Episode 45: The 500K bike and Theo Bos - Part 1

Have you ever seen a bike that cost 500,000 euros to make? I don't think I have, but I think that's because when I'm looking for track bikes, I look in the village of shop and there's only good deals on there. And yeah, let me tell you, while the Koga Kinsie and the Koga Kamera is on Veldrum shop, you will get it at a cutthroat price of definitely not 500,000 euros. What else can you get on the Veldrum shop, Lewis? Oh, less than it's got all your track cycling leaves. You're going to need more in the frame. You're thinking, God, it's 500 grand just for the frame. Well, yeah, and you've got more to pay on top and I, because you look at the wheels, you'll get the chain ones, but you can get them all. You can dump 100 quid on a chain ring. If you spend that much, you can tie. Yeah, exactly. Why are you buying them? Why not a grand on a wheel? You know, no bother. And the beauty is, no matter where you're buying this stuff, you can get it delivered to you free of charge. Why is that, Johnny? Well, what you can get is they offer free worldwide shipping. So wherever you are in the world, wherever you want your bikes, wherever you want your stuff, Namibia, the Maldives or Maldova, wherever you are in the world, Veldrum shop will sort you out. So check them out today at www.Veldrum.shop and take your track cycling to the next level. Hello and welcome to the P-Stake. My name's Johnny Mitchell and one of your hosts. I'm Lewis and Johnny's fresh back from Santiago. I have fresh actually. I have fresh. I just want to know the other. I've slept from it 26 of the last 30 hours. I was a bit of a tasking trip back, wasn't it, I've heard. Yeah, I didn't sleep for 30 minutes in the plane. Our plane got delayed. Oh yeah, yeah, I forgot. Our plane got delayed for two and a bit hours in the runway because it was our team, the Germans, the entire French, the entire Italian team. God knows how many other nations were on the same flight. So they hadn't really factored in. They would have to pack so many bike boxes. And then when we landed, we were sat in the plane for two hours before the 14-hour flight, which was fun. But we got there and then when we got there, the French customs decided to try and check every bike of hours and the Germans and the French team. So shout out the German. The centre of the fact that you also had all race week as well and the lead up to this. Oh yeah, yeah, like that too. But just to say shout out the German staff because holy shit, those guys then also had to drive. They flew 14 hours and then they were driving a thousand K over to Frankfurt with their from Paris. So yeah, that's, I think they had a more rough day than us. But yeah, I'm back. I'm fresh and alive. I've slept. And yeah, yeah, we will be bringing your world's debrief. It might have already been out. We need to just depends on what time we can get in. We're going to have stuff out. But we are back. We are back in force. We are going to be back with a lot more episodes. And yeah, this week we have brought you in. We're not going to something current. We are going, but what also current you may be seeing part two. I think it's the greatest track cycle this whole time. I have no problem saying that. Oh really, the greatest track cycleist of all time. I, I think I would go to say the most gifted track cycle. Yeah, but then it's making sense. It doesn't work hard. Yeah, I, I think the most gifted track cycle this whole time in the wrong era. Perhaps, yes, perhaps that's up to our listeners to make their own decisions. Well, so this week's guest is someone who is, and generally like, we always sell up absolutely legend of the sport. But this guy is truly like an absolute legend of the sport. Like I don't think anyone would dispute that. Who's ever raced with him being around him. He is like even beyond the palmar as just as like I've never met a sprint. For sure. Just, just as the journey is insane. And just a presence. Just like you just stands there and exists. And you're like, man, this guy's got something. An idol to his all, especially Wendy Stewart, share out loose his mum. We've done this podcast for you, Wendy. So this week we welcome to to the podcast. He's a five time world champion. A 14 time world championship medalist, one time Olympic silver medalist. The former like world record holder, which is also so fun. This was the world record of 9772. I remember when it happened and it was like, this guy is like, unbelievable. No one ever touched that. And obviously we have quite a lot now guys don't second faster. Yeah, but you know, I think I think they have in one world tour road stages. Exactly. He's one stages of the tour of Hanna. He's one of world Madison championship medal. You know, he is Tom Derrash before Tom Derrash was Tom Derrash. That's that's the level of like beauty that this man's at. But welcome to the podcast, Mr. Teo Boss. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure to be here in your podcast. Oh, but wow. Yeah, you know, I think I think there's there's so much, you know, we could go into it. We actually, you know, in such a career in track cycling that's spanned, you know, it's spanned decades like, you know, your junior world champ 2001. Yeah, yeah, your last major medal on the track was in 2019 in Prussia. Between these winning these winning stages of the tour of Hanna. Yeah, yeah. And Madison, you know, so we were kind of going where do we start. And I think we will actually kind of start at that junior world in 2001, you know, so come coming in at 18, you know, like so, so had you, yeah, I guess even maybe for a listener, it's like, what was your kind of route into the sport and even what was what was a junior world like back in 2001? Yeah, well, I started on the track basically in 2000 before that I was a road rider as a kid, so I started on the road when I was 10 years old. Pretty good. I was also trained by coaches from from Ravobank at that time, but in 2000, I tried to ride Dutch national championships for juniors. And I was pretty good in the sprint and the kilo. And my coach at that time from Ravobank, he was also a triathlon coach and he went to Sydney, Olympics. And he saw those results and he said, kilo, that's that's a really good event for you. So he advised me to try that. So I tried, it was pretty good. I did junior worlds in 2000 in Italy. And there I fell in love with track cycling. So I was as a first year junior, I was pretty good. I did sprint in kilo. Didn't win Ryan Bailey. Later I saw him also later on the track. He won, I think he won the sprint and Mark Rensho, he won the kilo. And so this two, pretty later turn out pretty good riders, but it was in Italy, Fjöranzola, outdoor track. And I thought, okay, I saw that rainbow jersey and I thought, okay, next year I want to be World Champion kilo. So I have all focused focus on that. But after that junior worlds in the winter, I got sick. I got, how do you say in English, Glendale fever or clear quotes in that. I can say. Fiverr, we say. Yeah. Okay, the belt just got like clear quotes. What are your people? Yeah. Anyways, like a, like a fire as you get read, tired and sweating. And I had to take a break in the winter. Then I came back like in at the end of the winter, March started training again. But the junior worlds was in, in I think beginning, end of July or beginning of August, something like that. And then I did, when I came back with little training, I did a kilo in hands. It was with again, with against France. It was still outdoor that time. Oh, yeah. And I thought I was, I thought I was in pretty good shape. And I did the kilo. I did one 13. So I was like, oh, this is not good. You know, this kept training kept training. Then the national coach, that time of the of the big team Peter Peters, he took me to a World Cup in Italy, in Port D'Eno, was an outdoor track. There I did that was in in April, May or something. And I did 107, which was already quite, quite okay. Yeah. And just before the junior worlds, I had national championships and Amsterdam. I did a 106. So I was, I was on the rise getting better and better. Then we went to America. Junior