Episode 26: Changing Faces

Hello, this is Bread for it, a podcast dedicated to the thoroughbred Bloodstock industry coming to you by a Bloodstock enthusiast for Bloodstock Enthusiasts. And I am looking forward to giving you more insight into the backbone of horse racing, as I aim to find out more with you in the company of Bloodstock Specialists as to what goes into breeding, from foiling, to rearing, covering, selling and all things in between. So come with me as we find out what makes race horses bread for it. This podcast has brought to you an association with Vivi Shapo, the unique hat brand of Vivi Rulo. Situated in London's chic Maritabone Lane, Vivi Shapo is the place to top off your race day style. Hello and a very happy new year to you. Welcome back to another episode of Bread for it. It is 2026 and I didn't manage to do this on purpose, but it's also episode 26. So it's pretty apt to start on this number. And I welcome you back after a very jam packed festive period, a very cold period as well. So wherever you are in the world, I hope you're surviving your weather. And if you are in the UK like me, you're getting through this very cold patch. But I wanted to begin with the story shaping the bloodstock world as we start a new year. And sadly having to start on a very reflective note with the news coming through just before Christmas of the passing of Shake Muhammad, Abid Al-Mukhtum, a very influential owner and breeder. You won't miss and you won't go one day without seeing those famous yellow and black silks, especially during the flat season. And Shake Muhammad Abid was well known globally. He had a deep passion for racing, exceptional eye for bloodstock. And he had success at the very highest level on the world stage right up until his death. His legacy really stretches beyond just his headline. When he was a formidable breeder and played a pivotal role in shaping the modern thoroughbred, most notably through Debarwi. He of course bred his dam, Zomarada and Debarwi leads the way as one of the most influential stallions in the globe. So the tributes have flooded for him and they really highlighted his achievements, his respect and warmth and his passion for racing. And it's understandably a difficult and uncertain period for the horses that left that are currently in training. There are plenty of horses that are in the UK here, the significant number with the likes of Karl Burke and George Burry, including the leading Gini's Hope Boeco. So now we hear that the word from the Yards is that it's very much business as usual, but I'll be interesting in time whether we'll learn whether the racing operation passes to another family member or potentially folds into good orphan given that Shake Abid was a cousin to Shake Muhammad. So from that moment of reflection, I wanted to turn to the stories that lit up the Christmas period. On the racetrack, the Christmas period gave all of us racing fans one of the most memorable periods and national hunt racing was really in clover. The King George in particular will long live in the memory. Four horses in a line jumping the last, it was a real vintage renewal and a race that just underlined how special the current chasing crop really is. And importantly, show that the British are really fighting back against the Irish. Congratulations to Ben Pauling who scooped the top prize with the jukebox man and a little bit more about him. But before I get to that horse, it was a horse actually away from the King George that really was one of the most inspiring bloodstock stories. As this will ask who won the Grade 2 Desert Orchard Chase for the skeletons, prove that anything can be possible in this game. Because not only did that horse add to the successes and the embarrassment of riches for the skeleton team, it also really outlined their shrewdness in purchasing horses from all areas. He was a horse most overlooked at the Goths horses in training sale last May. He made 11,000 pounds. He came from the James Ewer dispersal that that trainer was retiring. And despite being in 115 rated eight year old with a hurdle and chase win to his name, it seemed that not many wanted him, but Ryan Mann and Dan Sculton went and picked him up. And since then he has won four from four and he looks a real champion chase prospect. He also is a son of the now sadly departed ask who is a son of sadly as well. And ask had a Christmas to remember. He is a horse that had already delivered and maybe not that fashionable for many, especially when he was alive. And it's always the way that Stalin's who pass away don't get to enjoy the successes of their horses while they're alive. But certainly is doing plenty since he's gone with this little ask flying that flag, but it's the aforementioned the jukebox man who's really cementing ask's name as a prolific stallion. As he was the horse of course won the King George and delivered a career defining moment for Breeda Paul Cunningham who was really passionate about using ask as he said to me being a son of sadly as well. And being so commercial in Ireland at the time he was a stallion that made a lot of sense. But Paul Cunningham who I have been in touch with and I want to say a massive congratulations to him again for breeding the jukebox man. Reminded me that from a fall if you wanted the jukebox man and he sold for three thousand euros. And it was because Paul had really brought down the reserve and had to sell at the time. It was 2018 and a time as I mentioned ask wasn't particularly popular but the horse wasn't perfect. And Paul has said that but they did a very good job with correcting him from a fall through the use of their farrier. They were able to really help his front legs but he turned out which many sons of ask did. And that was also an issue that several of the major agents thought when he went through the selling at Goss Tingle Creek sale. After he'd won his point to point for James Doyle. And he sold for seventy thousand pounds a good number but not as much as you'd expect from a King George hero. But it's a reminder that you don't have to be perfect. You can be a bit narrow which the jukebox man was. You can be a little bit incorrect in front but you could still have quality and the ability. And I loved speaking to Paul over the last few days about where the horses come from. River Tay stables in Ireland has produced the likes of Potters Charm who is actually born in the same box as the jukebox man. He's been a year apart