Episode 5: Disorganised Chaos vs Real Strategy in FM & Real Estate with Russell Woods

Hello and welcome to the Spark London podcast, Real People, Real Talk, Real Estate. I'm your host, Vince Simpson, founder of Spark London, project strategists and managers. Join me as I sit down with industry experts, leaders, consultants, specialists and perhaps even the odd contrarian. Please note that nothing in our episode's constitutes as advice, it's purely for your entertainment and inspiration only. Now put the kettle on, make a cup of tea or your favourite overpriced ground coffee and let's meet today's guests. Hello and welcome back to today's episode where I'm joined by Russell Woods or Russ. Russ has got a 20-year career spanning property and facilities management, primarily in legal sectors but also the media sectors. Russ, great to have you here. Thanks, have it me. How was your weekend? Yeah, we can good, we can good, little bit nervous ahead of this. Oh, you should be this, just a chat. I know, I know, I think. But yeah, we can good. Family time. We're good. Nice, really important. Yeah, really important. The thing with the workload tried to maintain that balance of switching off doesn't come easily. I know. To some people, yes, to some people. But yeah, are you full? Good. Well, field disclosure, we have worked together in the past on a fairly modest but important project for years ago. We might touch on that, maybe not because we're not here to talk about that, but we are here to talk about a few things and maybe we can start with a five minute abridged version of your career history. Because you've got quite a wide kind of experience. How did you get into what you're doing? How did you get into this room today? Oh, so I think we probably will touch on that project that way, but we'll say we're way back to that. I am one of those that started in facilities and very much fell into it. I think qualification degree wise, that never happened. It was GCSEs. I wanted an extra year at school, not to be educated, but I enjoyed playing football for the school. So I wanted a lot more year plans for football. Make it work for you. Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure it's worth actually. And then wanting to get into sort of London work in, starting off as a barista's clerk, but it's all got a little bit of sense of what is law look like from a, I guess, a clerking perspective. And then took a obviously as assistant role at law firm, Milsen Reeve, which I guess generally more office administration, but I think what I really quite liked is the ability that no two days are the same and you're quite varied as opposed to being really, really structured. And I think as sort of career's gone on, that's something quite enjoy. Which I guess is the property industry generally, right? No two days are of a really, absolutely absolutely. Very inch off somewhere things, but I think that's what I was going to say. So did eight years at Milsen Reeve did well. It was a small niche office that sort of elevated relatively quickly and enjoyed what I did at the young age. Left there to a 5250 close brothers asset management, was there five years and within a year of that, it was promoted to a head of role. So, yep, I think accelerated quickly, but probably there was a little bit of consideration that there's some ability there. But I think there's real moment for me a year into into that role at close brothers to learn, quick and use networks to my advice. And I think that's fair to say you probably accelerated in hindsight quicker than one would have anticipated. So at five years and varying reasons, time to move on. And I think I probably look back at the gap in my experience from an operational perspective where I've elevated relatively quickly. I needed to bridge a gap on probably bigger portfolio, bigger budgets, big projects. So I took a role at a creative media company on Regent's Place estate. It was quite interesting when sort of recruiting, what I'm looking for role was always sort of banded, I'll rush you see, because you're a corporate, you'll be corporate guy. I was like, I don't want to be badged as the corporate guy, because actually I feel that I've got enough sort of ability to flex culturally and deliver the disciplines of real estate and FM across different industries. So it was keen to not be the corporate guy. But you could sort of to jump in there, but you could probably appreciate that because from law and finance, course brothers, you know, finance and asset management, kind of does ring corporate, right? Absolutely, absolutely. And I think I always look at five, 10 years ahead. So I don't just sit in a moment. Yeah. It's got a role that that media business, I think was 250,000 square foot across a couple of buildings. Very agile, pretty COVID, big projects in a pipeline and COVID struck. Yeah, so I saw a panic station. What does that have to do with that? I've noticed the role look like, so it felt it's significantly vulnerable, but I was fortunate enough to be part of the future plan in the big projects. My role was sort of safe within that area. And the world needs to go on, right? Absolutely. Maybe we can touch on that, but the world has to go on, maybe slightly reshaped some projects or some motivation behind projects, but things have to happen. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we as a business, we were taking for that particular project, around 330,000 square foot of real estate, massive project. So consolidating small offices into one. Yeah. And during a time of COVID, we probably ended up strategy was that we ended up subletting or looking to sublet more than we was occupying. And I think fortunately, got sort of a point, sort of during that pandemic. On the estate, there was another large organisation in the media that wanted to expand. We wanted to walk away and therefore they were sort of a tripartite deal that was probably the biggest. Make it up, right? Bulletin, dodged, in real estate, history, for that business I was working for. And whilst personally disappointing, we was quite far advanced, contracted about start and site, so a lot of work gone into it prior. We then started to reinvest in our existing premises. And so one door closes, another opportunity to add some real value, some sort of significant cost to improve the perfect timing. Yeah, absolutely. One coach sometimes. So real moment in those four or four and a half years, maybe we talked, such on sort of cultures, very very different and learn a lot from that sort of industry. Yeah. But I think probably felt that I'm better suited to more professional service structure. So moved from there back into law and here I am now. Yeah indeed. Well, we all touch on that actually. Yeah. Maybe let's get into it