Episode 39 - Trofeo Kima 2024 with Jack Kuenzle and Finlay Wild

[MUSIC] All right, this is Go Mountain Goats with Finley Wild and Jack Kenzel. [LAUGHTER] This is, yeah, so Finley's lovely podcast, Go Mountain Goats. My name is Jack Kenzel. I'm a trail runner and mountaineer from the US, or I guess, skier, not really mountaineer. And we are primarily here to discuss Finley's lovely effort at Trophy O'Kima, where he broke Killian's 2018 course record. Trophy O'Kima being a Sky Marathon 50K race in Northern Italy. Unfortunately, I also broke Killian's record, but I broke it by less than Finley. So I came in second at the race. So that was a bit of an unfortunate note. And yeah, I think just broadly just talking about our seasons up to that point and our preparation and then execution on race day and then going forward, what we're going to be doing. So Finley, where are you at? Are you at your house there in Fort William? I'm back in Fort William. I would definitely say I would have positioned a bit differently and that we're going to talk about this epic race battle where we were fitted against each other and very even rematch. And yeah, because of that, it pushed us on and we both came under Killian's time. But I mean, it's funny because you say epic battle, but I don't know how you felt about it, but I think in my mind that has a connotation of like us both killing ourselves. And I felt like I certainly pushed very hard, but I thought it was quite, I thought it was pretty fun. I mean, we were just kind of like out chatting a bit. Let's definitely go into that more deep now. But yeah, just to sort of, before we get to that, I should say this is episode 39. I actually just recorded episode 38 this morning, no way. It's hard to get the phonology right. And it's becoming a bit of a Jack Kenzel fan podcast because the pre-visessor is me talking about the Trantors, and so you obviously mentioned it. That was obviously in June this year. We're now in, well, Kima was at the end of August. So I had to get the chronology right. What, we're now about 10 days since Trafia Kima. Maybe just a good place. Yeah, to start, can you tell you a bit about, there's your spring and summer, you've been in Europe now for quite a long time. How's that looked? Yeah, yeah. So I came over in February, actually, with my girlfriend Anna Demonti, and we were looking to purchase a vehicle. I live in my truck in the US. And so we were trying to buy a vehicle in Europe, and we kind of looked all over, and EZS was buying one in the UK. So we actually went to London, bought a van in February, and then have been kind of splitting our time between mainly with Shamanie, kind of originally, and then kind of Turvini and Northern Italy, and then just recently kind of doing some trail races, kind of hanging around the Koma area. But yeah, I mean, first four months of the year, we're first four months here. We're pretty much exclusively focused on trying to do the round trip record from Shamanie to the summit of Mount Blanc and back on steers, which I've had a bunch of really close ones this year. And that one was, I was two minutes off of Killian's 2013 record. He was running, I was skiing, so a bit of a difference there. But yeah, two minutes slower than him. So he went about, I think, 457 round trip from Shamanie to the summit of Mount Blanc and back, and I did 459. And so then after that, it was, that project burnt me out like none other, and I was like, you know, hurt and after that. And you beat the Mateo Jacomod's ski record, didn't you, in the process? Yeah, yeah. So Mateo was the fastest skier up to this point. So Mateo did it in five hours and five minutes. Mateo actually was with Killian when he did his running out, but on the descent, I'm not really sure what happened, like the story that's kind of like presented is like Mateo Phelma Krabas. And you know, they kind of just like followed him out real quick and then he was like Killian, just go by yourself. It looked like Mateo, it looked like Killian was a good deal faster on the descent. So I think Mateo just made, I want to just let him go. Maybe he felt like he was holding that Killian a little bit, but yeah. So you beat Mateo's time, short of Killians. And then yeah, after that, I raised, well, before that, sorry, sorry, Tindra, where's a good place? Because I know you've done some podcast interviews. Where can people hear more about the mom block record? Yeah. Yeah. So I just, I did one of them on it. It's a US podcast from the backcountry, which my friend just runs. So I basically just tried to like download the experience onto there. But I mean, I just, just to recap, I mean, I think it's like one of the greatest speed records in the world, like not my time or Killians, but just like, you know, from the top of Shemini, the mountain, some of them all from Shemini, the some of them all block and back. It's just, it's like so classic and historic. But it's just, it's like such a fucking headache getting the right conditions. And I think like the running versus skiing thing, I think running is, you have, you know, more days that are good for running and maybe you're good enough to set the record. But skiing, if you catch that perfect day, which was May 19th of this year, which I did not do it on May 19th, but if you catch that perfect day, then I think the potential is like much faster for the ski record. I actually, I think I had fairly shit additions. I mean, it wasn't in the broad steam of things. They were quite good, but compared to what they could be, it was, they were pretty bad. So yeah, I mean, I just, it's a tricky one because you know, I could do go a couple more years and maybe there's going to be years where there's not even enough snow and, you know, you just never know until like the day of. So it's just, it's a really tough one. But yeah, I'm going to continue to try to get that in the future. Cool. Yeah. And then, yeah, I raced, uh, Jurydaman and Italian 32 kilometer race, uh, with like 2700 feet of climbing, or 2700 meters of climbing, uh, back at the end of July. And yeah, I came in fifth there and was like four minutes back off the lead. Uh, so I mean, it was, it was like, it was like an okay result. I felt like you really cooked in the heat, but I was trying to do, to get thinly to do Jurydaman because I think it'd be a great race, uh, for him to do. But, uh, but San, just saying, yeah, really hot and fast. And how technical is it? It's, um, who it's like it. God, what is it kind of like? It's, it's, it is fairly technical. I would say it's more steep than anything else. Uh, but it's like, you know, it's a bit of like kind of like stony, steep, stony pads and like a bit of like steep kind of stairs and grass and stuff. Uh, I would say not, not terribly technical in the broads chemo things, not inferior to chemo, but, uh, I would say compared to your median kind of trail race out there. Yeah, it's fairly technical. Yeah. And this part of Italy, um, so we're just east of Lake Como, basically, there's Kima, there's, uh, Jurydaman, there's, uh, Grinia Skyrarrata and Movello has a race, um, there's Nasega was just, uh, just on recently, there's absolutely tons of races in this relatively small area. All, all in slightly different valleys, but all very close. Have you, have you done Nasega? No, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it seems great. I mean, I don't know, I don't know that many Italian runners, but like at least like French Tesco Pupi says, uh, Chasery, Mystery, um, God, who else? Uh, day, I think Roberto De Lorenzies from Switzerland, but just across the border, they're all kind of from this area. Um, so I mean, trail running seems very, yeah, very, I think it's because of like the hurting culture. That seems like. Okay. Uh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, and then, and then Kima and what about you, Finley? Did you do the cool and round this year? Was that this year? Yeah. So that, yeah, exactly. And that was, um, when I got back from doing some skiing, we actually skied together way back in, um, maybe April or early May, and on the ground party. So we had a day out. Um, that was, that was the, that was the, I've skied in worse condition and so that, but that was the, that was the only day I think I've ever gone skiing where there wasn't a single good turn. It was just, it was just 3000 meters of just whatever, whatever, how much we did. It was like 3000 meters of a horrible skiing. There was no good ski. - It was from Mads' Strugey and yeah, it was kinda awkward conditions and yeah, not particularly nice turns, right? - I've been talking thinly to like everybody I know because I have never seen, like maybe it's just like a fact I've like not to ski with many people who are like too much to ski and all racing, but I've never seen someone ski on light skis the way family goes. I think you were on a trap, might shrill or something, but it was impressive. Like thinly was skiing it, like it was, you know, a groomer pieced and I was like bucking all over the place, just trying to ski downhill, but yeah, it was pretty impressive. - It was fun. Yeah, I get, well, yeah, I guess, yeah, I'll just let you big me up, but yeah, I went to Scotland where we have, we usually have pretty shit snow. We're pretty challenging snow. - Pretty challenging snow. - I think I stopped, oh you for the refugial. - Oh yeah. So yeah, then I, so I got back from ski stuff and then I really wanted to, yeah, I do the cooling round. So this long extension of the main ridge a round, sort of the main cooling ridge, but then also the red cooling and loads of other summits. So that was on the first of May and then I was, had my, probably my best run ever, just pushed me into places I haven't been to, in order to be able to get that record back off you, I had to go to kind of a new level, new