Episode 5 – Drafting the Blueprint for Project and Construction Management’s Future

Hi everyone, Rich Malsman here and what you're going to hear is a discussion that I hope will be illuminating on construction and construction project management and the role of high-reducation in all of that. I'm going to have our panelists introduce themselves. I'll introduce myself extremely briefly. I'm Rich Malsman in the project management faculty here at BU and have been for quite some time along with Professor Dr. Vijay Kahnabar. And I've got 40 years of industry experience, not particularly in construction in Telecom, which does involve the built environment because we're digging trenches and putting equipment in manholes and so forth. And I have also been in parallel teaching at BU mostly at BU for the past 15 or 20 years and teaches suite of project management courses, which now include and focus on construction. I'll ask, I'm just going to go left to right on my screen and ask Professor Dr. Anil Sauny to introduce himself and then Michelle can introduce herself as well. Thank you so much Professor Malsman. I'm really delighted that we are engaged in this conversation today. So as Professor Malsman said, my name is Anil Sauny. I'm a visiting professor in the project management program at BU Met. I work in the construction sector. I'm also the global head of sustainability for an organization called RICS. Really delighted that I got this opportunity to participate in the creation of a new master's in certificate program and construction management and technology. I guess that is one of the reasons why we are doing our introductions and this brief conversation. I got a call from Professor Kanabar, Professor Malsman a couple years ago saying that they are thinking of starting this program. And I can assure you that much of the discussion took place in what Professor Malsman calls the Jenga building or the data science building. So it has come from very good place in terms of our discussions and the creation of this master's program and the certificate program. I worked in the construction sector for, oh boy, over 25 years, I have worked in, I'll go east to west. I guess worked a year in Australia, several years in India, spent time in the UK and I've worked in Canada and the US. So I'm very happy to be having this conversation. So thank you, Professor Malsman for giving this chance. Great, nice to meet you all. My name is Michelle Mehu and I am new to BU but I am not new to higher ed nor am I new to design a construction either. My background in training is as an architect, I'm a licensed architect and when I graduated architecture school, I fell into higher ed a little bit by mistake because there was a recession going on and so you know part of what we'll talk about a little bit today is how the career of project management and design a construction can sometimes be shaped by what's going on in the world and different influences that are happening around us. So I fell into higher ed and started to work in project management and was delighted by a lot of what I was doing, the variety of projects, the variety of buildings, being at a place that's really mission focused about education, were all wonderful things but I was also desperate to be a designer. That's what I went to school for. So after working there a little while, I went off into private practice, practiced out in California for a little while and interestingly found myself continued to be drawn towards higher ed and project management. So when my first child was born it was one of those times of time to grow up and come home and the full adulting life came back to the East Coast and I had a choice to make and I chose to continue my career in higher ed and in project management. So fast forward now I have over 30 years of experience and although again new to be you, I'm here as the associate vice president for planning design and construction and I oversee a team of about 25 people here on campus responsible for all the project management of any size project whether it's small or large capital work. We do about 200 projects a year, many of them smaller in nature but also some really big ones like Warren Towers for example which is years long and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. So a wide range of portfolio and project types. So I'm really excited to come here as a new person to be you but a veteran to person in the field of construction and higher ed and share with you some of my insights today. It's real pleasure to be with you all. Okay thank you for the introductions and Michelle I think maybe have you been personally responsible for depositing all those orange cones in the parking lot at walk towers that we have to weave our way through. Here's a lot of work going on in that garage. I'm happy we can even open the garage for parking so yeah. Yeah it's amazing that it's that it's still under construction that you can still use the building while it's under construction I think that's commendable. So let's get started with some questions. From your perspective it be you what are the biggest forces currently shaping how we plan design and build whether it's technology workforce shifts or the housing crisis. You want me to get started on that? I can I can take a stab at that. Yeah sure sure. Take a stab. Yeah so obviously right now we're in an interesting time particularly in higher ed with a lot of the different things going on in our government and changes that have been going on which are really shaping a lot of work that we're looking at currently but taking a step away from the moment that we're in what I've experienced I'd say at least since since COVID right I think we all judge our lives now on COVID time was this pre-COVID or was this post-COVID in this post-COVID world that we've been living in. I've noticed a trend that really doesn't has it seemed to settle down much and it's really an off balance in design and construction around supply and demand. Basic economics 101 supply and demand and what do I mean I think in two major areas I'm seeing some some challenges one is on the labor side. It's we live in a culture we live in a country where there's an expectation to go on for higher ed and that means a lot of people aren't choosing the trades the vocations and so that can leave a labor shortage in terms of the construction side and then think about it we're also raising a generation post-COVID who has this expectation and desire of this flex hybrid world in in terms of how we work. You know and Elie you