right now. So someone that's that's going to stood out to me over a research in your career is the professional services. Okay. But professional services and law, I'm about to find out. So in our set of management, versus professional services in media, I mean, I, it's a bit crude, but the arguably opposite ends of the skill in terms of culture, demographic perhaps, expectation. Talk to me about that because I can just imagine big differences in how you operate it. Yeah, I think I might quite this earlier, but I think professional services law is organized, is structured, it's, it's well thought through. Yeah. My experience of the role in media was, was chaos. So not organized chaos. I think it's, that's organized chaos. Yeah, absolutely. So I think it was a group company and brands was, I guess quite autonomous in how they operated within the building. So I guess for my right, I guess you could have felt like a landlord and they were occupiers of a, yeah, sure. But actually we are one business. But different brands. Yeah, different brands, different CEOs, different strategies. So when you're sort of undertaking projects of we verbs and fit out some of it, it wasn't perhaps as quite joined up in the project, say, here project, but it was very much an isolation. We need this. We need it now. So whilst I ain't, you know, the time element of turning around projects wasn't so much of an issue, but it was a lot of organic change and churn. So you deliver a project to the fit out perspective and then the CEO comes in, doesn't like it when he's ripping pieces and doing it again. Yeah, but not quite the experience of the professional services. This is a strategic vision of a move or a stay with organic growth. And this is how we're going to measure our sort of our business. So very, very different. I, my experience tells me that from a professional service, they understand better what we do in the industry in terms of real estate or property workplace FM. I media, I'm going to take granted. I think there is an age demographic. It's a lot younger than demographic of media. Yeah, sort of generational change. And whilst there are obviously a young generation, maybe in support functions in the sort of professional services law, it feels like the media has if did a sort of an average age range, it would be lesser than that. And I think that plays into some of that thinking as well. Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that. I've done, I've done law projects over my 20 years and I've done the what used to be by TNT. It's now covered a hell of a lot, right? Demographic, I'll certainly get, but not only just at the, let's call it the the junior rank, so to speak, but even some of the seniors and some of the media or tech firms have got far younger leadership these days, as opposed to what I would imagine the leadership demographic of a mature law firm would have. Very different kind of outlooks. 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Mae'r gwaithio yn ymwch i'r gwaithio, yn ymwch i'r gwaithio, yn ymwch i'r gwaithio, yn ymwch i'r gwaithio, yn ymwch i'r gwaithio, yn ymwch i'r gwaithio. llawer, it'r gladaf, ac roedd忽iau. Sut McFос Covid cwyl jad diwynych ear eich sydd eu cymrydd eu'r cymryddio fel ei gyddiol. Ie'r cymryddio fel ei gyddiol. O'r cymryddio fel ei gyddiol. I'm really not just what I do in my reflection of the my career of the difference between project management and project strategy. Not to keep banging on about that because the listeners will be sick of that. But I do have to ask a question about defining it. I do. I do fundamentally think there is a difference. We are very much in a reactive industry. But I think it's also a symptom of, a big statement symptom of society, but it's a symptom of the pace that we're forced to move at. And sometimes people don't have the time or the resource to think. And they've got to rush into situations. Doesn't make it right. We should take a breath and step back a bit. I think we all fall off that. Yeah. Yeah. Because you caught up with that. I'd sort of give you some advice to the team racing it about live CV. Yeah. I'd say we're going well. Paced here. We know we would. I know you're telling us it. Around it's so easy to just get caught up in this. It's what happens to well when you go and you know. And so it's all about people's development and career. It's actually had this live CV and start catching stuff as you go along. Because if you don't make that time to just reflect and take a step back in four or five years, whatever career plan is. Yeah. It's sort of fundamentally forget all of the amazing stuff that you've done in a career. Because you're just on this will and will and I do think there's creating moments, diaries, Dave, whatever it is. Just to reflect that. Yeah. That's what we all do. Some amazing stuff. Yeah. It's on my team sort of. Probably bored of it now. But sort of anecdotal stories. I tell them. And I sort of said to regurgitate a reminder myself and what I've done in a career. But also that helps one percent in their thinking. And I think that's a good news learning there. And you can take that. If you want to take it, you will. 1090. Come onto that. We will get them. So I think reflection is really, really important. Yeah. And taking that step back. And I'm not amazing at it. And I think I need to get better. Yeah. I don't think anyone is amazing at it. No. I've not known when I've come across at least. But there's a stage process to that. There's a shelf where we're on this piece. To be able to then reflect. So that's kind of number one. Which might get us to the to the 90th and real. But let me go a bit deeper on that question. So again, given your experience across the different firms and different demographics. Do you think people reflect differently or not reflect at all? And do you notice a difference in the type of demographics that you interact with or have interacted with? Yeah, I don't. I don't. I'm not sure it's demographic thing. I mean, we're probably on a slightly, you know, we're not. I don't even know the names of all the generations and Zs and X and Ys. And so I don't know where we sit in that. That's in the same category. Yeah. Let's go. And we're why. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't think people do reflect. And I think that comes inherent. I think as if you want to reflect, you are probably a particular type of person that wants to learn from that reflection and go again and adapt. And I guess individually undertaking your lessons learned around where it's just life or career. Yeah. So I don't mean people do it. But I do think there is a, you know, whilst businesses have performance with you and all that, you know, be sure if you ask 95% of the people they will react because you've just been sent a HR email to ask, do you promise for you that you've not been actually doing it from the day after the last one and start doing a live CV, right? Never happens. Surely not. That might be said, but do open that email and just start putting it inside. And that just becomes a reminder of the reflection. So we are going off east here a little bit, which is a good thing. Something that I was taught twice in actual fact over my career. Once when I was at, come on, tieros, which is no me centiures, that's where I started my FETO career. There was a senior leader there called Steve Ritt, who's the huge respect for who's a big name in the industry. You taught all of us in the business, quite a viable lesson. You can work for a brand, but your personal brand is so, so important and you've got to keep maintaining your personal brand. Again, I don't do it perfectly, but I'm working on it. It's something you've got to continue to work on, right? Versus your corporate brand and your corporate persona and all that kind of stuff. Think that's kind of. what you're what you're sooner that you've got to really be working on yourself. Yeah, I agree. But if I'm reading between the lines, not everyone does. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's that. Okay, so great. I think that's that, that getting it. Some people are amazing on LinkedIn. Some people are amazing at events. Some people. Yeah. And I'm certainly not that. I think I have a lot, a lot to do in that world in the industries too. Well, I'm a star of a podcast. See how we go. Yeah, there's plasters one all over the place. But so I don't, I don't mean to do. And I think that's the, there's an inherent wired piece around. Does that matter? Mm-hmm. You know, this is what we're talking about. Career in a context of a big world of life. Yeah. So actually, how important is that in comparison to your life? So I think there's a, yeah, some really, really good people that do it impeccably well. Yeah. I don't do it as well as I should. I've always been quite strategic with sort of personal networking. Yeah. So sort of going back to that early sort of close brothers elevated role day. I had to learn quick to lean on people. So I'm a expert. Yeah. Arguably I'm a expert now, but I have really, really good network of people I trust. Yes. Consultants, non-consultants, suppliers, whatever that looks like. Yeah. And, you know, we've not worked together for a long time, but we've stayed in contact. Yeah. And there's a reason for staying in contact. So I guess I do that on a more strategic individual basis, not just when I need something, but actually I know the people around me who I trust and respect. Yeah. And I think that would be happy to pick up a phone even after five, six years and it'd be welcome to coffee. Yeah. Because there's sort of this built relationship that we've sort of built over previous years. So I do that slightly different way, but recognize, I care about that. Yeah. I do care about my own sort of unique way. Whereas, yeah, perhaps something we don't, don't feel a need to because they're not that weighing in terms of what does career it like for them. So we're going a bit deeper on that then. What are we seeing? The importance of true relationships versus let's call it professional relationships that you've kind of got to keep. I'm a big believer and there've been two very different things. Yeah, I agree. I have one. I have one. People buy people. Yes. People buy into people. Yeah. I remember the project that close brothers were. We were at lease hold on a business part. We had some part, part part, part of the business part was horrendous, new to particular. Business that was accelerating so sort of employment growth was significant. Our staff couldn't park. We had big bit land and we built a car park and we was bidding for that. And against free contractors. One contractor is a smaller regional contractor that I worked closely with, no DMD. Second contractor really loved the individual presenting who I had known before. Third contractor, they did really well, but just there was that sort of gut feel didn't work. So I was really torn about who to sort of cure with. And the MD of the business that I really liked the model of. It sort of focused regionally, not big national and sort of two Finley spread. Run me and said, Russ, I know we've just bid with a never contractor and you like a particular person. Just to let you know he's joining us in two months time. Oh, wow, right. So I sort of got one or one in there and then by luck. And then that individual, you know, what do I do? I might go now. I've not validated but Oliver Thomas, that's back at where he was there. He moved. He's gone back, but he's seen him roll. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And similarly, haven't spoke to him or instructed him for many years, but I'd pick up the phone and tips. And there's that real relationship and so many two things. So, you know, we did a, that project was if you look at in a context of square footage and sort of financial. It wasn't. Yeah, however, the importance of that project in the context of the organization and the journey where I started. Actually, it was probably just a significant of some of these big multi million project. So, yeah, because there was a new part of the business that was all an opportunity. Yeah, it was and it was a sort of real sort of growth and investment management strategy. Yeah. And, yeah, so I am a importance to the business. Forget square foot, forget head cover. Actually, it was probably one of the bigger projects have been involved in purely because of the meaning to the business. Yeah, not as a sort of a property relocation. Yeah, peace. So, yeah, it's, it's not funny. You see that. But again, something that I've always focused on is the need for the business. Why is the business doing the project? And I often think that we've for consultants and contractors, we say to that, they just think it's okay. It's fee. It's a client that's a brand that's a LinkedIn post, it's a case study. Let's go straight to project and just do it. I've always tried to at least think right here, but what's the why? Why is the business doing this in the first place? And if you can, and that's a respect of square feet. Sadly, we're in a world where square feet matter. That's the benchmark or if you're a contractor construction value matters. That's the benchmark. But for me, it's more about why is the project happening? Yeah. And then I can get my head around it. And that fee doesn't go at the window and all that kind of stuff. It doesn't. But it's right. We've got a goal to fix now. We've got a goal to achieve what's get stuck in and do that. And that's always been how I've gone about my project. So, I think the