Episode 28: Joe Rubin Taught Safety First in His Health Classes: Here's What He Thought

Welcome to Drugs and Stuff, a podcast from the Drug Policy Alliance. Hi, and welcome to another episode of Drugs and Stuff. I'm your host for today, Gabriella Miaris. On our last short episode, I sat down with my colleague Sasha Simon to talk about Safety First, DPA's new drug education curriculum for 9th and 10th graders that's rooted in harm reduction. Since the Safety First curriculum was released for free on our website, it's been downloaded over 700 times. And just as you'd expect with any new program, we've gotten a lot of questions about what this actually looks like in the classroom. Well, Sasha sat down with San Francisco Public School teacher Joe Rubin, who taught Safety First in his health classes to get an insider perspective on how harm reduction-based drug education works for teachers, students, and even parents. Let's listen in. So, Joe, how long have you been a teacher? What grades have you taught and what have you taught? Oh, okay. It's a long answer. So I've been teaching since I got out of college. I'm kind of old now. So I've been teaching 36 years. Started with preschool and I worked my way up through elementary. I did one year of elementary and it was the hardest thing I've ever done. Then I did many years of middle school, taught science. All different grade levels, but always science. And I've been teaching high school now for the last 9 years. One day I'll be college. Yeah. Yeah. Would you still want to keep teaching science and health? Always. Always. Health is my favorite. Why is it your favorite? Well, because it's exactly where students, well, first of all, every adult wants to learn about health. So it's nothing surprising about that, but it's exactly where students want the information. They appreciate it. Get a lot of love for it. Yeah. Yeah. Because they want to know how to take care of themselves, right? Who doesn't? Who doesn't? And, you know, kids want to be independent. They want to mature. They want to grow. And they want to, you know, understand what the responsibilities of adulthood and taking care of yourself and having the information to do so is key. It's a lifelong process. I don't think anyone's ever done learning about health. So it's a great start. And the kids really appreciate it. You know, Joe won't say it, but he's that teacher. He has over 30 years of experience teaching. He is that teacher that wears a suit every day to school. He shakes every student's hand as they walk into his classroom. He's amazing. He's the one that you wish you had. He's the one you see, you know, in the lifetime movies, who's amazing. And he's absolutely incredible. Oh, well, thank you. I don't know if I deserve all that, but I try. I'm only talking facts, Joe. So we know how lucky we are to have you. Your students know how lucky they are to have you. And that's something that they told us through our pilot is that they really appreciate you as a health teacher. So thank you on our behalf and on theirs too. You're making me blush. I'm glad we can't see this. Good. Good, good, good. So tell us a bit. How do you feel about the drug education curricula that you've taught in the past? It's been problematic at best. So I can't say that I've always taught it, which probably get me a lot of trouble if people knew that. And the stuff that was offered to us is basically just an abstinence only approach. It's kind of like saying, you don't really need to teach people any facts or information about drugs as long as you tell them, don't do it. So we spend a lot of time telling people don't do drugs, but unfortunately every kid that cuts class and wants to walk in and make a joke in your class will open the door and say, OK, kids, don't do drugs. And half of them are doing drugs. And they're basically just thinking about, well, is this really, I don't know, I feel like they're mocking us, but they're right to mock us because we're teaching them absolutely nothing. So I wasn't really for that. But I was fortunate enough to have access to someone who came in just to talk about marijuana only. His name was Ralph Cantor. And he would come in and explain kind of how the brain science was going and what's the job of young people is basically to find out what naturally fires off dopamine for you at this age. And that's been the message that we've been teaching for a while, but based on our own materials, not based on stuff that's been handed to us. And so how does that compare? How does the old materials you've been using compared to using safety first in your classroom? Safety first kind of was a very mind expanding thing, a thing to pile it. So I had to, as a non drug user, I don't know that much personal, have much personal contact with it, but it gave me all kinds of techniques to share with students that made them feel powerful, that made them feel like they could do stuff not only to help themselves, but to help other people. And I really love the fact that we look at our young people not as a problem to be solved, but as a potential hero, as a potential person that can do beautiful things in the world. And so that's the way we approached it. And it just really opened up lots of conversation. It was very non-judgmental, which often in the past, students would be afraid to come forward and talk about issues with either their own or family drug use. And this just made it so we could process together. I just thought it was great. And as much as I wasn't complying with the mandated abstinence only drug education, the safety first really opened up a lot of new doors, a lot of new avenues for us. I appreciate that. And one of the things that I really appreciate about the curriculum is that it has