Episode 31: Aussie Rules

Hello, this is Bread for it, a podcast dedicated to the thoroughbred Bloodstock industry coming to you by a Bloodstock enthusiast for Bloodstock Enthusiasts. And I am looking forward to giving you more insight into the backbone of horse racing, as I aim to find out more with you in the company of Bloodstock Specialists as to what goes into breeding, from folling, to rearing, covering, selling and all things in between. So come with me as we find out what makes race horses bread for it. This podcast has brought to you an association with Vivi Shapo, the unique Cat brand of Vivi Rulo. Situated in London's chic Maridabo lane, Vivi Shapo is the place to top off your race day style. Hello, welcome to any episode of Bread for it. It is episode 31 and I start with an apology. I owe my flat breeding enthusiast's an apology. It has been a while, it's been far too long. You have to roll back to January of this year since I last focused on the flat game. So with the flat tough season fully underway now, the first two year old races have been run. There's so much chatter on the first season sides to follow. And of course, the up and coming classics too, it is only right to return to this media part of this industry. From a blood stop perspective, the first of the breeze up cells are just around the corner with a craving cell at tattels hosting some of the most precocious talent in Europe. For those hungry owners and trainers to get their hands on, it's an exceptionally exciting time for the consigners. If last year is anything to go by, it's going to be another great year. There's always so much hype and so much talk about those that are going to set the new records and with the likes of Zanthoska one and ruling court showing what the breeze up can produce. I will not be surprised if there's going to be some really exciting talent coming from the breeze up and across the world, well, the year this year's flat talent is about to reveal itself in Europe. Internationally, the racing has been hot for the last few months and calling rising has to be the king of the international scene. The global scene here's the most exciting racehorse we've seen for a long time. The New Zealand bread wonder horse he is, he's recorded his 19th straight victory in Hong Kong whilst in in Australia, there is an embarrassment of that quaint riches and they continue to shine within the autumn carnivals, both a quaint and human talent. James McDonald breaking records achieving 130 group one wins on autumn boy making him a history maker. And then Rachel King another trailblazer they come in the first female to win the Australian Derby and the Philly Sheezer alibi a daughter of Saxon warrior proving the biggest bargain by this century at $10,000. A wienling turning into a multiple group one superstar for trainers, Peter Moody and Catherine Coleman and Australia for a long time has said a whole of stars that transcends across the globe and a weekend really rarely goes by with that international racing found sort of gasping at. The support racing has in the country the engage and enthusiastic atmosphere that absorbs racing fans and also the outstanding prize money you're going to throw in the sublime weather conditions and it's no wonder so many European racing players set up camp in these climbs and I have been lucky enough to be out here for the last week in Sydney covering the round which championships it's been extraordinary honor to say the least and it's. Allow me to touch base with the number of the expat racing fraternity who have been successful and turning Australia into their home so in this special Australian focus episode of bread for it I speak to two members of the industry and why they have focused their racing and blood stock matters here. What this country provides the differences and opportunities compared to Europe and what is opposed international racing can learn from that observations of the industry through an Australian lens. First Louis Lemontier originally from France but a blood stock agent here in Sydney he set up a stupe blood stock over 10 years ago and I caught up with him ahead of Mr Monaco's run in the $2 million Sydney Cup at Randwick a horse he bought from the tassels horses and training sell from raf Beckett. He left the UK with a rating of 95 is a son of territories who's gone on to win four races here in Australia and he's a mast over 400,000 dollars in prize money I wanted to find out more about buying him and his experiences as a blood stock agent here in Australia. So Louis I noticed your enthusiasm and excitement when you went up to draw for Mr Monaco in the Sydney Cup here at Randwick on Saturday a horse that you purchased but I see you've also got ownership in. Tell me about buying Mr Monaco and the point to now to get into such prestigious race. Where we bought him and the horse in training says it's a tattlet's horse two years ago so 2024 is just a magnificent horse and with a decent form although he hadn't won a stake race or place in his stake straight so group race and you know it was you had to be a bit of a form expert to understand why we picked him and as a result when we bought him on spec for 420,000 pounds we find very hard to sell him. So but the horse came good because he yeah it was it was not an obvious horse we it wasn't a group we know anything so but we're not selling him he started his first preb his first two runs were a little bit below par and then he just as soon as you go to the right distances 2000 plus he blossom and so is very exciting horse for us. We've had a bit of luck buying horses at a year we bought my first horse bought a tattlet's horse was a horse called the tattlet's horse in train was a horse called plot to say one two stakes races for us and Harlem one two training cup for us so always like going back to buying horse at a year and also the yaks sell we bought a couple of stakes when is at the axel Elias of Elima super. And obviously the pedigrees the those lines are the ones that you had to come by and in Australia so is that what you're looking at is that is that something that we hear a lot of but you can't kind of underestimate that is any more than you can do when you when you're trying to sell these horses to new clients. Yeah, well you we also buying we're buying pedigrees you're we trying we're looking for likely race horses that I've got that progressive that I've got plenty left in the tent and also fitness like that there's you're somewhat somehow buying a residual fitness because not sure if you spend much time in the training centers in Australia but there's very few training centers Australia can they can try and a horses fit as they can do in Europe you know so so when you when you buy proven leads to a good stay a middle distance horse out of England they generally a lot fit other than our horses and you sort of buy a bit of that residual fitness as well. That's really interesting so obviously I'm very well aware of the European training methods and I always thought that we're quite steady and then in America they like to go speed they like