question is about that sort of investment in people. So, that people buy people for me. But another consultant in the industry. And I'd check to him this morning if I can say his name. Because he's been, he's been remarkable inspirational in my journey. So, when we talk about close friends, I was elevated quickly. This guy saw something in me. And he still speaks to me. So, I'm hoping I've done him proud in a career. Well, you will have done if you still, you still and dialogue. Absolutely. And he's a guy called Andy McStrabbit. And he, I looked up and still doing all of him in how he. He articulates himself, how he conducts himself, how. There's no sort of bravado in meetings around who Shalce Loud is. There's about a quality of how he presents himself and how he cuts through it. And I think I would always similarly, he retires. I think there's that relationship we've built over the years. I could pick up a phone and say, Andy, look. Yeah, what do you think? What do you think? And recent that we asked him to piecework or dig something out, which he's provided. So, I think that people buying people that will relationship. Will stand me, I think, in good stead. And yeah, agreed there, you know, you will need to contract with consultants. And some of the bigger players. But I, yeah, I have a real sort of strong view on people like and looking in the eye and pick up the phone. And they'll react because they, they care. Yeah. They care about me on a product that they're working on or what a contract is opposed to. Potentially, it's just another client. Hello, me again, short turn to wrapped. I just wanted to give a few seconds to our sponsors. Yes, it's us, Spark London. At Spark London, we are not just project managers, we are project strategists. And yes, there is a huge difference. Clients come to us to avoid the same old project mistakes, cost over runs and delays by thinking strategically about the project. To find out more, visit us at spark.landon or find us on LinkedIn. All links from the show notes. Now back to the conversation. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about the pros and cons of internal resource versus external. We're in an industry where we've got to rely on external, consultant contractors, etc. We can't do it all in house. What do you, what do you think about that in terms of what makes a good consultant, I guess, is my question. A sort of acid question here, I guess. So I have a real strong belief in people development. I work across companies where I think we've got some, it's talent internally. There's so much skill set, not to say they can replicate the role of a consultant. But I do feel it as businesses. It's so easy to just say, right, four package consultant, four package consultant, four package. It's supposed to look at what actually what does our in house model look like. Yeah. And how much we couldn't support an outsourced model, but really look at your people internally because they're the ones that stay post project. They're the ones you want to invest in. And they just, you know, we pay big money to consultants. That's what we do. But there's a really good people doing a lot of good work internally. And I've, I've seen experience where, you know, in in house resources to pick and up pieces of consultants. Yeah. Like shouldn't quite be in reflected financially of that. But actually, arguably could have done a nice sort of blended approach model with consultant. So sort of land that there because I, I have a big believer, I think there's in house talent. How many of work for now? I've got abundance of really, really great talent. And again, you know, whether they want to learn from what we're doing now and take that forward, I think we'll be test telling of them as individuals and how they sort of take their career forward. And what makes good consultant, I, I, we will talk a bit about this, maybe enough that the wants to care and invest and embed into the client. Now I'll go. So I've always been in-house, so my focus is the business I'm contractually employed by and to deliver to. Therefore, I'm invested in that and I'm contractually implicated to do that. I think if you, there are times in which you are not a big fish in a small pond, but you're a small fish in an ocean and therefore I think you can fill that. So I think, and I look at that in terms of FM procurement as well, you know, you can go to the biggest biggest players out there on TFM contracts or whatever I'd be, but you want to matter, you want a voice, you want to be important, you always want to be in that top three top five. Yeah, right, so I think there's sort of being relative to the the consultancy that you're working with. So have you felt that? Have you felt that on your team and various projects and places? I think some, I won't, you know, I've seen my talk specific projects I have now is that because I have an expectation rated in others, I don't know, but I think there's certainly times where and even, you know, projects consultants FM procurement, I've certainly felt that and that's sort of the learning over the years, if I want to feel important, how do you get reassurance that we do matter, we do have a voice, but actually, you know, I know PM, you know, as you will know, and as a process and there's criteria is absolutely that's what makes a successful project, but for me, it needs to feel different, it needs to feel like there's a care and a want and a, this is more than just a tick box exercise, there is that real investment. So, you know, in-house, got people are really invested in the business, and arguably that, that no one wants investment, I think probably out shines, maybe in some cases the competence of a consultant that aren't invested back into the business. So for me, what is it? What makes it good? So I think having that investment, that real care, is something that, if I was a consultant, I'd absolutely deep dive into the business and treat it, and I don't know, I'm not a consultant, but treat it or that's who I'm employed by, as opposed to I'm employed by multiple when I need to spread 33% and I work in weeks or three times. Yeah, yeah, totally get that. I think I've always thought it's horses for courses. There will be clients, whether it be occupiers or landlords, whoever it may be, that I've got either the pipeline or the square footage or the relationships, whatever it may be, that they will go to some of the top firms or the bigger firms. And I get it and it works, but I've been at some of those firms, which were absolutely fantastic, got to say, and that's when we worked together when I was at one of those firms, and it's brilliant, but when I kind of look at what Spark does and some of our smaller competitors, you know, the SME type of boutique firms, it's a very