Episode 47 - Connecting Farmers with Roasters – A Conversation with Benjamin Paz

[Music] [Music] Should we open the beer? Yeah, maybe we should open the beer. Before we wanted to be in the. Oh yeah, I think we could include that in there. Thank you. I'm recording. Okay. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Van der Waal Coffee Podcast. Today you might hear some background noise because I am sitting in the middle of Columbia in Nguila in Finkehkatarmana. I've been here for a week to buy coffees and also we had a little symposium with all the farmers we buy from in Central America. And we always sit at Elias's farm to kind of get to know the farm but mainly because we're all part of a project where we're testing biological farming techniques against conventional techniques. We'll get into that a little bit later. But today I have a very special guest. Like all my guests are very special but I know this person for many years but never got the chance to sit down record a podcast with him. So I'm very very excited about that and this episode could go on for five or six hours but we're gonna try to keep it short. Because there's so many topics we could talk about with Ben Hamin but we have to kind of restrict ourselves a little bit. And maybe we'll record another one in a year or two. So without further ado, Ben Hamin pass. Welcome to the podcast. Tim, thank you. So nice to be part of your podcast. Grateful to be here in Colombia sharing time with the group of producers and with you as well. So yeah, thank you for the time and the space. Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you here. There's many people who know who we are but there's also a lot of people who listen to the podcasts who are not that much into coffee. So maybe you could explain a little bit who you are and where you're from and what you do. Yes, so I'm a coffee producer from Santa Barbara Honduras. I work for San Vicente, a coffee exporting company based in the in the same area of Santa Barbara. For the people that consume your coffee, they might be familiar with the Nacimiento. So Nacimiento is a coffee that we help export. And yeah, we do the service and we provide our services to many other producers as well that are being served in market. So my role in the company is to build relationships in between rosters like you and producers like like hope kneel in this case, right? And I'm also a producer myself. I've been doing it since 2012 and yeah, I guess it's worth mentioning the COE. The world famous. The COE winning, I won a couple of excellent stars which is very important goal for any producer. And yeah, we've been working in the company since 2008. I got to meet you in 2009. And yeah, we're just trying to build. We've been trying to build a healthy supply chain for rosters and producers and kind of like that's a goal of my job and my role. So you're the the fair middleman that everyone says, oh, we need to eliminate the middleman because we need to buy direct from the farmer. But I'll tell you what, like when I came to Honduras for the first time in 2009, there was a friend of ours called Peter Rodriguez that took me around to show me different farms. I told him explicitly that I wanted to go and visit Nazimento or actually see little Indo which is home nails father farm. So Peter took me to Santa Barbara. We met with Arturo. I think you were, I don't know where you were, but Arturo was the one who took me. Yeah, we we met on the road. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We're doing something else. I was driving another buyer and you were with Peter on the road going up to to see a little to see how I'm an extravert. And then of course, we met Honeil who was extraberto son that I was supposedly going to visit. And of course, everything happened from there. We started buying coffee and blah blah blah. But this wouldn't have happened. My point is this wouldn't have happened if I didn't have the support of an exporter taking me around like where do we start, especially in 2009 without social media and all these kind of things. You couldn't just go to Honduras and expect to find find the farm and like start buying direct like you need some people to help you to do that. So maybe you can explain a little bit about the transition of some of the center and where you were before and how you've come to where you are today. Yeah, it comes you know, a long way. When my grandfather started to try to figure out what the future of his family was going to be and he found coffee to be reliable way to make it. And he established his business in in the 50s. And unfortunately things didn't go as well as he as he wanted to and he had to go through all of the changes and my dad to cover with my uncles, the farm and the buying business. Also didn't go so well. So they had to start over later. So it wasn't until 1979 when my father together with my uncle Arturo that started some Vicente as a business with the focus of buying coffee from producers in the area of Peña Blanca. And sell this coffee to the exporters in the city. My dad always had the dream of export his own coffees. So he wasn't until 2000 when he was able to achieve that. So he was 21 years of a lot of hard work trying to follow a dream. And then we connected to a specialty coffee through cup of excellence when COE came for the first time in 2004. And we heard about scores and an auction and producers getting a lot more money than they would normally get on the regular basis through this auction. And it was very attractive for us and we were not exposed at all to specialty coffee to the point that we didn't really know how to manage a microaltern something like that. And we saw the news that the names of Marisabel Caballero and Luis S and El Puente and Fabio that made it to the auction in 2004. So Arturo had the idea of trying to find potential producers that could do something similar with the quality. And he selected a couple of producers from our area to participate in cup of excellence. And one of these two producers happened to win the 2005 edition. And that kind of like started to put Santa Barbara in the map. And then years later, you know, between 2008 and 2011 many other producers from the region came to us, requested help to kind of like put their lots together and submit the lots in. In the competition, some even didn't know what they were competing or participating or Arturo himself selected some of these lots and separated some of these. That's what the case of extrovert. And he submitted the coffees on their behalf. And then we were able to connect to this wonderful community that built the basis of our program nowadays. And you were part of that buying that little in the coffin 2008 and then buying an assignment in 2009. And everyone was asking what was going on because all of those years, the first places from the competition were from our area 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011. And when we were in the US, in 2010, we had 17 spots out of the 25, nine coffees in the top 10. So it was kind of like a really remarkable situation. And everyone was asking what's going on? Who's these people? Because we were very far from the eyes of the market. So as you said earlier, you know, like you came to us to kind of like find a way to connect with these producers. And as many others did and that's kind of like