hard what what's the blend in Australia what do you look at the appeal track you know those you know particularly England is blessed with those phenomenal training private train center like momentum and Kingsclare and and you got lamb lamb born right back its place at a new market of course I think the appeal is really good. I think the appeal being able to condition a horse for two three years going up a hill every day you you underestimate how much fit your horses are compared to us that are working on a flat surface on a flat surface around two bends you know so and also sound because when you were a horse upper of giving service like a like a wood cheap up a straight up a hill there are they fit her in the sound. Tell me about then buying horse on spec and from your astute thorough resins what you do and I hear that the ability to get involved in horse in Australia is so instant you know horses are bought on spec but then they're sold out in matter of days what what is that process really like how's it work for me obviously. Well if you think we we work that there's about nine owners for every yearlings we buy there's about eight to nine owner and we typically buy yearlings from between a hundred thousand to four hundred thousand generally a bandable and with those European imports which generally average about a million dollar landed a million to a million three dollar landed or three dollars there's only 20 to 25 owners per horse so it's impossible to have what it's hard to have 20 people agreeing on one horse at one price one time you know same for the yearling says you want to round up nine people before the horse goes through the ring when you've only decided the day the night before when you receive the vet report whether you're going to buy for it so yes we've got a last database of owners people have been buying horses with us for a long time and I guess this is like every business you beat your reputation and there is an element of risk that we have to be prepared to take and it's like you're backing your judgment and and I've always thought when I started I thought of myself I must get this right because if I don't if the horse is no good I could get stuck with the slow horse so I think buying on spec in a way puts the emphasis on us to getting it right because there's an element of risk likewise Mr. Monaco we struggled to sell him for a long time but he came good instead of winning races and that's when the shares were good. So you're sort of you're holding to risk and but it's a risky business. And you said when you when you started and you obviously decided to set up here your background is in France where you're from but you've had so much experience everywhere. What was it that made you want to start up your business here of all places in the law? Well I suppose it's the enthusiasm. I like Australian people. I think the Australian people are very open-minded, friendly, outgoing. I felt there was a lot of opportunities. I was lucky. I met some very nice people when I started here. Them Sarah's, the Hays's. But it's I thought there was a a buoyant racing industry with maybe knowledge, much skill and horsemanship as there is in Europe and maybe that was a gap that could feel. But I just living in Sydney is wonderful and we live we live kilometer from the beach and a kilometer from the race course. One more do you want? Yeah I say it wasn't a hard sell to your family. That horsemanship angle I've heard that a couple of times. So what have you kind of explored what routes have you tried to kind of emphasize that in your business? Well I think it's through the management of our horses. So a big part of this is buying the right horses but it's also managing them thoroughly and where horses for us are not a commodity. It's not just buying and churning and burning. Some big stables have got that sort of you just mass buying and then just throwing training them for one specific to your race and then there's a high attrition. Now we're trying to we had a feeling who won yesterday by four lengths and she's three and a half at a first start at three and a half. We always knew shed talent and ability but she had a couple of injuries and if we weren't as patient and as thorough in the way we manage her food injuries she would have been wasted but now she's potentially a very good feeling. And you've mentioned to me just before we started recording about so your training centre and you're wanting to educate your clients as opposed about horsemanship and terminology and all of the kind of difficult language that you can come around when you are new and entry level and to race thing. Is that something that you think is important for your clients as they start to maybe understand why you need to protect horses and why you need to be patient with them too? Yeah it's very important because also we've got a lot of client and and a lot of people to reach out to and I think if you have a real vibrant website with a lot of information people can go and access this information and then they it's also a marketing at a branding exercise for us to have that information available but it's also I work in the industry because I love horses and because I'm passionate about it not because it's just a aware commodity and a way to clip a ticket ticket so and I want that passion and expertise to shine through a learning centre and I want people to understand that why they're getting involved in horses and it's not just a ticket to the lottery it's a big more than them there's an animal behind it you know and we having grown up with horses I'm very careful and I treat we have a saying and you know office that we treat horses like elite athletes and clients like VIPs and we try to marry it too. Yeah and the VIPs they obviously they love the racing that's the theatre that's the drama but the the feedback you get from them about how much more is more about the just about the theatre about the punting you mentioned to me the betting that's that's great but there's another led to it that I suppose they're always discovering and they want to come back and the retention is probably really important to keep them coming back and like how do you do that that's your first decision. Absolutely so we there's three of us in the in the office and we once a week we would take clients to see their horses and we've got a lot of horses with Kirin my racing and what's that experience like? Yeah it's a point of view. We've got we've got a lot of time for that the whole team because it's such a big stable it's not it's not just a Kirin it's his whole team and I like the way it's what it's one big stable is divided in seven smaller entities which are very manageable you know which are very human size. So for example once a week we might take a non-every week to go and see their horses to bomb at Vom Vom Farm and take their volunteer we we think it should be an experience which we think it should be an experience it's about horses but people it isn't it's about punting as well it's about the three the winning of course but we want people to have an enjoyable experience