Episode 32: The art of communication

What's happening in the K9 industry? For all the latest news, views and expert opinions, stay right here for the K9 paradigm. You'll hear from industry leaders, experts, giants of the industry, learned colleagues, moveers and shakers, and the odd, randy guest. Get the latest insights and expert advice from both here and abroad from the people in the know. Now, here are your hosts, Glenn Cook and Pat Stewart and I'm Lofty Fulton. And I'm out of here. Hey folks, with the success of PSA in Australia, we've had a new club start up in Queensland. And this Sunday, they are getting me up to talk about the rules and do an intro to PSA seminar training day type thing. That's happening at 1042 Stapleton Jacobs World Road in Wungu-Bah in Queensland. 25 bucks come along, learn the rules, learn the sport. That is this Sunday, the 24th of June. That's awesome. Well done, Queensland, for getting your first official PSA, first official world. No, there's another club out there, but this is another one. Yeah, well, that's great. I'm really pleased to see that that's starting to kick off. Yeah, well deserved. And while we're talking about events and seminars coming up, don't forget folks, we've got Josh Moran and Forest Mickey coming back to Australia to do a one only seminar. I know if Josh is going to be doing one down in Melbourne for a select group of people, but the two A-listers are joining together to do one weekend event. That's the third, fourth and fifth of August 2018 here at Pet Resorts. And that's going to be the first weekend of August. So it's a Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Are we doing a panel discussion? We will be. Awesome. Yeah. So I think part of that, yeah, part of that show is that we will be doing a podcast with the guys. So we'll probably do that the same as what we did with Chad and Jay when they were out here. That was fun. I enjoyed that. That was really awesome. I had a great time doing that. Yeah. We'll drink some beers and talk to Chad. Drink some beers, talk shit and have a good time. Awesome. Welcome back to the K9 paradigm. I'm your host, Glen Cook. And joining studio is my regular host, Pet Stuart. Hello. So today what we're going to do is talk a little bit about communicating with your K9. This is an interesting topic that I often speak about with a lot of my students. And it was one that we were talking about the other day. And it sort of boiled over into more of a topic than what it should have been. But I realised the reason why I did that is because people are going to. Are you saying you spoke for longer about something than you should have? Wow. I wasn't saying I woke me up. It all does it. Cut that bit out. Keep it in its funny. Yeah. So we were talking about this as a topic and. So there's an NDTF course going on at the moment, right? There is. There is right now. We've got a block one coming in going through their first stage of their practical accreditation. So we were talking about a topic and then we started to get on to communication and how that affects us adversely or also, repetitively, which means positively in our training progress. Mm-hmm. It's raining. It's raining. It's going to set you off with the sound. Yeah. People would just have to understand that we can't afford an actual sound proof. Maybe we need some sponsors. Maybe it's time we cross that line and got some sponsors so that we can. We can upgrade to a sound proof. Imagine if we had our own recording studio where we could. We actually have a recording studio but it's part of my lounge room. I want a Rogan style one. I want one. Wouldn't that be awesome? I can a huge warehouse with Arturie and a gym and all kinds of stuff. Man, now we're talking. Okay. So if anyone wants to buy us that, we'll pump it out. We'll sell anything you want. We just need some form of financial sugar daddy out there. But in the meantime, you're going to have to listen to some random background. There's certain things that I won't do but Pat might consider them. I pretty much do anything. So I wanted to talk about this as a topic in communication because it's something that I think. When you watch people who work very well with their dogs, when they articulate behaviour and certainly obedience with their dog, you can clearly see that whatever they've done, they've developed a significant language between them and the dog. So fundamentally what we're faced with is we've got a species that doesn't understand how to be human because they're not. They're biologically not human. We know this and anybody who's learned or intelligent in dog training, I'm not trying to insult anybody because some people look at their dogs in a childlike manner. And that becomes a bit of an issue for us and we've talked about this with Chad on the show about whether or not it's anthropomorphism. And it becomes anthropomorphism when you have expectations of your dog performing like you were a young child doing. So young children and young dogs are not dissimilar up until a certain age. So toddlers and dogs are very very similar. I.e. they're still learning their way through it. However, there comes a period of time in a toddler's life where suddenly they start to become cognitive and start to get a higher functioning or deductive reasoning. Where they can start to understand more about self and how they function as a human being where a dog will never change from that. A dog is simply plateaued on that point. It will never advance through that. It doesn't mean that dogs aren't intelligent. It doesn't mean they can't think and feel. We know that through new technology. We've discussed this on the show before. But what we have to do is come to terms with the fact that our dogs have limitations. And if we can harness those limitations, we can teach them some amazing things which you see all the time. I mean, people are getting better and better with training. They're getting better. They're teaching the dogs how to do more things. Like for argument sake, I was watching an old video that Sam put up with these little French ball dog where he got to climb up on top of a rocking horse and start rocking backwards and forwards. And I mean, it's not like he's the first person that's done that with a dog. I mean, I saw a Dalmatian in Japan getting up on a bicycle, especially made bicycle for a dog and peddling the bicycle along and steering the handlebars. And they've taught dogs to get in cars and shift gears and all sorts of things. It's not like this is a regular or an instinctive behaviour for the dog. However, what it does show, what it does demonstrate, is there is a significant amount of good information that that dog has got from the handler, the trainer, the owner of the dog, that they've been able to understand how to put that in a practical application that's going to favor them and give them some form of advantage. Yeah, the whole time you were talking then, I was thinking about, you talk about toddlers and dogs. I have a toddler and I have a dog. Yeah, that's right. So you know exactly what I'm talking about. I have way more control over my dog than my toddler. Way more control. Way more control. The dog listens to me heaps better than my toddler. But not as a young puppy. As a young puppy would have had frustrations and. Oh yeah, for sure. You know, I mean, everyone goes through it. The first 12 months of owning a dog is the most reckless time of having a dog. And that's generally the age where we start finding that that is pretty much a point in time where people would decide whether or not they want to keep the dog. They kind of look at it and they go, "This is just too much hard work." And they look at it as an aspect of, "Do I want to carry on with this?" Or, "Do I shape this into a behavior that's going to better suit me in the household?" And we hope it's the latter. You know, and this is the benefit of getting information out the people is to saying, "12 months in a dog's life is tumultuous." And you're finding that in RIPSLIFE. Let's talk about that for a just off topic of dogs. Let's go into raising a toddler. Well, I'm not exactly a high-experienced that I'm doing at one time. But you're learning on the go? Yeah, the hard part that I found especially comparing that to dogs is because I understand behavior and how to control it fairly well. But it's very difficult to do that with a toddler. You actually think it's easier because you can reason and that sort of thing. But that's the reason that it's harder. Is that you can make deals and the toddler not keep his real deal. And now you're stuck in a position. And my son doesn't value anything particularly strong. So he's very tough. And I've knee-popored him. Like I've been joking about that for ages, but I've made him as strong as possible. He's quite a resilient little kid. He goes through phases where he's not, but in general he is. And as a result, he plays with anything. He'll make up his own game. So it's not like he has a special toy or a special food or anything like that that I can then use as leverage with him. He just doesn't give a broom. Yeah, but