Episode 306: Decay and Play: Towards a living cemetery with architect & PhD graduate, Isabel Lasala

[Music] We'll listen to the architectural design brought to you in association with the architecture design network. You can catch up with news, projects interviews and much more at architectureandesign.com.au where you can also subscribe to our newsletters and magazine. Welcome to Talking Architecture and Design, the podcast where we explore the ideas, projects and people shaping our built-in environment. I'm your host, Brankham Lodic and today we're diving into a thought-provoking topic that challenges how we design and experience public spaces. The transformation of symmetries from quite often forgotten places into vibrant living parts of our cities. My guest today is Isabel LaSalla, architect landscape architect, director of LaSalla and LaSalla Design Studio and recent PhD graduate whose research explores decay, play, memory and urban evolution in the sacred yet underutilized spaces. So Isabel LaSalla, welcome to the show. Hey Brankham, thanks for having me. No, you're more than welcome and I appreciate the early start. Okay, so your PhD research decay and play towards a living symmetry, kind of sounds almost totology, doesn't it? Stems from a simple but powerful observation. Symmetries are public spaces that many of us do really visit. So what initially drew you to this topic? It's a somewhat say it's a little bit macabre but what drew you to this topic as an architect and landscape architect and how has your personal or professional journey shaped your perspective on these sites? So this research is the conclusion of a very long time observation. I think that symmetries are very important and very meaningful places after someone passes away. It's a place where you have to say your final goodbye and then you have to physically let go. But with time, I found out that symmetries lose importance as our memories evolved toward like relationships or places that we established with other places that may not necessarily need to be where the physical remains are, like either bones or ashes. So, and I think this is where the challenge lies, how to reinforce a place that is extremely meaningful and extremely important but also lose importance with time and my main concern is to try to avoid letting them die as we stop visiting. It's an interesting choice of words. It's funny what you say, not funny but it's very point of what you say because many urban symmetries face a lot of issues and we've been having this here in Sydney recently. Issues like perpetual burials with limited space and we're actually opening up a new one. A new symmetry arm in 20, 30, 31, I believe. The clining visitations of families pass on and a sense of disconnection from temporary still life. In your view, what are the biggest design and cultural challenges in reimagining these spaces while also still honoring their role in both memory and in death? So, I think you write the regulation and regulations and attitudes towards symmetry change radically among cultures and religions. Here in Victoria, the same as in Sydney, what you mentioned, that most symmetries operate in perpetuity, which is that you pay for the right to intern and the remain instrument to be in that symmetry forever. So, this is a way to honor the dead, right? Meaning that the soil where they are is not meant to be sold again. It's not meant to be reused and that could be understood as a way of respect. However, it comes to a point in life what we were discussing before when people who met someone buried in a symmetry also pass away and therefore no one visits that space again. And that's when they become what I call forgotten urban spaces. There is a very few people that are lucky enough to know where their great grandparents are buried, for example. And even less people who live in the same city or in the same place where those, I mean, if family members are buried. So, I think it gets to that point in which you sometimes can't even physically visit because if you don't even know where they are or you are not in the same country or in the same city. So, that's when I think we get to a point in which you, we should start rethinking those spaces. Also as a way to honor the dead, right? Also as a way to honor all there are dead people that are probably not or family members or friends. Your work emphasizes turning, you know, these forgotten places into meaningful environments that engage respectfully with death, memory and urban evolution. You know, space is becoming a premium in most cities, particularly in Australia. So, can you walk us through some of the key design principles or strategies from your research? Perhaps involving elements of play and nature and even adaptive reuse, something I'm particularly interested in. That could make these cemeteries more dare I say, inviting for the living? So, I would say the main step is to detect that space, to find out what's the space that needs to be, or not that needs to be that has been forgotten, let's say, which is specifically a cemetery in perpetuity with cemeteries are declared in perpetuity, I think, after 50 years of the last internment and they are declared in perpetuity when there is just, I mean, when there is no space available and no visitation on that cemetery, they check that by, you can tell in the tombs and graveyards if they have new flowers or not, sometimes people are walking but not visiting, right? And that's the difference. So, after that, I would say the main principles are to evaluate the surroundings, the immediate surroundings that are not that close, so to see what are the ways to communicate and to connect them better with the organ landscape. So, that would be