Episode 36 - Gary Hayman, Identity Clarity: A Recipe for Retention

Welcome to Talent Tidens, the podcast where we bring you entrepreneurs and leaders from the global staffing industry. I'm your host, Suki Soty. Now let's jump right on in and welcome today's Titan. Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of Talent Tidens. I'm super excited. I've got one of my favourite HR people with us today. Gary Heyman from a Deco Canada. Welcome Gary. Thank you Suki. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for joining us. So for those people that don't know you, just quickly want to tell everybody about who you are. Yeah, thank you. So I currently be Senior Director of HR at a Deco Canada. Collectively I've had over 20 years of HR experience working for organizations such as Walmart Canada and also in the home building construction industry. So good variety in terms of industries and experience that. Excellent. So what I love about your background and I really want to talk about this in a little bit more detail. The last two years you've been with a Deco staffing. Prior to that you were on the other side of the table. Right? So you were working with staffing business partners and what have you for it. So you were the client. Right? So now that you've been in this industry for like two years. What are some of your observations and actually I'm going to put you on the spot here. What are some of the misconceptions you had about staffing potentially before you actually joined the Deco? That's a great question. I think, you know, previously as you said being on the side of the table working with people such as yourself and other organizations, you know, trying to find that talent and understanding the challenges around talent and what comes within that. Being on this side of the table so to speak within the staffing industry, it's a complete reversal. And yet there are so many similarities from an HR practices, remain consistent, you know, from industry to industry in a lot of different ways. And yet our job really is to create opportunities for people to find work. So we're working to get them the jobs and the careers of their looking for. So it's sort of the commodity becomes talent versus on the other side, the commodity could be the industry that you're working in. So it's a very different game when you're working with people because the variable obviously the biggest variable I would say in the industry is talent. And so how do we separate ourselves and really, you know, put ourselves at the forefront for people to want to come to work with the Deco, both as an organization which we refer to as our colleagues. And also as an associate in terms of helping them find work. And so you're balancing out those business needs as well as the needs of people as well as other organization needs outside of the Deco. 100% right? Because, and I love the way you put it because when you're, for example, at Walmart, your focus solely, and correct me if I'm wrong, if focus solely is your internal hires, be it full-time, part-time, bit seasonal stuff, right? Attracting them and their wellbeing. You're in control, you know, right? Whereas now, you're, yes, you've got all of that for the internal Deco hires as you said your colleagues, but now you've got this whole workforce. Exactly. Also looking at you, right? So were there any misconceptions you had about the industry? And now you're like, oh. I think for me, I don't know if it's a misconception or just awareness to the size of the, you know, the temporary workforce and the size of an organization such as a Deco. I was actually speaking with somebody internally recently. And when I look at the comparable, so as I mentioned previously, we have our call-y-based who worked directly for a Deco, that could be a finance, that could be a HR, and different functions such as sales and so forth. It only represents just over 5% of our total workforce. Wow. Our mass majority, 95 or 90 to 95% are our associates working for other industries and helping them find work. And so when you put that into scale and understand kind of where we need to continue to drive our focus, well, we have a business model to operate. We have this large contingent workforce that we are helping and securing employment for. And our goal is retaining and growing that workforce. And that becomes the challenge. It's such a competitive market as we know. And so trying to define what separates a Deco from competitors, what's our value proposition that we offer to organizations? So it is this, you know, you ask about what's on this conceptions. I think it's just a grand scale of the world and in itself of the workforce. It's incredible to see how many people are looking for work. And it's also enlightening. I would say it's enlightening and rewarding to help them. Honestly, you know, somebody comes into one of our branches or reaches out to us and we're able to get them on the job within 24 or 48 hours. Get them work as they come in or what their new immigrants come into your country, you know, helping define that. So it's a very different industry and yet it's also very, very similar at the same time. Yeah. And now, you know, I know it's a cliche, but here's the thing. We literally impact people's lives. Exactly. Right. There's those individuals, unfortunately, who if they don't work, they don't earn, right? They