Episode 39 of Care Shift with Prateesh Maheshwari & Navin Nagiah

I am extremely extremely excited to be sat here about to talk to the great girls in Kedish. Mine is Dylan Sullen, I am a filmmaker and it is absolute privilege to be introducing Bill and to be talking to him as well. It is going to be a drawing as well. I am not sure how much of an introduction he needs, but he is one of my very very comic artists and he is working to create and find out, painting, collage and abstract expressionism in mainstream comic making as a revolutionist and one of the most recognised working in comics. From Landmarkers on Moonlight to the Unions to Electroassassin, he is one of my very best family in the comic book world and Bill has had you. Thank you so much. Thank you everybody. Thank you so much. I think I will start at the beginning when the comics become a thing for you. There are times when it feels like they were always there for me. I had conversations with a lot of artists and writers and the dynamic that kind of comes up is it is not so much when did you decide that you were going to do comics? It is when did comics sink their claws into? It is like I keep thinking of that line. Arthur Miller said that playwriting chose him. I certainly felt that comics chose me. I do know that when I was seven, I told my father that this is what I was going to be doing for a living. I could react. His drinking increased exponentially. I think he wanted to be an artist as well, but he said he had to find a job. He was very supportive in the way of allowing me to follow my artistic views. He also wanted me to have a real job to fall back on. He taught me electrical wiring. Back in the days, before digital, when things had tubes, vacuum tubes, when there were antennas on people's roofs, I was doing that stuff. Climbing up and finding that. By the way, your antenna is up and you have hornets. It was a whole, plus, I opened in the farm country, so it was also bailing hay and other things like that. I knew pretty much from the get-go that I wanted to do comics. I just thought they were such an amazing medium, especially from the newspaper strips, because my grandfather was a coalminer and he'd come over. When you have that kind of in your history, I think it shapes you in a way. It kind of puts things in perspective. I do know that his English wasn't great, but I know that our Sunday mornings were, I would spend time with both of my grandparents. My grandfather and I would get together on Sunday morning and read the Sunday papers. There's bunnies. There was everything from, again, this is the US version, so it's like peanuts and Dick Tracy. There were romance strips, there were like very funny strips, very abstract strips and all with different tonalities. Some were very serious, some were very silly, and some actually had captions, like the Prince Valiant stuff. I just remember thinking, it was a way for us to bond. His English got better. Mine, as you'll find out, did not, but it was a way for us to bond. At the same time, I just fell in love with the medium. What I actually really loved about it was that I thought just this format alone can do so many things. Plus, I just loved to draw. That was one thing I found out really early on. Having that idea that's something you want to do, but it's these days that you don't want to do a gun on your own, so I will have to. I have Australia. There's all kinds of YouTube tutorials and pathways visible to them. Right, oh boy. How do you go from being like this is something I love doing. I love comics. I'd really like to do it as a career. Was there a pathway open to you? I think at any point, I've been asked to years. I think any artist will probably be asked, "Are you, did you go to school or are you self-taught?" I generally feel that if you're any kind of committed artist in any field of art, you are self-taught because it's not just going to school and filling in the hours until the bell rings. It's like it's all everything you do after hours. It's all the commitment and the obsession and everything else to it. All of the jokes and the clichés about, if you have to ask yourself, "Am I an artist and you're not?" That kind of thing. It's like I have no choice in the matter. But there was no. I just remember drawing comics on the newspaper with the lines for class assignments. That kind of thing. Just make these things up as I went along. There were absolutely zero, especially growing up where I grew up. There were very few people who read comics, even of my own age. There certainly were no comic shops. I wasn't a very rural area of New Jersey in the States. My grandparents lived in an area in what's called Scranton. If anybody's seen the American version of the office, it's that kind of disparity. That getting comics there, they were on a spinner rack, they weren't sorted out. There was no way to get too consecutive issues and anything. For me, I just would go to Pennsylvania with my family and just read comics and then I would go back to New Jersey and just draw and write and just come up with story ideas. It was just obsession. I had no idea what I was doing and to this day, that stands. Every time I think I have a clue of what I'm doing, the work always lets me know how little I do know. So I'm around thinking that you called the audience DC before you even finished projects? Well, I fall in love with comics and then I was a big fan of DiPgo and Kirby and the idea of seeing any European comics in the area I grew up in was not something that was ever going to happen. It was something I came to understand and see when I first started working at Marvel. I think there was actually one point when I think Brian Balland and a few other colleagues came to visit the Marvel offices and seeing 2008D and Judge Dredd and things like that. They were almost submitting samples of their work to see if they could possibly get work at Marvel. But yeah, I had fall in love with comics. I drew on comics all through grammar school, all through high school. I fell in love with illustration and wanted to be a painter as well. So I started doing like painted comics like big pieces for first school displays or murals, all of that, that typical art lover of, you know, so therefore I'm going to get into every art related thing in high school. So then when I did that, I ended up going to art school and I discovered a whole other world of illustration and fine art. It was like my eyes had been completely open, fashion illustration, collage. And I got really heavily influenced by filmmakers like David Lynch as well. So my