Episode 235: Golf Pride and Orkai Take Center Stage!

It's a 19th hole with Michael Williams. Hey what's up everybody welcome to another edition of the 19th whole Michael Williams here hosting Sherpa bringing you the best of the best in golf and golf lifestyle. This show will be one best. We have two of my favorite people in the whole industry in the show today. First we have Jamie Ledford who is the head of golf pride. He's going to be talking about the illustrious history of golf pride grips, what they are doing, how they got there and what they plan to do in the future. It's going to be a fascinating conversation. I know you're going to love it. So joining us is Deb Bennett from the newly named Orkai products. You may know Orkai Golf bags or Kai is a brand new enterprise that is dedicated not only to golf but to other luxury items. They have had a remarkable period of growth at the outset of their company. They have some of the finest golf bags and other accessories that are available on the market. I'm just fascinated to hear what they have to say about it. There's a whole lot to talk about golf wise and all that sort of thing but I'm just going to get right to it because these two people have a lot of things to say and I'm not going to stand in their way. So why don't you go and get yourself a cold beverage and a crunchy snack and we'll be right here when you get back. Michael Williams, 19th of August. Hi Michael. This is Barbara Nicholas. You got a great voice. We love hearing what you have to say and we wish you the best for many years. Welcome back to the 19th hole. Michael Williams, you're host. There are a number of products that exist in this business that kind of just when you hear the company name, you know exactly what you're talking about both in terms of what they make and the quality at which they manufacture it. I won't go into all the other names because it may be different for you but I know there is one name that certainly works for me and that name is golf pride and joining me today is one of my favorite people in the industry so knowledgeable, so experienced and has some great insights is the president of golf pride James Leopard. James, welcome to the 19th hole. How are you my friend? Good to talk to you. Good to talk to you too. And where are you by the way in the world when I talk to you? When I ask this question, I always get some interesting answers because we're doing sort of the theater of the mind here but where are you located? Yeah, so I'm in a pretty cool place. So our office is at golf pride. I'm in our Global Innovation Center which is here in Piner's North Carolina and it's not just in Piner's somewhere or actually inside the gate so Piner's number eight so we're tucked away right next to this beautiful golf course here. That's where we view most of our work. Okay, mistake on my part. I should have done this interview in person at your office. I'll correct that mistake next time. I won't make it again. And for the uninitiated view who may not have heard of golf pride because we have so many new people coming into the game. That's one of the things I want to talk about. But there may be some who are uninitiated and unfamiliar with golf pride. Give us a quick tour of the mission invasion for golf pride. Oh yeah, sure. And I might just start with a little bit of history because I think it's so unique. Perfect. Golf pride got started in 1949 and back then at that time, all the rip sun clubs were strapped so leather. You know, that people put on there and our founder Thomas Feyweer had this idea. He was living in Akron, Ohio at the time, which is kind of the rubber cap on the world that he had this concept of a slip on rubber grip that he thought would be a better solution. And this like, you know, he straps of strips of leather wrapped around the shaft. And it took him a while to get it off the ground and then to get people to adopt it. For an 11 golf historians out there, Tommy Bolt was like the first like really good player that like converted from leather grips to golf ride grips. And then, you know, shortly thereafter that golf ride slip on rubber grip became the standard. And so today, when you look at like any tour event, like the memorials happening as we're speaking right now, this weekend, usually 80% at least and sometimes, you know, more like 90% of the players that are playing golf ride grips. And they're not playing them on any endorsement dealer or anything like that. They just play them because that's what gets them the most confidence when they, you know, show up for those tournaments. And so we've been this brand that has been serving all of these different golfers for decades now. So a lot of people have grown up with golf ride. I grew up with golf ride when I started playing, you know, you know, back in the day. And so it has this like really great connection to golfers over time. We feel like we're probably serving depending on how you count it. Like our fifth or sixth generation of golfers right now. And our main purpose, you know, what we're trying to do, you know, a lot of people look at the grip and they, they may say, well, okay, that kind of presents as handle for the golf club. But when you're inside golf ride and you're involved in a lot of the development that we're doing, we really see the grip as equipment for your hands. And so the inside, you know, golf ride work that we see is a lot more like maybe the footwear business where, you know, everybody's feet are different, everybody's hands are different. You know, there's a functional piece we're trying to solve. There's a intangible kind of like field component like how people want that to feel. And then there's a more and more bit of a styling, you know, piece to it as well. And so we've grown up over that time, you know, early on most of our business was probably selling grips