don't get anything. If they don't get anything, they don't have a wage to take home to pay the mortgage, pay the gas bill, feed their kids, whatever it is, right? So yes, we're salespeople, right? We're a profit industry. Most companies are, right? But that's all great. But there's that human part of it, right? That you know, we can't lose sight of. I want to pivot a little bit. So you've been in with a deco in staffing for what, two years coming up to two years now? Actually, just have a two year anniversary. Oh, did you really? Oh, wow. That's great. God, time flies, right? Can you come in? Can you come in? Kind of like the tail and ish of COVID, right? So and last year, certain sectors, especially tech, it was an awful, right? Yes. In many ways worse than COVID. Yes. So some of the changes you've seen happen in the industry and recruiting overall. And what are you, what is your crystal ball say is going to happen in the next, you know, 2024, 2025? Yeah. There has, you know, when I joined the organizations, you mentioned it last year was a tough year coming off the tail end of COVID. There was so much change that happened during COVID that it's almost, you have to close a book on that time frame during lockdown and so forth, sort of see that recovery stage. And last year was, was continuing with recovery. And we're starting to see the COVID element not being a factor currently, but the current financial situations and the economy now driving some of those impact decisions in the organization. There were sectors that were, you know, greatly impacted. You talked about tech finance as another sector that was greatly impacted. And we're seeing the growth again is kind of in our light industrial areas. And we are by the workforce and those are those sectors are dependent upon people. And those are the ones that are continuing to grow, struggling more so in certain areas such as retail and I think retail is changed completely and will will be impacted for a little while. So in terms of, you know, it's recovery stage. We are seeing some definite growth within, you know, the mining industries, so forth, engineering, oil and gas, those kind of areas whereby the, you know, if you want to refer to this blue collar labor workforce is continuing to see the high demands and it's starting that road to recovery that we've seen in the previous years. It's going to take some time. I honestly think, you know, you talk about that crystal ball. I still think we're a few years out. We see a recovery, I think a lot of that will be factors within our own economy here in Canada and global economy. I think that recovery stage, you know, controlling inflation, getting cost back under control will be a huge component in terms of growth for many, many sectors. Right now I think a lot of the industries and companies are being very cautious, very cautious in terms of where they want to invest their money with the talent. And to be frank, this is actually something in Suki you can relate to this, something within our staffing industry that can actually be a good solution. Whether that is a temporary workforce contingent workforce, you know, something along those ways whereby the bigger companies don't take on that necessary cost burden, direct cost burden to bring them in and we can help them through those times of need, whether that is on a temporary basis or a full time basis. Yeah. And I totally agree with everything you just said there and it's funny as you were saying about how staffing the industry can help companies with managing their costs. without compromising their business. 'Cause sometimes, right? We know companies go so lean, right? And that has other knock on effect, but you're right. And is that something, I'm gonna get on putting you on the spot here in higher college, but is that something now that you're in the industry, you're more aware of how that, you know, I'm not saying you didn't quite think about it. Previously, but do you think the fact that now, you're in the industry, you're like, oh my God, this, if I'd known this the way I know it now, back then, it would have made my life so much easier. - It's an interesting observation question, because in previous organizations that I've worked for, it's specific to the sector, right? So if we look at economy impact naturally, where are things going, what is happening, trends in the world, you know, where are people investing so on and so forth, but we're hyper focused within that sector. So over our chain economy, but sector. I mean, in staffing industry, the sectors are this, like they're just eight percent. And so when you're working with organizations from literally financing to oil and gas, and everything in between, each one of those has his own impact areas within the economy. And so awareness to not only over arching financial restrictions or challenges that we're all facing, but within those sectors specific, and how do we help or tailor the needs to support them while at the same time, you know, looking at our own business group. So where should we be looking to grow our adeco business? What sectors are up and coming? You talked about tech area, is it a wise idea to go after tech right now? It's a great question, you know, healthcare. A lot of demand for healthcare that we're seeing right now and so getting into that space, you know, looking to grow within the