to treat the boundaries, opening them totally or partially depending on what they have around. Not everybody is okay with being around the cemetery, not everybody is okay with living in front of a cemetery and looking at it every day. When people prefer not to look inside and I think that's okay, that's something that I perfectly understand and respect, there is a lot of stigma about cemeteries and kids are scared, people are scared. I mean, that's not an easy thing to do, so you have to be cautious with what happens around. And then I would say the next step is to make the space not restrictive in terms of public space. I think it's fundamental not to over-program or not to over-design spaces that are specifically for one activity, but designing with ambiguity so people can use the spaces as they wish. And that's what allows the appearance of play, not only for children but for play in general. I would say not play with rules or with a specific environment that you have to use in a specific way, but there's something spontaneous, an activity that implies discovery, creativity, fun and leisure in general. I've got to say, you know, that they are also very quiet places. Yes, they are, yeah. I couldn't think of a better place to live next door to actually. Well, it depends what your current situation is, but I'd tell you, if you want quiet, live next door to a cemetery. Yeah, I do. In your exhibition and video installation work, such as a between-playing the KU visualise alternative futures for cemeteries. So in that respect, could you describe one or two specific interventions, rather, or concepts from your thesis that blend architectural aims? and community use, while also at the same time, maintaining the reverence for those in third day. - I would say one thing is to design with vegetation. I would say I'm to consider in closely vegetation ask one of the main drivers for the design. There is something that's happening now that is designing, I mean planting trees, us. So, on this writer, options could be to plant specific small wildflowers that change or like bloom with the seasons that could remind us specific moments. And with vegetation, you can start designing with spatial conditions that could blend that architecture and landscape architecture. I think the materiality is also fundamental. And you can use that to kind of curate decay. For example, you can consider specific materiality and specific orientation to foster the proliferation of moss. For example, if you want a wall to become greener or covered with moss as specific times of the year, probably oriented to the south, so it never has sonic exposure. You could also use some polished stone and oriented probably to the north. So they are going to be always clean and shiny. That's amazing in cemeteries how you sometimes are walking and see shining pieces of stone that are 100 years old and they are still perfect without any care at all. Water is also another important element for that. So cemeteries have potential for like field trading storm water, storm water collection and that could result in landscapes or public spaces that are either wetter or drier, depending on the season and that can kind of trigger specific kind of activity or behavior around it. But I would say it's basically trying to design for those quiet spaces and calm spaces but can also be visited and can also be welcomed. Yeah, and that would also be a way to honor the dead even if you don't know where they are. - Okay. - Who they are, I meant. - Yeah. Attitudes towards death and burial do very widely across cultures. I mean, your background Spanish and you know, in a Spanish culture or Latin American culture there's a different sort of, I guess, relationship to cemeteries and death as there is that may be in a Anglo-Saxon culture. And in places like Australia, we have the added issue of as I mentioned earlier, space, precious growing. I mean, we have our cemetery here. Look what I think is the second largest in the Southern hemisphere, not the largest second largest. And it's smack bang in the middle of the city. So in that respect, how do you navigate the ethical balance then between the innovation, design and cultural sensitivities as I think you touched earlier? And what lessons from let's say international, or even maybe Melbourne context haven't formed your approach? - That's a difficult thing. Like consideration, I think I'm lucky enough that I developed this proposal in academic environment in which research by design and discovery were key. So it's always fundamental to, to understand the variety of visions, right? What is this respectful for a group can be respectful for the other and the opposite. So it's key to being informed, it's key to be cautious, but also to offer opportunities. As, I mean, doing nothing is doing something at the end. So you decide what to do. Again, being open and respectful to different, and different groups, but I think it's leaving this spaces closed, leaving this spaces not visited and abandoned. It's something that, regardless of attitudes towards death, is not beneficial for the environment, right? These are spaces that are, they get quite hot in summer. There are quite impermeable. So the water never penetrates because they're absolutely covered with stone and concrete. And in a situation and environmental situation like we are today, I think that's something that we need to address. So the ways how to address it while respecting, while creating opportunities and what I have, I've been welcoming everyone. I have a, there is a great example. It's not a semi-trip, but it's a tomb that an architect from Paraguay, Solanoveni, test design for his father in the Garden of Herd is Mother's house. And it's a