place. And then there were things like, like Wasdale Fell Race, which I was thinking actually, So Wasdale, this Lake District classic long race that has this 1982 Billy Blande record, Billy Blande of course, who Jack met in the process of coming over to the UK and getting the, the Bond Graham round record, which Billy had that for 30s, seven years or something like that. Yes, so Billy still has the record for Wasdale, which is phenomenally fast. No one's been within five minutes of it. And I had a pretty good run. I did like a nine minute PB. So the record's three hours, 25, but I was still, I was 337, so I'm still like 11, 12 minutes and slower. There's, Vinley, I think there's no fucking way, you're slower than if you had lined up with him in 83. I have to think you have to have won, but like, what is there anything like the squeeze, the squeeze have gotten worse, right? Is that the course with like, I think it's borrowed ill where the squeeze have gotten worse maybe? Well, it's really interesting that area because so definitely these guys back in the 80s, there was far less, as I understand, it sort of international racing. And so there was so much on these English, like English champs and UK races. So they would have just been all the top guys who have been racing races like Wasdale, like year after year for like 20 years. So in that time, you're gonna get, you're gonna peak, you're kind of perfect. Performance with really good grand conditions and like, I'm good weather. Because yeah, there is some boggy bits like this year, it was a little bit boggy here then last year, which obviously is still dying. And I don't have the optimum lines here yet, there yeah. I've got, all right. - Really? - But there's definitely some skating to be done. I need to sort of take your approach and go and just run it for like weeks. (laughs) - Yeah, yeah. - But yeah. - Yeah, I mean, I figure, I just, you, I figure if you go and take like Mad Atkinson's lines, you know, and just copy this. It's probably good enough. - Yeah, I think it'd be fun to, yeah, to try and tweak that one a little bit more. For sure. - Yeah, how close have you gotten at that? Have you done a borrowed ill? - No, no, not yet. So after a was ill, I went to the Alps and did some mountaineering, which, so I won Kima in 2022, and kind of a surprise victory really. You know, obviously was going out to do what I could do, but it wasn't particularly confident of winning. There was some big names and the deal in McGway and Steen, Angle-Mond, among others, were on the start list. But so before that, I mentioned it because before that, I'd like done some mountaineering and was like really well acclimatized. I'd been up at 4,500 and things. So I sort of thought that would be quite a good idea for this year too. So I had been doing some mountaineering, including a lifetime engineering tech of the Putrii and Tagrall with CalNusket in a push, which was super cool, but not a lot of running on that. - Was it more technical than when we skied and we went out to that summit, we run a little snowy bit? - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Okay, a little more technical. - Yeah. - Well, yeah, the Nua, the tower is like 5C, 47 pictures of rock climbing. And then there's 13 ab cells or something and then there's tons of tross and then there's, like it's so long. Most people were doing two or three days, but we just decided to commit and go for it. So it was just under 23 hours from the valley to the summit in Mont Blanc. But yeah, after the tross, finally got onto some snow. There's the more tross, some more ab cells, some glacier, and it got dark, then we're questing on up and then finally, finally, you're on a snow crest and up to the top of Mont Blanc to come here and then Mont Blanc, which isn't very far, but when you're that tired, it kind of seemed like it went on forever and then you're gonna get down. So yeah, we sort of fell asleep on this bench, 26 hours in outside the Canela refuge and had like half an hour of, with Kip. And then actually it started getting light and woke up and we felt a lot better to continue going. - That's crazy. - Who has the speed record on that? Is that between us? - I think it's another guy actually. I can't, I don't have the name on top of my head. It's like seven hours or something insane and we took like, I think we took six hours just for the first bit, just for the rock climbing bit. But yeah, it's, there's a lot of route finding, which obviously if we've done it, now there's loads of bits where we could make time, but it's, you know, it's like 4,000 something meters of a cent, like it's absolutely, it's a monster. - So, so I guess, right, it is between us. - Is it X51? - All right, I thought, okay, okay. Maybe I'm remembering the previous one actually, yeah. Anyway, yeah, that's absolutely like mind-blowing. Like these, these like real mountaineering records, are just, are just, really hard to comprehend. They're so fast. And obviously these guys are crazy strong maintainers, a lot of them are guides, and they're just doing that stuff all the time, but like, it's so impressive. And like what Killian's just done, while we were racing Kima, he's on his, Alpine 4,000, there's in 19 days, like it's just, it's just absolutely nuts. - So, what's funny about that is, is Killian actually, I was messaging him a bit about Mount Blanc, and then afterwards he said, oh, I'm doing this project, and he's like, you could, you know, join if you wanted. And I'm thinking, okay, that's like right around Kima, like I don't know if I wanna do that and everything, even though it would be really cool. And I'm also thinking, I'm like, Killian is so skilled, I would hate for the project, become like, you know, a rescue of me off of like, you know, some like very easy scrambled, that like, you know, Killian didn't bring a rope for. And to that end, like I was talking to him, and he was like, yeah, some vits are quite technical, and then he was like, and some vits are like, you know, just hiking, he said, like this spaghetti tour, just hiking. And I was like, okay, maybe this spaghetti tour is that easy. And then I talk to you, and he in, and it's like, no, this spaghetti tour is not hiking, by most people's definition. So I was like, fuck that, I am not going with him. - Yeah, like the, yeah, the terrain these guys, moving over a solo, you know, there's technical stuff and obviously like on Killian's 4000, there's, you know, like he had his friends meeting for some of those vits, like towards the end, the Diablo rage on to mount more, more to tackle. But he's on his own for so much of it on like, like highly, highly consequential like technical terrain. Glacier to say yes, it's so impressive. Yeah. Um, yeah, crazy. So I guess I mentioned all that to kind of just like say, yeah, then I sort of felt then I had to go home for a bit. Um, uh, after, after all that, but I felt like I had the climatization, then I did a ton of running over like three weeks. And then came out to Valmasino for Kima like a week, uh, or a bit over a week early with a partner Rosie and we went and did the course in like three day, uh, three nights, staying in these amazing hearts and just really, um, you know, exploring and getting to take in the beauty of of that area, uh, slower pace. And that worked really well and topped up the climatization a bit. Yeah. And what was your preparation for for Kima, particularly like how does that look? Uh, yeah. So I mean, the prep for a Jirdom on, I mean, I think Jirdom went fairly decent into Kima where, uh, Jirdom on, you know, I came off of mom block and I had about, you know, eight weeks there to like work running. And so I've gone out and I've scouted Jirdom on and been doing a lot of, you know, just kind of like steep, but generally fairly non technical trail running. So I did a scout on the Jirdom on course. And then I did like a three week altitude block and steep running block in Gresanay, um, at about 2000 meters, uh, race Jirdom on, spend like a week down a coma and then, uh, basically went up to Valmasino and spent the next three weeks. Um, there with, with my girlfriend and I and, uh, we initially were just kind of sleeping down in the van. And we're planning on doing a short scout and then, uh, leaving for, uh, Travenia or for Gresanay, you know, to get back up to altitude. And then we found that we could just drive the van and up to Predaroza, which is at 2000 meters and is on the course and just sleep there. And, uh, I mean, that worked quite well. So we ended up staying there for, you know, more than three weeks or so and just, you know, kind of like running out of there. And fortunately, we have Starlink, uh, primarily for Anna's work. And so there's no cell phone reception up there. So we had had the Starlink and could just kind of, uh, just kind of look out of there. Something one, one huge issue I had, Finley and I have been chatting about it. One huge issue I had at Jardimont was the heat. And like the thing is, it's like, I mean, I don't want to man's playing. I think the like the a lot when you are exercising and when you're like moving your body forward, you know, the most of the energy that your body is producing like 70% is just going into like, it's just lost as heat. It's just, you know, your body is quite inefficient. And so the heavier you are the more heat production there is just as a byproduct of just moving and like, you know, the surface area doesn't scale terribly well as far as like dissipating that heat. So, you know, as somebody who is like a bit heavier than most trail runners like I knew he was going to be a problem going into Jardimont. I tried to train for it. I didn't train it enough. And then so it was like another kind of focus going into Kima and like the tricky bit is if you're staying up and altitude. It's so cool. Then