Episode #34 | CLIENT INTERVIEW: The Burnt-Out Pursuer: What Happened When Her Husband Stopped Chasing and Changed Himself

Hi, I'm Sophie. Welcome to the Love Life Lessons Podcasts. This is a space where we dive into everything relationships, whether your marriage feels disconnected, your craving, deeper, emotional intimacy, or you just want to feel like a team again, you are in the right place. Every week I'm here to give you tools, the mindset shift, and the heart level breakthroughs that help you turn your marriage around from the inside out. Real communication, real connection, real transformation, without shame, pressure, or pretending that everything is fine. So take a deep breath, settle in, and let's get into today's Love Life Lesson. You're exactly where you need to be. I am so excited to welcome to the show. Kali, who is a wonderful wife of a client of mine that I worked with last year, and that we still work a little bit together doing a couple of sessions, and I'm just so excited to have you on the show, Kali, and really excited for this conversation. I know it's going to be very powerful, and you're going to help a lot of people by sharing your story. So thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thank you for inviting me. I feel really excited to talk to you. It's a little different that I'm not your, you know, your client specifically or wasn't to start with. So I'm excited to dig in. Yeah, me too. And I actually think that that's a really amazing dynamic because I don't get very often to talk to the other side. Sometimes I do, you know, I do have a few people who I work with, and then the next boss has come on board, but a lot of the time I don't get to hear this perspective, and I think it's really amazing and what you've been doing on your social media and sharing your journey is really amazing as well. So I'd love to just dive right in. Can you tell me a little bit about your relationship breakdown? Why did we meet each other? Yeah, yeah, it's a long story. It started, you know, all the way back in 2010 is when my husband and I met and started dating. So we've been married just coming up on 12 years and been together about 16. So we've spent a lot of our, you know, young adult lives together for sure. And, you know, the reflection on our breakdown had a lot to do with me feeling like I was, you know, the emotional engine of our relationship is how I would describe it where it felt like I was the one putting a lot of the effort into growing and repairing and initiating hard conversations. And us, you know, just missing each other in communication. And then me feeling defeated if, you know, I wasn't having an emotional need, Matt, it got to the point where I just became truly depleted by that whole dynamic of trying to bring up something that would potentially help us grow only to have it be feel like it was dismissed or it became a criticism to him. And then it, you know, felt like I was just not being that or not being able to be understood. I've come to, you know, use the language or hear the language of being a pursuer in that like pursuer with a drawer dynamic where I was pursuing him. I was pursuing us as a partnership and as a relationship. And then he, the more I would push or more I would pursue, he would then withdraw from that because he was feeling either criticized or like he couldn't do enough or he was a failure as a husband, as a partner, as, you know, a father. And that just became a really ugly dynamic between the two of us. We both were operating from, you know, but our own kind of anxiety, our own kind of wounding of I was, you know, desperate for this level of enthusiasm about our relationship. This growth mindset, you know, I had this vision for what I hoped for us as a partnership. And then he was more content. He was a bit more passive in that. He was not seeing it as something that we just, you know, needed to like fix necessarily. And so that, that mismatch of that like growth versus fixed dining or like mindset toward it, it really, really created a lot of, a lot of tension and a lot of breakdown. And ultimately it just got me to the point of truly like burning out. My nervous system felt completely just out of this world for quite a long time. And it felt like anything I did would just make it worse, you know, nothing I did would make a change. No, no way I said it. No, you know, new podcasts I wanted us to listen to. No communication style I could bring up. No book, you know, I was trying to gain wisdom from anything I tried to implement. It just felt either like it felt on deaf ears or it actually just caused a fight. And so I very like quickly and very real just stopped bringing that stuff up. I went silent and I just resolved within myself like nothing I can do is going to make a change. So why would I put this effort? And then over time, you know, you just I could not sustain that. I could not live in a relationship where I felt like that. My body was starting to tell me like physical symptoms that were like this is not aligned with my values, what I want from a partnership. And I got to the point where I was just depleted. And I then I ended up saying like I want a separation. I wanted divorce and filed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of that. And so I think that this is really relatable. And I'm sure a lot of people can kind of really see themselves in this dynamic of I know I I was doing this in my marriage too. Like really wanting my husband to listen to certain podcasts or read certain books or go to therapy. And so what were you trying to actually fix in the marriage? If you say it say that you, you know, you wanted him to to grow more. What was the what was the thing that you were trying to to get from that? Yeah. I think it was a combination of like very, very well-intentioned things for wanting, you know, deeper connection and emotional intimacy and growth. But also this either emotionally immature or just, you know, wounded kind of like seeking potential and not really living in the reality of who my husband was or, you know, is and actually being able to like work with that. And rather than have this expectation or potential of what I hoped we could become, whether that be, you know, listening to podcasts of husbands and wives who had this like seemingly like so deep connection. They laughed so much with each other. You know, they just seem to be like truly so just in loving connected with one another. And I saw that and I wanted that like feeling of being so seen and so chosen and someone who genuinely enjoyed my company and growing together. So I think there was definitely well-intentioned of like I see like we have we have the foundation there in the history. And you