to titleists and paying and tailor made and companies like that. Now 80% of our revenue comes from golfers wanting to play a certain golf ride grip that they've become really attached to. And so a lot of people aren't used to thinking about golf ride this way, but we're actually at most like golf shops that you're going to find. We're probably like the fifth or sixth largest equipment brand in that shop. You know, it's so interesting. The things that you mentioned, I want to start with something that has to do with existing golfers, a trend that has taken flight in recent years. And that's the custom club making thing. And it seems to me as though that people have a choice. If you're buying off off the rack, if you will, you know, you'll take whatever comes with that club and, you know, it functions perfectly fine. But so many people are getting custom fit either for their first set of clubs or for a set after that. And they are choosing your product from that. Are you seeing that? Because that's something that I see to be a trend in the industry. For sure. You know, you're seeing custom clubs in general are still growing and growing mix of all clubs produced. You know, if you go way back in a time machine, like back to the big birthday days, you know, like most clubs or stock, you know, people are buying big bertha or they're growing fine, great, big bertha. And they're seeing like immediate improvement just by picking that up off the rack. But based on, you know, kind of recent changes to the equipment rules of golf, it's kind of hard right now. And, you know, to just buy something off the rack and have it make you a needy better. There's even argument by the wrong thing off the rack, you know, you could get worse. Yeah. The kind of current, you know, trend right now is like to performance really lies in getting the equipment really dialed in for you, you know. And so, custom has been growing for a number of years right now when we talked about some of our customers like Callaway and so on, you know, what their percentage of clubs are that are customized in some way, a huge growing and growing and growing. And it doesn't show any sign of stopping. And I think that's because that's where the performance gains are, you know, is to make those small tweaks that allow you to hit it longer and hit it straighter. And then when they do, this isn't true in 100% of the cases, but in a lot of the cases, they have a grip that they really like, that they want to see come on those custom clubs. And we love that because we think you're going to get a better experience because even though we make most of the grips that go on, what we call kind of the stock clubs that are on the shelf that you can go buy, because they're stock, you know, they're all standard sized grips. And what's really interesting is 100% of the grips that we put on stock clubs are standard sized, but out in the world, only 49% of what we sell out in the world is standard sized. So that means that that stock grip, you know, probably has a 50/50 chance of being a wrong grip for you. And so that custom trend to your point is like where the performance gains are. for golfers and like we're trying to be there so that that last bit of performance game you're getting the right grip and the right size, you know, the right kind of, you know, performance technology for you. So that's been a great trend for us over the last few years. Yeah, it seems as to me as though golfers are becoming much more aware and much more proactive if you will about getting something that fits and is right for them rather than trying to make themselves fit the product and what you have is people not only playing better but enjoying the game more and when you talk about enjoying the game more, the other trend that we see of course is this huge number of people who have come into the game post pandemic. We have record numbers on courses, record numbers of rounds, all kinds of things that point to the the health of the game. How is that affecting you? Are you getting, are you seeing more clubs being sold, which means more grips being sold? Are you seeing just more of everything? Is it holding steady? How does that really affect you as a component maker for a golf club? Yeah, so I think it's a great trend. I mean, it's really fun to see golf probably has it. I don't know, I don't know if golf has been cooler than right now, although it might be I was watching the Memorial Tournament yesterday and they were showing images of the first Memorial Tournament in 1968 when Roger Moldewein and he had this like these patchwork payments and he's like, you know, like really I had caught her like, you know, penguin shirt, like maybe golf was pretty cool back then, you know, but like it's definitely having its moment right now and I think it's good for golf. You're seeing a lot of different people come into the game. You're seeing a lot of different people enjoy the game in different ways. You know, it could be on the golf course, it could be, you know, some alternative golfing venue, screen golf, top golf, these types of things. So I think that's tremendous because like it's a great game, but it doesn't always have to be six hours on a Saturday, you know, to enjoy it. What we're seeing is not that, you know, more people coming into the game, like in the U.S. I think the data shows that for the last several years, particularly since the pandemic, like you're seeing, you know, one to two-ish percent more people playing golf on green graphs every year, which is really good because for a long time it was going the opposite direction. Yeah. It moves you know, two or three percent of people a year. The growth has been more on kind of the off course, if you will, you know, like enjoyment of the game. I think a lot of people assume that that is causing like club sales to go up. In fact, we