teenagers talk to each other and have conversations with each other. And they are the ones that they're most likely to do drugs with, not an adult. And so I think it's great modeling and it's a great ability to be able to practice being honest and open with each other, putting each other in the recovery position and being in that practice. And I wonder as your teacher, what value do you think it has to be able to have these type of dialogues with your students? One of the big reasons I teach health is because I really believe that it's the things that you don't talk about that have the potential to harm you. The main thing is if you can talk about it, you take power over it, you make it so that it's something you can learn about, something you can expand on. And we all have experiences that we can learn from. Everyone's valuable in a classroom. It's not just me talking, everybody's going to learn from me. They have to learn from each other. It's part of what you have to do. Otherwise it could just be home, you know, why come to school, like you sit at home, look on a computer and yeah, same information is there, but it's not nearly as rich. They need to be able to talk to each other. It makes a big difference. That is a great point. That's a great point. You know, and I'm wondering because the drug policy alliance is not the only organization that wants to provide educational info about drugs to teachers at all. So can you speak about other drug education materials that you've been offered as a teacher? Well, not only offered our school accepted, which kind of sets me, but there's this big push or maybe there was, I don't know if it still is, but with drug-free world is the organization. And they make free materials available to educators and we're all like, wow, free, why not? As we're always spending our own money for things and it's kind of a nice idea. It turns out that when you do the research though, that drug-free world is the church of Scientology and there's no requirement that any of their materials be accurate or scientific based. And I saw that in their video. They have videos, of course, we all want videos for our classroom. So some of their videos were just over the top. In my way. So you see this video of this girl screaming and she's got a hatchet in her hand and she's chopping down the door while her parents are cowering on the other side of the door. And all of that's happening and this is the result of I don't know, bath salts, whatever the drug of the day is. It's kind of like a, I don't know, the way they do misinformation about all these drugs. I had students coming in and tell me, oh, bath salts make you eat somebody's face off, you know? Wow. And this is, it sounds like a bunch of kids making stories is what they're, what they're basing their information on. So it's very unscientific. It's very shrill. It's very, don't do have drugs ever. This is the worst thing you can ever do. And of course, for kids who have family members that are already doing that, are they like, okay, what I'm going to do is just say I hate my family and now I'll be healthy. Right? And that's not something we should be asking students to do at all. It sounds like a kind of current reframativeness. Yeah. Well, I would say even worse in some ways. I mean, it sounds worse, but it definitely sounds typical, you know, the idea that you would go into this dangerous kind of hysteria by using a drug. And, you know, we know that all, not all drug use is safe. We do know that, but dangerous hysteria to the point that you want to attack your, attack your love. Also, people find out your love. And then what if what value does anything else you you say have after you've lied to people about that? That's not worth anything If if we want to be Good role models for young people we have to tell truth and there's just just all there is to it But you know, it's a bit interesting, Joe and a little disappointing is that you know even us as adults I'm in my 30s. I'm a dare baby You know before my time at DPA. I didn't have proper modeling for how to I knew that all I had was the abstinence only approach All uses abuse there. They're just both complete Completed together and so I didn't have the language or you know any kind of schema with which to or appropriately Interpret you know what might be problematic drug use or not problematic drug use because I don't have the language Nobody gave that to me before it's right and so I think it's really interesting what you're talking about in terms of the Materials that continue to be produced by adults that have also received this type of messaging and also the people who are Teaching it have also had that same kind of messaging and so I think Again, I had to overcome my own biases to deal with this and that's important that we we examine that we don't just sit there and accept blindly Scientology materials that don't Have a basis in fact So let me let me piggyback on that question. Do you feel like folks? Adults are ready to change the paradigm to really reconsider a new way that we could Educate each other about drugs and also take care of each other around drugs and drug use Ready or not we have to I mean it's not really about us when we go on education where they're for the students yeah You can see that there's a crisis in the country that there's people dying of overdoses and misinformation is not helping So we really need to be able to have that conversation and You know if it's painful as painful, but I don't care. I do it. That's so real. That's so real I mean it was it was very again I immediately became aware of my own biases Once I started in this position and immediately had no qualms with dropping them because at the end of the day we need to save lives We need