were just talking about how you're traveling and you're all over the world and going to different places people want that kind of rich cultural experience in their lives when you work construction you don't always get that right you have to come to work every day and you have to be on site to be productive and to get the work done so I feel like sometimes there's this opposing you know pressure from our culture go on to higher ed have this flexible kind of lifestyle but that doesn't really promote the trades all that well that leaves us in a bit of a pickle. I've also not seen the the market really settle down in terms of volatility volatility of equipment. So during COVID certain equipment and by equipment I mean it could be it could be an electrical switch gear unit or it could be an HVAC unit or it could be a can of paint or it could be some piece of metal certain pieces of equipment and materials were very volatile in terms of cost and lead time. Throw on top of that the tariff wars that we've been in the middle of the supply and demand on materials is making construction very difficult to plan for for example we were just talking about renovating the MuGar library and we do need some new electrical switch gear that's still a 14-month lead time to buy a piece of switch gear that's crazy I mean living in a world where you have to be out and planning years and events just to just to get the piece of equipment that you need is a major challenge so those are a couple ways that I'm giving as examples of this supply and demand really impacting and creating some challenges I feel in our world right now. Maybe I can connect very well to Michelle what she just said I think as a project manager as a construction manager you have to worry about skills and the skill workforce and use strategies to develop a workforce that probably is providing what you need for your projects and that's where our program fits in very well I think project managers and all the issue of demand supply market volatility as well as issues related to lead times on important materials and equipment I think that's where again a project manager plays a significantly important role I know we learned so many things during COVID Michelle that folks were hoarding material supplies not knowing when they will arrive many of the students that I talked to never thought that our products arrived on ships so new lessons for students as well and so on zooming out a little bit I think what I'm also seeing in my conversations with some folks globally is the role of data technology and AI, which suddenly I think got accelerated by what we saw during the difficult times of the pandemic. So I think more and more, the role data tech and AI is playing in our sector also is getting enhanced. What we are seeing is that there's less resistance to looking at and using technology. This wasn't the case earlier, but obviously it's still human in the loop, decisions and judgments made by human experts. So as a student coming out of these programs, I think becoming technology savvy is crucial. We were delighted that we were able to offer tours during our project management conference that takes place every June to the not accessible floor of the data science building where you can go see back of the house equipment that runs that building and perhaps a dashboard or a digital twin that helps run such an amazing building. We also, I'm seeing trends connecting project managers work to sustainability. I know that the data science building won several awards. One of the awards related to reduction in embodied carbon use of geothermal wells, which become case studies in the courses that Professor Malzman and I teach to our students. So I think you're right, folks are looking for flexibility, but at the same time our sector has begun giving some exciting new avenues in data, in tech, in AI, in sustainability, climate science and so on. So if you broaden the sort of your scope, you see very nice opportunities to work in our sector in Excel and deliver some of the excellent projects that are being delivered by our sector. I still remember dropping off my daughter in 2016 at the war in towers and she wasn't happy to just put it at that some so delighted that a major construction and renovation of those residential units for students is taking place also. And these are some of the exciting projects that you get to do when you are graduating from a program like the project management program at BU. I completely agree with the trend you're talking about in terms of teaching technology and I'm really glad to hear that the program is focusing on that and offering that. So even though I talked about coming to construction sites and having to be in person, you know, project management can happen anywhere and does happen anywhere and it's really important that even traditionally even before. So you know, you know, you're working with a lot of different trades so you have an architect who's doing the design, you have a structural engineer, you have an electrical engineer, you have an energy person, you know, maybe sustainability person and the project manager's job is to be what I always call the orchestra leader, the orchestra leader, who's bringing together. And making sure everybody's coordinated and communicating with one another. Well, one of the major ways we do that is with different technologies and there are different programs available within the construction and design industry that are tools that we use our tools of the trade to make sure that we're overlapping with one another clash detection, coordinating with one another on the technical side, but also on the human side as well. I'm thinking of some tools that we use every day that are super helpful. There's now 3D scans that you can go in and take a scan of a building, like one of them we call them a Matterport. And so you could, let's say when we renovate the MuGar library, we can take this 3D scan prior to doing anything in the building. And then when we start to renovate and pull the building apart, we can go back to that 3D modeling and look exactly what did that corner of the building look like before we started taking this apart and it become a really valuable tool, particularly for a renovation like Warren Towers or like a MuGar coming up where you have these older buildings that despite how much we try and peel away layers and see what we're working with. There's always like one of a four letter word and construction is an unforeseen condition, right? We hate to bump into things that we didn't