eyes really literally were opened wide. And I realized that I was going to try to get into comics. All my friends were older in school and I was actually a year behind them, was a three year school. And they were all going off to find their, you know, their forge and somewhere. And I thought, well, let me just see, you know, I've always lived comics. I thought I'll get a portfolio together. Just see what happens and then I'll go to the DC the offices because I didn't think about Marvel at all I didn't think my work was was was good enough for Marvel in any way shape or form so I I put together a portfolio in about a month about like 15 pages and put on all my petroleum based clothing because it's like, you know That's what everything was in the 70s, you know, and I just I went and took the training There was there was no, you know, call ahead. There was no Thing that you see now where you end up having to give it like a pint of blood and a you know a credit report plus, you know Six valid forms of ID to be able to you know be shuttled around like I actually just went up to the offices and sat down Said I'm here to see whatever is the art director and they Because I thought at the very least they'll look they could look at my stuff and they can say look just give it up or I could get it maybe get some feedback and a little bit of Input, you know encourage mentor whatever like you know, yes with this maybe you know with that or try this and it And if it didn't work out I would just go back to school and finish up the third year and then figure out what I was going to do after that so I felt like it was a gamble. I was well, you know going to take and Vinnie Colletta who was a notorious anchor and I say I used word notorious specifically but he He actually liked my work. He said but I can't hire you because we're firing people like we're in the middle of all a big layoff right now and But so he ended up calling up me a lot of who is my hero and And somebody from the office walked me over to continuity and he also my portfolio sort of opened it up in front of the the whole art studio and I mean The back of the DNA the through line was was like, you know It was just beyond an homage to his stuff. You know, I just felt like I was trying to channel him But he was incredibly supportive and I mean he went from being sort of my idol my hero just to me, you know Like in the later years calling him dad, you know, I mean, it was just Amazing amazing talent and such a such a ground-breaking, you know talent for a really a force of nature, but He ended up calling up shooter James Shooter who was the editor in chief at the time and said, you know, there's a kid probably draws like me, you know and which you know For for shooter he heard that me was just like, okay, bring him over and I think that they they saw all of my back And I said because I went I was not gonna go to marble So all of the characters that I had drawn were it was like a DC portfolio It was it was there was no Thor there was no spider-man It was just I think Five pages maybe the tenets or covers or whatever and then Three or four pages of pencils and then like four pages of ancient something like that You know, I don't know that as up to but lately that's sort of what I remember the like that I had done and the ends up asking me if I wanted to work on a character called moon night when I had never heard of moon night And I think that they sort of decided that they saw these Batman drawings and they said well I just make this character moon night to sort of a Batman Bigger so that's really where it came from and I saw I literally walked in with a portfolio of DC stuff And I'm aware like how surreal it is and how Like insanely blessed I was unfortunate I was I mean just I went in there not knowing anything at all about what I was doing and then I walked in You know with a portfolio and pretty much walked out of the career You know, it it was it just you know to this day blew me away in both me and what was interesting is that the train that I took Into you know, and when you're younger even sometimes when you're old you kind of romanticize certain things Because I do remember when I took the train and it was it was in a smoking car You know in an old rickety train with the width they had wicker seeds and it was you know Well, but that's you know, that's you know, it's part of the industrial revolution I think it's illegally mandated, you know, that it's like you know, it's like we don't have as many hazards as as possible We have to match out all a hazard, you know and It was really uncomfortable and of course, you know It's one of the things where you sit on this hard wicker and you end up with like this lattice on the back Because they're on your legs, you know that kind of thing, but on and on the way home I somehow stumbled into like a commuter rail train which was silent and it was like you know Everybody in executive suits reading the newspaper was quite air-condition No, not a trace of wicker anywhere and it like and as the sun was going down I just remember thinking you know like just hearing like This music in my head like kind of going this is this is kind of Interesting, you know, I can come in like one way and I'm kind of going out So I may into a bigger deal in my head like this is a symbol Just talking about the art college Is it true from centuries and years of art college like advocating on your interests in coming up? Oh, yeah, a lot of them share a lot of I mean, I think your discretion of You know artists of any, you know Anybody who been really interested in stuff. They you know in terms of art I don't think that there were the snobs were the teachers really the ones who you know Group food, you know comics and I think we see less and less of that now. I mean hopefully But certainly that was the case which in a weird way only inspired and was more of an incentive to continue on I mean, it was nothing better than being told, you know like what you love sucks or you know Don't do that and for any of anybody who's a conferian by any nature It's like well, you know, I'll show you, you know, it's like And in that portfolio you took birth to DC and I was modeled like How is selfish was Your eye at that point how is selfish was kind of the style that we know is yours today Oh, I think if if I had tried to get into Marvel or DC With and this is the thing I learned is that is that I Specifically whether I'm aware of it in any kind of a a Machiavellian sort of cognitive sense I just thought well if I'm going to go into comics because I already it in some respects