World was in T-Town. And there I, yeah, it was, yeah, it was a really, really cool World Championships. And there I did 105.53. And I was just three, three hundreds of a second faster than French rider who beat me whole year. And I, and that time I, I became World Champion, World Champion Kilo. So it was fighting a lot for that, for that World Championship title. And then at that time, Peter Peters, everybody's super happy. But a few weeks later, there was a World Cup in Mexico City. And he was, the Dutch team also was going there. But he said, okay, you can also go there, but you have to stay here for a couple of weeks, train here. And then you fly from New York yourself to Mexico City. And I was 17 at the time. And I was like, yeah, who am I, I want to go to the World Cup because it's altitude super fast. And he said, I, I will find some people here in the stands. So he just, he just, he just asked random people like the family was watching. Is it okay? This, this boy can stay with you guys. And they said, yeah, it was, it was really nice. You know, problem, you can stay with us. So I, I stay with this family. I didn't know. And their basement. The family left their name was. And I can train in T-town on the track there. And Marty Nordstein was also there. And he was at the time the Olympic champions sprint from Sydney. So I trained a couple of weeks with him. And I must say, you go with your national team to the World Championships. It was all super nice, successful. And then everybody left. So the next morning, I woke up and then this family came with the car and I had to step in the car and stay with them. So I was a little bit homesick, of course. Yeah. And then Peter said, OK, you can take the train to the airport, to JFK. And then the family said, now you cannot do that. It's too dangerous. You cannot go with your bike. It's too difficult. We arranged a taxi. And I had to pay like $150 or something for the taxi. And I remember the manager of the team, they were not happy that I spent so much on the taxi to the airport. Anyways, I fly to Mexico City. And I did-- so those two weeks in T-town, they were amazing. Actually, they took care of me so well. It was a great experience. And also, for my development, it was amazing. I do think though, I do think though, 2001, this is before mobile phones and social media. And I'm just thinking about, you know, phoning your parents at 17 years old. And going, hey guys, yeah, I know I've done the world. I'm sure you've found over by the teletext or however it was communicated by the end of it. I'm now just going to stay with this random family. And I won't be home for another three months. Yeah. I had to ask them, is it OK? I can make a phone call to my parents. And then we had to go drive somewhere. And then I have to-- Oh, yeah, it could be international call as well. Yeah, great. Yeah. So that was quite hard. But yeah, they took care of me really well. And it was, yeah, July, August, 2001. So that was before 9/11. Yeah, I was in the car. Yeah, maybe the world was a bit different, maybe back then. But anyways, yeah, I fly to Mexico. And then I arrive. And then some person said to me, like, don't get into a green cap. Like how do you say the caddy, you know, Volkswagen. What is it? A beetle. Don't get into a beetle. I get out of the airport only green beetles, you know? Like, I couldn't go in another-- Is there no one from the team waiting for you there? Like, are you-- No, no. I-- They just say that the hotel is holiday in there and there. This is the address. Good one. And then you can take it. You can take it. So I took a taxi and then I made it. And yeah, they were there. And, you know, everything was nice. And then I did the World Cup there in Mexico City. It was super nice with all the big guys, like with two normals there. And he was going to do a World Record attack to go under one minute. And I did a 102.5 there, which was a junior World Record at that time. So, yeah, I was-- Yeah, I was super, super happy. And yeah, that's basically how it all started and how I really fell in love with the kilo and with tracks printing. But, I mean, what was it? Did you have any idea at that age what you-- like the level that you were performing at and that you were doing these World Cups at like 17 and you were going 102 and like how actually fast that was? Or was it kind of different back then where it was a bit more common for juniors to do World Cups? Because, obviously, this is-- I mean, I was two years old. So I can't really-- [LAUGHS] No, that's not men, but-- I think I was already a little bit more mature and know what I want and what I can do because of my brothers. Because I have three older brothers and one of them was a successful speed skater. He's eight years older than me. And, yeah, he was already World Champion kilo in speed skating and two times-- at that time, he won a silver medal at Olympics in Nagano and he was World's French champion. And he was always like, yeah, a big example for me. And I just looked up to him a lot and I followed him his career also as a young athlete, as a junior growing up. What-- yeah, what is he eating? How does he sleep? How much is he training? What is he doing in the gym? So I saw how-- and speed skating in Holland, they are super professional. So I learned a lot from him. And so I always believed because of-- he has the right DNA to become successful athlete. I thought, then I probably also have it. So I always had that belief and always had that drive to achieve the same as him. So, yeah, it was just-- yeah, I have to become World Champion or I have to do this in this time because my brother also did that at a young age already. Yeah, so you mean when you called your parents to say that you couldn't come home there like, well, we haven't done well enough yet? You know? [LAUGHTER] It's like, well, a couple of years. What old record or nothing? Yeah, exactly. And it's also nice that they were supporting my brother a lot and also supporting my career a lot. And they knew, OK, they just basically gave me two ptp to the national coach. And he believed in me. And they believe in him and also believe in me at that time. Yeah. Yeah. OK. And so I think this is where it's then really interesting. So obviously, people will know anyone who's registered with ptp is only two and a half years effectively later, Melburn 2004 World Champs, who then go and win the sprint. So, you know, it's that transit. I guess it's, obviously, that you go into Athens 2004 when Silver and the sprint there as well. I guess what's really interesting to us and to me, especially is, what did that then transition look like for you going from junior to elites? You mentioned some of those names, your tournongs. This is where you had Chris Hoy coming into his sort of peak of his career. You had a lot of really ready-wield, Bergan, a lot of these top riders, just never went there. So many, I'm probably not even mentioning here, like, how was it for you at that time? Because I'm saying, what's something these days for us to step up from juniors to elites? But, yeah, stepping in from being the 17-year-old in T-town, I try to work out how to get, get a taxi to New York versus, yeah, stepping up and winning a World Champs title. Like, what did that lose transition years look like for you then? Yeah, I think I'm lucky also with the coach at that time, who gave me a lot of freedom. So, actually, in 2001, I also did the senior World Champion ships after Mexico. Then I finished ninth in the kilo and Chris Hoy finished eighth. So, and to now in Mexico, he didn't go under one minute, he did one minute and five tenths, I think. And I was like, okay, I'm just two seconds behind the best kilo rider in the world. And to now was also, he became World Champion kilo, I think, in Antwerp. It was at that time, Sportpaliz, it was the track doesn't exist anymore. He won the sprint and I also think they won the team sprint. So, at that time, in 2001, he was the standard. And yeah, Peter Peters, the coach, he also saw that he came, he has an endurance background. He was a road rider also, you know, he won parry tours. He did, he was a fourth in