to make sure we're serving our children and if you really look at where the other information is coming from you start to notice Well actually one of the things I loved about the curriculum Was that it gave students tools for deciding what's real and what's not? There's a lot of misinformation out there and so instead of just accepting things just because someone offers it to you free Like the church of Scientology, which by the way, they don't tell you that there that's who it is. They're very hidden but You also get to to Analyze is it true? It does this makes sense Basically the idea is that you get to check your sources and make sure that they're accurate And I really like that about the curriculum It is where we're trusting kids to think we're teaching them how to think well for themselves But we're trusting them to do it and they need that and I think that's important now more than ever because we have so many advances in technology and we also have a lot of developments in in terms of You know substances that are available one of the reasons overdose is the leading cause of death under the age of 50 in the US Is that we now have this presence of fentanyl right and illegal drug supplies and it's not just showing up and just opioids anymore You you find it in cocaine and that is a new development right on the drug users scene. That's a new development also vaping Right everything is available everything is available now Nobody have that kind of access at all and so a lot of a lot of times I get asked especially by harm reductionists How are you teaching kids about vaping? There's a hysteria around it. What are you telling them about nicotine and You know, I'm real with them about the fact that adults haven't settled on this issue themselves and be honest about that I'm not gonna tell a kid this is what the truth is or this is what you should think Like you said we give them the tools to figure it out for themselves because we can only assume that Technology is going to continue to advance beyond this point and life will continue to evolve and be different So it's a lifelong skill absolutely until lifelong skill and telling people we've got it all figured out is just obviously a lie And they see right through that Absolutely as they can tell by the Continuously changing laws around vaping and who can have a vaporizer who can not who can buy it where you can buy it that It's like it blows in the wind You can smell it blowing in the wind Joe one of the things that one of the many things that are unique about you is that you've never done a single drug in your life Never even a drop of alcohol and I wouldn't say that I try to drop a alcohol And then moved on I did was not impressed But I can speak to that a little bit so you know I grew up a 60s child. This shows my age but For me it was more about if I wanted to be effective in making the world a better place I needed to not be high and hung over that's just the way I saw it And so that's why I kind of stayed away. I just felt like it was a distraction from what I really wanted to do So that sense of purpose was important for me and it kept me away from stuff And of course there was always the biases that I picked up from family members, you know had some people in the family that weren't dealing well with substances and so all those things kind of come together and Made me who I am but but it's important then to not say that just because I chose a certain path that everybody has to choose the same path I think it was really important again to just be open and I had this story I think I told it the thing you want me to tell it again that just say no mentality story. Please do So this is a strange story but it actually happened to me and it kind of shaped my thinking around this but I grew up with kind of in close quarters with my parents and They never put a lock on their bedroom door because I don't know either they couldn't afford it or they didn't know how to do it I don't know what it was but they were very clear with me. They said look When we have this sign on the door they put a do not disturb sign which they had stolen from some hotel They say when we put this sign on the door, we do not want to be disturbed So I was like okay, I get it and then they went into a lot of detail like you're having a problem with your sister Don't come to us right at that moment. That's a bad time. Don't do it So my comes to the door rings the doorbell wants to speak to us. We are not available All right, I want you to be clear, you know yell for us, you know They taught me just say no really well. It was and I had that in my eyes. I understood I learned it. I was good So I got that idea and I was like okay, I never disturb them and then one day We got a phone call and they wanted to speak to my father and I said I'm sorry my father is not available I felt I'm doing this right look at me because student And they said well, I'm sorry you got to get your father on the phone right now I said no, but he's not available said no his father's dying. This is his last chance to speak to him. You must Get him on the phone right now And at that moment I figured okay, I got to break this rule because just say no It's not working in this moment. I have to I have to break the rule but did I do the logical thing of knocking on the door No, did I call through the door? No, I just Open the door and walk right in And there my parents were having sex and feeling really embarrassed and I'm like walking in and kind of shield my eyes I had no harm reduction Education at all. I had never once thought about what would happen if I had to do this thing that they had told me not to do and because of that and being flustered and in the moment and being pressured I did exactly the