I already kind of moved beyond like past kneel in art school I was really into other illustrators like, you know Movie got movie poster art or TV guide or sports illustrated back with illustration and magazines was kind of still a thing and So I thought well if I'm gonna get you know try to get some working comics. I'll put on the dilemmas hat again Because I spend so much time with that um, but if I had tried to get work With the work that I ended up doing later on their new mutants or What I'd do now or whatever there'd be no way that would have hired me. I had to kind of come in under like Like in disguise or something, you know in a palatable way Did any of the early comparisons in the animus kind of vicious of There was that there was absolutely a pivotal thing I mean at first it was it was the response was wow this guy is like Like a Neil Adams clone, you know, he's like he's and he's been doing the Adams clone You know, whatever whatever that many and I you know that that was actually part of my list. Miss test I looked at other guys who were doing quote doing kneel and I thought well, okay, it's like I think I'd do that better than him I have a shot, you know and but um The uh, I'm sorry, your question and so other did that comparison. Oh, yeah And I said that drive you yeah, well there was yeah, that was great at first and then slowly what what happened is that you know, Wilson coverage work loads like It looks like he learned to draw come Neil Adams Curie and so I started to feel Really invisible and upset and angry again growing up in a very rural environment There was no adult artist to sort of say, you know, you really should be yourself and you don't follow your own instincts And you know, we you know Learn from other artists, but you know, don't try to be down, you know, it's uh You know, if there's a little bit more uh, just step back and they try to be a little more, you know objective and um So I started feeling like you know kind of angry and I thought all the things that were in my sketchbook fashion illustration different multimedia like Everything that I ended up eventually doing later on um I just thought okay, I'm either going to because everybody was saying you can't do that And I no one could come up with a you know, it's substantial enough or valid enough reason to me It was like because I again, I had felt that comics could do anything growing up And then when I heard that you know, it's like no, that's not what comics are No one could pretend a valid argument to me to you know to not do it and for me that what what that Ultimately, the tale was just, I mean, going to get in and do things my way or like tell stories the way I want to or I'm going to get out because this uh this sort of hybridized hell is you know it's up in some respects of my own making you know a lot of ways of my own making but just it just all of the the accolades that I had gotten like just people who saw my work when I was a kid didn't know Neil Adams you know they just saw my work but coming into comics and obviously everybody knows Neil's work and so they could do the comparison thing and um and it ran it's course in terms of its novelty fairly quickly and I guess it's the same journey but all very honest you know the videos go from I want to hold your hands it's more and I know it's you know it's fun to play stuff and relating things that are beautiful in a place I know it's a great yeah I think that's really true I also think in what's interesting is that the more I look at younger artists or other artists and I see who influence them and I think we are kind of a culmination of our influences not so much that like we take from them in in a certain respect um like they define it but the fact that we've chose them in the first place is something resonates and that's the part that is kind of intriguing to me it's like why was I drawn to this particular style of stuff um it's like that that wouldn't compute but yet somehow it kind of all goes in there you know and and they extends like when I I was growing up I was into all the artists and the anybody with two comics I one time or another crawled through my pencil I mean everybody from you know South East them uh you know Neil was my like my main guy um uh searcher Argonis was a huge influence just in terms of the joy I mean that's the big thing also and I don't know if you find this good filming but at the end of the day I realized that I you know it's up to that that buffer sticker that says a bad day of fishing is better than a good day at work you know to me it's like even on the worst days I feel like I don't know what I'm doing and everything's you know a struggle it's still decent it's still fun you know I mean it should be you know I mean I've nailed my hands my forehead enough times and and you know and it's uh and I always end up laughing at myself you know so how does it feel when you start to influence people yourself for example like that's a dead machine like it's very close because I don't know you have an asylum without you know you can see your influence on others and on steel. Yeah I mean one I love games like games working I love where he's gone with with what he's doing but it certainly it was um uh it was it felt wonderful it also felt kind of daunting because it felt like there was a level of responsibility essentially not necessarily with Dave but like I've been asked to teach and I have like I've taught the keyword school and school of visual arts and New York actually wanted me to work and I but I was always um suspicious about that only because I felt that I don't know quite what I'm doing I I I've been making so many mistakes I'm driving this art car into the trees repeatedly and I don't want to be teaching somebody like one how to be a Neil Adams clone you know or that um like in a way if I were to do it have to be through the process of discovery as well it's like look I'm making this up as I go along and there's still a huge part of it that is that it's like I always been surprised to me I think of of drawing and any kind of creativity in a way like it's it's my own little sort of Polish version of you know type Tyler Durdensky you know or something it's like uh five words like I am both the driver and on the passenger at the same time and it's it's like uh so it's always sort of surprising it seems to me that your work must take both and it's into the spanning but also allowing for a multitude of happy accidents as well you know yeah somebody's this once described as sort of controlled chaos and I think that that's pretty accurate I