then there's brooms everywhere. So he loves to sweep and so he'd be like, fuck it, you can take that broom and I'll find another one. Everywhere has a broom. And then it's not like he has a special food and that's the only food he'll eat. Like he just, he doesn't care. He's very robust and resilient, which makes using any sort of negative punishment. Difficult on him because you can't threaten like, oh well, if you're not ready, I'll take this toy away or whatever. He doesn't have anything that he cared that much about. And he says, yeah, that's right. Well, and I don't think he understands the concept of value and anything high enough at this point in time. No, not really. And so it's difficult to, everything is then like, okay, well, like if you do this, we get this. If you do this, we get this. And there's no, it's very difficult to implement the whip like to say, well, you must. Yeah. Explain the whip for people who thinks that you're talking about whipping your child. Because somebody else, somebody will definitely misinterpret that. Yeah, the whip is a term we use when say like a mechanism by which you can enforce. And it's very difficult with him to enforce anything because we went to a, as part of the health check thing, we went to a child psychologist thing. It's like part of a, you get one free session to check up sort of thing. And the woman sits down and she says to me, she goes, okay, so we're talking about exactly this topic. And she goes, so we know for sure that punishment doesn't work. And I just stop, stop, stop. Okay, you didn't have to pretend you're talking to a big boy because. punishment by its very definition works. Anything that decreases the frequency and likelihood of a behaviour is a punishment. So please don't treat me like we're talking about a three-year-old, not two-one. So let's. - Nice. Well done. - Well played. - Let's use the correct terms. I understand them. And you're the one with the degree on the wall. Please, you understand them. - Yeah. How did that change the conversation? - Yeah, pretty abruptly. - Tell me about it. I want to know. Well, only that she then was like, "Well, physical punishment doesn't work." And I'm like, "I also would argue that that's not true, but I agree I'm not going to go down that path." And that's the issue we have with Rip is that he's a very robust little kid. - Of course. - By design. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah, by design. Of course, I could use some kind of physical punishment or intimidation as punishment, but I don't intend to do that with him at this stage. And he's tough enough that I just don't want to go down that line with him because of how tough he is. It's not like if he was a scared kid, or even then I don't want to use. I don't want to. It's as Jason says, I don't want to put reps in that field. Like, I don't want. I don't want to continue that. I'd rather keep toughing him up and shape him, mold him to do the right things. - Yep. - And all that is, like, you know, I can see why he baited me to go down here because it's all the exact same thing with the dog. We want to manipulate them into doing the right things and reward them. But as I say, it's easy to do that with the dog that it is with the toddler. - It comes back to the point on last episode, I think we talked about it where I was talking about where I screwed up an electrical job by cutting off too much cable. And the point being is it can always cut some off, but you can never cut some off. And that's the difficulty in raising children and raising dogs. Once that. Let's call it damage. Once that damage is done and we have a child or a dog that's inept in some sort of social function, you can never really add it back on. The difference between dogs and humans is with humans, you can go through deep, progressive therapy and we can discuss it in much finer detail with dogs. Once you've had that critical period issue, then. - Yeah, that's right. There's a lot of ongoing problems that you've got from there. - And so for him, as a toddler now, I consider him still within that deep. He's still in that critical period. So I am happy to use, like, aversive physical punishment on a dog that is ready for it and on a kid probably, that's ready for it, but he's not ready for it. It's not. It would be counterproductive to do so at this point. - That's very much. - And we still understand that. And you can also live with his behaviour. - Yeah. Well, I do agree. I do my best. I do my best. But yeah, so I think on the topic of communication with a dog, you've got. It's really those four quadrants of operand conditioning is how you can communicate with a dog. Yes, I like. I want you to continue doing what you're doing. He's reinforcement, or if I want you not to do it, he's punishment in one form or another. And in a young dog, I try to stay as far away from that punishment as much as possible, because I want the dog to just not find success, which he's a punishment, but I just want them to not find success in their behaviours. - Yeah, it is a punishment. Rather than have to have me intervene in that. I want to. It's an other who said many times that you want that big engine, no brakes. And I'll install the brakes later. - The interesting thing, going back into your conversation when you originally spoke about Rip, when you were so older, saying that you've started knee-popoing him. I remember reading the forum quite some time ago, somebody was saying, "I can't believe that ex-person started using dog training methods on their child." And I looked at that and I read it and I thought, "That really highlights your ignorance, that you think that psychology that was developed to use on human beings, because we use it in dog training and you only know about us in application in dog training, that you think that that psychology wasn't developed for all of us, for the benefit of the human race, or sometimes to be used against us." But nonetheless, it was everything that the behaviourist did, all the work that they did. If we haven't highlighted that point strongly enough at this point in time, people have really got to start getting back to reading books. Toilet Moodo, when he was on the show, he suggested that people really need to start reading more. And when they make blanket statements like that, again, I scorn you as a person because you actually are making unfound stupid statements on the internet that then other people get on the bandwagon when they start jumping up and down about it, because that is, I mean, no-popo is negative positive positive. It's but Michael have marketed, we've talked about that before, but the reality is, is it still psychology that's been formulated to be used on human beings? I can't say that enough. Yeah, that's right. And I'm pretty sure, like, Skino, one of his biggest clients was a CIA. Yeah, it was. They've used, like, they understand that these principles he designed, we learned about them on animals, but designed to be used on people. I think at one stage, Skino was described as potentially one of the most dangerous people in the world because of his knowledge about behaviour, because of what he actually knew and how he could manipulate behaviour. Well, I mean, since we're just kind of jumping all over the place, roughly, have you ever seen any of the Darren Brown show the experiments? Yes. Yes, so that's pretty amazing. And there's one in particular where he gets a guy to confess, not only confess to murder, but to a murder that didn't happen. Yeah, it didn't happen at all. He did the push, didn't he? He did the push, yeah. So that's one as well. That's a very recent one. That's worth a watch. Get on Netflix and have a look at that. But I don't want to ruin that one for people too much, but the older ones, the experiments are probably 10 years old. There's one where they, it's similar to the push where they, everybody involved in it is an actor, except for the one guy that they're manipulating. And they, through a series of many ways, and they trick him into all these different things, and they condition a guilt response to him, at to the point where he actually confesses so that the condition for the guilt response was a tone and being touched on the shoulder. And throughout the three days, they have this guy. They managed to instill that quite well to the point where they make him think that he may have been responsible for this guy's death. He takes him down to a police station. It's not even a real police station, but they had triggered him into knowing that there was one there to studio. And he's sitting in like an interview room, and it's like I think I might have done something really terrible. The cop who's not a cop is an actor gets up, touches him on the shoulder, and they ring the tone, and he just confesses like, and breaks down and confesses to a murder that didn't even happen. And let alone him doing it, poor dude gets his fucking brain fried by Darren Brown. I really hope with a lot of his people that they have a good support. They do. They always explain that. They always explain that, that they, the people have been