Episode 42: Questions from our audience Part 1

What's happening in the K9 industry? For all the latest news, views and expert opinions, stay right here for the K9 paradigm. You'll hear from industry leaders, experts, giants of the industry, learned colleagues, moveers and shakers, and the odd, randy guest. Get the latest insights and expert advice from both here and abroad from the people in the know. Now, here are your hosts, Glenn Cook and Pat Stewart and I'm Lofty Fulton. And I'm out of here. Today's episode of the show is brought to you by IONswick Dog Quip. That's E-I-N-Z-W-E-C-K. Dog Quip, who are an Australian retailer of Dog Trankquipment. Basically, you name them. They've got it. It's Jason Furman, good friend of the show. He runs his business all via Facebook, doesn't he? Yes, all via Facebook. So looking up on Facebook, it's IONswick E-I-N-Z-W-E-C-K. He can sell you pretty much any Dog Trankquipment. Jason's Dog Tranker himself, pretty good one, has some dog mints, and everything that he has is stuff that he's used, Trial, used himself. He's the Australian distributor for HF Mills. If you want one of those, talk to him. Hermes Bringer. He's the importer of most of the prong collars. You can get your hands on. First savers, all that kind of stuff. He has Dog Pool harnesses and equipment, balls, tugs, leashes, brammerware, bleashes that you can get personal lives. Lots of things. All those things, all your dog training needs. That's where I send all my clients for their basics. Talk to Jason at IONswick Dog Quip. Welcome back to the canine paradigm. I'm your host, Pat Stewart. I'm joined in the studio by my co-host Glen Cook. The studio. I called it the studio. And today it's just us. It's just us. We're here without a guest in the room, which has been, it's a bit of an anomaly, really. Yeah, it's been a while since we've done one without a few weeks, well months. Hey, you know what we should talk about before we kick off onto what we're going to talk about? What? Our origin story. Where we met each other. Haven't we not done that? Have we? Somebody said we haven't. I think we've done it out origins, but did we talk about where you and I met each other? Well, I wrote on Facebook that you saw me and said, "That is what a man looks like." Okay, running over. Excuse me, sir. Can I touch your beard? I just wanted to say hello to a man. That's how I remember it anyway, and that's all I'm prepared to talk about. I remember it differently. How do you remember it? I remember Tiana saying there's some guy called Pat Stewart here who wants to say hi to you. That was at the hands of an Esther Seminole, the first one they held here. I said, "Who?" And she said, "Pat, do you know who he is?" And I said, "No." She said, "MSK." I said, "Nope." And she said, "Oh, he's here and he wants to say hi." And I said, "Okay." You had magnetic balls at the time for people who don't know what they are. I'm talking, not Pat's own balls. It's stick to metal surfaces or anything. I'd never seen those training balls before. Yeah, that was pretty new at the time, and I'd got mine in the stage. The top of magnetic balls or whatever they're called. So you have shown me them, and that's how we actually got to meet each other. So it was at the first hands and estes seminar that was here about three years ago now. Three or four years ago. Three years ago. Three. Three. How old's it? Three. And he was not born. No. So it was, yeah, a bit over three years. Bit over three years. No, I remember I wanted to meet you guys, and I wanted to have a look around here, because I remember I had that dog rider that was really a not easy dog to board places, and I was excited at the, like when I was here, I thought, I kind of want to just check that this could be a new place for him to stay, because I had to, I used to have to take him back to where I got him from, which I did not like to do at all, but I didn't really have too many other options 'cause they could manage him. And then when I realized that you guys could do that, that was, I was like, oh, well, I should meet the guy that runs this place. And then you thought, wow, so we're getting back to that. This guy has magnetic balls. (laughing) Yeah. That was pretty, and then I saw you working Val. Yeah. And I was pretty impressed that you had a little, I've made it no secret, I'm always impressed when I see people that do great things with dogs that aren't high end working dogs. And when I saw you, I just thought you were some random John O, and then you pulled your dog out. And you're one of those people who got this little dog out, who was obsessed with dust and fluff on the ground, and then all of a sudden she's doing like perfect hills between your legs and like running around a whole group of people on and then coming back to a hill position and healing nicely through a crowd of people. I thought, fuck, this dude knows how to train dogs. Yeah, well, the funny thing, the reason I, the reason I had a working spot at that seminar was I wanted S's opinion on whether I could-- On Val's autism. Yeah, on whether I could get rid of her dust and sparkly light obsession with the out-crushing drive and the consensus was, no, who couldn't, and but why would you because I can manage her through it? So yeah, and to be honest, Val drives a lot of people crazy. She isn't for a lot of people because I mean, she probably is, she's insanely a high-drive dog for the things that she wants for the dust and the flashing lights and all that kind of stuff. So she never stops. She never stops, like she's like that all the time in the house running around. I can tell her to stop. I've got to put some videos of Val just doing some random Val stuff up. Yeah, well, I've got video-- I'm going to appreciate-- I'll find it in my phone. I've got a video of Remi asleep and Val just running around him in circles. Like literally on-- he's asleep in the middle of the lounge room and she's just doing circles around him. You should time lapse that one day. That would be hilarious where everybody is still on Val is just not being still. But so that's what she chooses to do. And I can use it as a reward. So it actually isn't a problem at all because I know how to manage it. It's not a problem in any way. And for us and many of the people that are listening to the podcast, we're the sort of people who will tolerate that in dogs. Like we're not intolerable about that type of dog behavior. So for us, it's just how my dog is. I can live with it. It doesn't bother me. It's the same with Randy. I mean, Randy is-- it's like more Tisha's quote, "What's normal for the spider is chaos for the fly." So for me, Randy's behavior is not really a problem. It's what I was asked for in the breeder. It's what I wanted in him. I wanted him to be high end. He's got hectic drives. Fantastic for exactly what I want. But for other people, that's chaos. That would just drive the mad. Like a dog like Val in an eastern suburbs family, they'd just say, "I don't know why." I'm like, "Well, that has to be it." That'd have to crush her a bit. And she's not suitable for that. In her breeding's defense, like it's because she doesn't have a job that she does all that. She just does it because she's got nothing else to do. She's got a huge amount. Yes. And so when she-- She's hunting. Yeah. And kelpies and blue healers that get put in backyards that shouldn't be there. Yeah. So when she's hunting, none of that's the present. It's when she's in a city townhouse that she's like, "Well, I'll trace Dustin's Barkley like 'cause it's something to do." But she will do, like that's her choice. She will do whatever I tell you. She'd be a great hunting dog. She is, yeah. So I take her hunting. I don't want to-- She's a very personal thing. And I can hear someone going, "Oh, it's because you don't know how, and it's true. I'm not a gun dog guy." Yeah. But the time and effort into teaching her how to do it properly because I'm not involved in that. So we take her hunting and she's a killing machine. And we would be disqualified instantly in any sort of gun dog trial. I'm not saying that we've done that. And I'm not saying I would know how to do that either. But I have never tried to do it because she loves it. And I don't need her to retrieve rabbits without chewing them. I just need her to flush them for me when we go shooting them. So she does that. She doesn't need any training how to do that. She came out of the box knowing how to do that. But anyway, yes. So that's Valerie and that I had it there. And that was the consensus. It was, can I stop