, you have to I feel like you have to If they haven't met your expectations, I'm a big believer in second chances of forgiveness. If I haven't worked with this person for four years, they could have grown and developed being under somebody else in that time frame. So I'm not going to cast judgment on how I knew them four years ago. I'm going to let them prove themselves again, but I'm going to give them that expectation of, hey, last time we worked together wasn't so pleasant. I'm expecting something a little bit better this time. So they, they should know the expectations of the department and the job, right? Because they're seasoned, they're just roving in. But I don't want you to cause any turmoil. We don't want to hear about any turmoil from your shift. On our shift, like I don't want any shift words beginning, we're just going to do our job and have a good time while we do it. Now, when you start talking about shifts, because that, that is a big thing. I mean, we're on the topic of, and basically internal customer service. That's what we're talking about really if we, we talked about modern day verbiage, right? That's all we're talking about is, um, how, how do you negate exactly what you just said? Because that's an issue across the country, um, shift issues. So, hey, man, A, B, C, D, however many shifts your department has, I guarantee it's like, all right, A shift doesn't like B shift, B shift doesn't like C shift, C shift hates D shift, whatever the case might be on your shift. How do you negate if you can, especially for your house, how do you negate that be the intertwines between, hey, and I'll give you just an example. I'm going to put you on a shift so you're relieving C shift in a, you know, and your gosh, you're like, God damn it. Every single time C shift takes a fucking rice cooker that's got this much rice left in it. They put the entire cooker in the fucking fridge and it's driving your fucking guys crazy. And you and I both know it's, it's a, it's a big deal or a fucking little deal. It's a fucking little deal. But how do you negate those guys because you said it, it's contagious and it could ruin a house. How do you negate those, those personality quirks that we're all going to face no matter what, especially in the supervisor role or that senior fireman? So I let it ride for a bit and see like if I hear my guys talking about I go, have you talked to them yet? If the answer's no, then you need to fucking talk to them. And then if the answer's yes, okay, cool, then I'll elevate it and I'll go talk to Captain on that shift and go, hey, we've got some issues. Here's the issue. I've done with it. Fucking fix it. And that's as simple as I can put it. Yeah, it is fucking simple. And the crazy thing is it's in trying to prove a point that all this is extremely simple. It comes down to typically just communicating because I believe that most of our issues is because of a lack of communication because it's like, hey, I want to say anything because I'm pissed off or whatever the case might be. And then it builds because next tour, it's the same thing, tour after that. It's the same thing. And then before you know it, you know, now they're saying the fucking shift, whatever sucks ass, these guys are fucking, you know, firefire Smith is a fucking load. And then before you know it, the entire group is there. It's that, what's the herd mentality we're talking about? It only takes one to then everyone jumps in on it. So I love what you're saying. It's fucking simple. And to add to that, for our system, we deal daily with other departments also. So it's same shift, but different department, it's the same concept. And that's why you say when people jump, we'll run into a different city, they'll have an issue with us. So instead of talking to us about the issue they have, they go to their EMS chief, and that EMS chief calls REMS chief, and then that comes down that way. And that's never good for anybody. So you could have definitely called me. You could have come by the station after you'd transported that patient. We could have had a fucking conversation about it, but instead you wanted to go cry to your EMS chief and try to hem us up, you know, like, I don't know about that. That's where we need to have those conversations. So it's again, in our unique world, we have that shift, right, issue. You have different truck issues within your city. You have our automatic aid system because we're dealing with them regularly. So it's definitely a multifaceted environment that we, it's ever changing and confusing. And it's sometimes tough to navigate. There's a lot of personalities in there. Yeah, and I mean, I've found it where, you know, again, we work in the same system. And I'll just blanket it with, we run with Big Red a lot. And you know exactly who I'm talking about. So there is, there is plenty of areas. So the station I was at prior to being assigned to the academy, we were right on the border with Big Red. And it's funny because there is this neighborhood that on medical calls, we were first doing on. So as Susan called came in, we got popped a hundred percent of the time, unless we were on a call, then Big Red got popped for the same freaking call. If it was a fire, though, of course, we're all getting popped on it. And they would beat us in religiously every single time by about 20, 30 seconds. Because it's, and again, it's just how it works. It was an