chosen to be resilient enough to bounce back from it, and that they have a huge mechanism in place to rehab people after they do this to them. And they are all volunteers in one way or another. They fans of his that have applied to be on his show and consented to having their brain messed with. But what he does then is like it's months or years later that they actually go on it so they don't realize that they're probably on a watch list for the rest of their life after doing their show. So they don't suddenly become a serial killer because their brain's been split in half. But so it's quite remarkable. He has a whole series of a whole TV show around that. There's a really good one. I saw that it's on YouTube where he has a coin in his hand and puts it coin behind his back and then says, you know, which hand do you think it is? And what he gets is the people have to say to him, is the coin in your left hand? He'll say yes. Is the coin in your right hand? He'll say yes, right? And then so they've got the coin behind their back and he's asking questions. And he can tell by which one they're lying about and then he does 10 in a row where he gets it. But then he explains he's actually telling them he's manipulating them into putting the coin in their hand. Like there was no free will in like which hand it was going to be. He was manipulating and the conversation he has with them along the way is that he was not only he wasn't guessing it correctly. The first time he guesses correctly, that's the only one. Right. After that, he is then manipulating them into putting the coin into the correct hand. And all that is. I haven't seen that episode. It's not an episode. It's just an interview that he does with like a random people. Right. It's definitely worth checking out. So all of that is just him controlling people. And it's those subtle communication techniques and it gets in their head and manipulates them into doing the things that he wanted. They think they're in total control, but they're not. They're being manipulated by him into doing his bidding. And it's as simple as putting a coin in his hand. It's it's cool. I got obsessed with it a while ago. Send me the link. I'll find it. Yeah. Yeah. Let's put it up. Yeah. If I can find it. Yeah. It was like 10 years ago. I watched this. I hope I haven't put it too badly. But I got obsessed with it, especially when I first was getting into behavioral science, learning about dogs and stuff. And I realized that this guy was implementing it and it's amazing. It's very it definitely worth a watch. And if you if you've got Netflix, watch the push. Because it's all the same way. Yeah. Brent, I got me onto the push and you and I had been talking about. Because I think you'd watched it and I hadn't. And yeah, one night I finally sat down and and thought, oh yeah, I'll give it a show. I go, well, from five minutes in, I was completely intrigued. Yeah. Yeah. I ran out to an arral and I said, you've got to watch this. It's just absolutely amazing. Yeah. So yeah, she watched it pretty much straight after I did. And both of us were comparing notes with how interesting it is. Well, it's full on. Yeah. And makes you wonder what other people have done to other people. Yeah. Or what people have done to you. Or what you might have inadvertently done to others, it's pretty amazing. It's fucking full on. Yeah. Anyway, dogs, dogs back to dogs. Yeah, we've just basically opened a big can of worms. How you may have been coerced into behaving a certain way by somebody who knows how to manipulate behavior. Yeah. Well, and that's exactly what we're trying to do with dogs every time that we're definitely what we're trying to do. We're trying to part of communication. Yeah. It's part of teaching any type of skill that we're we're doing with the dog is teaching the dog to understand what it's supposed to do from our point of view. So again, this comes into a point which I commonly say anytime we start talking about behaviour in general is, and I know I've mentioned this before and I'll keep saying it, I'll probably say it into the future as well. We often label dogs as far as they're doing good or bad behaviour, but they don't know that because they've never learned the foundation of what good or bad behaviour is. They do learn it in time, they understand to do frequencies in favourable behaviours which have advantages towards them, which we obviously teach, and they learn to avoid behaviours that are causing any type of adversities or negatives to them. So this is a very important foundation that we've got to work towards to teach the dog, do more of this behaviour, do less of this behaviour, which goes back to my sort of eyebrow raising at the comment that your child psychologist was talking to you about that punishment doesn't work. Well, I'd like to know what planet that exists on because I've never in any documentary where people say punishment doesn't exist. Any documentary I've ever watched as far as nature or science or anything like that, you can watch it unhindered, unmanipulated by human hands and it will occur in nature. It's simply the fact that we have, and I know I've said this again before, but I know that people have labelled it based on scientific observation, which science is based on, it's a true observation. It's just a shitty word. That's the problem. Well, there are lots of, I mean, there's swear words that just words that people have decided that they're going to take offense to it. And unfortunately punishment, words like punishment and compulsion are commonly looked at as the filthiest words in dog training. And yet, I question what is your understanding of those words? Like, if you help someone up from a seat, if you go over and physically put your hand on them and reach out, offer your hand and help them up, that's a form of compulsion. And yet, when you hear someone talk about it with such vinegar and such disdain, you have to ask yourself, what do you actually know about compulsion? What do you know about punishment? It reflects poorly on the application of how it's been used, especially in people who use it poorly, is because they don't understand that compulsion is still helping guiding into a behaviour. It's still part of shaping behaviours. It's still part of the toolbox that we access. The other thing, too, to remember, is that punishment is still motivation. I mean, motivation exists in reinforcement and punishment. What people, and where we commonly keep going back to, and if you listen to anybody who's involved in training, especially people who want to avoid punishment, we can't. You can't avoid punishment. That's right. Just because you don't access it as a form of punishment, it doesn't mean the dog doesn't. You might not be looking at it. You might think to yourself, well, I'm not, I'm not somebody who punishes my dog. I can actually sit there and watch somebody working with their dog, who wants to tell me that they're totally involved in inducement training only, and I can point out three or four times within half an hour where the dog experience punishment. Whether or not you come to terms with that, the reality is the dog still views it as being punishment. Yeah, of course. Within that definition, it has to or would continue doing anything and everything. Of course. Within that, the build up of lactic acid could be considered punishment. Yeah. Like it. I'm tired. Whatever the sensation that you're feeling. I mean, if you're experiencing that sort of sensation, this is why people stop going to aerobics or stop going to gyms. Yeah. Because they, you know, they get in there, they start smashing weights on the first day, they're having a great time. They're there with their friend working out. Then they get up in the morning and they experience delayed onset muscle sawness, which is commonly known in the industry as doms. And then they think to themselves, well, I don't want to do this again. This is shit. You know, waking up, can't lift my legs and can't move my arm. I feel like my muscles are tearing and ripping and stuff like that. So that is an adversity to going to the gym. However, there are people who see through that. And they say, I actually like feeling this sensation. I like feeling the sawness. It makes me feel alive. It makes me feel like I've done something. It makes me feel like I'm progressing, and which they are, you can't experience muscle growth unless you go through that stage of sawness. But it'll stop a lot of people. It'll make people cancel their gym memberships on the go. Yeah, exactly. And then that's a good example of how to fix everybody differently. And every dog is different as well. What's important is only what's relevant to the dog. The best statement that I've heard for a long time in the industry, which is, it's probably been around for a long time, but but I've only heard it more recently. It's trained the dog that's in front of you. I keep thinking, I keep looking back at that statement. I think to myself, well, that's actually probably the most profound thing that anybody could say. But in saying that, everybody of all applications