healthcare sector. And tailoring our needs in terms of, you know, the agility and ability to kind of pivot where we need to go. What sectors are kind of an holding pattern? What are growth and what sectors are declining? And so when I think coming into the staffing industry, the general awareness across all businesses, the as a key area of understanding. And that's something that I honestly would not have paid as much attention to in the past. And so now it really is about, you know, being very aware as a country in terms of we're trying and globally where things are. There you go, right? It's now thinking of it as a country. That's right. Right? And you're right because adeco, and a number of agencies, whether they're the size of adeco or a small private, with technology and what have you, they're still recruit, they, you know, they have the ability, let me put it that way, to recruit across Canada. They may not have bricks and water in each location, right? But you're right, it's thinking about us collectively, the royal we, right? Yes. The country, rather than, as you said, based on the industry. I wonder, this gives us a really good segue into my next question. So you joined tail end of COVID and you all that chaos, and we were just beginning to, we're coming out with just beginning to say, okay, this is not normal, but okay, this is how, and then she goes like, no, we had the massive hike, right? So there was the year of massive hike for everybody, again, especially tail, tons and tons of hiring and then, and then it kind of went like that. What have you done in your role as head of HR? What are some of the things you are doing internally within a deco to help some of your leaders grow, right? So when I say leaders, I'm not necessarily talking C-suite executive, I'm talking, you know, that succession plan, right? That branch manager who has huge potential. What are some of the things that you've implemented and found of work? I would say this couple of things and it all starts with, I'll get to your answer, but I'll go a little bit of a detour to get there. You have to do in an organization and the deco is no different, it really helps define the culture, right? What is our culture? Who are we? What's our employee value proposition that we offer? What different shapes as why did I want to work for deco? And so we have spent as a global organization, the last, better part of almost a year, looking at our values as a company. And we're actually just about to release that internally in terms of our new values defined by our colleagues, not defined by C-suite, not defined by anyone else, but really by our colleagues. That is the core because if you can define who you are and what it means to work for an organization such as a deco, that becomes the platform to grow from. Because if you have an undefined area of culture or whether it's culture is just words on a wall and it's not lived, then I think all those other pieces around succession, finding growth, development are at high risk because you haven't really defined yourself as an organization. So number one, find that culture. Number two, always look at your talent, hire the right talent. So we have spent, we spent good part of 2023, hyper focus on hiring the right people. There's always a point in time and there was a point in time whereby turnover is high within that short segmentation. So unfortunately, you get into a bit of a track whereby you just need somebody, right? Finding somebody. Danger, never do that, never settle. And so working with our leaders and managers throughout the organization, from branch managers through to the executives to define what that recruiting process needs to look like. How do we ensure that we're bringing the right people to the organization? So selection. Next becomes retention. How do you keep them? How do you grow them? So another key area that we are, we invested in and are still investing in this year is really the onboarding process. Bring the people into your company. We find the right person if you fail to bring them in, well, then you might as well go back to square one. And so bring them in, integrate them into your business. And the onboarding process is not just a jar orientation. But that part bothers me to a degree because that's really just kind of check plus. And you have to go well. But is it not what people think onboarding is, right? They're just like, okay, here's how you're going to get paid. That's right. That's not what you're allowed to do. Here's what you're not allowed to do. This is really interesting because yesterday I was at one of my coaching clients site and this is exactly what we're working on for them at the moment. They're onboarding for all their hires and I'm helping them with that. And that was literally what their plan was. And I was like, no, that's just basic. That's a check list. Now give me your onboarding. They're like, that's really weird. That is. That's very real. I need to put it this way. I think the onboarding process is literally as we talked about. What are the fundamentals? Yep. I made all those key things that you talked about, my equipment, myself, all those things, but then integration into the business. There's a piece here where you integrate into the role. Oh, I love that. And it's almost like I use the example of relay rates. You have the baton and you bring them into