issue with my, with my crew for a long time. We had the benefit of, we ran a good job in that neighborhood. I'm talking about that we had been that we go to a thousand times for medical calls that they're never at. And it's, it's officially in their city also, but we catch a fucking job. And again, they're in front of us. You can see the tailboard can also see the header. It's like, all right. So instead of complaining about it, what I do is I get on the radio because I've been to that neighborhood a thousand fucking times. There are townhouses. There's only room for one wagon to fit right up front. It's got the covered parking on the side and there's pretty much a drive through. So I just get on the radio, state my engine to their engine. I'm like, hey, you take the drive, we'll lay into you when we, when we establish water, we'll pull a second, or pull a second attack line and back you up. Ever since then, it was just like it changed their attitude towards us because they realized we're like, hey, we're on the same fucking team, you know, and it took, it took a job for them to realize that and it took, you know, a suppression officer and I was just lucky enough to be in the seat that day, that time, to give them that bone to be like, hey, shit, we're not against each other, you know, yes, we work for different departments, but we're on the same team when the fucking tones drop and I wish the rest of the country worked like we did. But I'm curious if you have a different outline or a different way to kind of solve those issues, especially when we start talking about running with different cities within our borders or even go into their borders and then try to figure out how to operate together to accomplish that one goal, which is, hey, make grabs and fucking put fire out, period of the end. I mean, I think it's still the same, right, is he still have to have that, that talk with those people. He's still got to call them on their stuff and have those difficult conversations like, you know, we had some neighbors of ours that we should run into regularly and we had a young captain with a bunch of old season motherfuckers on the rest of the truck and you know they ran that truck, captain was literally sitting, he's sitting in that seat and that's it. Everybody else has their say and so they would, we would get messages that are here all the time. Hey, sorry, didn't hear it. Sorry, didn't see that. Hey, are we closer to that call? Oh, we're not. Okay. Cool. Like stop playing the are we closer game? Dude, it's your fucking first two. We'll just take it from us. So eventually I got tired of it and we drove over to the station and I was like, I didn't talk to you and we had a conversation and that conversation ended up well and I think he remembers that conversation now he's promoted and he holds his guys responsible that's accountable for that same action that I held him accountable for and now they that without question they're taking calls that they're available they take calls for us when we're in route to their first deal all the time and it's very appreciative of us, you know, like not saying we don't want to run calls, but let's, you know, keep the trucks where they're supposed to be because once we play that miracle around like we're in the the Bermuda Triangle, like the busiest stations of three cities and it's just a round robin all day long and once one truck goes in, another one's coming into our city and another one's going into that city and now we don't see our first dues all day long. So let's just try to keep the system intact if we can, you know, stop playing that game and they didn't know, you know, I mean, he was a fairly new captain of the time and didn't really know that it was bothering us because again, I go, it goes back to you don't know you're doing something wrong until you're told you're doing something wrong. And so I was the one that told him to do something wrong, it was fixed without question without issue, we're still really close. So there was no damage to the relationship or anything, we're good and it worked out and everybody's benefit and we're not there because we're doing one of the busiest trucks in the valley. Well, I mean, hopefully guys are understanding what we're trying to lay down for them right now. It was, it's again, that's a tough conversation outside of our walls, but within our brothers because we're all brothers, right? So and again, please understand though, you have that conversation with that suppression officer and that crew, understand that when transfer season comes around where people put their papers in, you might, you might have to have that conversation again. Hey, everything's good for the last eight months and all of a sudden things are going sideways again. You're like one in the world. I bet you if you look at who's on the truck that day, you're like, shit, I'll know that name. Well, I'll know that guy or that's not the guy that is normally there. And then again, you have to have that. conversation again. But again, it was the same deal. It was one of our stations right on the border with another city. And it was the same bullshit over and over and over again messages, messages, messages to point where he did exactly what you did. And it solved the issue for about two years. And then that suppression officer left and it went back to how it was. And guess what you had to do. He had to do it all over again. But