Episode 3: Lorena Paglia | APAC Sustainability Lead at Microsoft

Hello everyone, welcome to Recharge, Talking New Energy, where we interview the world's leading energy professionals and have conversations about the global energy transition. I am your host, Adam Carabetta, and the goal of this podcast is to educate the audience on how to become part of the energy transition. This podcast is also sponsored by formative search, Asia-Pacific's leading recruitment agency and search firm for renewable energy, legal and technology recruitment. On this episode, we were very fortunate to have Lorraine Paglia join us. Lorraine works as one of the heads of sustainability at Microsoft in Singapore. She first entered this space long before corporates were talking about it, and well before, companies like Microsoft were doing anything around sustainability. So as she opened up with us about the changes she has seen and noticed over this interesting space in the last few years, but also from when she first began her working career. It was a really interesting podcast because it's a little bit different than what I'm typically used to in new energy and renewables, but it's equally massively important. So Lorraine talked to us about what needs to happen from here and out amongst the global community when it comes to sustainable movements. I really enjoyed this very genuine discussion with Lorraine and I hope you do too. Good morning Lorraine, thanks for joining us on our show. Great to have you here. Hi Adam, thanks for having me. I got to say it's a rare pleasure as well to get to a fellow Italian Australian from Earth in Singapore to do the podcast, so it's a real pleasure. Thanks, no, and it's all good. The banter overall our childhood favourites as well before we got started. Yeah, got it out of the way. So Lorraine, for those in the audience that don't know yourself, perhaps you could just start the podcast with a very quick summary of your career who you are and what you're doing at the moment with your current role at Microsoft. Yeah, sure. So I'm obviously from Perth, Australia as you just announced. My parents are from Rome and I always think that's a really good differentiator because you would understand when you do grow up in one culture but you have a different culture at home, it does change and shape the way that you engage in the way you interact to a world and also hate unsancultures from another point of view. For sure. But in terms of my career, I guess it's been pretty diverse. I'd say I've got one of those CVs that are either really loved or not sure what to do with it because I started as a paralegal in energy and race like it's a paralegal legal assistant that then evolved into becoming business development, that then evolved into management consulting career which then launched myself into having my own business, being part of a board for startup, my management consultancies, developing my own sustainability methodology. A lot of that's been grounded in transformation and I guess you can say transformation more from the business and not so much the technical side of things. So that's been very much the past 15 years that's brought me through that journey and a lot of that's been grounded in energy and resources or working with supply chains or working with services, businesses and governments. So all of that's come full circle to what brought me to Singapore which was firstly part of top four management consulting and then transitioning over to Microsoft for the first time ever from a technical point of view or a technology point of view in transformation and weaving all the best parts of my career into that as I go on this journey with them. I'm really into how did that transition to Microsoft actually start and what was the trigger point for that? Well for me the main trigger point of it was about you know really wanting to take my career on a different direction. I've been part of management consulting for a really long time and always doing that transformation more so from the business side of things and it was more about saying okay when I'm thinking about my longevity and I'm thinking about where I want to go and how I want to shape sustainability. So everything to do with co-innovation for me it was just a natural step to be thinking about Microsoft and to jump in across to be able to look at the big transformational deals we do, a lot of the co-innovation that we do with our customers as well as a lot of the work that we do we start up as well. So it was just a really great environment to be able to bring the best of that in the transformational space. Yes sounds like that and I understand sustainability is a part of your role at Microsoft here in Singapore. It is so I kind of wear many hats at Microsoft to be really honest with you so part of it is that I do work on large enterprise deals a lot of them are relating to how we partner with our customers and and how do we bring cutting edge deals to our customers on that enterprise level but also separate to that and a lot of this comes from my previous background in sustainability that I have that I've brought into Microsoft and as we go on our 2030 goal journey is about how do we engage our employee community so I lead our chapter here in Singapore and I co lead the Asia chapter around how do we engage our co innovators our both from a technical and non-technical point of view because what we're finding is what's really interesting the lot of people are actually working in sustainability or they do have a sustainability solution but they don't necessarily see it that way so how do we build this community how do we share thought leadership how do we you know really build the excitement and empower every employee to have sustainability as part of their role no matter what their title or their role