Episode 32: It's A Breeze

Hello, this is Bread for it, a podcast dedicated to the thoroughbred Bloodstock industry coming to you by a Bloodstock enthusiast for Bloodstock Enthusiasts. And I am looking forward to giving you more insight into the backbone of horse racing, as I aim to find out more with you in the company of Bloodstock Specialists as to what goes into breeding, from foiling, to rearing, covering, selling and all things in between. So come with me as we find out what makes race horses bread for it. This podcast has brought to you an association with Vivi Shapo, the unique cat brand of Vivi Rulo. Situated in London's chic Maritabone Lane, Vivi Shapo is the place to top off your race day style. Hello, welcome to a new episode of Bread for it. It is episode 32 and I am now safely back in the UK and loving this weather, it's definitely very spring-like and the flat season full swing. We are building up to the final day of the National Hunt season and then the classics are going to be upon us. More of that a little bit later and the focus of this podcast will be on the breeze-ups, a topic that's been at the forefront of many Bloodstock enthusiasts' minds. But I wanted to begin this episode by sending my deepest condolences to the friends and family of John Fleming, who tragically lost his life in a road accident at Dublin Airport. John was a hugely respected figure within the industry, a leading member of the breeze-up fraternity in Oon, Ebreda and a trusted accountant to many across the racing world. He was part of the syndicate behind the Philly Sir, seeing who won the coronation stakes at Royal Ascot last year and was one of the standout stories of the season. He was a passionate advocate for the breeze-up sector and he worked very closely with his friend and trainer Michael O'Callahan. He was also a long-time producer of the Irish Racing Year, but he dedicated over two decades to that publication that has become a cornerstone of the sport. And while I didn't know John personally very well, I met him a few times, I think it's fair to say that the tributes are poured in over the past few days, really speak volumes of him. You didn't need to know him, didn't need to know him to know the kind of man he was, generous, knowledgeable and really deeply committed to racing and getting more interested in the sport. And I wanted to share a short quote from a recent interview he gave to Amy Corardo in the Irish field, which sort of perfectly captures his passion and perspective. He was asked about the yearbook and how much it joy it gives him and to the industry that he's so passionate about. And he said, "The reason I published the yearbook is so the Irish Racing community has something to look back on the end of the year. I don't do it for the money, I just want to give back to the community we live and work in. At the end of the day, it's what I know, my friends, the racing community and people that I work with are all in racing, so it would be impossible not to get the bug for racing. We only live once, so why not enjoy it?" So thank you to John for everything that he has done and the people that he's inspired and worked with. This episode is dedicated to him, Mahi Rustin Peace. So the breeze-ups are also in full swing at present. We've had both the Craven breeze-up at Newmarket and the Goths breeze-up sale. It's been a challenging market across both sales. There were no headline million guinea-purchases as we saw over the last couple of years. The averages were notably down and clearance rates reflected a cautious buying bench. There have been concerns in the build-up around global uncertainty, particularly the Middle East. That seems to have played a role. Many vendors feeling the pressure in the lead-up. So what does this mean and what do men on the ground think about this and feel about this? Well, I'll be speaking to Cornmack Farrell a little later on. He has got a very much a close hand with what's going up on when it comes to the build-up of the 2000 guinea. So he's the perfect guest to speak about both topics as that first classic is near upon us now. The build-up has been shaped as much by setbacks as contenders. Tragically, the Jew Husband of Gawane was faced injured in his preparation for the race. A huge loss to the season of Caustor's owners to the Yulong partnership. Then the group won winners Aver Terry. We've just heard that he's been ruled out after his encouraging second in the Greenham. So notable bad luck for Eve Johnson-Horton. That horse we hope will be back in the middle part of the season. And then from the Adenobrine camp, it's been a real mixed picture, Albert Einstein. So heavily hyped preseason is disappointed on his return and leaves a few questions to answer heading into the classic. And it's Puerto Rico, the Adenobrine who's the shortest price of his runners. Among those with the more sexy profiles, if you like, you've done nothing wrong in the build-up. Two sons of Knight of Thunder, Boeco and Distance Store. They had the market. Both were exceptional two-year-olds. They had the same official rating of 115. And being by Estallian who had such an exceptional year on the track last year, it would be probably the right note for Knight of Thunder supporters to imagine him to start on if he was to win his first classic with one of his progeny. Of course, Knight of Thunder was a 2000 guineas winner himself. And Distance Storm, he mirrors the profile of last year's winner ruling court, through the Arcana Breeze Upsell and secured by owners Goodolfin. So in this episode, you'll hear from Cornmuck Farrell, the man behind Distance Storm's Breeze Up journey. And he talks to me about the extraordinary rise of the guineas contender, and how the mind-blowing experience of having a horse like him going through his hands has shaped his approach to this season. And later, we'll get a data-led perspective from Stephen Davison of Pipeas Sports, a company rapidly establishing itself at the forefront of Breeze Up analysis, and aiming to make a meaningful impact on how the Bloodstock market operates as a whole. So first up, let's hear from Breeze Upconcina Cornmuck Farrell, and a 90,000 guineer yearling by Knight of Thunder into 1.9 million Euro sell as a two-year-old, just six months later at Arcana. Let's hear about his extraordinary story and what a year it's been for him in and out of the selling. Yeah, just it's pretty surreal, really, because I'm not breezing horses very long, and we started off breezing horses that we bought for thousands, not tens of thousands. And we produced horses that were made, and that was kind of what we were aiming to do. And then we stepped up on board horses with more pedigree and more sort of, they obviously casted it for more. But this horse was bought for 90,000 guineers, and for him to be potentially like a classic winner. He's already, he's a classic contender, which is, it's amazing. Obviously the whole thing is just a bit like, I really believe in him. I can tell you're still a bit flabbergasted by it all, but look, if you look at his pedigree, it seems like it was a bit of a still in the first place. 