Episode 5: What can we learn from other countries about ending homelessness?

I'm Claire McKenna and this is the Focus Ireland Podcast. In this series, we'll take a deep dive into the most prevalent social crisis of the last ten years. Homelessness. We'll discuss every aspect of the crisis. Talk with people who've experienced homelessness firsthand. Meet people who work in the field as well as experts in the area. And you, Ha, Ha can and joins me on the line now. Hello, you, Ha, how are you? Hello. Fine. Nice to meet you online. Thank you so much for a coming out of retirement to talk about housing first. I'm sure it's still something you're very much passionate about. Well, that's true. It's not easy to drop an issue like this, simply saying goodbye to your workmates. It sticks into your mind all the time. And researching you for this interview, you've talked an awful lot about being part of something bigger, that this was so much more to you than just a job. Well, that's true. I think that I have been in many positions during my working life and in different roles in relation to homelessness problem also. And the last years that I have been working as a CA, go in my foundation has been very rewarding because I have been able to do in practice things, really change, arrange housing, housing, etc. Things that I earlier wrote about or talked about. And it has been very rewarding. And at the same time, the feeling that this is something that no one can do alone. So I think that together with other people, you can see amazing things. And I think that's one of the key lessons from Finland that together, you are much stronger and you can make real impact in your own country. Well, tell us a little bit about the situation with homelessness in Finland. When you set up the WIFoundation, what was the homeless landscape like? I started my working life in the 1980s and I worked for the City of Helsinki. And I was responsible for the homeless services for several years. And at that time, we had around almost 20,000, over 18,000 homeless people in statistics. And my foundation where I have now been working, I worked from 2013 until a couple of months ago, when my success started. So my foundation was established in 85 with the idea to buy apartments from the private market, to be used as rental apartments for homeless persons. That was one of the starting points of a change in the Finnish homelessness policy. And at the moment, the last year, the last count we had on homelessness so that we had less than 4,000 homeless persons in Finland for the first time. And 65% of these are homeless people are living temporary with friends and relatives. So we have a very small amount of temporary accommodation. And this is something that has really changed. There are virtually no street homelessness in Finland. And temporary accommodation is very marginal. In the 1980s, when I worked for the City of Helsinki, there were still around 2,000 bed places in shelters and hostels. And now there's, I think, that maximum 200 temporary accommodation places in Helsinki at the moment in years. So it has been a huge change. And explain the concept of housing first. I know the clue is very much in the name, but it's a different way of looking at a homeless person, isn't it? Yes. Yes. The way how we have understood housing first. We started in 2008, a national program to reduce long-term homelessness. And then we changed our thinking so that housing your own home is the foundation for your living and you should get permanent housing, permanent home without any preconditions. So if you have other issues like with health or social issues like substance abuse, for example, you are not supposed to solve these issues before getting the apartment. Because the apartment is the foundation and it helps to solve the other issues, of course, with support. So for us, it means that you have your own rental apartment with your own rental contract. Normally it's unlimited time as long as you pay your rent. And then you get support according to your needs. But there's also, this is mainly based on individual apartments that are scattered around, but we also have supported housing units. So we have renovated some of the existing hostels into individual apartments, but in these units there can also be on-site staff to provide support. So there are different options with kind of housing you make it. But it's always your own independent apartment. It's support. Yeah. And I think that's a really important message to everyone. I suppose that's why it was important for the shelters to be closed down because you shouldn't be just grateful to come in off the street. You should be given a situation in which you can get the support you need and be able to thrive and be the best you can in life. Yes, that's absolutely true. And I think that one of the problems in many countries is that huge amount of money is used for temporary accommodation. And for us people living in temporary accommodation, they are still homeless. It's not the solution to homelessness. A couple of years ago, I know this from some article that give amount of money that was used in Ireland for temporary accommodation in shelters and hostels. And I just made a calculation that with that money we could have bought in Finland over 900 permanent apartments. So it's an important question where you put the money if you want to end homelessness. And that was I think that the role of housing first in Finland has been important because it allowed a systemic change in the way how we try to solve homelessness. So we try to end it with permanent housing solutions and housing first was the catalyst in this change that we have accomplished. And I think that's a really important part of the discussion, the savings that can be made when the money is spent more efficiently. But you also talk away from the accounting books about empathy and as well as a need for policy shift that there needs to be a shift in society and how we view homeless people and the kind of society we wish to live in and be a