is in the company and then also I'm using my subject matter expertise background in sustainability to engage the dialogue with customers more at that I guess you can say the strategic advocacy partner in point of view so there's some of the ways that I'm using sustainability as my previous background and infusing that into my role in Microsoft very good I'm really curious to get your thoughts on this one when I at least for me my opinion when I see sustainability roles at a lot of big companies and corporates I feel there's generally you know are these companies we question are these companies just paying lip service to sustainability are they really making commitment and an impact to actually change their behaviors actions and their business models for a more sustainable means do you find that with sustainability roles in the industry at the moment yeah I think I think it all depends on how you look at it and I think it also depends on the maturity level of where the companies are so one thing and so when I think about what we're doing with with Microsoft and the process we're going through it's all grounded in accountability it's all saying this is your day she's goal that we have and this is what we're going to hold ourselves accountable and that's really really important because it sends that message to the market around this is important this is how we're engaging in this space this is how we're working with our partners and our customers and also our industries to be able to solve some of these challenges and I think the thing is when you you look at it from the like from a role perspective versus how do you infuse it within the company you definitely do need to have these sustainability roles but equally you to be able to when I think about a 2030 goal and when we're aiming to head for you really need everybody in the company to have sustainability in their role in some way shape or form and that's what you see leading companies do in this space you'll see the leadership team talking about sustainability not just as a standalone bucket on its own but it's infused in part of the business as part of the transformation as part of co-innovation as well as empowering all their employees to be able to engage and apply sustainability in the way that it makes sense for themselves in their role right you mean you really have to I guess keep that messaging consistent very transparent very clear I guess as well if at the lower levels of of the hierarchy if they certainly see the mid-levels and the high levels consistently you know doing what they say that is going to trickle down right that's right and but it's keeping that consistent message and you know anything in the transformation space it changes takes time it takes time to model it and if you look at a textbook in a change situation you'll have a big group that's involved and then you've got the other group that you still need to engage you still need to go through the process I think that's normal for any transformation whether it's the energy transformation whether it's sustainability whether it's just changing an organizational structure it takes time and you need to pace yourself and you also need to bring people on that journey with you understandable you are one of the early entrants to the sustainability space and if you think about say 10 15 years ago or even five years ago you think about how working in sustainability or a sustainability field compares to now what are some of the obvious differences and changes and mainly to the dynamic and the cultures of workspaces that you've seen yeah no I think you know I'm actually really excited about where we are I think we really are at a tipping point in terms of sustainability still a long way to go as well but we're at that point and I think there's also the fact that we are at a burning platform for another way to explain it with the fact of the 1.5 degree measurements saying that if we don't mitigate this by 2030 we are going to have some we're vulnerable here in Asia in particular to some of the actions or some of the risks that are going to take place as a result of that but what I do think is really exciting about where we are at and what I see the differences versus 10 15 years ago when I started is back then it was kind of a nice to have it was it's your hobby it was a side project yes side project, it was treated as more in buckets, it was treated as one bucket was over there and like risk was here. Very compartmentalised. That's kind of thing, which is also how I came about my methodology because I could say, hey hang on, we've got all these different buckets of what is risk and then what is community and then what is social responsibility. And then if we actually pull them together and pull them as part of the business system, we get a lot of productivity and efficiency out of it and a lot of growth that comes about. And that's where I can say that we're actually here. We're finding companies more and more starting to understand how sustainability is part of doing business good. It's actually part of growth, it's part of competitive transformation. And what are also things really exciting about where we are here in Singapore and in this region are also part of an innovation hub. So, you know, we do, there are definitely some challenges. This is not an easy way, I guess you can say an easy solve. But we have the dialogue open, we have the communities, we also have the diversity of thinking across the region that we have a great opportunity to be able to leapfrog and really solve some of the challenges that we have in sustainability. Correct, so here, in your opinion, what are the industries that really need to play catch up, they need to do more to have a bigger push towards sustainability? Well, I think, you know, that's actually a really tough