wrong thing and I just wonder How many people have had that experience because they just weren't prepared they weren't taught they weren't they never had a chance to think about Well, if I have to break this rule, what's the best way to do it? And so I want them to think about all the possibilities I want them to have the whole range of what could happen and what Ways to make it so that it's less harmful That's a great point. I think that is a great point and a great comparison Because all this hammering down don't do it don't do it don't do it You start to believe that that's the only way to see things and so when your mind and your actions have to Necessarily expand and broaden and in the moment you have to make a choice It might be messed up right right? It can very easily be messed up So I think that's a great great comparison Also, you know one comparison and this is not getting back to your parents, but the fact that we're both health teachers and especially in the midst and at the height of the HIV and AIDS crisis in the 90s in the US There was this huge push for abstinence only education just don't do it just don't do it Just don't teach them about it because then they're gonna do it right? Do you see any parallels between that and drug education exactly the same and You know, I don't really understand who's profiting from this because there's so much money and effort being put into Keeping people just on On the abstinence only so I usually follow the money to figure out where it's coming from but I don't really get this part But it doesn't work and they have ample evidence everywhere that by teaching comprehensive sex ed you actually have better outcomes for young people less teenage pregnancy less HIV less sexually transmitted infection more common use more abstinence they're more likely to wait more abstinence more delayed onset and so all these these outcomes are proven they're scientifically proven and yet there's still people telling people that you can't tell anybody anything about sex other than to say no and spending a lot of time and energy denying a perfectly human part of life which is having sex and they just say well we can do that so here again the abstinence only rears its head again with with drug education and we're seeing people dying in huge numbers based on a lack of information and they refuse to share that information it just it boggles my mind it really does you know some information that I will share and tell me if you experience this in the classroom to but especially with sex ed because I've had more classroom experience with with that is that when you give teens real information they you see their their facial expression start to change their eyes start to change because they're starting to recognize the gravity the weight and the responsibility that it's going to take to make good choices yeah helps them grow up yes you watch them be like hey I want I want you to role play communicating with someone that you don't want to have sex and then you see them get nervous and flustered and it's like well if you can't do it right now where there's nothing at stake what's going to happen in the moment absolutely right and we often put them in these uncomfortable positions to really think about that and if you don't do that what happens is they go on to their in their real relationships whenever they start having them and have absolutely not thought about a damn thing right and what they are left with is all the stereotypes ridiculous stuff they see in the movies and a lot of it's actually abusive unhealthy sexuality and so I think that that it's really important that if we're going to raise our young people into adults we have to prepare them instead of just oh no we can't talk about that not going to work did you see that same kind of response with your students when you taught safety first that kind of oh I need to grow up a little bit completely completely and especially the whole thing you know a lot of kids will joke with with other oh someone so knows knows all about that you know the way I think that the drug reference joke and when we don't respond to it so okay let's go we need that information let's share that it just disarms the whole thing people start stop judging each other and they start really like dealing as adults more more in that adult world it's we're not a little childish thing pointing and calling names anymore now we're like okay let's learn from each other let's help each other you know one of the things that you mentioned earlier is that you had an educator come into your classroom that that talked about the importance of finding things that excite you and that you know produce dopamine one of the most amazing things that I've seen happen when it comes to teen drug use is the example of Iceland and Iceland was able to dramatically reduce their teen drug use rates using a bit of brain science and that they recognize not only to this I may not be using the exact language of the researcher and that researcher better not come for me but you know they recognize that when it when it comes to stress we either decide to kind of amperselves up and confront that right or we might decide to sedate ourselves you know hang back a little bit it's a natural human drive and you know oftentimes we use drugs to make us feel those after those sedated effects so recognizing that they offered more opportunities for young people to be able to experience those things so they made athletics like gymnastics incredibly accessible they would ask teens what do you want to do right with something that would excite you or they made music programs more available so that those were ways that they could experience those heights and heights of achievement as well too right so