90,000 guineers for a horse that ultimately is by the stallion that everyone's talking about in Knight of Thunder. But also from the damside, the wonderful George Washington, who's wonderful in the race course, this being the damside, obviously he was infertile. But you to get hold of the horse that has that even some sort of connection to that stallion, must have been quite special. Did you think you kind of got something a little bit of a bargain, or did he come with a few question marks that you had to, that was putting others off? Well, when we got him in 90,000, we absolutely felt we'd stolen him. Like whether he turned into a horse that was going to run in the guineas or not, who, how could you possibly know him? I remember there was a couple of us involved and we had him, you know, a much bigger figure in our heads. We were really sticking our chest out and we thought we had no chance of buying him. And when the hammer dropped to 90,000, we were obviously delighted to get him. And quite shocked really that. And I think he fell between two stools. He was too fancy for a lot of breeze up guys. You know, the thought he would probably make too much money. And to be fair to Julian Dollar, he said to me, like not long before the horse was coming up, he said, "Have you vetted this horse?" And I hadn't. So we quickly vetted him. Like he's just slipped off the big lists. He had a few small little things about him, you know, but nothing, you know, he vetted clean. And he just probably liked an inch and he had just a small little bits and pieces about him, but like nothing. That would start from being a talented race horse. He just slipped and we got extremely lucky on the day. It's just one of those things. And what was it like seeing him develop sort of from that yearling, breaking him in and seeing him sort of probably grow over the winter months? Did you see sort of a bit of a sort of a butterflies sort of coming out of its shell type of thing? Yeah, he was so under the radar or winter to be honest. He was so like, it was just simple. He just went about his day and he went about his work and he ate well and he sort of, he had very little to go wrong and it was just kind of plain sailing. Like I get genuinely couldn't have told you he was a good horse until sort of he breathes as well as he did. Because we just go through the motions of prepping them all and we just, I suppose the only thing that really stood out with him is how he would always pull up after a bit of work and be completely unfazed. And he rarely ever had a blow. So he obviously had a huge engine. But like he never worked the house down. You know, we liked him obviously because of how easy and he found everything. So clearly we thought a bit of him but we couldn't possibly have known he was the level of what he was to be honest. And a lot of you know, you watch now what do all these buyers look for? What do the blood stock agents look for? And it is a lot about what's happening outside of the breeze that nowadays, you know, people are taking more sort of more literal, more literally like things like that point after the breeze, you know, what they do as they pull up and how they take it. And that seems to be maybe one of the strengths that he had. His core, his main strength was his mind. He was just bombproof. You know, we produce them all the same. They do plenty of away days and they have to see the world as a huge ask of a young horse to breeze, you know, into sort of crowds of people and on their own in a straight line. So like you're trying to prepare them mentally as well as physically but like mentally there wasn't the man he was just so solid. He just really was, you know, and I think that Stalin is kind of pulling that into his stock a lot. But that was probably the main takeaway from the horse and then, you know, I was lucky enough to go see him work on the role he made last week during the Craven and the exact same thing. He just walked around like a dude and it was just so, it was just such an exciting thing to do to watch him and see how he had improved physically, which he really has. I mean, he has transformed, I have to say, he seems to have booked out so much. So the whole thing is incredibly exciting and I can't wait to see him turn up. I know that Norman Williamson was, it got very close with Charlie Afflebee discussing really in court in this kind of process as well. So they've been quite open with you. They kept you sort of in the loop and do you feel like you sort of, because we have only seen what again, that piece of work as well and it seems like, you know, from the betting he's very much up there. But it seems like this is, this is their number one and he's taken all the right steps that they need to over the winter to sort of be the sort of ruling courts at part two. Well, look, I have to say Charlie's been so kind and kept me completely like informed as to how the horse is getting on. Like, you know, anytime I call or leave a message, he'd call me back and had a really good chat with him after the horse worked himself and William Buick. So that was like, you know, pinching me sort of stuff to be honest. I'm like a little child of these guys. They're so good at doing. But like, I have to say, from the day Charlie got the horse, he's been so complimentary about him. And I, I've always got this impression like of, like these such successful trainers that they don't get excited about horses, but Charlie was excited about this horse, like from the very beginning. And like, that's kind of like pretty cool