one to answer, to be honest, because I think what you'll see across all industries is always shining lights for another way of explaining it. There's a couple of, you'll see there's a couple of businesses that always do stand out that are taking a leading role. What I would say is follow those leaders, maybe don't necessarily be, and if you're finding in your industry that isn't necessarily a company that's taking the step forward, please don't wait to be the ones that take the, please don't wait for someone else to take the first step forward is what I'm trying to say, get engaged, get involved, even if it's really small, minimal steps. And in terms of playing catch up, I think it's just really just get started, start the dialogue, think about what this means for us as a business, what this means for our industry, what actually makes sense for this industry. So if I think about, if I use an example for Microsoft, you know, when we look at sustainability as a topic across all industries, there's a very broad, there's lots of different ways that you can apply it, but Microsoft supplied it across its four key sprints of carbon, water, waste and ecosystems, the water announcements to come. And it makes a lot of sense to technology, it makes a lot of sense to our products and services, and it makes a lot of sense in terms of how we engage with our markets as well. So that's an example. So the way every company applies sustainability is going to be really different depending on their industry, their areas of operations, that's going to be influenced by government policy as well, because that plays a bit of a role in how you need to operate around this space. And it's also going to be dependent on your organisation and the maturity of your organisation as well. Of course. So you've got to be able to unpack that for another way of explaining it to apply sustainability in a way that makes sense. So really there's no one size fits all operations. Definitely not. No, definitely not. And I think, you know, when I think about customers that I used to speak to before sustainability and before Microsoft, a lot of them were, you know, we really want to be involved, but we don't know where to begin or we don't know where to start. And it's about how do you make that picture make sense for you. So that's a really key point, I think. And I always, you know, being in Southeast Asia, we're in essentially a region which has, you know, quite a few emerging markets. And I always think that, you know, if I was a business owner in somewhere like the Philippines, where sustainability understandably is not front of mind for a lot of business owners and a lot of the population there, you know, a lot of these people just don't have power. You know, that's their priority. Now if I'm a business owner there, I run a factory, I employ dozens of people. How do I get sustainability to be kind of front at mind, you know, whereas, okay, we're using dirty coal, we're using fossil fuels, but I may want to have a push towards cleaner energy or sustainability. But right now that just isn't possible. It's not a priority. My priority is keeping people employed. How do we reach out to these types of business owners and these communities and say, look, actually, here's a solution for you, which is more sustainable. I appreciate it's a really tough question to answer, but I really want to think if I was in the shoes of these people and which obviously they can make a difference whether they decide to have more sustainable methods or not, how do we reach out and connect and change the ways people operate? I mean, yeah, that's a really good one. Thanks. And I'm going to lean more on, I guess, my overall sustainability experience to answer this question. And, you know, it really does start in dialogue. It really starts in really understanding what are the pressing needs for that business, as well as what are the pressing needs for the community as well. And it comes back to a discussion that does come up a lot around, you know, what do you do with these industries that have whole communities that revolve and have and rely on these industries for their livelihoods, really, or starts in dialogue. And it's about then saying, okay, how do we, or how do we work together to be able to change that picture for you? So what will be more cost effective? Because sustainability is also about protecting your environment, protecting your community, but also being really cost effective. The crux of sustainability is how do we do more with less? How do we do more with our finite resources for another way of explaining it as well? So it's about starting that dialogue to then start to be able to say, what is going to make the best sense for your business model? What's going to have the biggest, most positive impact on your community and also your employees and their livelihoods? And then how do you shape that as a whole system using technology, bringing people along on that journey, co-innovating to problem solve some of the challenges? And by what I have seen really work really well in this region or in the more emerging nations for another way of explaining it is amazing innovations through startups have come up at this more micro level. So you know, things like when I think about our group business and the way smallholder farmers have been supplied with digital devices that allows the technology to, they're able to take a picture to show what their crop is doing and then get the right advice to be able to say, okay, this is what we need to do to maximize the digital minimise the impact that's going to take to my say. So there's so many opportunities to look at but it all starts in grounding in that dialogue, understanding what the business priority is, understanding what the cost basis as well, and then how that's going