Episode 332

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised Welcome to episode 332 of Sword and Scale show that reveals that the worst monsters are read The final episode of this season was written and produced by Elena Thomas one of our senior producers As this year comes to a close we'd like to say thank you to our entire staff Including producers Evan Ziegleman, Valerie Vernon, Michael Stabil, Mish Barbara Webb Also our engineers Rob Revelli and John McMichael Girty works our customer service whenever you have a problem with your app But you can download by the way Right now in the Google Play Store or the Apple App Store I know we've been losing a few of you the last year or so and We'll try to get you back It's like a guy can't even have a mental breakdown You In early August of the year 2000 just before the new school year was about to begin The heat sat heavy over Mayfield, Kentucky It was still early in the morning and everything was quiet and still The only sounds were the occasional bird chirping on the rooftop of Mayfield Middle School And the floor waxing machines humming inside the building Out behind the school a teacher spotted an unusual dark shape in the grass. I talked in environmental science class and We this was a memorial to a teacher that had died at our school and we always kept fresh flowers and kept it planted and we didn't stuff like that. I went out the door and I just I still had my hand on the door I remember because if I had closed it it would have locked and I saw this sandal laying right by the The door There's a little concrete pad there and I saw the sandal laying there and I just thought you know I wonder what that sandal's doing there and when I looked over to the left is when I saw the body It was hard to tell it was a human body though The corpse was burned to a crisp It just took me a few seconds to try to figure out you know that it was a body and I I just I was still holding on to the door and I just turned around you know, I said to myself I believe that's a body And I went back in the building to find Mr. Almond my principal to tell him and I told him I said Mr. Almond, I think there's a dead body out back And he immediately just started you know running down the hall and We went back out there and Sure enough The next day August 2nd officials used dental records to make an identification The charred woman was confirmed to be 18-year-old Jessica Curran The autopsy offered few answers. It looked like she'd been badly beaten in the head and face But a segment of a black braided leather belt found beside her body is what took center stage Based on that the medical examiner determined that she must have been strangled Because the top half of her body was so badly burned the usual indicators of strangulation weren't there But the belt was enough Just the same there weren't any physical signs of sexual assault But detectives had found Jessica's ripped underwear near her body. So the assumption was made Over by the glass doors of the school they found a clump of Jessica's hair and some suspicious smudging near the door handle Jessica hadn't gone down without a fight Here are a couple of detectives from the Mayfield police department It's obvious even that part you tell that there's even as much as good thing for anything But I mean you look like hands have been you know like this smudged over there. So In with the clump of hair there, it certainly appeared to have been some type of struggle We're at somebody trying to get in or so the door open You figure with that kind of violence. I mean Big smash back where he had her nose is driven up into I mean this part is driven up into the brain It's actually I mean sit and she sit pretty hard and she was she was tagged hard Very painful had to be so he figured blood's battering somewhere So probably did but with all the rain that washes away and then and then they found later that there was still on blood there And it drained there so most of it happened pretty close to there and definitely the burning happened there because the grass is far The grass around her body was scorched Detectives took that to mean she was set on fire right there in that spot not burned elsewhere and moved This was assumed to be a violent bloody struggle But there was no blood evidence found at the scene After all Jessica had been laying in the spot behind the middle school for two days or more Because of the environmental damage the medical examiner was limited and what he could say for sure He listed strangulation as the cause of death the rest possible head and facial injuries Couldn't be pinned down with certainty And truth there wasn't much left to go on What everyone hoped though is that Jessica died before she was set on fire From what we gathered it was from the autopter for we don't know for sure There's no way to kill Perfectly other there's no soot in there to which you would have breathed any any soot at that point so I mean Honestly, we're hoping she's dead before she's set on fire Forensic evidence can give you an approximate time of death and tell you how someone was killed But it can't tell you who a person truly was 18-year-old Jessica Curran came from a notable local family her dad Joe Curran was the definition of mayfield High school football church on Sundays a small business and Eventually captain of the fire department Can you picture it? Typical Americana stereotype The dark irony of the situation was not lost on anyone When his daughter was killed Joe believed his town would rally and discover the truth Years later though he would still be asking for it. She was Pretty tiny. I think she was about seven pounds or so and she was going to lower after she grew up She was more like five nine or so Long legs tall Next son came three years later and She was pretty much a mother for him. She packed him around all the time She recorded this football game. She recorded his basketball games and We could tell most of the time when she did a recording. Most of the time recording was only on him but wasn't on the team. It was just on him I thought that was so funny I'm like who scored the points and who else is playing on this team She's had everything on Josh. She showed everything on him She said like nobody else was on the team. You could hear a hollering form. Go Josh. Go Josh She really loved her brothers She really loved her family But soon Jessica grew up She wasn't a little girl anymore caring for her brothers. She was a young woman who had just entered adulthood and found herself unexpectedly pregnant It wasn't a happy time I wasn't ready for that at that time But she was older enough and I know she had been seeing a few guys and I I knew it was a possibility Now this was a community where word got around People were talking about who the father of Jessica's son Zion might be and why he might have wanted Jessica dead Within two months two local men were under the microscope At the time of a murder baby Zion was only seven months old When she first had him she thought Zion's father was a guy she really liked someone named Marcus But there was a possibility That it was another man Someone Jessica really Didn't like do you know Jessica? Yes, I know How did you know