this without crushing drive? No, because that's where her drive comes from. But is it a problem? No, because she'll do obedience and use that as a reward. And so it's no big deal. So yeah, at that-- I mean, look, I've seen that dog in full flag running, like where she's tear-arcing down the field. And you've given her one command called her back and she's there between your legs. Yeah. Yeah. And we put a lot of time and effort into that obedience. You know, we did the video series. You've got on your video series. Yeah. So we got her for the video series, which is available at mscandles.com. And he's just a complete guide how to raise a puppy. And we show all the problems that you might encounter and how to just raise a puppy. And it's not for work or for anything in particular. It's just a pet dog sort of thing. If we, as we say, if you follow it through, you'll end up with a dog trained exactly the same as she is. And like I say, there's nothing. It's not she's not a specific purpose dog. She's just my pet. She lives with me. She's what she is phenomenal at better than anything. And this was totally by accident. Nothing I did did this. And it's not why I kept up. But she is the ultimate nanny dog. She's so good at raising puppies. It's unbelievable. And it's good for dogs like Remi and other dogs to have some company at times. We're the non-imposing dog. We're making grow up and be the dog they need to be with a dog that's not going to try and put them down and slam them. No, she's the best at bringing like really making strong dogs. But I really explained it to me one time. The psychology behind it about exploration requires like a safe base. So my dogs are confident enough to go out and experience the world and become adventurous and outgoing and experience everything, knowing that she is providing a safe environment for them to come back to. And I have footage. I think I've spoken about it here before. I have the footage I've shown it to people on my phone. I've heard actually doing an object guard of a puppy. with a pop. is potentially at risk from another dog that comes in and it's a sharp pay, Val can't get a read on the dog whether what its intentions are like. And this puppy is just doing stupid puppy things rolling around on the floor. And Val actually guards a puppy, ushers this other dog off. And then the puppy doesn't even know that there was potentially a dangerous situation there. Doesn't she try and get toys to suckle on her and stuff like that? She did. She had a false pregnancy. So she wants to be a mummy badly. I feel bad about not. But yeah, when she had a false pregnancy, she had a really long one. When Jane was pregnant, she was pregnant. She was fake pregnant for over three months. Well Jane told me I was going to brought it on. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. And so she wouldn't give up on the idea that she was pregnant until Jane actually had ripped. And what we did was I thought this is such a bizarre story. I don't expect anyone to believe this. I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it. But at the gift shop at the hospital, remember she stayed here when Ripple was born. So I came and picked her up and we talked about this. At the gift shop at the hospital, the only software they had was this little rhinoceros. So I left this rhinoceros in the crib with RIP for like 24 hours. Then when I came out here, picked her up. I gave her this rhinoceros and she immediately grabbed it in her mouth and ran into the box in her car. I think you were there when this happened and was straight in the box with this rhinoceros little toy holding it. We went home and she carried that up into the house and my other dog was with me. And they used to be pretty good. They would share toys and stuff like that. And he went to get it and she bashed him. And then she carried it into her crate and was trying to feed it and was like nulsling it to feed. Yep. And I was like, this is the, this is too weird. I took photos of all this. It was the weirdest thing ever. And she was convinced this little thing was her baby. And I was like, okay, well, I guess this is how the fake brain was. I can still get those photos. Yeah, they're on my website. Yeah, they have to go up. They're on my website. MSK. Yeah, it's like a blog. Back when we used to use the blog, I haven't no one's posted on the blog forever because Facebook. But so she tried to feed this thing. So she's convinced this is her baby. Then the next day we bring RIP home from hospital and she gets one look at him. And it's like, she had like the little red ostrich in her eye. She was like, you fuckers lied to me. And it destroys it. You immediately destroyed the red ostrich. Like, this is a toy. You've tricked me. And then was trying to feed RIP. Like it was just so it was beyond weird. She would sit next to Jane and she was leaking milk. She had full others. She was convinced that he was her baby. You know where the term wet nursing comes from, don't you? Yeah, yeah. So like a surrogate feeder. Yeah, well, in villages when the mother has a baby, all the aunties and so forth come into what do they call it? breastfeed. Yeah, breastfeed, but they called it, what do they call it? There's actually a name for it when you. Being a witness. But when you actually start producing milk, it's called lactating. Yeah, yeah. So they all start lactating. Well, no, they don't start lactating. It's. Yeah, that doesn't work. Am I off-sit tangent? Yeah, go on and explain to me. They don't start lactating. If they're. If they're still producing milk from a child they have had, they would feed. And so. I've heard this story differently. I've heard the story that women will have false pregnancies as well. Yeah. And they will lactate and they can help to feed the baby in villages. That's what I've been told. I don't know if that's 100% true. There's anyone out there who wants to. Who's medically versed, who would like to challenge that theory or tell me something different. I'm open to it, but that's what I've heard from a medical background. I would be surprised if that's the case. Like the idea of community feeding or that sort of thing certainly exists and like a tribal sort of thing. Because they would have kids at the same time. They don't just start out of nowhere lactating. It's. How do females do it? Female dogs. Why do they have. Well, because she went through the frantum pregnancy. So. Yeah. You've all had a phantom from. Yeah, but if the humans had a phantom pregnancy, went through the whole thing intentionally. Yeah, this is a good topic. This is a good one for anybody who's listening. It's such a bizarre. It's not a good one. No. Well, it's certainly. There's certainly it's not just the the anti-start lactating. That's not. That does not a thing. It's that they would have had a kid or still be breastfeeding and they do. They feed them. Yeah. That sounds relevant. Not sure. Okay. We'll leave it. It's a good comment. Okay, so let's go on to. Because we're recording at a different time, we don't really have a topic other than I put out there, "Hey, I've got any questions for us because we don't have a yes to come on." Well, what happened was I've got NDTF all this week and I'm training them myself. So I'm flat to the board. Usually on Tuesday mornings we have someone lined up and because of the time zone, with America, we can talk to them at a relevant time that's suitable for them, but unfortunately this week we couldn't. So we only had Thursday, but yeah, Pat said, "Hey, let's. We've got plenty of people asking us questions. Let's go through a listener question. List." So when I put it out within two minutes, Georgie Harrington, what are the dimensions of the box? Georgie, that's a hug right there, for sure. It got 30 samples. That's a hug from me, Pat, and Brent. Yeah, that got. Incredit. You're getting it. 28 laughing faces and no one likes one of those. Okay, 28 hugs. 28 hugs, that is. But let me. Every smiley face, that's a hug. Let me reiterate, the size of the box doesn't matter. It's just a box that can be anything. My box is the internal dimensions are 30 centimeters by 30 centimeters by 30 centimeters. It's a square. It doesn't matter, though. And then I get. The lately I get people saying, "Oh, but it's hard for my dog to get into a box that size." That is the fucking point. Okay. Oh, it runs again. We've got to take up Chihuahua, and you've got a 30 centimeter box, which is bigger than the size of the dog, fully extended on its back legs, you're a peanut. Yeah. So listen to the episode. Understand that it's about there being some difficulty, and not being able to see what's going on around them, so that they can't be flighty looking around, and just adapt to that. Look at the size of your doggy, and the size of the box. And if you have got a T-Cup Chihuahua, they can make a T-Cup Chihuahua size box. Mine is 30 centimeters by 30 centimeters. And those are the internal dimensions, because mine will fit a clack-clack in it. And that's the only reason it's that size, is so that for other things that I use the box for, it can put a clack-clack in there. Yep. If you would like me to make you a full set of the boxes that I have, I can do that. They are $300 Australian dollars, and cannot be posted, because it's too heavy and expensive. Mm-hmm. But you're very welcome to come and pick them up. You can flight packet, can't you? Yeah, but it's way too tight. It's a full set of the boxes. Yeah, just the way. Yeah, for the full set of the boxes, it's a full sheet of marine plife of all boxes. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. That's fair. All right, let's go through our user questions, or at least in the questions, I should say, not user questions. Listeners. Laura Taff, not sure if it's been asked before, or covered, I'm a bit behind, but I'd love to hear more about how you guys raised puppies for the first year. What are the main important things you focus on? So you have a whole episode on that? Yeah, I think we did a, oh, we've done a couple of episodes on puppy raising. So I'm pretty sure that was, that topic has been fully explained. But the cliff notes for me is exposure, environmental exposure, toughening and conditioning, and like ignition. That's it. I don't really particularly care about teaching anything. I will, of course, teach many things along the way, and the dog will learn many things along the way, but I don't have a goal of, by this age, you should do this. And it's just, we use the learning as a toughening experience, or a drive building experience, or not drive building, but ignition building experience. So yeah, that's pretty much it. Yeah, if you haven't done something about your socialisation or your generalisation in any environment with puppies, then it's a mitigated disaster. You've primarily destroyed your dog. There's a very good book by John Paul Scott, called Genetics and the social behaviour of the dog. If you haven't read that book before, I'd recommend that you put it on your reading list. It's not a storybook. It's a scientifically backed based book on how they selectively trained, or not trained, but what the observations of behaviour they found in certain dogs at different ages of their life, and their exposure or lack of exposure to stimuli, being human and environmental stimulus, how that hadn't effect on them, and what it did to their overall behaviour, especially if you're raising dogs in a family home. So one of the things that you've got to do down pat is you must get that critical period done, and as Pat said, which you mentioned before, you've got to work on toughness in the dog as well. So having a stable and a social dog, a dog that has been habituated as well, which means that it's been introduced to machinery, non-organic or non-species related items, and then developing a symbiot relationship between organic and non-organic items. So you develop what we call a generalisation approach to things. So yeah, but go back to those episodes. Hopefully they answer the questions for you. If not, point out what you would like us to clarify specifically, and we'll make sure we piece that together in a future episode. Something I'm really opposed to in the raising of puppies is I see a lot of people still online, especially working dog people say that never let anybody else pat your puppy, or pat your dog. I think that's outrageous. Well, if you want a defensive puppy in a dog that's scared, then you've got a social issue. Yeah, exactly. So like you can train all that shit later, don't, like if you want to put aggression into your dog I'm gonna make it, wanna be aggressive to everybody. I mean, if that's what you want to do. to do. Do it later. Don't do it with a puppy. When we talk about cliff notes, I think what should be stipulated better there is don't let other people engage your puppy. Don't let people be the source of reinforcement for your puppy. If that's what they're doing, I think that's what they're confusing the whole path the puppy thing would. If your dog is becoming fixated and focused and rewarded by the presence of other dogs and other people and not you, then yes, you've got a problem. Let them see them, let them have exposure to them, let them understand that they're part of normal everyday life and that they can flow and move around them and they can occupy the same space. But you definitely want to have that dog learn that you're the source of entertainment and reinforcement. Yeah, so how I do that and get a wet nurse from a village. So I go out, I take puppies everywhere when I have puppies, they're basically they're on a harness and a flexileed and they go everywhere I go. They're pretty much leaving the car. Yeah, it's the best way to do it because it's mostly mallies that I have. People always like, oh, what a cute 20-year German Shepherd cat I've had him and I say, yeah, you sure can. And they they'll be a meter away whatever they go to call the puppy over, they bend down, they like, boom, boom, boom, when the puppy goes running over, let them basically touch the dog and then I click. And because of the way that I have charged and loaded the click, the dog turns around and comes flying back to me and gets food. Yeah, people look at me like you fucking asshole. What did you call your puppy away? And I love it. Thank you for your help. And anybody that knows my dog and like I've seen that program, I've done it with many dogs, but I've seen my dog and seen it all the way through is he is excited at the group of people but doesn't go soaking for pets. He's like, oh, there's a group of people that's a good. That's a good experience is high and by. Yeah, that's it. And so he knows that there's value in other people, but the value in other people comes from me. And so he's totally was close to neutral to people as you can get and vows the same like there is she has some people that she likes and will cuddle up to and that, but in general, she doesn't go looking for affection for anybody else. She's happy to be around people. She's not worried about people, but she knows that the value in other people comes from something that I will give her. And I'll do that with it. Have done that for a long time and we'll continue to do that because I've had such success doing it. But that's the beauty of owning a dog that's clear about what it's job or its performance is based on. It's like Harley. Harley would occupy the same space as people and you'd be quite happy to turn around and destroy those same people in a flash and then stop it as fast as you could say it because he knew he had clarity in his work. His default position was you're here. I'm here. Live and let live. Yeah. And that's what I want in all my working dogs. Same thing. So that's it, Laura. Really, it's foundation skills and toughness and I like nothing. There's no one behavior. I want to do an episode. I put a post up about the first thing you teach your puppy and that really for me was the cue into how we load the clicker and why. And the huge number of behaviors that come from that clicker and just the classical conditioning of when I click, I know you're going to do something I can count and I can make it that behavior. So we can talk about that another time. Rear of the nation. She wants to talk about the complexities of a difficult client. How to meet expectations and saying no. Oh, geez, that's a that's a good one. Well, this is a topic you go on for a long time but she specifically says how to meet expectations and saying no. So we could just focus on those how to meet expectations in saying no. Is that what she's asking? No, and saying no and saying no. I guess it comes down to making it clear where your stance is, what you provide and what your stance on your business is listening to the expectations of the client. If there's something outside the communication between you and the client, then that needs to be clearly discussed before any further progress happens. And I think the biggest problem between a client and a business operator is they have poor communication amongst themselves like your policy on whatever you're offering might be