when you don't get the heat and so, you know, well, it's quite hot down low. So prior to Jardimont, I had just been I was kind of adding like, you know, rain jacket, rain pants and maybe a pair of tights and just kind of like doing some of my base work with that on. But I found the problem was it would be really hot for the first like 10 minutes. And then I completely swept through everything. And I would just get cooling, you know, off the outside of the garment. So for Kima, I tried to be a little bit more deliberate and just like he is taking on quite quickly. So like the last like 10 days before Kima like every day for like 30 minutes. I would go and I bought a paint suit, which I think like it was like an old school, like I was like he training, but like I think the painters suits have gotten so good and so breathable, but they're not very hot anymore. So I would still put the painter suit on. And I wear that as my base layer to try to like, wick off some sweat and then I put another rain shell on top of that to try to wake the sweat off a little bit more. And then I would add like a puffy jacket on top or maybe a pair of tights on the bottom and like, it was so hot that I would basically be a little bit more than walking, you know, I'd be maybe going uphill on a fairly steep grade, you know, 700 meters, 800 meters per hour. And you know, I would just get 30 minutes, you know, every day. I mean, I think it worked recently, but we got a lot we got lucky with a cool day at Kima, I think for both of us. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I've never done particularly well in the heat, but I've never linked it to being like a bit, a bit bigger. I mean, these are us are big, but I'm probably certainly compared to a lot of the fast European guys and bit taller and long levers longer legs. So maybe that maybe you've explained the science of that and why that might affect me plus being from Scotland, but it's been freezing. And what and what what's your just while we're on that and like electrolyte replacement and sodium and things, how much did you go into that because I was reading a little bit on precision, fuels on their website, do you sort of go into that quite a lot like if you don't sweat tests and things. Yeah, yeah, so like it's funny because like, I mean, I think it's becoming, it's increasingly invoked for sure in Europe too, but like in the US, I think people were pretty obsessed with this because like a lot of the races are so damn hot. Like Western states and stuff. So, yeah, I mean, I've never found the coach, you know, for work and I do, I do learn quite a bit from my athletes and I just had an athlete that was like really suffering in the heat with cramping. And so I worked with him for a while on it. And then, you know, kind of like it was like shit, you know, I need to start focusing on this. So, I mean, yeah, so I, I'm on precision. So precision fuel and hydration, you know, they make gels and like hydration products and on their website, they have a little like tool to estimate your, you know, electrolyte losses per hour. So the thing is with sweating and electrolytes is everybody varies in like two metrics. So everyone varies in like the amount they sweat per hour. So obviously, you know, that's just how much fluid you're expelling. So that would be like that varies, you know, how heat trained you are, you know, maybe how big you are. You know, variety, you know, genetics, like tons of things, you know, kind of affects that. And then the second thing is the concentration of electrolytes in that sweat. And that's, I think more genetic and that can vary as much as like 10 X in between people. So like, I think it's typically given in sodium per liter. So, you know, some people, you know, could be as low as I think 250 milligrams per liter is kind of lowest. And then like 2,200 or 300 is kind of milligrams of sodium per liter is kind of like the upper, the upper end. And so, yeah, I've never been tested and when you get tested, you know, they test both of those kind of metrics. So certainly something I'm going to do in the US in the fall, but like based on persicians, little estimator tool. I was doing about a thousand milligrams of sodium per hour. And at zero to month, I mean, I was so stupid about it. I mean, I had salt pills that I was going to give my crew and each one of those salt pills has 250 milligrams of sodium. And I just completely forgot it to hand it to my crew. Like it was in my pocket of my jacket and I just never gave it to him. And I don't experience any cramping. So like, the connection between cramping and electrolyte is honestly a little bit fuzzy. And like, even some people like believe you don't even need electrolytes or training. Like it's one of those things that's really nebulous. But I think it, I think it does help. And so yeah, during during the race, I was like just taking these like precision hydration little tablets that are each 750 milligrams of sodium. And like every 45 minutes, that we just kind of like pop one of my bottles and drink it. We you were also using tablets, right? Yeah. Yeah, I started with some tailwinds, which is like so I and energy isn't it. And I'm on calories. And then I had SIS tablets, which I'm particularly hot and concentrated. So maybe I maybe I'll try. Yeah, some of the more concentrated ones for hot races in the future. And I also did some heat training. I did some soreners and some running with loads of layers on. But similar problems you, particularly when it was sort of not great weather in Scotland, I'd start with loads of layers and then I get sweaty. Then it would start raining, you know, and actually end up getting cold. And I think the sauna like the sauna, I think you need to do, you know, you need to be doing like, I mean, I'm sure it varies, but like three or four sessions a week or more like five plus maybe in the sauna for a year for a month for it to help, but I didn't do that, but I did a bit which made maybe help a little with funny because when I was in when I was at Fedorosa and on the chemo course and I was kind of like, you know, I mean, I like it being cold. They're for sure. We're sleeping and stuff. So I wasn't really complaining, but when I was kind of lamenting at being cold, I went one day and I and I looked at the weather in Fort Worth, William. It was so bad. It was like a week of like rain and like, you know, five or 10 degrees Celsius, just like the daily high or whatever it is. It just looks so gnarly. - Yeah, you're gonna have to time it well to get the weather to get that trend to get that trend to reckon. - Yeah. If I haven't in me, but yeah. I wanted to mention, yeah, I think it's really interesting how you've taken, I mean, you're a really analytical details guy and you haven't seen my article where I caricature you. So hopefully it won't be too surprised by it. But anyway, anyway, so like the way you approach FKTs, you hadn't raced, I don't think, until as you'd have won, you hadn't raced since 2019, was it? - Yeah, yeah. - Or raced an official race, you've obviously raced those at FKTs. So you're FKT approach of basically, of doing a lot of work on the course, doing your homework, being there, really getting to know it. And then bringing that to an organized race is really interesting because I think a lot of like, top guys and gals potentially will go and do a sky race or something marked race, potentially having never really been on the course at all. - Yeah, especially for Kima, I mean, I think that's just fucking crazy because like there's so much free time, to make up, just having done the chains before and kind of like knowing both like just tactics for doing the chains in general. But you know, I think there is some kind of like, specific data that you pick up from doing it a bit. But yeah, yeah, no, I think it's funny because I did, I kind of ran Kima like an FKT and that was like, to my detriment a bit because like, you know, I mean, we can talk about it, but like you and I were like, you and I were just running together and I was, I mean, I think I probably led most of this action, we were running together. Like I think you easily could have gone faster, but I was like, I'm just gonna push the pace and just like run my pace and like there was no tactics and I just like, it's just, you know, there was a lot of bit where I was just like route finding and you know, you could just run behind me and then I was like, I was like, I need to try to drop Finley and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna run like 2% faster and obviously you're just right behind me, you know, and then I would get up to the pass and I was like, fuck, but anyways, I mean, just like, yes, I ran Kima like an FKT and there was no strategy and it was like, no, I didn't. - Okay. - No, not. 'Cause it was my take on, yeah, that, I was thinking about this, it was like, I, we were running like dead close and I just, I knew I didn't have a huge amount to go faster than you on those flat bits. Like I just was like, no, I can't really make, I mean, we both made various pushes, but I just, I was like, I can't really make a push on the flat 'cause we're already going kind of full pelt. And yeah, I mean, we switched lead a bit, but yeah, you were certainly in the lead more than me. I kept getting, I kept getting, - Did you say it? - I was gonna say I kept getting paranoid when I was in the lead that I was holding you up. - No, yeah, you kept saying you're like, you're like, I can go first, I can, I can route find, I can go first if you want and I was like, no, no, no, I got it, I got it. - But I was saying you want to go past, but then when I got in the front, I was like, do you want to go past? 