and styles of training has to think about that as well. So when you've got a dog in front of you, and you know your training system is failing it based on what you like, it's not what about what works with the dog is about what you like. When you actually look at that, you've got to say to yourself this episode's on communication. And I ask you, are you communicating well with your dog? Or are you failing the dog because it doesn't fall into line with something that you actually like? Yeah. I'm not calling anybody out. I'm not calling any groups of people out. What I'm just saying is, if you really want to be successful with dogs, then you have to be analytical about that point in view. What I'm not saying is go into your backyard and start smashing dogs around. Nobody is saying, I mean, I've never advocated that in any show. I don't think I've ever spoken to anybody in recent years that I can call a professional trainer on somebody that I hold in regard that looks fondly upon hurting dogs or knocking them about. Because that's not communication. That's abuse. Pure and simple. Yeah. If a dog is frightened of the way you're training, if you show a tool to a dog and the dog runs in fear from it, you haven't communicated anything to that dog. Or you've what you have taught your dog how to be scared of you. Yeah. Okay. So you have communicated something. I'll go back on that. You have communicated something. You've communicated poorly. So that's something that everybody who's involved in any type of training doesn't matter whether it's humans, dogs or anything like that is what is the message that you're conveying. Yeah. And that's the most important thing. If we're actually going to make progressive movements with a dog, we're actually going to get the dog to start working out what we actually want, then we need to spell it out. If you do this behavior, abundance of reinforcement is available to you. If you do this behavior, then unfortunately you're going to experience some sort of loss. Okay. Something is going to occur that is going to show you that behavior is connected with something negative. Spell it out nice and clear. Make it clear to the dog. I've never seen any species yet that I've been involved in training that will reject the notions of reinforcement or punishment if they know how to control the application of it. Yeah. The importance for you as a trainer, somebody who's involved in practical training is that you actually need to spell that out clearly to the species. This is how it's going to work in your favor. Once the advantage is shown to you, you're going to look at, okay, I can significantly reduce my feelings of or my experiences in punishment by avoiding all these behaviors. And now I can work into a realm of experiencing joy and fulfillment. For fulfillment. Yeah, fulfillment is a perfect word. I can experience fulfillment of life by working in these behaviors. The one area that we were talking about with the students the other day is where people tend to make a grand fuck up of it is that they're too impatient. They're expecting a species that isn't human and is learning how to adapt to our language program, our requirements of their behavior. What they're not doing is they're not working incrementally enough. So what they're not doing is they're not being patient enough and saying to the dog, okay, that's enough for today. When I watch you work with Remco and when I work with Randy, what we do is we do just enough to keep the dog topped up. Okay, for the dog to say, oh geez, I'd love another girl with that. Which brings us back to an old saying, I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but it's an old saying we used to use an Australian dog training when we were all trainers in that organization is we had a clause called the No More One More Time Clause, which I'm pretty sure I've talked to you about it and I talked to most students about it is when you see that the dog is at a threshold or at a peak where the dog is capped enough in the behavior, stop, stop right there, keep the dog wanting. Rather than the dog thinking to itself, this is too much pressure. I'm just not enjoying this process anymore. I'm not enjoying working with you anymore. Now it's become a labor. Now it's become a job. So the dog starts to see through the veil because really it is a job. We're teaching the dog to do a job. We're teaching the dog to do skills that are beneficial or entertaining to us, but we never want the dog to see that. We want the dog to see it as something that is beneficial to it and it is. It's a symbiotic coexistence between you and the dog that works some functions well for both species. Yeah. I think on the topic of communication, the most important thing for me is clarity and consistency. Yeah, because I think the dogs are only ever trying to find a patent in what we're doing. And the rare that we're involved in like a single event learning opportunity, like they exist, but it did not that that doesn't happen that often in training dogs are trying to figure out what brings me success, what doesn't, and how do I continue to find that. And so long as those things are consistent, the dog will continue to find success. That certainly single event learning happens. Well, like my first Malay I ever had, this is the best example of single event learning I've ever seen was walking past the bin and we had like a cardboard box next to the bin that met it was just a smaller passage than was normal and he accidentally stepped on the foot pedal that opens the bin. And he the shock in this dog's face was he was like, what has - I did that. Like he made the link, the media, and from then on he knew how to open the bin. It was a single event. He just, but the payout was, 'cause he got access to the bin. The payout was enough, and it was accidental learning that it was definitely single event learning. That one thing happened that was, out of my control, out of his control happened and he learned it for sure. But events like that are few and far between. On the punishment scale of that, like I made a joke about a friend's dog one time, they got sprayed by a skunk, right? It was investigated, didn't know what the skunk was. In America, it was investigating it, it got sprayed. He ain't investigating anymore skunks. - Yep. - Like that's a significant consequence. Single event learning. - Yeah, it is. But those things don't happen often, especially in training, when we're trying to get a dog to do something. It's those incremental increases. - And funnily enough, talking about that process that was nature punishing nature. - Yeah, exactly. - Without any intervention through a human being. - Exactly, of course. So punishment, how does that not work? - Yeah, well, and that's exactly right. - I got punished, I don't chase skunks anymore. - And that's the best example of a positive punishment that there is, like you get sprayed and you're out. - I know you got something else to say, but I want to quickly just jump in on that because I saw an old documentary that was following the life of a young dingo. And I've been looking for this skit 'cause I talk about it all the time, not a skit. It's an old doco. I've been looking for it everywhere. So if anybody can actually find it, I'd love to have access to it. It was an old sort of Malcolm Douglas 1970s early '80s sort of video when it was shot in Super 8 or whatever it was. - Malcolm Douglas was a Bush takam man. - He was, yeah. - Oh no, no, he's not the Bush takam man. He was like this. He used to live with Aboriginal communities and go, "Yeah, I'm sure there's a Bush takam man, wasn't it?" - I don't think so. I could be wrong. I could be wrong, but I don't think Malcolm Douglas. - Someone clear that up for us, please. - Yeah, if we can, we can find out, or we'll check it out ourselves. But anyway, I don't think it was Malcolm Douglas, but it was like that. - But what happened was the Bush takam man. - Maybe it was the Bush takam man. So Malcolm, now Malcolm Douglas. - Some guy. - Some guy. Or a documentary team. We're watching the life and trials of a young dingo growing from being a pup to adolescence into an older dog. And it was staged over certain periods of its life. But as a young adolescent dog, it was running around and it came across in a kidner for the first time. And it was sort of like going up to the kidner, nosing it, spiked its nose a few times, but it wasn't enough of aversive event to stop it from doing what it did next. So it actually jumped on it and quilted its paw. And you could hear it squeal and run off and limping around. And the doggo team were concerned at that point, but their philosophy was observed, don't interact. Just nature has to be what nature is. So they were watching it from a distance and you could see it limping and licking its paw and it recovered. The moral of the story is that that was a single event learning stage as well. But they showed the dog as an older dog. So when he was older, and he came across in the kidner again, and as soon as it came running out of the bush, which was it was trying to avoid it, it ran in the