that he must be kind of doing things extremely well at home. And he has put up some huge performances. And I think if he can bring his A game, he's going to be very, very competitive in what's a very open guinea's really so cool. Yeah, it's going to be exciting because you've got, you know, obviously, I had imagined attending a guinea is to see a horse that you produce, you pin hurt and breeze, you know, line up for a race like that. But then only a week later, you'll be heading back to our carner for the breeze ups again. Tell me about the last year and what happens in a year after you sell a horse for just under two million. Do you change your view on how you go out and buy yearlings? Do you, do you try and buy even more or do you try and stick the same, but you've just got a bigger budget? What are the differences? My numbers have maybe increased marginally, but we have spent a lot of money on yearlings and it's a current economic climate. It causes me a lot of sleeper snikes. But I'm very optimistic that I have an incredibly exciting bunch of horses. Like, I've gone out of my way to buy horses that I think can be classic horses. And sure they're not all very expensive, but there's a lot of expensive ones amongst them. But in their training all through the winter, I've been, you know, excited by good few of these horses and I just hope we can do it again. I would like to just, you know, mad to think you're just your chances are slim, but I'll definitely be trying to find another horse that's good at them. I mean, look, you'd have to look up to likes of Norm who's produced five classic winters, like stuff like, you know, an insane record. And you're just trying to better yourself every year. We've certainly sort of spent more money, but we've just kept things the same and produced the horses best we can and hopefully there's something there amongst them that will pay for all these expensive horses. I know you went to Keenland and obviously tathasels would be a kind of a happy hunting ground. But was it probably, you know, the way the climate was? I mean, being at Keenland myself, I could see how expensive it was. You sort of needed that boost of sort of finances anyway to be competitive because it seemed like that was the biggest playground that everyone wanted to play in in America. Tathasels was as vibrant as ever and there seems to just be a bigger pool of pinhookers even more. Well, it definitely seemed to be in 2025 anyway. Oh, the sails were so difficult to buy in this year and I'm like, obviously, you know, Keenland more than any other sail. But there's value everywhere if you get lucky. Like, I mean, you do have to be lucky, but I work them incredibly hard. Like, we, you know, a couple of guys helped me and we work the sails incredibly hard, try and see as many horses as possible. And we saw the first horse that we bought in Keenland in the grave. And last week, just for horses who look exciting. And we have a few more American horses going to Arcana. So like, it was, it was very hard and they were very expensive. And I just hope that the market is good in France because so far it's been quite, quite difficult, but people are seen to be more optimistic about the chances of the market being better in France. So let's hope so. Yeah, so tell me about the the breeze up says, I attended the Craven. I was sort of watching from afar, Donnie. It did look, it looked patchy, it looked tough. And there were murmurs around ahead of the sails that the consigners were concerned with, you know, the situation in the Middle East. But what is that like for you for you all? Is there a lot of chat and just we need to see and we can't, there's nothing that we can do to control it? Do you have to change your attack? Do some horses have to do, do you end up having to not sell horses? What happens for you when, you know, what you worry about sort of becomes reality on the sails ground? Well, yeah, well, it's completely out of control to start with. So we have to try and make the best of a bad situation. I mean, it's what's going on in the Middle East is is costing everybody a lot of money. Like so you can understand why there's some economic, you know, insecurity or, you know, the mindset of that. But you get to the sail and you just do your job, you try and you try and find somebody to buy a horse from you. That's, you know, hopefully it's pretty well, but, you know, you sell them as best you can't. What was noticeable for me in Doncaster was the amount of agents missing. You know, like I was really surprised that, and I'm not going to name them, but because there's too many to name to be honest, but there was a huge amount of the buying bench not in Doncaster to find Quite hard to understand. And because like if my view of the police officers, maybe this is their opportunity to get a bit of value, has Michael O'Calaan pointed out in an interview yesterday? Like it's, you know, you can take the view that there's a value to be had now. And I thought that it would be a little bit more of that going on, but anyway, it's just, it's just, we'll have to write it out and hope that the strength in America comes across to France because obviously the American say is looking credible. And if the sort of thing in the US, sort of maybe might trickle into France because the horses are there, more, much more sort of classic type of horse that, yeah. You know, people will want, hopefully, fingers crossed. So hopefully that would pick up a bit, but yeah, it's been, it's been very difficult. And with that in mind, I don't know if you get any feedback at all from the blood stockings that just aren't there, but is it just that, you know, trainers and owners, maybe in this country, all those owners that want to own horses in here, they did their spending as, as Yelling with the Yelling and probably maybe even struggling to get them sort at this stage. So this final aspect of, of purchasing horses is just not, it's just not viable at this time. And do you think it will come background? Because we've gone through so many different worries and issues. You know, COVID was probably the most obvious one where there was, you know, people weren't really in the mood to buy. And we've had a lot of economic problems before that. Do you think that this is just one of those things that will just correct itself? Or, you