know were there because those can often cost more money and cost more time. So this kind of technology also almost gives us like a superhero X-ray vision, right? And so there's ways it can really be helpful. And on the construction site as well, I'm thinking about in my previous institution I worked for, there was one of the newer buildings did not have one 90 degree angle in the entire building. And so the building was all constructed using vectors and rays and technology that I don't quite frankly even understand and yet these construction personnel did understand and had to be able to shoot all these different angles and make the building come together to meet the architects vision. So technology is everywhere from design into construction and a huge part. So I'm really glad to hear it something you're focusing on. Excellent. I'll wrap up with a couple of comments. Just having come back from Phoenix at PMI's Global Summit, there's a lot of buzz now about value delivery and the idea that it's important for construction project like the CDS as a great example, not just thinking about being done and turning this over to students, but thinking about the energy that this building consumes over time and thinking about how it delivers value to the students and faculty and staff that are using the building next year, the year after that, even the decade after that. So this idea of long term thinking and value delivery was super prevalent at the 4500 person attended PMI Summit in Phoenix and there were construction companies marketing their technology, even though this is a project management wide summit. So I would say that it's good to see that that project management, although a glue for construction is also spreading its wings and thinking a little bit longer term. Let's go to another question one in particular about higher ed, the kind of the role of higher ed. Do you see opportunities for higher ed institutions like Boston University to play a role in addressing the housing crisis? Either through campus projects, partnerships or innovation in design and construction practices. So I don't know if you're all aware that the U is undergoing right now a campus framework plan and a framework plan is a step higher than a master plan. A master plan is you look at an entire campus and you're starting to map out exact projects that you might invest in in the upcoming years. Framework plan is really starting to map out options and impacts. So you may not pick the exact project, but you're looking at trends going forward where you might have growth, where you might have reduction and then how that might result in a physical way on your campus so that you can then make decisions about future projects. So we're just kicking this off right now and housing is a big part of this discussion because of this housing crisis. There is a lot of trending and benchmarking that we do to look at the kinds of housing that we're providing to our students percentage wise for undergrads as well as for graduates what type of housing is that how do we compare to our peers in the in the Boston area, but also at other large research universities. And then what is you know if we look at our larger community and not just at BU but the larger housing crisis and community so it's a really hot topic right now not just here at BU but throughout the entire country and we're really trying to take a look at it from this 30,000 foot perspective and ask hard questions like okay how much of our housing are we offering for our students we we come in at about 70% on average for our undergraduate population that we can offer for housing that's not bad that's a little bit above some of our peers in this local area but we have a really small percentage when it comes to our graduate students right so there's potentially a need there. But despite that there's pressure from the city of Boston and honestly our own desire to offer even more than that so we have to look at things like growing enrollment over the years let's say we happen to grow our undergrad enrollment or the trend continues and in addition we want to provide not 70% but 80% what does that mean how many beds are we going to have to build to really meet that so that's a framework plan is asking questions like that and then where would we build it do we do we build this. Jason to other neighborhoods right because we want that synergy that experience for our students to not just have the learning experience but the living experience and how do those two melds together. A higher ed is in a really interesting position we have access to funding that a lot of other private places wouldn't have whether that's through bonds or debt or donations from our allowable. So we often can find funding models that allow us opportunities to build housing that may be the private market wouldn't. However, rent tough times right now. So the amount of funding available to us through debt or through donors is historically low right now. So a lot of campuses have been considering joint developments with communities. And these are often referred to as P3, like a private public partnership, private public partnership of P3. And they're really up and coming. Northeastern has done some of these and we're studying it right now here at BU. And so what a P3 can do is, and we're studying all the ways you can model it. It can be something that a developer could come and provide the cash, the funding for it, if you will. And then we end up owning and operating it going forward. Or a developer comes and gives the cash and they own and operate it right. There's some profitability that could be lost. So there's all these different models economically that you have to look at spatially, you know, space wise impact where would they be. And then some colleges and universities will even consider, well, maybe we'll build a tower that meets more than our demand and offer some floors to the community. So you might have this share living experience where certain floors might be dedicated just for the University of college use. And then other floors might be for outside community. So there's a whole bunch of models right now to think about that could offer this creativity and solving problems depending on where you're located, what the need is, and what you're thinking about for your future. But it's complex, it's costly, and it takes a lot of time. It's unfortunately not no overnight solutions. To perhaps add to that, I think I totally agree, Michelle, with what you've said, huge role that universities can play in this