have and again the psychology behind a lot of help you know because I sort of feel like over the years you know back when I was drawing and wanting to get into comics and I started into comics I had developed pretty pretty substantial I wasn't an alcoholic but I was a drunk I was a certain you know and I drank a lot and I've been to breaking my drawing hand um and which prompted me to sort of stop you know drinking yeah exactly good I like that why am I like I just pictured myself like rewinding my whole life going like you know and I'm digging it in alley right now with a bag of just like uh but oh okay yes yes but you know people would talk about like the arts and what you do and what you you create as sort of like if you have a positive outlook it's just like people would talk about Jimmy Hendrick so they talk about like a lot of artists who are afraid even comedians actors will say like if I if I deal with my stuff because I ended up going because I was married at the time just sort of gave up everything gave up red meat gave up you know all of the things that I felt were hurting me plus also I got into therapy and I you know got divorced it was like I'm getting into therapy and I'd like work on myself so I don't keep turning around like sabotaging myself and uh you know and kind of can enjoy like getting out of my own way and a lot of the people that I've been over the years a lot of artists sort of feel like well my my chaos or my my the drug or the obsession or whatever the darkness the darkness drives me it's what leads me and if I if I work something out of home happy go luck I won't yeah it's and that isn't all part of my fight it's like it's like it's uh if anything it's like I can still access all the dark it doesn't go away the dark but how I like deal with them does and I'd rather translate what I'm going through onto paper in some sort of hopefully healthy capacity and to communicate as opposed to you know ending up in like locked in a room somewhere um with nothing to show for it you know except you know eviction papers you know um so uh I think I was going that but I do feel like it was important to like sort of make the point about doing creative work and being happy what while you're doing it it's like and really kind of because in a weird way I don't take any anybody here we got to be feel the same way but if you can't take responsibility for being born with whatever criteria you have for creativity or for the desire for you but you know that know the spark but you can take all the credit for how hard you work and to manifest it and it's like and anybody who follows their own views or their own art it's like I sort of feel like no one can take that away from you you know and in a weird way it's like it's an obligation like it's there's a responsibility and that's a thought to like honor it you know and I know that sounds that can sound kind of granola you know uh but I really do believe that it's sort of like you know maybe in a multi-verse that there's no purpose but I sort of feel like we're here and we have to give ourselves purpose and for me it's like it's telling stories and you know and hopefully touching people's lives so by influence Dave and retirement you know or David Mac or whomever it's like what's great is that they in turn have also touched others so it's like this ripple effect but I'm a big believer in the rising tide lifting all the votes you know um that was the one thing that I realized that like the jealousy and competition and sort of hoarding of talent over of ideas um you know comes with uh uh I mean I could see like sort of want to say hoarding ideas are like okay I I want to like it's not like hoarding it like if I came up with a turtle it's going yeah you want to do the turtle it's like you know I'm glad Kevin and Peter came up with the turtles and like and did what they did with it but it's like but in terms of technique and other things like that it's like uh you know whatever whatever invites people into the big tent you know the moral merit actually people have worked with anyone right I was just so last about the graduations with riders that you've had with the eggs and whether you know the different personalities of riders or different ways of working with the the effects your work on eggs you know yeah yeah um because I was so used to writing and drawing my own stuff and what's interesting is that once you you know once I started working in Marvel they they sort of did the assembly live thing okay you're you're penciling you're anything where you're your max. They're maximizing sort of the bandwidth that you can provide for them so that they can actually put into into like the comic. So, and I also realized that when I would write, I would kind of go even deeper into the work. Because when I did straight toasters, that really took everything out of me. And it's like, and I realized, okay, I'm not maybe a monthly guy, you know, coming up with ideas to be like, I would get really sort of obtuse and dark. And again, that's probably that linchy and aspect of it. But, but yeah, but working with different writers, my first, the first way I worked with this dud match, who was a hero of mine from all of the, you know, the Shang Chi plus all things that he did in the horror comic, the horror and the war and stuff. And he was always doing full scripts. And I realized that he was tasked with sort of breaking in the new kid and sort of a very thankless, you know, job. And, but I know a lot to, to do more than I could probably even admit, because he influenced me, but he was also at some point he started to be someone I pushed against because I realized I didn't want to be told everything that I had to be shown. It was like, if it's chasing, just say chasing, it's like, don't, yeah, you need to know the angle and, and all this other stuff. It's like it's a down shot and somebody's getting in the car and, you know, he's talking, you know, tied, tied up or whatever. It's like, I'm getting there. Let me, let me figure out cinematography, the pacing and everything else. And again, that's what when you talk about the collaboration. Certainly with Chris Claremont, Chris was just pretty much a plot like one, you know, one or two lines for plot and that really opened things up, especially the demon bear saga. Because what happened was that after I was on Moonlight for three years, I was pretty much done. I had that sort of midpoint epiphany of rebellion, where it's like, I'm going to do my own thing. And so if people look at, I think it was the more this issue, I forget which one is she 