Jessica? I met her at Grace County high school. We went to school together. We had a math class together and we just started interacting with one another and Started hanging out became pretty good friends. Consider her one of my best friends. Well, that night had to have been the night she got pregnant. So she probably conceived that night because the person she was seeing on the regular her sexual partner was Marcus Morris. And she swore of that to the baby. She just knew that to the baby's daddy was because I mean, for real, it was one time with Jeremy, you know, and she we didn't even think about that night because we hadn't even seen the dude since then, you know. And so when the baby was born, she was trying to get child support ordered for Marcus or whatever and they'd done a DNA test and it came back negative. Or however they come back, it wasn't his. And so she called me and she told me and she's like Jessica, the only other person that could be is Jeremy Adams. According to her best friend, Jessica was devastated and for good reason. When we were hanging out and we first started hanging out, she wasn't really dating anyone. There was a few, I mean, we just hung out with people. We didn't really date. We would go to football games and, you know, just things like that with our kids. And then she did start saying Jeremy Adams, but it wasn't a date thing. It was a hangout thing. So we all went back to my house and we hung out or whatever. And that night, he kind of forcibly took her around the building and they had sex. It was like two seconds. They were around there and came back and he walked off. And that was that. And then we didn't really see him again. We didn't really hang out with him again or anything because he felt uncomfortable about that. Okay. They filled in a new interview. State police has never contacted you. No. Okay. Rumors that Jeremy was the father of Jessica's baby gave rise to theories. This was only fueled by the indicators that there had been a struggle at the middle school, the clump of Jessica's hair, the smudges on the glass doors, and a baby that might not be his. All this put him right there in the crosshairs of the investigation. The circle soon widened to include Carlos Saxton, who moved in Jeremy's orbit. And according to Mayfield police was with him the night they went looking for Jessica. They would both face indictment. Jeremy with murder and Carlos as an accomplice to murder. The audio you're about to hear is from the grand jury proceeding. Look, you state your name for the record. You check it, you see on the floor. I'm telling how you're employed by the city and I feel that it is detected. So if you were, let's sell the grand jury what happened and how you got about the investigation and what we are. Apparently Jeremy Adams had a sellmate at the county jail named Jesse. Well, Jesse desperately wanted to tell authorities what Jeremy had shared with him while they were locked up together. Jesse is very distraught. Crime said that this is bothering him. That's the reason he wanted to talk to us. He never mentioned anything about any money. And he primed stoppers. Nothing to just just was very distraught about this. Jesse seemed genuinely terrified at the prospect of sharing a sell with a murder. So scared, in fact, that he requested a different so may. Eventually, he even requested to be transferred to a different facility. Here's Jesse statement. I'm January the 15th. You haven't came to myself while me and two other inmates were there and started talking about Jessica's case at the end and they just statement that they've been seeing Jessica and that she had nested around with someone and then he was talking about an argument and her lying out of her brown sandal and didn't get so hard that it turns in now. Then he made the statement that her real life cannings had been tore off and fell beside her and that she had been killed in one spot and drove to another. He also one time said something about after she was burned and turned over about the blade of hair being stuck to the ground and said something about not wanting his girlfriend and finding out about the baby they had together. These are a lot of details that as far as I know weren't public knowledge at the time. And if Jeremy had a girlfriend, that's another possible motive. Jeremy stated that he didn't want his girlfriend to find out that he had a baby with another woman. Based on all of this, a grand jury returned indictments for both Jeremy and Carlos. The cases were slowly headed towards trial. Jeremy was set for February of 2003, but less than a week before the start date a judge dismissed the case entirely. The reason? Maybe a police had failed to turn over audio and video evidence. They had, you know, fucked up a procedural thing. Some paperwork, some nonsense. And that was that. Jessica's family felt they knew who had done this. Jeremy's soulmate was certain. He was the one who had killed Jessica, but now Jeremy was walking free. Here's Jessica's dad. I was really happy about that at all. I felt like they finally got somebody and now they're releasing them. I remember the first time that I, after the case had went, they had released the first three and me and my wife went to Walmart. And I know a lot of people have been around this area all my entire life. And I went in Walmart and I would see somebody that I knew and I was friends with. Then I always speak too talk to or shake hands with. And they would turn away. And some of them wouldn't know what to say. And some of them would just turn and go a different direction to avoid me. And that night, I realized what an impact it had on the community. The people here. So I went back to the car. I told my wife, I'm not going to put those people through that. They really didn't know what to say to me. What do you say to a person who's lost her daughter? And then they released the people. They really didn't know what to say. What do you say? For years, Jessica's murder sat unsolved. But sometimes the person who breaks a case doesn't carry a badge. And Kentucky, a homemaker, named Susan Galbreath, decides Jessica's murder shouldn't fade into the shadows. If you've spent any time at all in the Facebook community, especially the true crime community, you'll know that there's a whole lot of these people out there. They call themselves, I guess, web sleuths or armchair detectives or I don't know, any number of things. But they got a whole lot of time on their hands and they spend it trying to solve cold cases, often to the detriment of the official investigation. Anyway, Susan Galbreath was one of these people and she says she was at the crime scene that day and when she saw Jessica's body, she knew she had to help. So she starts small with a phone, a list of names and the patients to call dozens of people. She keeps notes about things that don't sit right with her. She shows up with questions and lets people talk. Tips all start landing in one place. Susan's notebook. Bit by bit doors that stayed closed for a law enforcement open for her. Officials learn her name, reporters do also. And for the first time in a long time, this case feels like it might actually be solvable by a determined woman with a stubborn