space. Not only for their own community, but I guess creating models that can be replicated elsewhere, even though funding sources could be different, project structuring could be different. But I think there are good lessons that can be learned. And also, I think an excellent place where project managers as Professor Malzman was saying value delivery, looking at the total cost of ownership or a whole of life worldview. So these types of projects, if you're going to build, operate, transfer, maintain, whatever that structure be, no longer you can just look at first cost or just the construction phase. You're going to bring in that worldview, which exposes project managers to understand the importance of having that should cost modeling or total cost of ownership as it's called. But in addition to what you said, I'll also say that this is actually a global problem, not just BU or Boston or US, it's a global issue. As I mentioned in my introduction, I was a couple of weeks ago, I was at a UN Climate Conference in which discussions take place primarily from a sustainability or climate crisis lens. But this year was different, I'm told it was my first attendance at this conference where I'm told this was the first time that it switched gears to action oriented discussion and housing came on top that, okay, we talk about carbon, we talk about sustainability and other aspects, but let's connect it to the real problems that we are facing. So housing, affordable, adequate, sustainable housing became a very important topic coming out of COP 30 as the conference is called. So it tells you the importance of this topic and the holistic nature of this topic and to not only requires perhaps upside construction techniques, better design, better project structuring, looking at PPP or other funding financing sources, but also looking at performance, occupant, thermal behavior or indoor air quality, maybe embodied an operational carbon replacement repair maintenance over the life of these assets. So I think it really gives project managers a good opportunity to understand these aspects which are connected eventually to value delivery. So I think housing gives us that canvas which we could actually bring into our classroom and talk about all these aspects of a project from project managers point of view. Yeah, I think we'll see I see some more turns in housing as well that also could be focused on with the project manager management. Housing is a perfect project type to start to implement modular and prefab which is a really big trend right now for project managers to understand. So modular meaning you might have a lot of repeating units right so let's say you were building an apartment building you have one bedroom two bedroom three unit build a modular and then you can repeat that multiple times right prefab meaning that you can build this off site and then bring it on to site and they're for you increase the quality control the efficiency, the thermal as you say properties of it right all these different values that we're seeing now that make. Housing in particular construction overall but housing in particular prime candidate for some of the newer sustainable kind of ways that we are looking to make improvements in in in that entire like you say process of it. I think with the state ability and other thing that's important to mention is that our energy codes are also starting to demand that we think about things in ways that sometimes technology hasn't quite even caught up to yet particularly here in the northeast. I don't have as much experience worldwide and they'll as you do but here in the northeast where you are really pushing the envelope with some of our energy codes including right here in Boston. So what do I say like we're kind of ahead of the time so warrant hours as an example is being asked now energy you might think of as just your heating or your lighting but energy is that thermal envelope right the performance of a building and how tight the building is and how it can keep the energy in when you want it in. And the warrant hours being an older building really needed to have that thermal envelope improved and so it was looking at products that could give the best performance to meet the energy code some of them for example were a spray foam insulation well that building has to get insured by an insurance company. We here at the use FM used to be FM global they're called FM FM doesn't like spray foam insulation and so they're saying we really want you using that from a risk perspective or saying but we have to to obtain the ratings that the Boston energy code is requiring for this building we must there's no other product on the market yet that can give us those end results. And so here we're looking at a company that's global their FM global but the Northeast is ahead of what it's pushing construction to do and so we're saying listen FM if you have other clients and Massachusetts you might need to revisit the standard because you're going to continue to see this come up over and over again and again it's that project manager needing to understand everything not just from the sustainability or the energy performance or how I'm even going to construct it but then how the owner can really protect their risks going to be. Protect their risks going forward with things like insurance it's that full cradle to grave experience which is one of the richest parts about being a project manager particular particularly at a place like a BU which I love being in higher ed. I get to live with the clients that use the buildings after we build them right so I don't just build a project design a project in the walk away and hope it all goes well I get to see how you're using the building what's failing what's doing well I think of it as stewardship. I think of it as ongoing stewardship of this campus of these buildings for the future mission of everybody that's going here so project management cannot only be rich in terms of the experience of what you're touching any given day but the value and purpose for why you're doing it so it's it's can be very fulfilling and very broad reaching. Exactly okay thank you Michelle and a new very very good insight there i think we actually can jump ahead to one of the later questions because you've kind of. By nature covered several in this conversation i just want to add that when you mention this p3 or ppp these partnerships one of the things we take right in is the power skills element of our training so the three sides of the triangle. One side is called used to