in the industry feel that they haven't blown money away because it doesn't always come off as you know but at the end of the day we're very very selective of what we buy and we've had more good decision than bad decision and that's why our clients keep coming. And for me yourself you obviously there's a 24 hour a day seven day a week business every part of I always feel a buzz for agents every part of the year there's something a little bit different you're trying to sort of channel you know our summertime which we're coming into in Europe is also a busy time for you you like to go to Europe and try and get involved over there and and make that connection very very clear between Australia and Europe. Absolutely so the first of which as you say the first half of the first four months of the year is yearling season then we buy mayors and we advise clients on meetings and everything and then come June and a general organizer tour after all ask her for a week and I take people to Shanty to Normandy visit all the stub farm and it's a bit of a it's a bit of a luxury tool where we stay at wonderful hotels in Dove, Shanty and and it's about food and and we take them to Paris and to the opera and things are a dinner on a barge and the idea is also connect people you know show them a part of the world that I know very well and give them a bit more information about the racing world the racing outside of the outside of Australia and it's about just building connections and and creating a relationship with people which is it's a lot of fun we've been doing it a long time it's a lot of fun. And the partnership I see now and now more than ever you know Americans coming to Australia to Dubai horses and you know French Europeans I know big owner in England Phil Cunningham bought into a very expensive horse around the other day and around Wic there are more reasons to believe now than ever to come and get involved with horses here or from the other side of the world. Do you think you know the marketing that's been done the the prize money there is the appreciation of Australia that you found 20 years ago it's just really becoming very very evident now. Yes I think so definitely it's probably something that we don't do enough of to know trying because we've got so many owners here but we have a handful of European owners and we probably should try and target more but exactly that you know they're you're absolutely right the prize money for them to earn prize money is a new experience but sometimes when they you win a good race here it can pay off for the horse you know so yeah we've got to be more proactive in sourcing owners out of Europe or America. You're taking our horses you take our ears off. But prize money and you know it's a wonderful destination and when people come to if you see a video of on every day here there was 50,000 people seeing sweet Caroline it was electric it was phenomenal that's when I realized this is why I'm here it's it's it's was like nowhere else in the world and and I think people celebrate sport here you know it's a it's a really sporting country and racing is one of them and we see a lot of that in the TV we can see that a lot of things that we can't see the breeding the fused yass amongst us we can't see what it's like in the studs and as much what do you think of the biggest differences that Australia does sort of breeding wise or the way that they sort of you know maybe rear horses maybe just slightly differently to what we do in Europe maybe France and Ireland or in terms of rearing where we bless with the climate horses grew up outside 24/7 for you know until on unless they go for a yearling prep they they're born outside and they stay outside yeah until it's time to come they have a bit of spend a bit of time in boxes during the winning prep they have it you know and then and during the yearling prep but you know there's none of those business of coming in at night for three months of the year so horses are probably early in that it's where they got more bone as well they got a bit more more substance than they are generally about probably 10 50% heavier than European horse maybe sometimes too heavy but say but yeah I think that's a big part of it being able to breed horses outside that's probably the big difference and finally obviously mr monoco is been drawn wide but will hopefully he'll be able to overcome that on Saturday the Sydney Cup your hopes and aspirations not not just now that so very early in his career is he a Melbourne Cup type down the road potentially it could be a Melbourne Cup type I'm not yes hopefully hopefully hopefully look he's had six stars here for pre-wins and he won two and a bounce lately and he was very impressive in the manion cup when he sat three wide and and stay one yeah let's hope interestingly even though he drew wide the the his holds didn't blow so I think there is still a belief that he should run really well despite this get we've got not a lot of weight and we've got a great jockey on board Jamie Melion who's written multiple group winners for us in the past so let's hope Yeah, let's hope if Saturday's noise day maybe it's a blessing for. And don't imagine you'll be heading back to Tattasels to go shopping again. Looking at the list of horses, I mean you can't stop but see French Irish and British bread. So I think that means that the market continues to be hungry for these types of horses. Yeah, definitely. Part of the reason, one of the things that we don't. I think the reason we can't produce stares like you do in Europe is because where we have access to this bloodline. It's like a lot of, you know, dali and cool more bread-staying horses over many years and they haven't succeed as well as they did in Europe. But it's like two things is one, well the program is 70% of our races are below a mile. We don't have the centering centers and we also don't have the programs that we don't have a race for two year olds over a mile where you could, you know, very few. So, so people here, the traditional way to train stares, teach them to spring first then if you can't spring the stretch them at a distance but it's the wrong way to do it. So whereas in Europe I think a horse is trying to stay from the one. If he's patey green, if he's going to be a stayer, well then he's trying to stay. It doesn't train, it doesn't start first up over 1400 meters which is the case here, you know. So you'd see a horse having his first out of a 2000 meters first up on in Europe and there will be super feet to run first up. We're here because of our training center and the program and the way it is. Our tries, we don't have trials built 1200 meters above 1200 meters. So it is, it's more challenging to get a whole staying horse very feet here. And we still, our Darby is still so much prominence and that's what you want to ultimately when I don't know if it really has the same impact as Australian Darby. It's a wonderful race to watch I thought on the weekend but does it have as much sort of appeal for a future staleon? Not to risk. No. I throw a curveball at you. We did a study recently about