to have the biggest impact on employees and the community they operate in. That's interesting. So so much is really done at that ground level rather than having a big, you know, top down kind of helicopter view, which is great, you know, you can make a momentous change but it does take I think a lot more time right as you pointed out with transformation, but actually going on the ground and impacting, you know, a small business and a small community and changing the way permanently how they operate that can be so much more effective, right? It can be like and and I hear what you're saying as well because it is at that ground level because you really do need to understand what's happening at the ground level to bring it up to the upper level. I would say to flip it around in another way, the whole basis of my sustainability careers all been around environmental social governance. So my background's grounded in the governance strategy and how do you implement that. So it's almost more okay. So what I find really effective is you do need to understand that ground level, but you also need to bring it up to what does this picture look like from an overall, if you want to look at it from a bigger company corporate strategy and how do you make it meet in the middle? Because by allowing it to meet in the middle, you have a lot more access to data. You really understand what the impact is on your overall supply chain or your value chain for another way to explain it. You really understand what the differences are, you know, because when you when you if I applied to an Asia-Pac regional business model, excuse me, when you're running a regional model or regional business, you still have areas of operations and companies that you need to be working, or countries that you need to be working with. So you need to understand what is happening country to country, you know, culture to culture, legislation to legislation to be able to shape that as part of the bigger picture for the entire region. And that's what I mean by you bring it back to the middle. And where I've seen it be most effective is where you got that great communication flow and that great informational flow of data coming from what's happening at that ground level and how do you apply that at that bigger level so that the right decisions can be made, the right risk can be mitigated, and then also get the right knowledge and influencing happening. Okay, understandable. You know, interesting you mentioned the word ESG. It's such a buzz word right now, you know, especially if I look at it from a recruitment perspective, how many mandates have really grown in the last few years with an ESG title in it. There's so much momentum now with ESG sustainability. If anything, what could decelerate or, you know, a lot of these companies that are making this big push-like Microsoft, is there anything you think that would really decelerate that momentum or drift them off course? You know, I think the main thing that will, or another way to try to look at it as well, is it's not so much about this deceleration per way or getting off course, it's more about How do you bring everybody on the journey? Right? So you have these goals, you're going on that journey, you're taking that approach, but it's how do you make sure that you're bringing everybody along, or if you need to, you go back and pick people up, or you go back and you reiterate the messages and come across the journey. And I think, you know, I want to see the biggest thing that will decelerate is not doing anything at all and not taking any actions. So even the smallest step forward and the smallest action can have a big impact as well. And when I apply it to an individual level, I hear a lot of people say, "But I'm just one person, half an hour I have an impact." And I'll say, "Well, actually what you decide to do at home and how you manage your way to home, that in itself has a big impact for your community." So for me, it's deceleration will take place if no action is taken at all. Yeah, it's quite easy, though, to, as an individual, think that as a collective, something's going to happen. And it's not necessary for me to do anything, I'll be part of that. But I use, I think about this recent example where I've started to eat less meat and I love an impossible burger. Sometimes, that's a nice little treat, not cheap, but it's not meat, right? And it tastes really good. And I always think that, "Okay, I'm one person and I'm deciding to eat an impossible burger." So my money and my spend is now going towards this plant-based meat. Now, what if I could tell five or ten people that, you know what, this impossible burger is actually really quite nice? Why don't you try instead of having a beef burger next time? So now, ten people are deciding to put their spend towards something that isn't meat-based, this plant-based. It does have a slow little trickle impact because obviously, they like it and they communicate that to their friends and family and so on and so forth. Corporations aren't necessarily bad or evil in that respect. They're just doing what the market wants and desires. If we start moving our behaviors, we start moving our expenditure in a certain direction, surely they would follow, right? And I certainly think that's when you make the point about everyone can make a difference. Every individual has that choice. Yeah, absolutely. And if I think about what I've been doing in my own home for a very long time is, you know, I try to do as minimal plastics as possible and if it is plastic, it has to be recycled. That also means that I make very conscious choices around things like where if I am sourcing meat products, where do I sort of set from? Or how frequently I might eat that all the way through to, I don't have products that are tested on animals. Everything has to be organic, all these sorts of things. Also, you know, where possible I use like for example, shampoo and conditioner bars that don't actually come in bottles or actually soap bars. So there's lots of different things that we can be doing at that point of view. But equally, it's all the collective of whether you're a company taking this step forward, whether you're an individual taking this step forward, it's a collective effort of what everyone is doing from that corporate and then individual point of view. It's going to bring us to the end goal of what we need for sustainability. 