know, we dated for four or five years before we got married. We had fun adventures together like it was there. But there was this like desire for more. And I think also as you get, you know, out of your 20s, you start potentially thinking about a family or you have children, you get into like real life and work stuff like that that fancy jazzy, you know, just life in general just doesn't get quite as exciting and whatnot. And so I think I was also seeking a level of depth from him in our home that would, you know, make up for just like the mundaneness of, you know, life and work and all of that stuff too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I can completely understand. And so if I was a fly in the wall like in your marriage, you say your nervous system was really burnt out. What did that look like in a practical way on the day to day in your life? Oh my goodness, this is such a good question that I use this analogy, a lot to like with, you know, any content that I make around it. I essentially and how I have reflected on my experiences that I went through for pretty significant stages of getting me to burn out. And if you were a fly on the wall, you likely would have seen some pretty significant, you know, markers of each stage. And you likely would have heard similar or like, you know, you'd be like, oh, yeah, you could pick out certain things at each stage. So if you're okay with it, if I just walk through through the stages. Okay, so then how I how I have come to conceptualize things is at in stage one, I was feeling like this optimistic pursuit, you know, like I'm, I'm desperately trying to pursue my husband and connection, not I wouldn't even say desperate. It was just this like excited desperate, again, not desperate, this excited energy of trying to pursue connection. So like reading the books, listening to the podcast, have it, you know, listening to different people talk about different, you know, relationship styles or learning about personality stuff. I love any a gram work, for example. So digging into those things for me, especially of how they influenced my marriage. So in this like optimistic place of, yeah, saying things to him like, hey, I listen to this podcast, do you want to listen to it with me or I read this really interesting thing in a book like do you want to read it along with me or you know see what this says and so it became something where I was really trying to connect at a lot of bids for connection and over time if that felt again like it went dismissed or minimized or rejected in some way then I would fall it fell more into that anxious pursuit where I felt like my my nervous system was becoming more activated more hyper vigilant where I was shifting into something where I was more critical where I would say more pointed things like you're not doing this you know it like I would become a bit more of that resentful energy of well I you know you're not paying attention to this or why am I the only one having to do this and it would get to the point where I can see it very clearly now looking back that that would have caused him to withdraw or you know feel criticized or feel like he was a failure but internally I was like well the nice sweet you know appeasable pleasant way wasn't working it wasn't getting me that connection and so as I became more frustrated and more resentful I was like look I don't have I don't have as much of that like pleasant sweet energy to give I'm starting to become more anxious about this and so from an outsider's perspective you would likely see more of that like sharp you know tone with with delivery of things we're starting to get disconnected from like a you know sitting on opposite sides of the couch perspective or coming home and not having a sweet exchange you know not as much physical touch in general just some of that like distancing emotionally and then with that of course you know both of us are going to feed off of that energy neither of us were in a strong enough place to like block that dynamic you know we both fed off of it to the point where I was more anxious he was more withdrawn and that just became a cycle and then ultimately I got that burnt truly got me to the point of burnout where I just I remember having this like identity shift within me thinking nothing I do is going to make a difference here nothing I do is going to make me feel like I can be heard or understood or you know be able to like express a need and have it be met in a way that feels like it matters to him and that's a really really hard place to be it's really hard I felt extremely stuck I felt trapped I felt like I couldn't do anything to you know shift the dynamic and make it look or feel different internally it just felt I felt very very trapped there are a few moments where I can just like genuinely think back to them and think like I don't know how to get out of this and also get my needs met absolutely okay thank you for sharing and so was there a moment in time that you were like I cannot continue like this was I one specific conversation one specific argument that you guys had that made you think okay this is it it definitely was not one specific thing it happened over many many months probably until I was very honest with myself of saying like I am so unhappy here it was a very quiet you know that intuitive knowing that this is very much not aligned with like the values of how I want to show up as a wife as a mother because it was affecting you know how I was parenting just given the emotional state and the hard place to be in when you're feeling that emotionally exhausted I remember thinking like I don't like who I am here I'm not this cold and distant and apathetic like I am a warm you know loving person I have so much love to give and I felt like I I couldn't muster up the energy to do that anymore and so that coupled you know I don't like who I am here plus with and I feel trapped and don't know how to get out that combination of the two once I like fully accepted it it was not a like one big argument it was like me and my journal kind of making that realization come to like true life and like it's a scary thing to admit that to yourself and then you know of course like majority of these types of situations like it wasn't like the next day that I said I wanted a divorce I really really really battled internally with the decision of saying or leaving for I honestly I don't even know how long because it feels money because we had a lot of you know ups and downs in that time but for for years probably a couple years yeah yeah so tell me a little bit and Callie about those ups and downs that you had during those years when you eventually asked for divorce was that the first time that you'd asked