comparing the stats of the French Darry, the Irish Darry and the English Darry and since the change of distance to the French Darry in 2005, the French Darry in terms of staleon, the French Darry completely out and forms the Irish and the English Darry. Since it's been shortened. Not surprised because all the English Darry losses are now jumped staleons. Yeah. And a bit to start. Yeah. It's too early, it's too far too soon too early whereas the French Darry is producing, since 2005, there's the French Darry and the staleons that have come out of the French Darry have produced 150 more stakes winners than the English and the Irish Darry. Yeah. And so that's the kind of horse potentially a French Darry when Othay was to shuttle here. That's the kind of staleon that you would be. Here on New Zealand probably have a lot more appeal than an Irish Darry or an English Darry. Unless there's a free course that could win us a 2-year-old and a 14-holt meters like there. But the 2-year-old win has to be there otherwise it's going to be tough to mock at them here in this country. Yeah, it's fascinating. Well, thank you for your time. The best of luck on Saturday will be cheering for you and we look good seeing you in Europe and the summer. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks to Louis Lemontier there, ahead of a very exciting weekend for him and his partners for the best of luck to Mr Monaco and a shout out to his brilliant website, stupebloodstock.com. The Learning Centre in particular will be really of note to those wanting to gain more knowledge when it comes to the industry. They've got over a dozen videos with some of racing's most respected figures going behind the scenes of training techniques and training operations, race courses. They really get under the skin of some of the language that we use and it would really help sort of understand the world of racing in Australia but also a very interesting lesson in patience with Rafe Beckett which I think could be of note for those that are trying to understand the training techniques of one of the best trainers in the world. So agree in sight there to what you can really learn and understand through a lot of respect to professionals. And from one professional to the other, I had the opportunity to go to Hawke's Free to catch up with an old friend of mine, Jack Pilkington who has got a huge amount of experience from all over the world. He's a natural and extremely talented horseman. He's set up training a few years ago now with only one horse and he's built up a dozen now in his care and he is able to really reflect at this point on what it's been like to set up training in Australia, going to the sales and buying horses and the ways he's gone about securing owners. So a great opportunity for me to catch up with him and hear about his perspective. Can you take me through the steps that you took to get to Australia and why you ended up settling here of all places that you could have chosen? Yeah well I got bundled into a boat with a bunch of convicts like myself. No, I suppose Australia is attractive for a lot of young people and you're generally. You hear about people getting well paid and having a good lifestyle and you watch home and away and things you think, that's the life for me. If I can go and work with horses and make a good living out there, I wouldn't mind doing that for a short stint which is obviously the plan. So I came out for one year, the first time around, worked for some good trainers, did Chris Waller first, six months there, did a stint with David Hayes, got to work at Morphetville in South Australia and then he's based in Urua and then in Flemington and of course David's name is Hong Kong and that is now his son Ben Will and JD. Ben's been a good friend of mine for a long time and actually spent some time at Charlie Hildesons with us, so came good friends with him there. So obviously I had to go and work for them and then I did a short stint with Kiran Mark Colefield as well and had a fantastic time, saw what Australian racing is all about and it's fun, the price money is good, the racing quality is good and generally you make a pretty good living of it and then I carried on around the world a bit because I wanted to learn from as many places as I could. So I went on to South Africa and States, Canada, Dubai, France, Japan as I know there's nine countries in total, didn't include New York. Got England in that back to your real world. I think I lived in nine countries in the way six years. Just working for whoever I really wanted to work for wherever it was even when I went to Santa Anita I was like it'll be character building if I turned up there with no job and I go knock on doors. But once I got on one horse and people started to notice you there and I ended up riding quite a bit for Richard Mandela which was so cool. But after I'd done it, I just ticked her around the world and learnt what all the different jurisdictions have to offer. I actually thought Australia was probably the most justifiable place to start. It was hard to justify setting up in the UK around. Talked to me a bit more about that because I know what it is like setting up in England and how hard it can be but is it more accessible when you're small trying to start with a couple of horses or for your case one because you can just rent a box as opposed to having to take on a whole stable. So yeah training the tracks makes it much more accessible for a start. You don't need a huge amount of backing, you don't need a whole stable but it's attached to whether they be communal gallops like lamb or a new market or the car or you have your own. You see that's all huge expense and you need to be filling a whole yard quite quickly and you need a lot of investment which is when the prize money is not fantastic and the horses you're trying to buy, you know the chances of you ending up in a top level race aren't particularly high. It's very difficult to start up. There's Australia, loves an underdog, loves the youth in the game, everybody's got a bit more to spend. I was saying to you just before the lowest figure I've seen is one in 106 Australians owns a race horse in some way or another and that's a lot of people, a lot of diversity, they're not all extremely wealthy, they just want to all get involved and have some fun and the accessibility to the top level horses is much greater. And so that's like, I couldn't really justify setting up in the UK or Ireland but I could certainly justify it here. And the same principles wherever you go in terms of when you set up as a trainer even though the accessibility is there, you've got to still go out and buy a horse and you've got to find the owners. What is it the process like going into the sales as a new trainer, trying to buy a horse and then trying to get those syndicates to believe and back. you what's that been like? - EBSM flows. You need some success that usually helps. Get a big winner and next thing, a whole bunch of people send you an email and say you got shares and anything else. But sometimes, you know, the economy's up and down