100% and I also just think about the economics of it, though, as well. And, you know, talking about, for example, earlier the example of a Philippines business owner who's using coal to run his factory. Same deal with someone who maybe wants to have plant-based meat and who wants to, you know, move away from, you know, having beef and chicken and pork that's not necessarily sustainably farmed. But it's cheap, you know, and if they don't have the economics there, and if they're on a low income, it's quite easy to go to McDonald's and have a $5 mill as opposed to spending $15 on a mill that isn't obviously, you know, using products that aren't sustainably sourced. So economics make a massive difference here. And I think looking at obviously renewables and what happened with solar panels, you know, why are renewables is on a surge right now? Because if how cheap things like solar panels are, could we see something similar in sustainable industries where the economics is derived this scale so everything becomes super cheap and easy to and affordable for people to use? Yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, solar and energy transition we're going through is a really great classic example of this. Because many years ago, I think while we were in the 80s, solar panels were deemed to be too expensive. Whereas now they are cheap, they're easy to access. I won't say necessarily cheap, but they're cheaper, easy to access. People can have them on their homes and they put in energy back in the grid. And this is the kind of co-innovation and the kind of examples that we're saying in different industries around the world, where the more, I guess you can say, more creativity, the more technology, the more co-innovation that goes into that, the better that outcomes were able to get that has the best positive impact for all. Another example I would use in the space of energy, for example. I do know that there's a company back in Perth who they're experimenting with blockchains. They're using it on the micro level at the moment within a building block and a building apartment, but they're using blockchains as a technology, which is in this particular scenario, a lot cheaper than what we were traditionally used for infrastructure and energy. In terms of how do we capture the energy use per apartment to then make sure that what they have used for the day or what they no longer need for the day gets put back into the grid. And they're using blockchains and those sorts of examples. It's a great model. Yeah, it's a great model. And these are the things that are really exciting that you see, where if people, these challenges that we're talking about, every single one of these challenges, they have a solution. There's a way to solve these challenges and it's about, again, opening that dialogue, someone having a great idea to say, hey, maybe we can solve this by using the blockchains example, or how do we make this more affordable and more accessible for others on a larger scale so that we can have a big impact. Really promoting those questions right there, definitely. Going back to your journey, your career. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] And you're one of the rare people I find and I meet here in Singapore who have taken a very early push in their career towards sustainability. Why do you think that is, was there a particular individual in your life, a moment in your life, a period where perhaps that inspired you on this journey? There's lots of ways I can answer this one. So I would start, I actually would start with my mentors, right, on this particular answer. And you know, I was really lucky to have amazing mentors in my life who pivoted the way my career went. And the first example was, yeah, when I was working back at the law firm. And I had these three great men who were all partners of the law firm, internationally well known for energy resources and the work that they do. And they're also busy fathers themselves or two of them were fathers themselves. And they just sat me down one day and I said, hey, if you want to do this forever, there's nothing wrong with that. But we know you can do more or we know you can apply yourself in different ways. So have a think about it. You tell us what you're thinking and we'll sit down and we have this conversation. And it took six months to look up there. But we sat down and what the end result was was I ended up starting to go to university, starting going to university straight away. And they actually helped me go through a process of working full-time while starting part-time to go through my professional career as well as studying to be able to supplement that as well. So that's one of the pivot. So if I didn't have that interaction, I might not have ended up on the pathway in business the way that I did with the legal background as well as the energy resources background. And it just sent me on this whole different journey of how to look at my career and how to shape my career. And it was all just by people giving me gentle nudges along the way. So that's at a really, really young age. And if it wasn't for that I don't know that I would necessarily be who I am today. The next part of I guess one inspired me to