for divorce tell me about like the those ups and downs we went through a couple different separations prior to me ultimately saying like I wanted to file I'm trying to think when the first one was maybe like 2019 it was a while ago where I had those first thoughts of like I can't do this but it wasn't with the intention of a divorce I just needed space like I just I felt that visceral feeling of like I'm feel stuck here I need to go somewhere where I can feel like I can you know have that level of emotional safety and so I did I ended up going and staying with my parents for about a month during that time and you know that was probably the first wave of like oh my gosh we're gonna make changes we're gonna you know this is not how it's gonna be we're gonna work on this we started therapy you know we did a lot of that initial work around it but the mistake we made is that after that month we just kind of fell into a honeymoon phase we were like oh my gosh we've had all these revelations you know things are good now we're ready to like jump back in and we really didn't give ourselves the time to do the work to truly make like the lasting change that needed to come with it we just kind of lived on that emotional high of coming back together and so then a few years later trying to think when that was after like you know the chaos of having babies and you know living in that like small young children world is when we did another that's when I felt like coming out of the fog of you know parenting and we have two young kids and after I think when my youngest was maybe like 18 months or so was the second time I felt like I got to the point where okay I'm not happy and this is not you know working for us it still felt like not much of what we had like worked on back in that time made much of a difference or obviously adding kids is just a whole another layer of challenge and exhaustion and you know learning one yeah things about one another because you just you don't know what the relationship is going to be like until you actually you know have kids and and whatnot but then yeah we did another separation that was a bit more time apart I think it was like a total of maybe three months and that was good that was like okay that's where I felt you know this level of okay this distance is really helping me get some relief it's helping me get a little bit more clear on what I want it felt like productive in that time but then we ended up having to move back in together just for financial reasons and again we were good for like three or four months and then we just completely back split again so the true understanding of you know things healing and learning and reflecting and growing takes time and people are are very afraid to take that time apart but I do think especially when you've been together for a long time and there's a lot of complicated history like you have to put in that work and trust the process in that way yeah yeah I agree it does take a lot longer than people want it to take yes definitely for sure you know I always say couples and individuals give it a year give it a year I know that women were in the relationship breaks down to where you you know actually reconcile what even say that you want to reconcile because it does take time it's like after you've done yeah for a long time it took me my husband almost a whole year to come back together after we went through our breakdown so yeah yeah yeah and it's like refreshing so sorry to hear that because you know other people will say like just a few months or you know you shouldn't need that much time apart and I just I always err on the set of more time than what you think you'll need you know take more time then if you're really really there then you know that you've had that time apart yeah yeah and I mean personally my belief is that it doesn't always have to be a separation but it does need to be like a significant amount of time when you sort of step back from seeing the relationship as the source of everything that you're looking for and all that fulfillment that you're looking for and really go within and figure out what's going on within me that's like creating or contributing to that and both people. are doing it. That's why I do think those separations can be healthy in some situations because if both people are doing it then you just have more time and more space because you're on your own and you're not sort of in the same house together. Yeah. So for you guys, Kelly, what was, so you'd have the separation, the short one, the month one where you went to your parents and then you had the longer one for three months. What was that final breakdown that happened that caused the longest separation and you to actually go through with filing for divorce? Can you share a little bit about how that happened? Yeah, I think it got to the point where I was honestly just really, really depleted by that cycle, by the, you know, getting to the point of being exhausted, saying, I'm done, we split or we separate and then we go through this, you know, emotional high after having some time and we're up and we're good and we're feeling good. And then for whatever reason we are falling back down, it just felt like it's becoming a real pattern for us. I was just, I truly did not think that we would be able to get ourselves out of it. It felt like we were doing just enough of that work to get us to the next like phase of, okay, we're better, but it either didn't last or it wasn't sustainable or it was just enough to like placate the hurt for that time and then we would just fall back into it. So I just, I genuinely, I just lost hope. I lost hope that we would ever get out of the pattern. I did not think there was going to be a chance for us to recover from it in a way that wouldn't have me thinking like, are we going to be doing this for the next 30, 40 years? This is not the type of relationship I want for myself. It's not a relationship. I want to model for my children. I just genuinely got to the place of saying I would just rather be alone. Stop hurting him. Stop hurting me. You know, I was living in this place where like he couldn't trust me because every, you know, we'd be doing okay and then we'd have a few months of being fine and then all of a sudden we'd fall back into it and I would say I want to leave. Like that's not who I want to be. That's not the type of partner I want to be. I just felt like looking back now, I just, I never was able to heal my nervous system enough for both of us, and him as well, to do that work for both of us to have that time to truly learn how he and I could be two separate people who met when we were young and had all this, you know, the childhood baggage, what not, to truly become mature