be called leadership and now it's called power skills so things like collaboration conflict management team building negotiation those would be key in one of these p3 situations because you're dealing with a wide variety of stakeholders with different interests you just gave a great example with the insurers and the regulators right and you're in the middle of that as a project manager which we take as a we welcome as a challenge. And well that is if you've got the power skills to deal with it because you're now having to make people who have completely different backgrounds and interests agree with each other on behalf of your project so let's move on to another question let's talk about space utilization. Are you rethinking here at BU space utilization classrooms offices labs and research. response to how students, faculty, and staff engage with the campus. Yeah, we just recently moved some departments we did a study over at 25 Buick, where we were looking particularly at departments and functions that did largely work in a hybrid kind of work mode, meaning they would spend, you know, two or three days away from campus and the other ones here. And then we're looking at that space on those two or three days or not here and being highly underutilized. So we were targeting that kind of a space and could we start to bring people together and more of a shared office environment. And we were able to do that. We made a move over to 930, F and co-located some folks and it was gave us the ability to then free up a whole bunch of square footage. So a lot of institutions were looking at that like hybrid work and how has that allowed us to have more square footage rather than have to build or rent or something. But the other thing we're looking at with this framework plan is how can we create work that is more flexible in terms of multi-use really to promote an underlying value of the framework vision, which is this idea of convergence or interdisciplinary or, you know, cross-skills coming together. And therefore kind of working on some of our hardest problems in our world right now and creating kind of new forward thinking. And so where that can become challenging is when you get really highly specialized spaces like laboratories, let's just say research laboratories that might have certain requirements, you know, chemical fume hoods, for example. So how can we create places where different disciplines are converging, coming together in a way that's flexible and adaptable yet also highly specialized to me, you know, sometimes very, very regulated needs. And the more specialized you get, the more expensive it can get, right? You might need particular HVAC units or things like that. And obviously the more flexible you get, the more generic you want it. So we are definitely struggling with this idea of really wanting to build flexible space that can converge, multi-discipline everything and you do it in a way that doesn't break the bank. So we've done a lot of adaptive reuse as a the fancy world I'll use over the years here at BU. So you take a building that was never maybe was an old card dealership, right? We were in this, this neighborhood that had a lot of auto automotive technology to it. And we're using it for something completely different now. If I'm going to renovate one of those into a lab, it's going to cost me a whole lot more money than if I'm going to renovate a lab that already exists in Killashonb Hall, for example, the Killashon engineering where it's already got the lab, the HVAC, the infrastructure for it. So we're trying to think creatively about space we already have rather than build brand new buildings that can be very, very expensive and use a lot of embodied carbons and yet offer all of this flexibility and convergence and sustainability and all the things that we need. So we're thinking about it a lot every day. It's a challenge that we have. It's a need that we have, but we're excited for that opportunity of trying to create flexible space. I think perhaps what I would say is from what Michelle explained, a key thing for project managers to learn is trade off because our sector is all about trade-offs. We just heard an excellent example how design, science, technology makes sense for a particular type of insulation, but here an insurer comes and has a different viewpoint. You've got to take that on board because certainly you don't want to have a situation where the insurer doesn't cover your risks later on. So it's all about trade off that project managers need to work on and that's where the power skills come. If you have a rigid position as a project manager, that project team is not going to thrive. So very important. Second comment, I think you've pretty much covered everything, except that as a user of that space, I find my productivity and my students interaction goes up if the space has been designed keeping those aspects of human activity in view. So it really, really makes an impact from an end user point of view. It's not something abstract. It really impacts. How literally you run each one of your sessions? Is it group work or teamwork versus different kind of discussion? So I think that aspect is very important to keep in mind. That's great. I'm glad you brought up the idea of, you know, it's a give and take. It's a balance project management is all about that. You talked about your power skills triangle. I was trained on project management 101 in the triangle balance of a project, a construction project, a design project, which the balance of the three legs is always a scope or you could call it design or what are you doing, budget, the cost and schedule. And it's always a give and take. So if you want to hire and design, well, it's likely going to cost more money, right? So those legs of the back of triangle balance each other. If you want to cut down on time on schedule, you might therefore have to cut the scope and do less work. So those that balance project management is great for somebody who strives for balance, who kind of yarns for balance. So I oversee a whole team of project managers here. And I will say we do have a little bit of personality traits that are similar. We tend to be very goal oriented. We're very task oriented. We do like to see this big picture and then keep things in balance. So it's important too that as you're learning these skills, you learn about yourself and you check in with yourself and understand. Do I get excited when I cross another task off my list? That might make me a good project manager. And just understanding yourself