and sometimes I hear nothing for a long time and you think, you know, I hope to God this horse that I've still got 60% of doesn't go and get a bloody injury in this six months that I haven't sold a single sharing 'cause then I'm good to struggle to sell it after that. But I guess you just got to keep backing yourself in and magic millions are really good to me at the start. They understand that this is how young people start. They need help. They gave me a line of credit to purchase my first horse, took me a while to sell down the shares. But why not? - How does that work? What you say credit? Do they give you a period of time? Is that like for any trainer? - Yeah, so well, I can't speak for everyone else. But I went either the minute I spoke to them. I pitched to them a bit, yeah. I said, like I'd love to spend, you know, if I could get a line of credit to 120,000 I would really think a horse is worth it, but I'm not looking to spend all of that at all. But just so it's there, just in case, you know, in something I really believe in. And, you know, and I got some people that want to buy shares straight away. And so I can send you that money soon as that comes through and we'll keep it going, you know, taking over going forward. And, yeah, they extended me like I'd seen. You know, that was fantastic. It was a big help to me. Did go to 80,000 for the first horse. And, but it was a big success in the end. I managed to sell the shares while it took me about eight months, to be honest, or maybe even nine. But got the last shares over the line and kept a little bit for myself because I really believed in the horse. I thought he was pretty outstanding. And so it was very lucky with him. He did manage. He did five runs as a two year old, back any two year old. This is Thomas, who's real name is Alabama State, but he's by a stallion called Alabama Express and he's a big tank, so Thomas the Tank Engine and all my horses are nicknamed. So Thomas is like a member of the family. He's like, he's more of a brother to me. He's not even like my pet or my kid. He's like spent that much time with him early because I only have one horse. So I'd spend like five hours a day with this horse. You ride him, you break him. Everything, I actually, I wasn't set up with a stable when I wanted to get a broken in. So I did send him to Dan Robinson here as far as I'm concerned. It's the best horseman I've ever seen, let alone being lucky enough to work with. He's unbelievable. If I didn't, your listeners want some fantastic horsemanship content, they should look up a DPR horsemanship. He's the son of English jockey who was Robinson. Yes, blue, so yeah. And so he's breaking in training, but mainly breaking in. And also helping with problem horses and things for a lot of the big stables over here. So he broke Thomas in. And then I managed to, I went and rode a few of the tracks, the provincial tracks couldn't get permission to train at a metropolitan track. So I went and rode a few of the provincial tracks to see how they were. Just offering my time to some of the other trainers and settled on Hawksbury. Location was good, like the facilities. And then I managed to ask somebody could they just rent me one stable and just started with him. I bought another horse cheaply pretty much to be his mate. That year as well that I sold on. But with Thomas, that was my main thing from the start of the one horse. And he had five runs as a two year old, which is for a big horse that was going to be better at three is he's been very saying, and he won the fifth one. And then came out and won his first start as a three year old. He's now four, he's won 289,000 in prize money and we'll have like loads more fun with him in the future. He's a good horse. - Tame me back to when you bought him at the sales, 'cause you've gone to magic millions, you've you pitch, you've managed to get the credit. You say that you want to spend a certain amount, but you're probably quite principled on the fact that you're a horseman yourself. You like to go after the horse, not necessarily the big bucks, but it's probably principles that you believed in. What was it that was about him that kind of ticked those books? - Yeah, well, one of the guys has something for a good value. Somebody suggested magic millions book two. And in my mind, the sales companies can't get everything right for one and two, there's always, I suppose a little bit of politics involved. So the best horses in book two are always going to be better than some of the horses in book one, but they're deciding who goes in what book a long way out. But then I think you may also get some horses in book one that are in a bigger draft and with a smaller draft or smaller farm, they may have been pitched to, they would be better off in book two. And I would just, I just go through the whole book. The thing is, if they're in book two, they're probably lacking in pedigree or they're lacking in physicality, but some of them aren't, some of them have a good cross section. And you might have 400 horses in the book. So I'll go through the book, do it go through all their pages and mark everything down, but then I'll put that away and I go, and I want to see every horse in that book. Now, if you've got a pool of 400 horses and you end up with a list of seven or eight, you'd be happy to go home with any one of them. Jamie Pigard was there at the time. I was talking to him about it and I was like, tough getting around four horses, a 400 horses and two and a half days, let alone getting background to do second and third looks. So he gave me a hand as well. I smashed through most of them. And once I had all my yeses, I had about six to 70 yeses, and then we narrowed them down with second looks to probably 25, narrowed down again. What can we actually sell out of these and then went back with the last look and we ended up with I think eight or something, a seven or eight, eight or 400. And we put a price down for each one, what would we go to? First one comes with a ring, start bidding, stop as soon as you get to your price. We had a favourite cult, my favourite filly, and the favourite filly went for too much and the favourite cult was Alabama State. And we managed to get him and we were sitting there, banging the table, knock it down, knock it down, knock it down. So I think we put about a hundred on him or something, maybe 90, but he was getting up close to it and we were like, come on, please knock it down to us. So anyway, we got him and that's been quite a successful sort of partnership now with Jamie. He was there last year as well and we bought another horse that's turned out to be pretty good and Jamie loved Alabama State as well. He straight away said, don't send me a bill for that. I'm having five percent. Quite a lot because we were friends and it was my first horse, but also we were both locked in, not him. He was quite big. - Physically, what was it about him and are there physical traits that you need to see in a horse that you probably moved on to? Am I dreaming and the others? - Yeah, I suppose so, so when I'm going round them all, I