streak. This is the part that really makes you want to believe in humanity, at least a little bit. The crazy and hopeful idea that an armchair detective can do what the system can't or won't. Because it looks like maybe, just maybe. Susan would be the one to solve the murder of Jessica Curran. In August of the year 2000, the charred body of 18-year-old Jessica Curran was found behind a middle school in Mayfield, Kentucky. The autopsy leaned on a piece of braided belt that was found nearby. So the medical examiner deduced that the cause of death was strangulation. The early case zeroed in on a man named Jeremy Adams and his friend Carlos Saxton. They were both indicted, but in 2003, the cases were dismissed after discovery violations. Years passed without answers until 2004, when a Kentucky homemaker and self-proclaimed citizen sleuth put the case back up on the map. Susan Galbreath had no law enforcement an experience and had never done any real detective work. But sitting alone at home, she started investigating. Remind me when you said you became interested in this case? Did you have contact with the current rep at the time? This new job that had fallen into her lap was the one she knew she couldn't do alone. No shooting for the moon, she started reaching out to celebrities like Oprah Winfrey and Julia Roberts. Most never wrote back, of course. I mean, I doubt they even see their own fan mail. But one person did. Not any of the A-listers, but a guy named Tom Mangold, a veteran BBC journalist in London. Susan it seems had cast a very wide net. Her matter of fact, email landed in Tom's inbox and he answered it. In quick succession, he shelled out his own cash, bought a plane ticket and flew to Kentucky. I don't think Susan herself is quite sure what it was, particularly grabbed her about the Jessica Karen case. If I had to hazard a guess and I've never really done more than guess about it, I think she has a kind of own Brockovich dimension which came out at that particular time. And I think it's still there and I think it could come out again tomorrow. You're asking me why did I sense the story? I'd wonder stars. I mean, it seemed to me that here was a very interesting situation where you have a murder world, murders pretty commonplace everywhere in the Western world. But you had somebody who was absolutely dedicated to finding who the culprits were. Didn't quite know why she was so dedicated and was up against what was effectively a corrupt police force totally failed a series of investigations, but just plowed on and on without any particular benefit to herself. By the spring of 2004, Tom Mangold was on the ground reporting with Susan. He once was a journalist reporting on wars, organized crime in UK politics. Now he was in Mayfield, Kentucky reporting on a young woman's murder. Susan opened doors and Tom put a spotlight on what they were hearing. In the fall of the same year, Tom put the case under the microscope with an article called Murder in a small town. Around the same time, the state's investigative arm, the newly built Kentucky Bureau of investigation, got involved. In 2005, two women who had already been interviewed years earlier, Victoria Caldwell and Venetia Stubblefield changed their stories. Those new statements taken by state investigators now pointed to an entirely different suspect. They asked you to make this, I don't know. I mean, that's really going to make this thing because we really want you to like, like, or, um, fancy, cross. These re-interviews were done in a hotel conference room, for some reason. People who had told one story the first time around were now telling an entirely different story. But KBI ate up every bit of it. Susan Galbreath was happy to see her cunning detective work finally paying off. You're fully confident in the results that you've got, obviously. I am. Yes. I interviewed Quincy Cross. I spent about an hour and a half long interview with him and in that interview, Tom told me, don't expect a confession, and so I didn't. But the truth never changes, but lies do. In that interview, he gave me some telling information that I knew had never been made public. I remember at the time screaming pretty much to the state police that, you know, this is enough to arrest him right here. Did it happen now? But I definitely believe they've got the rights covered with Quincy Cross. Quincy Cross was Victoria's cousin's boyfriend. Victoria tells KBI that somehow everyone involved knew they were going to be interviewed by the Mayfield police. And 15-year-old Victoria says she was told to lie to divert attention away from Quincy. She says she obeyed. Victoria is for statements to KBI were cautious. She says she just overheard her cousin talking to Quincy Cross about the case. And that's where she was getting her information. But after numerous follow-up interviews that summer, her story crystallized. Victoria's statements would implicate six people in total, including herself. By the time she took the stand in 2008, her story had become sharper, more linear, and much more disturbing. And that's when Quincy and Tamara and this white guy remember their name, but they had pulled up to my house. You said you remember this first night? Yeah. It was Jeffrey. My cousin asked me if I wanted to take a ride with them. And I was like, yeah, because she's older than me, you know, so it's holding out older people. So then I get into the car with them, which I got into the back seat. They picked up Anisha. Anisha had mentioned that Jessica had me drive a party and I guess nobody wanted to get her right. So I don't remember what said, but Quincy and Tamara had something to each other. And they were like, okay, the local pick her up. Jessica gets into the car. When we got to the white guy's house, they had gotten out, we all had gotten out, but they had pulled up just to get out the car with them, kind of like forcing her to get out the car. And they go inside and then they go into this bedroom. The white guy had left me and had went into the room with them and they came right back out, but then I heard yelling and screaming, so I was wondering what the hell was going on. And so I opened the door and that's when I had the camera holding Jessica down and Quincy was over with the belt around her neck. And Quincy was kind of over her, kind of like over her stomach, but I was in my area. And he had a belt that he got from his pants and had put her on her neck. And she was just, I remember her spade that she had a little boy and she just kept playing on Zion, but they didn't let her up and I just went back all the room real quick. And I had just sat down on that couch and I just ran back in there again. And that's when I was like, she's not breathing. So I touched her neck and I told him like she was dead. Victoria says her cousin, Tamra, took some photos of Quincy with Jessica's body. These photos were never found. When the pictures that I saw, Tamra had to take a couple of those pictures because he like had his private area out and I was like kind of torched her lips with his lips. Was this before or after she was murdered? That's what I mean by they were getting off on it. Victoria says they wrapped Jessica's body in a blanket and threw