part of. Yes, I think that of course it's there are very strong moral and ethical reasons because I think that it's a question about undivided human value and housing should be a kind of basic social right. And that's of course the main main point, main reason why we should get rid of homelessness. But of course we such that it's also economically lasting to do and it brings a lot of benefits for the society if we really aim to end homelessness instead of trying to manage it somehow by arranging temporary accommodation. And as you say there's very few tools we need just head and heart. We don't always have to be logical and yet the logic is there as you say because not only are you saving money and ending homelessness but in building this accommodation you're providing employment for other people. Yes, of course one of the benefits but I think that it seems that it's so hard in some societies to understand that this is really the wise thing to do and for me it's a I can understand that in principle it's so simple. We know the solutions, how to solve a homelessness, we know how we can end it and we have to imagine a world without homelessness and then we can think about what are the steps that are needed to to reach that goal, but that's the only way that I can understand it. Then I think that in especially in the Western countries, the states, the countries have the resources, they have the money needed to solve homelessness. If we can't solve an issue like this, which is still a limited social issue, how are we going to solve the other bigger issues that we are facing in the field, like the climate change and what it requires from our societies? What were some of the biggest challenges for you to overcome with the WI Foundation? Who were the hardest entities to convince? Was it the policymakers, was it society, was it the time to build housing? What were some of the hurdles you had to jump over? Well, I would say that it has been quite amazing that we managed to get a very wide political support for this new policy, because I think that everybody, not only the experts working with homelessness, could see that the traditional way to address homelessness, it wasn't working. So there was a kind of willingness to be faced with policy and in the Finnish society, we have small country and we have to keep everybody on board. I think that there was this kind of sentiment in the society, that it was surprisingly easy to get a wide political backing for this idea. But of course, the general public, there are still very stirrup that images of homelessness, and there has been, and I think that in principle, on a central level, if you discuss with people, they say that they are very much in favour of solving homelessness. But when it's a question about some concrete projects in their neighbourhood, then you can meet a lot of resistance. This is something that we have had a lot of experience during the years. The only way how you can solve these kind of resistance is of course to try to provide information. But people have to see with their own eyes that when a new building for homeless people has been established, that things are going rather smoothly. And there are not that kind of problems that they expected beforehand. So there are a lot of prejudices still to overcome even in Finland. There's a lot of economic reasons given here in Ireland as to why we have a housing crisis and a homelessness crisis here. And to fix the problem and end homelessness, it's going to cost a lot of money. It's going to take a lot of time and it's going to have a detrimental effect on the property market. What do you say to that reasoning? Well, I would say that it's simply not true. In the Finnish society, the affordable social housing has played a crucially important role in solving homelessness. It's the most important element of structural prevention of homelessness, the share of affordable social housing that we have. It's not only 30% of the total housing stock, but in the new housing area in the big cities, at least 25% at the moment is affordable social housing. And it's going to be increased in the coming years up to 30 and eventually to 35% of the total housing stock. So this is also the reason why we actually don't have any family homelessness in Finland. In statistics, there are 140 homeless families, which can also be couple of sweet dogs without children. So it's mainly single homes persons that we have in statistics. And this is because we have this affordable social housing. And this is, I think, one of the differences between Finland and Ireland. I remember that I was in Ireland around 10 years ago, and there was new strategy for social housing. And it was so good, the paper that I think that we have to copy it. But I don't know what happened because it didn't become a reality in the years that followed the good plan. Well, we do have a housing first policy. It's not across the board. But I want to bring in Joey now. And one of the main messages that comes from you, is that we need to treat a homeless person as another human being. And that's what's happened to Joey, as he was supported by the focus Ireland housing first for youth in Wexford. And he joins me from his own home there. Hello, Joey. How are you? How are you? Very good. What's there much tidying up to be done before resumed into your into your house? I've done a lot of tidying. I did. I put in a big effort. I did. I was cleaning. I was cleaning and scrubbing for our three hours yesterday. Good stuff. Well, thank you very much to have us over to your house. All be it virtually. How have you been getting on in it? I have been getting on very well. I have achieved so much living on me on and that and I've got to do more things for myself. And I think I'm taking all the boxes by myself, by me living on me on. And tell us a little bit about your story then, Joey. What was life like for you growing up? When I was very, when I was younger, I was taught to do independent skills at a very young age. And to be honest, I had to do me on things like