Episode 35: "Know Your Why" with Matt Hickman, Investment Principal at Plains Ventures

(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Walk on Maintaining podcast. We discuss topics from walk on stories and what it means to have a walk on mentality, to entrepreneurship, to business, to fitness, mental health, and more. I'm your host, Jackson Mitchell, founder of Walk on Maintaining Health, and I created this podcast positively in fact listeners through sharing inspirational stories and other talk about content. If you enjoyed the show, please share it with the friend. The goal is to positively impact as many people as possible. Thanks for tuning in. - Hello everybody, this is your host, Jackson Mitchell, and we are back with another episode of the Walk on Maintaining podcast. This week in the studio, we've got the man himself, Mr. Matt Hickman, Matt, I appreciate you joining me. - And I'm very grateful to be here. This is long overdue. I appreciate your time. - Absolutely, man. Just to give the audience a little bit of background and context. So Matt and I connected a few years ago, we talked about recording an episode, but life just did the thing that life does. And it's funny because as we were chatting here recently about re-recording, it seems like this is an even better time to do an episode. So super excited that now is when we're getting the opportunity to do this. - Absolutely. - So Matt, let's give the audience a little background information on you. Where are you from? What is your sports background? Just to give the people an idea of who is Matt Hickman? - Yeah, absolutely. So I am from just outside of Oklahoma City, a suburb of there. My family's actually been on the land that I grew up on since the late 1800s, right? And so unique situation really blessed to be there. It's a property with a bunch of houses on it. It's all family. And so grew up in Oklahoma, you know, in a farming range situation like Godfiring folks, church on Sundays, family being one of the most important things in your life, right? And then sports, it was like God family sports, right? And so grew up playing a little bit of everything my parents were fantastic in the fact that, I think I heard a lot of times that if you're gonna do something, you can do whatever you want, but you better be great at it. You're gonna do it at 100%, right? And so got to play a lot of different sports, just because they were so supportive. As I grew up, that trended more towards football, wrestling, baseball. And so that's really where I grew up, how I grew up, and the things that I did as far as sports. - Now, you know, I'm from Texas and moved to Texas and I was 10 and Texas High School football is, like you just said, I mean, it might as well be a religion. So was football on Oklahoma super competitive? I know I've heard of schools like Janks and they're leaving my mind now, but I know there are some real powerhouses in Oklahoma, but would you say it was a very competitive football environment? - You know, the competitor in me and the Oklahoma versus Texas rivalry wants to say, of course, it was just as competitive as Texas, you know? - Right. - And I think if you hit just the right few small towns, the whole town shut down for a Friday night game, but I wouldn't say it's the same level as Texas. I would love for it to be and that is hard for me to say, but it is, it's a competitive environment, you know? And I'm sure since I was right in the middle of it, I thought it was, you know, the pinnacle, right? - Right. - But I do think, right, I know a lot of players that went on to play great schools, to do big things, to play in the NFL, et cetera. And so, well, it's probably not the caliber of high football that you were playing, I would say that it was big, our top division is 6A, right? - Okay. - Top division football. We were competing with the jinxes, the unions, the awasos that you know. And so, yeah, it was as competitive as Oklahoma football is going to be, that's where I was playing. - Okay. Now, when you talk about how grown up it was, do whatever you want to do, but you're going to be great at it, give 100%. Did you always have the dream of going to play college football, or was that something that kind of came onto your radar a little bit later in your development? - So, I wish I could give myself the credit to think that I wanted to play college football. I knew I wanted to play NFL football. (laughing) - No, no, no. - Made the link when I was little bitty, you know, well, I have to play college first, right? But as I grew older, it was absolutely. I knew I wanted to play professional, right? Thought I wanted to play professional sports. Whether that, I can't say that for sure, until late in my high school experience, I knew it was football. I loved baseball, I loved wrestling. And so, you know, the dream was always to be a pro athlete and started to trend towards football. And so that meant, okay, let's start to get serious about this college thing and how to make that happen. - Okay, so then, you know, my journey was, had a couple scholarship offers, but wasn't super highly recruited, and that led me to decide, okay, I wanna play this specific caliber of football at the next level. So I'm gonna go walk on at SMU because that fit the criteria of where I wanted to go. Big time, great education, et cetera. You know, I had a D1 AA, I had Air Force, but it just wasn't right what I felt like was the right fit. So for you, when it came to recruitment and having opportunities, what was the, what was it like when it was time for you to decide where you wanted to go? - You know, Jackson, that's a great question. And I would say, our experiences are pretty similar. And I had opportunities at smaller schools and having Air Force offer, but I had opportunities at smaller schools. And what do you call it, close-mindedness, lack of foresight, doesn't matter. I was, I thought, you know what, I'm only playing big school ball. - Right, right. - I kind of ignored those, wasn't interested. But as the time got closer, it wasn't gonna be a scholarship opportunity at a Division I school. And so I looked up and my mom's an Oklahoma State cowboy and she's actually her and her twin sister were at the time, the only two people in my family to have graduated from college. - Right. - That's the exposure that I had to, any sort of college experience was Oklahoma State. And so grew up a fan, loved the Cowboys, still a fan of them not playing TU. (laughing) They, that was an opportunity to walk on. And then the