know, there's something that you always, you always going to have in the back of your mind? Well, the blood stock industry is so resilient. I mean, it will correct itself. Like, it's just going to be a case of who survives. Like, that's a very harsh reality. But like, these corrections, there's casualties. Like, you know, people end up getting in trouble financially because they've over-invested. I could be number one candidate for that at the end of the end of the breeze-ups in our car now. Is that, and is that for you if you don't sell and you don't make the money back? And what happens do you have to put it in training yourself? What, what would that look like? Yeah, look, there's horses that will go in the path and to put in training and hope that the horse and training market is good for the horses. I try and avoid, like, you know, bringing horses home from the breeze-ups, but it's going to happen a little bit this year anyway. And then, you know, we put them in training and we get some form and hope that the world sort of comes down a little bit and then the horse and training market is there for them at the end of the year. But things will, I'm an optimistic person, like people would joke about how optimistic I am. And, like, I'm sure we'll come back around. But how long it's going to take? Sure, you know, we just don't know. So you had to, so you had to, or, hopefully, off the back of the horse running very well for you and the guineas, if not winning. That will be a great, and I like to hope there's at least some sort of marketing materials you have at our corner to showcase that to the world. Tell me a little bit more about the two-year-olds that you have. Any of them that stand out that I suppose might just be the ones that can kind of fulfill, I suppose, a pretty high benchmark that you've made for yourself. Yeah, well, look, I hate naming individual horses because, like, you know, I think I have a very good bunch of horses across the board, but we'd have to be very excited about, like, I have a flight line, Philly, which, you know, he obviously has been in the headlines recently, with the call to make all the money. Yeah, 10 points, something million, and that was a breeze up as well, isn't it? Yeah, so look, we'll be hoping to get 11 million for the Philly. And pay for everything. No, look, hopefully she turns up. We like her a lot. She's exciting. We've a night at Thundercoald. That looks lovely. St Mark's Basilica. I'm involved with Mick Murphy with a lovely look to make a horse. So we have all the right stallions, and, you know, we just kind of hope they turn up on the day, and breeze well, our sound, and then the market is there for them, you know. Look, if this storm wins against, like, we'll have a big batter open. I'll be fine with you, don't worry. With flight lines out of interest, you know, as horses, you know, this is still quite new, and I haven't, I was sore, I'm at Keenlin, but I didn't get close enough, and there was no point releasing too many for my perspective. What are they like as horses? You know, in terms of you speak about the mind of the night at Thunder's, what are the sort of the qualities that flight lines seem to possess? Well, I looked at, you know, a few, very few, because obviously there was very few. We're going to land in budget for my budget. But one thing that was striking actually was that he didn't stamp his duck at all. They seem to, the appearance was sort of get a lot from the damside. I think a lot of people would agree with that. But in terms of, you know, the, the, the, the philly I have, her temperament is, is, is just second to none. She's a beautiful, minded philly, and very athletic. I mean, I, her, I don't know what the data is, because I don't record it, but her, her stride length seems to be off, you know, very visually, very big, and she covers the ground well in a very economical manner. So I'd say, you know, she just seems to be very straightforward and relaxed. Yeah, hopefully she breezes very fast. She seems to work very smart. But like, I genuinely, when I get to the breeze ups, like, I, I, I know that I like them and that they work well and they've got the chance of being good. But I never know, you know, are they the real, real deals? You couldn't know, I mean, but hopefully, um, it's interesting. You mentioned that you don't, you don't, so the data side of it isn't something that you, you do yourself. But when, when you, will you be fascinated, I'm not sure, you're going to have all the times come, will come through, but there will be data points, which people are setting in every shape, every single molecule horses are tracked now as data coming out of everywhere. Does it concern you that you don't know and that you'll go in without, without, that knowledge, or is it quite exciting to sort of add that to what you've already seen with your own eyes? Well, interesting enough, I, um, um, myself and Adam Parts have spoken about sort of using RNA or equipment, um, and, and we're probably going to try, try it, uh, in the next couple of weeks before the sale, but like, we won't be doing anything like max effort, but it'll be, I think we're going to use it on a few horses and just see, um, you know, just for our own interest, but, uh, yeah, I think we'll all become, to, to use, uh, data bit more, um, I, because I think, you know, probably does kind of cause me a little bit concerned that I don't know more than I know about the horses going to the sales, um, like you'd like to give, uh, the parts that are a little bit of confidence that you, you've seen all these things throughout the season, but, uh, yeah, I don't know, it's an interesting one, I'm, I'm all for, uh, technology, so it's something that I'm very much looking into at the moment, actually. So wrapping up and going back to distance storm, will you be watching it from home, as opposed to attending? No, no, I'll be, I'll actually be in France, I'm, uh, so I'll be watching it on a TV and some pub and france program. Okay, we'll do the watch out, um, I hope that, yeah, I hope it goes well for you. Cool, thank you so much. The best of luck on all accounts, um, for, for racing and for the breeze ups and, um, we'll be following it all very, very closely. So thank you very much. Thanks a minute, just, pretty good. So from one vendor talking to me about beginning