24, 23 somewhere in there, maybe earlier. The last 10 issues, I sort of just blew out all of the remnants of the Neo thing and started embracing much more of the fire aspects of the character. And I sort of felt like I'd gone as far as I could with the character. And then when I plotted, hit it, which sort of gets back to everything I was saying about. And hit it really to me was that Moonlight didn't really have to be in it. For me, it was about people who have anger, you know, and they can either choose to use that anger to make something beautiful. Or they can just carry on that anger and just this is the destruction and just basically devastate the world around them. And so that to me was like, there was no costume villain, it was just a guy who was dealing with the death of his father, you know. For me, that's what I sort of felt like, okay, that's what I want to do in comics. I kind of felt like, okay, comics to me also mean that I wanted to do something that has some kind of truth to it, you know, and it isn't just about, you know, spandex or muscles or whatever, you know. But when they asked me if I wanted to do the movie, I'm sorry, the X-Men, I had asked, you know, to get me let off Moonlight after 30 issues, I said, I do not want to do any regular series after this. I turned down the X-Men, partly because it was Marvel's flagship title. And if you're going to take it on, I'd end up driving into the ditch. I said, like, again, I wanted to try too many things. And if they were going to be, like, looming over my shoulder going, you can't do that. Like, I didn't, I didn't want to leave myself open to that. But I walked out in that office, Chris, I came up to me in the hallway and pitched the demon bear three issues thing. And I told, well, three issues, I can do plus. I was really into Hunter Thompson and Ralph Stedman. And it was like, it just felt, when he mentioned, it was going to be a surreal sort of dream thing, you know, with the demon bear. I was also heavy into animation. I mean, I started really getting into, like, text area, and when they, you know, when he said that, it was like, okay, I'm in. And we ended up just having such a great time that we stay together working for an entire run. So so much for my, you know, I don't want to do another series again. And then Frank is, you know, I mean, what can you say? I mean, working with Frank is Frank started with the full script for the first one. And when I met Frank, Frank and I would hang out by the office cop here, you know, I'd make copies of the pages I was doing. And we always, we got along great. And it was like, we were always sort of like supporting each other and, you know, he said, I love to work with you at some point. And, and at that time, I also started doing painted comics. I really kind of pitched myself. And moral had the epic magazine. And I saw how we're checking would bring in painted covers. And I was like, and again, I know that I mentioned early about competition. But, you know, there is something to be said for sort of having, you know, being inspired and wanting to like, I want to do that. Friendly competition. Absolutely. Yeah, it's not like, you know, want to, you know, put him in the river, you know, but, but yes, so they, I, they let me do, you know, they were pretty much all in on me doing the dazzler covers. And so I thought, okay, I'm doing painted covers, I'm doing painted covers on the Newton's and I'm doing more abstract work inside. And then when Frank proposed the graphic novel, okay, I should clarify. What became love and war with the graphic novel with the kingpan, the one that, you know, that was a sort of big goal is sort of character. That was going to be in the regular comic. And we, Frank and I were really being incredibly surreptitious because shooter had his rules about how he wanted things to be in, you know, story telling wise. And he didn't want, you know, he hated like diagonal panels or things jutting out of panels. He wanted very clear storytelling and no surprises. And when, when Frank and I were doing it, I realized I was just pushing the kingpan of turning them into basically a loony tunes character. And we were hide the pages in the bottom drawer of Ralph Machia, who's the editor of his office. And we thought, if we just play our cards right, we'll get the whole like issue done and then ink it, color it. And it will come out in what is the make ready form. The make ready was sort of everything except the cover. And it's what was passed around the office is like, this is the last chance to either kaybosh this, because if you, if you miss this, it's going out the door and it's going to be done. I've always wondered if there was someone who saw your kingpan was like, nah, that's way too much. But what happened was is that, because we would sort of bring people into like show people, you know, this and they're like, can you get away with this. And I remember sitting in the office with Ralph. And Chris Claremont was looking through the pages. And Shooter popped his head in and Chris went, Jim, have you seen these? And it was like, and it was just. You know, and Shooter looked at them, looked at me and he just went. And it's like, I, I thought, okay, I'm either fired or, you know, because especially since we were going behind his back, you know, he said, look, obviously, this is not going to happen. And he said, however, you know, you seem pretty committed to it. And the death of Captain Marvel by Jim Starlin had come out as one of the first graphic novels that was doing that did really well. And Shooter said, however, if you want to do this as a graphic novel and paint it or do whatever you want with it, you can't. It's like, and it won't quite be canon, but it'll be its own separate thing. And I was like being handed a gift. I talked to Frank about it and was like, great. Frank was, we were super excited because that was the big project. And Frank, she said, you know, while we're doing this big monstrosity, the 64 page thing, why don't we work on like an eight issue series of maybe a lecture, something like that sort of like just for bread and butter while we're putting all of our attention. Into 11 more. And of course, I said, I really want to do it, but I want to paint the insides as well. And I want to paint the covers. So there was no paint and rate at the time in comics at all. There was only, I think at the time, I think it was maybe $25 a page for the die sub. you know, the little remark with the coding on it. And I settled final there for that. And so, there was no, like I said, no color page