where we started to build relationships and direct business to roasters and facilitate the access to these coffees and also facilitating the producers the access to market. And that started to continue developing to the point that, you know, like from these two producers that we were in 2005, now we're close to 600 producers. Yeah, working in the special the coffee program was ambitante and and we're not only working in Santa Barbara now, but we're also working in other different regions of of Honduras. So it's been a really successful project. Thanks to people like you that came in. you know, like, and trusted, not only in our quality, but also, you know, like in the potential that we had as producers. So I'll quote a controversial chess player called Hans Neiman. He says the chess speaks for itself, but here in this case, the coffee speaks for itself because the coffee in your area is fantastic. I mean, the standard coffee, every time I'm visiting you and in your office, you always have coffees to cup on the table. And I mean, there's always, always some standout coffees on that table. Regardless of when you come and what you cup, and like, you're pretty famous for the pacas, I think, in the area. Yes. Pacas was the staple variety for many years. Still is. It just happens to produce a really interesting profile that attracted a lot of people. And especially, you know, like people that were used to taste the variety from other countries were surprised by how complex the coffee tastes over there. And it's a blessing, you know, because we have in a really good growing condition, so also a really good location. But also, we have an amazing group of producers trying to do the right thing with their patrimony. And that recognition has helped them, you know, get to another level and take various like pacas to be really good. I remember back here in the mid 2000s, when you won so many spots that Honduran coffee, Federation or Icafé, were a little annoyed because they had just submitted this recognition of Marcala as being like the de-quality area in Honduras. And they had like a denomination of origin and everything. And then in the couple of excellence, it was just Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara. Of course, you had some Marcala coffee, too, but-- Yeah. It was pretty interesting that all of a sudden, a new area that was not famous, all of a sudden, became de-area to go to. Yeah, does Marcala earn all that? Because they worked their way up there, and we were not discovered yet. So yeah, well, in all the sudden, we were in the map. And I think, you know, like, honestly, team, the country has the potential to be up there, right? Not only Santa Barbara, but I think, you know, like, the fact that we were like close to each other in Santa Barbara and sharing information and trying to like develop this as a group, not as individuals, helped the region be what it is nowadays. So it was a team effort. It was a group sharing knowledge, sharing variety, sharing information that helped push the thing to the levels where we were. And yeah, it was incredible. And still, it happens. You see, on the auctions, you know, like, the 60 to 70% of the coffees participating are from, from a region. Yeah. It's kind of interesting. I see a little bit similarities in Kenya. And now that there's a lot of young people who are getting into coffee in the west part of Kenya. And traditionally, western coffees in Kenya have been like lower quality. Basically, I think because nobody has been there to kind of focus on quality. So central Kenya has always kind of been the king of Kenya. But now we see a lot of great coffees coming from the west. The same happened in Ethiopia when techno server got into Ethiopia. They started focusing on like producing cleaner, washed coffees in the west, in like, gym, aqua, areas that have been, you know, known for coffee for many years, but not for high quality. Everyone thought that high quality coffees came from Mirgacefe and Sidamu and Gurgi in the south. And all of a sudden, you discover a completely new area, just because some people start working on quality and all of a sudden you discover this huge potential that no one has tapped into. And then a few years later, everyone wanted those coffees. So I think it's kind of similar in Santa Barbara. Like, I know from experience that you work as a group. And like, when you drive through some of the towns in the mountains, there you basically every third person you pass this year, or cousin, or something like that. So it's a pretty close environment, but you can really see that you're working as a group, not like egoistic individuals that wants to be the best, but you see the benefit of that everyone wins if you grow together. That's pretty unique, I think. - Yeah, I mean, it's, as I said at the beginning, we were known and also the quality of our region was considered as one of the worst. And it's still, you know, like in the local markets in Honduras, you know, like the lower prices are normally paid in the Santa Barbara areas. You know, like it's not as competitive as, you know, like the south or the west. But as, you know, like, I told you this collective for this collective effort of all the producers, you know, like not only, you know, like being attracted by the fact that they can make more money from the coffee, but also have the recognition. You know, like everyone wanted to get there. Everyone wanted to have, you know, like this disrespect and this reward. So we all try to push for the same goal. And yeah, and now we're here, you know, like, and we're continuing. Like it's a non-stop goal. It's a non-stop work that we're doing. So yeah, we want to achieve more and take, you know, like, a specialty coffee to another level to be better. So can you maybe explain a little bit more in depth of what you actually do as the middleman? For instance, what do you do with the farmers that you work with? What's the typical thing that you would do in order to help them progress? So first of all, there's been not different stages, right? At the beginning, we would go and like, try to convince people to separate their coffees, like to pick better, to drive on their own. A lot of these influence came from people like you that came and had experience buying from other origins and told us, you know, like, what the better practices were, how can you answer what you're doing and how the Ethiopians were doing it, how Colombians were doing it, right? So we kind of like went there and tried to, you know, like find coffees and five potentials to expose this coffees to the market that we were having. Because at the beginning, people wanted to know exactly where the coffees were coming from and while there were opportunities were there. So to give you an example, when extraverto and hopnil competed, where the Manitas is competed, they had neighbors. They had relatives that were in the same area with the same variety. So we were kind of like, how they're reaching out to see if they wanted to be part of it. And at the same time, we had buyers coming and say, like, hey, you know, we bought this coffee in CoE, we would like to know if there's more down there. So we started to like kind of like build relationships. So we were kind of like, how they're trying to convince people. And then once we got the coffees, we started to like help them