to introduce data to his preparation for the breeze ups to a man driving data in bloodstock. Stephen Davidson of Pythea Sports joins me to discuss what he does and what Pythea is and why data is at the helm of, um, his business and the world of bloodstocks. Stephen, thank you so much for joining me. Talk to me about Pythea, what you've produced, not just in bloodstock and what the background of your business is. Yeah, thanks very much, Jess, for having me on. Um, so Pythea Sports is a model and software development company. We've got three, three strands to our business. Um, so one is, um, we provide proprietary, uh, trade and, uh, models for, for trade and, um, so that's focusing on, um, all the different metrics that you'd have involved in, uh, in a horse race. Um, we provide that for proprietary weight-ridden group. Um, the second part of our business is we've got a, um, the P2B arm, which we launched in, in 2020. That works with all the manager media rights holders around the globe. So, um, over in a recent RMG, which means we're going to do the first tab call. And we've got stuff with him, P and U, S and S. So we kind of roll that into a wristband at service where I'll be to be off. And then the latest one, which is the one that you want to chat about today is our blood stop. So we've been doing this for three years now, focusing on the breeze up only. And yeah, look, I'm just trying to roll this out potentially in the future to other areas of blood stop as well. But essentially, we are a data science company providing models for, predict that, predict the models for the market. And I can sort of understand why the breeze ups would be the obvious pace to start because it has a data set quite already involved with it with times. But what is it that you can provide and you thought, OK, we're going to try and crack breeze ups first. And what have you sort of created with your model? So it came about originally because the CEO of our company got a license from the Hong Kong Drocky Club. And there was a Griffin license. So it had to be obviously an unrest horse. So there was two options. You buy a user hedge and buy a yielding or we try to see if there was anything expertise within our business that we could try and put together to try and point them in the right direction. So we decided to do that. Now that was in 2023. We just did it internally. So it looked very different than how it does now. So there was three horses. One-- with the idea of being they would go to John and Sean Quinn to be trend. And then the best one of that bunch would remain unraised against Hong Kong. That was the plan. One horse is actually still with John and Sean now, master of my faith. Sort of really steady, highly-capped where around the flow and in between the Louis, the high east, where I was career. One didn't make the grade. And then the other one was a horse called master of my university, which is with John Seiss in Hong Kong and kind of flits between class two and class three company and there's one race is out there at Shartin, Happy Valley. So we thought, all right, we've got some to hear. Can we try and look to see if we can commercialize it? And that's when we started to go to the market in 2024. Pitch the idea to clients. And you are right that there is a lot more that are available in the breeze and there would be any yielding. So our yielding model that we're putting together now, the information we've got there, we have all of that for the breeze, but we actually get to see these horses run on the track. So yieldings would be pedigree focus where it was born. The stud, the pedigree, of course, and all those things do copy across to the breeze. But we're seeing them run on the track. We're seeing the stride. And so yeah. And so what is it that you're really looking to capture from the breeze, as I said, the times are one thing. But we hear a lot about stride data, biometrics. You're really looking into every single angle of the horse as they're striding out. And what is it that you're really filing from that? And what have been the biggest success, as opposed from the data that you're gaining? So the model has three sections. It has the breeze time. It has the stride profile and the biomechanics school. Now we're just basing-- and then other things that don't have an individual factor, so it could sign it or a pedigree. Or they're in the model, but it's not like a individually school at what's past to the client. So all the times get passed around, but we do them ourselves on the track. The time model is basically analyzing the sectional's over the breeze. We then adjust it for the sales conditions where it ran on the track, positioning it running in the breeze. We'll look at it in splits as well. So if they're-- how they run it, the first film, the second film on the calipel. We may upgrade our downgrade search sections of that breeze. It's more than just the raw time. The stride profile tracks each stride as the horse gallops that would combine in it with the split times, which allows us to quantify to see if the stride profile changes at all as the horse accelerates. Or when it reaches the top speed, if we think it can maintain it beyond that. Because we're only seeing these horses over 2 1/2 film. That's right, there's no races over 2 1/2 film. So we're trying to predict would that horse based upon the pettigree, based on the time being able to maintain that stride profile throughout the breeze. Now the stride itself is probably the one everyone's most interested in, because everyone can see the times and agents and trainers can see the horses, which is part of the walk. But we're looking at the ability to see how long a horse can maintain. It's not going to be a lot of time. It's going to be a lot of time to see the horse. So we're going to see how long a horse can maintain that stride once it gets to the top speed. So we'll kind of have 30 plus individual factors that are in there, whether it's the cadence, the length, how many times the 10, the legs of it, everything down, like the pointing of the toe. And so there's quite a lot that goes into it. So it's kind of combining a bit of everything, taking into account the data, but also the information that the agents may get from consigners who over the years are vastly improving how they produce horses. I'm saying, looking