and also forward plan for Anthony Honeyball. So it just shows the level of talent that can come from the smaller operations. And I wish Paul Cunningham and his family the best of luck as they continue to follow the jukebox man's story. And hopefully he can fly the flag high for him as a breeder at the gold cup. And elsewhere, Australian stories continue to catch my eye. Australian stories are very accessible in Scottles Barrow stud and summer set. 2000 hounds he stands for had a grade one success with Idaho son winning the form B at Ain't Tree. And then it was really pleasing to see a form of podcast guest Wilkinsy having another wonderful moment during the Christmas period. I'd imagine he roared home Romeo Cullia winning over in Ireland his third grade one. And then also a breeder that I have so much respect for Ken Parkhill. He would have been delighted to see final demand winning over in Ireland as well for Willie Mullinser. A grade one novice chaser with the world that his feet it looks like. So those were some of the highlights for me. I could have added so many to the less. I think her TT Kahlo I could bang on about him to the cows come home. But I am going to do my best to track down his breeders. The Simone's who are based over in France. He is a son of dragon dancer who only covered a handful of mares last year. He is standing at an instantion stud in Durham. And gosh well he's another son of saddle as well. Just a bit like ask. That is doing well on the ground now but later stage he's might be a study and looking from his return of mares. Is either not able to cover that many or is not overly popular. I could only find a handful in the return of mares that went to dragon dancer last year. And he's now private so potentially he's just getting a little bit older. But my goodness is her TT Kahlo really advertising his success as a stallion. But of course the beginning of a new year also means we have to wish a happy birthday to all the horses. He's officially turned a year older for 2026. The first of January means the beginning of the bowling period. So it's exceptionally busy. brings me neatly to my two guests for this episode. People starting the year with genuine momentum, fresh ambition and plenty to look forward to as the new season unfolds. So let's get into it. My first guest of 2026 is a man with big aspirations and excitement for his stud. David Rebvers of Tweenhill's farm has been at the helm for over three decades playing a central role in shaping one of Britain's leading stallion and bloodstock operations. Alongside founding his bloodstock agency in the mid 1990s, he has been responsible for sourcing and managing a really exceptional list of group one performers and those sources have gone on to be stallions, the likes of the late at Rwaring Lion and Kamiko who now stands at the stud. And since 2010, he has also acted as racing and bloodstock advisor to guitar racing. So few people combine global bloodstock experiences such a deep understanding of British breeding like David. And today we're going to talk about stallion strategy and a key new stallion to join the Tweenhill's ranks. And we have a really interesting discussion about the future of British breeding, the challenges that the players and stakeholders involved to really keep British breeding at the top of its game. And we begin by discussing that stallion that they hope will really bring Tweenhill's to the next level. It's king of change and why he could really help develop the outlook for British breeding. Can I begin David by asking about the acuosition, how did the opportunity come about and why did he feel like the right fit for you? Well, happy new year Jess, thanks for the call. I mean basically we were looking at all our meetings going forward. We had a lot of measures that in Kamiko two years running that needed a change. And when I went through the stallion list, it became pretty obvious to me that king of change stood out on what he had achieved. And the fact that he clearly represented I read just value for money. And I can't claim to be a genius on that. Most of the press had taged him as being one of the two best value stallions in Europe. So I dug a little deeper, realised that there was a potential for a deal to be done. So I had to say thank you to Anthony Stride who basically gave up the fair amount of his Christmas holidays chatting to me on the phone trying to get the deal done. So it was one of those things that I never thought had been a position to do. I was remarkably surprised that anybody would sell a horse at that stage of his career having shown quite so much from us. But everything sort of sloshes into place. I discussed it with my partners yesterday and said this might be a once-in-a-lifetime deal. And talking about trying to find a stallion, as you say, a horse that's already been on the roasters at a cup of studs already. Were you looking for a stallion that had already been proven? Or you sort of not really looking for anything and you just thought that this came about? What's been the sort of Modus operando when it came to finding a new stallion for tween hills? Well we're always looking for horses off the track. And we've had quite a few fun enough for majority of the horses that we've stood at tween hills over the last decade or so, been horses that we bought as yearlings for guitar racing. And the roaring lion and chemical being the sort of two best horses. But we have, laterally, obviously the sounds of Marley online so happened, we managed to raise significant sums for that. And I have to say bid very very strongly indeed and we're disappointed not even to make the final three in that. And while I was listening to Giro Calaham's reasons for giving strong prices, he did really hit a note with me. Because when you buy a horse off the track, you never know if he's going to be any good and we all know that only one in ten at best are in Proofers of the Breed. And the truth is that nine out of ten will devalue all the mers that you cover with them. So it was really a case of a hit accord with me. The fact that what we're really trying to do here is increase the value of our Breed Mayor band, not just Makers stallion. And so finally a horse that was proven, is a proven improver of the breed, is became certainly the most defining moment for me. Yeah, because I imagine you're not just now beginning to market him and his physical and his race record, which you do when you begin with a new