poorly explained. And if it's not and your policy is clear, then you need to explain that clearly to the client in language that they understand because sometimes people win turbot things entirely differently than what it's proposed. So what I generally say to people is what is your expectation? This is our company stance or our business philosophy. What was your expectation around that? If they have something else in mind or they've poorly interpreted, I'd point out in a nice way the error in how they've interpreted. But we want to try and get them back to the point where we're both agreeing with each other rather than fighting over semantics. And sometimes you might think to yourself, is this really worth fighting over? Is this really worth losing a customer or losing a bunch of people? Is this worth getting a bad exposure on social media? Where do you draw the line? And I guess that's a personal thing where you have to decide yourself is what am I fighting am I fighting on principle or am I right? And what I'm saying. I agree with all that. I think from my point of view, and I'm in a different sort of business, for me, how to meet expectations is I'm always very clear with people when I first start training with them that I am there to train them and they are training the dog. And I will rarely, if it's an aggression case or there's a problem, if I'm there to fix a problem with the dog, I might do the initial part and then hand over to them just to get the ball rolling with the dog and let the dog understand, like say teaching slip lead pressure or like prom collar pressure, I will show the dog how to relieve pressure and then I'll go to the people now you can use the thing I've shown the dog so that I can do that quicker and more effectively than them probably. But for people who have come to me before, like what I'm sort of calling now, like performance coaching of their dog, I'm always really clear, like I'm here to tell you how to put it into your dog. You're the person that understands me. There's no point in me making your, because I've had bad experiences where I can get a lot more out of someone's dog than them and then it's pointless because there's no point in me being able to handle their dog better than them. It just upsets them later. So I try to minimally engage with people's dogs or handle people's dogs. It's more me trying to explain to them. So I manage expectations by being really clear that you have all of my time and I'm explaining it to you, but you have a level of capability that it can and will increase, but it's you that I'm working on not the dog. Just as a side note on that, that's one thing as professionals that we can really screw up quite quickly with our clients is that we can go around there and in minutes we can get their dogs under control. And I like what you just said, it's less about you handling the dog and it's more about teaching them to handle the dog. The less hands on you having that situation and the more you say to people, look, I'm not going to do this, but I'm going to coach you how to do that. That's actually good ethics in there, because you can grab the dog. You can make the dog look wonderful. You can get the dog tuned up almost in five to ten minutes and have them go, wow, and leave them with false expectation. Whereas somebody else might say, well, I can show you what's capable, which isn't such a bad thing. I'm not saying it's a terrible thing. However, you're still not teaching them to fish. You're giving them a fish. Yeah, that's right. Okay. So you're not giving them a capability to walk away and saying, mate, thank you. I've got this now. I can actually take this to the level I need to. And when I'm stuck on that, I'll call you back and we'll go for round two. So yeah, I think that's great. I really like that. That's good. At the moment, I'm really into the why and less the how, as I'm explaining to people, because when you understand the why, then the how takes care of itself. And I think we had this conversation the other day. I certainly had this conversation with a client recently. Who perhaps listens? So hello. But if someone asks you, you say, okay, do this. And they say, why should I do that? If you don't have the answer to that, then you're in a, you're in a difficult situation. So you really got to understand the why, why, why am I doing that? And just as an example, because it might have actually been the one I was talking about with her that let the dog go to other people, click and bring them back. I have to understand, like, I can tell you do that. But then when they say, why am I doing that? I need to understand the why. If I got to be able to regurgitate that and really know it, not just know how it works. And I think certainly I have been guilty in the past, of just teaching people, do this, do this, do this, you'll get the result. But along the way, something may happen and they can't do those things. And they have to know the journey, not the destination, so that they can take an alternate route to get to the same destination. All right. I'm going to bring up an example. And somebody that I've talked about on the show, but I'm very impressed with their work. Okay. Jordan Peterson. Oh, my old mate. Your close personal friend. We're besties now. Close personal friend. But I've listened to quite a few of these podcasts. I've obviously read these books, but I was watching him last night. He was debating a transgender thing. And he was talking about how he didn't like the fact that he was been forced into compelled speech, compelled speech. And he didn't like it. The way he responded to it was primarily what you were talking about just before. He was very thoughtful in his responses. He took his time and he answered it. I think he answered it very well. They kept asking the same questions and they kept coming at him and around about fashion, but he kept saying, I've already made my position clear on that. I've given you the answer. Like you asked me that three different times in three different ways. I've made it clear. If for anybody who is discussing a topic, I think that's very important. You have to have the ability to say, I'm a paid professional. If you're asking me why, I really need to have the answer for you. Yeah. Or at least one thing that we used to say earlier on in old days when we had a strained dog training back in Melbourne nearly days was we're always encouraged to say to people, if somebody asks you a question that you don't know the answer to, just say, I'm, look right now. I don't know. But I'll find out for you and I'll get get back to you. that's the best I can do with this right now. People actually appreciate that, because they don't appreciate it when they just know that you're fumbling through it like my perception of witnessing before. (laughing) - Was that from Boyd? - That was from Boyd, boyd. - Yeah, that's that. - And that's actually like, that's part of the army lesson before it's the blueprint. - Yeah, it's the blueprint. - Well, it's just general army, the blueprint. There's actually a thing where if you get asked a question, you don't know the answer to, and it's a thing that every army person rallies off. That's a great question. I don't have the answer for you right now. However, if you come up and see me later on, we'll find that out together. - That's exactly what we were saying people. - It's literally a script that every army person gets told, because that's how you avoid getting caught. It's the same as we were talking about before, you can never lie to a group of people because you will come unstuck. There's no point fluffing your way through. If you don't know, and you can't work it out there on the spot and unravel it, well, first of all, you're in the wrong room, but if someone asks a red herring and you can't figure that out, then you've got to come clean with it. - Yeah, it's good morals for life, really. - Yeah, and you just save yourself looking like a fucking idiot. You're better off going, hey, I don't know that, but together you come and see me after a lesson and we will go and find out that answer because you've triggered my curiosity. And now you, what you also do is don't make them look like an idiot if it is a stupid question because you go, you've triggered my curiosity. - Jordan Peterson. - Yeah, tell the truth or at least don't lie. - Yeah, exactly, right? - Love you Jordan. - I'm called Jordan. - Great book, should read it. - Really, really should read it. - Life changing. - Okay, and saying no, I just tell people to get fucked these days. I really, I