Episode 4 - Being non-binary in the UK

Pipsy podcastin on "Aats outside the UK". Tästä maasta tulee saunavihta. Sekä kotimaista basilika. Haluat pasitten tuoretta yrittiä salattiin tai pizza-päälle. Kotiimaista tuote perheistä löydet maistuvaa jokaisen ruokä hetkeen. Kotiimaista, tästä maasta ja äsryhmän ruokakaupoista. ЭП إsedellyttäishesan som nadava ja näin on tempo enysłä, mutta se, että kaikille on ollut pronouncedore, se. Äpe dangerous. Norckijel�i. Joten�en Sifit. McCallisessa? Sifit. Me mająいうko il minimalinen. Käsi. unpleasantitatut. Saatiin retten. Kayppinen ja sakot valuable. Siptein sekin lä Danke upgradedakapia,. ehrинойgelme sobota. Ja, onko on kärhipä, märä, ja huolio. Onko on, että se on kärhipä, ja onko on, että se on kärhipä, mitä on kärhipä, ja onko on. Ja onko on, sillä on kärhipä. Onko on, että se on kärhipä, että se on kärhipä, että se on kärhipä, mutta se on kärhipä, mutta se on kärhipä. Onko on, että se on kärhipä, mitä se on kärhipä? Ja, onko on kärhipä, ja se on kärhipä, että se on kärhipä, että se on kärhipä, mutta se on kärhipä, mutta se on kärhipä, mutta se on kärhipä, että se on kärhipä, että se on kärhipä, ajat integremis делать, jottu todella ha negoita. L assertaa vir classanasioita. Parvat portfolioikuudilla - olenodeota osnavaa jvik soosua ja paini aske manifestationsivalta胗ja. On se toisen! Beose koi ruutoon, menen set ND przypadku. In myöksentelyt, biologi on koko, että se ei ole koko ajan. Se ei ole koko ajan, joten se ei ole koko ajan. Ja se ei ole koko ajan, että joten on joten tämän ajattelua. Jos on tämän ajattelua, joten on tämän ajattelua. Onko on tämän ajattelua? Ja se ei ole koko ajan, että se ei ole koko ajan. Ja se ei ole koko ajan. Mä enää koko ajan. Se ei ole koko ajan, että biologi on koko ajan. Se ei ole koko ajan, että se ei ole koko ajan. Mutta se on tämän ajattelua, joten se ei ole koko ajan. Se on tämän ajattelua, että se ei ole koko ajan, että se ei ole koko ajan. Ja se ei ole koko ajan, että se ei ole koko ajan, että se ei ole koko ajan. - So what I want to understand from you is help me understand how - - if I look at a human being and they've got a penis - - there a man. I know they don't have ovaries. I know - - they will not grow breasts. So how's that not a man? - Well it is not a man because. that's not what being male means. I mean, there are lots of different ways - of being lots of different things. And some men do have penises - - some men don't. And it's not about that. I mean, to define gender - - as do you have the capability of getting pregnant or - - as some people do, do you sit down and stand up to pee? It's just ridiculous. It's so much more complicated than that. The way it works is how individuals relate to it. I know that can be a concept that's hard for people who - - haven't ever questioned their gender to understand. People can often think - - well, how can somebody relate to a gender that isn't - - what they were assigned at birth? And I can understand that. You know, I don't know what it's like - to be cisgender, just as a cisgender person doesn't know what it's like to be non-binary. And it's about having that conversation and that understanding - - that there are differences in the world. And you just have to respect that. And it's not hurting anyone to accept that some men don't have penises - - and there are also non-binary people. It causes no harm. - But if we are diluting the definition of what it means to be male - - or what it means to be female, then does that not, by its very point, - - mean that there's total confusion, that there's no worth in the word male or female? What is a male? If a male is not someone who has the genitalia - - and the physical characteristics of what society understands is male - - then what is male anymore? Is it anything that somebody wants it to be? Well, I mean, yeah, pretty much, it's how you feel inside - - and it's how you express that to the world when you're ready to come out - - if you are a trans guy. And it's not diluting anything. It's simply meaning that - - you're just not the stereotypical. I mean, more and more people - - in today's day and age are coming out as trans and unbinary - - because we're getting the visibility and the confidence and the safeguarding measures to do so. But the vast majority of the population are still going to be - - and always have been and always will be cisgender. And it's not diluting anything - - to just accept that trans and unbinary people are a part of society. And as a gender, we tell you, you are. And in every, for example, - - I mean, one thing that's get thrown at us a lot is, you know, - - by having these definitions and saying rightly that, you know, - - what gender you identify with is your gender, what about safeguarding issues? - - and every single country that has self-ideaf agenda has not seen an - - uptick at all in crimes that could be related to that. And - - I understand that you're not really asking the question from that point of view - - but it's a common train of thought that if gender is immutable - - and gender has biological differences, then what about this that and the other? - - And gender isn't immutable. I mean, gender's change. And there are multiple - - genders out there. And biological sex really doesn't come into it. You'll have cisgender people - - who are far more feminine, right? cisgender