Perry, Roubaix, he was a six-day rider. So, he said, okay, my knowledge goes to this level. But for sprinting, you need to learn from sprint coaches. So, in 2002, we had a very classic buildup into the season. So, we went to South Africa, we did a road camp, so we did a heaps of road. Classic. Like, yeah, nothing, nothing you get compared to what you do in the future. Yeah, the spoilers, please. But it was like, yeah, we did, we did like over 100 kilometers. And we went for a camp for 10 or two weeks, but no gym. Then we went to Mallorca after that, and we did some more specific work, but also not so much gym. And then we went to Kodbus to get Mueller. I don't know if you know this coach. He was the coach of Lutz Hayslich. And Lutz Hayslich at the time, yeah, it's like the sprint legend. Maybe the best sprinter of all time at that time. And then we went into the season. And then we did, I remember we did her in Hill. That was the first first race of the season. Classic. Yeah, it was a lovely tournament at that time. And I got second behind Ross Edgar. And so that was quite good. But yeah, at the Worlds, I think I did a 102 in Copenhagen. I finished six or something in Kilo and in sprint. I was out. I did 10 six or something. Then in 2003, there was a new school in Agla, like the city. you have now also with a sprint coach and then athletes who don't have a track at their home country they can train there and they were supported by UCI and then Peter he sent us there to learn from the sprint coach that time as a Frederick Manier and yeah Frederick I learned a lot from him and he emailed me the training plan if I if I wasn't there and then yeah I came with the plan to to to my coach and so okay this is training we're gonna do and then yeah we all executed that and so see this time there's not like there's not like a centralized Dutch program or at least no sprint so you're kind of getting you're kind of getting as you're getting mercenary coaches in like here they're in everywhere to help you and share their expertise and try and I piece it together exactly right okay that's exactly and and at that time I had two wonderful teammates was Tony Mulder and Tim Felt so we were basically always with the three of us going everywhere we go to South Africa together we go to Kodbus together we go to Agla together and we soaked up all the information we got you know so and and based on that information we basically made a training plan for ourselves but the biggest boost I had was an invitation for Japanese Kirin in 2003 and at that time I was I was 19 and the federation they got this invitation and the technical director at that time told the ice he's too young to go to Japanese Kirin and he has to stay there a couple of months but yeah when Peter heard about it he's like what are you crazy this is this is an amazing opportunity yeah he has to go there and I got an old six day bike from Peter Peters like because you have to ride on steel bikes so and still still bike from him and then I went to to Japan and then there I trained to I raised and trained with with all the biggest the best sprinters at that time in the world and for three months and that was like that was I learned so much I learned so much and the riders who were there that was Craig Lora Ngane was there Joe Bidaika Jens Fittler, Inos Kixis and Philin Wavar Spanish Spanish sprinter oh yeah yeah yeah and I think I think that was and that was it yeah that was it yeah I mean I'm sorry I guess just to say to you I think for me for context it's quite funny isn't it before like you because even for Lewis thinking you know the Dutch program didn't exist and it's it's thinking of the in that you know like because because what your top nations back then that would be what probably Germany France Australia were really the the only nations that really had knowledge or information about sprint yeah exactly and the British they they with Jason Quilly they won gold medal in kilo so yeah Quilly I think he started for sprinting he started it for for for GB yeah yeah and and and Greg and Chris yeah they learned they they continued on on that knowledge I think and so I was in Japan basically training most of the time with Craig and with Lauren Ghana and all the riders are René Wolf was also there and all the riders they were often focused on their own plan and they they didn't think too much about me except for two guys was Craig and and Ghana so I went to the gym and I had no idea what I was doing and Craig was like I have to do this this technique and you have to do full squad and this is a good so basically he he in in the gym I learned so much from him and and it was also super super nice yeah period of time and period in my life you know you're really free do nice races with them you make as a young kid you make a shitload of money which is also pretty pretty and and I learned to I learned to drink beer there because when we come back from a race Fiddler always Jens Fiddler always bottled for everybody beer and everybody had to drink the beer so I so I really learned to drink beer at that period and after Japan that was in the beginning of the year there was a World Cup in Sydney so I fly from Tokyo to Sydney Fiddler was also going there Renee was going there and Joby also and yeah I was not in really good shape at that time I did 10 7 on 200 meter and maybe you were the beer still it was too much I think it was too much beer also and also in the Kirin like if you do a few tournaments yeah you can ride just you just do one 500 meter or in my case I did the Senko I had to lead the guys out so I did like a 7 on a 15 meter full guys but it was just one effort a day so you're also a little bit detraining and and and that World Cup in Sydney Fiddler made the final and he was he lost against Mark French I don't know if you if you remember that name yeah I learned it but anyways that I went back after Sydney and then everything I knew I I put into a plan and we turned on them we trained like five weeks full gas and then I went to a Grand Prix in Kombus and I I won the 200 meter there 10 3 I did and I was faster than then everybody was there except for for Ghana so I was in good shape then I went to Worlds it was in Stuttgart at that time it was supposed to be in China in Changes but it was cancelled because of some some kind of Covid SARS SARS it was there at that time Fuji and it was it was in Stuttgart and there I did I did 10 one in in a 200 meter which was on 50 14 so it was it was 96 for lots of money and in the kilo I did I think I did a 102 I was fifth I think in kilo and so yeah at that that moment I thought okay I'm now I'm really close because in in the qualification to an a meter I think Craig did the fastest time he did 1009 or something and it was it it was for me was like okay I'm really close now and then I had a winter in in Olegmar that was the track in Olegmar was renovated was a first wooden 250 meter indoor track in Holland and I just rent a small apartment there with a family in the garden like a garden house and I I spend all winter in the gym and and yeah doing the plan what we made and then the next at the end of the winter in February we had our first World Cup I think I was second in sprint behind Feetler and I was I was I was just on the podium with I was just one of the best printers already then and then the world was in Melbourne later that year yeah before the before the Olympics and then suddenly I was I became World Champion Sprint and I was 13 kilo behind behind two now and behind Chris so that 2004 it was like okay everything I learned I could put into practice in training and I had some good period block of training to do that to implement everything and and then that was that that was the final push to to the top yeah tell see what I find interesting is like when you when you talked about how you improved and the things you were doing so all like physical like it's improving physically and you I'm wondering sort of like back in the early 2000s how much how much was there focused on technical and tactical because you know there's I when I was racing or albeit a lot later there's a lot of video analysis a lot