'Cause I felt like you were wanting to go past. But yeah, I think we're like two, we're like, I think I like you too much and I was like, there was one bit, we're like thinly took kind of a bad line and I kind of, I was behind him and I was like, no, no, no, I was like, go lower and go lower. And I was like, no, this is not good. - It was sad, it was sad. - Well, yeah, I mean, this is, yeah, we'll, let's talk about this a bit now, 'cause we're here. But yeah, I mean, let's go for it. I mean, that was the really interesting thing is that, so basically, we were, we need to talk about the first bit so we can get to the interesting bit. So basically, - You're lemme, what are you in it? - No, you do it, you go for it. - Okay, okay, I was just gonna say, so Kima for people who don't know, was like, what's funny and what I didn't expect is like, if you look at the sky running World Series Instagram page, it's like nothing but like chains and talus and slab and steep run thing. But like, you know, the first 10K of Kima probably and you know, I don't even know, thousand meters of gain or 1200 meters of gain and 10K, well, actually a little bit less, but is on the road. And so during this road section, there was off the front, there was a Japanese athlete, Roy Yuda, I think his hey, Bratz's name, who just like took off and he was, he was so far ahead, it was just, it was unbelievable. And then I think everybody was kind of queuing off of Finley and like, I feel like it was hilarious because you didn't see this, but like, I've never done a cycling race. I just like watch footage of like the Tourant Stuff. But Finley was running and he knew Joke had like a peloton behind him. And it was like everybody was going off of Finley's pacing and he literally had like a failing behind him. And then when we got into like the road started winding a bit, everybody came into like a single file and was just like running behind the line up the road. So that was, I found that quite funny. - I did, yeah, I did notice that happening. The guy who was third, Christian Menosio, wasn't it? He was sort of second to Roy Yuda, the Japanese guy at this point in the road. And yeah, it's like, I think it was like 56 minutes basically to Preda Rossor. So you're not fully on the road the whole time. There are a few short cuts higher up, but you're basically on the road for an hour to start. And yeah, I was just really keen not to push that to fast. And two years ago when I hadn't won it, you could just do what you like and just pace it well. Whereas I was definitely aware of folk watching why I was doing. So that adds a bit of an extra stress. And then the new thing this year as well was they probably makes a lot of sense because you're on a lot of technical terrain with loose rocks and a lot of people racing for a long time. They had mandatory helmets from Preda Rossor for probably like 25, 25 K maybe. You were wearing a helmet. So you put your helmet on and then, - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, was it about two nights? Yeah. Then the real race kind of starts. So, Kima is this absolutely beautiful post-Glacial sort of granite paradise of Boulder Hopping and tall, beautiful peaks. So on the south side of a Pizbedeal, which has got a famous north-face, the casting route on that north-face of the Pizbedeal, super famous. It's, yeah, it's, so the route goes, it's about 48 kilometers, not quite, but almost 4,000 meters of a cent. And you basically, after this road, you then cross these seven calls, all technical with chains. Two of them had snow patches with sort of ropes on them as well. And a good thing is after you've sort of done the road, then the second call is the high point. And then, you're still quite a lot of up and down, obviously, but that high point, almost 3,000 meters. And then you've got, you have seven calls, and then down, and equally fast sort of descent onto road and sort of fast, flatish bit to finish. So it's raised like no other, and nowhere else have I sort of raised something with so much sustained, and there's Boulder Hopping for hours, where there's not course markings, there's just markings of, so the red and white paint of this interior, the Deroma, which is this classic route that joins the refuges that Alpine Huts along the way. So, yeah, do you want to maybe say about your experience of what happened kind of after the road when we started getting onto the technical stuff? And up to the first refuge, refuge Ponte, where your dad had hiked up with jails and things for us, and thank you very much to your dad for taking some from me. - Yeah, yeah, of course. No, it's interesting because the road sections, I mean, god of the whole race, how much are they? I mean, they're probably, I don't know, 14, 15 kilometers, maybe a little bit less, but I'm having to estimate and miles, and then I can convert it in my hands, so it's probably way off, but it's interesting because, I mean, I haven't done many races, but it is interesting that it is a route that requires like a very, I wouldn't call it like a range of skills. It's like really a binary. It's like you need to, you know, kind of be fast at the end. And on the road initially at the beginning, and then you also need to be able to run technically quite well. So it is a route that kind of like, you know, it's kind of like both ends of the spectrum. I mean the road section isn't terribly long, but, you know, as we'll get to like, I believe just lost you a little bit there, but hopefully I'll come back pretty soon. So I was saying, Refugee O'Pont, but he were my dad was waiting and he had nutrition for as friendly as saying for himself and then for Anna for me and then another American trod on David Hedges. And then from there to the past, it's all, you know, fairly technical running, but I mean still you're just kind of going uphill and it doesn't really matter a ton. I would say though when we hit that first pass, there was like a definitive moment where like a switch flipped and I had gone up in every time I go out and run the course. And I probably ran the whole course like I probably saw the whole course three times I would always on the chains bits I would always just push it a little bit because I never really felt like it was all that, you know, musculatively taxing, you know, because not terribly high impact, you just kind of going between the joints and I would just try to flow down it well and just kind of work the beta a little bit and there was a segment that was like from the past to like the next like maybe 250 meters of vertical descending and I never could get close to like Finland's time on that whoever has it I can't think of it as a and so I figured it was just I figured it was a glitch with the segment, but like we hit the past and it was actually that fast. It was crazy wasn't that Roy was like he was like crossing on the chain right in front of me so I just like went up and around him and and then we start running down we hit the patch and like it's pretty firm and there's a fixed line and we just like are bombing you know bombing down that and then after that, yeah, I mean it was it was very wild it was like it was like you me Daniel and a little bit of a lowly song yes and then yeah, yeah, Louie song what is this last thing? Co, Coffé is I think there is some coffee. Okay, Coffé, I think Palm Fritz is like fried potato. Yeah, okay, yeah and and Louie song, but I mean it was that the descent of the first pass and then off the second pass I think it was actually maybe even crazier but it was it was it was wild and then it was just yeah, it was just it was the five of us. I think it was the four of us and then finally you were trailing like slightly behind after that first downhill which yeah was crazy and sort of traversi downhill you're like yes we're finally on the technical stuff and then I there's an uphill to be back okma and I was yeah I was trailing a bit there all the way to the top of the second pass I know if I'd gone too hard on that first descent or possibly it was a bit of altitude or just I wasn't as fast but I was struggling a bit there and was like hmm not sure what's going on. Oh interesting yeah yeah no because I was going up and as we're going to pass Kima I was like I was like oh good I was like maybe finished having a bad day hopefully we got rid of them back there and I want to see if I can. Yeah and speaking of that like it's so easy to have a bad day on that race because the because it's so technical and especially the speed we ended up like I was just thinking particularly towards the after as you get to so towards the last pass it'd be so easy to just do an ankle or something because you're you're like racing down this technical stuff right together and actually that did take its tall and to the top five manu Morales from Spain and Lewis and coffee like coffee yeah ended up pulling out sort of in it well Lewis almost a bit halfway and manu was sort of that second descent which was definitely seemed a bit faster this year than two years ago because there was that snow patch to the second pass so it was me manu Morales and Anatoli going up to the second pass and like right before we hit the second pass I remembered there was like a 200 euro bonus to the first person you got to the top of the second pass and like I remembered it's just like a second to lay and I don't know if manwell knew it but he was the first in our group of three and I wish I kicked around him because manwell we hit the top of the pass and he's I don't know he think he stopped to get water or something but like I was like by far the first to leave the pass and I was like okay hopefully I'm not going to do that but and it's only actually I've been getting it because you know as you said manwell dropped but yeah that second descent was crazy and it was I think it was me first and it was me and Daniel were going down and there was a section of chain that came down the kind of you know parallel to like the