your company. And so the orientation onboarding piece occurs and it can occur over a period of time. But you have that baton and then as you pass them into the business, the integration to the business. If you think about a relay race, that overlaps with a run. And they pass the baton and they run together. And then the next run goes. That's how we need to start thinking about bringing our people up. Hold their hands, bring them in, integrate them, into their role, into the business sector, work with, maintain that business relationship until it's firmly established and let them run. And then the key points from there is the check-ins. How do we ensure we check in? And I'll share with you, Suki. We have had that focus for 2023. And it's incredible. The results. Our retention is at-- in fact, they just reported it for February this week. We have established another record for retention in a debt group. And that has been a steady growth improvement. Our turnover, where it was high in early stages six months, first year-- Yeah, people don't like change. Oh. And so now retention has grown. Voluntary turnover has absolutely reduced. And so we maintain that workforce. But that comes back to your question. How do you grow leaders? And so establishing that, bringing them in. And then creating the career pathways. You hire the right people. You spend that time to develop them. You bring them in in terms of intimacy model. You share them through things such as traditional HR, succession by talent reviews, the openness to really share talent across the business. That is key. And we've seen some great moves where people have moved cross-function from operational roles into marketing. And we had one recently gained from, in terms of working within our field, in terms of placement, moving into sales. And so there is this piece here whereby we're looking at it organically that way. And then the next thing that I think [BLANK_AUDIO] makes us unique in Adekko is we are part of a larger group here. So we have a Deco General Staffing, which I work for, then we have the Adekko Group. And that's comprised of LHH, a codeus with this ACCA, a codeus, and then Adekko. And so we are now seeing cross-blogging, which is awesome. And so being an organization such as RFS, and the complexities and abilities to navigate, the opportunities are endless. And so if you open those doors, you empower the people, you take that ability for somebody to learn, equip them with the knowledge, and then reward and recognize. That I think is the key to our success. And we're just at that beginning stage now. And I honestly feel as we've seen that retention growth, and we'll see the same thing growth within our leadership capacity. Absolutely. And I've had the privilege of actually seeing that, right? Being one of your business partners. It's really interesting because as you were talking about change, and I said, a lot of people don't like change. I see companies, and I'm sure I've made the same mistake at some stage, right? Where it's like, no, this is how we are changing. Get with the program, right? Because we're trying to focus, because, look, if the ship is thinking, right? Or the ship will think if we don't do something as much as, I don't want to upset you, and you love doing this this way, the collective royal we got to pivot. That's right. And I think the mistakes companies make is they don't, and I want to be clear, we don't always have a luxury of time. That's right. Right? And giving people an opportunity to adapt, right? Because a lot of us, employees sit in a place of fear. Oh my God, all of these changes, oh my God, all these changes. I'm going to lose my job. Yes. Right? And that fear, that fear kicks in, right? So I think one of the things we need to be mindful is giving people, I'm going to use it loosely, a moment. Right? And that also comes down to communication. But ultimately, if people don't want to get with the program, and they don't want to go where the business is going, then as harsh as this sounds, then you come to a crossroads because the decisions got to be made. That's right. That's right. Right? The decisions got to be made. And for those listening to this, who maybe are in that position where their company is evolving and then what have you, maybe this is an opportunity to just sit and say, what is it that I'm fearful of happening here? Yes. Right? And just taking that moment and communicating that. That word, and sorry, to stop you. It's the communication. Yeah. And I'm going to come back to that. I'm going to let you finish. But there's a key word there is the ability to communicate, safety around communication. Right? The safety around talking, opening, about change. But I'll come back to allowing you to kind of finish with that. Yeah. So that's where I was going, because if it's fear, right? Fear of losing your job. I'm just making that as the example. Here's the thing. If you don't get with the program, you are going to lose your job. Because you're at, you're at, you know, the path's a split. It's just a question of when, not if, right? Whereas sitting with it and saying, I go, what am I so fearful about? Right? How am I contributing to this fear? Right? Because I'm, I, I, you know, I'm definitely, there's two sides. There is what the company, what your boss is doing. And then it's how you're contributing to a situation. That's