because another thing that I think is really, really important in the development of a project manager, you have to be somebody who doesn't mind being reflective, looking back and trying to be a better version of yourself through lessons learned. It's a key fundamental part of a lean process, a way of working that you're always going back and learning from mistakes, not being afraid to make mistakes, but learning from them. And even if you didn't make mistakes, still going back and trying to find better, more improved ways of doing things so that you're earning to constantly improve, constantly self-reflect to get together with peers, collaborate and understand how to do things better. Another, I think important quality. So I think project managers can bring some humility, can tend to be a little bit humble in our work because we understand again, we're the orchestra leader, but we're not the expert in any one particular thing. We go and find those resources and keep everything in that balance of that give and take. And quite honestly, it's like a really rich way to live life. So that's been a very rewarding career for me. Exactly. This is why I have stayed in the field so long, even having an engineering background. And I think that's what drives a lot of project managers here. So I'm going to amplify what you said, Michelle, about self-awareness, that being a key, that's actually something that's taught in our leadership and emerging communications technologies course that I am teaching currently. Self-awareness is one of the key things we teach. In fact, before the class, there are a couple of self-assessments that you take required so that you know a little bit about yourself and even what others think about you. I won't get into all the details, but it will lead me to a different question. So I'm going to jump ahead a bit. Our construction management and technology masters program, the one here at BUMET. It emphasizes project management, emerging technologies and sustainability. How do those learning outcomes align with the skills that you are actually seeking in your own teams today? I think those sum up, if I could define like a perfect project manager, those would be the kinds of skills I would hope that they would be achieving. I think for a lot of the reasons that we already discussed this idea of self-reflection, of understanding first that you're dealing with other people in your work, right? And great teams is what makes a project great. I had this very interesting experience in my previous institution where we had this little boon of construction going on and I had six large projects going on simultaneously, all with different architects and different contractors. And I was at a rover, I could kind of watch them at a higher level. So I knew about all of them, but wasn't bogged down in the day-to-day detail of them. And I could kind of watch which teams were succeeding and which teams were challenged and why were they challenged and where was I seeing better outcomes or better productivity? And why was it? And someday I swear I'm going to write a book on this experience. It was just so interesting when it really comes down to it. It was all about the people. It's really all about the people. So learning those people skills, that leadership skills, I say you can train on technology all day long, but you can't teach the soft part. You have to kind of have that in what you can teach it. You guys do teach it. I mean, you have to have that drive and that desire. So you sort of like hire on personality and then train on the skill set. And if personality you've learned and grown up in your education to think about the kinds of things that you're teaching here in your program, that's the kind of thing that me personally I've always prioritized in the hiring that I've had of project managers. Dr. Saniq? I think I totally agree with Michelle. Now, probably all of us have heard red billion times. AI is not going to take your job. Somebody who has an AI skill will take your job. I think technology does play an important role. But as Professor Malzman, you said those people skills, leadership skills are actually more important because AI is not going to make those trade-offs and decisions for you. Or at least not the right ones, or you won't know what the black box is doing. So being able to use technology in your toolbox is a project manager's crucial. By the end of the day, you've got to bring the group of experts, their judgment, their decision making to the forefront, to the betterment of the project and to achieve project objectives and deliver value. So I think having this holistic approach in the CMT program helps because project managers not only get to learn from a textbook that I had authored called Construction 4.0, which is technology heavy versus how do you work in teams? How do you work in teams with conflicting agendas or perhaps different objectives and focus on what value the project is delivering? So I find that we have hopefully stuck the right balance in achieving a mix of technology, communication, leadership skills, basics of project management. And I must add, we've got to revise or at least add a new case study to our curriculum, which is the Warren Towers and bringing in those nuggets of wisdom Michelle into our classroom would be so useful. So this is an open invitation for you to either via Zoom or in person come to our classrooms and talk to our students because these are the kinds of examples that are not in our textbooks. These come from real practice and that's what going to make the experience of our students even more rich when they go to our program. Thanks, right. And they can. Yeah, thank you. I would love that. And you know, it's in our backyard. We have the site right here that folks could come and we could do something in the classroom and then come out and see it in real life, which I think is also a really wonderful experience. And see examples of how project management can result in real jobs too. I'm telling you have a team of 25 people here that and this is just one university in a city of many. So the job types and opportunities and possibilities again or so, rich and broad and rewarding that I think for folks to see it in real life action would be a really great. A grad. I'm all in. Come in. Okay. Good. We'd welcome you in several different courses where you can make a difference. Let's go to the question how and I'm going to answer it first and then let you expand on it. The B.U. Metz Curriculum aligns with industry needs is the root of