adults who could choose one another. We were just to, we just, we couldn't get to that point and I honestly didn't think we were going to be able to. Yeah, and so when you asked your husband for divorce, did you ask him right away for divorce and then get separated? Like what were the logistics on that? I asked for the divorce in April and then we decided to just like hold off on any relationship talk at all until we had a like couples therapy appointment scheduled in June. So we still live together. We just tried to function as good as we could. My husband was extremely a lot, a lot of smothering, a lot of desperate, anxious energy. Our roles completely flipped where, you know, he was now the very anxious pursuer of me and I was then the, you know, colder, apathetic, distant withdrawal. And so that was very, very hard to live in. That counseling appointment essentially solidified the fact that I was done and I did not want to continue any further. And so we decided like that day, okay, our marriage is over. We took our rings off and I started the paperwork to file. So then in by July, I had filed and we had, you know, talked more logistics about, about, you know, who's living where and whatnot. And we decided I would live in our home. And then he would find a place to live. And he kind of, you know, Doug is, I wouldn't say Doug is seals, but he definitely didn't, didn't push that process along very quickly. We lived together until like October, early October, maybe before he actually moved out. And then we got like three solid months of like very, very little contact just about our kids living apart. And that's truly where like the reset happened for us. Okay. So what did your husband start doing differently? So I hear that he was smothering you. He was trying to initiate lots of relationship talks. What did that look like? That sort of raw reversal that pushed you further away? Because I know that a lot of my clients coming to me dealing with exactly the same situation that you're dealing with right now or that you were in, rather, you know, in your husband's shoes. And they've been doing probably some of the same behaviors that your husband was doing that was making things worse and pushing you further away. Could you share a little bit more about those behaviors? Yeah. And I will say it was extremely hard to live in a home where on a daily basis, I knew we were going to like be having some conversation about the relationship. And you know, I understand why he was doing it. I understand the desperation behind it. And I genuinely like, I don't want to speak, you know, that it was this big like negative thing by any means, but that it deeply, deeply impacted me and my nervous system. And it was a lot of, you know, monologues of things he was learning and the apologies and ways he knew he could have showed up better. And it was tears and, you know, grabbing my hands and trying to hold me and have me look eye to eye and talk with him. And it was, you know, emails or letters or things just to try to get me to understand his perspective and how he was seeing what that he understood why I was doing what I was doing. Yeah. So, you know, it was getting to the point where I didn't want to come home from work because I didn't know what I was going to be walking into. It was a lot of, you know, can I just ask you this one thing? And then it would be an hour later, we would still be talking about it. It was not respecting my, you know, requests for like, hey, do you mind taking the kids? And then I'll like have some time in the house for myself. And he would overstay, you know, an hour. Like, it was just a lot of pressure that made me feel like I then had to manage his emotions along with it that I had to like conform and decide at that moment, am I going to be mean here and say like, hey, I need you to stop. Or am I going to like hold space for that because I loved him. And I didn't want him to be hurting. I felt horrible that like I was the one initiating all of this. But all of that really added to the emotional way. And it did not help my nervous system heal in that time at all. Yeah, absolutely. And it probably didn't help his case either, right? And I think it is such normal thing that people do. And I know that I did this in my marriage when my husband was trying to leave, you know, let's just talk about the marriage. It'll be one thing. And then two hours later, you're still having this heavy, heavy, heavy talk. And it definitely puts, I don't think it creates attraction. Or, you know, any sort of magnetic energy between the two of you is such repellent, right? Yeah. And I mean, I remember, you know, how they say like people will have like inappropriate emotional reactions like during a funeral or something like that. Like I remember once my nervous system was so dysregulated, like I had to hold back a laugh because I was so uncomfortable with just the way that things were like going about that evening and so different than the expectation in my mind of, you know, getting some space or us just having like some time where we were having an exhale or a chance to breathe. And it was very, very difficult on a daily basis to be in that environment and feel like you were saying, you do, it's not an attractive, you know, dynamic to be in for either of us. And neither of us were in a good space at all during that. Yeah. For sure. And it sounds like his nervous system was very dysregulated too. Yes, for sure. Oh, good view. Well, in a, in a, in a tricky spot. And so why was it that your husband started to do differently from the coaching that he was doing that really started to change this dynamic? And did it happen all at once? So was it very much little by little? How did that start to change? It was actually really interesting because he, the night he moved out, I mean, it was a very emotional night for all of us. it was hard, you know, to have that feel quite final. But literally after that night, he did not reach out to me or say or do anything that even resembled smothering literally and on. I mean, he, it flipped like 180. The second he got out of this home. And I think it was a lot of, you know, credit to what you were teaching him as well of the having to, you know, own your own emotional world. And you have to get to a point of doing this for yourself, regardless of if they come back or not. I mean, having the accountability of you and the groups and, you know, knowing he had that external support was huge. But yeah, I mean, he completely shifted that. And it made such a huge difference. I was expecting texts, you know, I was expecting some flowers or something or, you know, he dropping off or transitioning with the kids, like having it be this big conversation, he