he wasn't discouraged. And that's what we're trying to get across to the guys like, Hey, man, we have to have these tough conversations with each other to be better for the fucking public because in all reality, that's the only reason we fucking exist. The only reason why we're not going to be replaced by robots in the future AI is because no one can do the job that we do. But it's going to be fucking miserable if we don't play nights with the guys around us. And this is the best job in the world. So why? Why in the world will we want to fucking make it miserable for ourselves by holding on to these grudges? Again, my personal opinion, it doesn't, it shouldn't, it shouldn't even be a topic. It should just be natural. But that's why we're talking about because we want to start educating guys. We want them to start transitioning. Again, more old school when it comes down to traditions and how we handle our guys and the partners that we run with. But it's, it's just one of those things that I guarantee you in 50 years from now, there's be two other fucking shmows on whatever kind of freaking headset virtual fucking holograms podcasts, whatever they're going to call it, having the same goddamn conversation we're having right now. And it's just rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. You talk to the old timers, they had the same issues we had now. They just handled it a little bit different because they were allowed to say, hey, stop being a fucking pussy. And they, and they handled it for, for themselves. But as you're kind of saying, like to remember back to the fist lights in the firehouse, it is again, like we, everything needs to be a knockout. Your conversations need to be a knockout. Never leave it to the fucking judges. More importantly, when you have those tough conversations, you'll be surprised nine out of 10 times. It's not every time guaranteed. But nine out 10 times, like Jeff will say an earlier, you'll probably end up building a closer relationship with that individual because you're earning their respect and vice versa compared to just highway. You will I guarantee you run into that 10%. They don't care. You know, they're going to hold a grudge. They're going to hate you. And it doesn't matter what you say, what you do is just how they are. And that's in your department, my department, New York City, Chicago, fucking New Hampshire, you name it. It's all over the country. So I feel like it would just with everything else too. If you want to force a door, how do you get good at it? You fucking practice. It's the same concept. The more times you have these tough conversations, the easier they get. And they're no longer tough conversations. It's just you holding people accountable. And that's what I think people are so afraid of hurting somebody's feelings. We'll get past that. And the first time you do it and you see a positive outcome, it gives you hope that the next time you do it, it's the same type of outcome. But then you have to reciprocate it. Remember that those conversations, if somebody has that with you, you got to be open minded and be like, okay, I fucked up by bad. And that accountability factor comes into to play there to make it a positive outcome. On both sides, somebody's wronged. There's a wrong door. Somebody just called on it. You have to have accountability of it. Apologize and move on. That's how we get through that. And again, sometimes it leads to fist fights when we have to be okay with that. Because our job is inherently dangerous. We want those strong hormones fueled alphas out there making grabs. And that comes with the price of Pandora's Box and anger and fist fights and screaming matches. And you know, I mean, I saw a really cool video of your family one time. And you know, they're loud and obnoxious and stuff. I can imagine like, if families fight, you know, but we're still family at the end of the day, right? So not everything's all rainbows and unicorns. We got to be able to have those self conversations, have a fight, and then love each other afterwards and press on. You know, don't hold grudges. Be an adult about it. Yeah. And I mean, in all reality, and again, I'm trying to respect your time too, but it's such a good topic. But in all reality, if if you're not happy with your culture, or if you're, if you're resonating with what we're talking about with the new guys coming in, whatever the case might be, it's, it's on us. So everyone listening, it's on you to change it. So the only way to make the effective change, the easiest way is your brand new guys that come to their house that are on probation, teach them the right way. And as long as you hone them in, because they're not going to get a little bit of the academy, depending on what academy they go to, and then it's really they're going to get the culture when they get to their department and their house and figure it out from there. So if you're unhappy, teach the guys how it should be and ideally five years from now, when they're the senior firemen because across the country, we're all higher and like freaking gangbusters. So there could be a senior firemen rapidly. Hopefully, they take what you taught them, interject that in the next new guy, and then it just keeps going and going and going. And then before you know it, unfortunately, and they say it all the time, like, hey, you plan to tree for the shade for the next guys. We're never going