the question. And I would actually go back to Michelle's comment on the iron triangle as some people call it, you know, scope, cost and time. We actually teach that that's central and important, but it's much smaller. It's a much smaller piece of a much bigger picture. We actually have something called a triple catalyst where we talk about project managers as change agents. But the foundations are timeless and important and it's still true that if you cut the budget, you'll probably have to either take longer or reduce the number of features in the case in the building and the construction project. I also want to mention AI and day literacy are now essential and integrated into our program. Sustainability is core. It's not an elective. We're involved into the courses that we teach in project management. Experiential learning is key for us. In fact, our courses now have the project management course has an AI workbook where critical thinking is the skill we're developing. So we encourage students to use AI. But we encourage it from the perspective of not doing your homework or writing a case study. But to practice context engineering and prompt engineering have them prompt AI. And what we're looking for is their judgment in analyzing what AI has given you, which could be complete good looking junk. And then of course the leadership or power skills remain critical. So I'll ask each of you. Actually, I think Professor Saunee will have more insight here. Do you have anything to add on the curriculum at BUMET? I think very well explained the kind of design principles we have used to develop the curriculum. The only other aspect I will say is construction is local as well as global in many ways. Global I was looking at a airport project, project teams and vendors and suppliers and experts were spread in 42 countries. Probably a billion dollar airport project. You would expect that kind of global reach. Similarly, it's very crucial to understand the local context. If you were in New York and the construction market, there is totally different yet. There are best practices that you can adopt globally. So we try to bring that flavor also. But I think we also try and bring that global flavor. Many for students come from countries like Kazakhstan, China, India and other global hubs where construction really is booming. The focus there is new construction rather than existing or a mission as you mentioned adaptive reuse or retrofitting existing assets. So we want to bring that kind of flavor also into the classroom. So there are students feel connected to the overall construction sector. And with this program, I think you have that global mobility. You can learn construction practices relevant in Boston, perhaps in the US. But if you learn a little bit about regulations, building bylaws and other local conditions, you can easily work in another major market either in the US or globally. So we keep bringing that aspect also into the curriculum. Okay. Good. I'm going to jump to two, combine two questions because they both really speak to what students want and what we think they need. And that is how important our data literacy, digital collaboration, tools like BIM, RAI driven modeling and systems thinking for the next generation of construction managers. And I'm combining that with what advice would you give students in preparing to enter this evolving field, particularly those studying construction management here at BU. So it's a loaded question. It's basically the different ingredients, how important are they? And then partner that with what advice you would give students who are preparing for a career and the education here at BU and construction management. I'll take a stab and I think I'll do them in the reverse order. I think my recommendation for you would be to keep a really open mind about all the possibilities where getting a degree like this could bring you in your career. I never would have predicted when I went to school for architecture that I would have ended up at a higher ed campus working more with project management. I never would have even envisioned that when I was in college. And the kinds of possibilities of places and types of work you can do with the kind of degree you're getting are absolutely endless. And you can go where your passion is at. Like I said, I'm really drawn to the mission of higher ed. I truly believe in it and it brings me great joy to wake up in the morning and know that's what I'm going to do. There's not a lot of people that can say I love going and doing what I do every day for work. So find your joy, find your passion and project management is a great fundamental underlying background to have and apply it in so many different types of careers. So I'll go from that to then answer the first part of the question is so if you're going to leave this big, broad open mind and understand that there really are endless possibilities. Even in design and construction, you could go interiors route, you could go furniture, you could go the construction side, you could go design side, you can go engineering and you can be a project manager in any one of those it can apply. I would say learn as much technical as you can while you have it available to you at your fingertips in a campus of education because the more you know, the more marketable you'll make yourself and the more fluid you can be in transferring skills across, you know, different elements of project management. So something like BIM. Do I use BIM? I don't know BIM. I know AutoCAD and I'm now a dying dinosaur. I almost want to, I like, I've been doing my job for 30 years. I should come back and take some of your classes and stay fresh and learn new things. Technology in my lifetime has changed extraordinarily and I think with AI is going to be your generation's extraordinary change. So as much as you can. can keep knowledgeable of it and learning the new things that are out there. It will just make your choices for how you apply everything you're learning more easy for you to find exactly where your passion and your fit is from this like really wonderful rich career. Excellent. Thanks, Dr. Sani. Sure. I think if you think about it, you can't build a building or an infrastructure asset without data. So having data skills, knowing where the data resides, how to keep the data updated, curated, maintain it and use it wisely is very crucial. So that's a good skill to have. Most of our students, luckily, are digital natives. So pick means for us, we don't want to date ourselves from folks who have seen DOS