track and then hit another chain that was kind of perpendicular and as I ran down it I picked up the chain and it raised the perpendicular chain and like a closed line and then Daniel I think ran into the back of me and it was just and then we got to the snow patch and there was a fixed line and initially you were hand lining that and running down and then the rope ran out and like both of us I mean it felt like we were running like you know three-minute kilometer pace like just down and like so very from snow patch it was just and and and it totally like absolutely dropped me and I was like I just can't I can't fucking hold with him and so yeah as you were saying that it was me and manwell and I was kind of in the we were kind of swapping leads and there was a moment going through the talus where I was kind of in like the primary track of travel and manwell tried to go around me and he was just a bit too slow and he went to kind of like stop to avoid running into me and you know it was kind of like a kitty litter on slab and he kind of just slipped and his shins went right into the talus and it looked really painful and I mean I just was like you know I felt bad because like he was kind of trying to avoid hitting me but it's just like you know the way it just kind of was and I messaged him after the race and I was like oh I hope you're okay and I mean he was like very sweet but no I I did I felt like going into the race I felt like it would be you me and him so you know kind of a bit of a pity that he dropped there because I think that would have been really interesting. Yeah yeah yeah he was he was second I think in 2018 when killing other records maybe it wasn't that year but certainly he's been seconded came on before. Yeah this is I think his third time doing this is okay. I think it one year like years ago we did as well. And then I am yeah and then at that point I was just going to say I think at that point and a total Daniel was kind of gapping me and then you it kind of transition from talus to more grass yeah and you know this was kind of a problem I had all day but I had star but I bruised my heel really bad. Back again sorry on you go. Well I was just going to say do you remember do you remember when we passed Daniel. Yeah it was I was I when we got to refuse any heavy. Bonacossa so about half half way. And we yeah we basically I think he was running really well he was strong like I've raised him before. But he seemed particularly strong and but I also had the sense and I think you maybe felt it too that we were just slowly coming in and yeah then we got it got past him at this bonacossa and then yeah then it was just just us two. I just wanted to say yeah man in morality was second to killing it was 2014 so not when coding got the record. But a good while ago so yeah he don't think years yeah. We never really talked and say yeah you were you were you were like 10 years ago you were like 36. I'm not even for you yet for like for like three days. And we didn't talk about it after we raised actually but you mentioned your your heel and and shoot your some things. How much were you aware of the heel while we were racing. Yeah I mean I felt it a tiny bit but I didn't slow me down at all yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Cool. But yeah I mean as we kind of talked about before then we were just kind of running and I think it was. I mean I saw it coming down the second pass it's like it's funny because I couldn't really remember from the tranter where you know one of us was stronger. And so I couldn't really remember how our strengths and weaknesses we kind of want to end up But it was pretty clear coming down the second pass, you know be it for you know I shoot choice I think to a tiny tiny extent, but I think mainly just you know ability and strength You know finally was was faster coming down the second pass and so it was like about the third or the fourth pass I just noticed like we'd get up to the top of the passes and then you know You would just start gapping me on the on the dissents and so I was like you know cheese if I don't get to the top of the seventh pass You know, I don't know what five minutes ahead of family like there's no way I can win And so like I mean, I think I could have done it way better But I kept trying to push the pace and and drop thinly, but it was just It just didn't make a difference. It was just we were just kind of glued together And then you would get like a slight gap descending the passes and then I would kind of Catch back on but it was incredible because so basically we We were to we got that together from basically the sort of But the descent from the second pass Then we got the kind of joint lead at the And this refuse gonna cost her which is after the third pass is kind of halfway and then we were like I mean no more than like 10 meters Away from each other and mostly like three meters or two in two meters away from each other for like all the way till the seventh pass and My perception of that I think I use you in the race were I think much more um you'd kind of Probably clock that and descending kind of difference more than more than me at the time all I was I suppose thinking was was that um We were just so well max like it's quite common in a race that you'll There'll be a couple of you vying at the front, but then maybe someone gets away quite considerably on an uphill and then the other guy will come past you know Faster on the downhill, but there's Damnit Howdy Hey, oh, yeah me Yes, sorry, this is the right path. We'll try try that and I was just saying that yeah often you'll tune for over to someone But but never have I kind of experienced Especially on like this technical terrain so for people who Don't know haven't seen pictures of Kima you should go and watch There's a black diamond video leg ara the race on youtube which has got record holder Hillary Gerardi And it's got a really lovely sort of drone footage of this of this valley You know the of these Passes and the race route and yeah, it's just bolder hopping and I suspect that's probably a strength for both of us um You know, we were used to that type of terrain and like the power to keep doing that for hours um But it's it was just incredible that we were We were so close and neither of us could could get away from the other um You know for hours Yeah What I guess I guess you you would kind of Pass me on the descents and I think you wouldn't even probably notice how you wouldn't see how large the gap was because Um, maybe you thought I was just given okay Actually, I'd give you a little space in case I kicked the rocker or something like that but um I mean mainly I think yeah, you couldn't even see it and then we got down to the flats and I would just kind of catch up to you But yeah, I mean I saw it you know every time we did a descent you know the gap would just okay Like especially if there was any grassy bits um but uh Yeah, so I knew I knew I was kind of doomed from all my out um I suppose yeah, I didn't see that but my perception because there's a lot of of traversing and on those traversy bits There's there's micro route choice all the time like even like which bolder to hop To the next pull they're from and we would be just uh sort of weaving in and out and like you said at the start It's not a sprint so you know you can exchange some words and we would have words um Not not like a whole conversation, but we'd have words And sometimes it was about the route and about how we were doing and the pace uh um I would be last year I took it wrongly if you wanted to do piramento with me I was just like oh god, I can't I can't think about that. I have Can't think about that now But that does say like really fun idea. Yeah, I don't know what's Yeah, I don't really know what's wrong with me because I was just like I was like yeah, this is I was like thinking this is pretty fun You know, I certainly I was trying like as hard as I could but I was just like yeah, this is yeah Maybe if I like uh maybe if it had been you know manwell was with us. I think the the whole energy would have been a lot different um But well would have been more competitive But I mean at least from my perspective it was like oh, this is like a fun This is like a fun run with Finley and I'm you know we're all trying as hard as we can We're just gonna stay in together and like we'd see water up ahead and we'd be calling out like I'd be like Oh, I'm gonna stop up here and I think I'm gonna stop at the next water and you know We just kind of would stop and uh find a good place to fill up and then just like kid enough keep keep going But I mean I thought it was quite it was quite fun But also yeah it was but also like doing the water stones But like definitely trying to do them really quickly and get a little edge like I was always Trying to get a little edge and I yeah, I I couldn't have um You know done any more on on the on the traversi bits and the uphills um And because it is a long race and we still had a long way to go um you still got to save something for that To send I suppose that was what I was thinking most of the time was you know You're still gonna save something for this descent jack hasn't raced that descent before so I was you know You try and give yourself all these little less psychological sort of uh boosts So I suppose I was trying to do that but uh I Yeah, I I couldn't have gone any faster on the on the flat on this sort of traversi bits Sounds like you you let your spec think maybe what you maybe could have found something else somehow Well, I think I think if I were to do it all over again. I mean um I think to an extent like because I think I did a lot of the route finding on the flat sections You know, I was almost like a fucking you know Domestika or something. I mean, I think we definitely traded it off But like I