to see it. But that's what you have to do. You know, it's not about us. It's about them. And when I say them, I mean, the fucking fire service. So if you're unhappy with your situation, start changing it with the new guys. That's the easiest route to go and build them up. Like, I've actually heard from my department, which is and it's probably a bash, but I take as a compliment. I think it's funny as hell, but they're like, hey, man, you're building a small army. And I'm like, damn, right, I am. And it's not an army of rebellion. It's an army of tradition and respect for the fucking job. And that's what it comes down to. That's the only reason why I'm in the position I'm in now and why I put my hand up interviewed and screamed and begged to come here for the worst schedule ever to donate as much time as I possibly can and to take a lot of time away from my family because I feel like it's very important. And I have a greater reach than I do in a firehouse when I'm only being able to affect four to 10 to 12 guys depend on the side of the house. But if you can affect four dudes, that trickle down effect is massive down the line. You're just not going to see it. So don't get fucking discouraged. That's that's the message I'm trying to bring home to the list. Well, and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter your it doesn't matter your rank either. Everybody's responsible for their own areas. You know, stay in your lane and make sure your lane is tighting, you know, and and try to not allow lanes to merge unless they have to. So, you know, as a captain, I shouldn't be going to the tie-in chief every fucking day or every time I have a problem. You know, I got to look at me and I got to handle that problem and I got to work on the problems below me. Like the other day, we had this things you see in your firefighter who was pretty junior, you know, asked if he was kind of coming out freaking out about daily chore. We got him out the floor, we got any trash and we got to do this, we got to do that. And it's kind of early in the day, he just want to get it done. You know, and it's kind of spun up about it and our junior slash senior, well, bow. We'll just call him out. But I was like, hey, what have you done to better yourself in your career today? I was like, well, I can great answer. I love fucking bow, man. By the way, this is both floor. We'll call him out, right? You know, yeah, we'll call him out. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, he that was his response to it. It's like, hey, calm down, dude. What have you done to better yourself in your job? Like, let's go train. Let's go force a door. Let's go do so. Let's get to spun up on that before we worry about mopping the floors. And he's got my full support on that. Yeah. If you haven't done anything to train and make yourself better, I don't care that the floors will get to those. You didn't, you know, we won't see somebody die in a house fire because our floor was dirty. Like, or, you know, Uncle Bruno always said, you never see a house burned down because of a dirty fire truck. So my dad, yeah, or a proper uniform, I mean, he hadn't, you know, and you can, you can love Chief Bruno so you can hand him, it doesn't matter. He has a lot of actually today. So today is the seventh or no, no, the first Jesus Christ, my watch is backwards, right? It fucks me up every time. June first, fiscal year, everyone should fucking know because we actually have money again. But with, with all that said, it's like, he has a lot of good messages. I just posted one today, which I never seen it. Yes, I never heard that video before until one of my deputies, we were just talking about something, he's all like, yeah, it's like the chainsaw video. And literally me and my cohort Dave Colson are going, what? And he had never seen it either, which I'm like, oh, thank God, I'm not the only one. So he pulls it up. And I'm like, son of a bitch. So sure, shit, I'm like, all right, let me download that, you can't fucking download it. So I'm like, let me just try to figure out screen record. I'm like, this is a fucking important message I want to share. Yeah, absolutely. The guys that didn't get to see it, he's like, hey, you got the old senior dog 20 plus years and he's pissed off at the young guy coming in saying this kid doesn't know how to fucking operate a chainsaw. And then chief goes, well, did you teach him? Did you train him? Or he goes like, or what you got to do about that? And the guys like, well, I guess I could train him. He's like, imagine if we did that, you know, and it's such a simple fucking message, but he's 100% right for some reason. And we see it a lot lately. And I don't know where it came from. And it should be the opposite because we know what we're getting. We're getting less candidates to apply for our positions. And we have more positions open than we ever have in the entire history in America. can fire service from what I know of. But for some reason, on day one, on probation, the guys expect them to be fucking 20 year dudes. Perfect. Right out the gate. And you're like, no, they barely know the fundamentals where they really learn is from guys like Jeff, as Susie came on the truck and say, all right, dude, I understand. Congratulations. You're on the job. You're not a fireman yet. And we've, we've talked about that extensively. You're a firefighter. You know, we will tell you when you're