take this journey so I've gone through that university process and I'm going into the world of more to energy resources and business and you know I've always been curious about sustainability anyway because one of the things I'm working in energy and resources and especially in the roles that I was at it's an industry that's always had to have a lot of accountability cutting energy technology at all times. It also is very much about risk you have to really understand risk and what that means to everybody around you and the environment as well as the your communities and areas you're operating to all those elements always existed and that's how I started to become really interested in sustainability and really understanding it from a different point of view and then from another university perspective how it brought me to the next part of my journey was I part of my master's sustainability was part of it and the topics that I was talking about what led to my to one of the methodologies that I created through my business I was invited to do as part of my PhD back in the UK and at the time I just went you know I've been working full-time studying part-time for almost 10 years now I want to turn this into a business project so that's what actually launched my business it allowed me to work with customers in Asia Pacific on that regional scale and it allowed me to do work both in transformation but also explore sustainability further in this front and so it took me to one of my favourite clients who really really amazing man part of the energy and resources services business that he had and so whilst I was working with him from that transformational space so they had to really change the business transformation model we were looking at a market dip as well so they were going to have quite a big hit from a financial point of view it was all about how do we I should take a step back that was kind of identified in good 18 months before the market did the shift so it was saying how do we look at this business model from a different point of view how do we get more product to really inefficiency how do we look at this from a more sustainable point of view so it's been able to review the best of transformation as well as sustainability through that process and work through that in partnership with the customer and the leadership team and their operations made that possible so in that process I learned everything about running a five hundred million dollar business as well and this is stuff you can't put on your CV and as a result of that so going through that process being able to apply that in a live transformational situation really being able to understand what this means from a sustainable point of view as well a productivity efficiency point of view that's actually what's led me on so much of this journey or that was almost like the what came full circle and it was also through his advice and his mentoring is what actually got me here to Singapore. What's really the stuff that matters you know you just said you don't put on your CV sometimes you can't articulate those experiences but they have huge powerful impacts in the journey that you take and the decisions that you make in your career. Yeah absolutely so I've just always been lucky what I will always say is yeah this has been a journey and it's involved a lot of hard work but it's always involved working with other people it's it's always been I've been really so lucky to have the kind of mentors that have have willingly engaged with me and willingly said hey yeah let's look at this from a different point of view and and how do we help you while you're also helping us so that's been a really big part of the journey too. Is there anything that you would have done differently looking back at the points of your career? In all honesty there was definitely nothing easier about it in the journey that I went on but I would not change any of it because all of it led me to what I am today it helped shape my career the way it shaped and you know I think about the process of how I didn't go to university straight away I then got coaching and mentoring I did go to university while working full time which sacrificed my whole 20th social life to be really honest with you. You didn't miss much. Yeah that's what everyone tells me. Then went on to launch my business I've lived overseas in London you know I would not have been on any it's been such a diverse journey that's taught me so much it's taught me a lot about business decision-making what kind of impacts people go through what it means from a tactical operational point of view so it's just taught me so much and I would never never change any of it for the world. It's awesome to hear. What you mentioned is it's been tough with the points of real hardship in your life that you believed has really transformed your mindset your approach to life in general? Yeah I mean unfortunately I did go through a very personal experience when I was 12 my father passed away and you know it's it's it's a really pivotal life point. It's tough. It's a really tough point. Having said that as well it's one of those other things that you don't wish it for anyone you don't want anyone to go through it but it's also instrumental in shaping who I am and the way that I see the world and from that going through that alone it's taught me a lot around how to stay grounded and make you know really make good decisions and be able to step forward when you are going through a hard time or when you do have a lot of chaos that's going around you because I think the reality is we're human we're all going to go through these hard points at some some stage of life but then equally it taught me a lot about you know compassion and empathy and being kind because none of us actually know what anyone is ever going