Episode 3: Early protest under Apartheid 1948 - 1970

- Hey, I'm Ariana Grande. - Hi, I'm Zidia Rivo, and you're listening to the Broadway podcast, "Nap-Bake." Visit bpm.fm to discover them. (upbeat music) - See, I don't have bits for it. It's always embarrassing to try to start this off with a bit when you've got a guest, and this time I guess that I know in real life. - You're not gonna send a prisoner for us? - Oh yeah. - No, I'm not. That's not like one of my favorite Barbara Strysan songs. Although I'm not sure this movie would exist without it. - That's true. - Andrew, could you sing prisoner? Do you even remember the song? - God, it played for that whole fucking scene, but I cannot remember it for the life of me. I just remember thinking to myself, damn, this song just keeps fucking going. - It's like, "Ahh, it's a prisoner!" Yeah, that is it. (laughing) - "Ahh, it's a prisoner!" - We should just have love theme from X movie, come back as a thing that exists. Someone already commented on our page, "Nickle for the first person that brings up Barbara Strysan." It happens before the episode even started. - Oh boy. (laughing) (upbeat music) - Hello, I'm Jesse Mackinac. - And I'm Andrew DeWolf. - And I'm Lossesson. - And welcome to the Cheese Wheel, a hyperfixation podcast where our topics are gambled on a big wheel. And this time we have a very special guest. Please join me in welcoming filmmaker extraordinaire and truly, like one of the most intelligent and most learned film enthusiasts I've ever had the pleasure of meeting, please welcome from 52 scripts, it's Sarah Matthews. - Yay! - Welcome to the show. - Welcome. - I am so excited to have you on because a lot of our conversation is just you recommending me movies. And that is kind of our relationship to each other. It is us just chatting and you're like, you have to watch this movie because Super Secret Project. And this is one of the first ones you have ever recommended. - It's true, it's true. I like that you didn't put a qualifier on the type of movies that I recommend because usually they're not the best, but I feel like I'd rather watch something that was an interesting idea that is executed poorly than beautiful nothingness. So this is definitely something that falls into that category. And just for a little spoilers or speculation, the penultimate episode to this series is going to be the only movie Sarah and I have seen in a theater together. - Oh boy. Oh, you guys are gonna have a good time, a bad time. You're gonna have a time and you have a lot of time to have multiple types of time. - I usually don't drink while watching these movies, but I might have to for that one. So. - It won't help. - Oh god damn. - Yeah, that's a 40X experience. - Oh. - Especially certain scenes. - Oh god. - But let's not speculate about the future. Let's keep our eyes on the prize. This week we are talking about John Carpenter's story but directed by Irvin Kirchner's, the eyes of Laura Mars. - You mean John Peters, the eyes of Laura Mars? - Yeah, really it is. He is the person behind this, but man, the other folks that are trying to make something real here are really putting their effort in. - This is incredible. - Fade done away. - In the midst of all this, I can't stop thinking of you. - Tommy Lee Jones. - I know. - Without reason. - I'm supposed to be catching a killer. - Without warning. - What is going on? - She sees through the eyes of a killer, eyes of Laura Mars. - Really? - I can't trust thrilling vision of romance. - Damn it, so. - And terror. Ray to the heart. - Yeah, so the eyes of Laura Mars is a film written by John Carpenter and David Zalag Goodman with a story by John Carpenter directed by Irving Kirchner, who may not ring onto everyone's ears, but he's directed films such as The Empire Strikes Back, the one of the two indie films. - Well, the indie films. - The only good Star Wars movies. - Yeah, well, you say indie film, but it was the most expensive independent film ever made at the time. - That's true, sure. - The film was released on August 2nd 1978 by Columbia Pictures. On its release, the film received mixed reviews. On the review aggregator website, Ron Tomatoes, the film holds an approval rating of 62%. Its critical consensus reads, "Eyes of Laura Mars hints at interesting possibilities, "but they're freddered away by predictable story "that settles for superficial thrills." The plot of The Eyes of Laura Mars is fashion photographer Laura Mars, whose photograph contained violent images develops the ability to see through a killer's eyes. Before we go into Liz and Andrews, since you are kind of the root of why we're all here, Sarah, when did you first see The Eyes of Laura Mars and why? - So I do a thing every October, where I watched 31 horror movies in 30 days, 31 days, usually on a theme. So a few years ago, I wanted to do a Jalow month with eyes on the, I'd go right movie that was coming out at the end of the month. - Last night, Soho. - Last night, Soho, which was not a Jalow. - It, there was, there was an in-between part where it may have been. He had, he had talked a lot about it being in tribute to that era of filmmaking. And so I watched 31 Jalow, Jalow inspired Jalow adjacent films. And I hit a certain point in the month where I got very sick of the Italian ones. Due to content. - Can I pause for a quick second? Just in case people don't know, what is Jalow? - Jalow is a genre of thriller that was made typically low budget in Italy in the mostly 70s. There's some precursors, some proto-jalow that was happening in the 60s. There's some lingering stuff that has gone on since then, just in thrillers in Europe in general. There are some hallmarks of it. Jalow is one of those things that's kind of like noir. It's a vibe more than it is a very specific set of circumstances where there's usually a murder, there's some mistaken identity. It's typically presented partway through as being maybe supernatural, usually isn't. Sometimes it is. And there's a lot of knives and black-loved hands and mistaken identity and sexy garbage. Usually it's a lot of not a heavy plot, but a lot of beautiful looks. I actually, I have a record back there that is the score to Deep Red, which would be one of my recommendations from that month. A lot of them I would not recommend, but when I was working through that list, I was looking at some of the American films that had been influenced by that movement. And Isaac Lauer-Mars came up for me there. I feel like this and dressed to kill like could exist in the same universe. You can walk down the street or one movie could be happening at the same time. I would add cruising to that list actually. I think they're all kind of set in sort of the same area. They're enough. And now Andrew Liz, this is the first time 'cause I make you guys do this. Andrew, what did you think of Eyes of Lauer-Mars? - It's kind of like all over the place. It's just a little bit. It's, I don't know. I feel like this is one where I need to sit with it a little more before I really know how I feel about it, but on first impression, I'm like, eh, it was okay. It