that they wouldn't be so pushed towards you know wanting to do drugs because they've already have that outlet yeah I agree with all that completely one of the assignments I've added it's not part of safety first yet who knows maybe we'll be maybe but we ask students to think about rehab so if they were to design a rehab program what would they do to design it and what they come up with is alternatives they come up with things you want to replace that addiction with something that also they can become addicted to the healthier and they come up with sports programs and music programs and indoor skydiving and you know you put a big fan on the floor and you blow the air up and you can do indoor skydiving and they they come up with amazing things pet therapy and this and that and basically when we when we're all done and they've all presented their projects and everybody's just like amazed with their creativity we say wouldn't it be nice if we had this before they got addicted yeah what would that be like how preventive would that be and they all kind of like oh yeah so we have we have reasons why people turn to these and well you know I want to be clear the students of my my school I don't know if this is true at all high schools but the students of my school are not using drugs because they feel like partying and having a great time most of them are doing it to self-medicate they're dealing with trauma they're not being treated for that trauma and that the amounts of trauma that that our young people face in our society right now are unreal I sometimes you know I sit there and think to you if that happened to me would I even be able to come to school and here they are dealing with all kinds of stuff from you know seeing family members shot and killed in front of them from dealing with a parent who's been deported just recently from having all kinds of violence in their lives around them everywhere and here they are and they're working hard at stuff and am I going to sit there and judge because they're deciding to use a drug to help them medicate to deal with this now I wish we had other things for them but I kind of understand it but yeah I definitely believe that offering young people more opportunities to find their passion to find what they love to do to let that dopamine go I can't imagine how how the what kind of reduction in is not only does it reduce that need to like try things just for the fun of it but it also helps people deal with trauma to find other things that are beautiful and wonderful in the world one of the things I really value what you just said Joe because I think folks often think of young people as their own kind of class as opposed to they are fully integrated into our society they're with us so if we have immigration laws that might get their parent deported that's a trauma that they bring to the classroom and that's a trauma that we handle as as their caretakers and their teachers and so they often have to navigate their own trauma the trauma of their friends also in the classroom the trauma of their family so trauma is not something that's hidden from them and it's not something that they don't have to navigate and so I think it's amazing and powerful that they also have their own ideas from how to heal from trauma because they know what they want you know they know what they want they just know they're not feeling well I think sometimes they're kind of lost I don't know that they necessarily know what they want but they definitely know that they want to feel better and they they know that this is not right yeah I think trauma is under under recognized yeah and that they're huge implications for not just their mental health but their physical health yeah and there are ways to treat trauma there are definitely things you can do and it includes nutrition it basically it's health right it's nutrition it's exercise it's meditation it's getting enough sleep I mean there's so many different parts to it but you'd be surprised at how few young people have all those things put together in their lives at this moment and there are models for that there are ways we can teach that but again our school seem to be a little dissociated from the actual lives that our young people are dealing with so we're spending lots of time with AP courses teaching you know ancient history and I got nothing against history I like history but sometimes I shouldn't be the priority we need to also teach what's going on for young people right now and give them tools to manage and deliver healthier life absolutely absolutely you know and I think teachers as well I recently read a study and I personally know this to be true that teachers experience a second hand trauma that often comes from you know experiencing the trauma and holding space for young people right and so we often need support we're not disconnected with what's going on with our children at all right at all we don't we don't have that kind of luxury and a question I want to ask you and it's not necessarily trauma related but it's about the support that teachers need usually don't get right and usually don't get right so what value does safety first offer to the modern health educator oh my gosh so before this this program was there I was I was slinging together. pieces of curriculum from wherever I could find it. And again, I'm not the best educated in this topic. So that made a huge difference to have this curriculum. Now, I got to be honest with you, I had to make it my own because the first day I tried to do it like a script and read a word for word and it was still to it and weird and I just wasn't getting across to the students at all. But having a base from which to build and that has really important information that respects young