University of Tulsa. And frankly, I did not know a lot about TU. I knew, so I started doing my research, figured out, hey, this is a really good education. You know, you know, with SMU and TU, having a little bit of rivalry. - Yeah. - That they're both fantastic schools. So I decided, hey, look, if I'm gonna be a walk on, the NFL is a whole lot less likely, right? - Right. - So I chose the education at TU, similar as far as academic scholarships, that it was gonna come out to be, you know, about the same cost to go to school. - Right. - That was kind of the recruitment process. I knew, hey, I wanna play big school ball. And it came to, you know, probably with some wisdom from outside folks that education is gonna be important. And so TU is, is wearing an upset. - Now, you know, you and I talk about this a little bit, but I would be curious, you know, I send my film everywhere. And SMU said, hey, we don't have a scholarship, but we'd love to have you come play. You told me some stories that I'm sure we'll get into later around different experiences with coaches and your likelihood of playing. But when it came to actually just walking on and getting the opportunity, was it a preferred walk on situation? It was like, you showed up on campus for class and they had a poster that said, come try out and you decided to go do it. Like, what did it look like for you? - So, and I'm really glad you asked that. So we had junior year high school at Spring Ball. I'm sure the same as you all did. I, one of the TU coaches came by, coach Roundtree, and coach Trees, an amazing guy still stay in touch with him, just high quality individual. But he left me a bunch of materials. His email was contact, hey, we're interested in talking. And at the time, I can say, I didn't know much about TU. It's tight, I had a little male basket at the house that I put stuff in. So I just threw it in there, one paying attention to it. It hadn't really thought anything of it. And then later on, actually ended up years later, I found that original little envelope that he gave me with some information. And so that was kind of crazy now that I know coach Trees well. - Right. - But all that to say, there was some recruitment, there was a preferred, I was a preferred walk on. And so there wasn't any promise of, hey, come be the starter, we just don't have a scholarship. But it was, we really like you, we think your player, we'd appreciate you coming to Fall Camp and being a part of the team. - Okay, awesome. And so when you arrived on campus and really just throughout the duration of your career, what was that experience like for you? Because I think when I, as I talked to other walk-ons and just people who have played sports, talk about the fact that when you're the walk-on, you're kind of the tackling dummy. And when you're a freshman in general, you should really have the mentality of like, I'll do literally anything. Honestly, probably throughout the duration of your career when you're playing a team sport, you should have that mentality, but especially freshmen walk on. There should not be a job that you think you're above. So for you, I mean, where you just the tackling dummy, and how did you set yourself apart from peers at that time? - I think you're exactly right. As a freshman, there's an elite few folks as a freshman who aren't tackling dummy, especially as a walk on. Then you couldn't be more correct with, that should be your mentality, your whole career, right? Like, I'll do whatever it takes for the team to win. But specifically, for my experience in you alluded to, we'd kind of talked about some stories, but it was first fall camp. And one of the defensive coaches, we'd just finished a second practice of a two a day, and he called the walk on's over and said, "Hey, look guys, we don't really need you." We can go get somebody else to go be a tackling dummy and just stand in a spot. And so you need to show up every day and perform, right? You need to be the best tackling dummy you can be. Because if not, you won't be here next week. And so that was definitely a strong motivator for all the guys standing there of, hey, this is my role and this is my job, and I better be good at it, because if I'm not, I'll be back in on my locker. - Right. And when it came to, a, obviously that experience, I feel like put the chip on your shoulder. Chip probably already exists, but that certainly amplifies it. But for you specifically coming on a campus, did you have any specific goals around like, I wanna get on the field by this point in time, or I wanna finish my career as a captain, or anything of that nature, or you like, I'm here and I'm gonna try my best every day, but I have zero expectation of that anything comes of it other than I'm running out of the tunnel potentially. - You know, I probably should have had a goal like that. (laughing) By year three, I wanna be in this position and be doing these things. I think I was more of the ladder of what you just talked about, showing up and knowing that I need to go to work every day because if I don't, I know for sure, the outcomes that I want aren't gonna happen. And, you know, to the credit of the team that I was on, there were some really good football players playing ahead of me. And so I don't think I came in with the illusion of, you know, I didn't have the confidence of, I'll get here, I'll be the walk on. And, you know, next year I'm taking this guy's spot. I think it was more, you know, show up every day, go to work because I know if I don't, there's no chance of any. - Right. Now, I would love to just get into your career and some of the ups and downs. I think we probably share some similarities into our kind of path, just the bit that I know about it. But I think, you know, I think back to my journey, I think about, you know, after my freshman year, I was pretty beat down. And there were definitely moments where I came really close to saying, I don't know if the college football thing is for me. I'm just gonna focus on my education, maybe transfer somewhere that the tuition's not as high. You have those thoughts creep in. And I mean, I'm so thankful that I didn't, because obviously everything turned out a way that I probably never could have imagined to your point that it would. But for you, you know, when you were a freshman, what were some of your challenges? And how did you kind of rise above the adversity? And just throughout the rest of your career, as well, what were things that you faced? And how did you stay the course, you know, on track to achieving