her in at the trunk of the car. They drove around for a while and eventually ended up in the Mayfield middle school. Okay, so they stopped at the school and who gets the body out of the trunk? Um, first Quincy and the wide eye tried to lift the body out of the trunk, but they couldn't. So Tamra went to the back and helped them lift the body out. Okay. And what do they do with the body then? They lay it on in the flower bed area, where the flower bed is. Okay. And then what happens? They, I don't remember if they took the blanket off, I don't remember. They Quincy poured the gas on her and Venetia had threw the match. Where did you pour the gas? I don't know if the majority of the gas poured on. It was her face. I'm not hallucinating. Okay. So he pours the gas. What does he do with the cup? Um, I don't remember what he did with the cup, because after he poured the gas and Venetia threw the match by ran. Okay. So Quincy, everybody gets their story again. Gary Adams is going to be the first. was there any discussion why did Jeremy Adams name come into who's idea was that? That was one of these because I guess Jeremy ought to be running. Okay was there a mention was there any mention about that anybody know that Jeremy ever had a relationship with Jessica? How did she know that? I don't know. Domin has not just for a long time but my understanding. But it wasn't just Victoria Caldwell who had changed her story and agreed to testify. Venetia Stubblefield wasn't a primary witness but she corroborated pieces of Victoria's story. This included the others that were implicated in Victoria's version of events. A man named Jeff Burton the owner of the house she testified that the murder happened in. Her cousin Tamara Caldwell and a guy named Austin Leach and someone named Isaac Benjamin. All this testimony gave the jury a cohesive chain from the house to the car to the middle school. Victoria also testified that after that day Quincy Caldwell claiming the belt used to kill Jessica was his and offered Victoria money to keep quiet. The Commonwealth put all of this in front of a jury. There were no dramatic forensics there was no hard physical evidence and no confession from Quincy. It was all a narrative built from testimony with Victoria Caldwell at the center of it all and it worked. Ultimately the jury decided this group of people were guilty and that Quincy Cross was the ringleader. After being found guilty on charges of murder, first-degree rape, first-degree sawdemy, abuse of a corpse and tampering with evidence Quincy was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. After the trial guilty verdict and sentencing, numerous questions still hung in the air. When a case leans this hard on human stories, some of them changing over time, how should we weigh them? What's the standard? People forget things and get things wrong all of the time. We know that. We've seen it. So what do you do with human testimony? As you can imagine, I get presented with cases many times a day all day. I mean, you know, that's one of the things about being known in this space, right? A lot of people need help and if they're smart and you know, and they have the ability, they're going to reach out. So this is Jason Flum. He's a veteran record executive turned innocents advocate. Whether you think you're the next big pop star or you're wrongfully convicted, he's the guy to call. But I first heard about this case from a guy in prison in Mississippi who I've been trying to help for some time now. His name is Sharon Edwards, but he calls himself Sherlock Homeboy. He's a great guy. He's not an innocent guy, but it's a complicated case. But anyway, Sharon Sherlock enjoys researching cases around the country and bringing them to me when he finds cases of actual innocence. So he spends his time at the law librarian and he brought me the case of Quincy Cross. And when I heard about it, I just was flown away. I mean, I hear so many crazy cases, but the deeper you get into this one, it's like layers of a rotten onion. You just keep peeling them and it just keeps smelling worse and worse and you go, wow, how could this be? And then I came to find out, sorry for my rant here, but I came to find out that the two dads, Quincy Cross's dad and Jessica Kern's dad have been aligned for many, many years now, working together to try to get justice. David Cross wants, wants justice for his son, who's wrongfully convicted. And Mr. Kern believes, wants justice for his daughter. And he has, he's unequivocal in that he doesn't believe they got the right person. And so it's so such an unusual and powerful alignment to have the two dads working together when one would think that they would be mortal enemies. If the people who lived this case say Quincy isn't the killer, what do they know that the jury didn't? One of the things that makes this case so maddening is the idea that first thing they did was they assigned a rookie cop, well, a rookie, a guy who had just been promoted to detective. He was a patrolman up until, you know, I don't know, days or weeks before this happened in a place that has hadn't had a murder in over a year. And they assigned this guy Tim Fortner, who has said that he thinks that they were setting him up to fail. He didn't know anything. He didn't even know to secure the crime scene. They threw out evidence like lots of evidence. They threw out the maggots that were on the body. Sorry for that detail because she had been dead for some time, which would have helped to determine how long she had been there for. They threw out all sorts of other evidence. And they allowed people to sort of trape through the crime scene, which is, you know, again, give me your random teenager and they would know from watching crime shows on their laptop that were their iPad. You don't do that, right? But Tim was, Tim was way over his head. But there was a lot of stuff going on. I mean, the Mayfield Police Department was hopelessly corrupt and that's not speculation, right? That's been proven. The head guy there, Ronnie Lear, was almost comically corrupt and was, you know, indicted and charged and convicted of all sorts of, you know, all sorts of crimes. You know, when he cleared out, when he was fired from the police department, they cleared out his desk. They found, as his successor said, they found enough drugs for half of Mayfield in his desk. And they found guns that weren't post police weapon and they weren't registered to him. And they don't know who it belonged to. He was, he was caught stealing from the evidence room and selling various items. I mean, he was, he was, he was a, he was a character. And into this mess, Center Susan Galbreath, the professional armchair detective. You know, Susan Galbred, yes or I do. And she was involved in the investigation of this case, was she not? Yes, she has nothing to do with law enforcement, doesn't she? No, she's right. Yeah. She was actually involved and present during a racial questioning of witnesses, was she not? Official questioning of witnesses. In other words, we look at transcripts where they say person's present. And we'll see to you and why so Neil Galbred, someone so, so, so careful, she was at any interview. That's possible. She was, you