of practicing match sprints and and really thinking here you're going to race them was it purely just to get as fast you can and figure out the the rest later or was it some kind of technical yeah like for example in 2001 when I did when I did when as a junior I did also sprint tournament there and then I was like yeah 15th in qualification for example or or or whatever or 20th or something and then I had to fight my way through the tournament and I always ended up higher in the ranking than then I qualified so those races World Cups in 2001, 2002, 2003 yeah I learned so much also in in tactics you know especially how to time passing an an opponent who is faster for example or yeah how to beat an opponent who is faster and then I got physically stronger and then I was like also speed wise the fastest and then then then the tactics become also a little bit more easy because you can you can you can you can make a mistake but you can also correct the mistake yeah and I guess then like from from your perspective and this is yeah something I'm really never really covered as much but it's like you know thinking tactically in 2000 and yet it's in 3000 4000 4000 five when you're racing on your 50 14 versus today when you're racing on yeah you know 120 inch so what's that maybe I don't kind of know the combination of the the top of my head, but yeah, like a modern race gear. Like how different is it? What was like, I guess from your perspective, and even coming in racing later, like how different did you, would you think about races differently in the later stages? Like, yeah, how would you approach, say, a match sprint back then compared to now? Yeah, it's, it's, if I look at the sprints nowadays, it is quite similar, but when it started evolving into bigger gears, yeah, then we definitely rode the shorter sprint. So sometimes like even before my time, they rode even smaller gear than me, they wait, wait, wait, wait, until almost the back straight and then started sprinting, you know. So yeah, they left it out, yeah, very late. And because of my, yeah, kind of road background and also kilo background, I can, I was able to sprint a longer sprint. So at that time, you have like guys, they can squat to 100 kilograms, for example, but they were still almost on 49, 14. So yeah, it's, it's kind of silly to think about it now, but it doesn't really help you to spin a 49, 14 really fast. If you can squat like to 120 or 200 kilograms. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So that was, that was my, my benefit. I was really good at, at a leg speed. And I also had, I had, I had length in my sprint. And so I started sprinting earlier, and maybe I was one of the first ones to do that to, to already speed up, would want to half let to go, for example. And I just, I just love it because having just came from World's where it's like, yeah, like, Richone Harry already going to like 60 km/h, we're coming out of turn two after a lap. And it's like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, it was just really like, going hard at a lap and a half and I'm like, it's still probably would have been about like 40 km/h, 50 km/h, you know. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, it's, it's totally different now. And, and it, it evolved more into, yeah, a really a strength sport. If you cannot squat well or you're not strong in the gym, yeah, then it's, it's going to be super difficult for you. Yeah. For sure. And I guess like speaking, speaking of sprint, we kind of teased it, you know, the, the, the, the, the Athens Olympics where you got your, you got, well, I don't want to spoil it, but got your, you know, Olympic silver medal. And we've, we've kind of heard how you progressed. And you're still so young at this point, like trying to learn everything and pick up stuff, and you don't have really a sprint coach. And then suddenly you're, you're in the Olympic gold medal final. And I don't know, I would love to hear like what that experience was like. And how the final played out. So I know it's, you know, Johnny is favorites, but I'm not too familiar with it. Yeah. So at, at, after the Worlds in Melbourne, so I was World Champion suddenly, and I was third in Kilo behind them, behind two, nine and Chris, I went home, I had some time off. And then, yeah, started training again. And of, I actually, at the, at the Worlds in Melbourne, I had a, in the quarter final against Jamie Stoff. Oh, yeah. I crashed three times. So that was, I, I can't find that quarter final anymore. If somebody has it, please send it to me. I would love to watch it back. And please send it to us too. It was, it was, it was really, because Jamie was, it came from the MX Super Strong good acceleration, but his tactics were, were not, not his, his strong point. And I crashed one time super hard with him. He was leading it out. I passed him in the last turn. I came on the, on the home straight next to him. We jump. But I pull, I pull up my handlebar a little bit. I pull up my front wheel a little bit. And he, he accidentally hit me against my arm. So when I landed with my front wheel, my front wheel was not straight anymore. It was a bit like turning to the right. Then my wheel landed on the track and my tubular roll down. So yeah, I, I, I went at full speed. And then just tubular one went off. And I was like hiding through the band on my hip and you're super tired. And you feel your, your heartbeat in your throat. And but it was, it was a very hard crash. But in the end, yeah, I, I, I, the next hit I slide down from the track, which was also, which was also kind of silly. And I crashed, I crashed another time. I don't remember what happened. Anyways, it doesn't matter. Did you hit your head? But anyways, I managed to beat him. It was, it was three hits. And then the next day was a semi final final. Then I won. I went back back home. And yeah, I think my hips were not super aligned or something. And we didn't have like a physio who's checking us out. So I went, okay, Olympics is next. Now go train full gas towards Olympics. So I hit the gym. And I do, you know, no, no, no good technique. Then I, I had a knee problem at one point. Like, okay, like my knee was just really painful. Like just above the kneecap. And I was like, okay, this is not good. Keep training, of course, in the gym. Maybe I just go train through it. But then kept worse. So yeah, at one point, the doctor was at the track. And he says, I was going and say, yeah, I have a problem with my knee. I cannot train. And he was like, what? He was like shocked, you know, like, what's going on? Yeah, I don't know. I have knee pain. Then he directly called the physio. I had to go to Papandal. Then they fixed it in like, like, maybe in one week, it was gone. And but, you know, it's, it's, when I think back, it's like the level of amateurism of myself. And also, yeah, how we were as a team at that time. I wasted some time there. I remember I spoke to a local, local hero here of, of my club, who was Olympic champion team pursuit or team time trial on the road in the 60s. He said, yeah, you have to get some, some kale, like, like, you know, kale flower and put that on your leg and sleep with it in the night. You know, that's then it's going to be, it's going to be over in a couple of days. Like that, that was the level. I was at, you know, anyway, so I'm just, yeah, that was, and that made me a little bit insecure. But on hindsight, I think, yeah, I entered the injury or the kale, major insecurity. The injury, the injury, but the kill, I still will know if it helped or not, but the injury. My knees are super good. My knee. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, they made it a delicious dinner. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. In the winter, we always eat it. It's really good. Burecomat was. Oh, yeah. Anyways. Yeah. Where was I? Yeah. So then, yeah, we went into, yeah, so on hindsight, I don't know if it, maybe it was a good thing, you know, to, do not over train or you never know. But anyways, went to, to Athens. I did kilo. I did team sprints, team sprint. We were six, I think kilo. I was, I, I got stuck in the gate. So I lost like some time there. So it was a really bad, until then, it was not good. Then sprint tournaments, qualified second, Ryan Bailey was, he did 10, I think he did 10, 17 at that time, which was, was, at that time was quite fast. And I did 10, two and all. He also did 10, two and Bure Gain also did 10, two, I think. And, and, and yeah, first rounds really easy. Quarter final, I was against the Ross, Ross Edgar, who I beat, yeah, was, was, was quite easy to beat him. And then I had semi final against Renee. And Renee, he was like, yeah, he was super good. He wasn't at the World Championships in Melbourne in the couple of months before because he crashed in the training. There was some repairments on the track with some guy on the ladder in the turn. And he did a full 200 meter. And, I, I just love how, how did he not like, either see him next time, or how did the guy with the ladder not see him? I don't know. He's 20 years ago, you know, different times, like, they're less safety measures. Yeah, yeah. So he was, he was out. So, and he was, the year before he was super good at the Worlds in, in Stuttgart also. So he was always, he was going to be up there. And, and tactically, he's, he's super good. Renee, he's like, he's really clever on the like he knows how to to write smart. And I start against him. I was a bit like, okay, I have to, I have to be super focused and sharp and be aware what he wants to do. And I think I got him on the hip like with one lap to go two times. So at one point I moved underneath him and we started to sprint and he was on my back wheel basically on my hip and we started sprinting together with one lap to go and he had nowhere to go and I beat him from the front. So I was super happy with the with the metal. And then yeah, against Ryan who was faster than me in qualification. He was also quite convincing in the sprint hits against Bullgun. Oh, sorry against against Ghanay. It was against Ghanay. And the first hit I, I'm in second position and I take a gap and suddenly he's gone. And with one lap to go, he accelerates super fast in the saddle. And I'm and at that time I move also up a little bit. So the gap is like, okay, it's crazy big. I go full gas to the wheel and I just pass him like with like this. And that was it was super difficult, but I went in the first seat. And then the second hit I go from the front. I start from the front, but at one point I let him pass, let him pass me. And I wanted to do the same race I did against Renee. So just pass him again and get him on my hip and then then ride with him to the finish like that. So I tried that and it didn't he took a gap and then he came. I saw him coming to my to my back wheel, everything I have. And he just passed me in the end, just like also like a few, few centimeters. And then the third hit I again, I thought, okay, I'm going to do the same tactics like what I did against Renee. And now I do it better than the second hit against him. But yeah, then he hit that one. Yeah, he rolled me quite easy, I think, on the finish. And I remember I went to the last bend and I saw him coming really fast. And when I enter the turn, I went to the black line. And he was quite high. And then in the halfway the turn, I just went one time full guess, I think to the red or maybe above like, I feel like this call of a this call of five me, that's also okay, but he had so much more speed. So he beat me at that time. Yeah, I mean, this is the this is the days of sprinting when like going from black to the blue is pretty, pretty common. So I think I think they can forgive yourself a little move above the red. I don't think I have, but I think that's because when I'm looking for track bikes, I look at the village of shop and there's only good deals on there. And yeah, yeah, let me tell you, while the Koga Kinset and the Koga Camera is on Veldrum shop, you will get it at a cutthroat price of definitely not 500,000 euros. What else can you get on the Veldrum shop list? And it's got all your track cycling needs. Well, yeah, and you've got more to pay on top and I could you look at the wheels, you'll get the chain ones, but you can get them all. Why are you buying it? Why not a ground on a wheel? You know, no bother. And the beauty is no matter where you're buying this stuff, you can get it delivered to you free of charge. Why is that, Johnny? So wherever you are in the world, wherever you want your bikes, wherever you want your stuff, Niambea, the Maldives or Maldova, wherever you are in the world, Veldrum shop will sort you out. Yeah, but yeah, so I guess that's what's interesting because like, say within cycling and the Netherlands and you say like track sprint wasn't a thing back then, which also seems quite crazy now when you think about the successes of the Dutch team. But like, so what, what, what did that, what did that medal mean? I guess, you know, I've got going to the Olympics as much as, yeah, you slipped out the gate in the kilo, you know, yeah, the team sprint was sick. But yeah, for a Dutch rider then to win a sprint medal at the Olympic Games, you know, and it was the only other countries. Yeah, what did it mean? That was like, I think the first time in in in a hundred years Dutch person meddled in sprint. So it was like a really long time ago in in the world championships. There were some, yeah, some good sprinters in the past like a hundred years ago. There was like beat muscobs. He was five time World Champion sprint. He wrote them. They wrote an amazing book about his life. It was a sprinter from the 20s and the 30s. And I read that book from, yeah, like maybe 10 times. And it was very inspirational. And it has so many similarities still 100 years ago. Then then at this time, then you had in the 40s, 50s, you have young Derrickson and I even fled. They were dominating the sprint at that time. And then in the 70s, you have a line. It was one time World Champion, but that was it with the professionals. So you had that time professionals in amateurs. They were. And then and then I became World Sprint Champion. I was so happy. I was. My name was on the same list as as them, you know, but that was that was already in Holland quite a breakthrough for sprinting. And then yeah, the Olympic medal also that was, yeah, that made me for some time famous in Holland, let's say. And so that I mean, I guess like that that Olympic medal sort of checked off your dominance for the next years and they run up to Beijing and in the sprint competition, the original Harry Leverace and some would say. Where yeah, there was, you know, that few years right after, you know, you were pretty unbeatable across like World Champs and World cups and. What was the, what was what kind of changed during that time that just meant that you were just on top of things when. So yeah, I think we just got older and because in Athens, I was still just after atoms, I don't 21. And that years after we grew as a team like we were with Tim and turn. We just were consistently training really hard and yeah, and that was basically it and we knew what we had to do to be, yeah, to be the best and we. We still soaked everything up. We tried to make everything perfect, for example, we had a gym coach who helped us a lot. We got stronger in the gym. We had better technique. If you look at the gym plan, what in Holland, what they are doing now and also on the track, it's quite similar what we did then. With with our cleans or squads and and how that was how that program was how the gym coach run that program. So yeah, and then basically we got older and the yeah, we got a little bit better that that was it. Yeah, yeah, and like I guess at this stage where you guys we guys funded how did it work with it or was it only funded really through sponsorship or anything this at this point there is after after Athens, bit of success like. Yeah, yeah, you have the federation. So the federation they take care of the facilities like the fellow drone we trained on it was in Oleg Martin. I don't know what still wasn't there and I had my own private sponsors. So yeah, I think in in Holland in the media, I was kind of picked out because in 2006. I was I became World