and when I was growing up at home, I had to cycle from it. I used to do boxing and all and I had to cycle from boxing on me on every night. I was 12 kilometers outside my own house when I was living at home. And I was even living in care. And I thought I thought that I wanted to live independently at a young age. And I thought I was able to do this. And there were lots of negativity towards me living on me on. And they said that I can do this and that I was very vulnerable to live on me on. And I proved them all wrong. And I knew that I was able to do this and I just put me head down and did this. And Joey, you have a diagnosis of autism. So do you think that's what was worrying people? But as you say, you'd picked up a lot of skills of how to manage that. Yeah, I do have a diagnosis of autism. Yeah, there were a lot of people who were telling me that I couldn't even do it because of my disability and me interacting with others and stuff like that. And they taught that I couldn't even go to different places on me on. And that I wouldn't even get back in one piece and that, you know, people will kind of take advantage of me. And I was, I just said that I was able to do this. And I didn't let anything over, comers, I didn't. And you're a year and a half into your home. And tell us a little bit about what life is like. I know you're a college. You're still big into your sports. Yeah, I am very big into my sports. I love soccer and GAA and I'm going to, I'm in college in National Learning Network down here in Wixford. And I'm going to have to watch for next year to study, care and hospitality. I am, which is a big job I'm interested in in the future. And I'm actually past that I wouldn't get up for college when I was living on that I passed that I needed. Someone to wake me up in the mornings for college. And stuff and I passed that I was able to handle that well. And I'm well able to get up for college and do me on thing and make me lunches in the morning and stuff like that. And it's clear that you're well able, as you say, to live independently and you have a plan and a mission and you're going to have a mission. your living your life, but you do also get supports and tell us a little bit of baked that and how important that is to you. I have supports from my workers. My social worker has helped me so much with me living on me on and she helped me through the content. She was helping me set up plans. She was helping me live independently and she helped me set up goals for myself to live on me on and I even said to me social worker this is what I want to do and this is where I see me doing. I actually wanted to do shared living at a point I did and I thought that I want to share living and my family were kind of disagreeing with me doing shared living because it has that people that I can't interact with people which isn't true and I even said to them that I wanted to do as well. I saw myself doing independent living because I was able to get my things done and I think shared living is a bit hard to be honest because there be fights over little things like someone you were a chocolate bar that didn't give hope about you eating it like. Yeah somebody always takes your stuff out of the fridge and yes that can cause World War 3 and you have a great social circle as well don't you and I'm sure you're your friends and your foster family are so proud of all you've achieved. They are very proud of me and they're very proud of what I did and what I've overcome and me faster. My mother is very proud of me for living on me and I go to see her off and rassler to see how she is and she is thinking I'm doing phenomenal. You are and you heard me talking to you about how we need to look at homelessness in this way and take a person where they're at meet them give them the supports they need and give them a home because look what you're achieving with that. That's it and people who are homeless and people who are vulnerable you could learn so much from all of that and you can overcome us and the thing is like there you have to overcome all that negativity and look at it as a positive because there's so much things it's always easy to look at the negative side of things instead of the positive because there's so many positive things and there's so much out there you can learn from. And with the right supports and a home to call your own there is no stopping you. There isn't and if you have all the supports in need there's no problem there's many of them here in Ireland and there's a lot of people who are with focus and they've overcome so much in their lives they have and they have and focus have been very phenomenal with all of that they have. Where do you think you got this positive attitude from because yes the supports have been amazing as we say but a lot of this is down to you Joey and your attitude to love you. A lot of this is down to me and a lot of this is where I want to do things and a lot of this is down to my ambition of doing things and seeing things and willing to learn from things like I ain't going off to Turkey next week and that's all when I was a young fella I've always wanted to travel there and I think that I can learn so much by doing things myself and doing things at my own initiative. That's going to be a huge milestone then your first holiday. First holiday I've gone with travel company I am and me support workers have organized that with me they have and I said to me as part workers how will I go to Turkey and they've helped me out so much with us like with me stepping up going on a trip with the travel company and doing things with myself and I think I've handled me life so well and I overcome when I first live on my own I've asked you know that I was kind of scared out me with and I've just overcome that so much I have. Yeah you certainly have and much as you say you've a lot to you can learn there's a lot that we can learn from you to Joey and thank you so much for talking so openly and honestly and I have no doubt that you will go on to have a very successful and happy