rate. It was established. I just, I had to do this. Absolutely had to. So, that's how like, Dressasson came about. - It's incredible. - Yeah. - I'm not sure how we did it. - No, well, yeah, sorry, I'm blowered out of it. It's like, you know, this is boring. - Yep, this is boring, but some questions from the audience. But I'm not sure what all of them are. - I should just really ask that just one last bit ago. The last person that I, more than I mentioned, I worked with Alan Moore. - Yes. - And Alan Moore was, if you've heard any story about Alan and how he writes, it's all true. It's all true. And I mean, working with Frank and with Chris, I would read what Frank wrote and I would get really excited. And then my wheels would start spinning and I would bring in really eclectic things from like, whatever was being triggered or inspired by what he was writing. And so it became this collaborative thing. There was the writing and there was the art and then there was this third entity, which was the finished comment. But with Alan, Alan's work was literally like watching. It was like, everything was so precise and like clockwork that there was no way for me to sort of DEA from that. It's like a lot of somebody in a closet saying, you know, you want to play football, not yourself out, you know. It just, it was impossible to sort of do that sort of revisionist or hay work collaborating. I kind of, I was at the service of what Alan was writing. And I, you know, and I set a really high bar for big numbers and because I wanted to do things a very specific way and I kind of pigeonholed myself and locked myself in. But he was, you know, an amazing collaborator but very, very specific in terms of what he wants. So anyway, sorry, sorry, I just, I didn't want to leave that out. So, so I guess I can, I can mosey over to be a, and I apologize for my, my, my voice, anybody have any questions? - Hi there. - Hi. - Let's see how you're doing, kind of, what's your shape going? - Oh, yeah, I was just, say, real quickly. Now I said, beginning, but I wanted, I really want to thank you all for coming. I want to thank you all for inviting me here. It's lovely. Everybody on the net has been absolutely amazing and it's like, this festival, it's just spectacular. So you're, you know, I mean, I, I'm the one doing it. So, I'm, okay, my question is kind of go too crumbly. There's the way to, obviously we're breaking boundaries and really pushing the form with your work in the early '80s and really, that's interesting. By, say, find our sensibilities onto the comment page. Who do you see in '76, kind of taking those same kind of risks in the tune of these? Why, I'm really interested in it. What color side are you looking at? - Oh, this, this question, you know, go ahead, go ahead. - Me! - And, like, let's ask. Has anybody asked, like, be sure, I'm really kind of searching what you can do in the comments? - Yes, yes, yes, yes. - This thing, don't you? - Be sure. - Oh, yes, she's doing amazing. - So, ask yourself, do you, who do you see pushing the form? - This is, this is again, it's like, that's a great question and it's one that I haven't had an answer to every time I'm like sort of caught by myself going, "I wish I had an answer to that." Because, like, I'll be reading something and looking something and something about it. Remember, this person's work, if you ever ask that question again, because you're doing it great to service and what is happening is that it completely just, it just goes off the rails. I mean, I love, you know, I look at, like, like, in terms of just stylistic changes, artwork, I think Jeff DeKal is doing some amazing, sort of beautiful work. But in terms of the actual storytelling, I think, like, guys like Jim Monfood, like, I really adore his style and his brazenness. And, like, what Nick is doing to got it on the absolute Batman. It sort of reminds me a lot of some of the stuff that we were trying to deal with early on with, like, sort of pushing things out there. And, you know, from deviations to the characters, it's like, it's a version of what Bernie writes in and colludes to do with Batman's ears. You know, like, like, it would be, you know, like 12 inches and one, you know, three inches and other, like, little notes and another. But, he didn't have the entire line. So, I'm gonna have to give that more thought. It's like, and then I may answer, you know, but it's a great question and I don't, I feel like I forget one person and forget a tent, you know, and I don't, I'm doing too many people in this service. - So, we've got 50 minutes, that's nothing. So, maybe that's the drawing, but we can protect some questions while you draw. - Let's see if I can dump this again. So, anyway, what, what, I'm gonna, like, let me sort of suggest a character if there's anybody, you know, wants to offer a suggestion, perhaps? - Batman. - But I never saw that one coming. (audience laughs) - Just read. - I just, yeah, what a favorite character mind. It's like, I, I, I just, I just did one recently. It's good to say, I used to think that a bunch of covers were hiding in that rear shaft, and that was a blast, but I'm right now, I think I'm gonna just dive into a Batman, not because I don't want to do dread, but because I'm a little more comfortable with Batman. So, a little more familiar, I should say. So, I don't think you can see it. If we got the camera on there, okay. - There you go. - Can we take some questions? - Yeah, please, absolutely. - We got that. - Just to distract from where's the mind? - It's down there, it's fun. - Hi. - Hello. - That's someone on YouTube video, she told about, I mean, the great love of friend, other than they give 'em. - Oh, yes, absolutely. - Just wanted to say no to the boy Batman, and admit those guys. - I met Frank, as I said, at the, well, we met a bunch of parties back in New York when Marvel would have, you know, when freelancers would actually still get together and the offices were a very inviting place, you know, to go up to the quote, bullpen. Something again that I sort of, well, meant, is it has been lost. There was something really beautiful about going to the offices and just hanging out and hearing the production guys' different stories that they would tell. Or we, you know, seeing like Marie Severin, who was doing cutter sketches, you know, and she'd be chain-smoking and just like, with just this body sort of, you know, sense of humor. And everybody felt like the family. And it was that was the thing about it. It was a lot of, just a lot of fun. And I think that, like, lockdown affected a lot more