did not expect that. It's just like, where did they come from? - Well, I do because I'm not, like I just am not interested in bringing that level of unnecessary stress into my life. (laughing) So, is that funny? - Yes. - Just the way that you just, you even, stop, you even, stop, I just tell people to get fucked. - Yeah, what I do, it's, God, that actually really made me laugh. - Yeah. I just, no, I'm very good with, just not invoking any unnecessary stress into my life. And so when people, if I've got to tell someone no, then I just go, "Hey, that's not, that's not how it's gonna go." And like give the reason. But also just get fucked. - I'm not, I'm not diving into that. - So, do you need any more than that? - I don't know. Good, you okay? - Not really. (laughing) - Okay. - Call me off guard. - So Abbie Phillips says, "Tips on how to read your dog." Sometimes I see people patting their dog and offering food or a toy in the dog reluctantly takes it. I bet I've done it before too. It's easy to get distracted, trying to teach the thing you're trying to teach and not reading the dog properly. So you think you're rewarding him when you're actually not. What are some key signs you keep an eye out for to notice when your dog is becoming frustrated like before it's really obvious? - That's a really good question. We were talking about this in NDTF today. We were out on the field, we were doing some training that guys, it's been a long week. It often is in NDTF. It's long weeks, long days. There's a lot of theory that's gotta be pushed into the min short duration of time. And then we were out on the field getting dogs. So big days, lots of travel. It's 10 to 12 hour days for some people with the travel, with all the work they're doing. So in one of those sessions, I was watching people starting to regress like they're with the dogs and I kept saying to them, only reward best behaviors. If you feel that the dog is starting to decline in its behavior and what it's offering, stop, don't do any more. Stop right there. Just goof around with the dog. Stop what you're doing. Don't give the dog any access to any more reinforcement. If the dog surprises you in behavior and gives you an offer to use something that is magnificent, of course, click the dog and reward it, but don't do anything else. Don't ask the dog for anything. Actually, I know I've talked about this before, we use a lot of butt balance phrases on this because we've done training with him and you know him quite well. But I love his analogy of ignition or getting the soup boiling. Like when he talks about making soup, you know, he often says, if the water's not boiling and not making soup, and it's the same thing when you're training dogs, if you haven't got that dog in a stage where the water is boiling, you can stick vegetables in that pot of water, nothing is happening. They're just floating around in water, suspended in water. That's, you come back three days later, same sort of thing, all the vegetables will be there. If the water's boiling in an hour, you've got tasty soup. You've got vegetable soup cooking and it's the same thing with your dog. If you haven't got it, you're not getting anywhere, you're not progressing, you're not doing anything, you're not doing any justice. In fact, you're doing yourself a great disservice because you're teaching a dog how to be lazy. You are teaching a dog the whole time, like you're teaching decline in behavior, not incline in behavior. - Yeah, I grew all that. And I think, I like to pay a lot of attention to my dog in that every dog has a tell for everything. And I think Sam said this to me the best. And I was just, he referenced a tracking. And every dog has a tell usually in their tail of when they're tracking and when they're looking for the track. - Yeah. - And you can tell, and there is no, the tail is up, the tail is down, the tail is, there is no rule, but there's always a different behavior in the dog. - It's significant to the dog. - The dog gets a signature. - Yeah. And so when he's on track, in the teaching phase, where you know exactly where the track is, pay especially attention to his tail. And then when he's off the track and you know he's off the track because you know where the track is, pay attention to his tail. And they'll be definitely be doing different things. And now you know. So when you are tracking for real and you don't know where the track is, you shouldn't be looking for the track. The dog knows how to do that. You should be looking at his tail and understanding whether he's on or whether he's looking for it or whether he's faking or whatever. And so there's always a tell. There's always something. And it's, you just have to pay attention. That's it. And as for overlooking, yet I think a spotter helps if you have someone you can train with. I think a training partner is very important that like you've pulled me up on many things and I've done the same to you because you can get caught up in the moment or you might have. That's a reason of having a community around you that you can work with or video yourself. Yeah, video yourself. Your video yourself and could take yourself quite stringently. The only like a spotter is better than video because video you're reviewing the past. A spotter can say, hey, hey, stop, you're going too far because I know I can be, I have a goal for every training session. And if sometimes you have to adapt that goal on the fly depending on what happens. Yeah, that's true. And you might not do that very effectively. And it's good to have someone. So this is with the rule of our club like you have to say before you bring your dog in or as you bring your dog in, you brief everyone. This is what I'm working on. Everything going according to plan, this is what I want to happen. And then it never goes exactly like that but you adapt on the fly. And at least everybody knows what's going on and they can say, hey, you're done enough of that, you haven't done enough of this, whatever. It can be, we can adapt. But having a spotter is a good idea. Yeah, that's a good advice. Yeah, so having a training partner in a spotter is a really good one. And just pay attention. Every dog's going to tell for everything. All right, M.Smyth says, tips on business side of running a dog business. Things you wish someone had told you, well, let me go first on this. Sure. I am terrible at that. So I don't really want to give any advice. I regularly forget to invoice people. I leave equipment with like I lend stuff to people and never get it back. I am really, really bad at the business side of my business. So Glenn. All of that. Yeah, all of that definitely. And I think to add to that is make sure that you've got a good accountant/financial advisor. Somebody who can actually teach you about what business really is. Don't go into things just half cock thinking, you don't want to sort of think, I've got a dream and then just, that's good. I mean, seriously, it's good. I mean, it starts with a dream. But the reality is set things up properly from the get-go. And that's probably one thing that I didn't do early in the day was I didn't get good tax advice. I didn't get good accountancy advice. Having a skill set in like being, you can be the best dog trainer in the world, but you can get fucked up hard by the tax department if you don't structure your business properly. And you've got to remember too, like if you're doing this, you're doing it to eat, like you're doing it to put milk and bread on the table. So the fact is, is that yes, you need that advice, but also, there's no point in just giving discounts to all your friends all the time. And creating friends out of your clients. They have to understand, this is your professional career. It's one thing that I did quite a lot too, is that I started letting my clients become my friends and then all of a sudden you felt bad about charging them. And then before you know it, you've got a bunch of friends that you've met, but you've got no money coming in anymore. That's not a good thing. And I mean, really, when even if you are somebody, you're just a friend. If they've taken their friend hat off and they're there to help you, I think as a friend you should expect to pay them for their time. Like if you've got that agreement between them, you should say, okay, I'm happy to pay you. If your trainer/friend at that point says, no, I don't want to accept the money and you've offered it anyway, well, that's on them. That's not on you. I'll give you an example of what happened a mere while ago, is that I used to do some bike