opposite direction. Like it was such a significant event in the den goes life, that it saw it and thought, "Holy shit, I remember this whole experience, I'm never going near those things again." I'm not saying, go and stab your dog in the foot with a pin-cushion. Because obviously there will be somebody who will trigger and saying, "Is that what you're suggesting I should do?" No, it's not. But what I'm suggesting is that punishment does work and you're bringing up the whole topic of single event learning. Well, that was significant enough in that den goes life for it to learn right there and then. A kidner's are something that's not on my third group, avoid them at all costs because their defense system is too much that I can't penetrate it. Yeah. So single event learning is rare in a positive experience than it is in a negative experience, I guess, right? Like, I mean, negative is in bad, not as in. Well, I can give you a single event learning situation which happened with a dog. There was a client of mine in Melbourne, he rang me years ago and he was convinced. His neighbor was letting his dog out of. He had a beautiful run set up for the dog. The dog was a shepherd, working shepherd. And he had it all set up, beautiful run, beautifully concreted and the kennel, he was a builder, so it was magnificent. Probably the best compound I've seen for a dog before. So all. It was self-watering, he had the drainage set up perfectly. Everything about, I went around there and I said, "Mate, you should build kennels for a living." This is just magnificent. He said, "I love this dog." And, you know, I don't want him to be a problem to the neighborhood. He goes, "I think my neighbor doesn't like him being there and he's letting him out." And I said, "Well, what are your suspicions around that? Like, why do you think that's the case?" And he said, "Well, you know, I'll go out for a while, I'll come back and it's only a short period of time the dog's out." And I said, "Oh, let's go and have a look at the run." So I went and had a look at the run. The run looked quite good. It had like a sort of tongue and groove sort of thing where it latched over and, you know, you wouldn't think that the dog would be able to release itself from the cage. And I said, "Okay, when does this happen? Like, describe the process." He said, "Mate, anytime I'm gone, like I can be gone for 10 minutes on the shop and the dog's out of the run, the gate's wide open." And I said, "You've spoken to your family, you said my family aren't letting the dog out, guaranteed." And I said, "And no one's seen any foul play or anyone jumping the fence. You haven't looked at seen any footprints in the dirt or anything like that." I said, "All these things are hallmarks that somebody is actually interfering in sabotaging your system." And he said, "No." And I said, "All right, next session I come back, we're going to grab a video camera, we're going to film it." I said, "I'm surprised that you haven't done it, but I'll do it and we'll go for a ride down together." So what we did is we set it all up, jumped in the car, went down the street, came back and the dog was out of the kennel. So I just said, "I think the dog's doing this." And he goes, "There's no way, there's no way the dog could be doing it." So we played the video and sure enough, the dog basically stuck its paw straight out of the gate and it flicked the lever and pushed the gate and bumped itself straight out. So what had happened was that at some stage, the dog was jumping up and down and it accidentally put its paw through and it released itself. And it gave itself the ultimate access to freedom is that it came through the adversity of wanting to get out, like having separation anxiety from the owner leaving. But it was ultimately led to a, like such a high level of reinforcement pretty much happened to your dog with the bin. But you know, it was, he was shocked. He was absolutely shocked. He said, "Oh, is my dog smarter than any other dog?" I said, "Yes." Yeah, he said, "This occurred through accidental behavior." I said, "The dog just accidentally, you know, from jumping up and down, it's just got its paw through there and worked out that somehow what I just did got me freedom." And I said, "All he did was hone and mastery skill from there." So he shaped it in and turned it into a behavior where he could instantly access it. All we had to do was basically drill a hole through there and put a pen through there and that stopped the dog from being else-caped. So I said, you know, it was a lot of money in the actual private lesson which cost us like 50 cents in a nail. Yeah. Just filed the end of and bent it around and put it through the groove and it stopped the dog from escaping. Yeah. And the tricky part there is when the dog doesn't get success on it the next time he tries harder and harder and harder. And that's how- But that also creates extinction which is how extinction processes. Yeah. But I mean, you just got to be careful. Like that's how the dog was supposed to be about the Army dog tipper out. That's how he died exactly that. He had a mechanism for opening his kennel. Which his name was Bailey. His real name was Bailey. Yeah, we were corrected. What's that in Fight Club where they all have to say their name? His name is Robert Palson. Yeah, his name was Bailey. But yeah, that's how he died because- So he had to get a chance up now saying his name was Bailey. His name was not tipper out. It was Bailey. Well, it was tipper out. But um, sorry, go ahead. The way that he was getting out, they blocked it in exactly the same kind of fashion. And part of that included him having his head hanging out of the kennel. Which is no one knew, obviously. And that's how he died because he got stuck there in what he was expecting just to open his kennel and when they'd fixed it and couldn't be open. I do have to say on that, the only other thing that we did differently as well was we reduced the size of the access panel whether we put your hand through to access the- Mm-hmm. The clue to the lead through. Basically what we were trying to avoid was the dog breaking its leg. Yeah, well that's what we're talking about. Yeah, so if you- Yeah. If you- I have had success in this in the past. Yeah. You keep trying and- Yeah, correct. Certainly extension will come, but you might break his leg for that. Well, the process that happens before extinction is you usually get the- Before the extinction, births occurs is like you said, you get exacerbated behavior where it- it peaks at such a high level. And this is what happens with barking when people are experiencing puppy screaming and barking. But I mean, you know, that's a whole different kettle of fish. Well, here's a hot tip on that since it makes- If anyone that's still listening to us just whaffling. I have doorbells in my kennels at home. Are you saying that, haven't you? So, um, I haven't. It's about- For me, it's about controlling hope. So, exactly that. When a dog's jumping around barking in the kennel and that kind of thing, they'll just want it out, right? For my dogs, no, that there is no hope in the kennel of coming out. Now, the issue I have at my place is the dogs can see me in the house when they're in their kennels. They're not in there that often, but when they are, they're in there because I need them to shut up and not be in the way, right? So, use the doorbell to mark quite a few coming out. You're coming out. No, no. So, are you coming out? Yeah. So, the way it is is the problem that I face is the dog can see me walking around in the house and maybe I go in the yard, whatever. All those things are indicators to the dog. Like, oh, he's going to let us out. So, there's the hope and there's the excitement of we're coming out. And then there's no clear signal. And this is on the- Your topic of communication. There's no clear signal to the dog when you're coming out. So, what I have is I have two doorbells. They're both on, they're like $10 bunnings ones. They both have different chimes. Same doorbell, just comes with different chimes. If you come up with this yourself. Uh, yeah. Well, I mean, it's really quite impressive. I like it. Uh, I think that's something you shouldn't have talked about on the part of the show. Well, here you go. This is your free info. So, I have cat doorbells in the kennels. And before I let them out, I ring the doorbell. So, it means that the dogs are in there. - We'll have to call this the Stewart release system. - The Stewart release system. - Yeah. So there's no hope. I am not the trigger to come out. It's not seeing me. It's not me walking past the kennels. I can go up and even touch. That will be a sleep on her bed and she'll open an eye and watch me play with the handle of her kennel. She doesn't mean anything to her until I ring that doorbell and then fucking madness happens, right? 