different thing. And I've kind of got two questions off this. Question number one is, do you feel that sometimes where, certainly where you are and you see different consultants, there's a bureaucracy, tick-a-box process driven approach to project management. Yes. And then my follow on question is G A S and what it means, and I know that you'll know what that means, but can I get me there on my thinking? Yeah, I think so. I think there is a project there's practical completion, we've got to get there, we've got to go through the hoops and that's how we do that. Would I, and I think I'm unique, then so you'll probably agree that I'm quite unique in terms of the exact relationship. Which isn't a bad thing, I've got quite high expectations myself about sound and things when it comes to the project and property and we should keep our own standards. And I, you know, things go wrong in projects and I think how do you conduct self-handle it? Now I get frustrated if things don't always go to plan, I don't think I'll always show it, but I sort of links into the G A S piece, but if I'm really frustrated and irritated by something that's gone wrong, I'd expect to see a consultant in that sort of similar frustration. And not just a dismissive, and I get there's got to be a professional element this, right? I'm not sure if I'm going to throw it away that way. So I do, yes, I do feel that there is a tick box process and that's probably why I'd never be a good consultant because I've not been able to take in boxes, great new ones, but and then the G A S, can we use language? We're a podcast. So people will be wondering what it is. Yes, G A S and this is give a shit. And I, and we'll talk about the theories in a minute, when I've interviewed before for roles, they talk about what you're good at and I'm not really good at selling myself, but I think they may come. That's what's going to change that. Well, I saw it through a side or four or as good. But when we talk about what are your weaknesses or your development areas, I've always I'm really passionate, I really care. And I think over the years, I've managed that reaction and frustration much better than I did in my earlier years. Probably a bit too vocal. And now I'm just more strategically vocal when things go around. So and that's the piece where I just led up to around all the investment bit is that you really give a shit about the product that you're working on. I really give a shit about it. And about my profile, my perception and delivering to a standard that is it sustainable, possibly not, but I'll keep trying to sort of achieve a level. Because that one point of one of those people career wise that what I do as best as I can, knowing to the best of my ability, I think sometimes there's an unreasonable expectation. I expect everybody to be wired that way, which yeah, I don't think 100% of the population are. I thought I'd think they are. So I do think that really caring about it. Now that's not to say that I'd be expecting people to be all weekend thinking about stuff and that there's definitely a balance of life and this is a part of life I get that. But in terms of delivery on big projects and where you're paying fees and there's an expectation, I think sort of feeling that care from external parties is something that I'd be I think it's missing in some situations or some projects, but I'd like to feel more. It's almost surprising because I can relate to that. I'd like to think I am one of those people when I remember you, I don't know if you remember this. So we, women's on that project in May fair and won't talk about the DB contractor. And I mean it's the first time. So whilst I, you know, we we've sort of secured an instructor juice or PM, go through tender process, that's all I think absolutely right contracting was on site. I don't know if it was week two or three. And I saw a different things, but that was a moment of wow okay. I mean this project so when I know 100% that you as an individual, the business you work for, tackle projects of much more significance, yeah, the size and scale of it in terms of facts of square-furt and numbers and probably all for you. And I don't know, 78, 9, we fit our con number. But there was a moment where you demonstrated this real care irrespective of all of it. You could have, you know, if you don't have a project, you could have put all your energy over it. But I mean that was a real moment for me. And probably where that respect from to me to you in what you do in your care and your passion is probably why we align. Yeah come from now. Did I, did I think you at a time when a little bit heavy-handed probably? But equally, I was probably, you know, this is sort of eight, nine years back. And therefore if we'd done that now I would have said, well, we should have done it early, if it's probably. Yeah, this can't be right for me. Yeah, absolutely. So there's definitely a moment there actually. Okay, so that's what I wasn't prepared for that. No, I wasn't digging it out on the other side. I'm going to take that as a backhanded compliment. I think. Yeah absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. But to give context to that, I I've got quite a unique background. And I'm not going to get into this to detail because these listeners will have heard it before. But I know what's possible. And I've got military experience of what contractor experience. So when some challenges present themselves and some individuals or companies or whatever it may be are intent on finding the problems with no solution or just trying to throw the problem in someone else's direction. And we do have problems on projects every single day. But that's where where I get frustrated because I know what can be done. If everyone's looking in the same direction and everyone puts aside their ex-el spread sheet or the tick box or whatever they've got to do and goes, how can we actually achieve that? I know nine out of ten times is possible. Yeah. If we all thought about it differently. And that's where sometimes I maybe get a bit south-off. Maybe the world I would use. Let's go for a search here for the perhaps of that. Let's go with a search of. Professionally as a search. And it's not for everyone. I'll get on. No, it's not for everyone. But I'm probably nine terms at a turn right. We can't actually achieve that if we thought I'd better. - Bill's out there. - And we get there. I'm a goal-focused guy. - Yeah, I agree with Salish. I had put his sounds at something. It gives a shit versus maybe people that don't give a shit right. - So that's just summary to take away then, yeah. - That's right. - Let's move on from that, or build on that, I should say. 