your goals? - Yeah, so another great question. As a freshman, I, we'll start with fall semester. So I came in, you know, you're working hard in the football field. We talked about the first fall camp, but then I did what I think weighed too many freshmen do just in the classroom, which is, hey, I'm in college and nobody's making me study and I can do what I want. And I ended, I first semester with a GPA that started with a zero. - Wow. - And so my dad, his credit, and the, you know, I had some academic scholarship, I had some different scholarships, but my parents were paying for the remaining portion of my education. And so, you know, I talked about my mom going to college, but she's a school teacher and my dad's a businessman and he didn't go to college and everything that we had was because he earned it, right? - Right. - He had the right to call me at the end of that first semester and say, you're there going to get your stuff together or you're not going to be doing this anymore. Because it's not paid for you to fail. And so that was really the first dose of reality of, hey, take your medicine, get back to it and you're going to have to make this work. And so I was fortunate enough to get some really strong classmates and really strong professors. And I ended that next spring, so my freshman spring with a 40, I'll try to boost that up. But in the meantime, that freshman spring spring ball comes around, you know, I'm thinking, hey, classroom stuff's going great. Spring ball's here, you know, you do the off season winter workouts, you're feeling good. We finished spring ball that I thought went, pretty well for a freshman walk on. - Right. - And did you register that first year? - I did, yeah. - Okay, just make sure. - And so I was registered freshman and I come into my coach's office and they did their credit, they did a review with everybody in the spring ball. And my linebacker coach is sitting there and he just looks at me and says, hey, hey, you know, you're never going to play here. And so I'm happy to help you transfer. I'll help you get to wherever you need to go. But this isn't a situation for you. And so that hit like a ton of bricks. - Wow. - I looked back at him and I don't think I blinked and I said, you know, coach, I appreciate that. I appreciate your willingness to help me out and to give me that honest feedback, but I'm going to prove you wrong, right? And so had to go to work, right? We had spring ball was over, your finishing finals and in transition kind of the summer workout period, as you know. - Yep. - And so that was a freshman year of ups and downs and you know, great fun times and tough times and experiences of reality a little bit. - A heart attack. - And so that transition to a summer of workouts and then the next, I guess my red shirt freshman year, not my true freshman year, where it was time to go to work, right? And it was time to really be serious about it and kind of change the whole mentality of this isn't, you're not here to have a good time, right? Like it's, this is a job. - Right. - And so that's really after my true freshman year when it went from, this is a great time. I'm with a bunch of guys that I like. I really like football. You know, this college thing's great too. I got to show up and win every day. - Right. - And so I can't say that I had a four row every semester after that. But that was really the mindset transition. - Dude, that's awesome. I mean, I got chills when you said that and it's funny because I think the vision I went back to was like the, I think it was the winter before I got put on scholarship. And I remember there's one specific workout that I can remember where I felt like every single coach was coming to the rack that I was at or was by where I was working out on turf and I felt like, you know, I got something to prove. Like, like I feel like I deserve this. I've worked my butt off and continued to every day. Like, but it's not about what I think. Like I got to show these people. And so for that coach to say to you, like you're not going to play here, I can only imagine. I mean, I think it's incredible because you can go one of two ways, right? You can go, you know, roll up into a ball and a shell. Like there's no chance I play here and completely have that negative mentality or you can use it as fuel. Like no, like I know I can play here. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't capable of doing so. And I'm going to show you. So I'm sorry, you were about to say something. I cut you off, but that just like that got me juiced. No, I am glad you said it because that brings back to my mind that that second summer. And we had a straight coach that I just really respect and like and still stay in touch with. And they put up on a board. They put it was just a big whiteboard, like the ones that roll around, right? And on one side, they wrote contender and on the and they split it down the middle and on the other side, they wrote contender. And they put up a guy's name on that board with a little magnet. Wow. Every day your name moved one direction, right? And just because I had guys keeping me accountable, you know, every day encouraged me, string coaches, football coaches, teammates, I ended up at the far right, the furthest right person on the contender side, right? And so you're right. You either have the option of curbing up into a ball and saying, I'll never make it or facing it head on and going, you know what, I'll prove you wrong. And so that was really my experience for the next-- probably two years, three years. You got to show up and work. And we went through coaching staff change after I think my third year it was. And that was an opportunity that I really needed. We, you know, I messed around my freshman year and hadn't taken it serious enough. And then you try to build your reputation for two. And a new coaching staff came in. - Clean slate. - To their credit. And I'll never forget Coach Philip Montgomery walking in the original team meeting. And, you know, it's a bunch of 18 to 24 year old to think they're the toughest dudes on earth. And what's this guy going to say to me to have my respect? And he walked in and he said, I'll treat you all like men until you don't earn it. And then I got to treat you like a kid. And to his credit and to the rest of that coaching staff's credit, they treated us all like men. It gave every single person an opportunity whether you were, you know, the elite player or the walk-on. And so that for me is what changed the trajectory of my career and