at some of the times we've had so far during the breeze, there's a lot of them clocked together. And I think that's testament to the ability to the consigners together, ready to breeze. Yeah, and it's so difficult, you know, you're spitting hairs, aren't you? It might be, you might, might clock 50, but actually it's a, it's a military school the second between 30 and 50. So when you can have more data points, it's so important. And imagine it's the bloodstock agents and ultimately the owners that are really looking for these data sets as well to sort of enhance their, their ability to understand the, the horse and to sort of push them forward into making that final decision. What is the feedback being from bloodstock agents as to how, you know, this is helping them sort of come up with their lists and kind of really sort of make those hard decisions on who they're going to go for. What are they, what are they really appreciating that you're kind of offering them here? Yeah, we work with some great agents. Billy Japs has stopped us being used in a data for a couple of years and he's really, really involved in, you know, how we're getting to the numbers we're coming to. Billy does all his work first and then comes to the data at the end, which I think is quite a nice way to do it. It takes us about, it takes us about five to seven hours roughly from the last horse breeze and to collect the, because we do every single horse in the breeze. So whether you're number one or whether you're not 215 from golf this week or whatever we do every single one. So some agents were, we spoke to in the past, think that it's maybe not as important to them and they can still find horses themselves, which they're absolutely 100% pandew. But I think having this to run alongside it can be quite a powerful tool. So yes, but there has been a lot of, a lot of people who are very, very keen to at least find out what we're doing. And, you know, there's a couple of agents to three agents who use this train as as well. George Scott, George Bowie, Tom Clover, we've sent, we've had a couple of sending horses and we sent horses to, Bethel as well. So it's kind of a wide range of trainers who are very interested in what we're doing. Hugo Palmer has been a big supporter of last four, three years now alongside Michael or at Manahausen, they're really taught by and into trying to find that extra edge. And Michael's background, of course, from being a footballer is quite interested. A chat with him about how he saw the big change in football, to how it's kind of coming into racing a lot more now. So George, Billy Ducks and Stops, Gawane was obviously, he was obviously sadly no longer with us, but his big success story from the breeze ups last year. Were you anything to do with that? Was that a horse that he was sort of using additional data points? Because, you know, he was a bit of a still in the end. And sometimes I think, you know, does the best data just correlate with the horses that end up making the most money? Because that's, you know, the best times normally mean the biggest money as well. You know, for those who are just wanting to just really get a bit of value, but all the data says this horses a machine. How are they really going to find that sort of value in there, plus having all those big numbers that you can produce? Yeah, so to Chino and Gawane obviously incredibly sad and what happened to the horse. And I think we were all really excited to see it run in the game. So yeah, really sad what happened. But Billy was using our data, the Arcana sale. We had that horse of the very good stride in a very solid biomechanic score. It's time and was about 80 seconds on the time list. So really wasn't a particularly quick time. But Billy was able to say that all right, the data's actually got it down as a decent stride and decent biomechanic score. And Billy himself liked Metathand, liked the consigner and kind of took a point on it. I think the word numerous other people that were on that horse, but I think it was Billy kind of was the one that took a chance and went with it. But yeah, it was a horse that was very solid on our day and it's really sad what happened to it. Yeah, so again, it just goes to show that the timings, because, you know, ultimately we think with breeze ups, you've got, you're going to have these out and out two-year-olds that are going to be, you know, slam-bank quick. And actually we see a lot of these breezes being turn into better type of mylers. And this is where you can't really see on the clock. That stride data is what really should match up with the pedigree to suggest that they're going to be slightly more, sort of, a horses that need a little bit longer. And you'd want them to have a nice big stride if they're going to be a mylers. a lot of time. Yeah exactly. Different clients have got different needs, right? So we've just, we've, um, not sure when you put this up, but we've just finished a golfs and golfs all the marketing and all the chat is, you know, Royal Astro horses. So everyone's looking for like the type of speedy attention. You can actually see it when you go around and look at the horses that last week at golfs, they were potentially taller. They touched smaller and a lot more speedy of types, but ones that you can imagine seeing ask about, um, ask on June. If in our corner in a couple of weeks or time, that tends to be a sale which will lend itself to sort of the more three-year-old type horse, I would say. And we actually see it when we, um, when we put our data out that there is a lot more emphasis on time at golf sale for us that it will be at our corner. We put more emphasis on our model towards Australian. The Craven's a real mix back. You get a real nice mix there. So really nice horses last week at the Craven as well. Um, so yeah, there's a, there's a mixed real mix in there, something for everyone. Um, I think Marino with, with the pedigrees as well, um, you can kind of, you can kind of, the agents and trains can kind of put together what they see as an early tour of versus something that is potentially going to need a little bit more time. And so what about the consigners, those that, you know, I mentioned how Cormac Farrell said, you know, it doesn't really use data and the consigners are the ones that are producing the horses, but ultimately it's those