stallion, but you've got as you say those stats behind him. Remind us what they are because I've seen they've got that, I think it's 13% stakes, winners to runners in 2025. But it's such a small sample, but it's absolutely fabulous. And Kroes said I think it's second to De Barwee. I mean that's quite remarkable with a much smaller number than what Tweenhill's can offer him meds wise. Yes, exactly. So he's just a shade under 14% winners to, sorry, stakes winners to runners. That is basically the best metric to judge a stallion by. Interestingly, his highest rated horse is actually 110 racing boat straight. He doesn't even have black type. So if you consider him as a winner as well, he would even, he'd even blow De Barwee out the water on his percentage of stakes winners to runners. He's a very good two-year-old again with Karl Burke last season who looks like a great horse in racing. And the really exciting thing about him and the real selling point is that you know these are from very, very middling mayors. He has, he's now got a hundred plus yearlings on the ground this year because he had a really strong book of mayors that year which he got through me, me, me, Hall of Landy. And so there's a lot in front of him. People, people breathing to the stallion this year will be selling their yearlings at the same time, so he's got his big cropper three rows on the tracks. So it's a bit of a no-brainer. So in a way, you know, you think back at the likes of the Wutmbassett for example of the world, so you know, had a, had a good number but did very well considering that they were kind of lower level. But do you feel now Tweenhill's can offer in the opportunity? And I'd imagine you're going not just in within Britain, but you're looking outside of this country to find better quality mayors to even improve the stats which have done well considering that as you say, there'd be slightly middling mayors that probably be just looking for a commercial stallion. Yeah, so I mean, we're sending 25 of our own mess as some partners mess. We've got some really good partners in the stallion. You know, I'm absolutely chuffed a bit to have involved in my power modes, become a really, really keen being a breeder and a racer or a sainer. And she's very definitely sending all of our best mess. We've got Stephen Helen, Stephen Becky Helen that many people know as one of the shrewdest judges of blood stuff on the planet. And Steve tells me that he's got seven mers to come. So, you know, when you start adding up the beating right holders that were existing in the horse who were going to allow to stay in and our own, you know, we're already sort of over 60 mers. By the time we've, you know, we haven't even had the horse here three days. So I'm thinking that we are there's a strong possibility that he'll be fully booked by the end of the month. And onwards and upwards. And fully booked to you, you know, does, is it, you know, everyone just sort of says it's a numbers game, but the bigger, bigger books necessarily mean the better mayor is how do you sort of balance that? Well, I think, I think there's data is so much more readily available now than it was even five years ago. You don't need the massive books to merge because people aren't just making their decisions off the back of yesterday's racing post. You know, they, the people are digging into the data in much more detail. And certainly the shrewd breeder's and blood stock traders are. So, well, yes, obviously if you get 220 mers to a stallion, you've got better chance of stakes when it's, you know, the bit that matters is the data, the numbers that when you crunch them, so what percentage of his stock end up being stakes performance and stakes winners is he capable of achieving a very, very high average and median rating, which the stallion is right up there on. So, you know, once you've proven that, you can, you can, it's all about supplying demand and, you know, we're expecting all the MSH, 250. He's extremely fertile. And that's the thing when I looked him as a race also, I remember him clearly winning the champion stakes, being second in the guineas. And, you know, I just thought this could be a bit difficult, far, as a hugely talented stallion. It was we all like, but he obviously has as well, publicised, facilitated the issues which are where they keep in private. And is it really worth the risk buying a horse like him by far and then discovering he has the same problem? Now that we know he's incredibly fertile, pre-potent and a breed-improver, we can get stuck in with confidence. - Yeah, absolutely. He's obviously a mileer, and I actually thought I had a look at him, what he had done as a three-year-old. He actually falls into the category of a being a Windsor Castle stallion, which is quite difficult to find nowadays, especially for a stallion that can produce two-year-olds, because he won over a mile at three, which these Windsor Castle stallions have to have to have done. So he's still looked relatively commercial at eight and a half-thousand for those kind of breeders, but then I'd imagine looking at the mayors that he's had that have done well. They actually end up being the sort of the more mild to middle-listenstipes as well. So he sort of blends from a two-year-old kind of stallion to a little bit further afield as well. - Yeah, his stakes win as a sort of one from a range of five furlums to a mile and a half. He is unbelievably versatile, and that's why we've always, you know, same with Canneke, what you're really looking for is a top-class mile, and the two best mile racers of the year tend to be the QE2 and the 2000 Ginnies. Those are the stallion-making races, because you can then breed to a vast range of mayors. You can breed sprinters, you can breed middle-listen sources. And, you know, this, I'm like sort of sounds slightly breathless with excitement about, you know, the huge amount of opportunity, a stallion like this gives a breeding farm and breeders generally. You can go anywhere with him, and you, you know, the great thing is, he's going to be improving the value of your breed, my band rather than taking a big risk of it. - Yeah, certainly. And I thought it was very interesting and brilliant to hear about the partners that you've got involved. And I think really recently, we've seen some really interesting new stallions come into the British market. Thanks to an uplift and interest in owning stallions. You know, the likes of, and lots of