with drain, help them with their martation. We would bring feedback and then we would just like teach them based on their experience back then how to do the prep. That included also sometimes financing, sometimes helping the personal problems, all the different kinds of things to take them to another level. And to the point where a specialty coffee became a thing, and everyone started to kind of like get the experience to do the work on their own. And then we would have producers that we didn't know or were doing commercial that would bring their samples and start doing the process themselves. And they would bring the samples and like, hey, you know, like we have this coffee, can you taste it and see if we have potential. And if we have potential, can you see what the best can be for me if it's CoE or if it's a buyer. And we got a momentum between like 2011 and 2014-15, where we were going really fast because all of these producers showed interest in participating in our special the coffee program. And we would just provide it, you know, like any assistance that they needed in the agronomic part and the quality part and also providing the opportunity to find market for them. So started to travel, started to reach out to people, started to build this network from these judges that were coming to CoE from also connections that we built out out of CoE. And until today, we're still doing the same thing. We're hosting buyers that are looking for coffees, we're receiving samples from producers that are looking for buyers. So we kind of like make all these connection happen and we facilitate the services for both. We find producers for roasters and we find roasters for producers. So let's flip it around. When you, let's say you have a new roaster who wants to get into your coffees and maybe find a producer to work with, how do you work on that side of it? Like what's your process there? - Yeah, so now, you know, it all depends on what the expectation from the roasters are, right? And then now we know, you know, like what producers, what regions, what qualities we have and we can just be the match makers, you know, like you can see, you know, like what we work for, you know, like these customers. And now with all of the diversity, you know, like we kind of like figured it out, the fish, you know, like a pack has, if it's not, retro Paranema if it's a gaysha right and also You know like we see what the expectations is the volume all of that So we're gonna like go back and start seeing you know like from the producers who're working with on from new ones They're bring coffee and I'm kind of like okay if a producer brings you know like a Paranema natural And there's this specific market that I know that have has this specific preference We kind of like make the connection there and then we put them together and and that's kind of like how we we we take the relationships and And even you know like for Qualities that are not like up there yet like a producer and a new producer comes and say like hey, you know I have this coffee. I want to taste it and it might not be you know like an 87 point coffee But I have the request from a buyer that needs you know like a good clean 85 point coffee in that range. We also, you know like build that to be part of a potential blend or like a potential ingredient and that's kind of like How we work it and to the point that we slowly and organically became you know like suppliers and we just build something for an specific demand and And that's kind of like the first connection moment and then we build everything into the relationship program Which is at the very end what what we want I mean you serve many different types of clients in with many different volumes many different quality expectations You also sell commercial coffee I guess like yeah, I mean and in our kind of small niche of the industry That people like to call specialty coffee. I don't like to use that term But you would think that everyone looks for the highest possible quality all the time But that's not necessarily the case. I mean it's not the case and it's not the reality of many producers, right? Most of the coffee is that we produce from our area are not like the best right the majority of the volume is From you know like low-grown areas where unfortunately the producers don't have The growing conditions to produce the best coffee so they have to produce something Unfortunately not as great and we still have to find the market because it's our responsibility And yeah, you know like just to give you a number the 70% of the coffee that comes out of origin is It's lower a specialty if you want to call it in a way, but also you know like this helps the market this is an opportunity and And we have to we have to allocate it we have to sell it and And yeah, you know like we all want also want to go high-end a specialty coffee is right but but at the very end the reality is that not everyone is capable To produce the best but you know we try to make it work anyways For the for the benefit of the producers and also you know for the for the benefit of the of their relationships It's hard sometimes, you know like with with with lower specialty or commercial Because you know like you have to see faces as well. You have to see producers that are you know like working as hard as the specialty one Getting a lot less for their coffees, but you know like that's unfortunately How it is with the system of the market? So basically when who pays you like how do you get paid to do the service? I Mean there's different ways right we can We have different models We provide the service to the to the producers and Producers pay us sometimes we buy the coffee from the producer and we sell to the buyer and the buyer pays us So is it all depends or the model that is most popular is We acting as service providers and In this way we bring most of the value to the producers So we charge a fixed fee for or exporting services and for sell services That is not attached to the volume or the price so if the volume increases or the pricing increases all of the benefit goes to the producers and That's the most popular System most of the producers want to go that way because they see you know like the value from there And it's also very transparent and And at the very end that's what we want you know we want a healthy supply chain where producers can Be more profitable because that's what's going to benefit us at the longer, you know They're gonna grow they're gonna produce more more producers are going to be interested in participating in programs like this So we can grow it. It's hard. It's hard for logistics It's hard for communication But bodies where we find to be more valuable and we can provide all of this information and transparency to the to the roasters and And it becomes you know like a very honest clean model We can also be buyers as well and we just if a producer wants to sell the coffee We make an offer based on quality we buy it and then we and then we sell it in the market So it can be either way. Yeah, it can be the producer that pays or the buyers that That can pay us but you know like our model is very flexible and at the very end, you know like We want to be beneficial for for everyone on the supply chain and be As efficient as we can to Again, as I said before make a healthy supply chain. Yeah, I mean as a buyer