just, in, there's two sides to every coin, right? That's right. And it's like, well, what do I want? And instead of just being a bystander, or I hate to say it, but sitting there playing victim. Yes. Right? Because that does nobody any good. And that's where, and I love the, the fact that you use the word safety, right? So, and when I'm talking safety, I'm not talking physical safety. No, no, no, mental psychological safety, psychological safety. Yeah, so what were you going to say when it, the, around the communication piece? Now, this is a passion area for me personally. And one of the things that I've seen within a debt-goat blockchain that has honestly led to a not only a higher business growth in terms of business results, but a higher, I would say even higher productivity, higher collaboration, higher retention, almost key pieces that come into play for success is transparent communication. You know, being open and honest, you know, painting a picture in terms of what does it look like? Change is inevitable. I mean, there's so much cliche around that. I remember a way back in my time with Walmart, we went through an organization transformation and there was significance and large. And I even at time didn't understand why we're doing this because we were leading in the sector, right? We're growing. And so, you know, what is causing this change and why we're doing this now? And essentially what it was down to is, is the ability to forecast where the world is going and where the economy is going, where retail is going in advance of being. And so getting ahead of the curve. And what it taught me from that point is change has to be continued. Businesses are evolving. Businesses continue to grow. And to be frank, I think what happens today is a great example. You stop that evolution of change of growth. You have run risk of up, becoming obsolete. And you lose the competitive nature, so agility and ability. So communication, I think there's number one, transparent communication. How are we performing? What's the headwinds that we're facing? What are the winds that are growing on? What are we heading as a company? And if you can paint that picture and create a safety point of communication, which is not running, it's directional. You lead through that journey. You talk about the direction. And as you said earlier, each person is different. How they respond to that, there's others that are adhering along, they're great, they're happy, there are others that are skeptical, there's something that are fearful. And so the ability to create safety as a leader, as a manager, as a supervisor in your teams, and as a peer to peer, and being able to create a culture where it's safe to ask questions, there's no one to retribution around what does that look like. And I think when you get that help, that in fact, I was smiling because we are going through an HR transformation at a depth. Amazing. And we are excited because what we're doing is bringing our collected HR teams across the depth of group here together. And that requires change. It requires how we operate is going to shift. The rules we have are going to shift. The ability to navigate through that. And so it's about creating that open conversation and people are, some people are nervous, some people are asking the questions. Sometimes it's about that individual self-dead. And that's okay as well. And ultimately, our goal is to bring people along with you. Be part of this group. Be part of this change. Secrecy is high risk. Yep. You don't share, you just change, people don't understand why they don't get the buy-in or they get nervous or they exit themselves, they make the decision. But if you can paint that picture and transparency all throughout, and somebody then says, and I think it's important for that reflection. Very important. And so that's why we need to be part of this change. Honestly, this is when you have talent, great talent, good talent, and they just handed their notes. What went wrong? Something has gone wrong because that journey for them to make that decision, it's not quick. That journey for them to either make decisions step away from the workforce is not easy or to change into a new job and interview and get the opportunity. So that takes time. And so when it's the point of, you know, here's my resignation and your caught off guard. But there is a leader really caught off guard, they ignore the signals. That's the part that frustrates me because there are pieces in there. Do you know your people? Do you have that relationship? That safe relationship? Are you noticing change? And the virtual workforce is really forced us to become very observant. Yep. Face to face. You see demeanor change, Tom. You know, there's something about, hey, I notice something seems to be slightly on, but you come on video. It's smart. Right? You don't really know what's going on. You know, behind the scenes. So the virtual workforce has put a lot of challenge into that check-in. So that's where the communication and all those key things are hyper important. And so what I say, what frustrates me is because there has been things likely along the way. And for some reason, you need to not pay attention. You've not checked in. You've dropped the ball somewhere. And I think, you know, when you finally talk to somebody while you leave, there's a great likelihood it's for