men, for example, - - who are far more feminine than certain cisgender women. And you also have trans men - - and trans women and unbinary people who explore their feminine - - and you're asking any different? - - I'm really interested if you're comfortable in talking about you - - because you've got the lived experience so you make it real. So at what age - - did you start, you know, so you're definitely born into - - societal norms. You're born into where the societal norm is male and female. - - So at what age did you start challenging that in your own head? - - Well, I mean, when I started challenging it in my own head and when I started - - challenging it without realizing it are quite different. And that's often the case. So of course, you know, young girls and young boys can present how they want. But I was messing around with gender expectations and gender dress up from - - his youngest five or six. I remember and as my parents have told me, but it - - wasn't until I was 12, I started really questioning the fundamentals of my identity - - and having not really heard about non-binary people at the time. And knowing I wasn't - - transgender in the sense of female to male to female, I was really just questioning my sexuality - - and squaring my more incongruence with gender moments to do with that. And then - - So it was what that meant? - I don't know, it was big words to me. - Yeah, so I was sort of questioning whether the reason I traditionally did things - - that weren't associated with the gender I was assigned at birth was more to do with - - a sexuality thing rather than a gender thing because I knew fundamentally - - I wasn't transgender, I wasn't born female and I was assigned female at birth - - and I'm actually male and I wasn't assigned male at birth and I'm actually female. I knew I wasn't - - that sense of trans, but I still knew I was queer in some way and I didn't really understand that as a gender thing. I thought of it as a sexuality thing. - What was it, not a sexuality thing? - Yeah, so I was thinking that, you know, if I'm doing these things that are so - - not in keeping with traditional gender norms, maybe that's because I've got a queer sexuality - - because I do, I'm attracted to people of all genders and I just thought it was that. And then when I was 16, 17 talking and doing research and then about - - the wider trans community and then I started hearing about non-binary people. I was like, "Oh, this is, I didn't know about this, this is kind of cool." - came to uni, he was talking about my experiences and people I know who are non-binary said, "Oh, maybe you should look into it more." And I was like, "Oh, my word, this community pretty much explains the dysphoria I've been feeling - - about certain aspects of my physical characteristics and the way society has gendered me." But equally, it explains the euphoria I feel when I mess around with those gender stereotypes. And it made me realise that everything I'd been feeling from as long as I can remember - - and even subconsciously doing was related to the fact that I was born non-binary. It's just nobody realised and I didn't realise until I was 18-19. -Piitos, että ei ole minun. that you are bisexual. Why is it not as simple as you're attracted to both sexes and you're bisexual? Why is it going beyond that? - Well, 'cause I'm attracted to all genders, because as I said, you can't determine somebody sex by looking at them. I don't see somebody who's attractive in a nightclub and go, "Ooh, I wonder if they have XX or XY chromosomes or maybe they're intersex, that might be kind." I don't think like that. I see somebody and if they're pretty cool, I'll be like, "Ah, I have the potential to be attracted to this person." And that's regards to the agenda and that includes males, females, and also non-binary people. It's. - Yeah, but we are, you know, the way the brain works, we are a large part of us in terms of sexual attraction is by physical appearance, not all of it, but a large part of it. So, you know, very few of us are attracted to chromosomes, we're gonna say it, right? We can agree on that, we don't see them. But we're attracted to the physicality of another human being. So why is it not as simple as you're sometimes attracted to, you know, whatever characteristics a female has and whatever characteristics a male has? Why is it not that simple? Because when you have attraction, you're attracted to what you can see. - I mean, I can't comment on how you form attraction and it's not my place to do so. And there might be very well people that do form their attractions based on that. And I'm not gonna take that away from people, especially, you know, with a rampant problem of bisexual erasure. But for me, the reason I identify as pansexual is because whilst there is a certain element of physicality in the attraction I feel, you're right. That to me has never felt based upon somebody's gender. I can, you know, be attracted to somebody and not even know their gender because, you know, the way that they're presenting might make me go, you know, have you heard of the term queer coding? So if you haven't, it just means the way that somebody presents outwardly in a way that shows their part of the LGBT key plus community. If, you know, people do this in different ways and you'll get straight people and cisgender people