know, bizarrely almost anointed, uh, deputized, someone who had no experience, no background in law enforcement or any investigative experience or anything. She wasn't a journalist. She was just a homemaker who they allowed to run roughshod over this case. And she was given full access to everything. And sure enough, she got her way and she got some awards. And she's not around anymore. But, um, she, she died relatively young, I guess. But she left a trail of bodies in her wake that is really, um, it's really extraordinary. Did you have an interest in criminal law in general? Well, when I was a child, I either wanted to be a commuter or a police officer. So I'm neither, of course. But I've just always had a fascination with the law and things like that. Did you take an interest in other cases prior to this one? Yeah, I've, like, found court TV stuff like that. And so I, of course, was at the time, there was so many murders in Mayfield going on that it, I was, I was just, you know, dumbfounded by it. It was just, you know, and here was another one and it just, all of them kind of captured an interest in me, you know. So I had detected a sneaker and I, uh, threw a detective mills, became pointed in. So I started anytime I had anything that I could give him, I would call him that, you know, just a reminder, this was quite literally a random, unemployed woman calling to interview people, taking notes and reporting back to authorities. And they were taking her seriously. They should tell you something about the state and effectiveness of government more than anything. That is if you're smart enough to pay attention. The audio you've been hearing, by the way, is from her testimony at Quincy Cross's trial. That's how deeply she was integrated into this case. She was definitely a key piece of it. They really didn't have much else. They had some circumstantial evidence that even after it was disproven, they clung to and they kept reinforcing it and hitting the jury over the head with it figuratively. And, you know, but there's so much to process because it's such a crazy web of lies and corruption. And, you know, and nine people arrested for this prime under these walls. backed out theories and, you know, several of whom ended up in prison, and Quincy's the only one who's still in prison, but some of them, you know, there were people who were forced to testify in a certain way and then have recanted all the way, this is recanted. And there's no physical evidence of any kind. All these years later, as we know now, there's none. There's zero evidence connecting any of the people who eventually were targeted, and I believe framed for this horrible crime to the crime itself or to Jessica. And what we know now is that most of them didn't even know each other at the time that they supposedly committed this crime together. Things that make you go, hmm, right? That pointed towards, you know, some of the people who ended up in the crosshairs of the law enforcement, but how those things unravel is breathtaking. When 18-year-old Jessica Curran's body was found behind a Mayfield middle school in 2000, the crime scene was handled sloppily, to say the least. Evidence went missing. The Mayfield Police Department was corrupt, and as a result, they dropped the ball, and the ball fell through the grate and into the sewer. Their original suspect, Jeremy Adams, slipped through their incompetent fingers. Then, after a year of stagnation, a new storyline formed around Susan Galbroth, the local sleuth. Suddenly, memories started to change. With Susan's help, Victoria Caldwell and a few others came forward to law enforcement with their new story, that Quincy Cross had killed Jessica Curran. But there are glaring issues with this second attempt at justice. We know the justice system is flawed, but digging into the intricacies of a case like this reveals just how deep the roots of corruption can grow. This is a complicated story, but if you've been listening to our show for many years, you'll keep up just fine. You're not a sword and scale regular listener, and you don't know what you're doing, right? I mean, that doesn't make you mean you're gonna be right all the time, but you're more informed than 99% of the general public who you're listening to sword and scale regular basis. So I'm a podcast fan, and I true crime podcasts are my jam, and maybe that sounds terrible, but it's true. But this one, I believe, is as good as any that you've ever heard that I've ever heard. Jason Flum isn't just a huge name in the music industry. He's one of the founding members of the Innocence Project. I'm sure you've heard of it. And I'm not just being nice to him because he's kissing my ass. My origin story goes back to 1993 when I randomly picked up a newspaper on my way into taxi to go somewhere, and there was a story about a kid named Stephen Lennon who was serving 15 to life on a non-violent first defense cocaine possession charge in a maximum security prison in New York State. And it was in the paper because his mother, who was just a mother who wanted her son back, right? She wasn't like a any influential person, had no particular means. He was just a regular, everyday person from Rome, New York. And she had been petitioning for clemency for her son. He had already been in for eight years. He was 32. I was 32. At this point, I had been sober almost eight years, and I was like, this is too close for comfort. That could have been me, right? I'm not a religious guy, but there but for the grace of whatever you believe in goes eye, right? So a major political figure at the time had asked the governor to grant clemency to her son, and he had refused, which is why it was in the newspaper. So I just thought this is insane. I didn't know that we put people in prison for 15 years to life for a non-violent first defense cocaine possession charge. I was like, this is, you know, it freaked me out. And I decided I had to try to do something, knowing nothing at all. I'm a 32-year-old and our guy aspiring to make my way into music industry. And I called the mother on the phone. Her name was Shirley. Her name number was in the phone book luckily. I offered to send some money to get a new lawyer. She said they exhausted all their appeals and it was hopeless. And one thing led to another, I called up the only criminal defense lawyer I knew at the time. We got a Bob Kalina. He represented Stone double pilots in Skid Row and they were getting arrested weekly back then. Those are your listeners who are old enough to remember. I would remember that. Got him to agree. He agreed to take the case pro bono. He said it was hopeless, but he was going to try. And six months later we ended up in a courtroom in Malone, New York. And I sat there holding Mrs. Lenin's hand. Her husband Stan was on the other side. Steven was there in shackles as if he was some, you know, serial killer or something, right? And said not violent for his offender. And the judge was this old guy with white hair and I was like, this is not going to go well, but it did. And he banged that gavel down and sensed even home. And that was my moment. I said, this is, I didn't know I had a superpower, but if I do, this is it. And I'm going to use it as much as I