other studs are printing stallions onto their roster, like sort of Janice's Green, who never had a stallion before, now have all Scotsman and Barton have a Scorley champ. I know you've obviously always had plenty of stallions in the mix, but what do you think this says about breeder confidence and momentum in Britain at the moment, and getting more stallions of this quality in this country? - I mean, we tend to hear an awful lot of doom and gloom about the breeding market and how they breed our band is falling in this country. Obviously, there's a huge amount of energy in Ireland because of the youth that's involved over there. But I would say that, you know, you've mentioned two studs, Janice's Green and Barton. And Michael Swimburn might be an old fart, but he's got a couple of very, very active sons who are gonna go places. Tom Blaine, clearly a young, young back on the run, you know, he's flying along and working really hard. There's plenty of other young coming through, you know, if it's one of the reasons I get, so, head up about this government and their and Harrison's tax issues with farmland and family business is because there's so many headwinds in this game that is going to be one headwind that will wipe out a lot of family run businesses here because there's just no way they can afford a big tax bill on top of everything else. And we need to be encouraging the next generation like crazy to get stuck in. I have to say one of the most heartening things is seeing the average age of the pinhole 'cause it gots and tassels in December and seeing how, you know, the youth is really embracing this industry. And yeah, we need to be downbeat or just heartened about it. There's a lot of good stuff. It's just not getting any help, what's over from the government. Yeah, and I suppose with pinhooking, for a younger perspective, it is trading. And when you're buying into a stallion, it's the idea of the trade of it and selling nominations. And that's where you're going to sort of make money at the end of the day, where as racing is tough, there is trade that can exist in the breeding sector, which a lot of young people, you know, kind of a boyd by in a way, when money is hard to make in racing in general. Mm, I mean, listen, without a healthy racing industry, the breeding industry falls on its face quite quick. You know, the only good thing is that it's very much an international market, the flat market, it's much more difficult, the national hand market, but the flat market is, you know, we saw the earnings this year all round the globe. And, you know, if it struggles in this country, it might be flying somewhere else in the year we saw, thanks to hugely positive tax initiatives in America, where you saw American owners buying horses the well-drained in particular in the UK and Ireland. And I've never been in stronger trade in my life than, well, possibly Japan, but in England in September, it was absolutely boring. So, you know, we are, we're in an international market, it would be fantastic to have our government doing something to help nurture of the market and the export part of our business, rather than constantly take, take, take. But I, you know, I hope that as they see the demographic of people that are involved in blood-stop trading, becoming younger and younger, that they might switch on to the fact that there's something that needs helping and promoting for so many different reasons. Yeah, certainly. And I know you're a big advocate of the internationalisation you travel all over the world, getting more people interested, not just racing, but coming over and breeding in the UK. I'd imagine that'll be quite a key part of the process of King of Change is to also make him attractive internationally and globally. I know you've done that with Kamiko as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I think when Kamiko's had great womaners and Canada and group two women as an America, and I think he's become very fashionable on an international, from an international standpoint, King of Change is at a price point at the moment where anybody can afford to use him. You know, we set this free of eight and a half thousand as an introductory offer today, because we've had any bought him over to start and need him to arrive until New Year's Day in this country. So it's a late launch, if you like, but it's a hell of a coup for British breeders. And, you know, at that sort of level, shipping across the Irish or see all the British channel is a small expense because the value is in the nomination is so great. Yeah, certainly so. I mean, it seems like an exciting stallion to have on your books. I thought it'd be worth-- I don't know if you've read Justin Demobery's piece in the International Thore of Red. But he mentions only a handful of stallions, and you're two are the ones that are mentioned. First of all, King of Change being the one, the standout young stallion, which you already know of, and the fact that you said four black type winners from only 35 runners. But then from the first crop of three-year-olds sires, there are only five who are able to beat the benchmark of 6.7% black type performance to runners. And that's Golden Horde, Pitta Tuba, Gaia, Sansa Marley, and Camico, which suggests that they're all above average sires, which I thought was a great feather in his cap. With that in mind, you dropped him down from 20,000 to 15,000. Was then, what was the thinking of that behind that this year after having that national, far-bred, Darby winner, Wimbledon Hawkeye, and just doing very well internationally? What was the thinking behind the drop? Or is that just the nature of it when it gets to this stage in his tendency, as opposed? Well, I think he's a fascinating horse, Camico, and that he was obviously a record-breaking two-year-olds group one-man-er-and-one, the fastest ever-running in the guineas. He has managed to do really good solid work. And as a result of his sensational first cropper runners was two-year-olds, he had the biggest book of metas. He's ever covered last season. So there's an awful lot of good stuff to come. But you've got to keep-- you're always aware that there's another raft of first season sires, new kids on the block coming through. And as is often the case with horses like him, the rameil, you know, and can get horses running over a mile and a quarter and a half, and more three-year-old types. You've got to keep them relevant. You've got to keep them getting