the opportunity to earn a scholarship to become a team captain to play a key role on special teams to give a little bit of linebacker time. And so it went from just trying to make it to really get an opportunity. - And how do you think the, you know, I went through a coaching staff change as well. And certainly clean slate new staff, new opportunity to prove yourself to people who have no preconceived notion. Of course there would be film and whatnot, but you know, you're starting over to a degree. So two questions. One, you know, when did you get put on scholarship? And you know, why did Matt Hickman get selected as a team captain? I mean, you know, one thing I really appreciate about you is your humility and your ability to give credit to the people around you for their impact in your journey. And in the success that you've had previously and continued to have. But, you know, also you've worked incredibly hard. You've worked incredibly hard at that time and continue to do so. And that's why you've had the success that you've had as well. So, you know, what was the lead up to that pivotal moment when they said, hey, you're not paying for this anymore other than with your body? And B, you know, why, you know, why pick Matt Hickman to lead this team from a captain point of view? Yeah. So, you know what? My scholarship story was probably not super unique but somewhat unique in the fact that I finished my fourth season. So I was finishing school, but I still had a year of eligibility, right? Because I read Shirted that first year. And I, that season finished. I'd been a pretty significant contributor on special teams. I ended up with a special team's player, the year award. And I went into my coach's office after the season and was like, hey, coach, I'm graduating in May. And it just financially does not make any sense for me to pay for another year just to play football. Right. I'm gonna have to go get a job. And, you know, again, back to our coaching staff just being a really high quality men. My coach looked at me and said, hey, I don't have anything for you right now. I just don't. And so, you know, I thought that was the end of my playing career. I did. And so, you know, they were incredible and helpful. And I decided, okay, I gotta go look for a nine to five. And that was probably in, you know, the middle of January. And so, I thought it was fantastic. Love my teammates, great career, but that's it. So I was looking for a job and it was, I think the week before spring break, so it had been two months. Coach called me and when his number popped up in my cell phone, I knew like this is either really good and it's really unfortunate because when he told me he didn't have anything, he said, if something comes up, I'll call you. And so, I rushed to his office, I sit down and he said, what would you think about playing football again? And my response was coach, can I practice today? (laughing) Spring balls going on, I'm there. - Great. - And so I ran down into the locker room and a big group of guys was there and they were celebrating and happy. And so that was just a really neat experience to get to have. And so that's what allowed me to finish my final season. Was that? And so that answers your first question of scholarship experience and how that took place. And then your second question of how do you become a team captain or I guess, I'll just say a leader on a team. And you talked about it, it takes hard work because at the end of the day, I don't think you could really be a leader without the respect of the individuals around you. - For sure. - And I didn't get that respect without them giving it to me in the fact that then I was so lucky to be surrounded by a group of teammates. They were just incredible. I mean, we all supported each other. We all had a common mission. We all showed up every day and worked toward a goal. And I think they just recognized that I was willing to do what it took to get to that goal and to be the tackling dummy if I needed to and contribute in any way possible. And I think that's how I was fortunate enough to earn the respect and get to a position of a team captain and a leader and it was kind of leading from behind. I wasn't the all-star player who, because I had all the stat line, I could say something that people had to listen. It truly was, guys just found a way to respect me for whatever reason. And I'm really grateful for that. - Yeah, it's special. And I think one thing I want to touch on that, you haven't said, but I kind of get the sense that because it's something that I felt, when I look back at my time, playing Khalidah sports, the things that I value the most and miss the most, none of it is really around a game or a big win. It's all about the offseason and hot summer workouts. About seven on seven in the middle of the Texas heat or the Oklahoma heat. And really just those moments of grinding and struggling and really kind of leaning on each other and needing each other to push through. Would you say that you feel the same way? And what is it about those times that is so, I guess, impactful to where that's the stuff that we remember? - You could not be more correct. I mean, I completely agree. And it's the times that sacrifice, whenever you're hurting next to a guy and you've got one more rep of sprints and it's the middle of summer. Or it's the winter workouts and it's 30 degrees outside and it's 5'30 in the morning, not a soul on campus is up, but you guys, you're out there freezing. - Right. - I think in any time you face adversity with somebody, it builds a bond that's different than any other bond that you can create. - Right. And so, and then you said it too, where the times in the summer, when the football team's the only team on campus and you get up and you go to workouts and then you have summer school and then you've got eight hours with the rest of the day that you need to fill, right? And when you're hanging out with your teammates and so you spend hundreds, thousands of hours with guys over the course of five years, six years and it just builds a bond that I know I've had with dozens of guys since then, right? - Right. - And it's something special when whenever you're in either position, you're the guy that is struggling and you're struggling to get this rep or you're tired today and you have somebody standing next to you saying, you can do it, right? - One-harm, son. - And there's a really satisfying feeling of being the guy who isn't struggling today and who feels great, but looks at his brother and knows