than just, you know, the access. I think it affected a real sense of family that we all felt. But like I said, I would see Frank at the Compton machine, and then I was invited to one of the first new casers, I think it was called UCACC. And I was there with Archie Goodwin and got to meet God, I mean, I don't know if the world was there. Thinking was, but certainly David Davins was. And David and I had it all for many. Because Dave struck me in some respects as being, I don't want to say the most American, you know, because in terms of the style, but there was something that felt more, I don't want to say traditional, 'cause that sounds like it's a negative, it's not. His stuff was just absolutely amazing. But he was incredibly charming and funny. And we, you know, we just started talking about art and about, you know, and doing comics. And again, finding that like from one culture to another from the US to the UK, even though now it's all things we take for granted. Back then, it was so cool. sort of like, you know, there was this meeting of like, you know, hands across the water, kind of feeling of, that was just absolutely wonderful. But, you know, meeting like guys like Camp Kennedy and Rick McMahon and Kevin O'Neill. And, gee, it's so many amazing, amazing, you know, talented, and kind of friends, and Brian Talbett. And, just, good work. I mean, it just, you know, if anything, I'd just felt like the fraternity, sorority, the family of people who were also bitten by this bug of telling stories, that no matter where you were on the planet, it was like, if this was going to be my life, I could certainly do a lot worse. You know, that's what I've heard about life. But, yeah, and getting to know Dave even more, like Dave and I worked on a couple of other projects in Los Angeles together. This is like, had nothing to do with comics. But, we became really super friends, you know, not super friends, but, you know, but we became real good friends, good, artificial friends, or with, you know, AI, super intelligence, you know. But, yeah, and I haven't seen my while, I think he's, you know, when he was doing watchmen, and I was doing the electrosass and stuff, we, you know, we really sort of would see each other at San Diego. And also, we both did things together for a short-lived sort of digital comics company, named May 5. William Sharp was also part of that. Yeah, it was, you know, you never quite know where things are going to lead, you know, who you're going to be, and that, you know, you need somebody bump into somebody in the hallway, and then they sort of, you know, somehow become your best friend for a while, you know. Another question? - Hiya. - Hello. - It feels like you're teaching in Los Angeles lots of one, two-minute clips in documentary, the Bokers, like Robert, all he is. I don't know this finish. I don't know that you've probably been able to. - Not quite finished. (audience laughing) No, here's what I, like, again, it's a documentary on me. So, of course, they don't tell me anything. It's like, you know, I'm simply on a lead to no basis, and apparently, I don't need to know. (audience laughing) It's, I think that the push for it was, I think the producer, the director, you know, the crew that's doing it, wanted to get it possibly into some of the film festivals. And I think that, you know, that was kind of a pipe dream, and we're still trying to get other people. I mean, I want to get Frank in it. His Frank's been on tour, Frank Miller, with his own documentary, and also with his plie, his other biography. And other people, you know, we've gotten, I'd say it's probably about 85 to 90%. There's just a few other people who want to get into it, then we're going to probably shoot a little bit of work in Los Angeles and make a bit more in New York. But once they missed that window, we decided to slow, you know, at least this is how I'm, you know, probably need to know basis, like let them find out that we're going to, you know, hold off on it until we get all the people I want in it. 'Cause if it is going to be about my career, it's like there are definitely people I want, you know, I want future who have been, you know, amazing collaborators. 'Cause to me, it's not even really about me. It's about, it's about the meaning. It's like, 'cause I have to be honest, being up here, it's like, I'm going to be in the hotel and drawing. It's like, I love you all, and I appreciate you all. But I'm not wired for, you know, for entertainment. (audience laughing) Anyway. - So we probably got time for either one question with a long answer or two questions with two short answers. Somewhere over there. - Hi, what sort of advice did you give to a young person's A, who's planning on hiring to make it in a comic industry in the future? - Okay, there's a line from William Goldman. I think he was talking about film, like the film's world. And he said, nobody knows anything. And I think it's probably a good idea to go into it with that point of view. And what I mean by that is, is that I found it, when I first started out, I was trying to do certain things like to be accepted and have the style. And then along the way, you learn certain things, you try certain things, some things work, some things don't. But it's the, I wanna say slog, but it's not. 'Cause there are days, it is a slog. And there are other days when it's just like, you know, tripping the life fantastic, it's wonderful. But it is a marathon, you know, it's not a sprint. So for me, it's like, just if you just keep moving forward and building one brick in the wall at a time, and realizing that not all the answers come at once. That, you know, it's always a learning process. So there's no point in arrival, that's one thing. And when I say nobody knows anything, I realize that a lot of the prohibitions and demands I placed on myself, that I sort of also felt were placed on me by others in terms of expectations and whatnot. I can understand doing things for the client, but also in terms of anything that I did to myself, in terms of all you need to do it this way. It's like, in a way, the pressure doesn't really amount to anything except a lot of upset stomach and, you know, and your knife sweats. And I, you know, I think that to just dive in and just let the dialogue between what you're doing, you know, between yourself and the page or whatever. You know, be what it is, let it be fruitful. And like, and because one idea, like we'll lead to another, it's like, I think David Lynch, you know, talks about the catching the big fish, you know? It's like, well, but I look at like