was just like happy just like chilling up front and just like setting the pace and everything and then um You know, we got to the last pass and I was just fuck so it's just like you know, that was just like not a very you know Your dumb race tactics and everything and I think a lot of races the tactics don't matter a ton But this is one where they're actually quite important Because the route finding does you know, maybe slow you down a bit Maybe and so it's like maybe hypothetically. I should have I should have if I had any reserve You know, which I mean I race basically I ran it just at my limit I think we're both just kind of at the limit there But I probably should have hung back you know realized you were faster on the descents You know hung back for a while and Kind of like built up some energy and then just really tried to push on You know, probably one of the more flat sections because it was interesting I felt like you were faster on the descents But you were also almost I think a bit faster on the really really steep sections and um I it was just it was uh it was it was it was interesting because I think you Probably do I think you do more diverse kind of speed work than I do because like my speedwork I basically just run you know steep non-technical trail is pretty much all I ever do and I know you do some some flat speed work And maybe some more technical speed work, but um I was like damn like some of the really kind of like steep Almost kind of scrambling bits that you're like taking really big strides. I felt like you were able to open up a bit of gap on those two And so yeah, I think I think I could have been a bit more technical, but I don't know if this is helpful, but um I certainly it wasn't a tactical decision by me to sort of sit in behind you and and use yours a root finder like I and I in the moment I yeah, I didn't I didn't feel like I was sort of using that I was still You know trying to find the way I'm looking for the red and white flashes and everything, but undoubtedly obviously You know you are just behind someone who's on the route, so you know it must help um Yeah, yeah, you you kept saying you kept saying you were like you were like uh oh I can I could go first or you know I could take a ticket you know or or something I mean good I don't remember And I was like oh you know I'm I'm happy doing the route finding It was like we were out for like a social jog together and uh I was like yeah whatever and then um I don't remember saying that because yeah, I don't remember that because in my head uh I don't really yeah, but I probably did if you say if you remember it but um Yeah Because I feel like there was there's so much little route choices and the way I tend to race is like kind of I try, I like to get fresh air in front and see and take my own, you know, quite often in races, I'll take my own little micro shortcut, which ends up being slower, but it's just like still worth it, still worth it to get, to get my own line. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know a lot of times you were kind of, to even start with me. Yeah, you'd be. But I'd take it. Yeah. It was, um, but yeah, I mean, I did you know, did you ever see Christian? Uh, no, who was third in the end? Then you'd be third. You was that far back. Yeah. No, I mean, because it's not like it's fine, mate. Like it's not the kind of race that you can look back really at all, um, because you're just looking at your feet, aren't you? Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, you would fall. Yeah. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was you now. So what I was just going to say, what was, what was going through your mind and we had crested that last pass? I guess you didn't realize, um, the advantage you had maybe or, uh, no, I don't think I did. Um, because earlier on, like on the sixth pass, you'd, you'd made a push, which I could feel you doing, but I was also, that was where I got the lead from, and the deer and McWay, uh, two years ago. So I was sort of fired up to, to try and not let you away. And then, and then you shouted, fuck, and, uh, I was like, what was wrong? What's wrong? Uh, but yeah, you were sort of creating some, some psych and, uh, yeah, I, I, I was desperate for something. But then after that, passed the Gianetti hot towards the final pass, it just felt totally bonkers. We were, yeah, sort of working together, but sort of like head to head, drooling, uh, oh, that's right. You asked me in that section. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like we were having been being, uh, being a, yeah, yeah, I was certainly leading a bit to that, but you were like right behind me. So yeah, going up to the last pass, I, um, yeah, didn't thought, oh, shit, are we going to be like racing like neck and neck along like the final road and the heat? Um, what's that going to be like? But then, um, oh yeah, it's, it's kind of different terrain then, isn't it? It's sort of more, it's windy, more grassy, but definitely with lots of locks and slabs around. Um, I did feel, feel a little bit of a gap developing and just knew that's obviously my, my chance to, to go and, um, of course, then I was just bloody terrified, you know, that, um, you're going to come past on the, on the road, on the flat. And, but I think that kind of running scared just makes you run, run harder, doesn't it run faster? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you now, so how much you probably ran through the line as hard as you could because you realized you were going to be setting the course record? What point did you know you were going under Killian's time? Um, I thought, so we were up on, um, the splits I had from last year. So it says, sorry, two years, it only runs every two years. In 2022, I was like less than a minute slower than Killian's record. So I basically had my splits from that record. Yeah. Um, but I was being a bit vague about, about then, whenever they came up in, in a few, uh, comments back and forth. Um, yeah. So we were, we were on then, like, bye, bye. I thought, we could be up, you know, potentially five minutes up. Um, so yeah. It, it really, really, really interesting because, um, I think there is a Strava segment that goes from the top of the first pass. I think to the seventh pass. And I think we did that section three minutes faster than Killian. Um, and, um, yeah. I'm pretty certain we did from the, the last pass to the finish faster than Killian. Um, and I think, I think though that he might have gone, uh, and I know that we, I think we also did from Predaroza to the first pass faster than him. I think he though went from the start to Predaroza much faster than we did. Uh, because his, I would do, I would do like threshold, you know, kind of like tempo workouts, whatever, um, on the climb up to Predaroza and I'm cutting the switchbacks and going up to the, um, Ponti Hut. And I could like, I could beat the road splits. I would beat, I would often not do them based on the watch. I would just do them off a feel and I would usually beat the road splits. I would always beat the splits up to the Ponti Hut from Predaroza to the Ponti Hut. Um, Killian, you should see Killian's time cutting the switchbacks. It's like, it's like at least a minute faster. It's like, I think it might be a minute 30 faster than I did it on race day, like just that one section on what the hell exactly happened there. Um, but there are some very fast times cutting those switchbacks that, uh, I don't think we were all that close to it. Uh, so it's just, I don't really, I would like to look more, but I am kind of curious where, because I don't think Killian closed it that fast. I think Killian and I basically probably closed it at more or less the same pace. Um, so yeah, I am kind of curious where we kind of like gained in the lost time versus the course record. Um, I think, yeah, because I'm not really sure. I'd worry about some rough times on the road. Um, and this is going into minutiae, but I think to the like corner before the tunnel, we were like slightly faster than two years ago. But then I think by the time we got to Predaroza, it was about the same as two years ago. Um, yeah, I mean, that bit you could run faster, but then do you risk blowing up or getting tired before all the technical stuff? Yeah. Um, what, um, what was your recovery like? What's up with the Scotch? Yeah. What was the most fun I would be internet? I was going to ask what your recovery was like. Oh, um, yeah, no, it was, it was, it was, uh, it was pretty brutal. I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember, um, first couple days afterwards didn't do anything. And then I went out and I did a day, you know, it's the race on Saturday, probably on Wednesday or Thursday. I went out and I did like a thousand meters of game and it was one of those like classic post race kind of sessions where, you know, you go out and you feel all right and you kind of go up and then all of a sudden you're like, okay, I really wish I could stop now, but I have to run all the way back from the right game from. So, uh, going up felt, you know, kind of poor, but it felt all right and then coming down was just, was just awful. And so the next couple days I went a bit lighter. Okay. But yeah, no, it was hard. I was, I was relieved when I texted you and found out that you also were taking a bit of time. Yeah. To recover from it. Yeah. My legs were absolutely trashed. Like the day two dorms were, and we're really bad. Plus then I like sat on a train to get, to get back to Scotland for like a day or two days and then went to work. So I didn't do a whole lot of recovery running which probably didn't help either. So nice to be, uh, to be game back. Uh, finally. Yeah. Yeah. We always, I was, I was, I was the real, mainly in my calves for whatever reason. Um, do you, are you pretty? I'm not sure, but are you keen to race again or, um, I mean, it sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm, I'm talking, I'm doing it again. Um, I mean, unfortunately, I mean, I, I guess the level of competition probably will be so high like if you show up, uh, if man, well, man will probably be there. I have to imagine. Yeah. Yeah. And so I mean, that's, that's enough right there. And if the course record, you know, we don't even try to threaten the course record, but I mean, certainly I would, I would, uh, do more heat and do, uh, some flat speed work because I was just, I was dying, you know, at the end. I just have no running economy. Just so brutal. So, uh, I mean, I think we had a quite a good day as far as weather. I think it always could be a little bit cooler. But, you know, we had a little bit of sun through the first and second pass and then, you know, right as the sun was starting to get more intense, like we went into the clouds and we were kind of like in the clouds for the rest of it. So, uh, that's not the end also, but I think we got as probably as lucky as we could. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. that Clive came in and I was sort of, that's a massive green light for me. I was like, yes, this is another one of those kind of psychological tools that I was gonna use to try and push me on and yeah, absolutely. Yeah. - Nice, it's nice for us. When things kind of like, you know, it's just incredible with trail running like, I don't know if it's a global warming issue, but it is challenging. Like you bring up, you know, you know, you're kind of not inclined to do Jirudamat 'cause it's so damn hot and like, you know, I agree with you, like it's too fucking hot. Like I don't know if you or I are even able to heat train where we can really perform on that level and you know, to kind of be a trail runner, you have to be good in the heat. It's really like so important. And like, you know, Jim Wandsley is, was born Phoenix, Arizona and is very good in the heat. And when I did Jirudamat, I mean, I have never seen anything like it. I mean, it was probably, I don't know, it was probably 26, 27, 28 degree Celsius. So again, I'm like, time to do these conversions in my head. And I mean, I finished and I almost like heat stroked on the course and I get to the finish and the 18-T version of the race had finished a while ago, but the two Kenyans had won the 18K. And they are standing there at the finish line and they're wearing, like, you know, they're wearing like warm-ups. They're wearing like a sweatshirt and sweatpants. And like everybody else, all the Italians are wearing like, you know, tiny shorts, as possible. We're in, like, everybody who did the race is like, you know, drinking ice water. And these guys are standing there in sweatshirts and sweatpants and they're not even sweating. And I'm like, you know, what the hell is wrong with you guys? Like, aren't you hot? And they're like, they're like, oh, it's not that bad. You know, and it is hotter in Kenya. It's like, okay, Jesus. So, I mean, just crazy. But, yeah. I mean, I think I need to sort some better sauna access for sure, just some better heat training protocols. Just tricky. - Yeah, 'cause there's only so many hours in a day, right? So you're also trying to do your altitude and eat well and sleep well and obviously just run. So do your sessions. It's, yeah, it's hard to fit it all in. - Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah. I mean, I do like the sauna. I think the active heat training with the extra layers, it's a bit better. - By the way, yeah. - The sauna's pretty good and like, you know, to killian, like, you know, killian is much smaller than us. So I don't think he, you know, by physics, I don't think he has as many heat issues, but by his own admission, he has a lot of trouble in the heat. And I was reading something where he says he does heat training year round. So, I mean, I've always heard heat training is something you can pick up very quickly, like in three sessions. There's like a 17% improvement in heat performance, just over three sessions. But, you know, for whatever reason, he is concluded that he has to maintain that heat stimulus year round. And, you know, you see him win, here is an all, when, you know, even the Ken Hens looked like a little toasty. - Yeah. - At least. So, maybe there's hope for us, but, or maybe, you know, I'm just, delusional. (laughs) - Well, that's interesting. The other thing about Kima is just good. The community, all Italian races I've done have found this. The something about, yeah, these little mountains and towns, they all just get the entire community, it feels like it gets behind the race. And there's this crazy atmosphere. I mean, it helps with the sun shining, and it's not raining, and there's no midgies. But, yeah, like the post race, party, food, just the kind of whole atmosphere. Really nice, really friendly and genuine. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, no. Certainly, yeah, Jirdomain here, people are super into the race. And, yeah, I mean, I think it would be, I mean, I think just to win would be awesome. I mean, I think to break your course record would be fantastic. But I think, you know, you're the one who's like obsessed with the numbers. (laughs) I think it would be cool to go under six hours. Like, I don't know, I don't know where the fucking time would come off. You know, I think we both had a pretty, it's funny because Anna before the race started, you know, she said to me, like, I think, you know, between you and Finley, it'll just come down to who makes less mistakes. And I was like, well, I was like, I don't know on this level of race, I don't think anybody's gonna make any fucking mistakes. And she meant like, you know, injury. But she was, you know, totally right about Louis Stonon and Manuel, you know, that's what happened. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You know, I suppose we should just be happy that we finished the race in one piece because, you know, of that lead group of five, you know, two people did not, you know, didn't finish our miserable fine now. But yeah, I think you, yeah, no, I don't know where I'm kind of gone. Like definitely with this change, I was just thinking of, - And I guess you had, sorry, go ahead. - Oh, I was gonna make some dumb joke about, you know, you having Stian next time and, you know, God knows what sort of, you know, diuretic sort of stuff. (laughing) - I mean, it does. - You'll comment. Yeah, I don't know. I haven't followed that controversy at all. - Yeah. I was just gonna say about the chains. Yeah, like you said, when you're racing and other people are picking up the chains and putting, you know, forces on them, like, you know, something you're scrambling downhill, sometimes you just kind of have to step over a chain. And I was just quite conscious that if that one was then to be jerk tight at that exact moment and catch your foot, like, it could be, it could be pretty bad on that techie terrain. It's a crazy race, really. - Yeah, I mean, I would say, I would say the race, the race, I would say was a bit, I mean, I was a bit surprised, you know, how dangerous it is. I mean, they had a fatality, I know, in 2005, I think when someone slipped and fell on what rock, I mean, yeah, I mean, I believe the race should exist for sure, but normally, I think the mandatory kit and a lot of these races is like you see the UTMBOCC list and it's like, fucking, you know, crazy. But I mean, rain jacket, rain pants, emergency blanket, you know, for this race, it's like, okay, you know what, that makes actually a fair bit of sense because it is an Arlady and I think, you know, you could play either end of it, like you and I and, you know, Manuel and everybody are up there racing at the top end, you know, kind of like, pushing the descents as much as possible and like, you know, really risking the descents, but, you know, if you push to the middle of the field, you know, you have a bunch of people going down this terrain with a lot of loose rock on it. Like, I mean, yeah, sure, yeah, I cannot imagine you're gonna loose rock that probably gets kicked, but I know I had to be very conscious at times, you know, to not kick any rock down. - And then the rock, that's an intense thing for me. I was just gonna say any thoughts on the, and didn't affect us, but, or didn't affect us, but the cutoff seemed really tight, particularly for the women's field. - Yeah. - So the winning, the records and I was six hours and five minutes, the cutoff saw, well, it was six hours and nine minutes and the cutoff saw 11 hours. And, but the women's record is seven hours 30. - Yep. - So it's, and there was sort of a comment that quite a few, you know, competent women, you know, just got timed out because, you know, they've got less of a, you know, percentage time to, less of a percentage of the winning women's time to sort of work with, right? - Yeah, but yeah, yeah. And just not to circle back on the other point, but I think the one place where we both could make up time is, you know, somehow, you know, with these Italian races I find, there's like the rules and then there's like the rules as they are enforced. And like, it seemed to be, to me, that a vest was absolutely required, but there were, you know, a couple of athletes in the top five who had just belts on. And, you know, you and I were lucky enough to have my dad at Ponty, but I think one kind of, you know, way to take this course of it faster is, if we both went out with just belts on, and, you know, we had somebody at, you know, three or four of the eight stations, I think that would make a big difference. And, you know, you could totally see, you know, the way Editas Terrix kind of does trail running, you could totally see some Terrix style strategy