can for as long as I can. And I've never looked back. I've never stopped. That's literally half a lifetime ago for me. So from there, I learned about an organization called Families Against Mandatory Minimums, now called FAMM. I became their first board member. And soon after that, I learned about the work of the Innocence Project. Barry Sheck and Peter Newfeld had started the Innocence Project in the early 90s. And what I saw on TV was even another level of insanity, which was a case where this guy had been scheduled to be executed. And these guys, these two geniuses had come along with their law books and their microscopes and their knowledge of science. And they found the DNA and they identified it and they proved that he could not have been the person that committed this crime. And he was not only not executed, he was freed. And I said, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. And I rushed down to their office and I walked in and I said, I don't know what you guys need me to do. But I'll do it. And I'll do more. And so myself and a guy named Jack Taylor became the first two board members of the Innocence Project, so founding board member, not the founders because the founders are Barry and Peter, but you know, who are heroes of mine. And so I've been working on these issues ever since and I'll never stop as long as I'm breathing. Jason's decades of experience have helped him and his team to suss out false claims of innocence. Sometimes a guy saying he's been wrongfully convicted really did commit the crime. In fact, that's often the case. But Jason is confident that this isn't what happened with Quincy Cross. I'm so glad I get the opportunity to tell you the story. So after I heard about the case from Sherlock Homeboy, there's another case, another Kentucky case I've been working on for some time of a guy named James Mallory and he's been in prison. Oh my god, for I mean, pretty much since he was 11. I've been working on trying to help free him and I happened to be on the phone with him not too long after I first heard about this crazy case. And I said to him, James, you're not gonna believe this. I just got involved in another Kentucky case. It's this horrible case where this poor girl was 18 years old and you know, just a beautiful young girl starting her life and, you know, was set on fire behind the middle school and he goes, oh, you're talking about Quincy Cross case? I'm like, yeah, Quincy Cross, he goes, oh man, he goes, that motherfucker's innocent. I'm like, he's like, what? He goes, oh, yeah, he says, I'm, he's, I'm, he's definitely, and I know he's innocent. I go, how do you know he's innocent? He goes, man, I was in jail with him. He says, he's a good dude. He goes, I read his transcripts. I know the case inside and out. That guy's definitely innocent. I go, he's definitely is. And he goes, no, I'm telling you, he's really, really innocent. I go, how you say these really, really, really innocent. He said, well, because dude, he goes, that actual killer was my cellmate. He goes, look it up in the DOC records. And he confessed to me and everybody else in the jail. And he goes, I know every detail of the case. He told it all to me. And he goes, and I'm from that area. So I recognize, I know some of the people, the cellmate this guy said had confessed to the murder was Jeremy Adams. I was like, oh my god, what are the odds of this? And you know, the first thing I did was call, and she called Barry Shack at the end of this project. I said, Barry, is this hearsay? He goes, no, that's a statement against interest. If he actually, and I said to James, I don't want to put you in a bad way. Like if you're, you know, I don't want you to be labeled as somebody who told on somebody who confessed to you said, no, no, in this case, it doesn't matter because he confessed to so many people and everybody here knows that Quincy ain't the guy. So he goes, I'll sign affidavits. I'll do whatever you want. I don't know the exact number, but there could be as many as 15 people who have come forward either with affidavits or with statements that Jeremy confessed to them. And let's not forget that Jessica's best friend, someone who hasn't changed her story over the years told police that Jessica knew her baby's father had to be one of two men. She had a paternity test done and it came back negative for the first guy. So, you know, but let's now take a moment and revisit people who did change their stories because that's the crux of the case. There were witnesses who have come forward and talked about how the Kentucky Bureau of Investigation, state police threatened them with really terrible things taking their children away. sending them to prison for the rest of their life, jabbing them with a needle. They conducted these very unorthodox interrogations in a hotel instead of at the police station. You know, the whole thing is really pretty grotesque. And when you hear what you will hear, these people come forward and tell their truth, the pain is palpable as they talk about how they were made to lie under these threats and they were kids, you know, so they were, they were kids. Some of them were troubled. One was a crack, you know, was addicted to crack. And that's how you end up in this situation. Jason hosts his own podcast called "Rongful Conviction." He's the founder of the parent company Lava For Good, a media company that partners with the Innocence Project. His team spent several years digging into the case. And the result was a full season of their show "Bone Valley." Go check it out on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. At first, when the team reached out to interview Victoria Caldwell, she seemed almost afraid to talk about the case. - I don't know, I might wanna talk about it. I don't want to get to see people off and they're very powerful too. - That's a lot for what kind of way. - What should be powerful? You're making me nervous. Maybe I should have everything to have in this conversation. And do very well for people. - Eventually, they coaxed Victoria and others to talk. - I really feel like my, I guess my statement that I gave on video was stopped. I'm not just talking, but I was told what to say. - Why? - And people could see these crack cities. - Who was telling you what to say? - I'm wanting to learn to the KBS. - How did they get you to say what they got you to say? - What happened? - They told me they was gonna need all my arm on the elevator at the jury. So it's calling jury in a duke a duke a duke. - In case you couldn't understand what she was saying in context, Victoria says they threatened to do all this at the jury in in Paduca, Kentucky. That's the hotel KBI conducted the interviews at. Venetia Stubblefield, the peripheral witness who corroborated parts of Victoria's second version of events signed an affidavit admitting that she gave false testimony at the behest of law enforcement. Another witness admitted that she had been willing to testify for money and said that officers threatened to put her in jail or take her kids away if she didn't keep lying. And remember all of these people were implicated by the story. They served their short sentences and years later they've recanted. Sounds like a bunch