don't see that, you know, club sales peaked in 2012. They had a little bump in the pandemic. And now, you know, they're declining again by a few percent every year. And I think what we're seeing is that even though there are more people playing the game, the length of time between which people are buying clubs is getting longer and longer. The clubs are made better. The performance gains year over year are smaller. And so people are just like holding on to those clubs more and more. So, right, we're doing more, what we call the use of the word OEM, like the original equipment manufacturer. We're doing more share of that business than we ever have. But it's probably half the volume that it was when we were here in 2012. And so a lot of people don't really appreciate that big correction in the equipment business. What's really helped us is that people are starting to see groups as equipped for their hands, not just a handle that comes along with their club. So all of the growth that we have seen is in golfers, you know, either deciding they want to play a different size or a different technology like line technology and then really becoming attached. So that grip and then either A, like you said, wanting it to be on a custom order that they made or B, just realizing that it's been a couple of years since they've re-grip their clubs and they want fresh grips on there. So now 80% of our business comes from either, you know, specifying a branded golf ride grip for your custom club order or just wanting to refresh the grips on your bag so that you're playing with fresh grips. That's where we've seen all of the growth in our business. Because you would think the equipment business would be going up with people coming into the game, but the reality is that the time between purchase cycles is getting longer and so the actual total volume at best is flat. But like what we see is that's still kind of like trending down a little bit each year. It's very interesting. We're talking to James Ledford, the president of golf pride here on the 19th whole Michael Williams Stylier host. Here's your chance to brag a little bit, Jamie. What's your biggest selling product? What do people choose more than anything else? Yeah, in various different ways, you know, you can talk about that, but you know, our most visible flagship product is what we call our MCC product. So that's the grip that a lot of people see on two works, the most visible. It has a cord, upper hand, and usually a rubber bottom end is colored in some way. You know, we'll replace that grip. So he gets a ton of visibility. That's by far, you know, like our flagship kind of most popular grip. And we put a lot of our most advanced technology into that grip. So a lot of people may have become aware recently we launched a line max as a new technology in that grip. And what it does is it is essentially an external rib on the back of that grip that even if your eyes were closed, you would put that club in exactly the same place in your hands every time even if your eyes were open. That ridge sits in the crevices of the bottom of your hand and just make sure that that face is aligned always exactly in the same place relative to your hands every time you pick up a club. And so it's like little things like that. We get excited about trying to bring that to the market because it's just this, you know, kind of this extra bit of performance benefit for the golfer. And in that one, we were really excited about it because we tried to find like really novel ways to take it right up to the to the edge of like what is allowable by the rules of golf. And golfer's have really responded well to it. So like that's our flagship product and that's one of our flagship technologies that's done really well recently. So we have a lot of things that we see now in the news about the distance of the ball and things like that. So we have the ball technology coming under discussion. If not under fire, we have the coefficients on clubs coming under discussion under fire. Is there anything that sort of controversial? Is there anything new or I would say controversial about grip technology that has a people at the RNA and the USDA given you phone calls? You know, I don't I don't think certainly not in the same way of like, you know, hot driver heads or golf balls. I mean, obviously those are getting a lot of attention right now. Yeah. When we did something like a line max, we tried to do it in a really open and collaborative way, you know, particularly with the USDA who's like here in Pynersht with us, you know, so that like we weren't surprising them and they weren't surprising us, you know, because like we were interpreting the rules on a certain way, we want to make sure that that interpretation was was going to work for them because, you know, they're trying I think my words they're trying to make sure that the game is still a skill based game, you know, and that the technology doesn't cross a line and give you like such an edge, you know, that it's not quite the game that it was. And so there maybe could be a place in the future where grip technology is kind of in the cross areas like golf ball technology, but I think right now, the way we've been approaching it, it's a benefit to the golfer, but it's not something that, you know, is creating a lot of controversy right now with the USGM, you know, we'd like to keep it that way, because we get like their ways a lot of times for the grip technology they would say, like it shows up in the data, but not like, you know, some of the golf ball issues I don't think I think a lot of times it shows up in how you feel. So one of the things we talk about at golf prize, there's physics and physical performance attributes of different sizes and different grip technologies, and we try to measure those and be clear about what those are, but then there's a bit of an intangible benefit to grips that I think is really unique in our category. You really don't see anywhere else, which is when you put that grip in your hands because it's touching your bare hands, it does make you feel a certain way. And one of the things that we talk about when we're designing grips is we want that to make you feel confident, and we know as golfers, like when we step up to the ball, if we're feeling confident because this thing in our hands, like feels really solid, feels really good, We'll put a better smile. swing on it. I think particularly if we stay in that place where we're like really helping golfers feel better about how they're stepping up to the golf ball. That's such an intangible piece. I think it would be hard for that to end up without of the rules of golf right now. And there's actually a lot going on there. What can really help you feel confident putting a good swing on the ball. So I think that is like for me one of the exciting bits of of grip design. It's not pure physics. There's like a psychology to getting the right fit as well. Which I just don't think really is the same in any other equipment categories. Yeah. You mentioned just to close out here. You mentioned customization. Kind of you alluded to that as one of the things that is becoming more of a part of the attachment between the golfer and the golf club. Do you have lots of options for customization terms? Certainly in terms of size, but in terms of color and style and thing like that. Things like that do you have those sorts of options available as well? Yeah, for sure. You know, and I think in some ways, if I'm honest like our challenge is to help people make sense of all the choices out there. I think we have, you know, maybe not all available in any one store, but there's I think 200 different grip options to choose from out there. And I think part of our challenge is to take all of those different options and try and organize them in a way that's a bit easier for the golfer to kind of work through it. I worry to be honest a little bit. We've done so much to put more options out there that when the average golfer, let's say walks into a PJ tour superstar golf galaxy or a golf shop like that, it's almost too much. So if you're inside golf ride right now, we spend a lot of time talking about how you know, maybe not reduce the options, but simplify the presentations. Yeah, it's a little easier for people to work through all those options. Yeah, that's really well said to simplify the way that you go about your choice. But there's certainly many, many options out there in terms of product, in terms of sizing, in terms of colors, all those sorts of things. For people who want to get about selecting their grips for their clubs, where can they go online to do so? Yeah, you know, golf ride.com is a great place to start. There's a lot of really good content there. And we try to improve it, you know, every time we come up with a better way to kind of present it. And then really what's a ton of fun for me, I mean, this isn't, you know, it's easy for everybody, but we hear at the Global Innovation Center at Pine or Summary, we're open to the public and we now see 20 or 30 golfers a day coming in to see us. We have a retail shop, which is we think the best place in the world to get your clubs re-gripped. And the way those guys take care of golfers who come in, maybe for the first time, this is like the deepest conversation they've ever had. Yeah, you know, up the grips, if you're anywhere near Pinehurst, it's a really fun experience. And before too long, we're going to be opening up a VIP fitting experience for golfers, where by appointment, it will spend an hour just like working with you, you know, to get you an exactly the right grip, going through a number of different options, you know, having you kind of swing each of those options and figure out like what's helping you, you know, feel better, what's helping you to live with a clubhead better to the ball. So we're, that's kind of in development right now and we're excited to eventually bring that and open that up to the public. So for anywhere near Pinehurst, come see us at Pinehurst and Aubrey. It's fun to see people come who may have played golf right a long time, but just having a look on that deep on the grips and we love seeing people come see us. Well, I don't know about anybody else listing, but you had me at Hello, we said come to the year number eight. I will definitely do that. And please keep us posted about when that shop is open because we'll do a show live from there to celebrate the opening of that store, which I think is going to be amazing. Jamie, thanks so much for taking the time for doing this. You guys are as always, you know, you have such a great history, but you're still cutting edge technology leading us forward in the game. I still appreciate you spending the time and even though we just finished, I can't wait to have you back on. That was always enjoyed talking to you, Michael. Yeah, we really appreciate it. That's Jamie Ledford, the president of golf pride, you know, as I'm standing here, listening to, to, listening to Jamie talk and I'm thinking about all the first lessons that I got. They all talk about grip stance alignment, grip stance alignment, stance alignment. And when you think about it, that grip is the very first thing. How you touch the club, how you make that stick and extension of yourself. So the only thing you're touching is the grip is the golf pride grip. And they have done so much over the years to make sure that feeling is one of confidence for you because when you're confident in that grip, how you're touching the club, everything else goes from that. If you can't feel confident holding the club, how are you going to make a swing? How are you going to make anything happen positively? So I really admire guys who take the time to make that, that only connection that we have to the golf club, a, a, a purposeful one and a useful one and a comfortable one and a confidence building one. So really cheers to those guys at golf pride and everything they do. I can't wait to see what they got going down there at Pinehurst number eight. Literally, I'm going down there. I'm telling you now, we're going to take a quick break and we'll come back with more golf and stuff. Michael Williams 19. [Music] Welcome back to the 19th whole Michael Williams, your very willing host. Some of the segments I get to do on this show, I do out of the sense of service to the industry and that sort of thing. Some of them are just plain fun and I just enjoyed them. This next segment falls under the ladder category. I have been looking forward to this one for some time because I very much have admired the products that my next guest has produced over the last years. They have been head turners. Every single product has been in head turners. Something that you would want to have, something that you envy. You don't want your friends to have. You just want them. They're so cool and so elegant. The company is making sort of a, a, a turn, an upturn, if you will. And I'm just so excited to talk about it. Please join me in welcoming the co-founder of Orkai Deb Bennett. Deb, welcome to the 19th whole. How are you? I'm great Michael and thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to speak on this platform and I'm really excited about our conversation today. Well, so am I. As I said before, the products that you have produced under under another name, a previous name, you can talk about that, have been so elegant and so just noteworthy. You have earned the right to transform this company into what is coming to, which is a general lifestyle thing. Before we go any further about what's coming up in the future. Let's talk a little bit about the past. Tell me a little bit about your upbringing, where you grew up, what you've done before, and how you got into golf. Sure. Well, again, thank you Michael. I'm always, I'm never at a loss for words. So I'm always happy to talk about, to talk about where I came from, which I'm very proud of. And it's sort of one of those stories I, I was born and raised in a small town in West Virginia called Braften. And Braften is about 20 miles south of Morgan to town, which most people know is where West Virginia University is. And I went to West Virginia University for my master's program. And I had always wanted to move to the DC area. I'm not quite sure why, but I just always wanted to go. And right after college, I sort of got myself planted a little bit. And I moved over to DC and I spent 25 years in my career in DC. I started out in government work, which it took me about nine months to figure out that was not what I wanted to do. And then I moved into nonprofit, which in the DC area, you know, there are over 30,000 nonprofits there. So opportunities were incredible. And especially for a young person coming out of college and grad school, it just provided a lot of different, different directions to go. And I did choose nonprofit for several years. I then moved over into financial services with a very well known financial services company, who eventually went public. And I was with them as their chief information officer for five years, a little over five years. I'm there. I am. ended up moving into higher education, actually private education in the Bethesda, Maryland area, enjoyed that very much, and sort of got the bug to stay in education, so then moved into higher education. In higher education, very different environment, and I really got the bug to stay in it. There was a lot of need for it, so I had several opportunities as a chief information officer to move around in higher education. I spent about 20 years in higher education, and then I worked for a company who was housed in Chicago, and they ended up convincing me to come from DC to Chicago, and I spent about seven years there, and then eventually said, "I think it's time to semi-retire, and I'll think I'll have a retire, but semi-retire." And I ended up moving down here to Florida to the Fort Lauderdale area, which I'm now in Boca Raton, Florida, and I did some consulting over the last nine years in tech, but my heart really lies within the golf industry, and there's a whole story behind that, Michael. I mean, I played golf since high school moved into collegiate play, and actually it was my secret weapon, my entire career, just to be able to play golf. And if folks would just realize how important of a tool that is, and it's not about how well you play golf, it's about the camaraderie and the connectivity that it brings people together and creates conversations that are sometimes more difficult to have at a conference table, and I just would not have wanted to do anything else but that. And you'll notice I don't talk a lot about the technology, but it's really about partnerships and things that really can push your business forward versus just the game of golf. This is really fascinating to me because you talk about the obviously distinguished career that you had, and then golf being an underlying part of that sort of a a commonality and a way to to bring people together, and that's what the game is known for. So it's kind of fascinating to me that you have worked that into obviously a very successful career, and now you've taken that, set it aside, and created these products that are really unique in one of a kind. Talk about how you got into the business of creating golf bags. What I think are some of the best golf bags in the world. Well, as I've said, Michael, I mean, I have spent most of my life playing golf, and again, at times pretty well, at other times, didn't get a chance to play as much, but again, it's sort of like riding a bike, you just get back on, and again, you have to understand what golf is really about. It's not so much about becoming good at golf. No one's good at golf. Even those who practice 16 hours a day, they can still shank it into the trees like the best of us. But again, it's what the meaning behind golf and getting out, and as you know, during COVID, folks began to really understand the power of golf and what it brings in a lot of different aspects of our life. And when I was here in Florida, my business partner and I were going to start a very small business to support young women in the area of technology. That was sort of something I wanted to do. And we were looking for, because we both are at golfers, we were looking to find a golf bag that we could utilize the real estate that's available on a golf bag to promote our new company. And it was one of those stories where you can't find what you need, then you make it. And we started out with one golf bag. We set to a friend of ours at dinner one evening. Would you be interested? We know you're an avid golfer. We think we're going to toy with this whole concept of creating golf bags for exactly what people want, not what we want, but what people want. If we wanted it, other people want to want it too. And he said, sure, I'll buy one. And it literally Michael started with one golf bag. And we were so nervous. Erica, who's my business partner, our background is in PR and marketing and television. And again, my background, you know, I don't even have a degree in technology, but one of those people who sort of fell into it. And we know a lot about our fields, but we knew nothing about creating a golf bag, the logistics of it, the shipping, the manufacturing, that was the big piece of it. And all the things that come with it. But you know, we said, we can do this. We can really do this. And we spent a lot of time. And in 2019, May of 2019, we started a company called Orca Golf, Orca, like the whale. And of course, you know what happened in early 2020. So we took that opportunity to step back and really hone those skills and learn as much as we could. And we relaunched in 2023 with some incredible products. And we pride ourselves on our products. We've always stayed away from the word luxury, but we really are a luxury brand. It's about our clients. It's not about us. And we're a fully white service club. We provide white glove service to all of our clients. Yeah. So the golf bags were the initial product. And what you didn't have a lot of experience in doing that. How now what what features did you want to provide in this particular bag that have translated to the popularity which which they'd been received? Sure. So I look back on all of this. There's so much in the story to tell. But again, being a golfer and understanding the needs of a golfer, that was a good place to start. And not creating a product that we didn't have any idea what was it that they wanted. And convenience was one thing functionality more than anything. And the one thing we will absolutely never move away from is quality. So we take our time. You could go overseas and you can purchase pre-made bags and put your name on them. And we just don't do that. Every bag that you see that we either house in our retail shop or you see in some other distributors or wherever we are, those have all been designed by Erica. She does all the the designing for us. And one of the things I will tell you, we released a bag this year in late 2025 or 2026, that's a very light bag. And we were able to meet our quality standards and still off that bag at a price of around $275, which is unheard of in the industry. And that bag was designed based on conversations that Erica and I had an opportunity to attend the Masters. And we spent about two hours with a couple of the caddies at Augusta National and said to them, "What's important to you as a caddy who's carrying a bag? What do you like what you not like?" And that's how we ended up designing that bag. So we're not sitting in a vacuum thinking we know everything. We're out talking to players. We're out whether they're professional or just or everyday player or the professional caddies. And that's how we tend to design. We added our additional products this year, our 10 accessories because those were being requested by our clients. So we really listened to our clients. We're not trying to just create products and hope folks will come and buy them. The bags have been popular. They've been like award-winning popular. They are so special. What was the impetus to start the additional lines that have now changed your name to, literally changed the name of the company? What drove you to do that? It really is Michael, our clients. We listened to what our clients want. A lot of times, when you're setting up a brand and looking at e-commerce, you're trying to think, what is it people want? Well, you don't always know and you're guessing. But if you listen to your clients, then it will kind of guide you where you need to go. And because we've been able to expand now globally and we have some global partnerships now, we're able to offer a wider number of products which all of our products are customizable as well. So not only can you purchase a retail bag and personalize it, which is different than customizing. Personalizing would be you purchase a bag and you want your name or a logo put on the bag. And that's after the bag has been produced. We don't do mass production, but we will have so many of a bag in our collection. And then obviously our custom line is where you help determine what color is zipper you want, what type of rivets you want, what do you want on the bag, do you want different color panels, do you want leather, do you want this, do you want that. But it really comes down to regardless of what we do. Everything is a quality at a certain point and we just will not jeopardize that by creating a very inexpensive product. I'm just going through it. - You know, this is all fascinating to me, because you have, so you have this product that is of a unique quality, a very high quality, and so many people are going for the mass produce, get it out there, get it quickly, that sort of thing. You know, we know what I'm talking about. We don't have to name any names, but you have this, and then you have sort of this other influence, which is this huge number of people that are coming into the game. - We know that golfers, we have more golfers than ever. We're getting more golf, more rounds, the numbers are crazy around the game. That probably helps you, doesn't it? This new group of people who are more concerned about, let's say the golf lifestyle, the necessarily golf writ large. - Correct. So here's the little thing that a lot of folks are missing Michael, is we have been designing products with the younger generations in mind. You know, I'm very conservative when it comes to golf. I like to see folks dress very professionally. I still believe in colored shirts. I still believe in wearing golf shoes, and those who are wearing, you know, tennis shoes, I say knock yourself out, but the bottom line is, you're gonna learn, you get up into the 40s and 50s, why you have those spikes on your shoes. But anyhow, the younger generations want what they want, and they want quality, and they don't wanna look like everyone else, which is why creating a custom product for them or giving them exactly what they want, really is the secret sauce. I'm not giving away any trade secrets here. Look, there's enough business for everyone, right? We just happen to really focus on our clients and we ensure that every product that goes out is a high quality product, and we make it still affordable because what you, if you know anything about the younger generations, they will spend the money, especially if it's exactly what they want. And I sort of equate this to what I experienced as a leader in technology, at one point, I have 300 engineers in nine countries, and I had to keep all of them happy. And my biggest pain point at that point was learning how to provide leadership to the millennial group, because they wanted me to tell them how to do everything. That was a big change for me. And what I had to come realize is, it's okay, that's their generation, and I have to adapt to a certain point. I can help them in certain ways, but I also have to help lead them. So why I bring that up is, I can't say, this is the way golf's always been, here's the product, you either want it or you don't want it. That's the wrong attitude today. Not all bags have to be black, blue, dark green, and just the traditional looking bag. We don't do bags that have built in things into them for your phones and stuff like that. There are companies out there who do that. What we try to do is we try to provide a bag that is lasting and that when you are on the course, it starts that initial conversation. And that's what we hear all the time. We just completed a bag for a gentleman who is at the top of his field in dirt bikes and his buddies who met him on the course two days ago were flooding our social media with that bag is sick. Which in there up in the means gold, right? It's a little hot for me to hear a bag sick, but it's it is. And it's nice to hear that feedback and it's not about us being the best of what we're doing, which I do believe we are because, again, it's what that client wants. I look at some bags we've done, I'm thinking, boy, I wouldn't carry that, but that's not me. That's they are. And again, it gives them an opportunity to start a conversation. And once you start that conversation on the first tee, the rest of it is about camaraderie. And yeah, you hit a bad shot. And everyone wants why you're gonna hit that great shot, brings you back. But it really is about the story book and what's important in your life. And I could tell you hundreds of stories of people calling us after receiving their bags and being in tears, a gentleman because of what Eric was able to incorporate on his bag. I did. It's important. That's just so fascinating to me. The emotionality, the emotional link in the game. And people draw so much identity from who they are on the course. And probably an ordinary amount of that is based on the score. And now you're taking it and making it more about who you are, what you bring to the course. You know what you're. It's an experience, Michael. It's all about experiences today. And one of the things we did was we wanted to eliminate the name golf from our brand. So we could become more of the global lifestyle company that we're creating. And we see it as an intelligent evolution of what used to be Orca Golf, which is now Orkai. And the Kai is again, more the eye we focus on the eye for intelligence. But it's where legacy craftsmen shit kind of meets advanced design thinking and where every product is designed to carry a story not just a logo. You should be personally branding. I've gone out and spent thousands of dollars on clubs. I don't need to continue advertising that. Yeah. Folks look at your bag first, then they look at your golf, your driver, then they look at your shoes. Those are the three areas people look at. And that's what starts the conversations. You are so, so right about that. I was, I was already writing this down because I've had this in my, these thoughts in my head. You're the first person who I've heard say that, heard them say it out loud. These things that I've had in my head. You are absolutely right on those things. And obviously that has translated into success in your product line. Very briefly, talk about the things that are in the new line. What sort of products do you have in addition to golf bags? So we've been again listening to our clients. I mean, every little detail down to zipper pulls, to all these little things that again, we don't want our bag to last 10 years because we'd love for you to come back. And we have a lot of repeat people because of what we can offer. But we're always looking at, is this pocket placed properly so that if it's on the cart, can you get to it easily as the zipper going the right way? Is it, there are all of these things we're constantly looking at. And people are really good about giving us feedback. And one of the things we always request from every client we have is, please, give us the feedback. Good or bad, it doesn't make any difference. That's how we learn, we don't know everything. But what we do know is golf and we know what users like who are using the bags. And I will tell you one of the things we're very proud of, Michael, in seven years, we have not had bags returned. Wow. Because we didn't like them. And our custom line, because of our process and because of the client interaction with the designer, the client, 100% of the time, I said, oh my god, I love my bag. I mean, it's such a great feeling to know that we captured what it was that they truly wanted. And we've made bags for Jack Nicholas, as you know, and be every day, golfer. And it's nice to hear someone like Barbara, Nicholas, who said to us, you ladies are the first ladies who ever got the color yellow correct on the bag for us. Wow. Because we spend a lot of time. And it is time consuming. But it's a good feel because we make our clients feel good. I'm absolutely fascinated, not only by the products themselves, but by you personally, and the story that you told for it. But we got a jump. Before we do, I want you to give me the location on the web where people can go to find out more and maybe make an order or two. Sure. There's a couple of ways to reach us right now. Obviously, we're going through the transition for those who have known about us through ORCA, ORCA. C-A-Golf.com. You can still reach us there. It will let you know that we have rebranded as ORCA. And once you reach that, it'll send you over to the new site. And the new site is ORCAI.life. That's it. I like it. life. life. life. life. Because again, it's all about your life. It's not-- we don't want to be seen as a commercial brand. We are about our clients. And it's always been about our clients. Well, you won't see it or begs much. I gotta tell you, you are making me want to make this a two-part interview, you know, and do this over a couple of episodes. I like the way I said, I'm never gonna lost for words, I'm always happy to, it's something we're very passionate about and you have to be passionate to do what we're doing. Well, I'll keep some time set aside because there may be a book or two written about you sometime in the very near future. Thank you, Mom. I guarantee that. Thank you so much for spending the time. Congratulations on the evolution of the company and be sure to mark out your calendar because you're gonna come back and tell us some more about what you're doing in the future, okay? Absolutely, Michael. Again, thank you very much for the opportunity and I'll stand by ready in time to talk about O'Kyre. Roger that. That is Deb Bennett, the CEO, Kosi Eo at O'Kyre and number one, just the passionate, the combination of her passion and her intelligence is just almost unique, not only in a golf world, but in any world. So to listen to her talk is just fascinating for me. It's hard for me to be a host during those periods because I just want to listen. It's just fantastic. But the product themselves, when you see them, the unique beauty of these products is really something special and she has connected clearly with a feeling that's in the industry that it's not about your score, it's about who you are and expressing yourself and their products at O'Kyre give you the perfect opportunity to express who you are and not only your love for your game, but your love of life. And so it's so interesting me that her domain name is dot life instead of dot com because it is about an appreciation of celebration of life, isn't it? All right. So I'm going to stop before I get too preaching and all this thing, but you know, check out these products, you will love them. We're going to be back. Take a break. We're going to come back with more golf and other stuff. Please stay with us. Michael Williams, 19th home. Well, as you say in the business, that's it and that's all for the information of the United States. I think my third special guest, Jamie Leppard, the golf prize with Fast and End Story. His personally is, and the story of golf prize is of course one of the best in the industry. It's one of those names where you think, Gryps, you think, golf prize, they have done a fantastic job and they have more to come in the future. Also thank you to Deb Bennett of Orkai, what an amazing story. What an amazing period of growth that they have had and it's all due to the unique perspective that they have on products. It was so interesting to talk to her and to get her viewpoint on how the company has gotten to where it is and how they're going to get to where they're going in the future. I can't wait to see what they do next. It's really, really special. Thank you so much to both of those guests. For joining us, you can find this show and all the shows of the 19th hole on great podcast, carriers like Apple Podcasts, on SoundCloud, on Spotify and wherever. Magnificent podcasts are hosted. Thank you as always for joining us. We do it all for you. Join us again next week for another episode. It's going to be full of fun and thought and golf for sure. In the meantime, the weather is wonderful. Go out and hit some golf balls and, you know, when you do, try your level best to hit them straight. My full Williams 19 gold.