people that cares about what they think and wants them to be able to think for themselves with just an amazing addition to what I felt was already okay. But this was like, wow, now I can feel good about what we're teaching to these young folks. You know, I was going to ask you what value safety first can offer to school districts too, but you kind of touched on that. I'm wondering, what value do you think safety first offers to parents? Absolutely. The parents, I think parents especially are fearful based on the lack of information that they have. What students do when they learn something is they go home and they talk to their families about it one way or the other. And it's really amazing the feedback I get from parents, especially after we've taught this. I mean, I have parents coming to me praising me and thanking me and I feel like, well, it's not me, it's the curriculum. And I learned this stuff from you and the health programs office, but basically the parents absolutely love it and they're scared. They don't know how to approach their kids. They've heard all these these terrible stories. They're on drugs, you know, they're squared, but basically, they like that. They're squared. They're squared, but they they are so scared because it's now their kids and they've heard all these horror stories and maybe some of them have lived through some of them. They want their kids to live a strong healthy life. And when they see that that's what we want to that we have compassion for their children that we love them enough to care about them and teach them the truth and what's real. Yeah. Um, they're just nothing but supportive. And I expected that maybe I would get some some blowback. I got absolutely nothing but positive support from parents. And I got a lot of that. That's beautiful. And I think that's important for people to know. I think oftentimes, I mean, oftentimes people might assume that they might receive some type of rejection for trying to offer this this information, but overwhelmingly across the board, it's been well received. Um, you know, and I really believe that we need a new community model. The end of October was Red Ribbon Week. And I'm not sure if you can't relate. I can't relate. I grew up in New York. I don't know. I'll tell you, I grew up in Texas. Okay. And so I know all about Red Ribbon Week and how much of not just a school community kind of week in spirit building activities type of week it is, but it's also a community building type thing. And I remember wrapping Red Ribbons around the columns at my high school and there would be Red Ribbons along the trees that, you know, were in front of the high school so the local community could be engaged and it's all about a pledge to be drug free. It's all about a pledge to be drug free. And a lot of the messaging that comes with that is that if you value yourself, like drug use or not is symptomatic of how much you value yourself. How much you value yourself. And there's these competitions for who has the best slogan, who has the best poem about being drug free. Right. And you don't want to knock people who really do want to see young people be safe. Right. You don't want to knock that. But I've been through many of Red Ribbon Week. And I don't know nothing from it. No. Right. And also it shames people. So what about that one student who isn't drug free? So is that mean that they don't love themselves? They're not worth anything. Right. What about that student who has people who use drugs in their family? Do they dissociate themselves from their family? So they can participate in Red Ribbon Week. You have to make some type of schism in your mind. So obviously there's those people that they love and care about in their family aren't worth anything or aren't good people. I don't see the value of telling young people that their family's no good. I just don't see how that how you ever hope to be able to educate while you're shaming someone. And of course Red Ribbon Week is not really teaching any particular information anyway. But only to shame people. And you know, to make a parallel to the abstinence only issue. So in places where abstinence only is taught, there's a huge rape culture because only bad people would allow themselves to have sex. So if you allow yourself to do it, then obviously you must be worthy of being raped and mistreated. I think by shaming people we're opening them up to abuse. And I don't think we need to do that for drugs or for sex or anything. That's we need to love our young people. There's no reason not to. And we need to be given permission to love ourselves as opposed to judge ourselves and based on the value of the decisions that we make. And you know, and we all miss out. And we say that to kids, you have to love yourself. But then we practice this other crazy stuff. Yeah. Makes it hard to love yourself when you're being blamed for every decision you make. Absolutely. Absolutely. Some curious, Joe, what is your favorite activity in safety first? I definitely love the advocacy part where you ask students, well here, let's let's look at some drug policies that exist. Let's kind of look at what's going on around the country, that's going on in your city. What's going on in your school? What is the actual way that people are treated when they deal with this stuff? And now I want you to think about it. And I want to say, do you agree with it? Or do you disagree with it? And if you agree, I need to know why. And if you disagree, I need to know what you want it to be instead. And when you do that with students, a lot of them look very confused at first. Like you're asking me what I think. And I'm like, yes, I care what you think. I want to know. And I love that. I just absolutely love when they do think