did none of that. Okay. So he like totally, he totally won 18 on you is what I did. Yeah. Yeah. And so what did you start to think, sitting at home and not getting those things that you were expecting? Was it a relief? Were you curious? How did that start to change for you? Initially, it was very much a relief to be brutally honest. Like I was like, oh my gosh, I can exhale here. I felt peace, you know, in my home, it felt like, oh, I can get a breath away from that weight and that just the emotional, like heaviness of the interactions we had had, it felt like I, that probably lasted for maybe two months. I feel like around the two month mark, I felt this real shift within me of feeling like genuinely wanting to know how he was doing. Because during those two months, during that time apart, we interacted only because of the kids if we had to. You know, we didn't talk about anything other than the kids or logistics. And he had this like energy of him that was detached from me, but still warm. You know, I knew he was still wanting our marriage to work out. I knew he was still hoping and that, you know, we would reconnect, but I could tell that he shifted into this more like confident energy, the security. He was, you know, doing things for himself like health-wise and mindset-wise that I just grew some curiosity around. I didn't get to the point where I was like, oh, I want to, you know, repair or re-initiate something with him until a little bit later, but I definitely felt this internal shift where I had had enough space and time to, you know, relax myself and get to the point where I could actually not have my walls be so high and not feel so guarded. So yeah, I definitely felt a change when in those times that we were interacting. And yeah, it was interesting. Yeah, so he was more confident, more detached, but also really timed, starting to do things for himself. He was more emotionally stable, emotionally centered within himself. And how did that build from there? How did it go from you starting to be a little bit curious and to really starting to think maybe this marriage is going to work out after all, because I know you guys, you were in the proceedings of debolus at that point, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In October, we like finalized the paperwork, we had it all signed, we were essentially just waiting for that, you know, four-month period or whatever it is. And in Wisconsin to be able to actually get our hearing. So we were near the end of it and thought that was going to happen. You know, I think we both had got to the place where we had accepted that we were going to be divorced. And this was just going to be the figuring out, you know, the the best new normal for our kids and whatnot. But I remember he was coaching a basketball game for our daughter. And I remember watching him. And I just got this like wave of grief. Like I had not had a lot of emotion around this, to be honest, because I was so depleted and burned out at this point that I felt quite numb. I had grieved a lot of it while we were going through the hard. And while, you know, things were really breaking down. But once I got to the point of saying I'm done, I just felt quite apathetic toward it. And so I felt this like really intense wave of grief. And that kind of surprised me a little bit. I was like, whoa, where did that come from? And it hit me, you know, that week, I remember just like being quite emotional about it and wanting to reach out and wanting to check in and let him know. Like I'm not over here living my best life, like loving everything ready to go, you know, like just get the divorce done and like I will move on whatever I was like, I want to be able to tell him that I'm struggling because I felt horrible if he was sitting there struggling. You know, I started to have the ability to like really be empathetic towards his experience in all of it. And there was a period or a night where like he dropped something off for the kids and he kind of just talked a little bit. And I was the first one to say, like, how have you been? And that was honestly the most we had even talked about the relationship at all throughout that whole time. And it just kind of evolved into, you know, us talking about where we were at and how things were. And he was like, I remember saying like, oh, I know Sophie wouldn't want me telling you this about certain, you know, just connection pieces and whatnot or things he's been learning and things. But that conversation, you know, really was the pivot point. And then from there, there was just this like warmth between us and attraction between us, you know, this, this curiosity. And I think it's, you know, I get asked this a lot when I talk about our relationship and it's, you know, worth pointing out that like neither of us pursued any other type of relationship during any of this, you know, we both chose not to date or anything like that. And so having knowing that like we hadn't moved on in any other way, it created this like air of him being able to ask like, would you be willing to just pause the divorce at this point? We, I know we may not end up together. Like we may still end up going through it. I think he felt like I'm, he was finally in a place where he could grow and learn and like build off of a real foundation of what he had been learning with you that it felt like we have not given this, you know, a shot that or like everything that we could. And it would be unfair to our kids to not try to rebuild from this place now. Yeah, amazing. And so what did you say when he said, I said, no, I said, I'm not ready for that. Like I'm not ready to tell you, like I personally, I felt like I needed to go through with the divorce like symbolically to say like, I'm not going to continue on with this pattern. You know, I'm not going to fall in to what we have done in the past of like, okay, we're good for a while, then we're just going to end up here again. I didn't want to go through this again. The divorce process is not easy. It's not pleasant. It's gruesome. It's ugly. It's, you know, hard. It's very tedious. Like I didn't want to be good for a year and then fall back into this again. He understood that and he, you know, he said, if you need to do it, like if we need to just get divorced, I understand if you have to do that. And that felt that was a very kind generosity to me to say like, I don't care necessarily if we're married or not. I just want to be together and I want a chance to grow together. You know, so that felt like a safe point. And you know, as we just talked a little bit more and you know, we spent a little bit more time together as a family, it just felt wrong, honestly, to go through with the actual divorce. I