'Cause they know this is it. The hope comes back. So there's no hope of coming out. Only takes maybe a week or two for the dogs to figure it out. When I get a new dog, they go in the kennels. It's the same thing. They can bounce around. They can see me. They can, they, they, they want to think that they can get me to let them out, right? And with that doorbell, they realize there's no chance of them doing anything that will get me to let them out. And I don't have to be that consistent on, you know, when you're teaching a puppy in a crate, they have to be quiet before you let them out and all that blah, blah, blah. I don't have to be that consistent because the doorbell is the consistent thing. So they realize nothing they do can control the doorbell. And as long as they don't do, as long as the doorbell doesn't go off with any consistency to their behavior, rather than relaxing. So if they're always barking with the doorbells off, they think they can control the doorbell. They make it bark, not ours, right? But sometimes barking, sometimes relaxing, sometimes eating, sometimes whatever. If I'm just inconsistent in my consistency, they pretty well quickly realize that I'm not coming out to the doorbell, because often they don't bark. And because of where I live and how I live, I cannot have barking dogs in the kennel. It's not possible. I had to come up with a plan to eliminate that as quickly as possible. And it works very, very well. Very, very well. I really like it. Yeah, it works fine. Yeah, I think that that is, you'll probably see like three or four trainers making their own YouTube video, now explaining how to do that. Yeah, it's the proprietary method. (laughing) Yeah, so I'm gonna call them out if I see them doing it. I'm gonna say, that's the patched-to-it system right there. That's the patched-to-it doorbell method. No, and I have to be like, what you should do before they do. It is do a video to show people your dogs working with them. Yeah, I have a video that I filmed as you guys just never put it out, because I had the idea, it was several years ago. I've been doing it since I've had those kennels, but it was just about the control of hope. Once I realized that the reason that they wanted to come out was because they had hope that they could get out. Yep. And I had no clear trigger. Let me go back and tell the honest to goodness truth about why I implemented this. But spoke at the ISCP conference years ago, and you could buy the video. And when I was watching that, he spoke in that about how he had, back then they used to think it was cool that your dog piss and shit in the kennel. Like that was what you did. That's where they went. Yeah. So the kennels were gross. It's actually nodded to the asking dogs. Yeah. But so the result, when they would get the dog out, the dog would be covered in piss and shit. So he'd wear like a laboratory coat. Yep. And so he had the same deal, and he'd walk past the kennel on the dog. If he wasn't wearing the coat, the dog knew he wasn't coming out. Yep. And if he was, the dog knew you're putting on your shit coat because I'm coming out. And I thought, well, that's handy, but I don't want a shit coat. So I need a clear signal that is you're coming out or you're staying in. And so I went and bought $10 bunnings, doorbells. Yeah. And they worked perfectly. I have had no problem with the system. I wouldn't be out of remake a video now because my dogs, the two that I have now are out of it. They don't need it anymore. Like it's an intermediary thing when I get a new dog in. It's that they learn that. And the two I have knew it, they would know it still, but I don't use it day to day as much. Because they don't, they only go in the kennel for a specific event. And they know when that event is over, I'll get the coming out of the kennel. That's really cool. Yeah, well, actually well. So that's on your topic of communication. Randy's Q is a slip lead. VCs is a slip lead coming. Yeah, he, he, he, he knows he's got a slip lead coming. He runs to the door and he sits down immediately. Because he knows there's, I'm definitely coming out. But I've also taught him and or shaped him in a behavior that jumping around and screaming and barking will cause delays in you coming out as well. Yeah. So there's protocols of how he has to exit the run. He's not allowed to bully me or anybody else when he gets there. Randy doesn't have a lot of, he's not that he's nasty to other people. He just doesn't have a lot of regard for other people and like he's got with me, which is understandable. He's my dog and I've never shaped those protocols with him before. But he certainly has an understanding that when I come with a slip lead, run to the door and sit there, away enough from the door where I can actually open the door. And that's well with Katana trying to squeeze out and get through him and run past him and everything like that. But he will still hold that. He won't trigger on her or anything like that because he knows that I'll just shut the door again and walk away and put the slip lead back. Yeah. But I like the doorbell system. I think that's really. Yeah, it works. It works fine. And it's a form of, it's a good form of communication. Yeah, exactly that. And in line with what I was saying, like for me, the most important thing about communicating with a dog is clarity in that this is either the case or it's not the case. You know, they've been clear with the dog. Must be. But then consistency is the main thing. And that's where I think most people fall over is you identify a set of circumstances that means I'm not going to be consistent and then the dog can't identify those same circumstances. Like it might be that, say you're walking down the street, in the middle of teaching your dog to not pull on the lead and you just can't be fucked. So you just go, okay, well, you can pull on the lead now. And the dog's like, well, and this is how I think not only people do poorly at training, but it's how you create neurotic or what's the correct word? Like anxiety issues in the dog where they can't find the right behavior. So this was not allowed yesterday. And suddenly it is allowed today. And it is going to be allowed tomorrow. Now, there could be a really significant trigger for you. You might have sore shoulder. There could be a really clear reason that if you could reason and explain to the dog, hey, this is why this is allowed now and not any other time. Yep. The dog would understand, probably fine, but you can't. And so you have to be consistent 100% of the time. And like, again, to use that exact example, I, I have most clients I teach to end up walking on a slip lead. And I say, hey, this is a training tool. We are in the next two weeks while you're still teaching this and your dog is not quite understanding that you must at least must always be still. It must be loose. If you have somewhere to be put the harness you've been using on and let the dog water scare you there, like don't, don't drop the ball on this in the same picture. Like there's the clarity, right? Okay, slip lead is only allowed to pull, but I can't maintain consistency today. So I can go back a step and give you clarity instead of the consistency. So I put on goes your harness, you can water scheme you to get the coffee that we're just in a rush to get and you can water scheme you all the way back. And I don't feel like that impacts training negatively in any way, shape or for the harness is still a cue. Yeah. So that's how many, yeah, any, any, any, any clarity cue you can pull on this, you cannot pull on the slip lead. And if you haven't finished teaching that, then just go back to the one that he knows I can pull on because he's been doing that for two years before I turned up and gave you a different plan otherwise. Yeah, that's right. And we used to call in the early days, it's a corny phrase, but we used to call it the three seas of training consistency, consistency consistency. And I mean, it's just something we used to drill into everybody all the time because you and I were talking about a few training colleagues for productively, not in poor sense, but when we can start to see holes in training, and this is about ourselves as well, we talk about this as a club, we talk about our friends, we talk about our clients in this type of manner. But when we can start to see holes in their training, we can see that people are largely inconsistent with what they're doing. They're changing their changing boats midstream a lot of the time. That time when you're changing boats, when you're hopping from one canoe to another, just to use an example, you're an article term. Yeah, it's a nautical term. Yes. I won't say anything about Simon or anything like that. I'm going to edit that. But yeah, when you're changing canoes, that time where your midstream and you're striding across one boat to the other, that's when you're in a situation where you could possibly tip the canoe. Yeah. You know, and I see people do that with their dogs as well. Their midstream with training, the dog is not following along with you. You can clearly see that the dog has lost track of what it's supposed to do. And that is reflected in the fact that it's lost contact with you. It doesn't understand. So it goes back to a zero point behavior or a foundation behavior where the dog goes, I'll just perform a behavior