many of them are very insightful. The ones who are not is because they've never been asked what they think about anything ever before. But they understand that this is important. And that this is part of an adult skill. The something you're going to need to do in life is make decisions on what's important and what you think about it because you get to vote, you get to have a say. So I really, I really love that. I mean, there's a lot of things I love about the curriculum, but that is absolutely my favorite. You know, and that's one of my favorite too. You know, and I'm often asked and fairly fair enough, right? You work for the drug policy alliance. Are you trying to teach kids about certain policies? Right? Are you trying to push a certain thing? I love you guys can't see the confused face on on Joe's face right now. But that's not the way that's not the way the curriculum is done. We just engage them with the fact that there are already drug policies that they're being governed by. There's no need to know. You need to know. And how do you feel about it? And that is a completely new concept because as soon as they turn 18, they get to be politically, I mean, they could be politically engaged earlier, but they can vote at 18. Right. And they're already, it's already dictating things that happen to them in their lives, what they can and can't do. And they have actually examples of how people can be involved, even if they're not using drugs, so that they're just near somebody who's using their drug, you know, it does affect people right away. And I've had students, I remember I used to teach chemistry and I had a little project called mystery powders and they were trying to, we had this white powder that they were trying to figure out what was in it. I had, you know, some sugars, some salts, some baking soda, crazy stuff. And one student said, oh, can I bring this home? Well, she was picked up on the way home by police and they thought she had drugs in her bag. And so because she was dark skinned because she was not white, there was an assumption that this, this student's doing something wrong. I don't think what is going on us. So we, we, even from the most innocent of things, we are affected by drug policy and they need to understand that and be able to deal with it and decide, do they, they don't have to accept it. I don't want them to think of the world as this is the way it is and that's just the accepted the way it is because it's not a sign of health to be able to be well adjusted to something that's unhealthy. You know, you need to be able to figure out if something's unhealthy, I want to be a able to change that and I want my students to feel powerful. I want them to know that they can change things. I don't want them to think that it has to be that way. That's powerful. Joe, you are one of the most powerful teachers I've ever met. And it's because you have a powerful spirit, you understand that people should be supported. They should be educated in a way that's respectful and honest and helps them to be able to govern their lives in a way that allows them to have dignity, you know, and allows them to be able to achieve. And it's, it's a beautiful thing to see in you, to have been able to see in the classroom and to also have that reflected back from your students, whether you got to hear it or not, but they let us know that. And so I genuinely thank you for coming on today and for talking to us a bit more about safety first and your experiences as a teacher. It means a lot. Sure. One last thing I want to say to those like teaching is a very demanding full-time occupation. And it makes a big difference to teachers that there are people that share the same values that are actually making curriculum, that are making it so that we can look at that and not have to invent everything on our own. So I also appreciate what you do. So thank you. - Thank you, that was the goal. And so thank you for helping us get it right so that more and more teachers can adopt it too. - Cool. - All right, thank you, Jill. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Thanks so much for listening and we hope that you enjoyed that conversation as much as we did. We'd especially like to thank Joe Rubin for taking time out of a busy schedule to speak with us. If you'd like to learn more about safety first, go to our website, drugpolicy.org/safetyfirst. That's where you can download the entire curriculum for free. And hopefully learn a little more about drugs, drug effects, drug policies. We certainly learned a lot while developing it. Harm reduction is at the heart of safety first. And drug checking is one thing that we talk about several times throughout the curriculum. The importance of checking substances to make sure that they contain what you think they do. Drug reagent test kits are a great way to do this. And dance safe, one of our partner organizations is offering 10% off to all drugs and stuff listeners with the code DPA2019. That's DPA2019 for 10% off of drug reagent checking kits at Dance Safe's website. Thanks again for listening. We welcome any feedback you have about this and other episodes. Tweeted us at Drugs and Stuff DPA. We look forward to hearing from you. And we hope you tune in next time. Drugs and Stuff is brought to you by the Drug Policy Alliance. If you like what you hear on the podcast, do us a favor and rate the show on iTunes. Give it five stars and a nice review. Also, we'd love to hear from you. Use the hashtag #drugsandstuff and check out our website drugpolicy.org to see the other work we do, sign up for our emails and donate. Special thanks to our producer, Katherine Heller, and to the hardworking staff of the Drug Policy Alliance for all of their work. Thanks for listening.