definitely has a vibe to it, but I feel like the ending, especially, just kind of doesn't work. - Is that well? I don't know. I don't disagree and we'll go into why that kind of came together the way that is. Liz, what do you think? - I'm kind of with Andrew. I like the vibes. It's like, it has a lot of potential behind some of the weird stuff and the writing, which is like trying to make it work, but the breast of the movie just isn't working with it. That's like there's a behind the scenes person messing everything up and making it weird. But I, starting this, I was like, okay, I don't know what this is going to be. And then a John Peters film appears on my screen. And I'm like, oh, this is going to be a garbage heap with a lot of potential. Cool. And Barbara should have been in it. - I'll know. So this started as a script written by John Carpenter right after he finished Dark Star. Like he had just kind of left film school that was like doing his own thing. - Did Dark Star do well? - It's alien. - Okay. - If you like the movie alien, if you want to goof your version of that, it's that. - It's a solid point. - And it ends up on John Peters desk and he's like, yeah, I want to make this. I'm going to make this. And then he and John Carpenter worked on it together for a while to tailor it to Barbara Streisand. Like they were working together to do exactly that. Then eventually John Carpenter just got sick of John Peters who is trajectory, if you don't know. He was a hairdresser who knew a lot through Hollywood from being a hairdresser, specifically one for Barbara Streisand. Then he became her manager and then he became a studio head, which is how you used to fail upwards and now you just don't. - Mm-hmm. - And then when John Carpenter's out, he kept working on it and he turned what was originally a horror into a romance, which is where they really leaned into it. He started offering it to directors and they all rejected including Irving Kirschner. And then they're like, well, if we can't get directors, we might as well get stars 'cause Barbara dropped out because she said it was just horrible. In her own words, but I still like the song "Prister" for it, you could keep that. And then they got Faye Dunnoay in. And once Faye Dunnoay agreed to be in it, Irving Kirschner said, yes, I'll do it. However, I'm not going to do this as some slasher movie. I want to do this as a critique on the fashion industry. which was not much of an aspect of any other draft, but that was what he brought to it. It was like, this needs to be about fashion and how women lose their personhood through fashion and how violent that industry is. - It's definitely kind of about that sometimes. - So the men writing women vibe was correct. Okay, got it. - Yeah, there's definitely a big mishmash going on. - There's a lot. - There's some tonal stuff where you're like, oh, this is like four different things. It's our favorite pages from four different draft. - I love reading four books at once. - But the thing is, you could tell that Urban Kirschner kind of turns on as a director as soon as we see her staging these long photo shoots and all that. That is super accurate, but the way it handles police work and the way that it handles human interactions are just very, I don't wanna say Italian, but very weird. I was gonna text Justice, but I was gonna text him randomly. This is the worst cop I've ever seen in any movie ever. (laughing) - Well, he's got right under his nose. - He's got right under his nose. - That's a little bit more shadowy. - And that reveal, I guess spoilers, if you care. - Spoilers. - In John Carpenter's original screenplay, it was gonna be Halloween. They don't know who the killer is. You never find out. It is just an unstoppable force that she can't avoid seeing the kills through. And then they decided well, we had to reveal the killer and we've got only one real male character that it could be. And Tom Lee Jones basically wrote that monologue himself and performed it that same day. And you can feel it. - Yeah, it definitely has the vibe of an actor who's younger coming to work and saying, "I wrote a whole backstory for my character." And normally that's where you'd stop and say, "Okay, cool, great. That's gonna inform so much for you. We don't need to know about it." And he went, "No, that's the point in the movie though, right? The little monologue I wrote, that's gonna tie it all up, right?" - And it does. - It does tie it up. - It ties something up. - It ties it like a noose around the movie. - It has nothing to do with any of the other stuff that was happening. I feel like there's no resolution to the actual point of the movie where her seeing the kills. It's just, oh no, it's just some guy. - It's a guy. - It's a guy. - Yeah, and then the movie ends. I was like, "Why was she psychic? What the fuck?" - Yeah, it does feel like that's one of those things where I look at it and say, "Okay, so you could have done something cool where they're like psychically connected. That's why they're drawn to each other." They are whatever personality of his is attached to her is informing something, but it's just kind of Tommy Lee Jones and his unibrowly. I'm like, "Oh, this is my job. Oh, you can see the kills that I do, but also I know about them sometimes." The logic is not there, but the visuals and the vibes are certainly there. The score is certainly there. Like, I want to buy this on a vinyl 'cause I feel like this is just the weird disc of a score alone is just worth listening to over and over again. The pieces are so pretty, it just makes the weirdest, most disformed image I've ever seen. - Yeah, I do want to draw a little attention to some of those photo shoots because the cool thing about a lot of the fashion photography in this film, Laura's portfolio is mostly pictures taken by Helmut Newton, who would have been one of the photographers that were cut and be criticized by the cursor angle on the film. He's known for doing these really provocative, black and white images. They're cool. If you don't know who he is, you've definitely seen some of them in their worth looking up, but that kind of 70s provocateur angle being imposed on a female photographer is a little interesting to me. I don't know if they're making the point they want to make there. - I also find her role as a photographer. She's like the most famous photographer on the planet. Like, even Annie Leibowitz is not as famous as Laura Mars is. She is as famous as Faye Dunnoway and that is just the world we're living. I don't know why that baffled me so much in this specific watch. - I do wonder if it was Barbara if you would question it at all. - I think about a film like the exorcist where the lead character is a quote unquote famous actor. It almost no one's bringing it up. I saw it from like Quick Lines or here. It's like her entire thing is how famous she is. - Yeah. - It makes me wonder if she was just a star in previous versions, singer or something. - Yeah. - And then now we're this. I feel like you do get a little bit of the Warhol factory vibe with the party at the beginning