he's hurting and being able to put your arm around and be carrying through that finish line. - Right. - And know that you did that for somebody else and he would do it for you. And so that is just a powerful thing to go through that adversity together and then look back, you know, 30 minutes an hour, five, 10 years later and we did that together and we couldn't do anything without each other. - Yeah, I couldn't agree more, you know, going to war with your brothers, making memories that truly, truly do last a lifetime. So now I wanna get into your transition from being a collegue to athlete, playing sports into your professional life. I know, you know, that final year that you were back at TU, you were able to get your MBA and I'm making the assumption that by the time you were done playing you didn't really feel like the league was gonna be it. So, you know, what was your background in the classroom and what was that transition like for you going from student athlete that being your full-time job to a full-time job but not having the responsibilities of being a student athlete anymore? - Yeah, that, so that was a very real reality that hits quick, right? And I think every athlete, whether you finish, We'll leave it. when you're in eighth grade high school in college or a pro athlete, that reality always comes true quicker than you want it to. - Oh, absolutely. - You're correct. By the time I got done playing, there were no illusions that I was gonna be an NFL football player. And so, but even then, it's still a reality that you don't deal with until it's right in your face. And so football ended and you're exactly right. I was in the middle of graduate school and trying to finish that. And you look up and say, okay, I got a year left to grad school, now I have to go find a job. And that's how most people would have made that transition. I was behind the eight ball. So I finished grad school, had an amazing experience doing that. And again, my whole time at TU was made up of, great coaches, great professors, great administration, et cetera, classmates, teammates. And it was March. I'm getting ready to finish my MBA. And all my classmates had internships and looked up and were ready to start their jobs that they had. And I was still kind of caught up in what you said of not necessarily a let down, but a transition phase. And hadn't been thought in depth about, okay, I have to actually get the job. And so it's March and graduating in May. Where am I going to focus this energy? Where am I going to put all this time and effort that I put into football for so many years into something else? And so I started trying to get an investment banking or management consulting job. And to those firms credit, they only have to recruit it. It's certain schools and TU isn't one of them. And so I online apply. You send in thousands of applications with just no luck at all. Not even one response email back. And so I decided, all right, if I'm willing to do the work that it takes to have a football career and be a student athlete and I was lucky to have smog from early endeavors while I was in grad school, I'll take a chance here. And so I went to the Chase Bank and cashed out the $3,500 that I had to my name is like $3,563 if I remember right. Wow. And that's all I had. But a one way plane ticket to New York and a former teammate who played D-Line while I was at TU, he worked at PWC there in Manhattan and said, can I sleep on your couch and just hand out my resume. It's like, man, if you're crazy enough to do that, absolutely. And so I think going from having a full-time job as a student athlete and knowing what it takes to make that happen every day, it reduced the level of fear. Right, I knew, hey, you show up every day and you go to work, you have to earn it. I can do the same thing and trying to hunt down a job. And so I was in New York City for months, two, three months and got like enough to be introduced to somebody who then down the chain of connections got me into a spot or into an interview at Goldman Sachs. And so I interviewed and I thought, this will be great. It'll be New York job just kidding. It was in Dallas. And so looked up and moved back to Oklahoma, got all my stuff and I was actually caught a ride with a guy, because I was out of money by the time that I'd been in the interview. I was like $0 to my name. And a guy that I met whose girlfriend was from Tulsa. And I still know him, he's a phenomenal gentleman. He was driving from New York to Tulsa to drop her car off at Tulsa. And so he was like, man, I'm driving, you're out of money. You want to ride. And so he and I jumped in the car drove to Nashville state of night and then made the drive to Tulsa. And so that is actually how I got from New York to Oklahoma to start my job in Dallas was a car ride with a guy that I met once. Wow. I mean, first of all, walk on mentality, because it's all about bed on yourself. You took all the money that you had left your name in Winton, New York with no job, just with the plan that I'm going to get out on the street and handle my resume. And that's a scary journey. That's a scary thought, but you did it. You believed in yourself. And you got an opportunity with one of the top firms in the profession that you were pursuing. So that's incredible and also insane that you then wrote, like one of the odds that someone would be driving back to Tulsa. That's incredible. But OK, so got the gig, got to the trip back to Tulsa and then to Dallas. And I'm a little familiar with investment banking. But everything that I've heard about it it sounds like it's an absolute grind. And it's really funny because you talked about your walk on experience. You talked about the job application experience of just sending out application after application. And like, looking for a job as a grind in itself, but staying committed to that process and doing that, we also talked a lot about while playing football, going through the struggle and grinding with your team. So talk about coming through the ranks in an investment banking role with Goldman Sachs. I mean, I know there's a ton of similarities. So let's connect some dots there. You're correct in-- there's a lot of similarities in having to. It doesn't matter who you are. When you start out at Goldman as an analyst, you're starting back at the bottom. And you've got to have that. You said it, walk on mentality. If I'm going to do the work, this work isn't going to be fun. It's going to be a late night. And I just have to grind through it. One nuance was for