felt the difference in him. I felt the difference in our energy together, how we interacted, how that emotional safety was there, the conversations we had. You know, a big part of it was he was really able to take accountability for his part of our whole dynamic and him being able to truly articulate how I was feeling helped me be like, wow, he really gets it. Like he really understands the hurt in the loneliness that I was feeling for a long time. And so him being able to articulate it made me feel very safe in a lot of ways. And we just honestly, it just like I said, it just felt wrong to actually go through with it, out of just this like kind of stubborn place, when I knew internally, like I didn't want anything different at that point, you know, we were good, our kids were good, like we had a good separation, if we agreed, nothing is gonna change right now, we're not gonna just jump right back in together, but we could see how it would go, you know, and put it as a pause rather than just go with it, just 'cause we said we were going to. Yes, I have two questions about what you're sharing that I think will be really helpful for the listeners. So, when you guys were living in the house together, you said that he was just constantly apologizing. He was constantly apologizing, saying I'm sorry for, you know, all the things that he did. Then I heard you say that one of the things that really was appealing to you once he started doing the coaching and the work was that he knew how to take accountability for his part in the pattern. So, can you share, Kali, like what was the difference between the apologies that he was doing when he was at home and the real accountability that he took when you guys actually started to get back together and have that connection again? - Yeah, that's a good question. I haven't thought about that before. Honestly, it was probably very similar words and phrases and things he was taking accountability for, or, you know, apologizing about, I think the difference between those two moments truly was where I was at being able to receive them. And not having the fear when it was that desperate anxious of like, oh, he's just saying this just to get me back or he's just saying this now that I've said I'm leaving. You know, a very common experience for the people on my side is like instant anger or resentment of like, why did it take me leaving for you to hear this or recognize this? So, I don't think I was in a place where I could truly receive it as genuine. It felt desperate and honestly like this fear of it being, you know, manipulative of just trying to like get me to stay versus after, he truly got to a point of saying like, look, I'm gonna be okay if we don't make it out on the other side of this. You and I, we probably will be fine. You know, we can move forward with our lives and be okay and be able to function as co-parents. And that's just the way it would be. But we got to a point of like genuinely wanting to choose one another, like choose our marriage, choose our story, choose our path forward that it felt so different. It felt so much more grounded. It felt so much more authentic. Like it was truth, like it was truly understanding. It wasn't just a way to try to get me back, but it was truly to like, it was real accountability because it was like owning the changes that he was making as well. - Yeah, yeah, I hear it was more embodied. It was more, his nervous system had really calmed down to the point that when he was taking that accountability, it felt the energy behind it felt really different to you. It wasn't just rushed, let's, you know, I'm gonna apologize and hope to get you back and just, you know, roast spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks, that it was really, he was taking that full accountability. And then I have a question for you, Collier, that I think will be really helpful to listeners. I try to help my clients to see that sometimes somebody that's filed for divorce needs to continue to go through the process of filing for divorce. Even if they start to question whether they want the marriage to work or they want that person, because once you've committed and once you've put all of that energy in time to making that decision, that feels like some big step that they're taking for themselves. And like you said, Collier, like, you didn't want to go into those old patterns. Can you share a little bit? Because I think a lot of what I hear is, but they've filed for divorce, so that means it's definitely over. And I've seen relationships come back even after divorce papers have been filed and people have actually gotten divorced and got back together. And what I will say to clients is like, you had an amazing marriage before you got married. I mean, an amazing relationship before you got married, maybe even better than before you got married. So it's just a piece of paper and so you can have a great relationship after divorce too. But in people's mind, it's like a line that once that gets crossed, it's never gonna come back. So can you share a little bit more about that, Collier, from your side as somebody that was going through and continue to want to go through with it for a while until you changed your mind on that? - Yeah, yeah, it's a really difficult mindset to be in that inner conflict of in my experience. I felt like I itself abandoned for quite some time. I felt like I suppressed a lot of feelings and emotions and needs for the sake of my relationship. I felt like I was the one to, from people pleasing patterns and whatnot or conflict avoidance or whatever it might be that I felt like I lost myself entirely. And like I said, I didn't like who I had become in my marriage and so the decision to leave not only was it extremely hard to make that decision but it also like fought against all of my conditioning of being a good wife or a good mom and having to tell people and go through the conversations and tell the teachers and go with all the family and the family members and with us being having our ups and downs, my family, my friends, they have rode this roller coaster with us, it got embarrassing honestly to the point of being like, oh, just kidding, we're back on, we're off again, it just is one of those things where the emotional energy that you put into it, it builds and it compounds. And so once I actually said I'm getting a divorce like that was a big, big, big deal for me, it was not just a quick decision, it was not out of an impulsive whim, it really was very, very heavy. So that decision plus actually filing plus doing all of the paperwork, getting to the point of having it ready, like we were at the finish line and then to dismiss it and say, oh, never mind, we're not gonna go through