for her new exhibition. So I feel like they're trying to lean into that kind of late '60s early '70s stardom for some of these artists where they were hit makers of images. But I don't know that that reads the same way in 1978. - Yeah. And also as a proper horror film, this kind of false flat in his face, like even compared to Halloween that comes out this very same year, it's just there's no attention to suspense. It is just about, I don't even know what it's about as far as this. And it's strange because two years later, Irvin Kirschner will have such a deaf, confident hand and a much bigger film. And here in what is not that big a film, it is so second-guessy. - Yeah. - The horror elements in particular, yeah, it's really like, there's no kills necessarily. Like you would expect from a slasher movie. Like people get killed, but it's never like a scene. I don't know. I don't know how to describe it. It's just like you see it and then it like cuts to something else entirely. And then it like the cops show, I don't even like it varies, but it's, I don't know. - You almost exclusively get it through like Laura Vision. - Exactly, exactly. But I kind of like that. A justification for why that is the coolest way to do it. And yeah, I see, like if you set that up as a language, but I also think the language doesn't work, which John Carpenter also criticized. Have you heard his comments on the finished product? - I certainly have not. - I have not. - Well, you're about to. I got it right, are we ready? Oh yeah. - I'm so sorry. - That was the whole point of the movie. - I like that he blew it. - They kind of do it though. Like there is a part of that ending scene where she is seeing herself being attacked, but it just kind of doesn't do anything. - Yeah, it's so breathing. - But it feels like it's something that should be safe for the climax and it really kind of, it's. - Yeah. - Yeah, you get that. - It make the vision thing make more sense 'cause it would be like, it would be like the check-offs gun. It'd be like, oh, now this makes sense. Okay, cool. - Yeah, I feel like one of the most successful sequences in the movie is the part where she's explaining to Tom Ylee Jones what her visions look like using the camera and the monitor. That must be one of the things that survived all the versions of the script 'cause it really does feel like the most interesting and successful part of it. - Let's see more what John says. I'm sure he's gonna be very respectful and you know, courteous. (laughing) - Can't help you. - I can't help you. (laughing) - I'll go side for a while. - He's blaming somebody. - He's not blaming the director, which is interesting, but it just goes to show the power John Peters had. I'm sure we all know the, at this point, famous Kevin Smith spider store with John Peters as well as the less famous Likurus pizza scene where Bradley Cooper plays him. - I haven't seen that, but. - Yeah, it's weird. Sarah, how would you describe that, John Peters in that movie? - I feel like he is almost a fully end of his life, Elvis's Wario. - Oh God. (laughing) - What? - In terms of-- - It's just in terms of, it's the big personality and the intensity. Everything's very intense. Yeah, I, it's so mixed with the kind of everybody's stories. I mean, we're lucky there's no giant spider in this. - Yeah. - We've got that going for us. - I think there should have been. - But thankfully, we've got prisoner, which is-- - Brist. - Do we like the song like-- - I don't remember it. - Okay. - In terms of those like 70s tie-in songs, I think it is one of the better ones for a film like this. It is pretty intense though. I would say for the movie that it's attached to, which is a lot of quiet, sad late 70s beige moments. - Yeah. - But it's like, I just love the power balance. - It's the star vehicle. It's really what the movie's actually about. - Yeah, it's clearly. - I mean, it's obviously what the producer wanted to be about. Like what other horror film has a quote unquote love theme? - True. The piano theme from Halloween's pretty romantic. I'm joking, obviously. - I mean, if we got some Game of Thrones shit going on between Michael and Laurie. - Yeah. - Robert Unglin's the Phantom of the Opera. - You're right. You're right. You found the one. You found the one. You pulled that right out and you were 100% correct. - I was gonna say when Freddie wrap with the fat boys, that was pretty romantic. That was pretty cool. - Damn, Andrew, 10 points. I have to shake that off. How about we go into a mid show when we talk more about this? - We have to recover from Andrew being right. - Okay. - Andrew's so right, I have to go into a mid show. (upbeat music) - Hi, it's Jesse and Andrew from Musicals with Cheese. and we're here to talk about the Broadway Drop Shop. - Everwish Broadway merch actually felt current? Not the same old logo T from the gift shop, something you actually want to wear in use? - Well the Broadway Drop Shop drops brand new modern merch inspired by the shows you love. But here's the twist, you never know what's coming next. - Every drop is a surprise, new designs, both new and old shows, limited runs. Once the merch is gone, it's gone. - It's like opening night every time you check in, that same rush of what's it gonna be. - If you're a creator or influencer in the theater space, they have an affiliate program where you can earn for every person who signs up using your referral link. - They set up now? - Oh, sorry. - Pardon me. - They set up now, the fuck me. They set up now, they buy later, you earn. - No, when they buy. - Sign up free at thebroadwaydropshop.com. So you never miss a drop. - You'll be the first to know before anyone else. - That's thebroadwaydropshop.com. New merch, new drops, no spoilers. - Go check it out right now. (upbeat music) - There aren't enough jedi to protect the Republic. We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers. (upbeat music) - I will create a grand army of the Republic to counter the increasing threats of the separatists. - We've done this cornwall as. (upbeat music) (screaming) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Ready PG. (dramatic music) - It's origin, alien, location, and article. Age unknown. Intent survival. (dramatic music) Destination. Man. John Carpenter is the theme, the ultimate in alien terror. Rated R. Starts Friday at a theater near you. Check newspapers for local listings. (laughing) - And now we have to read a bunch of names, Sarah. Enjoy it. Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you a meal the show, but we've got a chill at you. Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon. Andrew, what's Patreon? What's going on? And remind folks of what's happening in July. - All right, Patreon is where you can go if you'd like to give us some support and also get access to extra content. We have a bunch of stuff on there. We're about to have more stuff 'cause we're gonna have a whole second podcast on there. We're gonna talk about the TV shows. I won't be there, I'm sorry. If you love me, you should still support the Patreon, but you know. (laughing) But if you love Liz, you'll get even more Liz. - If you even want that, I understand if you don't. (laughing) - I believe. And also we'll read your name every episode, which Jess will do in this one. Yes, I will. Today, Patrons are late in A, even Cassidy, Monica Thro, Brent Black, John Van Al's, Russ Walker, Musical Hal, JNAC, nothing as certain except Beth and Texas, Desbian, Chai, T-Cup, Chris Marko, Keeji, Marie Annastasi, RJ, Norega, Joe, Toriana Frazier, Sammy, the adequate amount of Jacobson, Villamus, Miss, Sofia, and I'll leave the Omega Geek and Maddie Workout. Alisa, Erdman, Evan Ball, Mara, Mara, Mara, Puffy Boy, Goal, Platy, Kiki, Mora. He prays for my death every week. Arya, Ardy, Carl Bell, Dusso, Jairl, Studios, Flippity, Jiggett, Kayla Bailey, Sophia, Hurtado, Jessica, Pants, Pants, Kasey, Denning, Daniel, Thane, Athena, Kiana, and Kaley, Melagol. They'll give us some financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at the cheese wheel. And if you'd like to support us too, come join us over at Patreon. And Andrew, remind us what's going on in July. - So in July, we are bringing back musicals with cheese. So if you like, you can go with cheese. - Yeah, Liz will be dead. You will see she will be in our new art under the ground. - Yeah, I will be, I'm in a grave. - Going where we put Bri. - Yeah. - Put Bri and the others. - I'll be very next week. - The others, we know. All right, let's get back to the show. (upbeat music) - Tonight. - There's no other dance that anything can happen in Chinatown. - You have very nosy fellow, kid of cat, huh? You know what happens to nosy fellas? - Huh? - No. The coroner's report proves that he had salt water in his lungs when he was killed. - I don't know what you were talking about. I don't know, this is the greatest yes I've ever seen. - Jack Nicholson, Faye Dunowyn, and John Houston, star in Bowen-Polanski's Oscar winning thriller, Chinatown, tonight at five on KP TV 12. To celebrate Denny's Chicken Fried Steak Specials, we've asked the Corlec sisters to share their original recipe. - First, we bought the best chicken's raw. - It's steak. First, we bought the best steak around and baked it in batter. - We fried it. - We fried it in batter and served it with beef gravy. - Country gravy. - Country gravy, we lived in the city. - With the recipe, my sister never grasped. - That's why we always went to Lenny's. - Denny's, Denny's. - Try our Chicken Fried Steak Specials for breakfast, lunch, or dinner. Only at Denny's. Helping a father say goodbye. - Why would God want to take the best daddy? - He's the hardest job an angel can do. - You only have tonight left. Touched by an angel, CBS Sunday. (upbeat music) - It's time for everyone's favorite part of the show where we, where Liz Eston finds real letterbox reviews and Andrew and Sarah have to go head to head to guess whether there are one star, five star, based on nothing but the reveal load. It's time for reviews. - Oop. - Okay. - I forgot. I get to be a reader of this stuff. - I think I've got it. - Who's T-B-O-I-B-I-I-N-T-R? - I heard you on the T-T-T-M-R-B-I-N. - Put me on Jess's team. I feel like it's a stir. - Is it? - Is it for-- - Yeah. - All right, I'll go first. Never trust cops. #HeWasSexyThou. He honestly, just like briefly, he looks old but with hair. It's so weird. - I literally texted Jess like half an hour ago. Like an hour ago. Was Tommy Lee Jones ever handsome? - Weirdly, I feel like he looks better in like the fugitive era than he ever does in this room. - He ages into handsomeness, but now he just looks ugly. - I think he was born old. He's like if a Benjamin Button baby got stuck. - Yeah. - He's like, they got like aged back to like 50 and then they just stay there. - Yeah. - The rest of their life. They just lose their hair. - Look, but like they're still 50 the whole time. - He was never good looking, but he was always good to look at cinematically, if that makes sense. He always, even in this, like he's not like hop, but I am like you do capture the frame a bit. - He looks like a caveman. Not the way that I can really quantify beyond that, but he just, he looks like he thought on a vice and became a cop. - I would not trust that. - He looks like he would have been in the caveman lawyer movie if SNL decided to make it after Phil Hartman died. Like, that's what he looks like. - He looks like Phil Hartman today. All right, what's next? - I didn't answer that. - You didn't answer that. - You're gonna read it again. We went off, we went to Phil. - Jesus Christ. All right, never trust cops. Hashtag, he was sexy though. - Not the only horny comment about time really Jones, by the way, it was very weird to read those. - They made it all the way to the end of the movie. So I'm gonna give it, this is a five. That is correct. - All right, Sarah, you ready? - All right, as a child, I always told my parents, I wanted to be a photographer when I grew up. This is exactly what I had in mind. (laughing) - Ooh, I think I am going to go five stars out this 'cause it seems like they had a nice time. - That is a five. (bell dings) - All right. - All right, Andrew. You're getting, gotta keep up. Don't let the daily brutal murders of your closest associates that you physically witness, though, let's keep you from keeping on, keeping on. - Keep it on. - Keep it on. - So I wrote this drunk, because there is a typo in it that I did not put in. (laughing) - I'm gonna, oh yeah, I should say, it's not closest, that is me editorializing, it is close, I'm. - I'm so see. - Close, I am, see that's important. I need to know that. That means that they put even less effort into their comment. I'm gonna say this is a one. - That is correct, Andrew. - Okay. - So far, we're on a roll here. - We're on a roll. Are you ready Sarah? - Yep. - Further evidence that Tommy Lee Jones was born a 45 year old man. - There it is, oh my God. (laughing) - I had that in the pocket. - He just said. - Man, I guess I'm gonna go one star here because it does feel like a dig. - That is a one. (bell dings) - All right, Andrew. The old gaze introduced me to this. - The old gaze. - The old gaze. - Well, you got the female gaze, the male gaze. These are the old gaze. - The old gaze. - The old gaze. - I thought female gaze was a little bit. - They can be wise or dumb, so you can go. either direction. Okay, so the old Gays introduced me to this. I understand that because I used to work with an old Gay and they love these kind of fucking movies like they absolutely love this type of shit. It's wait wait wait pause the one other kind of movies which put in this category like Gays like he used to always like describe movies and I could ever remember the title and then he also like stuff like Sunraw and like weird weird fucking music groups. What's the one where they're like eyeballs with top hats he loved that whatever somebody in the somebody in the comments knows. No, they don't they do they do. This is a this a five. Yeah, it is. I'm just something we might have all the makings of a perfect game here. Residence. No, it is the residents. Is it the resident I