big books to Mars. And you've got to keep them momentum going forward. And a small drop in his nomination fee to achieve that seemed to worthwhile plan, hopefully off the back of his remaining crops, that priceful climb again. And the great thing is they both come from and teach other really well. King of Change and Cameroca are top-tock-class mylers who are improving their-- improving the breed. And that is-- that's all we could-- all we could ask for. Yeah, certainly. So David, I'll let you go. My final question, which is slightly on a bit of a pivot, is how proud you must be as a breeder of heart of honor. Who looks like he's going to set into the Dubai World Cup with a plenty of gusty. I say that's been a bit of another satisfying part of the job to see something. like that turn into such an exciting dirt horse. Well, it's typical isn't it? I mean, this is the side of breathing that people forget when they see the big results. The mayor tragically. I mean, she was the most beautiful, maribi love. She was championed two-year-old in Chile. She was by scat daddy. I bought her relatively inexpensively in Keel and I think we paid $90,000 for her carrying half of honour. I then like a complete number to solve her, um, solved her, have had a great filly for 80 and 90 grand to Matt Colm and we bought her very freely for an owner breeder. And we solved Jamie the zoo star who's now called probably love Colt for relatively small money, I think 40,000 if I remember rightly. She has got a beautiful kamikaze but she's got Colt here now who's just turned one but she died fairly and she got post-fowling collic and I think a bit of a save I'll say. I mean, it's wonderful seeing that both those horses progress because brotherly love also looks very useful, the zoo star horse and looks actually in his brother's image. And yeah, if he can go on and I'm going to greet one that horse it would be, it would be amazing. And great for Jim and Claire who owned the horse with Jamie and I had so much fun out of him. Yeah, we've had a pretty sensational year of breeding, stakes winners and group one horses here, tween us over last season and I just hope it's going to continue. I'm sure it will continue and the great thing is with the horses like, King of Change it can only get better. Yeah, certainly so. Well, with that I wish you all the best, I know it's a busy time. Daniel means fowling time and all the rest so the best of luck and thank you for joining me today. Thanks for lunches. I think that you agree that was a really interesting conversation there with David Radford's great to get that insight as to how the King of Change opportunity came about and what sort of is inspired him and I suppose the the failure of getting Sans Marley open new doors to gain King of Change and taking a punt on a stallion that's already proven probably not as much for risk as one that comes off the back of a racetrack and has got more to prove I suppose but you can find a little bit more commercial value in the stallions that have had a couple of seasons already with runners on the ground and that leads me swiftly and quite nicely onto my next guest who's doing a similar route but on the national hunt and more as we'll hear dual purpose focus and similar to David Radford's this next guest is always looking to find new angles in British breeding especially in national hunt British breeding. So I'm delighted to welcome David Vata, the man behind Norton's stud farm and one of the real movers, shakers, whatever you like to call in British national hunt breeding. And over the years David has built Norton into a serious stallion base the likes of Blue Brazil, a great pretender, Salamani and recently postponed. He's also been very creative in not just the stallions he stands but how we do breeding and bloodstock and selling of horses he launched the yurt and sell of gops and he's played a big role in making breeding and pin hooking and just ownership in general more accessible through syndicates. So he's known for doing things a bit differently so I'm hoping to hear about what's coming up for 2026 but I know that on the top of his mind is his excitement about welcoming a champion son of Frankl to the roster it is cracksmen and again a stallion that's already had a good few seasons as a as a successful stallion with runners on the ground but now he is tannig as an attention to purely dual purpose and I'm looking forward to hearing about the direction yurt and is taking with him. Hi, yes, Yana, happy new to you. Yana, all the team here so excited about 2026 having cracksmen and the other stallions we've got so you know, New Year and let's get you to come in. Let's chat about cracksmen because I loved him as a racehorse. He was obviously the big flag bearer for Frankl so early on in his career as a stallion and he's made a really great start to his stallion career himself but how did the acquisition come about for you to acquire him from the flat boys really to his new role as a dual purpose stallion with you? As obviously straight away, you mean, first of all you never think you're going to be able to have the opportunity to purchase a horse for cracksmen's carnivore but you watching him, he came along, he got a great win over jumps but it really as our business is moving forward and as the industry moved forward where we got the phone who has produced flat horses and we were looking, we're really looking to move into the flat a little bit, dual purpose ways similar to what they do over in France with dual purpose horses there. Cracksmen, his biggest crop of runners has still come to wrong for him so he was very much on the radar not just of ourselves of several still farms I would imagine and our association with Dali and Sam Bollard we managed to get the deal done. And you mentioned you've sort of see what they do in France and that the attractiveness of having a dual purpose stallion and postponed to sort of done that maybe not by purpose but he's just it's come out through that way. Was it is having a dual purpose stallion been something that you've had prior to postponed or is this all sort of because of the way that horses are nowadays that they sort of they sort of seem to foster that that role for themselves quite naturally. Yeah I think fashion let us down a road or if it's coming jumpers the flat won't use it or it's not capable. Well not every I'm not saying every jumping side can side flat winners but there are plenty of specifically