with it, felt like is this another form of self abandonment on my side, is this me appeasing him again because he doesn't want us to go forward with this. So I'm the one that's again shrinking my own needs or whatever it might be until I genuinely had proof that something could be different and something would be a relationship that I would choose differently or be able to enter in in a much more like peaceful place, not from a place of guilt or obligation, I wasn't going to not go forward with the divorce. I didn't want to enter again from a place of just doing it out of guilt, like that did not feel aligned with me because I knew deep down we would just end up here again. I'm not the type of person that can sit in something where I don't feel aligned with it for years and years. I can't do that with a career, with a friendship, with other parts of my life and especially something as complicated as marriage. - Yes, absolutely. So what would you say was the one, if you had to say the one biggest thing that you think that your husband learnt from coaching with me, that made you think that the pattern that you guys had had for such a long time could be different going forward. What would it be? It would be the way we handle conflict, 100%. The way that we act in conflict, the way that we treat each other while we're both activated or stressed or going through something difficult and the way that we repair after. Because we certainly have had a good number of blow-ups and having to go in and dig hard and stuff and I feel so much more confident being able to express myself, bring up hard things, say painful things and have him be able to receive it, not dismiss me, not get defensive, actually attempt to understand and hear and same have me be able to do that and not be on the defensive as well. So it's our ability to work through conflict and repair from it is the proof to me that things have changed. We feel with that emotional safety being there is just, it goes into every other part of your life. We're so much more lighthearted, we're more playful. Our intimacy and being able to have that attraction and desire and whatnot is completely different than what it was before. It just changes so much of the relationship when I have felt like I can bring hard things to them and have it be heard and act like it matters to him. [BLANK_AUDIO] Hmm, that's amazing, that's amazing. So, Kelly, I know that you guys didn't go through with the divorce. You are now living together. Can you share what is this new relationship dynamic that you're living in? I hear that you're so much better of a pair. Share a little bit about where you guys are at today. Yeah, we have been full-time living together. Let's see, for the past maybe like three months, we did a very slow integration back to living full-time. He had a year lease on his place, and so we really took advantage of that, you know, available space between the two of us. We, you know, we stayed together for two nights a week, and then it went up to three, and then we slowly, you know, worked our way up, and I think that was a really smart move. We learned from past mistakes on that one, and so that helped a lot. And with that, we both continued to get some space to work on our stuff, and, you know, be able to have that alone time and be able to recharge, and all of the things that come with it. So that was good. Now that we've been together full-time, we actually decided to buy a house. So we are, you know, committing to owning a home. We haven't owned a home yet, and so that's really exciting. We actually went as a family. It's a new construction, so we went as a family once we, the night that we signed the paperwork and wrote on the framing, and, you know, wrote things about us rebuilding something different. We both are very much committed to the rebuilding phase. We are not, I don't think either of us would say like we're there yet, as far as on the other side of all of this, but I think we both are very confident that, and we have a very realistic outlook that the rebuilding phase is critical, and it's exciting, honestly, and we're very confident that it's getting us to that point where we can be on the other side of this with an exhale and say, "Okay, that was hard." Like, we're not risking, you know, falling back into things anymore. We're not that we are now, but it just, it doesn't, it feels like we are very much on the same page trying to grow together, you know, whereas, in the beginning, I felt like I was the only one trying to grow, and then for a while there, he felt like he was the one trying to grow and put in this effort where now finally we're like, "Okay, we're both doing it together. We're finally trying to grow together," and that's a really, really nice place to be. I love that. I'm so excited for you guys that you're buying a house to get, buying a new build construction and writing your name in the framework. That's so beautiful. I love that you guys are doing that. So what would you say, Khalid? So let's talk first to this spouse, to someone that was in your husband's position when you asked for a divorce. It would be your biggest advice, or best advice, rather, that you would give to that person. I think I know what my husband would say. I know he would say, "You have to get to the point of doing the work for yourself. You have to get to where you know that you're wanting to make these changes for you to be as a better person in general, healthier, more secure, more confident, more grounded. That energy is going to serve you well, no matter what happens. And I would definitely echo that after having gone through all of this and just for all of the reasons why this specific dynamic of someone burning out and wanting to leave is so complicated, is because the burnout person doesn't want to be performed for. They don't want to feel like the only reason for change is because of them and trying to get them back. So that energy of getting to a place where you truly want to do the work for yourself is the goal and it feels very scary to release and surrender the relationship. You can simultaneously accept the fact that it might not work out and work on yourself and also love your partner and desperately in the inner being want to be with them above anyone else, but the focus really needs to be on you, shift it onto you, selfishly onto you. Yeah, I can't 100% agree. Do you feel like this could have been accomplished your reconnection, the change in the patterns? Do you think that this was something that could have been done without professional support and coaching your husband? No, not for us. No, I don't. I think we tried. I think we tried. Yeah. What do you think was the, why do you say that? I guess it's