me was I didn't even get a front office investment banking job. I got a back office support role for investment banking when I first started. And so, or middle office support role. And-- So what does that mean for somebody who's not really too sure about what investment banking is? Yeah. And so great question. So there's the front office, which would be the deal teams out, have all the relationships with the clients. They take a company public or a big merger acquisition happens. They're the teams working on that deal upfront, talking to those clients every day, really managing the relationships and delivering the final product. The middle office and then subsequent back office, those are the folks who are not client facing in any way, maybe with the exception of other banks or other investment banks. But they're what make the wheels go round, right? When dollars have to move, when papers have to move, when things have to get done to make the bank work every day, that's what those teams do. And my middle office team sat between those folks who managed the relationships and the back office teams that sent wires out the door and made sure that clients got their settlements they needed or documents that they needed, whatever it might be. I mean, really just facilitated those things happening. And I was lucky to do a couple of different things in that role in Dallas. And it truly was having management. And you've seen a theme here, right? Having people who surround and still to my existing position, people who surround me in are highly supportive and willing to help me grow in whatever way they can. And so I had a global management team that I sat down with John, the manager director who he ran, I don't know, was 400 people globally and he came to Dallas. And I had been on the job for a month. And everybody's like, if you can get time with John, just get 10 minutes, right? Just so he knows you, recognize your face. So I sit down with John, hi, I'm Matt Hickman. And to his credit, he's a super personable Matt. What are your goals? And I have some personal goals about reaching a certain monetary values that I can provide an individual with an opportunity. And I told him that. And I said, John, if I can reach that financial goal, sitting in this seat, I would love to do it. But he knew that wasn't reality. And he knew the place that I needed to be was in that front office seat, interfacing with clients. Because they also have the opportunity to earn more. Right. In that role. And so at his credit, he was like, I appreciate that. Thank you. If I can never help, I will. So I did a year in a team in Dallas. They were grateful for what I did there, asking to move to another team that our mutual friend and who introduced us, Mike Hampton, worked on. And Mike had gone on to do some other things. They had a person leave, a lady on maternity leave. And they just had a void that they needed, filled and asked me to fill that. And so I did that for a year. And that's another bet on yourself. Right. You got to have that welcome mentality. when somebody shows up and offers, hey, knock on the door, well, you do this quite often, you gotta say yes. And so-- - And it's uncomfortable too. - Yeah, you're starting over, right? You gotta learn a whole new process, a whole new job. So, I said yes to that. Well, a third time, a gentleman, the ran the team that I supported in New York, they had an analyst leave. And he called and said, would you like an opportunity? Just to interview. And I need to talk to my global management and I talked to John, the same guy who I sat down a month in, and John was highly supported and a few other folks in the organization said, "If we can make this happen, we'll support you in any way." And true to his word two years later. So I interviewed with the team in New York and I interviewed with a gentleman who ran the team in New York and he said, you know what? Next day, I just wanna have you talk to a couple people on the team to see if this is a fit. So the next day, I talked to the entire team. It was just a full day of interviews. - Yeah. - And I didn't hear anything for week to weeks and I thought, well, I blew that, right? (laughing) There goes that opportunity. - All right. - And it was a Tuesday night. I was at the YMCA, the White Rock YMCA in Dallas. - Yep. - And I'm running on the treadmill. It's nine o'clock in my phone rings and it's the guy I interviewed with who ran the team. Like, oh no, I have to answer this. (laughing) I don't even take a stop on the treadmill. I just put my feet on the side of it. You know, I'm out of breath. Hey Logan, you know what's going on? And he asked, what are you doing? (laughing) He's laughing at me. And I was like, I'm at the gym and he's really kind. He's like, look, finish your workout and comb me back. So did not finish the workout. - Of course not. - Yeah. - Went straight home, called him back. And he apologized. He said, I'm sorry, that took so long. We had to deal with a bunch of HR stuff. We really liked you, you went to the job. And I'm blown away. My wife, who I had married six months before that, she's sitting there, she's blown away. She's realizing I just moved to Dallas six months ago. That means we're moving to New York. - Right. - And so all those meals are spinning in her head and he can kind of hear the pause in my voice. And so in the most Goldman Sachs fashion, he says, you know what? This is a really big decision for you. And you know, to reiterate, it's like 10 o'clock at night now. - Right. - And he says, I'll give you to a seven in the morning. I'll call you then and then you can tell me your decision. And so, thanks. You know, I got a handful of hours to get this figured out. - Right. - Hang up the phone and, you know, my wife knew what the call was. And we've been praying about it for a long time about an opportunity like that coming up. And to her credit fully on board immediately. She said, if you wanna go do it, I'm there. And so the next morning, it was seven a.m. Eastern. So at six a.m. in Dallas, I told the team, I'd love to be in New York. I'd be grateful for the opportunity. And so that's the was the third time and you know, just a little over two years that you gotta have that walk on mentality and when an opportunity comes up and it's some, you know, there's gonna be some adversity, but you gotta bet on yourself. - Right. - I mean, you said it, you have to go do it. And so starting with the new team and to get all the way back to what you talked about is that first year, so that was