It's it would be impossible for me to get to a need coffee without having your service because you're basically Taking care of the coffee after it's dried, you know preparing it for export doing all the exportation transport milling You know some producers are fortunate to have their own operation where they can do that But they are normally quite big in volume, but most producers are not like that and Like at least when I was younger in coffee We always seem to think like the middle man, you know, it's bad person They buy the coffee cheap and they sell expensive they exploit everyone like I can clearly see that that's not the case when I'm They're sitting your your your operation because you see that you grow because the producers grow and It's kind of the benefit everyone wins in that equation So I think your model is pretty I mean it's very transparent and also it seems to work because the producers are very loyal They're your buyers are very loyal so yeah, and they keep coming yeah exactly they keep coming and and you know like for me It makes me so happy to see the results, right? I mean hope Neil is the best example, you know like how? Extroverto and home nearly started and we started working with them and See them where they are now and that's the case of many other producers and and for us that's that's that's a Success to see people thriving to see people Reaching through the goals to see These families, you know like they stay together and I have to migrate because you know like of the of the Economic crisis I can face So it's been really good. It's been a blessing and yeah, we just want to replicate that and continue growing it So we can open more opportunities for producers to to sell their coffees outside of Honduras. Mm-hmm Now you mentioned migration because that was my next topic in this episode What are the biggest challenges you face in your area or in Honduras in general or in coffee in general? Yeah, so I would say two things one is the is the weather pattern changing we can say climate change and And the labor crisis that we're facing because of the the lack of of employees those are kind of like the two things and One the weather changes that's being critical because we've seen a drastic parents happening like getting rain when we're not supposed to get rain having extended summers That are off season that are pushing for flowering to happen in distant in different timing Pests, you know like Happening like rust coffee leaf rust spreading in inner is where we didn't have it before Broca showing up in places where we didn't have it before so you see all of these instances and like for example Last year and earlier this year we had a lot of rain a lot more than then Then normal and that messed up with the trees. We had a lot of entrepreneurs problems We had a lot of problems drying so we had a decent amount of of the effective coffees in the cup because you know Even though the market was very high people really pushed to continue drying and processing the coffees the way they normally do and Because of the weather conditions that was very challenging and And yeah, we're seeing the the production being affected is making Coffee production harder and harder every year to the point that we don't really know what's gonna happen every year as everything is unpredictable right and with the labor after the pandemic and because of the Difficult conditions that we have in Honduras a lot of people have decided to migrate and leave the country even though coffee Is good and people can Can make good money many many people working in agriculture have lost their incentive to continue and they have decided to migrate to the states in Spain I don't blame them because they are looking for In your look opportunities for themselves and their families Right and and that has affected Coffee production a lot Honduras is a country with 9 million people 9 probably close to 10 now. Word Normally in the past, one million of these nine, 10 million will be directly working in coffee, don't harvest. Because coffee is one of the main industries we have in the main products we produce. And after the pandemic, based on national statistics, the 15% of the population has migrated. - Wow. - Which is a lot number. - It's a big number. 400,000 kids under 18 years old have left the country, mainly going to the United States. And that affected coffee obviously, because coffee is a big industry. So we felt the changes and there's a lot less people to, especially to pick. So that has increased the cost because of the availability. So the cost of production has gone up. And we have how to transfer all of this cost right to the price. And has been really difficult to kind of like match a balance and try to make coffee sustainable in the economics. So we're trying to figure out what the best strategy is, what's gonna be, you know, like the plan for the next five to 10 years. So we need to figure that out on how we're going to be maintaining the quality, maintaining a cost that can help us be profitable and see how also how we can be competitive in the future. So we can have a balance in healthy production. - So I'm a little naive. Like for instance, if my costs are increasing in my store for a cup of coffee, I just increase the price. And the customer normally they complain one day and then the next day it's okay, you know, I don't want the coffee anyway. So it doesn't matter. Is it not the same with the coffee buyers or? - For some years, for others, you know, like they have financing regulations, right? And it's not that easy, you know, like, and yeah, people have, you know, like margin goals and objectives in their companies. And sometimes, you know, like it's really difficult to change that, you know, like, it's weird to say, but some people, you know, like, instead of, you know, like paying more, they'd rather sacrifice quality by something for cheaper. That is not as good just to, you know, like, make the business. What can I respect that, you know, like, it's a business. I mean, I don't know the roster, right? And so I don't know their problems and everything. But we're trying to do that ourselves, you know, like if something got more expensive, we're trying to figure out what we're going to do in and communicate to the buyers and say, like, hey, this is what we're facing right now. And we're just expecting support and see what we can do together and also increase quality. Because with good quality, you know, like, it's going to be, you know, like easier to, to, to all of the cave coffees, but I think there has to be an understanding that, you know, like things are challenging and we need to figure out how to, you know, like, make consumers recognize that we need to start, you know, like, pay a little bit more for, for coffee based on all of the variables that are happening. And yeah, I think that's, that's going to be the strategy. And what are doing our part? We're trying to make the coffee better. We're trying to make the coffee sustainable. And, and hopefully, you know, we're going to get a positive response from the market. So far, it's been, it's been good. The partners that we have in the relationship coffee program has been great and responsive and everything. But also, you know, like, we have had to face a few years that has been challenging for the coffee industry. So we're hoping that the