life and I wish it all the very best with us. Thank you and that's it it's a lot of people can do us they can and if you have the rights of parts you can't go around. Thank you so much Joey you how can I bring you back in because Joey is just one of many examples of the people behind the statistics and this assumption people make of why somebody would slip through the cracks and become homeless I think Joey represents that there are plenty of people who want to live a life and thrive and contribute to society and sometimes they just need a bit of a support to do that and that's a society we should all want to be a part of. Yes I think that what what so it told was a beautiful example that it doesn't require so much from us from from the society to make it possible for people to flourish and so their human potential it's a very basic things that the requires and and I think that this is exactly the thing that that we should do with homelessness. Yeah make it possible for people to flourish. You may have seen that in Ireland we're due to set a date for a long promised referendum on the right to housing. What are your thoughts on this approach? Do we need to recognize the right to a home as a basic human right and and recognize how important it is to allow people to flourish that they have somewhere to call their own? I think that that's of course an important milestone to have that kind of legislation. I think that there are so many international agreements and declarations that say that housing is a basic human right and it's and it's important if that kind of legislation will be will be set up because it shows that there is a certain political will but an act without action is not not enough so it should lead to to to go concrete things. Housing as a human right, housing as a legal right is that's that's a great thing but yeah it becomes reality only if you make it possible for people to have their own home, their own name on the door. And you talk about the importance of partnership and collaboration so even you at the WIFO Foundation you would have been working with other NGOs, charities and state authorities and we mentioned the societal shift all of that needs to come together doesn't it? Yes, I think that this we should see homelessness as a national issue that requires a very strong very wide partnership between different different actors, the state authorities, ministries, local authorities and NGOs. That's the only way how we can reach quite amazing amazing assessments in in our own countries. What about the targets then? If we look even to Finland there is a target to end homelessness in Helsinki by 2025 and in Finland full stop by 2027 so are you on track to make this happen? Well it requires a lot of work still but but I would say that it's it's totally possible and in my thinking we should do it even faster than 2025, 2027 and I think that it's absolutely it's it's possible and that means that we should have zero homelessness which is which is rather unique. It's totally achievable, and body-trick-bars, very wide partnership. But I think that all the elements are there. We know what other measures that I needed to achieve it. So it's simply to put it into practice, the plans that we have. And people might be listening and they will have heard that you began working in the 80s, and now we're in the 2020s, and that you're almost there and you've made massive change, but it has taken time. So what do you think of the prospects for Ireland to end homelessness? The target has been set by 2030. And as you say, targets and mission statements mean nothing, unless the actions and the policies begin to change. But knowing what you know about the Irish model, can we turn it around and end homelessness? Well, I think that of course it's possible, but it requires a lot of determination. And housing first is a great policy. It's a great model, but you can't have housing first without having the housing first. You need to have the housing. And I think that that seems to be the key issue in Ireland. And it's not possible without a very strong role of the public authorities to make it possible for to provide the needed affordable housing. Yeah. Well, as you say, it makes economic sense. It makes sense on an empathetic level, and it is possible. A world without homelessness is possible. And to change the world, we need to start by changing how people think. Thank you, you have, for all the work you've done in this area. We always look to the Scandinavian countries as the ones who seem to have it all. So when it comes to social welfare, when it comes to education, and now it also seems to homelessness. So thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. Thank you, Emma. I'm looking for my next visit to Ireland. Thanks a conference in Dublin and I'm getting very much to once again come to Ireland. Well, hopefully there'll be a day not too far off into the future when we can invite you over to show you how we've sorted the homelessness problem. We've closed the shelters. We've closed the emergency accommodation, and we now have true housing first. To you, you have Kakanan, and of course to Joey, who is a housing first recipient, living his life in Wexford. Thank you both so much for talking to me today. Thank you very much. Coming up on the next episode of the Focus Ireland podcast, we'll be asking how do we move on from homelessness? I got a phone call to call for a viewing, and I couldn't believe it. It was amazing to be honest when I got my place. I don't know, I'm still kind of on a high because it's freedom, isn't it? To decide a fancy company, to make a plan, you can make your own dinner or whatever, have a show, I'll have a show in five minutes, you know, stuff like that, little things like that that you would take for granted. And it's something that's so important to us as humans, is to have autonomy over our own. Yeah. It's life. Yeah, it's freedom. Please remember to like, subscribe and share. If you'd like more information on the work of Focus Ireland, visit focusarland.ai.