training down in Melbourne. And I had a group of people that I was training with and I think at one stage it was something like 40 bucks ahead. They'd come down and train, okay? 40 bucks. So it wasn't much money, especially considering I was giving up a weekend to do it. So I went down there and there was about 10 people. So it was a good payday for the day, 400 bucks, back then. That was ages ago. And-- - Just to depulate ages ago, when bike work was- legal. When it was legal, it was 20 years ago. So it was quite some time ago. Before the legislation became tricky and difficult and complicated. Before the domestic feral on New Centennial, like changed and modified to stop people from having fun in Victoria. So anyway, we're down there and the group of people, I'd bring a barbecue down. I'd bring some drinks down and some sausages and I'd just said, "Look, if you want something else, bring it with you." After training, we'd have a bit of a power out and we'd sit down. So we became friendly. Because we became friendly, the group said to me, "Do you reckon we could start trimming some fad off this cost?" You know, like maybe 20 bucks. And I got up. This was the day that I'd actually grown up because I got up and I said to the guys, "That's it, guys." Trainings cancelled. And they said, "Why?" And I said, "Because I can't afford to do this. Like, this is my job. And I'm down here, I'm not just here to, like, I'm not a millionaire, I'm not here to enjoy my time hanging out with a bunch of guys." I said, "I actually need to do this because I'm giving up time with you guys where I could make all this money on a couple of private lessons. It's my back, my equipment, my petrol, my time to get down here, my time to get home. Like I'm down here for six hours training with you guys." And I said, "And the money is justifiable. But if you want to do it for that, it's not worth it for me." So you've got to have a look at it. I'm not a stingy person. I believe in being benevolent, where there's plenty of people that even here we look after a range of welfare groups and stuff like that. Like we offer free training and help for people in welfare. But at the same time, the business still must succeed. Your business still must succeed. And you've got to look at it from, "Do I want to succeed in business, or do I want to pack all of it up and risk my house, my car, and food on the table for my family?" That's the questions you really got to ask yourself at the end of the day. Yeah. It's a hard one. And as I say, it's not one I'm good at. I have struggled with that exact same thing. I'm getting better now because what used to happen was people who were into the things I really wanted to do. I didn't want to charge them much or at all because I wanted to do that kind of work. I'm lucky now that most of my work is that sort of thing. And so I'm getting better at it. But it is because if you're regularly trained someone, you're in their life a lot. And when your job is someone else's hobby, it's hard to keep charging them. And you just have to do it. But I'm not good at it. So I'm not a good one to hand out advice. That goes back to probably one of Rianna's original questions is have an agreement and stick to the agreement. If the agreement needs to change, then talk about modifying it. And that group did, they did actually talk about modifying it with me. But I just said to them guys, it's not worth it for me really, honestly. And I said, if you can get someone to do it that cheap, then good luck going and finding someone who can give you this good a product for that cheap. And I said, I'm not that cheap person. This is what I'm valued at. If you feel differently about it, then let's just cut ties now. Yeah. All right. Lisa Sheeramun says, it'll be really cool if you guys could talk about how this would relate to you. She posts a picture of a man with a man bun and beard. So that obviously relates to me. Hugging a dog. And it says, 93% of dog owners in the US say their dog has made them a better person in at least one way. I study found. So I grew that that's how it would relate to me. I totally agree that you're attacking me because I'm follicially challenged. No, no, no, no. Yeah, I grew that. I think that my dog makes me a better person for sure. My dog taught me a lot. I think that I am I'm applying a lot of the knowledge that I learned with the intention of putting it into my dog into raising my son. Yeah. And that that makes me really happy that I've preloaded all that info. And now I'm using it in a totally different application. But it's all the same shit. It's behavioral science. And I'm really happy that I have a lot of that a lot of have I told you about the swearing thing with RIP. We're talking about this just the other day with a friend. No, so he took up swearing because me and Jaina both potty-males as you probably realize if you look into this. No, not at all. After you just tell clients to just randomly get fucked. So RIP started swearing and he would say fuck quite a bit right at like two and a half. And I said to Jaina, okay, I know how to fix this. Yep. This is going to be an uncomfortable period. Okay. I said what we got to do is we got to go through the extinction process on this. We can't reward it. We can't punish it. We don't want to do any of that. Right. We just want to ignore this behavior away. So what we did every time he swore and he was so good at swearing broke my heart. He would it would always be in perfect context. Yep. Anytime he swore, I would just pretend that I didn't understand what he was saying. I'd say what did you say? And he'd read he'd say the exact same thing again and I'd say what I don't I don't get it. And like he'd say like just as an example, I want that fucking lolly. Right. And I'd be like, what? And we like I want that fucking lolly. And I'd be like, what are you saying? And he goes that fucking lolly. I want it. And he'd like re-geek the sentence. And he'd keep trying and I'll be like, what? I don't know. What are you saying? I don't understand it. I can't hear you. It doesn't make any sense. And he rearranged the sentence as many times as he had to. Eventually that rearrangement, he would drop the swear word and then he'd say like, I want that lolly. And I go, oh, the lolly and I give it to him. Yeah. Now it worked. He totally stopped swearing. He doesn't swear at all. And now he we we introduced that it's not allowed to be said. And he gets the pinch me if I swear in front of him and all that. But when you're at the shopping center and you're two year old, he's dropping the f-bomb like 30 times in a row rearranging your sentence and you're going, what? I can't hear you. You've got docs turning up on your doors and people walking past going, I can hear him. He's saying fuck over and over and you're just letting this happen. But worked perfectly. Like worked at Charmin and it was never not going to work. He learned that there's no success in saying that. I didn't I didn't have to rouse on him and then that's like what's taboo and it's a naughty thing. It's just no success. I just don't understand what you're saying. Perfect. And it worked great. Although we had to go through that. So that's just an example of one. A tool example. It's very good. I like it. It's a tool I used for. There would definitely be something I would do with dogs. Like I, like, you know, like there's a chain, like a behavior in the chain that I don't want there. I keep interrupting until they drop that behavior. Yeah. All right. Pamela Tomney says counter-conditioning and desensitization may be being covered before. Yes, it has. That's the box. That's how I do it most of the time. Don't probably need to talk about that anymore. Glenn, anything more on that? I think we could probably do an entire. What we might do is we're probably going to talk about aggression soon, not probably. We are going to talk about an aggression soon because I've been asked about it a bit of time. I do quite a bit of aggression training for people who run seminars, quite a lot for aggressive dogs because I've been around more aggressive dogs and most people have had hot dinners. That's really a good example of where the principles rely on changing the behavior of a dog. But I think it needs more time. I don't feel comfortable answering it in five minutes. Because it's such a. Okay. It's a great way to send it to very deep discussion. It's a good one to put in the bank. It is. Okay. Bendoor's. It's a Wang bank. Jesus. Somebody said that the other day, and I haven't heard that one before. Never heard