future will provide and we were able to, like, drive and succeed and everyone will be happy with, with, with the business. So fingers crossed that we're going to be able to, to figure it out together. And, and yeah, I think we just need to support each other and, and communicate properly what's happening. And hoping that the final consumer is going to understand. I mean, for me, I just find it a little double standard sometimes in the coffee world. We all seem to accept inflation in the rest of the world. Like, a car is going to cost more every year. Milk is going to cost more every year. Everything costs a little bit more every year. Everyone knows that the salary goes up a little bit. Then the prices go up a little bit. That's just the way it is. Yet, in coffee, we just expect the price to be always the same. For 50 years, almost. And then again, we talk about, oh, we need to pay the farmers more or the, we need to have better conditions for the pickers and everything. And as soon as that actually happens, where you're paying pickers more, because you have to, to attract them, then the roles to start complaining on always to expensive. To expensive. Yeah, I think it has relation to like the, the fact that, you know, a lot of the confiscated commodity, right? And this is attached to the market and, you know, like, yeah, it's that, that close connection makes, makes that thought to be, to be like that. And it shouldn't be like that. You know, like, and I think, you know, like, definitely not the market going up this year proves that, you know, like, there needs to be adjustments in, in the market. And people need to understand that, you know, like coffee, coffee can, and has to be more, more expensive for the, for the, for the, for the survival of the variant, you know, like one part of the real sustainability of coffee, because it, which is profitability for the producers. Yeah. Right. And, and I mean, you know, like, I'm not afraid of saying it. You know, like, I saw people happy that the market was going down. Right. And it makes sense because, you know, like, there's certain economics that have been hard for certain markets. And I get it, you know, like, especially the lower commercial, like, has been difficult. But at the variant, you know, like some producers needed to make some money. Because they were very close to disappear. Yeah. So finally, especially, look, in my area, with a lot of people, abandoning coffee because it was improffable. Finally, this year, they were able to make some money because the market was up. So, yeah, we need, we need to figure out how to make it more stable and, and how to make it more, more, more appealing. So, producers can continue putting, putting coffee out there. Yeah. I mean, we talked about it this week during our symposium as well, that all the farmers have the same problem. It's climate and manual labor. Like, it's harder and harder to get manual labor. And they have to pay more and more in order to attract manual labor. And still, you're not able to get enough, normally, especially if you have a big harvest and a big farm. So, I think this will be a huge challenge for us in the next coming years. And it's already happening, like, even in Colombia, people are migrating or they don't want to work in the farms. It happened in El Salvador, Honduras. We see it in Kenya. We see it in Ethiopia, even. So, it's a big problem, I think. And it makes me think that we are, of course, paying not enough for coffee, because if you were to pay all these people to come here and attract them to pick a coffee, you have to pay them even more, I think. Yeah. And I think it's worth it in the case of Honduras, you know, like the cost of living has gone up. And the workers need to make more money, right? And we need to increase that. Not only because, you know, like, we need to attract them, but also because they deserve to make a better living. And we're trying to like figure out models where we can just provide them, you know, like, better conditions for the variant that is related to also increasing the cost of for, of our product. And, and yeah, gotta get that happen and, and make sure that, you know, like, everyone is, is comfortable with what they're making. And, and it makes sense. And, and it's definitely not like something that we need to, to focus on, get your calculators out more than the machete or the assadon right? I'll get the calculator then and start to take everything, yes, as a business, I was gonna go there to like be proactive in terms of management and take the right decisions that that makes sense for, for everyone in as a business. I remember Moises, our friends, that we also buy coffee from. He told me a story that he had a client call him, asked him him to reduce the price because they had inflation in their country. Moises answered, but we have inflation too. It's like, no, we can increase the price. You know, that's the, that's the way it goes. But it seems to be like a little disconnect sometimes from buyers that producing countries are always the same. And the only countries that have inflation and stuff is like the, the market. Yeah. Which is kind of weird, but I, I guess, you know, with some education that's easy to change, like people realize after a while, if you're been in coffee for a while, that you have to pay more, if you want to have a good quality, that's just the way it is. Otherwise, I think coffee will disappear if we don't do that because it's not viable if you don't increase the price. I mean, you see it in my region. We had a co-op organized of different type of quality so coffee and the 10% of that group of producers, the 10% of the producers are currently working in the US illegally, because they couldn't find coffee to be appealing. And all of that volume is no longer available. So we're trying to figure out how we will compensate that for the longer. So we need to figure something out together to make it work. And fortunately, companies have to face problems during this volatile crisis. And they are unprepared. So it's the time to set basis and figure out how we can make this sustainable forever. But you must have known that these were probably issues 10 years ago as well. So my question is, why did you buy a farm and start growing coffee when you see all these problems around you? Well, there's many things, right? And that question is very complex. But I have an easy response. And the my response is that I consider myself a privileged producer, because I was able to be born and raised in a family that worked hard and was able to build a patrimony. Coming from harsh backgrounds. And one of my inspirations is when my mom tells me all the time that my grandfather wore his first pair of shoes when he was 17. And that makes me think about how blessed I am. And yes, with all of these opportunities that we have faced, I thought that could be a lot easier for me to grow coffee after especially seeing some of the people that inspired me and helped me be a producer, a fail. I'm very close to the Moreno family. And I saw them fail many times. But I also saw them stand up and continue and thrive in. And that was an inspiration for me. And I saw that I had more advantage that I didn't only learn from their successes, but also from their failures. I was able to have at that that inspired me to work hard, that taught me how to