something that we could have helped and supported with. Right? And so you lose talent. Talent is the biggest commodity. It's been a cliché forever. It is more so now than ever. Right? Find the right people, keep them, hold them, grow. I mean, it's a simplistic model. And so, you know, there's going to be, there's going to be as much as we can do all the assessments on the planet. That's right. Ultimately it's people, right? So I think there's the other part of it. And that's a sometimes we hire people accept jobs in good faith based on the right. So, you know, I always say we have the world's most unreliable product people free will. We change our mind. Circumstances change. Fear gets in the way. Or, you know, suddenly your spouse is, it's been told they're going to be lose their jobs. So now you're fearful in your, you know, and what have you. And that happens, right? That's just, yeah, that's, that that is just reality, right? But you're right. It's retaining that talent and, and, and bringing in, again, cliché, some HR best practices. Honestly, a lot of them are outdated, right? So what I love working with you is, it's just you're willing to look at things differently. Because ultimately I go back to it's a profit making business, right? So HR has the privilege or disadvantage depending on what the topic's going to be, but to sit in that place because ultimately you have to look after the welfare of the people. That's right. Right? Make sure the right talent is coming in sector, sector, but you also have to look after the business needs because if, if you're spending more than you're making the business is losing money, right? So it's that, it's that business need. Yes. I think there's there's always pressure for operational efficiencies, right? This is kind of what you're talking about is, you know, how do you balance productivity, efficiency, and margin, and a profitable driver's, all those key things with with the people. And so, you know, ensure you have the right size for your organization. You got to be careful where you're investing in what areas or what sectors are you investing within your own business. And ensure, you know, because we can be responsive, especially in the staffing industry, you can be very, you can see a huge change of take. But is that a stability that's going to pull through the year, right? Because you're going to have some volatility within some of the businesses that we support. And so, you know, really having that forecast and ability to sort of look at where it's where do we need talent, what areas we want to invest in, holding those levers, Jeff, right, in terms of being there. But we are a business and we can never, we can never lose sight of that. And so I think there's this piece here where, you know, we had to write size our business last year at times. And we're in a great spot right now at Gilburn, a real sweet spot whereby, you know, we have the right people, right, it's the whole thing, right people, right time, right skills. Yeah. Simple as to get that. But we're in a good spot today whereby you've got to be able to continue to evaluate that workforce. And attrition will take care of some things. I always say whenever if somebody leaves the organization or, you know, if we had to make the really hard decision to let somebody go, the opportunity to reassess your business needs presents itself. Don't be so quick just to replace that same role because as we look at our areas within any business is where is the investment coming. And so this person leaves, you may actually want to hire over here, right. And so that ability to look so, so you got to get away from kind of that cookie cutter day in day mentality of this equals this. It doesn't, right. And that's the biggest thing that I've seen in terms of. No, I'm thinking back to, as you know, unfortunately, Dave and our team passed away last year. Unexpected. And he'd been with us 12 years. And my first reaction when it came back to the business was, okay, we've got to find somebody as good as Dave, right. That was my first reaction. We need somebody. But then we paused to a point now, a horrible way to get that opportunity. But we looked at him, we said, okay, now's here's a chance to just, is this how we still want to do this? Correct. And we still going to, and we decided not to, we use that opportunity. I've got it. That's a horrible, I understand. Yeah. Yeah. We use that situation, right. To look at it and say, okay, well, no, because now we've got the US, these plans here, we got the training site here. And we actually chose not to replace Dave in the like, like, wrong smart move, right. Yeah, you have to test it. And maybe the answer is three plays equal, but you have to pause. You have to pause because often managers, leaders, supervisors, they only can see within their own realm of control. And as HR, we see organizational, right, as across the organization, as a leadership team, we should be looking collectively across the organization in terms of areas of health, sectors, or performing areas of investment. And so it's about that education. And the hard part is the manager of the person that life is going to feel like I need that person. I need to hire. And so communicating in terms of gain, transparent communication about needs of business versus needs of individual. It's hard, but it is a common, it's a piece that