it before. Oh my goodness. Put it in the Wang bank. Bendoor's. I'm stealing it and using it as mine. Bendoor's and says, "What things to do when introducing a baby into a household with a dog?" That's a good one. I think things I did and I got this advice from other people as well as any changes that will come about because of the introduction of the baby should happen prior to the baby arriving. You just talked about that before with Val and that little rhinoceros. Yeah. Similar things. Yeah. So I can talk about this really quickly. It's pretty simple. Put all your baby gates up. The issue is most people go from, "We're a single couple and we have the dog that has free range of the house and he's our fur baby and this is how we live." Then suddenly the new baby comes in and I don't have time for the dog anymore. The dog obviously then deals with the fallout of that. We could say that that's jealousy, resentment, whatever, but really it's just a change in scenario. What the exact emotion of the dog's feeling, who knows? But it's a change in the area. What it is. Put it in the context. What it is. Because I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about this and having people discuss it with me. Is the dog endures a lot of punishment in the presence of a baby. So the baby appears and the dog is consistently punished. It's negative punishment and positive punishment on multiple occasions, like in high intensity. So the baby comes out. The dog gets kicked, get away, scolded. It's completely turned upside down. It's a straight E 180 right away. So the dog goes from like a lavish lifestyle to a hellish lifestyle because of the baby. The smell, the sight of the baby, anything to do with the baby. Like if the baby cries in the dog barks or the dog barks and wakes up the baby, fire and brimstone happen. The dog's life turns into complete nutter chaos. So that's why a lot of people create problems for themselves because they don't do a good introduction process with the dog and they don't make the sight of the dog. A sight of the baby or a rewarding experience. Even before that. So I think that it's important that the changes that are going to happen in the house happen prior to the baby. I've been home several months. So you're going to restrict access to the dog. You're going to. It's leading into. Yeah. So like the dog that has free range of the house is now going to have certain rooms he's no allowed into. So it's beautiful. Prior to the baby coming home. So it's not the baby caused all this. Is you change all that access. You pretend that you're living the life with a baby. Change the dog's routine early so that he's new routine. is the norm when the baby comes home. I always say that with the introduction of a baby to a dog, one hand for the baby, one hand for the dog. Like I always have like in a calming, what feels like calming, padding nature to the dog. I'm always got one hand in contact with the dog, one hand in contact with the baby. So that if anything goes wrong and like I say, like my dog, Valerie, when I brought Rip Home, legit thought he was her baby. Even at that level, and she's a softist dog, she could never, like she would never hurt him. Even at that level, I don't trust the dog to be around the baby unattended. So for those first few interactions, babies in one hand, the dog's being pat with the other hand, and I mean pat right up around the head where the collar is. So if anything goes wrong, I can snatch that collar and defuse that situation or at least keep everybody safe. And then just the positive experiences around the baby is much impossible. - Absolutely. - And again, like that's probably a whole episode and all that, but that's the main thing is, I think my advice to people all the time is the changes that the baby is gonna occur to your house should happen prior to the baby coming home. - Yeah, I think that's great advice. - All right. Sharon, how do we deal emotionally with knowing that you have the skills and abilities to help dogs but either have clients who refuse to try, don't do the work or don't want to listen? Yeah, well, that sort of goes back to this is what I mean when I just tell people to get fucked. - Yeah. - You have to separate from that. - You have to divorce yourself from them because you can lead a horse to water but you can't make a drink. - Yeah. - The classic old saying which applies to customers, you can pour your heart and soul into it which a lot of people do and a lot of people take huge offence to this and it really psychologically dents people like they see it and they just say what the hell is wrong, you know, and they blame themselves for it and they take, they really take a hit to the pride and the ego over it. But what I've got to say to you is after many, many years of doing it is I've just said I've given you everything you need and I've given you access to other people and I've even said to people, look maybe I'm not the right person for you, maybe you need to hear it from somebody else or a feral, it's completely up to them. If a doctor tells you you've got cancer and you do nothing about it, you know, like you just choose to leave the lifestyle that you're living and you end up getting sicker and whatever happens happens, that's not on the doctor. The doctor gave you a list of alternatives that you can work with and said, you know, here's a list of things that you can try to fix the situation for yourself and it's this, I mean, effectively having a problem dog in the house is a cancer that started. Like, and especially for the dog, it's a death sentence starting to gear up. Well, to quote your close personal friend, Jordan Peterson again, there's a chapter in his book that he talks about, treat yourself the way as though, was it someone that is in your care? Treat yourself as though you're someone in your care, but the idea is you can't help other people if you're not in good shape yourself. So you got to look after yourself emotionally and you can't get caught up in other people's stuff, compare yourself to who you are yesterday and not who someone else is today. So you just can't get caught up in that. Treat yourself like someone you are responsible for helping. Yeah, exactly, right? So you got to look after yourself and that'll allow you to work with 100 other clients that will do what you're saying. And we'll put in the work. Yeah, that's right. If you get too caught up in one, that'll burn you out and that's the end and you don't get to help all those others. Yeah. All right. Moving on, because we are running out of time and our club is about to turn up. Neapopo, Avary Aquila, Neapopo for dummies. Well, Neapopo is a negative positive positive system and in the time we have that's about all I can say. She also asks, free shaping, free versus assisted or shaping versus learning. All of them have their place and you should be using all of them. Yep. She also says, building drive. I would say that's a whole episode in that but the truth in my opinion on this is you can't build drive. You can make a dog express it more but he has the amount that he has. You can bring out the expression but you can't put any more. You can't put in what nature didn't. If you haven't listened to Bart's episode, I would recommend that you're going through that and have a listen to Bart talking about his development with Michael, how him and Michael have refined old Neapopo into new Neapopo. And I'm, yeah, I'm almost certain that he discusses that length a bit of detail about that. So it's definitely worth having a listen to. It's still our most popular episode on our Don't Lides list. Kevin Nugin, dealing with dog leash or activity when you don't have access to a sound dog to help and/or when on leash walk, you hardly see another dog. That's a good question. And I think that'll be the last one. Maybe we'll find some time to do another episode before we go to the States 'cause there's still a lot of questions that are worth answering here. We've got time. Next Tuesday we can do another one. - No, I leave on Tuesday. - I do. - But I'll bring my dogs out here on Monday. I don't know what you're doing on Monday. - Monday will be around. - Yeah. - All right. Well, there you go, listeners. We've just talked about that. - Yeah, we've just had a live debate on air and when we can do our next podcast, just for your life. - Well, because there's a lot of questions here that I would like to answer. - Yep. - And with Kevin, I think the boxes go on for that. So you need to work indirectly. So building like leash or activity is usually a fear