Champion Sprint and Kirin and at that time I also became a sports person of the year in Holland. And that that yeah, also kicked off from myself the interest of sponsors. So yeah, that that was that was that was really good. And but yeah, you know, to to to to run a successful sports program. Yeah, what do you need? Yeah, it's like you need the good facilities. You need a good velodrome. You need a good gym. And you need to write people staff on board to with the knowledge to become a better a track sprinter. Yeah. And what we completely overlooked at that time and also what I didn't know was the importance of aerodynamics. And that was, you know, the time that I became World Champion and 2005, 2006, 2007. Yeah, we thought, okay, everything is going super well, you know, like, okay, this is this is we're on schedule for Beijing. But little that we know we weren't. Yeah, yeah, and it's it's funny because obviously we'll come and we come to chat about Beijing in a minute. But that was like that was obviously the first games, which really showed that kind of GB approach of. peaking at the right time and everything else and he has just a aerodynamics, you know, with the bikes and the skinsuits and everything they rode. But, you know, we were quite interested also just in that. He's just said that that that world in 2006 and Bordeaux, you know, and I think there's a move that people are seeing that's became quite common with, you know, obviously comments. The last two euros in a row, Harry Love Racing has, you know, has done the thing when he'll win by a straight and he'll set up and he's got a photo of him at the finish line. He never else has come on out of turn four. But you were actually there if ever, so I guess for any of our listeners haven't seen it, just look up tail boss 2006 Bordeaux Keirin and you'll see the original OG of the finish line Keirin straight. You know, I do I remember even when I started, that was one of the first worlds I watched when I came into the sport and I remember seeing it and going, gee, like not even like, wow, this guy's incredible, just like Jesus Christ. Like how is this guy on a completely other level as everyone else? So yeah, like even even I guess for before we can talk about Olympics, yeah, that was almost the tail boss in his pomp was coming in that 2006 and Bordeaux 2007 and Palma, you know, Golden Silver, the sprint and Keirin, like, yeah, what was it like for you then and that, you know, it would like to seem that move. Did you plan it? Like, yeah, like if you look after Athens then 2005 the worlds were in LA there I lost my my sprint title. So I was I was at that time also, yeah, still the fastest printer, but then I had a I had it I was a fastest in qualification, then I raised against and quarter final it was still one heat in the quarter final. It's the only time I think they did that at Worlds. I raised against Joe B. Dica and Joe B. He was like before Athens, he was like in 2003 he was second at the World Championships in sprint and he was super strong and he had an amazing jump. Like his acceleration is like it's phenomenal at that time the best in the field and I went from the front. I speed up and then suddenly he's just on the back straight he's next to me with an amazing jump and I just accelerate accelerate and he just beat me and I was out at that in that sprint when I won the kilo. I won the kilo it was still at that time it was still on the Olympic at Olympics but later that year they took it off the Olympic program. So after that year when it they took the kilo out of the Olympics for the BMX medal I focused fully on Kirin and sprint and then so yeah I prepared for Bordeaux and I learned a lot from from Joe B that okay I cannot wait with my sprint a little bit too long because some people have good accelerations they will they will just pass me earlier and I trained to start my sprint also earlier and with that lesson from from LA I went to Bordeaux 200 meter went well and then the sprint tournament I ordered the Kirin was first year team for in Dan Kirin and the Kirin yeah it was super good I remember I was in the final with with Tony Mildor he was a defending world champion and with with the Spanish rider not Villain Wave as a great oh yeah I can't forget his name yeah and and also Bulldog was there but I remember as a great oh he was he took a silver medal in Athens and he has always one tactic he take the front after the pacer then bulldog on the brakes or don't pedal let one rider pass pick in and finish second that was his tactic so I said to turn my my teammate I said okay you know the pacer is going to go out two and a half laps to go as Kratos going to take the front I said I will go full gas 500 meter and you know you you can stay in my will whatever happens we will finish I will win and if you pass me you win so he said okay so we were in the last position I was in second last position Tony was in my will and Kirin pulls off as Kratos takes the front and he slows down a lot but at that time I'm going full full full gas with with two laps to go to the front and Tony is in my will and I yeah I you know I cut off the group quite hard like I pass them really closely and turn at that time when I pass them he get a he get a hook so he yeah he almost crashes at that time so it's only me going ahead and I look back under my saddle and I see as Kratos has already a big gap and I continue and yeah he could never he could never close the gap to me again and then I won like that so that was what then later I talked with also with as Kratos and he said yeah he said I he tried for two pedal strokes to close the gap and then he said I'm I do after that I just defend my second position and just loves finishing second yeah we've kind of alluded to it so through that period of time you're obviously like when everything you've got like the world record and the fine 200 meter during that time as well and then it comes round to the Beijing Olympics and you know it doesn't perhaps pan out like you would have wished or perhaps thought and you know based on the here you reflections on why you think it didn't you know why it didn't sort of culminate with with so yeah so the Bordeaux was like a major highlight and then then we had the worlds after that was in in in in in my orca 2007 and I improved from from Bordeaux speedwise to my orca but I saw that that other riders are getting closer you know at that time it was like 10 riders I think they are they are already super close to it to each other it's not like these times only a few are fast and and and that's it you know different times back then it was it was I think it was more dense at that time I won the sprint and and again again because in Bordeaux I did the final against Craig and which was which was also super fun did Craig was Craig everyone and as he ever been in this in this spot cast or no no yeah is it is on our list of people okay yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah there's many good stories but I also have many good stories about him but I cannot tell it in this spot cast but I think any story any story I've ever heard of three even from that final I have a nice anecdote but I cannot tell but then and then I in in in in my orca I had a semi final sprint against against Craig and and then the final was against the Bordeaux but yeah it went that went really well but I was beaten in in a Kirin by Chris so Chris also focused after the kilo was taken off the Olympic program he also focused more on sprints and and and kilo yeah because that that was at the time when you know when Chris started in the Kirin and then he would just do his two and a half laps in the front and almost no one could get round him at that time that was you know really when he started his get a true ascendancy I guess up to that up to that level that we saw from him when you know three gold medals in Beijing and so yeah so he was he was he was he was after Bordeaux he did his last kilo then in my orca I was focusing on on I'm not sure sprint but but definitely Kirin he was World Champion Kirin there and then you know we had the winter everybody focused training then the first