like certain things. I like a bit of size. I'll forgive certain correctness things, especially if I've seen it through, because when you're looking again, when you're looking at a big pool of horses, you can see certain traits like, I know a lot of the dargentos are turned out. I imagine if I looked at dargento now, he'd probably be the same way. And so I'll forgive things like that a bit. I want to see them well balanced. I'm keen on how they turn. If they turn and they don't really step through well under themselves with their hind legs, and they sort of pivot around on them, I don't particularly like that. She doesn't show much strength. I like the movement to be loose and free and easy, just everything to work well together mechanically. And I want them to have a good temperament because that is half the battle. - And you know a lot of this, obviously, from all your work with the likes of Chris Wollett, what can work well training them from a trainer's eye? - I think one thing I've learned by going out and buying the horses over the last few years is probably articulating certain traits. But when you work for Richard Mandela, Chris Wollett, Charlie Hills, Todd Pledgeyer, David Hayes, Justin Snath, Kearamar, Northern Farm, all of them, Nikola Clemon, loads of good trainers, and you are looking at fantastic horses every day, well bred, and so I think for a long time, I just trained naturally towards certain traits, and now I can probably articulate more which movements I do like, which movements I don't like, how they put their feet down, where they land, the angles of their hips and shoulders, all that kind of thing. I know now, how to say what I was looking for, but I was noticing it without knowing how to articulate it when I first started buying the horses myself because I was used to looking at the horses that had all the similar traits. And you can, equally, you can look at one and know that one's, you know, looks like sprinter or one looks like a stayer. And, you know, and something's got the bones of a nice horse here, but it needs to mature more. So I think, yeah, if you spend enough time looking at all those horses like that, you're, you're, I train them naturally. And, but certainly spending time around more bloodsock agents and going out and buying the horses and things, I suppose I know exactly how to pinpoint those things a bit more. Yeah, it's very, wonderful when you see all those things line up, but then normally the, they become the expensive one. What can you sort of forgive a horse for? What do you feel like you can eat out of a horse that others might not be able to? I think if you go to, so, okay, so Magic Millions Book One is massive, millions being, but millions by name, millions by nature. Most of the big buyers leave after book one. And so you go to book two and you think, all right, there are going to be some horses in here that they've got it wrong. They should have been book one horses. And if I look through and you've got to work, if you're aiming for a book that's going to be cheaper generally, you have to work harder. Because most of the ones in book one will sell themselves. They're easy, it's all those obvious ones that cost a fortune. They're obvious. Everyone knows that they're going to go for a fortune. They're impeccably bred. They're move fantastic. They're well put together and correct. But you're not going to be able to buy them. So you're looking for the ones that they've, that they've got it wrong on, either they've matured more since they've done the book or they might have been from a smaller farm and maybe in a bigger farm, they might have snuck into book one. They're probably those, those borderline horses. And so after I've looked at them all and been happy with them physically, I've, I've, I've decide what I like about them. And then I open my book and I'm hoping to go, if I really like this horse, I'm really hoping that I've got the page here that I've highlighted so much and written so much that I like about it and that I can sell. Because the person you're selling to usually doesn't know so much about the physicality of the horse. And you want to, but there is going to be a cross section. It's not a huge amount of them. Could be, could be seven or eight. Could be 15 in the whole 400. But if you don't look at the whole 400, your pool of horses is a smaller less chance you're going to find those horses. So I don't actually forgive too much. But it's because I'm looking at a lot of horse. And you hope someone just might miss it. It's kind of more something sort of nearly fallen through the net as opposed to. And most of the big buyers are gone. Yeah. You know, if some of those horses that I'm buying in book two, if they had have just made it into book one, they might have sold for a lot more money. Tell me about the stallions. Obviously, you know, a lot of, we know a lot about the European stallions that head over to Australia and do well. You know, even saw today church will do well. We saw Saxon more in the weekend. We've got a really big cross section of stallions in Australia anyway that's standing. And they just denounced De La Quire as coming this year. De La Quire. We've got De Giverlacquois coming to what are your opinions on the stallions in this country and how easy is it to get accessibility to those ones that are shuttling over? How do they how do they fare in your mind? Are they in a different level? No, I've always got an eye on them because the the probably the Australians don't breed so much for staying races. I mean, there'll be a mile and a quarter race and they'll or even a mile and one and they'll say that's the staying race on the day. They don't say there's no middle distance here. It's sprint, middle distance to them really is probably seven very longs to a mile and then they can be on the mile as a staying race. But the prize money is the same for this for the staying races. So there's a gap in a way that you go and go on to it? Which is I think why Chris Waller did so well to begin with because he was doing so well with a lot of stares and it's why obviously people buy horses from Europe to bring down here. But if you have a horse who can genuinely stay and you can maybe get a baby conditioning into it as a two-year-old and then get out to those trips as a three-year-old, they can punch at a much higher sort of grade of race than the same quality of horse would be able to do as a sprinter in this country because the once you get beyond certain distances, the competition, themes out completely. And then once they become four-year-olds and they're running against the open it, then they have to take on European horses and things like this. So it can get more if you might win a derby with a horse here, but then they turn four and they've got to run against these older horses and turns out actually the ones from Europe or better stares anyway even though they weren't group one horses there. You know some of them some of them can be here. So but I do keep an eye on one of the horses I was bidding on at last year's Magic Millions book 2 was a really nice