my question. I think it's definitely just the energetic investment when you reach out to someone for help. I think you are, you know, vulnerably energetically putting that out in a way that is action and I think action is what, you know, moves the ball and moves the needle. It gets things rolling. So having that intention of saying, I'm going to ask for support here. I think subconsciously just makes a shift, but then also, of course, you get the accountability, you get the support, you get the group and the other people's experiences and you maintain like what you focus on, you're moving toward. If you're focusing on growth and healing and becoming more confident and secure and healthy, then that's what you're moving toward. I think there's this energy behind it that is really, really powerful and I think it's just, you need to have a lot of times people need an objective person to say hard truths or to say something in a different way or to talk with you about it to process. I just think for as hard as this type of sticky, tricky dynamic, you need an objective person to help process through that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I love everything that you shared, Kelly, because I think it's true once you make a decision, once you commit, once you invest, where you put your focus is what you start to grow and I think that everything you shared is just so spot on. And so what would you say to somebody, most of the people who listen to my podcast and interact with me, I go like more on your husband's side of the thing of the situation, but what would you say to somebody that is in your shoes or was in your shoes and is feeling burned out, doesn't know if there's any hope. Maybe they haven't gotten to the point that they're filing for divorce yet, but they're feeling really stuck. They don't know if the pattern will ever change. What would you say to that person? I would tell them that you don't have to make a decision today about what you want to do, whether you want to stay or go. However, clarity follows action. If you feel completely conflicted, do I stay? Do I go, what about the kids? What about money? What about this and logistics? Yet you're like a deep intuitive knowing is like, I can't do this anymore. Staying stuck in that and thinking about it more and processing it more is not going to get you anywhere. So clarity comes with taking action, whether that be having the really hard conversation of saying, this is where I'm at and I am thinking about leaving, that will bring about some clarity of, okay, how are they responding? What can I work with here? Or saying, I'm in a need some space from this for a while. That's going to bring clarity as well. Staying stuck is where so many people end up with the physical symptoms, the autoimmune disorders, the mental health issues as far as just depression or true, just burnout and collapse. You have to take some type of action and that could also just be reaching out for support as well. But thinking about it more is not going to move the needle and get you anywhere closer to where you truly want or need to be. Yeah, exactly. And that's where a lot of people end up. I find even people stay stuck for years and years and years. Yeah. But actually, like you said, taking that action, even if it is just reaching out for help, once you take that action, get out of your head, change can start to happen. So that's amazing. Yeah. Well, Caller, this is been such an incredible conversation. I want to ask you our last question since the podcast is called Love Life Lessons. I would love to know what has been your biggest love or life lesson this year. Oh boy, this whole year. Oh my gosh. I think the lesson that I will take from the year we have had moving forward is the understanding that you have to own your own emotional world and take accountability for how you're showing up on your side of the dynamic and you know separating obviously there is a strong influence between the flow between you know two partners but really being someone who and you've taught us this is embodying the type of person that you just want to be. You know like I said again I've said it a couple times like I didn't like who I became in my marriage. Now this time around or while we're rebuilding I want to show up how I want to show up on in the marriage and not have to feel like I'm being so influenced by his mood you know by his energy whatever it might be. So really owning it and embodying the type of person in the values and the behaviors and whatnot that I truly want to have in my marriage moving forward and then at that point you're making a difference for yourself you know it's like if you're feeling down have a dance party that's obviously going to lift up the mood you know it's just one of those things where you just have to own it for yourself. Yes yes I love it the responsible for your own happiness your own energy incredible. So Cali I know you have some really wonderful social media platforms that you share your story you share about the dynamic that you and your husband win and you have some really wonderful general general prompts where can people find you to hear more about your story. Yes so I am active on both TikTok and Instagram a little bit on Facebook you can search CJ.relationship.burnout on Instagram and then I think my handle is exo exo CJ on on TikTok but either way I talk heavily about this burn out pursuer dynamic because I don't think many people are and there's a lot of people going through very similar situations and it's tricky there's not a great you know if there's not great resources for this specific dynamic and so I talk heavily about my experience and now coming out on the other side and repairing. Yeah yeah amazing while people can definitely go over there and check it out and it's been an absolute pleasure to work with you and your husband to really help you to shift this dynamic permanently so that you can have the kind of relationship that you do feel heard and seen and valued and loved and both of you can really feel like you're rebuilding something new. So it's been such a pleasure to have you on here Cali thank you so much for coming in I know that you're going to help so many people by sharing a story thank you Sophie thank you so much for joining me for today's love life lesson if this episode spoke to you if it opens something in your heart or if you're ready to create deeper connection in your marriage make sure to follow the show so you never miss an episode and if you want to take this work further you will find resources, programs and next steps waiting for you in the show notes I'm rooting for you I believe in you and I believe in your relationship and I will see you in the next episode.