vendors and the owners and the trainers that are just crunching all the numbers. Do you think that the consigners would benefit from actually producing their own data points to be able to show what this horse has been sort of doing in the build up or how it's steadily been improving or aspects like that. Do you see that maybe as the future for it? You know, you mentioned football and how much data is being used. What do you see? Do you see that both sides, both consigners and, and, and buyers should be sort of using this as a way to benefit themselves? Yeah, I mean, it wouldn't be for me to tell consigners how to prepare the horse, but, um, yeah, I can't, I can't see how it would be, um, how the negative impact on it, um, I speak to, um, a couple of the consigners and they're all very, uh, interested in what we're doing and I know a couple of them do time them as well, um, you know, I've, um, been involved myself with a couple of the yieldings I've sent the breeze and I'm getting sent to a running on data, so I've got an idea on how fast they're going already, so there is definitely some consigners there who were who were using, um, some time, at least to have a look at the horses before they go to the breeze, but these guys have been doing for a lot of years, right? They kind of, uh, are very skilled at what they do, so, um, yeah, will it help? Yeah, but they've still managed to have very successful careers in budget stone, some extra horses without it, so, um, but I think it would add some to, uh, to the offer and for sure. Yeah, it's probably a bit like trainers. Some trainers, maybe more fashion, oh, fashion ones, sort of a trying to, um, bring data into their training, but, you know, it's probably the younger ones who, you know, have seen it, as you've mentioned, work so well and football, um, talk to me a little bit about the, sort of, the training side of it and, um, the breeze has now been going to training, you probably have as much as the association or you want to see how that sort of translates. Uh, how, how much is, how much of your, is your business working with trainers beyond just the, the purchasing side and in the full daily training regime? What does that look like? So, so, so this is a business not really anything after the breeze, um, some of them might get in touch with us to ask about where, where it was on the day, but once it's kind of, uh, past the trainer that's kind of, it's gotten you, a new cycle, same as we're not going to imagine it's sent for when the consigners then go to a trainer as well, right? They're just kind of like right over to the trainer and I'll see what they do with it. Horses can mature differently, um, different temperament as well, what they've saw, the breeze might not necessarily what's transpiring at home, but kind of once the, once they've gone to the trainers, not a huge amount, um, that'll be getting involved with, we've got a small, um, a small syndicate that we put together with, um, either, um, employing sub-ars or friends or friends that we've had for, um, for this year, so we do have a bit more, uh, contact with, with those trainers, um, after that, but we don't, we don't tend to get involved, um, kind of leave it to trainers then. And, and from the blood sort of side, you mentioned that you're looking or exploring at some stage, potentially going to the yearling sales. So, how much more complex is that? Obviously, we've got, we have less to work on, we just have a walk and obviously trying to sort of work out the stride length via a walk and it's more confirmation basis of anything. Is that a, a different kind of castle of fish for your, for your data team to try and get their, their, their fingers on underneath? Yeah, exactly. So, a different challenge, um, we've been doing the work on that for sort of six months now, um, we'll be ready when we get a bit more, um, sort of development time back from the guys who are working on the breezips. So, three or four weeks time, we'll then sort of, um, put some heavy testing on that, make sure it works. First of all, we're pretty sure it will, because our breezip model, um, is work, but we'll, we'll then test it against the last 10 years of, of the yearling data and we'll, we'll kind of not tell the model the results. We'll say, right, pick out what you would have said. So, we'll have a look at the yearling sale from eight years ago, for example, look at Bucco and look at Bucco and look at Bucco to the touch and say, right, we'll have to be great these then. We'll then check to be like, well, right, what did they do on the track? If they did absolutely nothing, they might need to retest it, or if you know, if it did turn out to be a steady group of horses, then we can be like, all right, we are better than normal here. We are better than, uh, in informed view and informed view, plus our model should equal better results overall for them, for that owner, for that, and do you say? Yeah, and so, uh, fascinating. I'm sure there's so many ideas around bloodstock. The opportunities kind of feel a bit endless, you know, I'm thinking in my head, those, the breeders that want to sort of work out the best match for their, their mayor to a stallion, for example, you know, mayors that have performed well and their, you know, we always talk about, and I talk a lot about stallion, to stallion men and to breeders about matching your mayor with the stallion, getting the right models, the physics, and we know that some stallions can only have the same, the right size mayors, things like that, knowing what they were like on track to match them with the right stallion, is quite, it could be quite an interesting aspect to know that data to just add to your, your thinking. Is that, is that kind of the future? Is that something that you, you might think about? Yeah, I think every single aspect of bloodstock, I can think of, will be on our future roadmap. So, yeah, yeah, it is the next place for us to start, mainly because it's the biggest market, if you look at the global, the global bloodstock market, what I think, all every single sale around the world is two and a bit billion, I think, braze ups in the European market is about 60, 60 million last year. We did about a million of that. So, it's sort of, we've got like a small percentage of that market, but if we can get that percentage across