World Cups he was he was already at a good level there I won a World Cup in Beijing in 2008 I won team sprint and sprint I think with return and the and team and then we had Worlds in Manchester in 2008 and that was in two that was in March and yeah everybody super good level the French were good you have Kevin Siro he was super strong Borgão was super strong but if he was good there yeah the the British were good Craig Ross was was in good shape Chris was in super good shape so it was it was it was a very very difficult World Championships for me because in quarter final in sprint I raised against Chris and then yeah he beat me so yeah that was like okay a little bit you know a little bit a lot difficult for me to to handle you know you go as a World Champion four years in a row you go to you World Championships just before the Olympics or at the Olympic year and then you you get beaten and then after that World Championships so I lost my my sprint title Chris won one that sprint title we we went back home and then we we sit all together I wish like okay. We have to make a training plan. This is the training plan. And now we're gonna go full-guess training towards the Olympics. And yeah, I think also because of that loss, yeah, what we did wrong was like training way too hard. Like almost snow, we got a week, just, you know, 12 weeks straight. Okay, we have to do everything perfect. And then at the end of those, at that big training block, like a one month before Olympics, I was totally that, like totally exhausted, not in good shape. And then it also gets into your head, you know, you get insecure, am I good enough? Yeah. Am I even, you know, can I even get my old level, like my Bordeaux level, for example, or my my my Yorker level, whatever? Yeah, because that, yeah, I was sick. Because that's something I was really keen to kind of touch on to, is yeah, you go from being, you know, the dominant sprinter in the world, you know, you win world-cure and world, you know, world-f-sprint titles. You know, you're winning curons, the world final by 30 meters. And then yeah, you go in the year of the Olympics, out in the quarter finals, and almost in that kind of ascended British team, like, yeah, that must have had some level of effect on your mentally as well. Yeah, I'm sure it went two ways, like, at the Worlds in the four bench, Manchester, I was already like pushing really hard. And I had difficulties doing good times, you know, like good training times. Then the Worlds, my level was quite good. Also, the team sprinter we were third was quite good. But after that, because, yeah, we basically figured everything out ourselves, there was nobody really, a sprint coach above us, okay, Theo, this and this, are the numbers, it's going, it's spiraling down. You have to take a break, you know. We just, we just tried to push through, like, really, really amateuristic, yeah. It's like a rookie mistake. And on the other side, you have the British, they put in putting everything together. They are on, you know, on the rise every year, they got better and better and better. Yeah. And for my feeling, you know, after my orkai, I went just, worse, worse, worse. And they, I had difficulties even to get to my old level. And I knew like, okay, my old level, I knew I had to go sub 10 in 200 meters, for example, to be competitive in sprint. So, yeah, that was already moving, going towards Beijing. Yeah, I already knew it was like, okay, this is going to be difficult. I'm not going to be even at my old best level. So it's going to be, it's going to be a really difficult tournament. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think something that's quite, we actually were just discussing before we came on was, you know, this was actually the first time Koga. I remember, because I remember the lead up to the games, there was all this stuff of, you know, like, the new Dutch Superbike coming. And it was the original Koga Camera that was made, you know, it was the Theo Boss bike. Yeah, they just, I guess it's like a little bit of, I don't know, it's cycling heritage. Like, yeah, what, what, what was the kind of process involved with that? You know, is there making this new super, the Superbike, sorry? Yeah, it's like Koga at that time was my, my private sponsor. And they didn't, they, they made road bikes and they make normal bikes. And they sponsored the national team for a long time, but they make aluminum bikes like just standard aluminum scondium frames. So until until 2003, we just rode on aluminum frames. And going towards towards Athens, we said, okay, the bike is, and it's not competitive. We need better bikes. Then they bought like 20 BT bikes. So I, I rode on a BT in, in Athens and also the years after. But Koga, they want to, they want to have made, they want to make their, their own track bike. So yeah, they say, okay, we want to make a track bike. What do you want? I said, okay, it has to be super stiff and, and not too heavy. And they say, okay, and they make the bike based off a little bit like, like the, like the BT looks a bit has some similarities. And it was, it was light and it was super stiff. So yeah, okay, that's, that's, that's super cool, super nice. And they make, at one time this, this bike was finished. And they wanted to make a presentation about it. Like, okay, we present the bike, the new bike for the Olympics. And you know, they put in some money for it. And yeah, they also want to sell the bike, you know, and they want to advertise it. And at that time, yeah, there was a lot of media in Holland. They were interested in track cycling and me and in this story. So at one point during the presentation, it was an all-around. Journalists ask the guy, the CEO of Koga is like, so what is, what is, what, what did it cost, you know? And he said, like, yeah, the whole thing, I think, of course, like, all the things that went into the normal testing, all the people working for this bike, maybe 500,000 euros. And then the headline was like, the new Koga bike, 500,000,000,000,000,000. Yeah, yeah. And then it became like this bike, this is the bike of half a million. So it became like a, yeah, it was really sensationalized. And I had, I have to say, it's like, okay, this is just, this is a track bike. You know, it's not like, it's not like something super special. It's like, yeah, yeah. One off, it's, it's caused like a couple of thousand euros, but it's not a bike of 500,000 euros, you know? Things are still those headlines nowadays. Like, you know, it's every time being recycled doesn't make a bike. It's literally exactly the same thing. But you know what I was wondering has like, I mean, forgive me if I'm, if I'm being, did Koga just kind of give up after that point and totally did the recent frame? You know what I mean? Because I can't remember a track frame between the chimera, the first one. And then, no, no, they made it to the next one. Yeah. Yeah. So that story became, became really big and even I was like on the, the front page with a picture with the CEO of Koga of Time magazine. And it was like bike of half a million euros. So it was a really big story. But yeah, it cost, it cost them also a big investment. And I don't think they, they, they got their investment back. And so it took a long time until they, they were going to make a new frame. And that was the, you can say, that was, yeah, that bike was a, they learned a lot from making the chimera bike. And yeah, they, they had also making the, they can say they had much better communication with, with the whole team. So everybody had their inputs. There was more people involved in, in, yeah, creating in that frame. And yeah, so it's, it's like chimera, two point zero. And then that is, it's amazing. It's a great, yeah, super good. So one of the ones that fit people that are like six feet one and above. Yeah, it's inclusive. Yeah. But, but I saw, I guess, I guess then like speaking of, of Beijing, because as you said, already, there's that, you know, that feeling of, yeah, quite reasonable insecurity, coming into Beijing, you know, almost does, does your training program work? Are you going to be at the same level, even