believe I will the top hats group. Yeah, that was them you love them. He was like you got to listen to these guys and I was like I have they're weird. I see his Instagram sometimes it's like me and your 50 year old dad like during the day and it's just two people talking at work like someone like in their 20s and was like 50. Their website was made in the 90s and is not been updated in God bless them. The residents. There you go. All right. All right. That's the hardest I've left in months. I'm going to say one star, but I would say the same thing with a this is a gentleman's three for me. We have a perfect game. Great job, everyone. Everyone's a loser and a winner. We all won was we all we all labor was. Do we think that this could be remade like we were talking a little bit beforehand about how this could have been done in the early 2000s when they were remaking every horror film anyone's ever heard of. But let's just say if they were trying to make it today, would there be a director or creative that is behind it that would kind of get you interested. So I think if they remade it, I would want them to change the ending a lot and like remove the whole like concept with the multiple personalities and everything. I just think that that was so shoehorned in at the last second and not set up at all properly through the rest of the fucking movie. But I think you could remake it today. I think you could there's a good version of this movie like that exists for sure. And you know what movie I was thinking of and it's completely off the handle and not related at all. Malignant. Yeah, that's it. Remember you want to give this to James Wan. Well, remember Malignant, they they would show the kills like in the person was like seeing them through the killer's eyes and like you didn't know why. And then it turns out there's like a fucking insane twist as to why that is. But go watch Malignant. I was just thinking about that. So of like this concept you could do this concept that can work. Is Malignant just the remake of Isla more no absolutely not I would be very interested in Gabriel's fashion photography career though. It's really like way too erotic for where he is in life. Everyone's backwards you're wearing a closed backwards. Your hair is backwards. You don't need faces. Okay, I want her hair it like this fully in front of her face. But sir, you can't see her eyes. Yes, it's the point. It's the fur coat flashing, but it's just butts. Actually, the original question Sarah, have you thought of any artist that you think would be interesting to remake eyes of Laura Mars or to take it somewhere. That is a really good question. I think they're I would be interested in a having a woman directed maybe a woman from the fashion sphere actually I've been thinking a lot about I think it's Patrick Collins whose photography was depending on who you talk to the inspiration for euphoria or stolen for euphoria. I think that that kind of lens would be really interesting if you want to keep it in the fashion space, which I think is cool. I think that the there's a lot to talk about in terms of the body as trend within this because you think about the 70s era and kind of this hyper violent society. We're talking about in 70s New York, especially late 70s New York. I think there's also a lot of opportunity for anybody who's got a bunch of little guys because this is this is a film that is populated by little guys and there's such a nice community of people around Laura you hate to see them killed because they're so fun to hang out with. So anybody could handle you know a bunch of little guys put Fiona Dorif in it though yes yes 100% get an old gated direct for the Brad Dorif of it all. Yeah. What if we got look at what a needle. Oh yeah. He did his a spirit. He does the way around shallow kind of I feel like the spirit is one of those ones where it's it's the way that people. I don't know if that's shallow exactly but it's mood mood wise yes his superior though is definitely more. No it is not definitely not which he and good I think his the spirit is better than the original but that's a. That is a hot take I yeah I don't think I like our gentle 100% that the time and I'm pretty sure the only Argento film Andrews ever see is the fan of the opera. Oh yeah oh god not that one the spirit or ribs deep red I like um you got to watch opera still bird with the crystal plumage that would be very much in the mode of this film. Those that is my short that is all of the Argento films I think I would recommend I'd be interested to see more because the the fandom of the opera was not good but it was interesting. I remember it which I can't say for most of the things we watched for musicals of cheese. Good they were bringing back. And you can you tell me one thing about the musical hair because Sarah was in hair so um don't they were the big wig. I think it's all about kind of lingus that's true that's all I was here the one where they sing about oh my god the sunshine is that hair yes it's the song from 40 year old virgin yes. Yeah yeah okay the radio the sunshine. That's all he latched on to from that musical the most important musicals of the 20th century and that's it so did you do the film for the podcast we did not we found a lot of no the film is interesting we will definitely do it on the revivers of the podcast because you know that was me those for been right yeah it's they mess with the plot pretty heavily it's kind of like plot I mean well hey it's kind of like cabaret where it's like things are so different could you even consider this the same show yeah I also don't like the cabaret movie I know people I like the cab I like the cabaret movie it's fine it's fine I just I I have done too close to that original musical to have an objective opinion about that that's fair but back to eyes of Laura Mars any other big thoughts that you guys are having about this because really I my thought is like the potential of it fine finds me more compelling constantly returning to it rather than if it were properly great there like I've watched this more often than I've watched properly great films because I'm held by the potential I feel like there's a short list of things that really stick with me like that and this is one of them where you just come back to it because in memory especially if you get some distance from it you kind of only remember the good parts and then maybe like the really bad parts so when you revisit it's kind of the shoe leather of like oh yeah that party I remember them switching clothes and Laura leaving the party and her manager slash friend do it having the little drag moment that's kind of fun but the the all of the things about the party all of the inhabitants of the world that's the thing where you kind of come back to and it's like it's I would hate to call this a comfort watch because I think that would say bad things about the way that my brain functions but there is something to that it is cozy it reminds me a lot of like a murder she wrote episodes more than a proper horror film like a little more tits than a murder she wrote us a lot