operating system to what's happening. Now picking up these new digital skills is not a big deal. You need to treat them as your tools or your assistants who can help to your work. I think in our program, we bring in freely, publicly available module on ProCore so that you can understand how ProCore is used on construction projects, similarly Autodesk Construction Cloud. So that can be used. We are now launching a new course on digital twins. We may use a tool called iTwins to show how you can build a twin for your building and run it as a dashboard. Now we have just joined the Oracle Academy to bring Oracle tools, especially Primavera and Crystal Ball and those kinds of tools to the classrooms. But remember, I keep saying tools because these are tools. The tools can change. Tools will continue to develop, but there are some basic skills, problem solving skills, understanding data and use of data, basic concepts that sit behind, 3D modeling or BIM. As a project manager, probably you will never author BIM model, but knowing that it exists, knowing how it is used, how it is maintained, updated and handed over to the occupier or the end user is something that you need to understand. So I think we do try to provide all those connected ideas in the various courses that we are offering under this program. Excellent. Thank you. I think we'll end with the last question, which seems logical. When you think about the legacy of BU's campus projects, what impact do you hope they'll have on both the university community and the city of Boston? I'm hopeful for the future of BU's legacy, particularly with this framework plan that we're building right now. I'm very excited to map a vision and understand impacts of choices that we may make to your point. That is so critical and what we're trying to do is help university leadership understand impacts that decisions will make. So not asking to make the actual decision, but as you make these decisions, understand the impacts that it can have on our physical campus here. I'm most excited to develop a little bit more of the public realm here at BU. We talk a lot about urban planning and BU being such an urban campus and it's very porous where it connects into the community and that makes for a wonderful rich experience. But also to give students a true experience of knowing where that here here is at BU. And truly understanding how the BU public realm experience could add to your exposure to the arts or your exposure to landscape. And I think that that's an area BU has done a great job developing its buildings, growing as a research institution and growing its academic programs. I think the public realm experience and how you can move around campus and have a really wonderful, rich, beautiful experience, I think bringing the concept of beauty and design to the experience of walking around BU campus is something I'm really excited about as an architect and designer. So I may not live to see all of the legacy, but I'm hoping to be part of the vision that's shaping the future of a new BU that's even better and stronger and an exciting experience here for students. Thanks. Thanks, Michelle. Dr. Sani. Very briefly. I'm told that you can spot the CDS building when you're landing in Boston. I've certainly driven, and from a distance you can see the building. Then I've walked into the building and we have held two conferences in the building. To just personally, to me, it has had such a major impact. I'm sure other users of the building students, visitors and others have had a similar impact. That's what has project managers, you can point to this is the building that I worked on. It's having a major shift in terms of vision, visibility and impact on the campus community and the broader community. It was very interesting we did a recording of AI and construction management videos for project management institute in that building. The constructor, one of the employees of the constructor, suffered construction, was part of the videos. It was amazing them telling about how that construction came about and the role of digital and AI in building these types of buildings. I think it's definitely a field where you can see your contributions. As Michelle said, you can't predict where you will end up in the sector, but you will be definitely doing great things if you join construction. Excellent. I'll wrap things up with a quick story I have from teaching a course in communications and leadership, project management communications and leadership. In the communications building, which is across the street from the construction site of the CDS. I'm telling the students all about team building and recognition and celebrating interim success and deliverables and low and behold, just when I'm covering the idea of milestones and celebrating interim deliverables, not just the end of the project, but when something major happens and recognizing the team, what happens? Is there a gigantic festival because the iron work was all complete? The frame of the building was done. At that point, literally when I'm talking about it, I told just, "Let's go over to the windows and look at what's happening." They were picnic tables set up. They had a barbecue for all the workers, not just executives, but all the workers. There's a lot they have music set up and they're playing music and having barbecue sandwiches and celebrating the fact that although the building is not done, look at what we've done so far. It was just one of those moments when karma chips in and you're trying to teach a topic and there's a full-blown display in real time in front of the students just by looking out the windows. That was just to me a moment when I was not even—that was before we started the construction efforts here. It was just a really like a revelation that what a great chance to teach through what you're seeing on this campus, which goes all the way from Fenway Park through what used to be Cadillac dealerships all the way into Brookline. It's kind of interesting to see the variety of construction and construction learning that can take place on the campus. I think we're going to wrap up here because otherwise we'll talk for three or four hours. There's a lot to talk about. There's a lot to brag about. There's a lot to think about if you're in this business. So I want to thank Oniel and Michelle for their participation in their insight and I hope that our viewers and listeners will take a lot away from this conversation on construction and project management. Thank you very much. Have a great day. [BLANK_AUDIO]