balloons. That's like, you know, like wandering through like a field. And it's like, you see these various ideas that are all balloons. And sooner or later, hopefully, you'll get enough balloons together where you achieve lift off. And, but giving yourself the freedom to sort of just follow through and take those steps to find out, you know, rather than placing demands on yourself, 'cause there are enough demands that are being placed on yourself. So I really, I realized that a lot of the mechanisms, I put it put on myself, I'm actually allowing a lot more laxity now. I'm kind of almost getting more, it's become more fun the older I've gotten. And I suppose in some respects, it might be a product of age, it might be a product of some of what, was it Picasso's and took him his whole life to draw like a child again. And I think what it means is like, it's like, there's just simply enjoy the doing of it. And the comfort of knowing that you're in, you're kind of in the driver's seat. As much as the work is also in the driver's seat, you're also just kind of, you know, letting it manifest itself. So that, you know, that might sound like a lot of hurrah, but to me, it's really more true. It's like just be assertive with, you know, and discipline, but also, you know, learn in some respects to kind of let yourself off the hook, you know, rather than lambasting yourself. Because I will say, most every artist I know, and writer I know, has the negative voice, the aggregation, the self criticism, this sort of, you know, it's like, it's all of that stuff is still in there, but at the same time, it's like, it's obfuscation, it's all designed to take you away from, you know, I take you away from the work, and also take you away from, you know, from the happiness that you end up doubting yourself. So, you're not, I'm not if you're trying to sound like like a self-help guru or anything else, but I'm just saying it's been a hard one for me to learn how to sort of allow myself to play more. And it's become an absolute major criteria right now to do so. So, I don't know if that answers your question or not. And in terms of avenues for exploration and our exposure, I mean, there are more avenues right now than there are than there have been. So, you don't have to really kind of go to the main companies, it's like the big two companies like they're used to be, you can put your stuff out there on your own. and connect with people. Because again, the drawing is one thing telling, like writing the board balloon's mugging, but I think we still want to be touched and connected. So there is that storytelling. And so if you're moving somebody, you're just doing the words and pictures of the combination of both. That's a gift to be able to, and we spoke saddled with that responsibility. - I think that might be all we have time for now. So I'm just gonna say thank you very much. Speaking inspirational, thank you. (audience applauding) - Thank you. - Thank you very much. I didn't even get to, I just yanked, so I didn't finish Batman, so I'll see you in a while. So, I could certainly take more question, but this is that's a time, I don't think I will defer. - I will take one more question. Right here, don't know where the mic's going. - I was going to ask about policy, do you know how to use something that you don't want to use for? - Yeah, I'm going to work with our Columbia, and you'll find yourself, you'll find one, and I'm just kind of struggle to see if any of you know what I'm talking about. - See, I'm sorry, say that last party one, so. - Well, whenever you're going to allow Columbia to find yourself there, there's a private screen, and then changing the style, you can either check in with them after that, and see if there's something there, no, actually we didn't, and unfortunately Alan, I had a very tumultuous, sort of, practice parting of the ways, I should say, you know. And I always thought it was very talented, I really don't, I think we just mutually decided to sort of leave each other alone, you know. I wish him well, you know, I think he's phenomenally talented, but I think I thought that what he's doing with some of the sort of flashar-esque, sort of demonic sort of cartoon thing, it's just, you know, it's such a cool stuff. So, but yeah, he definitely had, you know, being a clone is sort of like an uneasy thing, I mean, every clone that I met, I mean, there are people out there now, there's one artist who is doing a phenomenal job of like capturing the essence of John V. Sama's Conan stuff. He gets the name as Rob Dillator, if I'm not mistaken, really, really good. I mean, it's like, and I think I even mentioned to him that I saw his work maybe really sort of uncomfortable, because I thought, like, what if I hadn't even gone further all in on Neil Adams, you know? It's like, I sort of felt like I needed to find my own voice. And yet, it's not for me to prescribe to another artist, like if Rob is doing such phenomenal work. In a lot of ways, he's also like filling a void 'cause so many people love what John V. Sama did. And he's the nearest thing that we've got to John V. Sama, and it's still Rob's work, but it's sort of sort of veering through this other entity that has sort of pre-existed. And yet, it's an amalgamation. It's something brand new, and yet it's very reminiscent. And so I find myself at odds, 'cause I sort of feel like you really should be doing your own stuff. And yet, there's a part of me going like, oh my God, this is great, you know? It feels like John's back with us. And so it's certainly not for me to say, you know, what he should or shouldn't be doing. I just think that if he's enjoying himself and he's giving other people, you know, pleasure out of it in terms of the work he's doing, I think that's, you know, there's no wrong way to be, you know, that kind of successful in terms of what you want to say. 'Cause I think he really wants to pursue this. And it's like he should just absolutely, if he's committing to it, then, you know, that'll expressionally go with God, you know, do it. Boom, you know, which he's doing. So at some point or another, anybody who's a clone is gonna have to, like, you know, meet the devil at the crossroads as they say, you know, and decide what you want to do or are, but the idea of who you are as an artist, that's something also that never ends. So I don't know yet who I am, you know. - Okay, and on that note, I think that is a way of-- - Yeah, I think I'm sorry for. - I think I should apologize for talking with way too much. So thank you, Bill. (audience applauds) (audience applauds)