through call more and other leading stood farms have national stood farms have sires that were fantastic performers on the flat could equally produce could produce winners on the flat if they're patronised with the right mess and it's something I think moving forward we need to look at as a stood farm we're very interested in that we're not by no means are we joppiship on moving over to the flat because you know national hunters are our horses where we want to be and nothing more passionate than to national hunt breeding but also I think there's a massive opportunity in the flat for distance stallions and distance mayors and you know we're with cracks when in particularly that there's very few stallions that actually produce the horses could as themselves is not better and I mean very very very few if you look through the list and cracks when has already done that you know use a world champion horse himself he's produced a world champion horse and after after a spurt impact won the arcan retired he covered a fantastic bucket mage for two years and they're only they're only just turning two now so he's he's got over 200 two yearlings still to come around for him and we're only on the first week in January so it's got so much that could happen in over the next three to four years on the flood irrespective of what's going to happen over the jumps and so what happens now with him in terms of his book and marketing him as a dual purpose stallion what is that challenge like for your turn it's a new challenge to be the expert and but most things we try here you're to be an expert and we're so sure you know we'll we'll go with it I think on a serious note we've already had I'm not saying we've roped the roc the roc the roc but we've had a lot of flat agents and flat breeders get in touch I don't I think the stigma of going to use a flat side it was a national sub it's probably changing and certainly a sub like your turn that will move forward with the times isn't you know we're not just a one trick donkey here for team isn't yeah certainly and you've obviously see we see in this country the success of golden horn and Nathaniel and the results of that and did that play a part in in your mind as well do you think that slightly makes it a little bit easier or that it's that they've done they've done a little bit of that work as well oh yeah I mean we're certainly not the first ones to trend this path but it's it's to have to have the opportunity to have cracks and you know Nathaniel's still as I mean it's is a side of phenomenal I mean he's five or six grade one when is he's produced now already and he's filled but he's he's been allowed to cover jumping mass as well which is great so he's so you're typical what you say the ideal way and if we could end up getting cracks we're going to be like Nathaniel then that would be job done for us here and you've obviously we've got programs now that are really catering for horses starting earlier the junior national hunt program I know you've the big advocate of do you feel like he is the kind of stallion seeing the horses that he's produced in the national hunt ranks that can that can be earlier that can just fill that that that that that market place that we're really trying to boost at present yeah I mean we can the the horses we we stand you know from get juvenile get juvenile herdlers and young horses on the flat but they you know they're proven to get early times and that's what you know that's what we you know that's what we're trying to move forward to to bring in we don't want, necessarily, every horse we breed to be running at three and not every horse we will breed well run at three, but if the fact that we now started off with the opportunity over here, Ireland, and was already in France with Juvenile hurdles, and Juvenile Herb and it's just another string to the boat and make us stronger as a breeding as a racing community. Yeah, certainly, and it's sort of encouraging the breeders to go about and wanting to have their horses running early too. You've obviously got a great roster of stylians now, a son of De Barley and Piscote and a son of Frank on Craxman, but that's kind of complemented by the great old gentlewaith Ito as well, got that German bloodline in. Are you satisfied with what you have and how much, what the options look like for breeders when they come to Yorton, with all the blood that you seem to have amassed from all of Europe? Yeah, we're delighted with the salads we stand and the backing of to stand these salads, we need supporters and obviously the die-waltz of his family came in supporters of Craxman and the potter family of supporters with the other stylians we stand. And we're delighted to have these sort of caliber of horses, but I still think one of the most important things is the mares. These stylians will produce, can only produce top class horses if we can, if we get really good mares and the mares that can produce a winnest underneath them. So it's a tough tale of both of them, really, the mares and salads and it's taken, when you think back over, we've been here at the late and buildings for 14 years now and during that time, the team because we're quite proud of the salads we stood, we stood still in the Marney, Melinas, Great Matender, Blue Brazil, Clovis De Barley, Master's True, Pessas Moon and that's all been in the last 12 years and any one of those stylians, the Blue Brazil was really the silver marney, Melinas, the Great Matender, they've been covering 100 plus mares now, they were all live and you're still going. So they've all gone through our system and I think that's probably a team that we're more proud of, we've been lucky and we've been fortunate, but we've managed to choose some nice stylians to stand here for the British Breeder. Yeah, and you've touched on, especially Blue Brazil who sadly left us not so long ago and it reminded me of the opportunity that you sort of went out and found at a particularly important moment in his career. Can you remind us of what it was that sort of drew you to him and I suppose another new challenge that you like, you always like to take on, it's part of your ammo. What was it about him that you felt could be a new challenge for you at the time? At the time, it's still medically now, we, you know, we, Stan, they may have come back a bit national, but they went to a level that we couldn't afford as a small family far, but so we always had to try and pick one on the cost of