of shitty police work if you ask me. But hey, what am I other than an internet sleuth? - They took plea deals 'cause Quincy went to trial first and he, when he was convicted and sentenced to life for the other people, they were looking at a similar fate and if they were offered a deal, it's this Sophie's choice but you can't blame them for taking it. This is some small town stuff and if you're looking at, you know, basically a living death sentence, right? And the prosecutor should certainly in Quincy's case ask for him to get the death penalty. Then I, you know, that's a choice that you can, I hope nobody that's listening ever has to make that choice but you can understand how that choice could have been made by people who were actually innocent, it happens all the time. Well, unsurprisingly, the lowest sentences were the ones who testified for the government, had two of them and there's so many people that were nine, right? And I can't even keep them all straight in my head but when you hear the podcast, you'll know 'cause that's the awesome power of the government, right? They can say to you, you know, you give us information on so and so and you know, we're gonna, we're gonna make sure things go well for you. So the sentences were, I mean, almost ceremonial in those cases, right, because if that's the right word. - And the power of the government doesn't stop there in this case. Jason's team at Lava For Good and the Kentucky Innocence Project separately uncovered evidence that Victoria Caldwell had been paid by the state and was essentially put in their witness protection program, relocating her to North Carolina and funding her entire lifestyle while the case was being built. Records show that the Attorney General's Office and Kentucky State Police were reimbursing her from February 2007 through January of 2008, almost a year. They paid for rent, utilities, groceries, restaurants, gas, car repairs, clothing, phone cards, and even purchases from places like sex shops. Yeah, yeah, that's where your taxes are gone. Believe it or not. - I read an article from some time ago that there was a rumor that some cop named O'Neal, the next officer, was there ever any monetary exchange between your hands? - What do you mean monetary? - Money. Did he send you money at all? - He'd always given me money. - Okay, when you say money, what kind of money? Like we talked my couple hundred bucks just to get by or we talked my couple grand to help. - More than a couple grand, but he's always taking care of him. - Is it cash, check? - No, cash, always cash. - You mean in public places or he comes to you? How's that work? - No, he comes to my house. - At trial, when the defense asked about this, KBI downplayed it, acting as if they'd only paid for rent and utilities. This wasn't a nice-lated incident either. Another state witness said officers paid her $100 to make controlled calls. Cash for cooperation. All while she was in the grips of drug addiction. But all of this is just the tip of the iceberg. Let's get back to Susan Galbreath and Tom Mangold for the moment. Susan was actually the very first person to put Victoria Caldwell in touch with the Kentucky Bureau of Investigation for a second round of questioning. She steered the narrative prosecutors eventually ran with and she had a motive much deeper than just a cursory interest in this case. - She was in a relationship with the mother of the obvious suspect, Jeremy Adams. And it seems like she found something to do. I think she was bored and she found this opportunity to become famous, important, whatever way she was after. And at the same time helped to steer the cops away from the son of her partner of a relationship. Whatever they want to call that to her lover. And then of course, in order to finish that job, she had depended on somebody else. - And to think that this woman was allowed behind the crime scene tape. She was given backstage access to the evidence rooms, told authorities who to interview, sat in those very same police interviews, discussed her theories with the Kentucky State Police and even testified at Quincy's trial. She inserted herself into this crime to a degree that is unprecedented. - I don't think we'll ever know all of it because there weren't records made of all the conversations. But what we do know is that she was given a level of access that is confounding to say the least. And not just access but the influence. She was allowed to steer the investigation as if she was some senior official empowered to run roughshod over this whole thing. And all those years later, she starts building this case based entirely on circumstantial evidence and rumors and in UNDO. And then that takes on a life of its own when the authorities get involved and start getting these people in a room. Again, a room in a hotel. It is a hotel, but I don't want to conjure up something fancy. It certainly wasn't anything fancy. But why? Why? Why? Why? I mean, wouldn't you want it? I mean, how basic is it to take someone to the police station and do it there? But hotel interviews are really at the bottom of the list when it comes to the issues with this case. - It's really heartbreaking. Not just because of what happened to Quincy who got the worst of it because he got life without parole and he's been in for almost a quarter of a century. But what happened to these other people, the ones who were forced to testify or the ones who just got caught up in it because of Susan, I mean, Jeff Burton, who's a white kid who got caught up in this. He never met Quincy. He doesn't know anything about this. He wasn't a troubled kid. He was a good kid. He was a young father making his way. But when Susan became convinced that there was a couple of white people involved. She just-- just went searching for some white people that she could sort of rope into this thing. And she found out that there was a couple of parties in Mayfield, one of the knights in question. She found out he was at one of the parties, and that was good enough. And so literally, he knows nothing about this, and he ended up serving, you know, many years in prison, and still suffering to this day. And the ripple effect of all of this, how it hurts the community, taking him, just take Jeffrey alone, leaving aside, you know, so many of the other people who were wrongly targeted, and ultimately so badly hurt. You know, Benesha, Victoria, Jeff Burton, we talked about, Tamara, Caldwell. Each one of those people has people that love them, some of them had children, that they left behind. All of them have scars that don't easily heal, you know, from this horrific experience of being betrayed by people who their taxes go to pay, in service of somebody who skated. Quincy was convicted in 2008. He lost his first appeals by 2010. After three more attempts to get his case revisited, he was denied. For several years now, Jason, his team at Lava for Good and the Innocence Project, have been pulling out all the stops, trying to free him. - I call Joe Kern. I spoke to David Cross, the dads of the victim and the, and the, and the role of the convicted man. (sniffing) I believe he's wrongfully convicted. Again, listen, make your own judgment. And I said, I gotta help. And one of the