work hard. And I also had the opportunity to be exposed to this wonderful market that was also coming to buy coffee from this producer. So I was kind of like, yeah, maybe I could find my place here. And I could be able to make it work, not only because of the economics, but also because I wanted to be in the shoes of the producers and learn and share my own experiences and help them with different things. Because also at the same time, I had lower risk because I was able to subsidize this investment. Because I don't only have income from the coffee, I have the blessing to also have my job in San Vicente and have also the coffee shop and the roastery that helps. My business, I also have a university degree that if something goes wrong, I can go and apply for a job. And that's not what many producers have. Many don't have these opportunities. So I'm like, let's use these opportunities I have. Try them, see how much we can do and bring any benefit I get from all these to the producers back to the process. And back in 2011, when I decided to buy land to plant coffee, I got the inspiration from the producers and from the buyers. Many of the producers say, hey, you should buy your land. We will help you plant the coffee. We will show you how to do it. And I had a little run from them. And also in the other hand, I have the market buyers that were coming and saying, hey, I'm having a Viover-produced coffee. We love to buy it. So I kind of like so that opportunity. And now 13 years later, I realize that has been really good, has been an experience that has helped me understand producers more, respect them more, appreciate coffee more. I also had the blessing of Winnie and COE, which is the most important award for a producer in Honduras, not only once, but twice. And that has given me a lot of experience to kind of like figure out how to overcome all of these challenges. And with my experience, share this with the producers that I'm working with to just explore what strategies we can build in order to like-- I mean, you're clearly inspiring the producers now, like after winning two couple of excellence consecutive years, was it? 2024. OK. But still, pretty incredible. And I'm sure you're a huge inspiration for a lot of the producers in your area now. So we kind of flipped it around a little bit. Because I guess I can see that if you do the work properly, then you can achieve like the highest possible goal, you know? Yeah, I mean, it started like-- what do you say? It just made me realize, you know, like producer-- like, home-leel, one home-leel was telling me the very beginning. And like, hey, produce coffee wins you, you know? Like, we'll help you. This is like 2010. Hope Neil and I walk on his farm. And he trying to convince me to do it. And I remember him in-- by mid-year in 2022 after I won COE, he was like, look at me. And I'm like, hey, you did a better than me. I remember I was trying to convince you. And now you want the only one. We want the only one. And I haven't. And yes, you know, like, I'm hoping that the impact is there. And with my experience, I got-- I'm trying to share all of that with them, because I also want them to succeed. I want them to win COE. I want them to get, you know, like the reward, right? And that recognition. And that's a plan. The plan is to continue doing that and bring as much impact as we can to our communities and to our producers and the people that have believed in us as an presenter as well, that have trusted the patrimony. And they have given us all of these coffees for us to represent them. It's a big responsibility. And we want to make sure we do the right thing. Nice. You talked about Hope Neil. If you-- for the listeners, Hope Neil is the owner of Finka Nascimento that we have been buying from for since 2009, directly. We bought his father's coffee on the Copax Lens in 2008. And that's been a long time. It's 16 years. So a lot of stuff has happened in his life, and also on his farms and everything. I tried to tell people about it through our website and everything. But maybe we could hear from you as a kind of a fly on the wall, because you've been kind of following this as a third party person. Maybe you could talk a little bit about, like, in general terms, like, how have you seen that journey evolve? Yeah, I mean, Hope Neil is a friend, more than a partner. He's a friend. He's a character. He's a character. His personality is intense. He's a lot. He works very hard. When he sets a goal, he normally achieves it. Very ambitious in a good way. Also very loyal and very noble. Sometimes a little bit stubborn. But you know, that's the nature of a human being. And the word, word, word. But that fact makes him be the successful farmer he is now. And yeah, it's been a long way. His background wasn't easy. He had to leave his house at the Asian 14. And started to travel to all different places to try to figure out what his future was going to be. Similar to my dad, he found in coffee, you know, like opportunities. So he migrated to the States. But when he found that coffee could be a good opportunity for him and for his family, he decided to come back. Settle down in Santa Barbara again and start over. And he did. And he's one of the best producers we have right now with amazing coffees. And also very influential for the producers in El Celito. And he's been also a producer that we selected to test many different things. A pioneer in growing exotic varieties. An exemplary package producer as well. His package and Bourbon for many years were some of the best coffees. And also his Icafenoventa. And his Icafenoventa, which is a very peculiar detail to mention is that supposedly those coffees are not made to taste amazing. But his Icafenoventas from Celito Lindo happen to be insanely good and very interesting. So yeah, him and not only him, but also funny his wife. And his whole family have been key people for the successful program, very inspirational for the producers. And they were kind of like the stable coffees for us that we will show off with at the very beginning. And yeah, very proud of where we have taken their operation, all together, working together. I really appreciate the trust. As I said before, they bring their patrimony to us as a company to represent them. They trust us to do or magic as he says. And for me, that's very important that we have that trust because I know how hard it is to produce those coffees. And for me, they are very important people and I'm just very happy to see them succeed, very happy that they are here with us in Tamanain, Colombia sharing this experience. And yeah, very excited about the future and short and long term. I'm going to record a podcast with him in the future, but my Spanish needs to get a little bit better. Because he speaks so fast. He's a Spanish also too. And we need some kind of censorship for all the swear words, but I'm looking forward to the day where I can have proper conversation with Hope Need, where I understand at least 80% of what he's saying. Because he's the one I struggle the most with understanding actually. And I always need a translator. Okay. But you mentioned that Hope Need is here. We're here today in Colombia together with Moisés, Marissa Bell from Honduras also. Hope Need and Fanny from your area. And Diego Barana was here from Los Brinos. Don Elias is obviously here because we're