a one week or two, try and poke away a one that we, that one, I was at that particular time I was travelling around throughout the being the internet twice a month with, you know, Richard Van, who's been a great business ally but also a great pal as well. That would be round and that would be in different breeders' fields and you'd be good at what's, you know, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's catch your eye on that one blue Brazil, blue Brazil. And that's really, you know, Stan is gonna look like they, like they look, but really, what they, what they dropped behind from us, you know, if you're a stockman, it's, it's the ground, you know, what they leave on the ground behind them. He's time to stop very well. They look like Ray Swo, so he's just started having a couple of winners and he's gone from very small, there's not poor quality of mess and we were fortunate off, you know, through Richard and, um, die and James Potter, the, between the three of us, Richard, we got important and he was a turning point really for us. But it was all the same. He was, you know, he was only, I think his oldest stock was only four. We went down to an A.Q. PS show down there. We've Richard drove all through the night, went down, bought him, went to the A.Q. PS show and one of the Malinas's falls wasn't the show. So we're so glad we did the deal with Pascal, you, you, you, the thought, the thought of the show and he, Pascal came great mates. That's how he ended up standing great, pretend. But I think you just have to go off and you've finally your own got into the really spin is, is done may well over the years up to now anyway. Yeah, I'd love to be on one of those road trips around France and, um, and meeting, meeting all these, um, wonderful people. But I know it's not easy and I'd imagine it is only, it gets, only gets harder. Is it as difficult, more difficult now to sort of find and source those blue Brazils on the ground in France because they're standing so many stallions. But I'm sure you'd love to nick another one from the next on stage. Yeah, it's, it's become more difficult. I mean, um, and also, and we particularly clever at the time, we probably have a lot less complicated what there is now. When Richard and I was, we were traveling around there 15, 60, 17 years ago, it would, there'd only be a few from Ireland of, you know, I mean a few less, you know, four or five people probably doing it in any number of eight. So there would still be for five or six years, you're going to breeders that never had a visitor from, you know, from, and I think people forget the whole French. Breeders systems changed when I was first over there, there would only be three or four stallions of sort of covered over more than 100 m. Flat and jumps and during that 15 year progress, it completely changed because they became more commercial, whereas they were just going down the road to the, to the local stallion. As more or more businesses were coming and pushing it more commerciality came along, didn't know that we over 30 stallions covered over 100 m in France and very, the others covered very, very few. Yeah, yeah, just in time and I'm not saying once right or once wrong, but how, you know, times change quickly in, in, in all countries moving forward. Yeah, and you say, you know, they begin to see the success that their stallions are having and the success of their French breads. You also touch upon the HVPS shows that they do and they've always come up with new and creative ways to show off their horses and, and make it very clear that these horses can jump early and they can do all the things that we, we could do as well and you've always been a big advocate of putting that on our, our self, hence the yacht and teo old sale. Will you, do you always continue to learn from, you know, what you feel works and what we can do in this country as well? Yeah, I think I'm a big believer of everything we're doing next, if we do everything next year, we're doing the same as this year, we're not moving forward. And these aren't, we're not retracing away in here. These ideas have begun, but you sometimes someone tries something and it doesn't work, but it doesn't mean you can't be trying again in a different time in a different way. And we've, I, even before I got involved with Bloodstock when I first started, I was travelling to Ireland two, three times a month, buying cups and show horses and things. And I learnt from them, my eyes and stockmen got in and what, what naturally, confirmation jump as well, the show jumping, whether it's a pony, whether it's a national horse over a fence, to certain confirmation of horses that make, maybe easier to jump a fence, every horse can jump a jump a jump, but some jumping naturally. And that really has been the leader to, you know, moving forward and going into France, you saw jumping the horses, we're a big believer in loose jumping them. Yes, as strong as you don't have got the human beings on top of it to start with, get the confidence, get the strength, it's a good exercise for them and lead them. So that's how we started doing the loose jumping. Yeah, and it's been so well received. I know that you had one follow year, but you were back again last year with the autumn sale and the response was great, but I'd imagine it's still hard work to make sure that you can get those, the quality that I know that was the reason why you didn't do the 2024 sale. What does it, what does it look like for this year and, and are you boy by what happened last year with that in, with that in mind for the coming years? Yeah, I mean, we're so, you know, first thing with the golf with the sale, we were so grateful to golf and the golf team and we've been all the team. They back to his right from the start and we have to remember that it was about nine years ago when we came up with the idea where we're going into our seventh year over eight sale, seven sale over eight years. And I don't, I don't really, people really understand how difficult it was to start because we're to get it going one year to find a partner who will help you get it going. Golf kind of came on board. And then as we start to sell one, first of all, we didn't really know what we're doing to start with. So we're definitely learning as we went. And we knew that we would have to sell a lot of the stock for less, we were selling two year olds and we'd probably set the time we were selling 50% to pinhokers, which we never