based thing. The dog is reactive on leash because-- - Or predatory based, it can be. - Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But usually, in my experience with people's pet dogs, is that leash or activity is because-- - Indibility to flee? - Yes, exactly. So the dog has fight or flight. He knows like I can't flight because you're here holding me, you're forcing me into this situation. So I can only fight. As the best way to treat that is to make a stronger dog that is not scared of things. You can't, if you have limited access to dogs, it would be a long time. Well, first of all, let me go back another step. Listen to Jay Jack's stuff on the layered stress model and because there could be lots of things at hand that the dog is not the issue. That's the trigger, not necessarily the issue. - Very good episode. - So listen to that. But then also, in general, just make a tougher dog. If you get really, really limited access to safe dogs that you can do this stuff around, then obedience. That's the key. If you can never get the dog over its problem, if you can lock it in obedience and obedience so tight that it doesn't acknowledge the problem, then the problem is solved. And I think the goal standard on that is like two minutes. If you can get your dog to sit and hold eye contact with you for two minutes, you can get through some pretty hectic situations. And so if you can teach that using any number of distractions that you have, then you see a dog at distance, you lock eye contact with the dog or you engage the dog in some sort of very strict obedience and you get through that situation. Now, I'm not saying that's the best technique, but if you don't have access to the trigger, then that's probably the best management plan. - My other advice on top of that is go and work with somebody who is at working on those sort of problems. - Yeah. - There were some very good people, but that would feed into like, he's saying when you don't have access to any of that. - Make access to it. You have to. You know, like there's situations you have to set up. - Yeah. - And I mean, those sort of things to fix them properly, you need a safe environment to work with. Like just randomly strolling the streets looking for a dog. That could end in disaster litigation. So my best advice on those type of things is go find like a safe scenario where you can set it up and you can work on it. It might mean that you have to need to bring a trainer to your place with their dog that you can set up scenarios. Like you can pre-plan it and set it up. I've certainly done lots of this before where I've taken a dog like Val, like a passive dog, my old dog, Biff when he was still alive. Biff was, he was like a great big hulking rockwiler. Biff was the least problematic dog with other dogs. He could not give a shit what was happening. I'd just bring him into an area. Dogs would seem they lose their mind and Biff would just mosey along. Even if they became flying over and threatening him, he'd just stand there and look at him. But we'd set it up properly and we pre-plan the environment. And I'd say, this is what I'm gonna do. Now this is what you're gonna do. And if this happens, you're gonna do this. If this happens, you're gonna do this. So we would talk about the scenario first. Not just go in and wing it and say, well, let's hope for the best. We'd come up with a three-stage approach to the problem and then start to work through solutions on top of that. If it was too much intensity, we'd reduce the intensity straight away. We'd have hand signals the whole lot. It'd need to be done. I think if you're gonna take on cases like that, I personally feel you do need a dog that you can do those kinds of things with. If you don't have, and I've been in that position where Val, when she had her tail removed, and I couldn't take her work, well, I couldn't take her to work. I had calls for people with that kind of issue and I said, hey, I can't see you now because I don't have my dog that can help me with this situation. - It's a dog. - Give it a month, she'll be recovered and she can come back to work, but I can't help you at the moment. And the reason I have such good obedience on her functional obedience, and this is the way I do these kinds of things, is if I'm working with a dog like that and I'm handling the dog, and people like I've got clients of Sam and Do these people at Sam and I was Sam and Do this, I use my marker boards. I have a marker board outside of my car and she's in my car in her crate, the crate open, and I can be working with the other dog, working proximity and triggers and that kind of thing, and I can call her out of the car, send her to the marker board, she will hold the down on the board. So I can get her moving around, I can get her to stay still. And God bless her, that little dog will let a dog go. She will hold it down while another dog is going ballistic trying to kill her. So long as I'm handling the dog. She won't pull that, like if someone else has got the dog in the lead, she doesn't just put it up with that bullshit, she's out of there, but as long as I'm handling the dog, she trusts me that this is like I understand what's going on. going on here. And I always feel so bad having done it to her, but she accepts it and I always give her something like special treat afterwards. But that's why I've maintained such a high level of obedience on that dog and distance control is because when you are working a aggressive dog like that, that is all based on dogs and you are working proximity triggers. You need a dog that you know for sure you can control. And especially if you're handling the dog, you need to be able to handle the problem dog on leash and the other dog remotely. And there's precious dogs, precious few dogs that are capable of doing that, let alone train to the standard to do it. So be careful getting involved in that if you don't have that kind of dog refer on to someone else. Yeah. The last thing you want to do is reinforce the behavioural make it stronger by having that wrong dog. And it's not fair to create that situation to put dogs in a dangerous position like that. Well, I mean, that could be, it could be fatal and it could be a case of litigation. So you need to be smart about those sort of situations, work with, work with professionals who understand what they're doing. Yeah. So it goes against what I said earlier where I don't like to handle people's dogs, but I'm not willing to put my dog in danger in that situation. If I'm working a dangerous dog around my dog, I am holding the dog. We use on my equipment. So I know none of it's going to fail and it like I control it also that it can't go wrong. The only thing that could go wrong is that bow comes into close and I control that as well with training. But there's always risk. Yeah. All right. I reckon we're out of time. But there's a heap more questions that we should go through. Hey, I really want to say to everybody, I'm so impressed and thankful. I mean, there's a lot of gratitude from Pat and I about people who are getting back to these questions. When we look at the forums, people are starting to interact. They're asking questions there. It means that people listening to the show go, well, I've supported a lot of love out there. And it's very much appreciated from us as it always is for a show that we didn't know where this was going. We've now got fans all over the world. 55 countries now, nearly 50,000 downloads from iTunes and so forth on our report. So getting a great response in America, Canada is starting to come up there and Britain starting to come up there and so forth. But Australia is heads and tails in the lead. Then we've got America chasing right behind. Really appreciate it guys. That's awesome. Well, all right. That's it for another episode of the Canon paradigm. As always, if you like what you're hearing, like rate, share, subscribe through whatever subscription service you download us from. If you want to help support the show, jump out our Facebook, send us a message and buy a t-shirt from us. We're selling the t-shirts for 50 bucks and caps for $30, $10 bucks for postage. And obviously that's an expensive shirt, but that's to help support the show where we're looking to sort of recover some of our running costs from that. And if you get a bad client, just tell them to get fucked. Yeah. Basically. If you want to get in contact with us, just shoot us a message. That's it. We should have that on our next shirt, actually. Just tell them to get fucked. Yeah, just get fucked, patch to it. Music.