thing Mark's Basilica. And so I do keep an eye on what's what's available, what's coming out. The other thing I find I do end up having to do quite a lot is buy horses, buy new stallions. Alabaam Estate was the fresh crop of Alabaam Express and to be honest I knew nothing about Alabaam Express at the time. I did not have that highlighted but I liked he was out of the street crime here and I really liked him physically and it was a good often family they'd done fairly well but Alabaam Express was not the attraction correct me at that time. Turns out it's a bloody good stallion. I didn't know that. Taskort I bought I've got a three in the stable I have one running today who was a bit disappointing which he made a fantastic debut a couple of weeks ago. She's out of a half sister to your son who's a stallion and a group one winner. At the time I bought her he was standing for I think 11 and had his first two year olds on the track so she was the second crop few weeks later it is first group one winner with that first crop of two year olds and now and I think now he stands for 55. Peltzer bought one out of his first crop like so I find I have to go for the younger stallions because you can get them at a price before they're proven. Doesn't sound too dissimilar to what you do if you were starting up in England but what we have in the year at young trainers when you trainers probably go off that off that after that sprinting division because it's cheaper but the sprinters I get the opinion here are the crammed lacram but it sounds like you're going after the maybe the middle distance staying route here because it's isn't less competitive or do you prefer that? I'm not going after anything in particular. I don't like narrowing things down by this stallion or that stallion because I want to see every horse because at the end of the day if I okay so option one work your ass off and look at every horse in the book and get round you know I this might be 400 and I can't do 450 in two and a half days and I say two and a half days because I'm turning up as the book two horses are getting off the trucks saying please can I see your draft tonight because I don't have enough time to get round all of them in the next two days and then the you know the day of the the sale starting I'm still trying get round a few more just not enough time and so but if I go with option one and look at them all I have a large pool of horses to narrow down and then have the top 5% to buy from in my opinion or option two I make a short list and that's usually based on their pedigrees and things like that well if their pedigrees are great and they're in book two they've probably got wonky legs and you know and or I might put some on the short list because their video is good or something like that so you're just really doing yourself out of you you haven't even seen most of them and so you can't I find you can't restrict yourself at all if you're trying to play in that market like I say if you you can if you're going in book one you want a certain kind of horse you can make yourself a short list but most of those horses going to pick themselves and they're going to be very expensive but if you're trying to play into a pool of horses that are going to be cheaper because they're in book two and you're trying to find the diamond and the raffle or something like the ingus htba sale it's at the end of the year I bought one out of there for 15 grand a couple of years ago and I hadn't even planned to really go in there to buy a horse but let's just start looking through a whole load of them because I went to meet somebody there and then this thing just really kind of spoke to me and I was like what kind of sale is it is it so it'd be end of the year it wouldn't be like I mean that was so English they're big sales or the the Easter sale classic sale premier sale and then the htba can be a little bit of a with a being rude about it but it can be a bit of consolidation sale at the end of the year. Oh sin training and things like that. No no it's a yearling sale it is a yearling sale but it's at the the end of the year and some people might have had a horse that was in another book and it got withdrawn for one reason or another or some of the lower quality stuff can go there. And so sometimes you can try and look for diamonds and the rough a bit. But certainly I find that Magic Millions Book 2 has been a really good sale for me. I bought five horses out of there, one the first year, two the next year, two the next year. The first year, the one I got was Alabama State. The next year I got a Tassort out of a half sister to group one winner that was third on debut for 50,000. And then the third year I bought a horse who just won on debut two weeks ago and ran and was my first group one runner the other day for 35,000. So those principles that you began with you are very set with them. Well they worked once, so once they're stick. Exactly, you're keeping them rolling and you feel like that's that thing. Seeing that system that you want, when you obviously the dream is to have more horses, more staff, more owners, keeping those principles at the heart of it as long as you can and imagine. As much as I can, certainly for the ones I buy myself. But then you know, if other people want to send you a horse, you know, I mean, you might, yeah, horses will turn up and I think, well, I wouldn't have bought that because it's very close in the Hawks or, you know, this and that, you know, I'm going to struggle to build the strength up and we're going to do this kind of training to make it stronger there and what not. That's the art of training, man. It is, but then also, you know, I mean, if a horse is wonky legs and it gets an injury, yeah, it's not because you weren't doing what you're doing, right? If I had wonky legs, I would have just chatted your chances when you were going up, but somebody else bought it, I didn't buy anything. But the dream is, again, the day you're going to do the best you can with what you've got, I would love to be able to just stuck a stable with everything I buy myself. Which is what a lot of the trainers do here. But then they can sell them quickly. Of Chris Biza Horse, you know, for Chris Watterbiza Horse for a half a million and puts a video up on line and says, "We've just bought this thing. We love it because of this." It's people have called him. He hasn't even gone searching for buyers. He's probably sold the thing out 24 or 48 hours later. I can't do that. They don't know who I am. So people are starting to hear my name a little more and they were exposed because I'm having a bit of success. But my horses don't sell themselves, whereas the big stables usually do. So I tend to need some winner if that advertised me. But that's what, and we were saying this earlier, but that's what's the dream you feel like that could be achieved. Whereas in England, you become, you know, a train of use start having a few successes. But the dream is really to have the big owner breeders sending you the horses because the owner breeders have the big pool of the best quality