mind stand at pinhokers. But when the whole idea of this sale was to sell to end users and get them into training earlier. And during that sort of first three years, there was, you know, over 800,000 pounds went in up left from people pinhoking. So we had to swallow that and keep going to get to the end game as we gone through and it was our contacts in our relationships with French trainers and owners that came over. And every 25% or third of it go to France. And I think it was the French trainers that originally the first two or three sales back then. And then since then, there's a lot of British trainers come on and I think last year's sale was our most successful. I don't necessarily. I mean, we turned over the most money and had the highest average. But it was a sale that was just, drummingly nearly all the horses went in. We knew we were going to go into training. And we still want pinnacles here, 'cause there's several pinnacles that can ever be supported right from the start. And we love having them. And we love seeing them make money on it. But the whole idea this game is to have a high percentage of the horses going into training. - Yeah. - Just to give you some of the stats, Rothschild, off the sale. From five years, five sales, we've had 141 runners, and over 50% of them have won. And we're only selling two rolls. And out of that, we've had 14 black type horses, two grade one when it's grade two winner. And an off the ones that have won, 70% of ones with won are either york and homebreds or binned by york and salons. So it's a way of creating for breeders to say, look, you can do this. We're as a nation, we're grade breeders in Britain. We just got to move forward with the times and look over opportunities to get off the dock into training earlier, I think. Oh, you have certainly out to training. We have a reserve here, even in stilers for years. - And do you think that message is getting to the breeders that you would like to join you on that? 'Cause I'd imagine quite a lot of these horses, as you say, are homebreds. But what about the other breeders that could bring their two year olds to the sale that can produce a horse via the york and sale and do it from their ground up? Have you seen a swing to more breeders being part of that journey with you? - Oh, yeah. I mean, there's lots of breeders come out. And lots of younger pre-trainers, point to point trainers, you know, they're getting involved in Ed Bailey who's on the National Committee. He's a young forward-thinking person and he's driving the industry forward with, you know, with these ideas. And there's lots of breeders doing it now. I mean, economy's tough, lots of industries and it's particularly tough for National breeders at the moment and for all breeders. But I think the slide to the end of the tunnel we're getting through it. And I think as breeders, we have to remember whatever may as we cover this year in 2026 will not be free until 2030. I'm not going forward until 3041. It's been able to stay strong. We'll be having horse racing in 2030. Most definitely, you know, but we've got to produce the stock for somewhere. And it'll be the ones who push forward and carry on that will reap the reward, you know. I've got my view on it anyway. - Yeah, absolutely. And it's exactly what you want to hear when you read in the papers at the moment that British racing and British National Hunt racing seems to be kind of resurging against the Irish and time for telltale them. That's great, but they might not necessarily be all be British bread horses. They're just British trained, but they still needed that push whenever it was five years ago when we had a whitewash at Cheltenham and the Irish beat us all. But British breeding also needs that same push to be on the benchmark so that we see in Cheltenham that there's an equal amount of British winners as there are Irish and French. - Yeah, I mean, there's nothing like being a caught out, being left behind to get you motivated and there's no way you'd be forgetting from it. We've probably got a little bit, you know, I offer more if you say it's a whole industry and but make no mistake, the goodwill and the strength behind through the TBA and the National Committee and lots of readers and sales companies and lots and lots of different people want to see the British breed and be successful. And I'm genuinely feeling it. And it isn't made with any anger, anything else. I'm really passionate about it. I've never been to any of my life, I've had this job but I'm passionate about National. We really are going to move into good time, not just, let's say, financially been a good time with our style. We've got great stallings in this country. There's something great bears, there's some young lads who are investing in girls who are investing in to great National honbs. And it's just a whatever we breed this year is going to take, it's not going to happen overnight because it's just a process. By the time we fold them to the run of three, it's just put it over the next three, four years we will have a massive turnaround. And what a great way to sort of back that thinking and to have this inaugural stallion trail, the National Honk stallion trail that the TBA have masterminded. And it's the first time it's been done but there have been stallion trails in Ireland and France. So it sort of feels like something that we should have and it's great to make it happen coming this Saturday and Sunday, 10th and 11th of January. So that must be something you're really, really proud to be a part of. Oh yeah, it's great. The TBA National honk committee and the TBA and a whole lot of great supporters and they've come up with this idea. You don't have to ask the honk team twice whether they want to come and invite people in, have a bit of a party and that's right at our streets. So we're very much looking forward to it and to open the doors and get people involved in it. I mean, I haven't thought you old enough to remember. But I first started working with the stallion and I was like, "Oh, I'm going to go to the stallion "and I'm going to go to the stallion "and I'm going to go to the stallion and I'm going to go to the stallion and I'm going to go to the stallion breeding excitements that will give me a little bit more appetite to share bigger and better stories with you all. So a very happy New Year! Thank you as always for subscribing, I hope you're enjoying them and let's kick on for a bigger and better 2026.