that I know how to do. I'm actually stressed, but actually terms that where we call it the mother behavior. And unfortunately for a lot of people, a lot of clients that I've seen, or probably a lot of clients that you've seen as well, is we know what the dog stress or behavior is. Yeah. Because that's the behavior that the dog understands to do when I'm feeling in times of stress. Randy's is jumping to a hill position. Like when he's feeling a little anxiety, he'll body slam me into a into a hill position. But I have no problem with that because that's the mother behavior. I want him to do. Yeah. I think yours is biting, biting something like a tube or a finger or something like that, which is effectively a strategy in training. Yeah. My thought process on that was if he's confused, it's probably going to be because of a scenario that we haven't trained for. Yeah. And best case, he just bites something, then maybe he's on the right track. But he will, that would transition to biting a decoy. So if he feels too much pressure, if he doesn't know like, shit, I don't know what to do, I'll bite this guy out. That's probably what to do. Yeah. And we'll see how that pens out in the future. But I mean, it happened at the trial the other day when he missed the strike on the coach test and he got charged. He liked that would have been a confronting for a young dog. That would have been. Yeah. He is very young. And I mean, obviously it's a trained behavior to bite him, but also he would have been like the quickest way to de-stress is to bite. Yeah. And he bit good and hard. And it was let and go. That was the issue. But let's face it, confusion and frustration are parts of training. It's going to happen. You can't avoid that. What we do is we try and significantly reduce the footprint we leave behind that by trying to build as much clarity around that as we possibly can. We want to try and be as clear, consistent, and work with the incremental levels that the dog understands. The progress that the dog will achieve is always dictated through the dog's behaviour. The dog will tell you and show you through its behaviours and its understanding how far it can actually go in training. You can't push the dog beyond that. You can try, but you'll often find that you'll be met with resistance and your creative versity through training, which is something that you really don't want to be digging yourself out of. You want to try and set this up as successfully as you possibly can. We've mentioned this before, getting back to frustration and training. Frustration is actually something that we can use to successfully modify behaviour. And it's something that we are often encouraged when we're going from a continual schedule of reinforcement, i.e., the dog doing a behaviour and we're constantly treating the dog to stopping that and saying, "Okay, now that you're in this behaviour but I want more, I'm going to stop treating you, the dog will experience frustration at that point." And what we want the dog to do is then go, "Okay, well, why aren't I getting the treat? I was, but I'm not. What do I need to do differently?" That's exactly the mindset that we want to open up in the dog. That's how we're trying to communicate with the dog. I need you to do something significantly more than what you just did. Then the dog says, "Okay, now I'm going to try something different. I don't know if it's going to work or not and Bingo reaches success and the dog goes, "Okay, now I need to get closer to the object." So it has some form of successive approximation. The more approximate I am to the behaviour, the more successful I find myself. Yeah. Frustrations are funny one. Sometimes people will tell you that they're drive building. Really, they're just using a lot of frustration. It's the key way to do that. But can build drive. Yeah. But that's fine when you intend to, but I think a lot of people also use. Misinterpret it. Well, use frustration to build drive into things they don't want. So just one example, we've got a client that has a dog that chases bikes. Just those crazy chasing bikes and bikes are tires. And after ages and ages, you figure out like, "Oh yeah, we'll be kids for the first six months. We thought he'd be nice for him to be on the front porch, like on the front of the house, the front yard, where there's a bike path that goes past." So for six months, he's still just sat there loading and loading and loading and chasing bikes up and down. He's like six meter frontage. And then when he actually got to go out and engage with one, of course he nailed it. That's drive building. That's like saying to a working dog guy, "Are you back tied to your dog?" And you flick that flirt pole around. And then you're surprised that he bit the rag when you let him off of the back. That's the point of it. You want this? You want this? You want this? Oh, you missed it. You missed it for an extended period. And then when he gets it, like holy fuck he gets it. He really gets it. And again, it's not a problem with the dog, what it understood. The dog did exactly what it believed it was been conditioned to do. Yeah. So frustration, like it's just a good example again of everything that is double-aged. It's perfect if it is going to be-- If it's by design, it's good. Yeah. It is going to build desire. Frustration builds desire. And if it's into something you like, great. I was smiling all through the time when you were talking about that because I remember reading on a forum some time ago. There was a lot of discussion about a training system which was encouraging people to build drive in their dogs. And what people were finding was it's nice to build drive in your dogs by design. But it's not nice to live with when you-- that's not the intention that you really wanted to live with. Yeah. Like if you watch people on videos and they've got really punchy drivey dogs and they're pushing in a beat-ins and stuff like that. It looks amazing. It looks amazing. But then try living with the dog. And that was the feedback on the forum. As people were coming back then saying, now my dog is digging into my back when I'm, you know, like it doesn't understand what I'm doing. It's jumping on me or raking me like Freddie Krueger because the dog was experienced in a form of frustration where it didn't know how to communicate with the handler anymore. And it was halfway through a system which the system was designed for a working style of dog. How to push the dog into a working mode. You know, and I mean, look, I agree. It doesn't matter if you've got a pet to try and get the dog up and active. There are things that you have to do to frustrate the dog into a behavior where the dog understands, well, this is now beneficial to me. But not to a point where the dog becomes what learns a contingency in the behavior. Like you want it to do-- you had like a model in mind. You're thinking all about this model and you're thinking this is exactly what I want it to look like. But the picture is a skew on the dog's mind because your communication techniques are breaking down somehow. Yeah. I think that model of like that, well, training and drive is fine, which is God-Free-Dull-Dies book. Yes. Is fine. I'm not talking that it's God-Free-Dull-Dies, but that's his book. Yes. Yes. It is his book. He wrote that book. Yes. It was Sheila Booth in the 80s or early 90s. That's fine, except if you're training in your home. Like, like, so-- And you need really-- Pet dogs. Yeah. Pet dogs. So you need really clear signals of when we're training versus when we're not. So like an example, say-- and this is clarity again, right? So when I'm training a young dog that has clear signals, this is a training session, this is not a training session. I have like a call that comes on, call it comes off, so it's something. There's always a signal. And I never train in my house. Yep. And so my dog now, both my dogs can be inside the house and can chill out and can just relax and just be there doing nothing. But people, especially dog trainers who come to my house would say, oh, no, Pat has outside dogs, because my dogs will try and push you to play with them. And then people do, and you undo all the fucking work that I've done. Right? So like my dog, when he's in the house, there's no opportunity for a wards. There's no opportunity for nothing. You just relax. And I condition that from when he's very young, we do our drive work, we get all, we get excited. Yep. And now you're tired and sleepy. Now you're allowed in the house when you're tired and sleepy. So being in the house is the picture of doing nothing, chilling out, right? Relaxing in the house. And you get to jacked up. Okay, you've got-- You got your time. Yeah. So now I'm at the point where my dog can, he goes and he comes in the house and he can chill out. The both of them can be in there all happy. But the problem is, then, really like, you know, if I have a friend over on the weekend, he starts getting pushy with him and that friend doesn't know the rules. And it's very difficult to explain to people like, Hey, even though that Mal and Mara is going to