things I've done over the years is try to appeal to governors and even presidents for clemency in situations where I know wrong has been done. And it's a, it's a power that's vested in these people because they are the last, you know, stopgap in the system that gets it wrong far too often. You know, there's that great saying from the English jurisprudence, William Blackstone, who said it's better than 10 guilty men go free than that one innocent should suffer. And so in this case, I thought, let me try to reach out to the governor, you know, because this, this has got to change. And when you've got the victim's father advocating for the guy who's wrongfully convicted, that's powerful. You know, that should go a long way. I feel connected to Kentucky. You know, my, my wife's father is Muhammad Ali. So, you know, he's a Louisville. So I reached out, I didn't, I don't know the governor. I met him only once. I actually had, at the Ali Center in Louisville, but only for a minute. But I didn't know him back then. I'd never met him. But I was able to get somebody in a position of significant power and influence in the highest levels of government. I won't name names on the phone. And I figured it would give me three or four minutes, just to, I don't want to say humor in me because there's nothing funny about it, but to, you know, play Kate me. And I ended up speaking to this person for 26 minutes. I remember that because I remember looking at my phone and going, "Damn, that was a long conversation." And he was like, "Oh my God, this is the craziest case." And, you know, Mayfield, Kentucky, there was a tornado there recently. And, you know, you know, the mayor and, you know, we're going to get involved. Like this is, this is got, you know, he was like, he was almost breathless. And I've never had a conversation with a person in a position like that. I've had a lot of conversations, but never with somebody who's like, "So enthused to get involved in help." Usually it's very, you know, monotonal, you know, relatively curt. And then he called me back that night at home. Kids running around, making noise in the background. He's like, "I just want to make sure I got this straight." And he's going through details of the thing. And I'm like, "Oh my God, I called Mr. Cross." I'm like, "I think we're going to get somewhere with this." This is, I mean, I hate to say that 'cause you never want to raise expectations. And I was like, "This is unbelievable." This, this, this really seems like they're really interested in this injustice. And then he ghosted me. Never heard back again. Tried reaching out. And I'm the farthest thing from a conspiracy person. But one might speculate that perhaps he was excitedly talking to somebody else, who I don't know who, who said to him back off. Maybe that went alone. Victoria Caldwell has flipped back and forth over the years, recanting her statements and then turning around and saying that she was actually telling the truth. Jason's team uncovered emails between Susan Galbroth and Tom Mangold from all the way back in 2012. Where Tom wrote that there's a, quote, "teenie-weenie, itsy-bitsy chance we've got this whole fucking murder story wrong." In public though, he doesn't want to talk about the case. After the Kentucky Innocence Project got involved, CNN covered their progress. They reached out to Tom for comment. And he said, quote, "If your project is any attempt or reference to the fact that Quincy Cross and all the others who were convicted of Jesse's murder might be innocent, then I want nothing to do with it. If it's anything else, I'd be pleased to help." Quincy is still in prison. I spoke to him today, actually. He's excited that we're, today as we're recording, not today as anyone's listening, as people listen whenever they listen. But yes, I spoke to him today, I've spoken to him many times. He's relentlessly optimistic. He's not bitter. He really just wants his story to be heard. And he wants justice, not just for himself, but for Jessica and for the others. I've interviewed hundreds of people on the wrongful conviction podcast, who've been either on death row or they're in prison for life or they've been freed after serving 10, 20, 44 years, more, 48 years like Glen Simmons in prison. And every one of them is optimistic, thoughtful, even, I mean, they exude this sort of grace. And it's just mystifying and inspiring to hear them. And it puts gratitude to my attitude and puts any other problems that we all have in perspective. There's still some legal remedy. I'm trying to remember what it is, but he does have, yes, he does have some court proceedings still to come. There's some discovery being done so far all along. And I believe that there's still a strong chance. I have to cling to that belief that he can be exonerated in court, but the other last option is if that's what it takes, then I hope that this governor, the next governor, will take a hard look at this case and see what now is clear to anybody who takes this serious look at it, which is that the wrong guy's in prison and he's been in for a very long time. For Jessica's parents, the system's failures have a different cost. The paperwork, the headlines, the endless retellings. None of it brings their daughter back. - When they tell you, you know, well, something good will come out of this and things get better with time and you get asked my wife and it's just like it happened the last week. And don't get better. You learn to live with it, but it never gets better. We're gonna miss her until the day we're gone. No doubt about it. And so will everybody else in our family 'cause she had that big of an impact on all of us. And I would say most of her friends, she was just that kind of person. - The fire that took Jessica Keran's life never really stopped burning. Susan Galbreath reignited the sparks. Maybe hoping the flames would clear the debris and reveal the truth, or maybe to burn away evidence that pointed towards Jeremy Adams. In the end, those flames were in a tool of justice. They were chaotic, aimless, driven by something other than truth. And they eventually consumed everything in their path. (gentle music) That's gonna do it for this episode and this year. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll be back after a short break. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hi, what's up my man? This is Ken Tennessee. Listen, the first thing I got to say is that as a law enforcement officer, it's truly makes my blood boil sometimes when you say that you don't and people on your show should not talk to cops. As much of an advocate as you are for the victims as you portray that are led on your show. You're saying they'll talk to the cops? It's totally bad, it's awkward for me. But nonetheless, I got to say I was one of those guys who never liked podcasts. I thought they were for weird people who had no good-based music. But when I was introduced to your show, I got to say I was in this show. Obviously I drive a lot for my job. So when somebody gets to my car, they hear what's on the radio, it looks like get a pretty stabbed. So from your law enforcement fan base, I say to you, stay safe and keep up the good work, my dude. Thanks. (upbeat music)