January. And that first year, the fewest hours I worked in a week was Christmas. So 12 months later, I think we worked like 85 hours that week. - Wow. - And so it was an absolute just get after it. Show up every day, ready to work. And to the credit of the team that I transitioned to, I started and they said, whatever you need, just ask. We will help you however we can. And they did, right? It was full speed ahead. They trusted me to just dump me right in the middle of a process and say, go get 'em. But if I had a question, they answered. And so we did absolute record volumes that year. So got to see some pretty unique stuff as far as deals and transactions. Got to work with some incredibly talented people. But you're right. You're gonna work 110 hours in a week and you got to get after it. - And you also got to ask questions, it sounds like. I mean, I think there's probably some level of, you can't be successful unless you have the humility to admit that you don't know something and ask for that help that that person offered you so graciously and really lean into the strengths of others where you may have deficiencies just like in a team sports environment. But that's incredible, man. And, you know, well, deserve. - Well, I appreciate it. You're right. You gotta have the humility to ask. And then on the flip side of that, whenever you're in a position in a team sport or in a job or whatever it might be, you have to be willing to give the answer, right? You have to be willing to help somebody out. And so, you know, we'll take it back to all those summer workouts whenever you're, it's that Texas heat or that Oklahoma heat. And you still have to finish the rep, but you know, I gotta help my team and finish the rep too. You have to have that team mentality. - Right. So, you know, you mentioned that very first conversation that you have with a gentleman at Goldman about financial goals, personal goals. And you and I talk about this a little bit that you knew your goal was to at some point in time either be in this venture capital space or I don't want to butcher exactly what you said, but you had a goal in mind, right? And so now you're in the position, you're in, but I want to talk about realizing that goal. And obviously the goals, they change, and evolve and get larger as you can take a progress, but how have you pivoted, or not pivoted, but how have you continued to progress from that position at Goldman to now being back in the Oklahoma area and doing what it is that you do now? - Yeah. And so I think it goes back to what you mentioned. It started by asking questions when I first started on my original job at Goldman. And then growing through each position, you know, the final team that I was on, I talked about we were lucky to do some record setting, or the third largest LBO in history, right? Like the largest healthcare LBO, the fourth largest healthcare LBO, the largest software LBO, right? Like we did some meaningful transactions. And so you get to learn, you get to accumulate knowledge, and I'm not saying that I probably played a very minute role in those, but because I got to be exposed to those things, it allowed me to develop a skill set or knowledge base and transition from that. And the nuance I would say is that I always knew I wanted to be in a seat like the one that I'm sitting, but I think first and foremost, I'll tie it all the way back to the way I grew up. And we talked about that of, you know, family and God, and being close to each other here was important. And so my wife and I knew that New York was gonna be temporary. We didn't know how long that was gonna be, we didn't know if it was gonna be a year, two, five, ten, but we knew we wanted to be back here. And so you're working at Goldman, you're getting exposure to just brilliant people, great transactions. And you're trying to learn something as you go. And this summer, I met a gentleman, who's now my boss here, his name's Justin Wilson, and he was with playing ventures, who frankly, I didn't know. And I didn't know him, I didn't know planes. It was all brand new and it was simply something that we wanted to be closer to family at some point. So we were back Labor Day this year. And I knew if I'm gonna be back at Oklahoma, if I'm gonna try to make a transition someday, you know, in the same way that I got to meet a great coach who gave me an opportunity, I better try to meet folks in the business community here, who can potentially provide that opportunity. And so somebody said, you should meet Justin. And the original conversation was very casual, get to know you, you know, he wanna know my background, I wanted to know his. And we left that conversation and he reached back out and said, look, I'm actually trying to hire for somebody. And it's in an investment principle role. And my ideal candidate is somebody who grew up in Oklahoma, has a passion for Oklahoma, but left and went to one of the coasts because there's a lot of value in learning that culture, there's a lot of value in being in developing a work ethic at a Goldman Sachs or something like that. And then he said, you know what, I wanted him to leave and then I wanted to come back and have a desire to be in Oklahoma. And you're starting to see a trend of it, they have to be God things because there's way too many things that are just coincidences, right? - Right. - And so I was like, well, Justin, you happen to know that that's me. And he's got that. And so that started the ball rolling. And again, back to my wife's credit. She had moved to Dallas, she had moved to New York and I said, you wanna move back to Oklahoma again? Yes. And so everybody's hearing that she's an absolute rock star. And what ended up taking place through the interview process was that they saw and Justin will say this and he means it in a very kind way. But I think it's super relevant for our conversation today is he's like, Matt, I didn't hire you for your smarts. And I don't think he's telling me I'm done. - Right. - But he said your background and going from, a walk on to having to earn it, to go into the back office, middle office, a Goldman to have an earn it. And by the way, I had been promoted a couple of times in my back office job. And then I had to go restart again to move the front office. So I was day one fresh. And so to go re-earn it again at Goldman Sachs. And he said, that just tells me you're willing to work. And you're willing to make a sacrifice to give up maybe some things that you want so that you can get the outcome in the long run. And we're