who present in ways that might be mistaking for queer coding. But attritional, for example, you know, might be over the top dress in green hair. Just something that I like to do is an outward sign of hey, I'm part of the LGBTQ+ community. So I could be attracted to somebody who is queer coding, for example. And because of that, I don't really know what their gender is. I just know that I'm enjoying the conversation and that they look nice. And that's why for me, attraction isn't based upon any perceived male, female characteristics because it's just based upon who that person is. And I'm able to feel that attraction regardless of anyone's gender, which is why I use the label pansexual for myself. Why is the label non-binary important then? And how do you define it? Yeah, so it's important simply because it communicates that we're not male and we're not female. It communicates that we are different from that. And of course, as I mentioned earlier, within that community, there are lots of smaller labels, micro labels, as we call them, that can be more useful for talking to people who are quite knowledgeable about the community so we can express the nuances of our gender. But as an overall term, non-binary is important because it encapsulates the broad spectrum of people who aren't male and who aren't female. And it's useful to have that overall grouping term when we are campaigning for our legal rights and for legal protections. And that's why non-binary is so important. But equally, you'll have people who just use the term non-binary. And so it's important to them because it is their fundamental label. They don't need anything more specific than that because it fits and it works for them perfectly. So it's about communicating who we are and it's also about using that label to form this group and equally forming a group of people, finding your people can be lifesaving for non-binary individuals because we grow, as you said, we grow up in a society that does gender things strictly in the perceived two-gender model and it can be very disheartening, stressful, and depressing to grow up in a system that you don't think is ever going to recognize you or you're never going to be able to fit within. So finding a group of people who've had that shared experiences because you're able to look up non-binary people, it can be literally lifesaving for individuals when you consider the high suicide rates that unfortunately form a part of the trans and non-binary communities. Are there some days that you feel more male than female? For me, no. I mean, people who are gender fluid will have those experiences from, you know, those conversations I've had with people I know who identify as gender fluid. For me, I fundamentally never feel a gender that's male or female. That's why I use the agenda label within my non-binary identity. I'm a gender queer for me. And the reason I say that is because while I'm fundamentally never feel like I have a male or female gender and I don't have a male or female gender and I don't have a gender in that sense. I do have times where I feel like I wish to present more masculine or present more feminine or play up to masculine stereotypes or play up to feminine stereotypes. And this is just my way of doing it and it's not like there is the right way to do masculine to go the right way to do femininity. But for me, there is a certain fluidity in how I want to be presenting but never in how I want to be perceived because no matter even if I'm doing something that's, you know, to me, really highlighting or celebrating the moments where I do feel that more masculine energy. I'm not a man and an equally when I'm doing something that I'm, you know, celebrating my family in NGM, I'm not a woman, I'm just still me. So there is that certain smaller sense of fluidity but fundamentally for me, because I'm not gender fluid, my gender is always completely a gender and there's never days where I wake up more man or more woman. So what legal rights do you think you should have that you don't? One of the big ones fundamentally is just the ability to engage in legal documents with our true gender stated. Being misgendered can and does contribute towards suicide rates and depression in our community and not being able to interact with the world legally with our true non-binary gender can be quite triggering for some people but more than that, you know, it's about safeguarding. Now we've got the 2020 TANQ qualities act in the UK and it does include, you know, people who have transitioned between the sexes as a protected characteristic but the same equality act defines the sexes as male or female. So it can be argued that we're excluded from that equality as act. Now, various lawyers and people who understand the law a lot more than me have argued both for and against and tribunal to have argued both for and against the fact that non-binary people are already included in the equality act or if we're not. But the fact it's ambiguous is scary. It means that if my university that I'm doing my part, I'm masters at turned around and expelled me on the grounds of my gender, I'd have a case to fight that I might lose. And so there's legal protections there. But equally, the UK government has literally said it's too complicated to recognise non-binary people and that's just huge because it means like, how