at his farm in Colombia. And we have had this is the third time we meet as a group. And we met the first time in Guatemala in November 2023, I think it was. Yes. And in a bus ride there, I think it was on a bus ride or during a dinner. I told everyone like, if you don't change to organic farming, I'm not going to buy your coffee in 10 years. Pretty hard message to get. And I'm not buying your coffee, but I invited you to this simple Zoom because you have such a big influence in your area. And also on Hope Need. So, I wanted you to be part of the project that we call our organic product. It's not a good working title because it's not about organic certification or anything. But basically a lot of our listeners know, have heard about Biofilia and the episode Bidlalo that we, where we talked about regenerative coffee and biological growing and stuff. And this is mainly why you're here to get to know Elias as farm, of course, but also to talk about the future 10 years, which is now eight years. And how we are going to change all these farms, hopefully, to what we can maybe start talking about sustainability in terms of environmental and sustainability. And the reason why this has taken so long for me is like you mentioned earlier, first you need to have the economic sustainability in place, make sure the producers make a profit. Then you can start talking about changing how they farm the coffee in order to make it more sustainable environmentally. And I think we've come to that place where we are actually doing that and we're doing trials on each farm. You're doing trials. Elias, everyone is doing trials with biological techniques and comparing it to conventional. So maybe you can talk a little bit about that from your perspective, what you're doing and how you see this project if it has a future. Yes, I mean, I'm going to say something that I probably never said, at least not to you, maybe. But for me, you've been always a very influential person because we understand how important you have been not only to us, but also for the industry. And I personally trust and believe in you and in your vision. And yeah, I trust 100% that the future of coffee has a lot of relation to how we treat the soil, how we treat the environment, how we treat our growing conditions. So even before you shared about the Biofilia project, I had already experienced something related to regenerative farming and more biological approach to growing coffee through a friend who was just by just casual nature and how organic coffee industry works. He was consulting with Lalo. And I had heard his experience. And then when you came to us and say, hey, this is the way we would like to work. And when you invited me to be part of this, I was like 100% I'm down. And I've seen it how much the growing conditions have changed. And I also have seen results of the mistakes that we have made by not treating the growing conditions well, not treating the soil well, not treating nature well. And when you as the market comes and tells us, hey, the future of coffee might be this or it is this, we better believe it. Because sometimes we don't have the same exposure that you have and the understanding and the education and the vision of your cultures and your markets. So for us, most of the time we're growing coffee the same way that we grow other vegetables. And it's not like that. The impact of coffee is extensive. Like growing conditions. I've been always saying, and the last time we talked when we were in Honduras, I said sampling that we have adapted or growing conditions to the coffee, but not the coffee to grow conditions. And that has been a big mistake that we are paying now, seeing all the drastic, climate changes that are happening in areas. So I believe in the project. I wanted to be part of the project. And I believe in you that this is the future of coffee. I want to be part of the future of coffee. I don't want to drink sintering coffee in the future. And I know that if we can treat the growing conditions, we can have coffee in the future. So yes, I'm very excited about the project. I think what we're doing will change. The growing of the coffee in our areas. And yeah, very excited to see what Biofilia will bring, what the results will be. Not only in the soil, not only in the health of the plants, also in the quality and also in our lives, because it's a life project. It's not just a coffee project. Yeah, it's a long-term project. So far, we started with the trials in our farm. Was it in March or? Yes, early this year we started with the trials. I think the first applications were in March. And yeah, so far we're seeing the results. What results are we seeing? It's a little early to say. Yeah, it's a little early, but there's definitely a behavior. And the first thing that I would like to say is that, as you said before, I'm not part of your regular producers. But as you and I know, my participation in San Vicente and Santa Barbara as a region can be impactful. So, your vision of selecting me to be part of it is also because we might be able to change the region. Change? Yeah, the region and change other communities. And show by example what can be done and how we can make this better. And when we started the applications and everything, yes, we started to see the results. The type of products that we're applying, the healthier that the farms start to look based on what we are doing. We were able to identify certain things that the farm needed. We started to identify what opportunities in terms of cost. We will find, as some of these practices are a lot more efficient than traditional practices we were doing. The engagement of the workers, implementing these new techniques, has been there. The excitement of everyone, experimenting with something new that is clearly a lot healthier for everyone. It's also good. And the potential of finding better quality. So far, yes, it's early. But we are seeing slightly happier plants. We're seeing the interaction between the nature and the coffee. It's more accurate. as we are not only applying different products that are healthier for the plants and for the environment, but also creating their environment by planting diversity of trees and everything that is part of the project as well. The fact that we have the presence of Ana and Lalo in our farms that pointed at specific things that we were missing or we weren't doing right. You know, like it has made a change because we see the environment of overgrown conditions is slowly changing. The fact that we're not using any morphine decides and normally we will see you know like a little bit of rust here and there we will go like grab a pump and run and spray from just evenly right. We haven't done that in the whole year and we see the rust is there but it's also not affecting the plants as much as we expect it. So you know like it's super early or we're seeing the activity of the rust you know like behaving differently based on what we have done you know like the type of grass that is growing as you know like we're using different strategies to clean the weeds and everything. So yeah we're seeing the small changes which gets me really excited for the future and I'm just can't wait to cut those coffees. March and April next year right just to see what what we can do because also I selected that farm because it was also the most challenging