start headbutting you, trying to start a game, you just ignore him for 30 seconds and the game will stop. People will like, Oh, they pull back or whatever. And now the game's on, right? Which is why always call guest dog untrainers. Yeah. Because they do everything to undo that not intentionally. No, no, no, no. Like any means. It's just that they have no idea of the systems and what you've structured with the dog. For your communication works successfully in your environment. They come in and they just, like you said, they undo everything. Yeah. Because they're sitting there going, set, drop, set, stand. Yeah. And reinforcing the dog for everything it doesn't do. Yeah. Or even in my case, not even try until they'll do anything, just playing with him because he doesn't play-- Yeah, they ramp him up. Yeah, he doesn't like once he gets going, you know, like they initiate drive. Yeah. And now I don't want high drive in my house. I don't want that. And I don't, I don't train in my house at all, train in the garage. In the garage, you go crazy, right? But in my living space, you're a potato of legs. You relax. Okay? Like I don't want that. I need you just to relax. And they get it. They fully get it. You just have to be consistent. And that's why when people come over, it's easier for me to go, you know what, for the 10 minutes you're here, my dog's going to be not around. He goes in the kennel, he's outside, whatever. And my training get doesn't get undone. But yeah, the range is getting high. But I like, for me, on the topic of communicating with a dog, the most important thing is clarity and consistency. Yeah, yeah. Everything that I do. That's the only thing I worry about. And what I say is as well is to get a dog that does what you want. I don't, in my opinion, dogs are either on their time or on my time. You're either doing what you want or what I want. And I don't blur those lines. Like so, if I ask you for the behavior and you know it, you must do it. And I'm willing to, this is actually really good point. It's from Jordan Peterson's book 12 Rules for Life. I mean, it's not where I learned it, but I agreed with it when I hear it in there is, and it's the child, the toddler raising section of it, it says if you have rules enforce them. They have to be enforced. But as a result, you don't want to be enforcing rules all the time. So I don't have many rules. So that's what I'd have. Right. So we don't have so many rules. Yeah, where it becomes far too complicated. It's, it's almost like, you know, I don't want to make this a political statement, but it's almost like society. We've got so many laws that we're bound to break them because there's so many laws in existence. And, and the lawmakers can't even keep track of the laws that we've got. If you've got that in your household with your toddler or with your dog, your dog is going to be faced with the same situation. I don't know how not to get in trouble. Yeah. Well, and so with our toddler and my dog, this is, oh, she's retarded all back together right to the start. It's amazing. We just segwayed it all right back to the beginning. It was like we had a plan and we didn't just amazing. With my toddler and my dog, this is why they're both quite wild and and have great lives. And I have awesome relationship with both is because I, I hardly ask anything of them. Yeah. They do, you're doing your thing. We're playing a game. We're getting reckless together. We're doing, we're getting crazy. I condition those behaviors to be things that I want like I, I manage it. Yep. But also if I say something has to be, then it has to be. And I'm prepared to reinforce that however necessary to do that. Good. But I rarely have to because I don't have many rules because you built proper foundations from the get go. Yeah. And he's an example, the toddler example. Like, well, so he's two together. Young puppies destroy things. If I'm not there to intervene you destroying things, it's, it's my fault that it got destroyed. I shouldn't have put you in a position where it could get destroyed. If you're raising a dog that you intend to use for bite work or anything later on. And he bites your couch. Well, that's your problem. You're the one that should be getting the smack for letting the dog bite the couch, right? He should be biting stuff. You want him to bite stuff. Don't put him in a position where he can bite something you don't want. Recently, Rip smashed a window with his Thor hammer. Right. Now, what are the chances of a two year old being able to throw a hammer through a window? He's never seen a window break. He had no concept that it could break. He's never seen it, Adam's doing. So he's not in trouble when that happens, right? I was like, well, that's my fault. That's on me. Because I have-- You mean encouraging him to throw the hammer? Yeah, we throw the hammer everywhere, right? And that it went through the window is, that's on me. That's not his fault. Now, he knows not to throw the hammer because we've had to talk about it. We explain how you can do that, right? Now, he knows what the ground rules are. And again, it comes back to a form of communication. And he understands now that windows can break before they had no idea that that was a possibility. Like pulling the coffee cup on himself. Yeah, exactly. Well, if you ask him, that's a whole another story I've talked about another time, but he jumped in a fire. That's how he got that burn. He told me the story. It really? Yeah, that's quite an elaborate route. He told me the story about how it happened. And every detail was correct. It's just how it happened. He told me that he jumped in a fire. And it was because he was tired. And there was nowhere else to lie down. That's how he had to get in the fire. I like the way that kid thinks. Yeah, for anyone that was there. And he makes up stories kind of like I do. They go around and say, all right. That's it. Good thing, Alas. No, that's actually good. I'm happy with the way that conversation went. It actually went better than I thought it would go because we kind of made some on the spot. Well, we kind of were staging for an interview and it didn't happen. That's not the guess fault. That's my fault. And not structuring properly. Just something I want to say quickly. Sure. Right now it is 10 past 12. We're recording this 10 past 12. On what's the date? It's the 19th of June. So when you see someone with a Facebook video talking about how they invented putting tall bells and candles. Tall bells and candles. Come back to this. If the date stamp is time stamped. With time stamped. Or salty. And then they did. Yeah. But otherwise it would be like the numerous other people we see regurgitating stuff that we or other people have been saying and saying, look what I've invented, everybody. Well, and I'm not even saying I'm invented. I just explained how I stole it from Bart. I just changed it a little bit. And that's the thing is there's not a lot of unique material out there. It's marketed differently, explained differently. And sometimes it's just interpreted differently for people's ears. Sometimes people hear something that, I mean, I've spoken to some people before. I've told them about training applications. And they've sort of nodded along and gone, oh yeah. And I've heard somebody else say it. And they're going, oh wow. Like, wow, man. Do you believe that this golden message just came out of their mouth. And my ears just ate it up like a little kid eating a cupcake. And I think I just told you that. And you're kind of sitting there in amazement. I used to be so offended by that. But now I kind of think, well, it's about relationships. Yeah. Right to hear it from someone else. That's right. It's sometimes you're just ready to receive something from somebody else maybe because you like them more or they resonate with you or because you were involved in the conversation in a deeper level with them. And that's fine. I guess if you get the message, the main thing is getting the message, rather than having your ego wounded. That's it for another episode of the Canon paradigm. As always, if you like what you hear, jump onto whatever subscription service you download us from, like, rate, share, subscribe, all that stuff. And if you want to get in contact with us, you can do that via Facebook. We are the Canon paradigm. And we've been getting some good reviews. Yeah, we have. I just looked at our reviews lately on iTunes. And thank you so much to everybody who does take that pain in the ass time to log in and actually review it because it actually, it does help us. It continues the show going. We don't like to beg people or coerce them into doing the reviews, but it's important for us to get to a level and to be recognized and to get spread the word, I guess, and populate the show. So thanks, heaps. And while we're talking about it, we're finally going to figure out Patreon sometime this week and get that going pretty soon. And we'll have that set up. And we'll have Patreon-only content that's coming at some stage. Yep. All right, that's it. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING]