Episode 24: With Felix Wallner CEO of Hanhart Watches

[Music] Hello and welcome back to the Time to Calibrate podcast. This is episode 24. I am Bob Alibi from the Time to Go Travel and Timepieces YouTube channel and I am joined by my co-hosts for Freelance writer Mark Leveck and Brent Robyard from the Calibrated wrist. Today we have a very special guest Felix Walner. Felix is the CEO of German brand Hanhart Watches and Felix welcome to the show. Really glad to have you. Thank you very much for the invitation and thank you for having me. Yeah, problem at all. So our first order business here on the show is Aristex. We begin all shows with Aristex as our guest today. We'd love for you to go first. What's on risk today? I watched it. We're in very often since it's released. It's our Preventer HD12 where we have a special steel developed with it. So it's a very good daily watch. It's very clean. It has a very clean eye also. For me, one of the watches that I like to wear on the day-to-day basis because it's yeah, it's just something that you can wear with everything. You can wear it when it's hot when it's cold. Awesome. That's a cool watch. Brent, how about you? Well, I'll probably have a few questions where you feel it's about that watch a little bit later. It was really impressed when you showed it to me in Vancouver. So we're hoping to have it in here for review shortly too. That would be great. But in light of your participation here today, I actually put on the hand heart of 417 ES Heritage Flyback and it's got that iconic red pusher which we'll talk a little bit more about today as well. But actually, Bob and I were in Toronto last night. We had a beer together and he passed this along to me so that we could do some stuff here at the calibrated wrist. And as always, very impressive piece. 100%. Just actually just a few minutes ago, my video on that watch was posted to my YouTube channel. I haven't posted on Instagram for let everybody know yet, but loved the getting some time with that watch. Mark, how about you? Well, in order to change things up because I've been talking about and wearing my omega planet ocean for several weeks now and people are pretty bored of hearing me talk about it. I've got the Timex, what's it called? Deep water. It's a deep Timex GMT. I've got this in from Highlander Fox as a giveaway for Instagram. So I'm wearing that for a little bit. So a pretty fun watch, very inexpensive. I mean, Sully built very impressive for what it is. And one of the cool things is, I don't know if you can see that on camera. I know this is an audio podcast, but the the Tang buckle passes the leftover bit of the strap underneath. So no keepers. Oh, that's cool. So that's kind of cool. Well, it's a little neat design. So fun watch for the summer. Hopefully given away soon. I think it may mean does that same thing actually, the path the pass underneath like that. Yep. What about you there, Bob? Well, Mark clearly failed the assignment today. I'm also wearing hand heart. I have the 417 the flyback panda. And this is sweet. We did their swap last night, Brett and I. So I have this in another hand heart in a bunch for a little while. Yeah, it is on a bunch. That's a lot of leather. It is a lot of leather, but I'm liking it. It looks good on you, man. Yeah, yeah, it's very cool. So a few weeks ago, we had the opportunity to meet you as well as friends out at the Vancouver timepiece show. It was great meeting you guys. We had a lot of laughs. How was the trip? I believe you mentioned it was your first time in Canada, at least your first time in Vancouver was it was worthwhile visiting the the Great White North. Yeah, yeah, we enjoyed it really a lot. I've been to Nova Scotia before. And this is a beautiful area as well, but I've never been to the west coast. And Vancouver was stunning to us. It was really with all the water around the city. And especially where the show was, it was at the shipyards where you had the skyline in front of you. It was so amazing for us. And then we did this bicycle ride around the this peninsula, the half island. What is it called again? Standing part. Standing part. Yeah, that was so great. We saw some what are the animals called in the ocean sea lions? No, sea lions and seals. It seals seals. Yeah, we saw some seals. And you know, when you come from an area where the ocean is far away, it's always fascinating. And the vibe and the whole city, we we loved it. We liked it a lot. We heard it's expensive to live there. Very. So maybe maybe for obvious reasons, but we enjoyed the trip for the city. And what was for us as well, very nice was to see the audience that visited the show. And the two or three days one one day was especially invited only, but the other two days, all the people that we met were really, really, really, we had great talks. We had talks to people that are highly educated about watches as well. So that's what we love about those shows is to connect with people that as well see a lot of watches. Because for us, the important part about it is not only to bring our brand to more people or to show our brand, but the direct feedback from all these people is so important in the development of new watches. And for us, it's been a new experience in Canada. I mean, we did a couple of shows in the United States already in Germany. So it was a new experience, but yeah, it was it was great. One thing one thing that was kind of cool because there's such a mix of brands there. You guys were probably one of the oldest brands at the show. And right beside you, I think it was was actually the newest brand at the show. I don't know if you recognize this watch or not. Knock to a. I will always I will always think of you guys to get you guys at a little bit. So knock to a head at his display to maybe help get a little attention and it definitely worked. He had a flame thrower at his Felix enjoyed some time with that after the show outside, which was kind of a little experience. That's how we kind of bonded to be honest with you. Felix, no, no, no, it was it was really JP with noctua was right next to us. He's such a he's such a great guy. And we talked to him and we were like, what is that that thing? You know, in Germany, I think you would get the rest. And immediately. This is this noctua based in BC or nearby because how did he bring that in? Definitely bring that in your plane. Edmonton Edmonton. So we drove. Yeah, I think he drove. Yeah, because there's no way you bring that in your plane. No, and then and then and then we said, yeah, what is it? Yeah, flame thrower. And then it was a yeah, well, it doesn't work or is it all the like, you know, it's a piece to show no, no, it works. You can try it. And we were like, what for real? Let's go out. Let's go outside after we did it was it was so great. That's awesome. So I've read in a couple of writeups that you began with handhardt in 2014 as co CEO curious as to how that happened. Was there a connection to the watch world beforehand or you may be into watch as personally before working with handhardt? I personally was not in the watch business at all at the time. But in 2014, the situation for handhardt as a brand was was very special. There was in 2008, there was a change in ownership. And back then the the sun in law of Willie handhardt was owner of the brand together with a group of people from Munich. And in 2008, the people from Munich they sold their shares to Swiss investors. And in 2014, they sold their shares back to the group in Munich because their strategy did not work out the way they wanted. And at that time, it was a very difficult situation for the brand. And that was as well why the new owners, the old new owners, it went to Switzerland, they came back and the new owners day said, well, we did don't believe in investing a lot of money and well we don't think that money is the road to success. We think that having someone young and well not only young but as well committed to work and well they wanted to try something we can put it as well that way and at the time Simon was already a ten-hart for I think seven years he was a production manager there and I was working for the new ownership group and then I was approached and Simon so we were approached if we want to take the challenge if we want to try to bring this old brand to new life and that was when it was of course for us a great chance and it was really very very nice for us to get the chance to build up this old brand again but it was a very difficult time as you can imagine if there is someone that is telling you well you can do whatever you want you can reinvest all the money that you earn but you don't get any money it's very very difficult to build up a watch brand even though it's old without any marketing budget without any budget to develop new models so it was it was a very very rough start in 2014 but we knew that we don't want to be here only for a short term so it was a long term approach it was a long term project for all of us and we we love the things that we did and we still love the things that we do we love it each year more because we have new possibilities you know with with all the developments that we did in the last years it opened up so many new opportunities that yeah we're we're more excited than ever but that was that was the whole idea behind the change in management in 2014 was to say well we don't want someone that has been in the industry for many many years we want to bring in new ideas we want to we want someone dedicated to the little brand and yeah it was a rough it was a rough time at the beginning but now we're we're really happy that we took all the challenges and we invested all the work and yeah that's that's how it came along congratulations man like guys went well for you guys I want to dig into those early years a little bit more because you know it's one thing to start your own brand from from a new from fresh and it's another to inherit something that has such a rich tradition and such a long period of production so what what were those early years like for you was you were uncovering the archives and you were uncovering that heritage how did you decide that how did you decide your direction forward yeah the main difficulty for us was at the beginning we had so what we took over from the old management was stock so there was already a watch collection there and we needed to make the decision do we want to continue the way the the watches were or do we want to add into new directions and there were things that we liked there were things that we did not like but the the biggest limitation at the beginning was that we did not have really a lot of budget for new developments and that started in 2016 2017 so one one of the first developments that we did and where we invested a lot of money and not a lot of money but a lot of time to get all the details right that was really the 417 yes we it took us over a year longer than we expected because we were not happy with the first with the first prototypes and we did everything new with in watchmaking one millimeter is it's such a few it's a lot and we wanted to to have all the things perfect when we do a new watch that has such a strong heritage and that was I think the moment where it where it kicked off for us before that we tried to promote old collections and that was much harder than bringing in something new and when you look at what we're doing now it's still a bit comparable of course we always get inspiration from the past but we think that for us it's not only recreating old pieces I mean we do that with the 417 yes heritage or with with all our 417 yes 415 yes models as well with the pioneer models we try to recreate that match it from the past but with especially now with the new aquosphere it's as well a model where we said okay we want to have handhard DNA in it but it's a completely new design so when it comes to new developments yeah we always look at the past but it's not only recreating old models cool so I've spoken with a few people in yourself included a little bit about your production facility recently the owner of Halikin watches I was talking to him about it he had been there at some point in time and he said it was like stepping back in time I think it was built in the 30s can you kind of tell us a little bit about the facility there yeah yeah the building is how do you how do you say in English in Germany there is a saying where you where you say it's at the same time it's heaven and a nightmare I don't know what the English expression for it would be but it's yeah it is a building from the 30s and handhardt is producing there since 1934 without interruption so that is something that is very unique as well for the for the watch industry well a short period of time after the war I think there was a stop in production but apart from that there was no interruption in in manufacturing there and this is something that you don't see that often in the watch industry and you can feel it almost in the whole building we have some floors that have been renovated where we have our museum where we have our showroom but especially the production area and the machinery is still relatively old and it's mostly used for the stopwatch production in the stopwatch field we do more than 95% of the movements on our own so it's a very high degree of production capabilities or production as well on the movement itself and the thing is that especially when you look at the stopwatches we're doing about four to five thousand stopwatch mechanical stopwatches a year and with given those production numbers it just doesn't make sense to invest into high high end equipment high-end CNC machinery because we would have in not really long times to pay those these off so we work with those old machines they work very well they have they have a great precision and for us it's we always say there is the museum the real museum and there is our production which is as well kind of a museum that's called how big is the team there like how many people work out of the the building there we're 25 25 yeah still still still a small the small manufacturer yeah there's an old customer of mine in southern Quebec that ran a manufacturing facility for unrelated to watches but they had equipment there from the 1950s and 60s and it was old it was very precise it did it did the job very well but apparently because of the aging population and the people that work there the people that service those machines are now retiring and the people are coming on board afterwards do not know how to fix these machines because everything was done is as similar to you I mean are the people working those machines if they break down or if they need service or can they can they operate them can they service them yes so for us it's more than or the the bigger challenge is that one person knows everything and and so the knowledge is very concentrated of course other people know some machines but one of the bigger challenges over the next years will be to to get this knowledge passed over and you're you're a hundred percent right with this with this old machinery it's very difficult to get spare parts we do our own tooling because because it's more effective And what is as well interesting when producing those parts? We don't want to do so many things on our own. It's just because given the amount we're producing each year, many suppliers over the past 20 years told us, "Well, given those production numbers, we don't supply you with the parts anymore." So once a supplier told us, "Well, you can buy my machines, but I won't produce the parts for you anymore. I bring these machines up once a year to produce your parts and then we say, "Okay, we're going to buy the machines." So we're doing much more than we want to do, but we don't have any alternative. Yeah. You mentioned that there was a period after the war where the company had gone dormant for a little bit, now I remember in the 1990s when I discovered the internet and we were looking into watches and a-lang and so on had reopened their manufacturer in Germany. This was a big deal back then. When Henhardt went dormant, how long was that for? And how did the company get started again? Yeah, so after the war, Henhardt was part of the French occupation. So, and in Billy Henhardt was a Swiss citizen. So before the end of the war, he flew to Switzerland. So he went to Switzerland and right after the, what is it called, an English degree meant, was signed? It's a German research. Yeah. He went back to Germany. He was then like everyone who was in, well, who had a company somehow connected to the German life before that, needed to, was arrested and had a trial. And his biggest, do you say, allegation? Or, his biggest allegation was that he did not hand over all the chronographs to the French people because, you know, it was, it was a very hard time then when people suffered from, or they did not have enough food and it was, it was a very difficult time. And he used the watches as a payment method. So he was not happy at all with what the French did because they took all the machinery from Henhardt and moved it over to Lille in Besson-Sau in France. Yeah, and it was quite new. And they wanted to produce then chronographs there. And according to our, to the history that we have, Lille was never able, even though they had the machinery and they had engineers from Henhardt come over for a couple of times, they never were able to recreate the chronographs. So Henhardt needed to build then as well chronographs for the French. And those were, I don't know if you're familiar with Vixav. VIXA. They have as well beneath the brand Vixav. They have type 20 below. So those were the watches for the French army produced by Henhardt. And if you look at the pieces, they look exactly like how four 17 years models. And so what happened after the war? Vixav was arrested for, yeah, for not giving all the watches to the French. And but was released a short time after that. And then they started production again. So I think it was maybe one to two years that there was no production. And what is interesting, because you mentioned the 90s or the 80s, when the quartz crisis hit, Henhardt was very innovative, especially in the 60s, 70s, 80s. And Henhardt, when you come to our museum, we have as well samples there. Henhardt had an electro mechanical movement at the very early stage. Henhardt had its own quartz movement at the very early stage. And Henhardt sold more than 40 million quartz movements before the quartz price from the Far East dropped below one US dollar. Then it was as well done for Henhardt to the quartz business. But that was a very successful time for the company when already many mechanical only companies in Switzerland struggled a lot. Henhardt had the best times in history because they've been so innovative at that stage. But then in the late 80s, early 90s, when the quartz business was dead for Henhardt, there was as well a very, very hard time. You beat me to my next question because I was about to bring that up. I noticed that in 1972, Henhardt developed a quartz movement and the same thing I, what you just mentioned. So my follow up to that was it looks like there's a bit of a renaissance for high accuracy quartz movements. There's brands like Bruno Somme, who make quartz movements visible through display back. And they make a new plate to put on top of the movement. Make it look pretty. Is there any possibility that Henhardt may revisit using quartz movements in the future? I don't have any plans because when we look at our priority, it's just, we just don't see it. We have so many nice old mechanical movements that we would love to rebuild someday. It's a tough task and we're just about to start with it. We know it's going to take a very long time, but when we look at new developments, we don't think about quartz. We're thinking more about rebuilding maybe the old caliber 41 that we love with the, with the column wheels, the old flyback movement. The vertical clutch. Yeah. So for us, it's, it's just we don't really see the quartz movement within our brand. Okay. I also noticed on your site, as I was going through the history of it, I'm not as familiar with Henhardt as my cohosts, but I noticed that there was a collaboration with Dornier. And their legendary Dornier DOX C plane and Iran Dornier 2004 UNESCO endorsed World Tour. Are there any plans for any other collaborations in the near future? Well, we do collaborations regularly when there is a good fit. And right now we're working on something as well. Just recently or two years ago, we did a collaboration with a German motor racing team. So, yeah, you will see new collaborations in the future. But right now it's for me, hard to talk about them publicly. So, okay, no one's listening. It's just up. It's funny. So we've been to a few times that like Henhardt is obviously really well known for its chronographs, particularly its pilot inspired chronographs. It has those deep historical roots and all that sort of stuff. But you've also mentioned your atmosphere. And there's a few other things in the collection that are also sort of forward thinking, how do you strike a balance between living up to that legacy and viewing off into new directions? So for us, when we look at the models in general, and as well when we look at the history in general, like I explained, the most successful times for Henhardt were those when Henhardt was highly innovative. And that was when you think back in 1882, Adolf Henhardt started the company in Switzerland. He opened a small repair shop and a retail shop for watches. He then moved to Germany. But the big success came through his cell, Willy Henhardt, who in the 20s, he saw at a sports event that there was. There were not many stopwatches and they were only very expensive and all of them came from Switzerland. And then he sat together with a watchmaker from his father and said, "We need to develop a stopwatch for the mass market." And that's when the whole big growth of Henhardt began. And after the times of war it was as well. Henhardt tried to do things that no one else is doing, tried to. tried to be innovative on all fronts. And that's what I think is the most important lesson for us to learn. And that's why we're as well, like with the HD12C, with the atmosphere on the design and it was when we started the development of the atmosphere that was already a couple of years ago. Again it took us a long time to get all the details right but when we started with the development we said okay we think even though we are mainly known for pilots watches we're as well known in the racing field but we did not have a proper dive watch but we think that as a watch brand a dive watch is always something that is a good addition to any collection and it as well proves because the requirements for a dive watch are very different when you compare them to the requirements for pilots watch and they're tough and we wanted to prove that we're as well capable of doing a proper dive watch and that's when we when we started the development for us the most important thing was first of all of course keep our distinct design but as well technically we wanted to be comparable with the best dive watches in the market and so when we look at collection wise we try to implement heritage we try to look at the future and I hope that in the future as well people like our designs. Yeah well you know your most recent re-issue obviously we've mentioned it already date of the 417ES that's kind of iconic for your brand but it also involves innovation like you were saying so why don't you tell our audience a little bit about some of the innovations that are in this latest version of that watch. Yeah so the latest 417ES which is the 417ES heritage flyback to be honest all the parts of the watch have been there before already but that is where I what we talked about before when going to to those watch shows and getting those these direct or this direct feedback from people and there are many people out there that know our brand very well and they know all the details and we received over the past two years we received many requests or many people asked us why why don't you build the 417ES with your iconic correct pressure and you know in watch development you always need to make decisions and especially when you want to reintroduce a model that has been there in the past then you need to make decisions okay what do you want to do historically correct what do you want to adapt and what do you want to do completely new and on the first model of the 417ES you know for us it was always clear that we want to have sapphire crystal on top of the watch it's it's just the best material that that you can have as as a covering for for the detail for for the dial then we needed to make the decision okay do we want to have the see through case back or a solid case back on the first version we said okay we want to have a solid case back then we had an anti-magnetic case as a third of the development and with when it comes to the red pusher the historical 417ES was produced without the red pusher the red pusher was before that there was on the MK1 MK2 the old caliber 40 39 and 40 and these caliber 40 41 and these calibers or these watches had the red pusher as a signal marking for pilots to not accidentally push the lower pusher we like to to tell us the well there is a legend that we tell we like to tell much more which says that the pilot left his home and the plane looked at this watch and saw that the pusher was not polished was painted with red and a polish from his wife so that he always thinks of her and yeah so we did the first version without the red pusher and people kept asking why don't you have the red pusher on the 417ES and that's where we said okay we need to have one with the red pusher the second thing is until the 417ES flyback heritage we only had the column wheel flyback movement with the panda and reverse panda dials and that was a request that we received as well very often why don't you have the flyback movement with the old black dial and we just combined the ingredients that the dial and that's how the the 417ES flyback heritage came to life and that's why as well we used the slogan because you asked for it because it's it's it's really what we were asked for well I'm really glad you told that story about the red pusher because had you not I would have asked you about it anyway you you eventually do you agree and mover and I'm not sure if I believe it or not but it is a great story I put a lot on all my watches so I have a kind of a question about like the process like when it comes to design especially maybe on a newer watch like your diver when it comes to design and eventually production do you personally have a hand in that or are you more on the business side or a little bit of both no I think that is something that is maybe a bit unusual as well we okay the main ideas come from Simon Simon is my my colleague my co-CEO I'm one of the two co-CEO so we we the main ideas for you watches usually come from our end but we need to admit as well that our watchmakers and all the people working for us they're so great they're highly involved as well they they really as well when they have suggestions ideas they always bring them up and I'm really happy that we have an atmosphere where everyone can say whatever they want because it's as well shows you the things that you're doing wrong so when it comes to to the design we think of okay what are we going to do next and Simon and and I are highly involved in it but we as well try to get all the people in Gutenberg on the table to where we have first style options first as first as drawings we ask him what do you think about him what do you like about it what don't you like about it how do you think can this watch be made better and as well when it comes to new movements you know we have very very good watchmakers that are well watch aficionados as well and they know what movements are being used from from other manufacturers and what things can be done in the different way and so it's it's a very active approach to design of watch and of course in the end not everything is a hundred percent democratic because sometimes when as well I when I feel I have a strong opinion about something then yeah we want to push it through but still it in in general the best argument wins and I think that is the way that is as well a good way how to make our watches better that's awesome that's great well piggy and piggybacking on to Bob's question about process I'm curious about the primus series because more than even the atmosphere this one seems to be a much more modern and avant-garde approach so what went into the decision making there and where how does that fit into your overall handhard collection yeah so there is a very interesting story to that as well that was before our time so when the primus series was introduced that was back in 2008 when the Swiss investors to cover they wanted to make handhard all new and that was a time they moved well handhard was founded in decent hope in Switzerland but in 1902 moved to Germany so the majority of the history is German but there is a small part Swiss history as well and that is why the Swiss investors they opened the headquarters in decent hope where the foundation was and they wanted to change the brand completely they said okay we're going to remove the pioneer series and they brought in the primus collection and the primus collection was designed by a very, very popular design team around Geneva. There was as well responsible for very, very popular designs for major brands. So the whole design itself, I think, is outstanding. But it never had the budget to communicate it in a way like the big players do it. And then it, well, it was as well at different time, you know, bigger case sizes were more popular. Now, the primacy has a case diameter of 44 millimeter. So it is present, big watch. We still love it. It has flexible locks. So that is something that is very unique. So the locks adjust to your, to your wrist. And the whole idea back then with the design was, take parts from hand hearts DNA and bring it into a completely new design. So when you look at the primers chronographs, you will see all of them have the fluidity bezel. Hand heart, hand hearts past is very much about the fluid bezel. Then they have the dial layout with the small dials at three and nine o'clock. So many call it by compact style display. This is very typical for a hand art because back in the 30s, 40s, 50s, all the hand art chronographs had that dial set up. So the whole primacy is has as well that dial set up. Then they have the red pusher. But in a more modern way, it's it's anodized aluminum and not like like we have on our 417 years fly by carrytouch. It's high surround. It's a ceramic compound. And so the whole approach is much more modern, but it still has some of the core features of hand heart chronographs. So that was the whole design idea. And I think still today it's it's an outstanding watch. And we have ideas on how to bring as well that collection to to a new age, but this is something of a more long term project. You know, the the preventer is another watch that intrigues me in your collection. And it's one of the newest as well. It also marks a bit of a departure from the pilot as that. Maybe not so much as the as the primest does. But I am curious when you were making the decisions to build this watch, were you aware of just how popular was going to be because it seems to have really resonated with the fact that you can't keep it in stock. Yeah, and it's not that all it's for us. It's still when it comes to production, you always need to invest a lot of money because you need to purchase all the parts you need to produce them before selling them off. And we're still not, as I said, we don't have any investor. So we always need to look at balancing it out. So we cannot say we order amounts that we don't really see a demand for. And we were so surprised with the demand for the new preventer HD 12. We like the design from the beginning on, but it's always very hard to to estimate how how people are going to to yeah to react to it. And I mean, like with all watches, we put all our all our heart into it and we invest a lot of time. And when you see that success, it's just it's so satisfying. It's so great. Fantastic. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. But yeah, we're putting up production numbers. The difficulty with the HD 12 is the special steel treatment. It is the first watch in our collection where we introduced the new HD 12 steel. And that includes a two stage process. So in the first stage, the base is 316 L steel that is used in many, many watches. But then in the first stage, it's a low temperatures of low 500 degree Celsius carbon dioxide molecules are being infused into the surface of the watch and it changes the material itself. So it's not a coding. It changes the material itself. So it's it's not something that can come off. And on top of that, we we put a hardened layer, PVD coding, it transpired one to make it two times hardened. And it's just it takes time. So when it is sold out, it's never as easy as with other watches to say, okay, we're going to restock because it takes a much longer time. And that's as well the reason why it's so hard for us to keep it keep the production up with with demand. So what you're saying is that the steel is a carbon sink and you're saving the fine fine. All about environments. I mean, hand heart. How forward is that? I think we just sold a whole bunch more here in trouble. It's it's it's a great way of seeing it. I never thought about it. I'm a marketing angle. So my my co-host. It's carbon molecules, not carbon, diets. Did I say carbon? I have to make it. No, no. It's the way I said it. Yeah, it's at the spin it the right way. So unlike my co-hosts who are general watch lovers and corner graphs and all kinds of stuff, my main focus has always been dive watches. And I noticed a couple years ago when you introduced the aquosphere, it was quite the departure for your brand. And we talked about, you know, the preventor and the primus. But it seems that every brand wants to have a dive watch. Again, it proves the capabilities of a company to create a watch that can withstand, you know, water pressure and no one really needs a Ferrari to go 200 miles an hour. It's just to have it because it can do it, right? So same thing with the dive watch. I have a planet ocean that's that's rated to 600 meters. If I go two meters in a swimming pool, I'm that's pretty deep for me. So what was the thought behind creating the dive watch? Was it just so to show that you can do it or was it was a demand? Were were your clients asking for a dive watch? And that's that's the thing that where I say you need to evolve as a brand, you need to move, you cannot be steady. Our customers before then were not really asking for a dive watch because they did not think of handhard, having a dive watch. But we there was in the primus collection. There was already the primus diver. And that was a watch that I that I wore in 2014, 15, 16, a lot. It had an internal routine bezel, right? Under the glass. I think no, no, no, no, no. It was from the primus collection, but we we always said it's we laughed at design, but it's more of a beach diver. So it's it's more like the beach watch. You know, you can wear it at the beach, but it's not a proper dive watch. It was at the beginning, it was water resistant to 10 atmospheres, 100 meters. We increased it to 300 meters because we said, well, 30 atmospheres because we said below that it's well, it's not really a proper dive watch. And still then with the flexible locks, it had some some flaws when it came to diving. And there was no distinction in the loop between minute and hour hand. So there were some details that we thought can be proved, but we liked the overall design. And that's that was more the point where we said, okay, first of all, the technical challenge. We want to prove that we're capable of doing a proper dive watch. And as important, we we already have some some elements of design that we really like a lot. And when it came to the case design, I remember one day that was we said, okay, how do we how do we want to do the bezel. And especially the numbers on the bezel because they are very distinctive. And they had been on the old primus diver, they had been like that as well. And then we said, okay, because we're We would like to know how to watch what look with other numerals on the bezel. And we made some drawings with a presentation where we had different options of bezels. And we asked in Gutenbach, we asked the whole team, we asked in our shareholder group, we asked a couple of people as well that they are not watch collectors. Which bezel do you like best? Or which one would you be prioritized? And most of them took a design that was familiar to them. Like you know all the Rolex, Omega, whatever, dive bezels, they have a fault that is, I don't know, it's, well, maybe more standard that you're more used to. And then we, at the beginning without, okay, maybe to make this watch more successful, maybe we should do a design that is a bit more standard. And a couple of days or two weeks later, we set together again and then we said, but when you look at it, very successful designs today, many of them have been heavily criticized at the beginning as well. And now they are the things that make the brand distinctive. You know that they make the brand differ from one another. And that's why we said, no, we really want to have the primest diver bezel. We want to have those numerals that are highly distinctive because maybe some won't like it, maybe some will like it. But in a couple of years down the road, people will recognize this dive watch for this design. And if it's a more standard design, then you don't have such a strong brand identity. So yeah, that was just a thought about that when we're talking. No, that's fantastic. And you're absolutely right. I agree that the brand identity is instantly recognizable as a handhard, even though it is not a chronograph and it is a dive watch. Yeah, agreed. Now I have to apologize to you because when I went to the Vancouver Type-B show, I made a mental note to come and see your booth because I wanted to see that dive watch in person. And my friends here talked about handhard for a long time. I was helping at the isotope booth with the owner there and you know, how it is at these shows is very busy. And there's a lot of other brands that I've worked with and talked to over the years. So I tried to make my way to your booth. I never made it. It was, you know, what you think is a five minute conversation. And hour later, you're still talking to the person. And you know, because oftentimes you talk to these people over the internet or you know, sometimes on the phone, but you never meet them in person. And when you do, you know, you connect. And so unfortunately, I apologize. I didn't get a chance to meet with you. But I want to make that right. Are you coming to Toronto Timepiece show this year? Yeah, I'm coming to Toronto as well. And I hope we have time there to talk about it. Absolutely. I'm going to start with your booth this time and then I'll go around to other people that I'm going to miss. Actually, we should probably, we should probably mention because the tickets actually just, I think went on, they're not for sale, they're free, but you can get them as of yesterday. So if you want to, I think it's true. Is it timepiece show to get the tickets for that? Yeah, I spoke to Jason yesterday afternoon. He said 900 tickets that already been taken up. So I don't know if there's going to be any flame, I don't know if there's going to be any flame flow, uh, throwers there. Jason, Jason does have a big collection of samurai swords. Just stay. Just stay. Just stay. Do you like that? That's trouble. So Felix, looking ahead to things like Toronto, etc. I just assume that handhard is going to continue exploring its deep heritage and it's also going to continue to innovate. But what we really want to know is can you offer us any teasers? What's in the pipe? Again, Felix, no one's listening. Just tell us. Just a little bit more. I think it's like a conversation. Well, one thing and this is something that we've been asked really a lot as well. So it's more like listening to customers again. When you look at our bracelets, we don't have a microt justment yet. We were working with the dive extension. So we hope that we're going to have soon some sort of intermediate solution. And then on the longer end, we have our own development as well in the pipeline. This is something where I think that, yeah, like with the design as well when it comes to develop it's in general. We like to do things on our own. We like to think about new ways doing things. And there is something in the pipeline. And of course, I mean, something that might maybe be a bit obvious as well. If you look at the aquosphere collection and what it is called right now, right now it's not really a collection. There is a lot of space next to the blue aquosphere. So I think there is room for imagination, and especially as well when it comes to the Preventer HD 12, there is as well room for other