farm for me to grow coffee at and it's also the one farm that hasn't given me any profits because of just the conditions were there and yes you know like I have other farms that have been successful like salsa the farm I want you with but I so I didn't want to take the easy path. I wanted to take the challenging path so we could learn and share this information with the rest of the producer so so far you know we're very excited I'm very incentivized and I really want to you know taste this efficiency we can get out of them. I can't wait to come and visit you next year to see the farm in action after a year of doing the application so are you planting say it as well or? Yes so we are working with the local community we're working on on a North City project where we are collecting native varieties of trees from the Santa Barbara mountain and reproducing them in North cities that I'm personally financing with a couple other producers to grow varieties that are native from the area instead of bringing varieties that are not from there and as you know like part of the project is also recreate the natural conditions and so we're planting between six to ten different varieties of native trees slow growth and faster growth trees so we can create you know like enough diverse city where we can grow happy plants and good quality coffee. Sounds fantastic. Yeah and also Tim it's a it's a commitment that I personally have because we know at some point before we got the land and before you know like the people settle in their communities you know like we know these areas where primary forests or some point we're part of the Santa Barbara mountain and and I think the right thing to do is to you know like give the mountain back some of these you know like health and some of these conditions so we're trying to we're trying to figure out how do you know like recreate the natural environment and the funny thing is that you know like as the other producers see us doing this you know like they are kind of like following up no matter if they are part of the practices or not there's a group of people very excited about about working in this project and developing new practices like you know like instead of you know like planting gravilea or wama right you know like people are planting varieties that are that belong and their native to the mountain. Yeah that's I mean that's what I'm trying to do here in in our farms as well in Colombia like bring back the native ones you know it's pretty easy to see just look around where you are what are the trees that are growing wild just plant more of those you don't have to bring trees from Africa and China. Australia yeah so it's pretty easy and like every little mountain has different fauna and it's so it's easy to figure out what trees to plant and very often producers ask me like which tree do you like the most is like I like all of them and say all these trees very dangerous for coffee like no no no biodiversity is good for coffee the what's dangerous for coffee is monoculture and monoculture is not just having coffee in a field is also having coffee and just one species of chetri or some grass or whatever so we need to invite nature I think to the farms and not kind of exclude it that's the last way forward and then you can see like like you say the trees can have rust but they won't be affected because if you invite biodiversity there's also other fungus that like it likes to eat the rust so you just start to get a balance in nature where where you get less problems with pests and disease that's just the way it is yeah and also you know like it has a direct effect on on our healthy you know like the conditions can be in and in my opinion the best coffees I've tasted come from you know like healthy grown conditions you know like good soil good shade good environment that's where the best coffee is normally grown so that's what we want to recreate and make the coffees the best we can and also you know like find that balance in the economics have balance in the in the impact that we do in the environment to have it like as low as we can and you know like make a living out of that that's kind of like the goal of the variant nice anything else you want to add or how many roses are you working with now personally yeah like your company up probably over 150 all over the world all over the world all over the world from you know like Asia to Europe North America Australia many different places we have been blessed to have amazing partners people that like you you know like not only like their coffees and trusted coffees but also trusted in us as human beings and yeah I have the honor and the pleasure to call many of them friends yes right as one of the benefits of working in this industry and sometimes you know like the Harper as well because you have to please your friends and sometimes not easy but it's the best you know like I think I think we have found so much value outside of just you know like a cup in bowl yeah a set of a cup and that has you know like driven everyone to just you know like put more energy on resources than this and I'm just very very grateful for for these opportunities and yeah just very excited about continuing very excited about producing better coffee very grateful to you for you know like counting on us for to be part of the BioFilia project trusting that we can change things and that's our goal to not only you know like keep producers a bag of good seeds to plan also you know like showing them you know like what the best thing is for for the for the cup for the trees for the soil for the pockets as well for sure and and try to figure it out together and yeah trusting that you know like in 10 years we'll get that we'll see down again and we talk about the results and we sit down and talk about you know like how good has been and how successful these projects have been fingers crossed that that's gonna be the case and other than that just you know like very grateful for for all of the trust for all of the work and we just look forward to continuing working together and and making the coffee better thank you Ben having thanks for joining the podcast and yeah can't wait to taste those coffees next year same team thank you and yeah grateful for this chance and just want to remind people to continue consuming coffee and continue supporting what we're doing continue trusting in this industry that if we get together if we push together for this we can we can achieve the goals and we can make the world better so let's let's keep it up. We're talking about Ben Hamin for joining the podcast and to the listeners if you are interested more interested now to get some going to your coffees get in touch I'll put you in contact with Ben Hamin if you want to it's laughing you don't have more coffees to sell or there's always coffee yeah there's always coffee there's always a producer trying to find out the opportunity but thank you for listening to the podcast if you have any questions regarding this episode or to Ben Hamin feel free to comment on our Instagram post about this podcast episode and we will try to answer Ben Hamin also has his own Instagram account it's just Ben Hamin pass yeah I'll link it in the description so you can follow him thank you for listening and Ben Hamin once again thank you so much for joining the podcast see you soon [BLANK_AUDIO]