more tits than a mercy wrote yeah we did not bring up the most attractive man alive raw Julia at all like we didn't bring him off to say about Raujuli in this movie he looks so good he can wear the fuck out of a turtle neck yeah I mean it makes sense that if you're alcoholic writer ex husband is Raujuli he is just going from friend to friend in your friend group yeah I she doesn't seem shocked by that really and I don't think anyone would be although we've relatively it was my ex husband I'd be totally fine with that I'd be like I get it like it's fine yeah but I also I'd be like how can I top that how can I do better than that Tommy Lee Jones that you're right finally yeah yeah that will top very got some Raujuli yeah you've got a scruffy little Brad Dorriff right there though he's so cute with his playing car so cute in this movie yeah was this before after his Oscar nominations I believe it was after I'm gonna check no this is right before okay okay because I know for a ragtime weirdly I know fade done away this is like the room for his movie right after winning for network so yes this was like she's on the hot street so she did that man networks another one that I wish I loved more I've watched that so many times and I'm like it's fine but I also get that in broadcast news confused my head those are two films with very different vibes you and my dad have that in common I would this - I'm thinking in my head, would this go up half a star for me if Tommy Lee Jones and Royal Julia swapped roles? Would it just kind of somehow fit for me a little better? - Yes, although I don't know about Royal Julia as a cop. I don't know what that would even feel like. - I don't like that. I don't like Royal Julia as a cop. - I could see it though. Like as a romantic, if we're making this a romance, what Jean Peter seems quite fit to do, that makes more sense. But how does that-- - At least emotionally. - But how's that ending work then? - I think Royal Julia can sell a model on it. - But it also does-- - It's more likely better than Tommy Lee Jones. - But it cancels out the whole like, Royal Julia is dating all my friends for some reason thing. Like why would you date all your friends what 45 year old scruffy caveman Tommy Lee Jones? - You know, money. - In that case, I feel like him shacking up with her agent. You're like, okay, though, if you have the slightly older woman and this like kept problematic boy, that makes sense to me. Like I could see it. - Yeah. - We didn't talk much about Faye Dunnways' performance either. And she's like a woman that is known for going big. She is not always the most subtle actress in the world. Mommy Dearest. - No wire hangers. - Offed. - Offed reference, that is a particularly campy one. But I think she's still in like her Chinatown world with this. Still kind of coming off that Oscar win. Still down to earth. I almost wish she was a little more turned off. - Yeah, I feel like the most interesting acting she does in this movie is when after the double funeral they go, they kind of have their time in the woods, which is a part of the movie I don't like. Why are they in the woods? - She's gotta get away. Gotta get away. - He doesn't wanna be there though. - No, he's just like, I always wanna have sex with this chick but I also go to the woods. - Where are these woods in New York City? - Yeah, they live in New York City. - They're in Central Park. - Yeah, is he showing her how to shoot a gun in Central Park? - Yeah. - You got nowhere somewhere. - The sun's on. - They drive up state three hours. - Three four hours. - Oh God, they're in all the way. - I mean, it's a great place to go up but like you shouldn't drive there casually. - Maybe they're in New Jersey. - They did film in New Jersey. - Oh yeah, they did shoot. - They filmed in New Jersey. They filmed in Jersey City. - They took the ferry across to go shoot guns in the woods 'cause as Hamilton said, everything is legal in New Jersey. - York was a very different time in the 70s. You could probably get away with just firing guns in Central Park. - Probably. (laughing) - You're only just think you casually did on like a Wednesday. - People were fucking in Central Park like on the reg. Like that is 90% of what Central Park was used for in the 70s and 80s. - Man, we should bring that back. Anything else left to say about the eyes of Laura Mars? - Hmm. - I would say there's a lot of just fun supporting performances in this, including for the people that play the models and the one scene like makeup artists and camera assistants. I feel like you get to see a lot of cool texture in terms of how built out this world is, which for the way that the rest of the movie feels, not developed. What is developed are the people. And it's just fun to watch. It's a lot of people who I feel like were just working actors in New York who came out and shot for a day or a couple. And from that aspect, it's fun to watch, plot and production aside. - Now, I don't disagree. I also want to talk a little bit more about Irving Kirschner who has a weird career. It's gonna say that. - That's I think the thing I found the most interesting is that like, Empire Strikes Back wouldn't exist without this and at least not in the form it's in. - Well, John Peterson, rough cut of Empire, then hired him. So George Lucas. That math doesn't add up because Empire comes out two years after I was a war of Mars. - We competed as four shit math and math and math and math. - Not always. - But also, it must have been George Lucas who saw it something. - He saw I was a war of Mars, but also Irving Kirschner was an associate professor at USC when George Lucas went there. So this is kind of, and was a juror when THX 1138, the short film won the college prize. So they had been known each other. And I think George Lucas wanted some and he thought he could control a little bit, but failed too. But after after I was a war of Mars and Empire Strikes Back, he did a James Bond film, a Sean Connery James Bond film. I think that's right after the George Lays and B nonsense. - Yep. - And Sean Connery's coming back. - Yeah, it was the Connery returns to the franchise, which you're getting that Connery bond, but in the 80s, it's a very different mode for. - Did you, I've not seen it and I take it, you're more of a bond person I am. How is that film never seen ever again? - I really couldn't tell you. Most, I feel like all of the bonds are things that I watched on AMC back when I was like 12. So they all kind of meld together. I don't think that that was necessarily one of the standout ones, but I do think it does kind of have the stylish feeling that we get from my war of Mars in terms of. It's not quite that 60s kitschy bond anymore. You're getting more into trying to blend that mode with a more modern action movie. Also, it's not considered an official bond film 'cause it was produced by Ian. So it's kind of an offshoot of the series. - Yeah, the broccoli's weren't involved or whatever. - Yeah, the broccoli's were involved in the production of this one. It's a weird one. - Where we consider George Lays and B1 movie, Australia man, good. But then after that, we have Robocop 2, which is certainly a picture. I have seen that in It's Wild. - It's a massive piece. - I would not call it good, but I would definitely call it entertaining. - It's Robocop again, but like not. - Without a, without a deft hand behind it. So is Empire Strikes Back literally just the kind of one time he really came up to bat and ax-delly hit way out of his class. 