are we going to be protected or if somebody murders or attacks me, is that a hate crime or what is it? And the UK government will be like, well, you're not recognised as non-binary so it can't be. So those are those safeguarding protections there. But equally, beyond just the legal-- The party had defined it for the UK government to move on that. They would have to define what non-binary means. Yeah, wouldn't it? So how do you do that? And Parliament has decided not to, by the way. Do you respect that? I think it's a shambles that Parliament have decided that they can't be bothered to respect non-binary people enough to accept our gender as legal and allow us to place it on our legal documentation. I think that's a huge failing of Parliament. But it would be as simple as just defining non-binary people as many non-binary people have as simply we are not men and we are not women, we are non-binary. And that's all it would take. And in countries that have legal self-id. Now, I can't off the top of my head think any country that has legal self-id, for non-binary people. But the countries that have legal self-id for trans people, they navigate that legal side fine because they just-- you just tell them what gender you are and they're like, cool. You're protected. That gender is sound yeah, we've got your back. And that's what we want for non-binary people. I just want to be able to tell the government, hey, I'm non-binary. Can you please ensure that I'm not going to be abused because of that? And I want the same legal protections that people have for other protected characteristics and they could just turn around and be like, yeah, we can do that. The fact they're not is very disheartening. Well, could they though? Because for something to be protected in law, it needs to be clear what it is. I'm learning today. There's someone speak to my ear here saying, well, you'd have to be, what is it, David? Gender queer. There's gender fuck. What's gender fuck mean? Yes. Some people will use that expression and it will mean different things to different people. My understanding of it, not as a label I use, and I actually haven't personally met somebody who identifies with gender fuck. But simply that mean, it's just their way of expressing that part of their non-binary identity. I mean, again, as I said, I haven't met somebody who personally uses that. But to me, it sort of-- Yeah, but should they be protected? Well, yeah, they're all part of the non-binary community. I'm not asking the UK government to individually go down the list of how people identify because there are people coming up with new micro labels all the time. And that's good because it means when you can express the nuances of our gender. But fundamentally-- Yeah, but come on on. So you sound like an intelligent person. So therefore, you know that the vulnerability around that then is you could have a cohort of people who say, we're not non-binary. We don't identify with that. We're gender fucks. And then, like, so where does the UK government draw the line? Why should they support non-binary and not gender queer, for example? Well, again, this is all about the language games that we play as a community to express the nuances of our gender. And that is that a possibility, yeah, maybe. But I think fundamentally, people who identify with the micro labels within the non-binary community-- I know some people who don't like the unbrother term non-binary-- fundamentally, if the protection is written into law, But as we'll protect people who have gender identities outside of male and female, that covers all bases. It doesn't need to explicitly say the words non-binary in any legal documentation. It just needs to broadly cover the same definition. And that could be written into law such as we protect people by law, whose gender identity is not that of a man or a woman. And that achieves the same thing. And would protect people who solely use, to use your example, the gender fact label rather than unbinary. But it would also protect people who do use the non-binary label. And that's how it could be avoided. I don't think we're going to be in a situation where people are trying to get specific protection for individual micro labels when such a simple workaround by using a definition like that is a possibility. All I've really enjoyed the conversation today, and you said that maybe there's a wider longer discussion to have. I'd be up for doing it if you are. So, look, I'll let you speak to David here behind the scenes. And thanks so much for spending the time with us at your health. Thank you very much indeed. Thanks for having me on. And I'm looking to provide some information about our community. Coming up in the next episode, an insider from the TavaStore Clinic who says he was sidelined for his views. I think there's always a reason for it. I don't think there's any evidence that a child is born in the wrong body. It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself. It's time to put my balls on the dashboard. As he starts the engine. In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance on conscious, in 15 years, he's a billionaire. This is Total Wolf, Formula 1's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive to Survive. Click on Good Bad Billionaire, how Total Wolf made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.