place that is, it's a very simple intervention, but it's quite fascinating. There is a reflection of mirrors that reflect the nature around that reflect people visiting in the same, visiting that tomb infinitely, where that activates the space, where that promotes plays, plays a leisure, but also reverence, you know what I mean? It's, I think there are like key examples that are great in that regard. (upbeat music) If we successfully reimagine centers as dynamic public spaces, which is what, which is what you've broached, perhaps with as you said, greenery and art and recreation and community events, and possibly a very good cafe, that would be the worst thing. Then how could you ripple this out through influence, the order of planning? And sustainability and how, even how cities address issues like green spaces, you know, green space, shorted, as well as social isolation. I mean, if you can, if you can do it in a cemetery, well, you can pretty much do it anywhere, right? So how would you, how would you, how would you take that knowledge and apply it elsewhere is what I'm asking. - So applied somewhere else in the city, in any public space, you mean? - Yeah, yeah. I think that is something that is like a lot easier, I would say, and doable. As cemeteries are quite restricted, because what you see from the ground is nothing, on the ground is nothing towards underneath, right? So I think the treatment of, treatments of boundaries, their relationship with surroundings, the creation of shortcuts, yeah, this, it's basically the perimeter as the border, as the point, the thresholds between the urban life and that specific open space, right? I think that is really fundamental. Sometimes in some spaces that's reduced to a sidewalk and a fence, dividing both. And I think that's where the potential is in treating that boundary, in making spaces more inviting and creating that fluidity between the open space and the cities surrounding it. - And lastly, looking ahead, what does this, here I call it a truly living cemetery? That's the right terminology to use, look like in let's say next 10 or 20 years, because next 10 or 20 years, as we get older, there's that next step, right? - Yeah. - So what does that actually look like and what practical advice would you give architects and landscape designers, policymakers, governments, and even students interested in this intersection of architecture, memory and public life? So I think that living cemetery, in if we talk about a cemetery, 10 or 20 years or not, that much, it's difficult to see that. I think it's an invitation to see time differently and to make space for slowness and where the decay is addressed in a specific way to create a place aesthetic value. It's a space for joy. It's something that I think it's quite important is to think that the lack of visitation is sometimes something that is positive for some in some cases. It's positive for wildlife in general because we interrupt their life less. So I think it's in a way that the thing with Cemetery is that we can try to make him more accessible. We can try to make him more inviting. But if people don't decide not to visit them that much as they would visit any other public space or any other park, that is something that could be successful for that wildlife and vegetation. So I think it's about creating small interventions and see how they evolve in time. If people decide to come more or less or if biodiversity is growing more or less in a specific aspect and then make other interventions again and see how things evolve. I think cultural attitudes towards death are changing radically and quite rapidly. I would say next generation is going to have a different approach to death and cemeteries. I also think that their practices that could also be detrimental for cemeteries as such which I think is something that we need to keep in mind. That idea of scattering the ashes is really bad for the environment for the high levels of faults and the high pH they have and also will eliminate the cemeteries in the future. So I think we need to be careful and act but with our eyes open to change and adapt depending of how things evolve. How is the response of people, how is the response of wildlife, what's the response of vegetation and then keep working on that. I think that's why I told about a living cemetry because it's something that it's not full and closed. It's something that will evolve with time in different ways. So making cemeteries great again. Is that what we're saying in the bill? Yes, kind of. Is it a bit less solid? Thank you very much for sharing your insightful research and visionary ideas on transforming cemeteries into public places. Thank you for having me. It was pleasure to talk to you. No, it was pleasure's all mine. I've got to say your work on Decay and play truly does open up your work to think about the architect's and architect's role in life, death and urban memory. I think that's and you're right. People do avoid the subject. Yeah, so I mean, you know, it's it's good to someone. Someone's actually looking into this. So we're going to say thank you for your time. I've got to say it's one of the more interesting conversations I've had for a while. Thank you. If you'd like to learn more about Isabelle's project or La Sala and La Sala and La Sala design studio go to triplew dot La Sala, the letter Y and La Sala again all one word dot net or just look up La Sala and La Sala on Google and you'll find them. So don't forget to subscribe, rate us, join us next time for more conversations that shape our world and in this case today and beyond as well. I'm Brian Campbell, I think thank you very much to listening to talking architecture and design. Until next time, goodbye.