through at any one stage and point so it's taught me a lot about that so you can be really grounded and very logical but then also there's an emotional side to that too and it's also about it's okay to be vulnerable it's really okay and these are just lessons that you learn along the way so you know I think it's one of the really interesting things being in business very young you always taught to try to keep them separate but bringing them together is actually what makes you who you are and part of how you overcome your challenges and I think one of the things that you know that that is really defining when you go through something like that so young is everything's solvable everything really is solvable and that's kind of the approach that I take to everything not saying that anything's ever easy or everything's always rainbows and sunshine but everything is solvable and you just need to sit down and you have a conversation or think about it and think about how you're going to do it differently you're equipped with the tools knowing okay well this has happened and this is what I need to do yeah exactly maybe not maybe not something you want to learn or not something that I wish for anyone else to go through but it certainly has equipped me with some amazing tools and amazing ability to be able to take the next step forward needed well the proof is important we've clearly you know heard from or the remarkable things you've achieved so far in your career if you think about what people need to do now to become part of this we can call it the new energy economy energy transition sustainability drive there's a lot of people right now who want to be part of this and rightly so I think a lot of people should be part of this but they struggle to really bridge that gap they feel too far away from the industry they've been in from perhaps a career that's so far away from what they see in sustainability but how can people genuinely become part of this transition what do you think from your own opinion doing this at a very early age what can people do? yeah I think you know it's really interesting because it's come up a lot lately where a lot of people in my day to day life say oh but I don't have a background in this that I understand it and I say you know what it's okay well and I'll give them an example of even coming to Microsoft myself it's my first time in a pure technology background or in technology company but it hasn't my background in transformations actually adding so much value in that environment and I give them lots of examples around that and just being able to say hey really think about what is your drive and your passion from an individual point of view find your tribe find the people you can connect with and the reality is sustainability yeah it's find your tribe find your tribe and it's such a big broad topic I mean that's the reality of it that not one person can hold all the knowledge and all the capability and and I guess with the whole skill set that's required to solve the sustainability challenge that we have in front of us so that's the first one find your tribe really engage where it makes sense for you and really find your passion in it because that's what's going to drive the next steps that you take as an individual then that leads to the next part which is a corporate point of view and when it comes to what companies can be doing again it's all about opening that dialogue sitting the accountability that makes sense for your industry it also sets that dialogue of how you engage with your customers and how you're going to engage with your industry but also co-innovation co-innovation is so important in terms of everything that we're solving from a transformational and a sustainability point of view even what we're doing in the covid space when you look at what's happening in covid and the transformation with the experience over the past six months because it's that co-innovation both from a non-technical and a technical point of view that is going to bring us to the solutions that we need and that's where we get that diversity and that's where we get that richness of thinking and the great ideas that come to be able to enable us to solve this. - Great to hear that. And while I hope we do see that sooner than later and we see more people like yourself taking those initiatives and more companies like Microsoft doing what Microsoft is currently undergoing. You've had a really impressive career. I have to say I'm really, it's a pleasure to have someone like you sitting down and talking about what you've done so far in your life and in your career, Larena. So what's next? What's your vision? What do you want to achieve 2021 and beyond? Where's this all going? - You know, I think what the ultimate vision is for me, what the dream would be is that from a sustainability point of view, it's part of everyone's role. That it would be so wonderful to see every single individual acting and behaving in sustainability in a way that it makes sense for them. And to also see companies make this an integral part of what they do in transformation in how they engage with their communities and how they go about their everyday business. And I think for me that'll be the ultimate dream. - I like it, I like it. Well, I'll certainly do my part and you've inspired me to do a little bit more than we're currently doing. Larena, thank you so much for your time. This morning, it's been a real pleasure again to have you on board and we wish you're the best with the role at Microsoft. No doubt you achieved some amazing things and all the best with the years to come and we'll stay touch. - Thank you, thanks so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun. - Great, you're welcome. Take care. (upbeat music) - We hope you enjoyed that discussion about sustainability.