a fireman. That's a different thing. Like, you don't get certificate. This is fireman. You get certificate. When you graduate to academy or your college, it says firefighter, the guys, you know, the crew decides when you're man. And the only way to figure that out is when you prove yourself. If you're lucky enough, you prove yourself rapidly. Sometimes it takes a little bit longer. But it's one that's, it's again, like the guys listening. Remember, these guys coming in are green as fuck. Super fucking green. They didn't ride for five to seven years. They didn't apply for 20 different departments and got nose across the board. We got guys that got their EMT. And three months later, they're in the fire academy. They never spent a day on an Ambo. They never did a single ride along. And it's not their fault. They're literally 18 or 19 years old. And they just graduate a high school. And this is they might have worked at Domino's. They might have done nothing. You know, we had we had moms bring recruits lunches and the academy. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Come on. Why have I never heard to stop it? That is amazing. I would be like, oh, yeah. No, I'd be like, I would be like mom, come with me real quick. It was like day one or last my last academy down there. Somebody, somebody's mom brought him a lunch. That is so good. I wish I knew that the only one I've ever seen was somebody on day one door. It was day two because day one, we told them, hey, you don't leave campus for lunch. Make sure you pack your lunch. We always sound like good ideas or whatever. Bring lots of snacks. You know, you know, you know the drill. And I'll never, we got a call from security going. We got door dash from Chipotle. That was one of ours too. It was the same class. Okay. Forever. And I'm like, I'll be right there. You know, it's like, come out. I'm like, what the fuck is this? Hold on the bag. And the funny thing is at the end as a gag gift, I got like a $10 gift card to Chipotle or whatever because I was the one that we're good. But it was, it was great. But again, they didn't fucking know any better because we told them, hey, man, you can't leave for lunch. So what does that kid probably do his entire life? Hey, man, I'm good door dash. You and I that's just that didn't exist back in the day. So it's just it's something that we do, you know, but that's that's that's their world. And I hate to say it. I really hate saying this, but we have to adapt to that because that's a that's a future. So we have to figure out how to instill our core values into the new fire service to make sure that again, we it's a key phrase, but it's true that it's better than when we fucking when we leave it. You know, then when we found it, but it's it's 100% true. That's yeah. And I think that it's a it should be a negotiation. So we'll adapt to your ways as long as you adapt to ours also, you know, we meet in the middle. And that's that, you know, you're going to hand, you're going to handle everything in house. Okay. And by that, I will start adapting to your ways of things and try to understand you as long as you start to understand me. But the moment that trust line is broken, then we got to start working on repairing that. You know, on either side. Dude, I love it. All right. So listen, we're we're an hour in. So before we transition to the questions for the end of the episode, is there anything you want to leave the audience with on on the topic? When it and I know we kind of went all over the place, but it really we're talking about culture is really what we're talking about. Is there anything you want to leave the audience with? Especially for let's just say the 10 year guide, because I feel like the 10 year guys struggling the most because they're either looking at promoting to suppression officer or pop operator slash engineer, whatever you call it in your system, you know, or they're going, hey, man, I'm finally on a good truck, good engine, whatever it is. And I'm the senior guy. And, you know, I'll use my boy Kevin Weiss, for example, he wants to be a back set fireman for the rest of his life. He should be a suppression officer 100% by respect wholeheartedly his, his wishes. But what do you say to that guy that's kind in the middle on how to progress, you know, the fire department to be because he's got another 15 20 years left, most like. Yeah. So my big philosophy is a senior firefighter isn't just because you're the oldest guy or the most 10 year person on the truck. That's an earned benefit that your crew gives you. That's it. You earn that out of respect and leadership and mentorship and being a leader in a non-leadership role. That's how you get that. So focus on that. Be that person, you know, always strive for excellence, strive for the training, reach out like, I mean, the fools. Now that we're all over the valley, it's a lot easier for all the departments to get there. But focus on that training. Go to the fire school. Go do what you can to better your career and then share that knowledge with the people around you and earn that title. That's that's what I would say. I love it. So we didn't get chance to cover it. So that's just covering now the why. So you are a third generation. You have a fourth generation. I don't even know if he lives in your house or whatever, but no good for him. So yeah, you are you're steeped in the American fire service from Grandpa all