applied to this race where, you know, Scarpa, it would make a lot of, there's so many dance Scarpa athletes in the race, like, I don't know why the fucking Scarpa team doesn't have somebody at every fucking, you know, refugial. Maybe they do. I know some athletes did kind of have that level of support. So I think, yeah, if you weren't pairing anything, maybe, yeah, maybe that would be another way to kind of push things a bit quicker, but certainly, I'd do the mon, I did have more support like mine, and my parents were at, you know, three or so of the, every hour I saw them. And it is, you know, it is a bit more stressful. There is something to be said, you know, when you're carrying all your own stuff, you know, from start to end, you know, finished where you're kind of like you don't think about meeting anybody or anything else you're just kind of like you know you just kind of got all your own on stuff and that's kind of the end of it but yeah I think it is it is faster if you had people out there at handy bottles then you know because I had you know I had quite a few gels you know it was at least you know a couple of a pound or so of gels you know that I was standing with me I mean probably more I think they weigh like 50 60 grams each. So you were having I think you said like three gels an hour like 120 grams carbs an hour. Yeah yeah so I pushed I did 120 grams per hour and then I got to like hour five and I had an additional couple of genels and they were I couldn't fit I was worried if I put all the gels in the front of my vest they were bounced out and so I dropped some of them down the back pocket and most of them kind of stayed at the top but some of them like warmed their wet underneath my like you know rain jacket and rain pants and I just couldn't I wish I'd dry I had a little bit harder but I couldn't get them out so I just kind of gave up so the last I think last hour I didn't need anything okay I don't know if that that may have affected me a bit so yeah that probably would have would have would have helped to help you a bit but yes you know I'd like 20 like 20 gels or something right yeah no so I had I was having the Morton 160 gel yeah which is 40 grams of carbohydrates I think the total gel weight is somewhere between 50 and 60 grams so you know I started I had powder from my dad you know one of my bottles and I powder off the start but yeah if you did you know 120 grams per hour you know that probably is up in around 60 grams of actual you know total gel weight and you know if you did that for six hours you know that's you know what 960 grams you know that's almost a kilo and just a gels that you're carrying I guess it's not crazy it's the as much as a 500 milliliters off last or something but yeah it's a it's a bit of weight yeah it was like two isn't it two five two five hundred mill be like a liter of water isn't it oh shit I'm sorry yeah you're right it's two five hundred yeah yeah it's quite a bit yeah I mean I I was doing I had like probably 16 gels something like that so and then there's loads of water at the age stations and actually on the course there was a bunch of fill-ups so that was that was good yeah I don't think I think the only times we filled up at the age stations were when we were after we were separated you know I think you might have filled up I tried to fill up at on the oh when I walk my as I was filling it up I dropped my flask and then at bognia did stop and and fill up but otherwise yeah we just went out of the streams because it was just a lot faster yeah anything else we haven't covered no I think that's yeah I know I think that's pretty much that's that's pretty much it I was just I mean I I think we discussed the little bit earlier but you you basically because I guess you thought I was behind you and you knew you were gonna get the course record you basically ran it is more or less as hard as you could you'd say yeah yeah say so yeah because I was yeah I didn't know where you'd be and I wanted the record and yeah yeah for sure yeah and you just sort of um yeah let's hope it you know it's it's really hurting but you you just know you know okay I've just got to just got to keep it this and it's going to be it's going to be done quite soon yeah but the the I mean that was up there I mean obviously you know for me you know coming out in first at the end getting the record you know a killing record that's super cool but I think the thing I'll probably remember equally from that race is just that sort of like being glued together and that experience of sort of racing that you know with someone who's you know we're very similarly matched on the techie terrain so and obviously that pushed me on to run harder so thank you very much for that yeah no thank you dude that was yeah that was I mean it was it was a lot of it was a lot of fun you know was a yeah it was just I mean it's just funny you know just kind of in my mind you know it's kind of like a fun you know it's kind of the fun run out you know and I think also maybe it was fun I don't know yeah I yeah that was just kind of enjoyable but yeah I know it's cool what are you are you gonna race again this season you think or hey I am gonna do some UK racing and yeah you know I've been I've been doing so much traveling and driving I've need to really probably do yoga and physio and sort out a couple a couple of issues hey yeah nothing crazy but just yeah to work on that I probably do Langdale in October in the lake district real classic and yeah what are your plans for from now oh I mean I haven't really talked about this at all but I think I'm kind of debating but I may try to give Jim Womzley's Grand Canyon Render and Durin Records ago I think part of me still has some unfinished business in the in the Northeast of the US like like the penny loop or you know my I love the Hutchiverse I only have done the Hutchiverse once and I made a wrong turn that out of like 15 minutes I have to redo that and then the Presley I've I have presidential traverse I've I've redone once at this point but I kind of want to I redid it last year and took my record a bit faster but I kind of want to keep it's nights I think each year to kind of check in and kind of see how the fitness is but that's about three and a half hours so this was one of your your favorites I think I think it's one of your favorites is my favorite my president yeah my president you know the presidential traverse just good but it was like it goes over pool I don't know like six peaks named after like US presidents and it's just it's just like a hiking trail but it's like I would say it's very similar to Kima I would say it's like Kima but like it's never quite as technical as the chains on Kima but it's also more technical than like even the running in between the passes it's kind of like like it's not as bad as like when you're going down the Bivouac Kima that huge talus but it's kind of like some of the less because some of the smaller talus sections it's like that you know 32k or whatever it is it's it's really really good but uh yeah I mean I think I think though this this summer and racing kind of Kima and Jürgen Monde kind of gave me more confidence to kind of do some more trail races maybe that I I lacked before so I figure if I want to start bridging up into some more maybe some more run-able races I've always kind of lacked that running ability uh I should maybe give like an FKT a shot you know it's like a decent way to kind of like bridge up I mean gyms any other thing is is like gyms effort was like deeply I think compromised in a couple of in a couple of ways I mean he just I think if he went and did it today he could do it much faster and so knowing that um you know that it's a bit a bit soft I think for him at least uh that's a bit encouraging because you know it's you're running across the Grand Canyon and back and he he took it out so unbelievably fast he ran the first opening split so much faster than his return split um it's honestly kind of insane when you do no kind of dig into the numbers so uh I think he kind of had an intention like when he was going out like oh I'm just gonna break the record just for crossing the canyon a single time the rim to rim record oh really but then once he got there he's his kind of crew and some other things kind of was like okay I might as well run back at this point too so uh yeah kind of the rim to rim to rim it's like the classic record but he actually broke both records uh during the effort um so yeah I think there's there's definitely room for him to go faster and maybe you know there's room for me to go a bit faster than his his current time so uh I'm still not really sure you know I'm gonna kind of keep an open mind as we go back to the US but uh yeah I mean I've still got some some still clift I think if the if the tank was a bit more empty maybe the northeast would make sense because it's like you know ground a much more comfortable on and you know I've scouted all that stuff you know a ton and don't that they need to focus too much on it but um yeah so I think I might give that a give that a shut up sounds amazing thanks as always for chatting um thanks for your patience with the technical issues which I'll hopefully edit edit out and oh yeah I'm in a problem sorry about it yeah hope to see you again possibly in the winter for some uh for something yeah yeah I think we're gonna come out February March, I think we'll be here. - Really? - I don't. I think it's not block where to have like a really, really good year. Maybe I'd do it a shot, but otherwise like, I need a break for like a decade from that project. (laughing) - Great, well let's leave it there. End of episode with 39 with Jack Canzel, me, Finley Wild, great giant to Jack as always. Hope you enjoyed it. I'm seeing you next time. - Thanks for my-- - See ya. (upbeat music)