'Cause I, looking at all the films that are proceeding that, dating all the way back to the '50s, none of them have really had a life. - I mean, just, I don't know, but based on what I see, yes, this is just, that was his big hit. I don't know. He seems like a weird character to me. - Yeah, it's kind of hard to square the developments of the Star Wars world from Empire. 'Cause you think about, okay, so some of this is established film language, you can't really mess with it that much, 'cause these are the things that are in a Star War, now. But you've got all the stuff with Hoth, you get more. I do think there were a lot of things that happened with that second film that were things the effects guys had been working on. And we're like, wouldn't it be cool if we did this? We had thought of an idea for this and we had to cut it from the last one. So there may have been more hands on the production, some of those bigger set pieces from Empire. And not to be this guy, but what if it really was George Lucas' hand guiding this? I know we like to discredit George Lucas' involvement with those films as much as possible, or maybe like other producer Gary Kurtz who was involved with the first two, and then was ceremoniously kicked out of Star Wars forever. I maybe, maybe Irving Kurtzner just needed a good producer to kick him in the ass, and it obviously was not John Peters. - Yeah. I mean, I imagine at least me at the time, me on that set, it's from what I know working on a Star Wars movie back then, it was very much a team process of figuring out as a crew what to do. And on the Laura Mars, it's John Peters breathing down your fucking net to make the movie he wants to make. And it's like, how much create a freedom can I input on here? Like, I can't really express myself. I'm making a John Peters movie. So maybe he felt stuck in a box in that way. - Fair enough, but last question before he fully wrap up. This was supposed to be John Carpenter's real big leap into real filmmaking instead of assault on precinct 13. What would this have looked like if John Carpenter directed it and do you think he would have taken John Peters pushing and prodding at him in the same way that Irving Kurtzner would have? Would this have been the new Halloween? - This would not. - Or somebody's watching me. - I don't think this would have been the new Halloween. 100%. - I think Halloween is just a simple story so it captured a bigger audience. This one is like a commentary about blah, blah, blah. And like it would have stayed that way. Peter's involved. So also women, you know, the evening something around women back then is kind of a tough sell. - Yeah, I do feel like John Carpenter is at least better at making women be friends with each other. - Yes, there is a little bit. And I do wonder if some of those relationships as they are in fragments are kind of leftover from his version of the script. We also often talked about the Stradoc's guy was involved with one of the rewrites. So that might be where some of these things come from. But yeah, I think a Carpenter, Isaac Laura Mars would have been, you still will have that population of weird little guys that's kind of his specialty is having a bunch of different characters where you feel like you do have good suspects. Thinking about some of his other films, like it's especially going from Dark Star to Pre-Sanked in that era. He's still pretty decent at writing a group of people who are kind of trying to accomplish a goal. But I think you would probably drop the romance either entirely or down to something very minimal. And I think those, the sequences that he has described would be a lot scarier. They would probably be a little more disorienting and a little more experimental, especially this early. in his career, but we see that killer perspective with Michael in the beginning of Halloween. So he did reuse that idea, and maybe he fine-tuned it a little bit. - Mm-hmm. - 'Cause the idea of something that you could only see now with VR, and seeing your surroundings from another perspective. That's interesting, but I wonder if it would have been kind of tedious to watch, depending on how long it went on. - Yeah. - But also the soundtrack would rip. - Oh, the soundtrack would be incredible. Would that Barbarale Strysanne song still be in there? What we still-- - Well, it depends on if they change producers or not, 'cause it seems like that's why I said it. - Yeah, if John Bears is involved, it's still there. - Oh. - Mm-hmm. Well, let's wrap this up. What is our overall thoughts on Eyes of Laura Mars and our cheese ratings, Andrew, want you start us off? - Sure. It's a weird little movie. I think that there's a lot of interesting ideas. I like some of the stuff. I think the stuff I like the best is big pictures stuff. The premise, I like the idea of trying to tie in that premise with the idea of violent photography, 'cause those two things go together like the first seeing the kills, and then her taking pictures of provocative scenes, those tie together very well, but it doesn't feel like they'd end up doing anything with it in the end. And the ending, I think, just trash, and that just needs to get changed entirely. I'm gonna give it Lando Lake's Italian blend cheese. - All righty. - Liz, you're up next. - I find it, it's gonna be interesting, but I also find movies that are kind of weird and going for something, but failing upward, more interesting than an actual really good movie sometimes. Like, sometimes you see to watch my old trash, just have some entertainment. So this is very mild trash. I see why it has a cult following now, but I also wish it was a John Carpenter cult following, so it was an actual good movie that got re-evaluated, not a mid-movie that people kind of like to laugh at. - Mm-hmm. - I was like, "I can't unsee Tommy Lee Jones's "frozen, unfrozen caveman lawyer." I'm just thinking about that now. Ugh. So I'd say give it a watch just to live the experience. I want to reflect on and maybe watch it again with someone else. Maybe see what they think too. Do like a group watch situation. I'd be fun to watch with some friends. I want to give it prison cheese, which people making prison on TikTok. I looked at a-- - Biglet prisoners have-- - Yeah, that's a trend in TikTok of prison recipes of people actually in prison. - Oh my goodness, it's not gonna follow anything. - It's not gonna, anything at a prison man. - All right, Sarah, what about you? What is your overall thoughts and your cheese rating? - I feel like my cinematic taste is just templed in the rat. (laughing) It's good, it's bad, it's garbage, I'll watch it. I might not love it, but I can find the tasty morsels and mulls. This one, I think there's a lot of different flavors going on. So I would go with a Chipotle espresso cheddar, which is three things that could go together in different combinations, but they just kind of don't work. It is a real cheese. - It sounds real. - It's all flavors that I like separately, but somehow together, it just doesn't work. (laughing) - Fair enough, and you great, great immediate jump to what the cheese rating means 10 out of 10 points. No, like, uh, uh, uh, uh, stare it away. I think this film's great. I, and I say that with no Paul the Fires, and be like, it's almost great. No, I think it's great, I think it's fun. I enjoy it, I think it's like perfect trash. I am giving it a not a children's book called The Ordinary Shees by David Dunnoey, Jr. - Cute. - The Ordinary Shees. - Or it's more than just an ordinary cheese. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. Please promote your content and where people can find you and your incredible work. - Oh boy. Well, I am rejoining my website, so don't look for me there, but I have done a lot of work with a team out of Detroit, called 52 Scripts, who compete in the 48 hour film project, and we've had a lot of success there. So we have a YouTube channel that you can look up. 52 Scripts would bring it up. You can also look for a film that I'm particularly proud of, it's called A Change of Scene. And so these are all shorts that you make in 48 hours for first word on the page, so it's final edit. So it's a fun competition, but there will be more stuff coming in the future. Secret Project. - Secret Projects. - Some of you guys are doing it again. And yes, you and I got Secret Projects, Secret Project. Yes, please check out Sarah's work. A Change of Scene is incredible. We've worked together on projects that are not as good, but yes, I'm very grateful for your friendship, Sarah, and that you're willing to talk film and make films with me. I'm very grateful for you. All right, now we gotta figure out what we're covering next week. And that means we gotta bring in the wheel. - Oh, me. - Here guys. - It's there it is. - Bring it on there. - It's next to Jess. It's next to Jess. - Oh, yeah, yeah, here it is. It's coming on in. Oh my gosh. - Oh my gosh. - Look at that. - Wow. There's only three options. We have three episodes left. Any predictions. - Oh boy. Oh boy. - All right, here it goes. They look at it go. That's sure as a wheel. Sarah, are you impressed by the fact that we have the budget for this? - Yeah. - Yeah, I'm surprised at how large it is. We would broke for this. - Nickel forever time I heard that. - I'm curious if you can. - Of course he would say that. And look at that. Next week we will be covering one of Liz choices and the last Liz choice. Oh my goodness. This is how we're wrapping it up for Liz. We will be covering the Heath Ledger Julia Styles vehicle. 10 things I hate about you. - That's delightful. - I am psyched. - We all need more Shakespeare teen adaptations. - That's what's missing from a modern day. - Well, it depends who's making it. But yeah. - Sarah, do you have any thoughts about 10 things that I hate about you? - Oh yeah. I think that that dancing on the table legitimately got Julia Styles the role in Save the Last Dance. - I think it did, yeah. - That's worth thinking about when you revisited. - Yeah. - You mean the most cringed dance scene I've ever seen? It's thanks to this movie. - Yep. - The Theroux. - Man. - I also think that because of that, we now have like the cringed song and dance scenes. I had to sit through it off campus. So thank you. - It's like when you think about the reason that Jack really Haley got cast as Freddie Krueger was because the directors watched Watchmen and really liked his Rorschach. Really makes you rethink it. They weren't big bad news bears fans? - No, they weren't. No, they just like Rorschach. I get-- - Oh, what was that bike movie he was in? Oh, I don't know. - What is that bicycle movie? The Jack Baby Jack Earl Haley was in. Oh my God. My research skills are failing me today. - No, I'm literally typing in baby Jack Earl Haley. - But it's also like breaking away. - Breaking away. - Breaking away. - I only break it up because I was at a restaurant in Chicago within the last month. And every TV is playing breaking away. And I'm like, oh, it's weird that that's just playing. Do they have like AMC on? And then the movie ends and the movie starts again. And I'm like, that's interesting. And then I go to the bathroom. And there's just memorabilia from the movie breaking away all over the walls. And I'm like, am I in a breaking away theme to tell you the restaurant right now? (laughing) And yes, and everything in the bathroom is themed to that movie. - So you're saying we should open a bad news bears themed restaurant now based on that idea. - Or maybe a baby just a watchman themed restaurant, like a Mediterranean watchman theme. Jack Earl Haley. - Nothing like a Greek salad while you look at a raw shack on the wall. Just sad Patrick Wilson sex. - Yeah. - Very sad Patrick Wilson sex. - It's a happy Patrick Wilson sex. I feel like he's always the person getting cooked or the lesser in every movie. - Mm. It's good boy. - Is there an extended edition of the conjuring? - Maybe. - He's a Christian. They only have boring sex. And also the real guy had sex with a teenage girl that he was driving around on a school bus. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Those movies are fiction. - On that note, we will see you next week. (laughing) Bye everyone. - Bye. - Bye. - Wow, we're a classy show here. (upbeat music) - The Cheese Wheel podcast is hosted by Jesse McNally, Andrew DeWolf and Elizabeth Eston. Our executive producer is Jesse McNally and our creative producer is Elizabeth Eston. The show is mixed and edited by Jesse McNally. Our theme song was composed by Andrew DeWolf and the artwork was designed by J.R.L. Studios. Our promotional images are created by Elizabeth Eston. Our keeper, the cheese is the one and only Juliet Antonio. To catch up on all past episodes, including all 375 episodes of musicals with cheese, visit bpn.fm/cheese. That's bpn.fm/cheese. (upbeat music) - Can you identify an alphabet just from her defying gravity war cry? Can you name every actress in the wicket to waitress pipeline? Or just the phrase, which switch mean anything to you? Well then, goodness. My name's Quincy and my name's Kevin and we're the host of Sentimental Men. We're here to talk and maybe scream about our favorite women in musical theater, the witches of wicket. So if spending a Friday night in a no good deed rabbit hole on YouTube sounds like here I do. of a good time, then Sentimental Men is the podcast for you. And with guests like Jessica Vosk, Lucy Jones, and Stephanie J. Block, chances are we've already got an episode with your favorite Elphaba. Org Linda, like Laura Belbundi, Brittany Johnson, and Mackenzie Kurtz. So pause your riff compilations, put down your copy of the Grimory, and give Sentimental Men a listen. You can find us on the Broadway podcast network, or wherever you listen to podcasts.