the way down to your boy. But why? Why did Jeff concade decide? I know you were a fireman in the Air Force, but why do you decide? Hey, I want to be a fireman in the civilian world and do this for a career for the rest of my life. So I still have the piece of paper. Well, I was, I think, seven years old, you know, on the big easel paper that says when I grew up, I'll be a firefighter like my dad. Actually, it's a fireman career. I'm saying that back then, right? It says I want to be a fireman like my dad. You know, and that held true like because that, I don't know, that upbringing of, you know, spending holidays and birthdays and whatnot at the firehouse is special. The bond that you have with the family, which I think is lackluster nowadays, too. But like we used to go to the lake all the time, like all of them bought boats that they couldn't afford, you know, and I grew up with all the kids of my dad's co-workers and we'd be at the lake camping and that shit right there is what sold me on it and said, I want to do this. Well, you know, after high school, my path could be easier to, well, to a straight path in the fire service. So I decided to join the military to straighten myself out knowing what I wanted, but I didn't know how to get it. And that gave me all the discipline and everything that I needed to go achieve my goal. So my goal was always to be a civilian firefighter. I just didn't know how to achieve it with the life choices I was making. So the military straighten me out and put me back on course. That's awesome. So we, oh, sorry, yeah. So we know why. So we got to why down one of my favorite questions because and we've been talking about it the entire episode really traditions. So, but I'll put you on a spot. So what's your favorite? And I'll blanket this American fire service tradition. So it could be your department. It could be our region. It could be anywhere in the country, but more importantly, why? Why do you love this tradition so much? I believe that my favorite tradition would have to be the honor guard of pipes and drums. I mean, I love it. Hands down. That tradition is still very like very guarded by the fire service. It hasn't been infiltrated. They still do that job day in and day out without like everything's volunteer. Like there's some departments that are on a target's pay to do things, you know, like OCFA, their pipes and drums band is, I mean, they, they, they're on band, you know, but these guys we volunteer our time. We go all over Colorado Springs, you know, back to Maryland, to duty ceremonies, to to pay tribute to the people who gave the ultimate sacrifice, put those names on the board forever, you know, so they're forever remembered. Some of my greatest memories in the fire service are honor guard on pipes and drums memories. You know, I remember sitting at the wall in Colorado Springs with a dude from Yonkers, he's a piper and we sat there and cried next to that wall for like a fucking hour. He was telling stories, you know, I was telling stories about me being deployed because of 9/11 and him telling me, point out all these names of, oh, you know, I grew up next to this kid. I went to high school with this kid. This kid and this kid, we were in the academy together and, you know, shit like that. Like, I feel like that's the most reserved and untouched tradition of fire service. Hasn't been insulted. It's very protected. I absolutely love it and you're right. That's probably the best way and I've never heard anybody explain it the way you just did saying it's protected and I agree it is. And I mean, I had, you know, Garrett Baker, I had Garrett Baker because he's a piper and it was funny because we were literally talking one day. He just came back from and he talks about his episode from Georgia for St. Paddy's Day, which is the largest St. Paddy's Day in the Country, which all of us were like, George, you know that? episode either. Yeah. I'm like, wait, you know, we're like, and so if you guys don't know, listen to Garrett Baker, the piper, right? He'll explain everything. It's, it's so fucking interesting. But literally he came back and was just talking about the history of the pipes, what they did in Georgia, everything else. And I'm like, and I'm just amazed. And I'm going, do we need to sit down and do an episode? He's like, with me now. And I'm like, yes, 100% because exactly what you said, it is the, and I know cops have pipers and a band and everything else. Different countries do the whole nine. But I, I believe I could be dead wrong. But I know my friends, my family, the people I associate with, everyone, as soon as they hear the bag start to be inflated because there's a very distinct sound to it. Before they even start playing, it is, that's the American fire service, right? To me, it's goosebumps immediately. You know, it's either it's, it's prider sadness. Unfortunately, most of the time it's sadness, especially lately, the last couple of years in the valley, we've, we've unfortunately buried a lot of, I live three of our brothers in the last, in my department over the last year. And it's, but it's, that is, you can't say it better. It's so guarded and it's so fucking special. And shame on us. If that ever gets infiltrated, like that is, that's our fault. Like we need to, out of anything, we need to protect that the most because exactly what you said, this job is inherently dangerous. We all raise our hand