that you were before? You know, you'd said as well already that that almost maybe where you guys also got it wrong was around the aerodynamics and everything else. And yeah, you know, that you, you came in, you know, into the, into the Olympics, riding sprint, riding, curing and, yeah, you know, you qualify to think, what was it qualified with the 1031 Beijing, which obviously, you know, you said, you're even at that sub 10. So like, talk us three. Yeah. So for, we have what, what, what was that like for you? Yeah. So personally, for me, I was, I was going in. I was like, okay, this is, this is probably not going to happen with the legs I have now. But the only thing I can do is just fight like crazy, you know, you can also get into the tournaments. You can improve during the tournament. You can do a lot also tactic wise. So yeah, just, just don't give up, you know, it's, it's still Olympics is maybe, I have only one more Olympics left in my legs. You never know what's going to happen every four years. So team sprint was, was not, not great. Then, then I had, then we had curing and I knew, okay, curing, this is the only probably possibility for me to, to win a medal. And, and I must say, it was in the, in the, in the, in, I think the first round or it went quite well. And at one point, I think it was the, I was in the semi final and you have to make it top three. And the heat, I was in a, in a, in a relatively easy heat. So I thought, okay, I can make it to the final. Then in the final, anything can happen, you know, then we start and we write one lap behind the pacer and I was behind the police rider and he clipped wheels with the rider in front of him. And he fell and I fell over him. And I was like, okay, this, suction, you know, we have to start again. But then the jury, they're like, okay, you have to get off the track. The race continues. As like what race continues, I just fell, you know, I guess. Yeah, you just inspired. Yeah, fire to come and I was laying on the track just to stop the race. And I went off the track and I thought, okay, we can start again. But I didn't know the rule was like, if there's a crash after half a lap or something, the race continues. So like before the bikes piled off. Before the bike pulled off, yeah. Yeah, we started. So race was done. That was the Kirin. And I was like, okay, this, this, you know, this is the, I can't believe it. And then there was still sprint tournament, I think, and I think I made it to quarter final. And then I lost against Bougain, who eventually took bronze. But yeah, it was, it was a disaster, this, this Olympics. And not only for me, it was for the whole team. The whole national team was a Dutch team was horrible. Like one thing that is, it's, it's maybe symbolizes all the bad things is that the team pursue team, they were warming up on the blue line. And, you know, they were just riding in the drops on the blue line, quite easy. And I think one rider was getting out of the saddle standing. And the rider in fourth wheel, it was Lady Hymons. He clipped, he clipped the wheel. It wasn't on the home straight. And he clipped the wheel. And he just got his bike under, under him again. But he just moved straight onto the infield where our coach Peter Peters was standing. And he just hit him full gas from the front with, you know, with the skis in his stomach. Geez. Yeah, it was like that was, that was crazy. That was like, yeah, he was, he was, he was, he was out, you know, so like every day, every day, like a lot of things like this happened. Also another rider from Tim Persuad, he went, he went, that's what the coach told you Tim Persuad anymore. Yeah, exactly. Another rider from Tim Persuad, Nikita Rastra, eventually won Flambers and Roubaix. I don't know if you know. He went, he went, he went on the bike to the, to the, to the fellow drone. And then he had to stop suddenly for car or traffic or whatever. And he broke, he pulled a little bit too hard on his front brake. So he flipped over and he landed on his elbows, but he had a backpack on his back. So he broke both of his arms on the day of the Tim Persuad. No chance. So then the guy who was reserved, who was still in the village, he had to, yeah, they called him and he said, yeah, you have to come now, you have to start in like one hour. So he went full gas on the road bike to the, to the fellow drone, then put the skins to dawn and then they rolled Tim and Tim Persuad like that. So I was just, I always wondered like how, how badly it must have went to make you go to the world tour on the road and the soul kind of, not, they're actually, yeah. So that, that Olympics was a, was a disaster. And, and yeah, GB was at that time was like so super dominant. And yeah, to be honest, I was like, I cannot, I have no idea how to, how I'm, you know, I'm, I'm gonna beat them, you know, like it's gonna be the same in London, it's gonna be even, they're gonna be even better, you know, because they got all the funding from 2005 when the London Olympics was appointed to London. They got all the funding at that time. They put everything together. Yeah, with, I think, yeah, big influence from Dave Rilfsworth. And, yeah, I thought, okay, London is gonna be, you know, that they're, Beijing is just a step up, you know. And I have no idea how, how, how am I going to beat them? So, yeah. And then I thought, okay, I think it's something that's quite funny, I guess, because, you know, we, obviously being, being British, but you know, like, have both of us have been part of it, British cycling is, yeah, you, you, you almost always look at that, that narrative from the one direction, you know, of GB being dominant in at the Olympics. Well, I mean, track cycling starts in 2008. That's the, that's the narrative that I've been saying from a young age. Yeah, yeah. It was like, can you do this in 2008? Yeah, it's, what's the classic British thing? We, it doesn't, it, like, we just pretend something doesn't exist if we're not good at it. But, but, you know, like, yeah, like, there is, there is that thing that, like, you never really kind of think, I guess, I've never really thought about it from the perspective of being on the other side and going, well, shit, what can we even do? So, yeah, I can completely understand at that point why you tap up rabble, right? Yeah. So, I think, sorry, I actually, it was going to be a tangent, but just how long rabble banks been kicking about, like, just supporting cycling nailing since, like, forever, but anyway, it doesn't matter. Yeah, they, they come back now again. They, they come back in support. They can't get enough. Yeah. But, at, at, like I said, in the beginning of the podcast, like, I started on the road and I was also coached by coaches from, from rabble bank. And rabble bank called, I spoke with them after Athens and they want me on the road. And I was like, okay, shall I do it? Yes or no? In the end, okay, I still want to try to go to Beijing and win a gold medal there. I'm not finished on the track in track sprinting. And in Beijing, my old coach was there also in Olympic Village. He was also still coaching the triad, and triad leads. How do you say that? Triad lawn athletes? Yeah, triad leads. And so I was obviously super disappointed and, and he's like, okay, what about you can still, you know, give it a give it a go on the road. And and I was like, okay, yeah, what, what else can I, you know, achieve on the track? Will titles? Yes, that would be super nice Olympic gold medal in London. Yeah. I saw myself a small chance doing that. And I still, I always had that little dream of the kid still riding on the road. And, yeah, they gave me the opportunity and, and that was a whole new chapter in my life, which maybe you guys as a trix sprinters can be boring for you. But, yeah, for, for me, it was also that was an crazy high. I'm a road cycling fan. I just happened to be good at track cycling. Okay, okay. But it was, that was, that was, that was that. So it started basically in Beijing in Olympic Village. That talks about, yeah, going back to the road or yeah, going to the road. You're thanks. Thank you for listening and see you later for part two.