trying to build something here at points. And that's what really attracted to me and to fit into this role. - I love to ask the people I interviewed to talk about kind of like some keys for them at these different phases or some things that they always lean back on, like call it a foundation. One of the things that have kept you so just like grounded and dedicated to the constant pursuit of like, just achieving at a high level. I mean, I know it's about more than just achieving at a high level, but it's like, there's never been a grind that's been too monotonous. There's never been a task that's too mundane. You've never been where in a situation where you felt like you were overqualified to do something. So I guess maybe the better question is like, what are kind of your pillars for how you operate? - Yeah, that is a very good question. And something that I've talked about faith a couple of times and I won't dive into that super deep here, but my faith is a foundation for me, right? And my family, and that's how I grew up, you talk about priorities and gods the first one, right, and have a new relationship with Jesus Christ. And so that's my main foundation, but then family. And I talked about being little bitty, and my mom and dad saying, if you're gonna do something, do it right. - Right. - We're not gonna make you do anything, but if you're gonna do it, you're gonna give it 100%, you're gonna do it right. And so I think that started before I can remember, and that laid another foundation. And so those are kind of some of the past, the current things that in my personal life, but then I would say goals, right? You know, my wife laughs when I tell this story, but when her and I decided to date, it ended up being me telling her, "I have this 50 year plan, and I wanna get to these goals at each mile stone and make all these things happen, and I would love for you to be a part of it." You know, if that sounds crazy to you, you know, tell me to go away. (laughing) And so I've always had a desire to set really big goals and goals that, hey, you know, if you look back and to have a goal as a walk on, of I wanna be an NFL player, you gotta have a bit of crazy in you. - For sure. - It doesn't happen often, but the way I also looked at that was, on the other side of it, if I show up every day and I work harder than anybody, I can't ever look back and have a regret. - Right. - I do every single thing that I can, you can't at the end of the day go, "Man, I should have done different." Or I didn't do, you know, I was lazy, or I skipped a rep or whatever it is to not meet my goal. And so, you know, staying grounded in my faith, my family, making those things a priority. But then knowing that, you know, we're all, this life's gonna come to an end for all of us, we're all gonna get old. And I don't wanna be the 90 year old that's sitting around going, man, if I should have could have would have. And so that late night, when it's 2 a.m. and you're a college student studying for a paper for it's Friday night and your boss hits you with the requests. And you're like, "Man, I just wanted to be my weekend." When you remember that and go, you know, I'm gonna power through this one because, you know, I'm gonna, there's Brent Leason wrote a book called Embrace the Suck and he's a Navy SEAL and I transparently, haven't read the whole book, but I love the cover. And I love Embrace the Suck, right? Because that Friday night when your boss hits you with that and you decide, you know what? I'm just gonna knock this out and I'm getting the best product I can because even though it's tough right now, my goal a year from now, my goal five years from now, my goal 50 years from now, doing this well and doing it right, it's gonna, it's the compounding of doing that right every time is gonna get you there. - Absolutely. And other thing I just thought about, it's like if you're that walk on in your goal is to make it to the NFL, then you're gonna do a lot more in your career probably than if your goal was to just run out of the tunnel. - Yes, 100%. If you show up and you work like you're trying to get to the NFL, you're gonna do a whole lot more than just be a guy who's waving a tower on the sideline. - Right, absolutely. Well, I love to ask to, you know, if you could give advice to any 17 year old kid who's thinking about walking on or somebody who's a walk on audience school, or just advice to the audience, would you have any sage item that you would leave the people with? - Oh man, that's a great question. That is a fantastic question. And I'm gonna tie it into, you know, what I do now at Plains 'cause I hadn't touched that yet. And Plains is the largest and oldest venture capital shop in Oklahoma and it started as a desire to grow the state. It create jobs, you know, invest in the people of Oklahoma. And we've since grown past that and we invest everywhere and, you know, in early stage, high growth stuff. And I say all that to say that when you're 17 or you're 50, you gotta have a reason why you're doing it. And that reason can't be, it can't be something that's fleeting because that's gonna go away when it gets really tough. You gotta know your why and it has to be a real why. It can't be when you're 17. I just wanna impress a girl on the football field, right? It can't be when you're 50, you know, something that once you earn it's going on. It's gotta be a real why. And I think when folks know they're why and they can think about that every single day, when it gets tough, you're able to succeed. - Yeah, now there's a book by Simon Sinek, called Start With Why. And it talks about how people don't care about what you do but they care about why you do it. - Yeah. - And the importance of knowing why. So that's phenomenal advice. Well, Matt, man, I've really, really enjoyed this conversation and I really appreciate you coming on and spending some time with me today. - Well, thank you. You know, I think what you're doing in the mission you have here is really valuable. For a lot of reasons, you know, when you are the, and I'll say walk on in air quotes because it doesn't necessarily mean a walk on on a team. It could be the new guy at work or the new girl at work or you're just in the tough situation. Here and other people's stories can be helpful. And so thank you for what you're doing, what you're bringing to people. I'm really grateful to get to be here. - Thank you, man. And to the audience, thank you guys for tuning in to another fantastic episode of the podcast and we will see you on the next one.