you have to do. And I think failure to do so just, you know, continues to put your organization out of sync, right? Yeah, what I would say is yes, you may replace light for light, but you've made a conscious, intentional decision to replace light for light. Our knee jerk reacting is, oh my god, need a manager. I need a salesperson. I need a recruiter. Oh my god. Oh my god. Right. And we're panicking because we're like, oh my god, there's a void now. There's a void now. And I'm going to have to cover that void or someone else is going to have to cover that void. I know we're going well over what we intended and we could keep going. And I'm just conscious of time. Any final thoughts, anything else that you would like to share on the topic or anything generally? I think, you know, just I think it's kind of a summary or a bit of a wrap up. Yes. You know, from HR perspective is, no your business. You know, we've talked to you in the past. There are HR heat. It's like conscious to say that they're really trying to meet for compliance. Right? There are HR aspects to that. But as a true HR partner to the business, know your business intimately. Right? Understand what it takes to make that business successful. We're not there to police. Right? That's not our job. Right? Our job is to ensure that we stay safe and that we remain compliant. But we're not there to police. We are there to enable and to partner with the business. And so take the time or learn your business. Understand the pain points. Understand the successes. That is really key. Know the overarching and common. It's the forecast of the future. Yeah, if you stay operating just within your four walls as it is today, you're going to hit something pretty hard one day because you're not looking ahead outside of your own business. So, you know, continue to look ahead. And I think that, you know, the growth within the sampling industry, there's always need for talent. Canada has one of the highest immigration rates globally, but not the highest. And so there's a great opportunity to help people. You know, this is the best part about this job. And you called out this earlier. We are really helping people. And times changing their lives, you know, giving them the opportunity. opportunity for income and employment watching them grow. And so take pride in that. Don't look at people simply, you know, numbers that are need, you know, understand that. And then the last thing I would say is, you know, really button down your own house in terms of your culture and your people. Take the time, just as you said, reassets, hire the right people, hold out until you find them, grow them, teach them, empower them, let them grow. And when you see that, you will have this growth as like a plant or a tree, right? You will start to see this just grow. And I think it's not a hard recipe, but sometimes we get so caught up within the moment that we have blinders on. And so take that step back to always continue to reassess it. The only piece I agree, everything he said, the only piece I would add is there's no need to do 11 interviews over 11 weeks, right? So let's get that bidding, right? No need for that. You know, if you feel there's three stakeholders for arguments, say, right, maybe do a panel, maybe do three back to back, but don't keep the candidate hanging and then wonder why you lost the candidate. Right? Wonder why you lost the candidate. Hello, 11 interviews. But we were going to make enough, oh, we should have made it. 10 weeks ago. You have to say three months ago. Yeah, no, you have the right people in the range of decisions, right? And I believe assessment and there's skill assessment, you know, in terms of psychological assessments, not final. Those things have their purpose and tools. But when you have a key role, you know, create assessments for that role. If you got a branch manager, you're hired. Do they understand the job? You know, having a goal, seeing branch spend some time in there. If you'd never been a recruiter, you know, what does that look like? Because conceptually, I think I could do it. And the reality is maybe I can't or I don't want to. Yeah. So, you know, what does that need to look like? And that gives that person a taste of what the real world is, right? And so don't sugarcoat the world, expose them to the realities and make those decisions, right? People in the group. Because they're going to find the reality the day they will be. Exactly. Exactly. Right. It's crazy because people think that our industry is so easy. What do you mean? I need a job. I'm a decent employee. Oh my god. When our life be show, we're going to be easy. We have no business actually. We're going to be retired by now. It's true, right? But it is. It's a great industry. Listen Gary, thank you. It's ever so much for your time. I know we've gone over, but this has been amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you, Sophie. It's been a real pleasure. Take care. Thank you for listening to the episode of Talent Tidens, bought to you by Recruitment Professional Forum, where they're building a grassroots community for professionals and leaders in the recruitment industry to collaborate, advocate and advance the profession. If you liked or inspired by what you heard, make sure to follow, subscribe and even leave a review. 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