at a global bloodstock portfolio, then I think is something that is, is quite powerful. And I think I'd be really interested in doing horses and train and trying to find pangs and horses that will suit, suit different types of races, different jurisdictions. So, I think, and that in plans, I think you mentioned as well, there is a huge, huge opportunity out there and I think we're with our background and our data capabilities, probably best placed to at least give the market a bit of a steer in what we think that there should be point towards in the future. And finally, to finish off, obviously, you know, could try to get more people into race saying, trying to get people to understand bloodstock is, you know, massive, massive push from my perspective, especially from a breeding point of view. But how helpful do you think this could be for those that might not understand horses as much, but they get racing, they like the science behind it, they're more sort of mathematical minded. You know, how important is this? And have you had any feedback, you know, maybe not just in this country, but kind of globally touched on Hong Kong, about how this can actually generate more interest in our sport because you've got more data and you've got more understanding and it's not just about being a horseman and having to rely on the horse people around you to give you your knowledge. You actually feel like you've got more tangible evidence that you can kind of go through and kind of form your opinions with. Yeah, absolutely. You know, we'd love to try and pull as many new people as possible in the race and we need blood in race. I know it's a big push for everyone across the board from the wagering side of things, getting more people to come and enjoy the race and have a bear. I know for myself, I got involved in this sort of one, when I was really young, not really from a horse race and background apart, you know, families to watch on the telly and stuff like that, but being pulled in and having as many new people in there as it could only be a good thing. There's loads of new initiatives going on at the moment and this could potentially be something that gets someone who's able to get involved in a horse, you know, do something to get the teeth so again. I know we had a lot of interest when we did a little bit of PR market and around the breeze of class, we got a lot from Australia. I do kind of think that they are nicely positioned with the way they structure their syndicate so, but in particular that, you know, you could package this all together as a day, a package with a syndicate option at the end. We're hopefully going to be working with some Aussie guys at our corner this year. So yeah, I think it is a new way that could potentially get new people who aren't already involved in ownership in the horse race and then I think going forward is actually something that we're going to try and sort of look at and do ourself. And finally for you, I think that's so interesting, you know, yourself being a man that's kind of got come into horse racing. Did you ever think that bloodstock, that industry, our industry was kind of accessible because I'd imagine from the outside looking in, it looks a little bit daunting and there's so much that, you know, it's quite a, it's not a closed off part of the sport, but you don't see it as much on TV. you know, there's a lot of people spending a lot of money on, you know, just horses that haven't done anything. But now that you're involved in it yourself, personally, how much have you enjoyed that process to kind of understand the side of the sport that, you know, I'm hoping to give more kind of time for everyone to understand about. But sometimes it can look a little bit close off of others. Yeah, I suppose it can do about, I'm missing, trainers are dying out for new people to come and go and bond with. So if anyone was thinking about getting the start, they let them out and they'd be, you know, one of the trainers, and I'm sure they'll definitely be able to put you in the right direction. But no, I think it's very welcome and sport in general. I mean, we've got loads of mates involved and bits of horses and you go and sit them. You know, I've never had a trainer so you can't come to the yard like every time you reach out to them. So I'm going to come to the yard next week, I'm around on Thursdays, incredibly rare that someone will say no. So I've been in many odds and even just going out to show this probably many people say, yeah, come down to this and I'm going to come and see this in new market and we just go around and pitch it with the laptop and take them through it. And I've come to you and it is an incredibly welcome and industry and I would encourage anyone that's thinking about getting involved, particularly if they want to breeze that to get in touch with someone. Yeah, brilliant. Well, the best of light especially with our carner, hopefully you find another go on with Billy and the other clients that you work with and we look forward to seeing how it develops especially for the for the yearling sales or the best. With thanks to my two guests on this episode of Bread for It and firstly to come up far all the best, I'd like to him as he embarks on a very exciting week also with a distant storm first up in the guineas, a horse that he saw for 1.9 million at the breeze up at our carner last year. And he heads back to Dovel as he mentioned, he'll be watching the guineas from a bar in Dovel and his consignorship C.F. Bloodstock have a number of high profile horses going through the ring, including that flight line he mentioned. That is a lot 60 of the sale. There are three flight lines going through and as we touched upon, there was a flight line that saw for 10 million dollars at America not so long ago. So they're all the rage and it is of note those that are now here in Europe. So as I said, thanks to Call back and the best of light to him and to Steve Adavison of Pithia Sports leading the way of including more data points within the bloodstock industry and I'm sure we're going to hear more about that as it broadens its wings around the whole sales scene. That's it for me. I've got plenty more to come. I've got more international stories as well. I hope you're enjoying this podcast wherever you're tuning in and I will be back with you very soon.