'Cause you picked me on the spot. The Russell wasn't expecting that, thank you. - Well, it's a collaborative, so that's it. - Yeah, no, definitely. - But let's build on that. You've got a 10% and 90% rule. Now there's a few people I know that I've got this. I've got one. They're all slightly different. I'm not gonna hear about yours. - Okay, so I've been talking about this for years. And I talk about it so confidently people believe it. And I probably believe in one, I do actually feel it. So, but we're gonna go with it. - Well, this is a moment to land. - You've got me on board. - Yeah, you've got me on board. - And I remember we spoke about it. It would be good to sort of overlay with something you're thinking. - I, and it's probably maybe too simplistic. We've touched on some points. For me, the professional career, you could adopt it for life career. I think you just made up of two buckets of professionalism, sort of individuals. 10% top high end achievers in terms of traits and behaviors. And then 90%. Obviously there's amazing people in 90% throughout. So this isn't the end of 10% of you. Then you've only got, it's not hard and fast rule. It's more of a general rule. - No, and I, and when I've been asked like now on a podcast, I'll just play that every time I was very well, when I'm pressured. - I'm worried you're feeling it. - Yeah, because I, I, there's something to me about getting it. Just getting it. And the GAS piece is within that 10%. And I, I don't believe that the 10% is sort of COs MDs. I think you've got some amazing people that are wired with DNA that can see things holistically, work at place, they can connect across the business that they work in and not, they're not see things just in isolation. I said, I think, yeah, I think you're wired in a way. And I mean, for those people, it's how those life lessons, I try to, because those, and those stories is, 'cause I want to continue to remember lessons learned and adopt and apply and adopt and apply and learn. Because actually in those lessons learned, there's some amazing stuff that you want to keep adopting and applying. It's not just about what's gone wrong. - Yeah. - Actually, focus on what's gone wrong. - And I have a lot of stuff that does go right on the industry. We are on a great industry. - Yeah. - And I, what songs are harder than it to be something? - Yeah, I think so. There's keep it simple. I'd keep talking about the Kiss Model at the minute to be able to keep things simple. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So, actually, I think we, we sort of, we can have wrenching everything very, very quickly. So yeah, I think there's a, you are wired in a way. I don't think you can teach it. I think you've got it or you don't. And if you've got it, is how'd you grab it and take it forward? But I do sort of an emotional piece. I do think that real, want, will, care is probably the, where that step up into a level is. Now that's okay, because I think you know, you're 90% that's amazing. I don't think that's it. And I was on a phone recently with a consultant who I clearly hammered this point to. And, okay. Even cheese now said, oh, it's sort of sorry Russ, it's not 10% behavior. I'm not in a club like you now. She thinks I'm in a club like guess by this theory, I need to put myself in a club. It'd be really something not to. But there's no sort of validation of this. Or it could be on the 91% cost maybe. - Yeah, it's okay, it's okay. - It's okay. - Yeah, yeah. But it's all I guess is that, is it being winded, is dialed in, is connecting. There's getting ahead of, you know, even if it's just diary management, you know, that conversations can't be - Yeah, give us some examples. Or give me on the last, some examples. - Yeah, it's difficult to convince, but I mean, I have a big believer strategically bumping into people for the benefit of you and your outcome. Like if you know you can't get a meeting in a dior of someone, find out when you're going to pop and have a coffee, right? If you need something. And this is just sort of proactive look ahead. So I'd talk about, I had a colleague recently in, you know, kitchen, canteen, stuff. That's the worst set of this table. And sort of his response was, well, it's going to be disruptive. There's a lot of people and there's a queue. It's like that's the point. I think it's actually, you start hearing, you know, we're a service that runs buildings and projects. And what do we get to think of it and start listing and getting ahead of it and be proactive? And I said, actually, in a half an hour, we'll probably catch three or four people where you've got work to do with them and close out elements of your work. You might hear issues that aren't being sort of forth known. So I think it's just about continuing to change the dior when here and connect. And I think my role as a wonderful compliment I had and I'm not sure I'll ever get there, but it was a close-power as a guy said to me, you have the ability to hold, how my head is, so how I sort of process things to get CEO up. You're an operator and you can connect, you can connect that conversation's over here. And then a project on my account at the moment, I sort of maybe doing my self-adhesive service, but that's just all I'm doing is joining dots. And quite big dots, let's go with it. - Yeah, yeah. - But there's a problem here and there's a problem here. And I'm hearing the noise and need to bring it together and I'm picking this sort of stuff. And I think there's that natural, I've heard that and I can't let that go. And I don't know, that means something to me. It's my team, I know that means something to someone there. It's just that getting it, I think it's just this sort of real pace or care and will, I said I'm contractual, I'll be able to do the best I can as an individual for the team that I work with and promote and profile. But I think as a, it's DNA, you're wired, and don't be in contrainy, if you've got it, it's about how do you want to evolve that in your career. Now I talked about right, I've been appreciating based on that answer, it's gonna be about free pages. So I mean, so I'm like, (laughing) Yeah, one page, I think it's all about one page, isn't it work? Yeah, I think there's something there. Now I've, I've chewed the fat with this, you being one. And I think this has been four or five years of me. I've said it so much, I sort of believe there's this carve out of what does that tend to be. - Shall we write a book? Shall we do it together? - I think we should. - I think it's the suck up, right? - There's an expression of, yeah, an expression of me and then we're also gonna write a book to go. There's a collab. - Or a, or a, or a, or a extended leaflet for a heart. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, double sided. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, color. So that's how I, I think there's, and I'm a believer of that, and I need to one pick it more. But interestingly, I, I, so to very, very high former in current organisation, I'd chewed fat with him on his. And he slightly discreet and he thinks this 10, 10, 80. - All right, okay, I'm dressed up. - But I'm gonna take away that he agrees as a 10. - Okay, so I'm gonna be, can't understand what, there's a lot of tenage there as someone in the middle of it. - Yeah, I think it's just that sort of celebration. - So I think there's something there. I think if you're in the 90, you're amazing. You know, this isn't a, you know, you're not, but it just, and I'm gonna say it's not a city, it doesn't have to be C.I.s or it's just people that dialed in and get really care, really passionate, really, really, you know, shit. - Yeah. - And also there's this one to understand your, what you do for the business and it matters to the business. And I just, like I said, there's a respond to it and understands that your work matters to others. - Yeah. - So can I build on that not to, to kind of over label this point, but it's a question and a statement at the same time, 'cause I see it and I wonder if you agree that some people say the 90%, they're happy to stay in their lane. They are, here's what I'm getting paid to do. That's my job, that's my company behind me. That's what I'm here to do. Not that first of it was happening in the lane next to them. Whereas a more strategic person, you're a clearly strategic person. I, over the last, since I started to spark, have really started to switch my thinking to more of a strategic thought process. Still working on it, 'cause I am a project manager by trade. All right, and I'm still an ex-soldier and an ex-contractor. It's hard to shake off sometimes, but actually in the industry, I'm in for the clients and the relationships I want to build, I need to be more strategic. And that's where I want to put my energy. I've got to look in the other lanes. And not just the other lanes, but I've got to look way ahead and think about what, way back. It's kind of like a three-dimensional model. That's going, I visualise it. So there's my statement, would you agree that most people are happy just staying in the lane? - Yeah, absolutely. And I don't mean anything wrong with that. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fine, and that's that maybe, I'll say ambition, because I think you can define ambition in different ways. And people can't be ambitious in the role they do to do it. So this isn't a, so I probably would say ambition, I guess, there's just career growth, maybe ambition. - So aspiration? - Possibly, possibly. But yeah, and I think that's fine. I guess for me, what we do, we need to hear, we need to have our ears and eyes, we do industry externally, internally. And like I said, going back to how it all started, no two days the same. I think that's for me why I enjoy doing what I do, what we do, is that it is so dynamic, and there's so much to it to learn and to understand. - I mean, it's for future looks like an industry, right? - Ah, amazing. - So no, nothing wrong with staying in lanes. class to tell people. in terms of projects just stay in line actually. - You know, right. - It's really an execute project, stay in line. So maybe it's a conflict into that. So that's the theory. - How do we, as an industry though, help people get out of the lane sometimes. I kind of feel a, and this is gonna be the sort of fourth time you'll pull off how this one is broadcast, but we're British. We love to stay in a lane, we love a bit of red tape. We don't want to upset or offend anyone. I use the word the set off. So the other people might use a different word, but at the end of the day, we're all getting paid loads of money for doing a job. Sometimes we can do better at it. How do we fix it? If I was to put you on the spot right now and to right, how do we kind of get the industry where we know it should be? Like that, how do we do it? - I'd love to say don't hide things, 'cause I'm not sure how they are actually. I think people, it's hard, isn't it? 'Cause we're talking about people, as individuals. I don't, from an industry, net work, a piece of lots of really good stuff out there, and as individuals and management and leadership, we want to keep promoting and pushing and pushing. I thought a lot of people are being uncomfortable and being comfortable, and being uncomfortable, push yourself, push yourself down, because I can't remember where I've heard that sound, quite like that one. Recently done some stuff, but isn't natural to me. Did I enjoy it? No. Will I benefit from it? Yes, will I have to do it again? - Yes. - Yes. - Because I'm in a model when I want that sort of career development piece in there, but that's what's gonna have to happen. I'm happy to push myself. - Yeah, industry-wise, I'm sure there's lots of good stuff. I think there's more investment in. - What about training? - So I had to cut across you though. Because you mentioned it earlier, and I kind of wonder if there's not enough training or mentorship or encouragement to use the metaphor again, you know, look outside your lane, and actually try and connect these dots, these strategic dots, as funny because that is literally a slide in my capability statement about joining the industry. - Exactly. - Does it go out unless you're confirmed to anybody watching? - No one or two might be watching. - And you're not saying that we have not done that. - No, not at all. - But there is dots to be joined. And I wonder if the industry is encouraging people to think that way. - Yeah. - I mean, I've been, you know, sort of people development. I've been mentored in the industry. I've been very, very fortunate with good, good line managers. I've had, you know, I don't have any horror stories. Some people talk about our managers and didn't support me. I've been blessed with good people, met an ex-boss few weeks back, talking to most of them and I've been really well looked after. So I feel like in my own way, that strategic network in for me, I still get that level of mentorship across various sort of individual support processes. Internally, there's mentoring schemes and I put myself as a mentor to people. So I really believe in mentoring. And I think you're right, I don't know if there is enough of it in the industry because we're stuck, you know, within the current business, like I'm mentor in a generic, it's not industry specific. - Yeah. - So I think there's definitely something there. I haven't tapped into what that looks like across various. - Sure. - So what governing bodies in the industry was I don't have them ricks or whatever it might be. - Yeah, yeah. - And how this, you know, I fall into sort of FM, I was rolled out of bed, what a job this looks all right. - It's quite interesting. - Here you are. - Well, I'm dead of what kind of stuff. I'll get a play-through, I will. So that's organic and a lot of people in the FM industry, you'll probably find, you know, I'm not qualified or degree, I've learned on the job and I'd like to think I've done well career wise and sort of take that learning into practice. But I think you've got sort of gone. - So I believe that people would probably fall and into an industry as opposed to, I know what it is at the age of 14 and this is what I want to do. Now I think I believe there's no investments from I don't understand what about, you know, degree education. So I think that does just needs to keep being built, but actually, you know, pandemic hit, no need for the buildings. - Yeah, and I mean, - I'm going to go back out and pop my upload for that send-in and move all the deep in the projects and that's all shifting again. And I think, you know, culturally, our business is going to maintain this sort of hybrid fluidity, hoarding and getting a bit harder, lots of the big boys bringing a back to the need for it, you know, project management. I give you wonderful, wonderful skills in terms of structure organization. So this wonderful tool is out there for people. It's just getting that to them at the right approach. - Yeah. - Just age in there sort of education, I think. - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, well, I hope that the industry keeps walking on that because I think it's something we've got to continuously walk on. Eyes of the demographics, changes, technology changes, the peace changes, how we mentor and train people needs to change. I'll do a little bit of coaching and I've done so, and I still do some mentorship. I come from a. - And how do you, so it's about that? So I appreciate your ask and make questions. - But how do people know that you do mentoring and coaching and how do you try to do that? - It's through referrals and it's through kind of word of mouth. And it is a service line. It's a soft service line that I deliver. And on a few candidates want at any one time, but very down to earth. It's actually basically mentorship and GIS. That's a big part of it. And I am going to coin that. - I was going to say, you should do it. - I'm going to let go. You didn't even know about GIS until we. - I've got my own time. - Two minutes pro. - Yeah, yeah. - But it's, let's go with it. - It's a true thing. And I mentor and I select the different way too. Here's a ticker box and if you want that promotion, here's how to write the business case that will get you that promotion. It's more than that. It's got to be very real authentic. Yeah. Right, we are getting close to the NTO. So we're going to kind of wrap up. And we did end up down a few rabbit holes. We got quite deep, which is really good. And I know we would. - Yeah. - Thank you for that. But we are going to have just a few minutes on a better fun on the way out. You got for it? - Yep. - I think. - Okay, next to you is the bag of justice, as I'm going to call it today. Please do it. Reach in there, grab a number. And this is where it goes. - There's a random, I can't. - Yeah, no, you can't. - But what I was going to select. - No, no, no. - No. - What is your favourite number? - Eight. - Well, that's a neat answer. - It's great. - Right. And this is where you've got to think on your feet. - Okay, so it's not a height by the way. - Okay. - What is it then? - Number three. Right, number three. Oh. We've had this one actually. But let's do it again. - Do you want me to get another? - Yeah, go on actually. (laughing) - Well, it's a six or a nine. What do you, you? - You choose actually. What do you want it to be? - Well, see you, I'm. - No, no, you choose. - Six. - Six, right. So what is in your work survival kit? All right, so you've got a list of three things that gets you through the work in week. Go on. Water, music, coffee. - Okay, what kind of music? I'm assuming you're there with your latte, you know, drum and bass, pumping. - No, I'm a bit mixed actually. I'm quite diverse in terms of genre. I mean, Ed Sheeran's just done a new album. So I'm trying to sort of listen to that. My son loves, my six year old son loves Alex Warren. And there's a particular song he doesn't like the words to it, but it means something to him. - Okay. - And my daughter loves, so a musical theater. And we quite often play in a car with sort of Matilda soundtrack. And there's a song with a school song. And she, the age of eight, she's very talented. - So you know the word to know that? - I don't quite know. I know the alphabet, I've never got a note. - Absolutely, no, no, no, no. - Also another record, yeah, I've been saying, you're laughing back in season two. Who's I could initiate, she does it. So I think for me, I need to be healthier and drink. Water, it's sort of the thing for me. My head's very fuzzy, it's very heavy, it's very full. - Yeah, sure. - Your own coffee is, it's a moment to break. - Yes, yeah. - Music on the way in, on the way out. - Okay. - Name something to me. - Cool. - I think a few people would share your survival toolkit, if I'm honest. - Yeah. - I'm not a massive music fan. - I'm not that much of a music fan. Not to get me through the walk week. - So if I could throw this back. - What would you're free? - Definitely coffee in the morning. - Yeah. - Yeah, see I've really gotten to walking, still as it sounds, but walking without the mobile, without listening to something, just actually thinking and clear head space. That's what I've really started to get into. Make such a difference. - I listen to me with one, if I walk in. - Me too. - Because I'm in terms of this, who go sort of being aware, self aware of surround. - Yeah. - And this is a plea of people, put your phones away when you walk through London, down every device. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I'd be really, really aware of your surroundings. - Yeah. - If I'm walking, it's one is, so I've got awareness elsewhere and phone away. - I thought I was only one at London. - I know. - We are both about what? - We are. - That's a good question. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So we've just ended. - Ross, thank you very much. - Absolutely. - Really appreciate it. We went deep there, which was expected actually. I've got no doubt that you got some inspirational thoughts from that, and probably would like to comment online. when this goes live because I've got no doubt you will have some comments to give. I'm going to put Russ's LinkedIn in the show notes and if you or someone that you know could use some strategic advice as opposed to reactive management, please do get in touch through Spark.London or Find Me on LinkedIn. Until next time, take care.