and say we will make the ultimate sacrifice for a fucking stranger that we do not know. And the fact that we're going to leave, example for you, your wife and six fucking kids without dad and husband. And you're willing to do that because this is our fucking calling. And it's important. Um, no one else, no one else has that. The military does, but they don't have it prolonged for as many years as we do. So it's, it is extremely special. So do that is a fucking great answer. And I could be wrong. By I think 50 episodes, no one has said the pipes and drums yet, which is, which is awesome. And even if they did, they did not explain it as well as well as you did. I know for a fact, Garrett Baker did not say that for a saver tradition because he even said, all right, you guys think I'm going to say pipes and drums. I'm like, yeah, yeah, he's like, nope, you know, he went off on his tangent, but dude, it's great. So, all right. So we know the why we know why you joined the American fire service. We know your favorite tradition. So let's get to the favorite question. So I'm going to promote you, right? You're already suppression officer. Now I'm going to make you the commissioner of the world, fire chief of the fucking universe. And on top of that, I'm going to give you that one wish. The wishes you get to change anything in the American fire service, instant gratification, zero sweat equity. So it happens right now. So that's either adding, deleting, moving, whatever you want to do. What are you changing? But more importantly, why? Why are you doing it? Oh, cool. I think I would do the boxing ring. I think we should get rid of. Or is that going to be like a severed every station? Yeah. I mean, we could do it, like, you know, like put up one centralized station, you call somebody out, trucks show up, handle their business, and move about the, you know, feel free to roam about cabin. Now just get rid of the, like, the right ups and just start handling business. And then it starts weeding out the week and keeping the strong and getting back to the fire service that was meant to be, you know, because again, like, we talked about it in the episode, we want the strong hormone fueled alpha dogs out there making grabs and doing the job, right? And then why I said that the pipes and drums are so protected and so guarded is because the people that are part of that want to fucking be there. They want to be the volunteer, their time to be there. They volunteer to carry on that tradition and keep it at the highest regard that possible. And I think that a lot of these kids that get into the fire service and they just just a job. It's no longer calling. It's no longer a career. It sounded fun. They did it right along. I got to see some guys hang out and watch movies and they're like, I want to do that. And then they don't pick up overtime. They call out sick on holidays and shit. They fuck their buddies all the time. That guy's going to the boxing ring and getting his ass kicked. You know, and then he'll either quit or he'll stop doing that. You know, so it's one of those get on board or get out type situations. I like it. I know for a fact. No one has ever said a boxer ring. I like the idea. So if I were you, I would do like, Hey, man, we're going to depend on the size of your city. We're going to centrally place. You know, if it's smaller one or maybe multiple and it's due is it's not even the even the guys in the house is like, Hey, NG1 has a problem that fucking latter one at different house or whatever. Hey, bro, we're going to meet at whatever first street in Maine. Okay. And everybody knows you bring your head gear. You bring your freaking gloves. We're going to do it at the end. Guess what? You're exhausted, but you're going to hug it out. It's squashed. And then we all move on. And I agree with the 100%. I think you would curb a lot of the bitch, the unnecessary bitching. There is bitching that we have to do to make effective chains that is needed. But unfortunately, the majority of the bitching is exactly what it is. It's just complaining. And that's the main. So the the ministerial complaining defends the ears for those that need to hear the good complaints to make effective changes. And it's like the boy Christ wolf, right? It's just so much complaining that eventually they just shut their ears off. And I'm tired of hearing it. Well, let's get rid of that. So I'll tell you what I'm at the deployments. I'm multiple deployments. There was boxing rings at the motor pool, which is kind of cool, like it was the thing. And we were I mean, there was betting. There was there was there was a lot of shady shit that went down, but it was such a good wholesome experience that like again, people will go in and just spar each other. There was people that just did it for fitness. There was people that went in there to handle business. And it it it worked like almost 100% of the time. It worked. Yeah, dude, I'll never and I actually kind of forgot about this. Until you said the boxing ring, like when I was active duty, I got into it with a junior member. I think I was a E four at the time. He was a E two. Yeah, I said something along those lines. Or I was a five. He was a three. I don't fucking know. But anyway, I remember he was talking shit. And I squarely slapped him in the face. In the mess hole, you know, like just straight up like I and I did it on purpose. It wasn't a punch. It was