models. So yeah, I think these are some things that I can tell. Of course, we want to surprise you as well with a couple of things. So what I'm hearing here is there going to be a pink and a purple aquosphere coming up. I've got it. No, it's as well for us. For us, something that we like to do a lot as well, work with new materials. And that is something that this year we're going to present something. And next year we have some thoughts as well. So yeah, some things coming up. Okay. So you're not going to tell us what you're saying. The Toronto Mike B. Show everybody. Exactly. So we've got a question from a listener that we asked people to pose on Instagram and elsewhere. This is from Ken. He goes by central seconds on Instagram. And he asks, "Hanard has such a rich legacy rooted in precision and performance. How do you envision telling that story to a new generation of watch enthusiast visually in a way that honors a brand's heritage but feels fresh and relevant today?" Visually. So the main challenge with visual representation of the history is that video production, especially, is expensive. And we're working on videos at the moment as well. But it suggests the difficulty to really make it look well. And that's why there is not so much video content out there where we're going to produce more. But when it comes to how are we going to show it in a way that it's attractive as well for a younger generation, I think our approach is more that we don't. When you look at all the major bread from Switzerland or as well from Gloucet, they have the resources to produce all those high-end videos where they showed the history in a very nice and modern way. Of course, we would like to do that as well, but it's insanely expensive. So we can't. Our approach is much more. And this is something that is so amazing. How many people visit us in the Black Forest as well. We want to be more. The people that are really approachable. We want to connect with our customers. We want to talk. We want to answer to all the questions that they have because we often have the feeling that with the bigger brands, you have sort of this feeling that it's hard to connect because they're so. They try to keep. Yeah, they try to keep this distance. And for us, it's more. if we want to make a visual representation of the history, we usually tell everyone, please visit us in the Black Forest. And we're sure you will have a great time there. And I think as well, the way we talk in our manufacturing is a way that is very open. And that is for us as well, something where we say, we think that we can do in a different way. You know? I think so. No. You do realize that come visit us in the Black Forest kind of says very. Yeah, I'm sorry. It might be very difficult for. There's a little witch in there that she eats children. But we are very happy that some content creators visited us in the past and will as well this year we have a couple of people coming over that will visit us, that will show what we have. And I think that is a very good way of as well telling the story and as well. I mean, there are so many creators, including you out there, that are bringing a a herology in a way to people that has been there a couple of years before and I think with given all those opportunities, all those possibilities. And there is already this movement to bring our history to interested people. Yeah, I was about to say that Bob and Brent are both exceptional content creators that bring a level of quality, visual quality, an audio quality that surpasses a lot of what's on there. So I highly encourage you to get them involved, especially the Calibre de Rist and magazine, the next issue coming out and I think they can definitely help. It's already in the works. So you didn't need the plug then. This is for all those other brands, listen. So Felix, you said that you had to receive some questions on Instagram as well, if you want to maybe share them, answer them. Yeah. So one of the first questions that we received was how do you like for this watch? And of course we love for this watch. And especially the guys, the guys behind the brand, we meet them everywhere. So shout out to the forest guys and as well to for this. Then we received another question, well, how proud are you of the history and everyone there who are helping to continue build on it for the future? Well, it's pride. I don't know if I'm extremely proud of the whole team. It's hard to say I'm proud of the history because you know, a big part of the history. I was a part of, but I feel like there is a legacy that we want to really, I mean, the company is now since 1882, it is more than 140 years old. You know, it feels more like there is maybe as well a certain response to the beach to bring it in a good way into the future. So it will be there in 140 years as well. So when there is the 280 years anniversary that Handhard has, well, a much longer book with all the history inside. So yeah, that's more the way we look at it. No, when you get there, you come back on the podcast and we'll all talk about it. Well, let's see what technologies will keep us alive. Then there was, well, we've received questions onto when certain models will be available again. Please, write us a new video. I think it's a topic for the podcast. And there was one more question that I wanted to bring up. I'm not able to find it right now. Well, I think that's it for it from my side. Very good. Felix, we really appreciate you taking the time for us and our listeners today as we're all a big fan of the brand. It was a lot of fun to chat with you. Thanks again. Thank you so much. Time to calibrate is available anywhere you find good podcasts. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please do hit the like and subscribe. We'd also love to hear from you in the comment section or even in our new Discord channel. Until next time, thanks for listening. [BLANK_AUDIO]