that, as we discussed before, we started recording. Don't go through the sail ring where it's here. You want to get to the point where you're buying more horses at a big price at that high level as opposed to being sent them because they're all there to be sold. And because you can buy them. Because everyone's, you know, going to the sales at Tats or wherever. And there's plenty of big money. Lots going through the ring. And, you know, everyone's fighting over them and people can forget that they're fighting over 30% of the pie of the elite level horses because the other 70% are at home. They're not for sale. They never were. Is that something that put you off the idea of, I know, there's lots of other. It can do slightly, yeah, because I want to race at a certain level, you know, and I want to hold myself to a certain standard and I want to be able to stuck my stable with the quality of horses. But again, it's another thing that made it, you know, much less justifiable to train over there and much more justifiable to train here because it's the complete opposite, 70% of the horses at the elite level were sold at public auction and the other 30% were the owner breeders. And then there's only so many big owner breeders to go around in Europe as well, you know. So those trainers that have them supporting their stable, you know, fantastic for them. But, unless I was going to get that kind of backing myself, I know I'm fighting for scraps, hoping that I win the lottery with something that I find that I didn't have to spend a fortune on that somebody probably shouldn't have sold but didn't. You're hoping. You're hoping. Whereas you can go in here with a bit more confidence and back yourself in and you say, all right, I've got to, I'll get my chance in Australia. If I don't screw it up, you know, I can make it. You've, as you mentioned, you've gone all over the world. You've had experience, I think, and I love telling everyone I know when I talk about you that you're the one person I know that's had experienced in every continent. What bar untargeted can I? Yeah, well, every part of the world that has been recognized South America. South America. So you've let yourself down there. But yeah, what's the world? I'll do a frankly tutorial. Yeah, you'll retire there. What's the one best piece of advice you probably receive from anywhere all over the world that sort of help to especially when things are being tough because it isn't easy setting up. And that's probably what people don't like to talk about but actually does help you when you're trying to push through. I don't know if you can have one best piece of advice. Well, the, I was saying to you earlier, I kept a little folder on my travels and I wrote utopia on it and I added all the things I like to learn from each place and just trying to absorb it all. And you do learn lots of things from lots of different people. Like, if for example, the Australian trainers I've worked for are all different people. Kiran Marr, I don't know if he really gave me advice. You just watch him. He's a fantastic horseman. His horses will come out. He's a bit like Justin Stake. They've come out in the morning and he might have a written down plan of what they're meant to be doing. But then he would just cast his eye over them as they actually know. Do that instead. Do this instead. And I do find I make things up as I go a little bit just off the field of the horse. David Hayes said, don't get into bed with anyone that you're not prepared to have a drink with. You know, on them, as you clients or business partners, Mark Newton said to me, it's not just about what you do. It's about what you seem to be doing, which is, I didn't realize at the time that it just seems to stick with a lot of, you know, how you how you present everything is very important because you can bust your ass all you like. There's no point in being angry at the world if, you know, what you seem to be doing isn't attracting more clients to the to the stable just because your horsemanship is up to a certain standard. And then Chris Waller, who's probably the most sort of metric of the whole lot, said to value each benchmark point at $10,000, which I try to do. And I think I have done relatively well so far. And it top just that one line taught me a lot about the Australian sort of hand gapping system, especially if you want to be operating at the level I do all the time. So I pretty much have ran 80% of my horses at metropolitan level, 20% of provincial and haven't run a horse in the country yet. But that's kind of the standard I try and keep myself at. I mean, in my mind, if I've got one sixtieth of the size of Chris Waller's stable, I want one sixtieth of his success or better because I can have a more hands-on role. And that might seem like, oh, you know, surely you can't expect that. But I do expect to love myself. You said this to me on Saturday when you had your first 100-grit one. I said, your horse is well named on my dreaming. And I said, well, you're not not anymore. It's happening. You said that you expect this of yourself not because you're arrogant, but that's because you expect when you start it up. And I'm so used to working at that level, having worked for all of those people that, you know, I've been working around that level for so long. Even if I'm training them, I think it would feel like a bit of a step down if I can't operate at the same level in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the feet to feel bright in the spirit here. So gotta keep it rolling now, yeah. It's keeping them momentum going. It's one thing trying to get the success. And then you gotta keep working hard to, you can't sit in your rest on your laurels. Yeah. Well, you'll probably want the hardest people I know working in this industry. So we can say the best of luck to you, Jack. I'm going to be sharing your insights into the Aussie way. Thank you very much. With thanks to Jack Antelui, one insight that provides of being a European and Australia and jumping into this industry and making this your life and why it can offer so much. And the difference is it can be to setting up here and in Australia, then it is in the UK, especially as a trainer and the opportunities excitement. And that's what I gather from from both of the and the appetite that exists here from those that are really excited and boyed by this industry. And plenty of players want to become owners, they want to support the young, they want to support the dream and the story lines that exist here. So the best of a lot to Louis and of course to Jack as they continue on their career. And I will be trying to get a few more stories while I'm here. It's a wonderful industry. There is so much to offer. And there's plenty to uncover and for the whole of the racing community to learn. I hope you've enjoyed it. It's always great to get your feedback. So please send me a message on Instagram, leave a comment or a review on Spotify or iTunes and always having a look to see how the podcast is being received. Make sure to subscribe and send to a friend. And I will be back very soon.