a purposeful slap. And he was it was like everything just went fucking ghost quiet, you know. And it was literally I'm like, and that's what happens when you talk shit. I just walked away. But guess what? At the end, he came to me. We talked it out and it was squash. And we were friends prior to and exactly like what you were alluding to before. We were better friends after that incident happened. It is just and I know chief officers, if they're listening to this, they're going to lose their fucking might. And if you've made it this far and your command officer is some sort, please, I hope you understand the direct message we're trying to say. It is candle shit at the lowest level. Let the guys be guys. And guess what? The job will get better. But all those little things about like, hey, the guys don't want to train. Hey, the performance on the fireground was maybe subparing that all that shit would fucking equal itself out because they're handling itself in house. Everyone is now communicating effectively. And then we're all friends. We're closer knit now. So guess what we're doing? We're fucking sweating together. We're fucking training together. We're working together. We're breaking doors together. We're fighting fire together. Everybody benefits. And because of that, the public actually benefits. They don't know what goes on behind the curtains and they'll need to. But all they know is city of whatever, county of whatever, fire district, whatever, they're fucking badass because I call them and those guys are fucking dialed. That's what they need to know. And the only way to get there is to figure out how to squash all the bullshit. And again, I agree with Jeff 100%. You know, we need to start handling stuff in house more without it escalating all the way up to sometimes even before the suppression officer, but absolutely never to the command staff. It should never get there unless it's egregious. You know, and we all know those egregious things. You know, there's certain things that have to be elevated no matter what. But we're not talking to me in that shit. We're talking about the day-to-day firehouse bullshit. You know, yeah, we live with each other all the time. And like I said, family's fight and we get past it. We're still family at the end of the day, right? That's what it is. Like, we're going to fight. We're going to not going to see eye to eye on everything. We're going to, and that's like a rank off thing. You've got a problem with me as a captain because I made a bad call or whatever. Fucking call me on it. Let's go. I'm I'm home well enough to listen. You know, now, I mean, maybe my younger years, not so much, but I'm a whole lot more likely to listen to you now, my older age, because I probably don't want to get in that boxing ring anymore. Yeah, I will if I have to, but I don't know. Yeah, it's natural progression. It's funny because there's a lot of like, there's trends in the fire service. And you and I've seen so many trends. Like the last one that was really big for a long time was CrossFit. I feel like now the new trend is MMA, but mostly like jiu jitsu and stuff like that, which is great. Don't give me wrong, but I'm like, the guy's doing that stuff. I'm like, Hey, my goal, like I go day by day. You know, so like, Hey, I'm worried about today. Whatever happened yesterday. I can't change. I'm not worried about tomorrow yet. I'm I'm handling today. My goal every single day when I wake up is not to get punched in the face, typically, you know, because it hurts a lot more when you're freaking 45 like me. So it's like, again, you're like, if I have to, yeah, okay, I have to, but I don't want to. I'm not I got to remember these kids are 20 now. I'm not 20 anymore. You know, it's, it hurts a lot. longer and, you know, it's, and I'm probably going to pull something, you know, it's, it's going to suck. So dude, listen, I appreciate your time more than you know, I am so have this topic. We have talked about shit. It's probably a year in the fucking making, I feel like, and no better fit. Dude, no better fit. It's still in the back of my laptop. No better fit than episode number 50, which is a big mile mark. You know, it's to have this conversation. This is, this is why the podcast started to just start talking about the traditions, start airing things out, understand that, and you said it better than anybody else. It's that 10% of the much. That's what we call them in the fools for the fools. Remember, you know what we're talking about? They have the megaphone. They're the loudest, but I promise you they're the minority. So be, be that forward aggressive fireman and start bringing shit up, and you'll watch your department change within the next couple of years for the better. I promise you. So with all that said, Jeff, dude, I appreciate you so much. Is there anything you want to leave the audience with before we sign up? No, I'm good. I appreciate it, man. It's been fun. Cool. All right. Well, listen. Check out episode number 51. Thank you, guys. So much for fucking staying tuned to allow us to get to episode 50. I hope you made it this far and I hope you got something out of the episode. So again, remember, we'd like to say it at the end when we remember if you leave your ego out of the fire service, imagine what we could accomplish. So it's going to make everything better. So with that said, we'll see you guys the next episode. Have a good one.