Episode 233: Chris Reed

Hi, it's Joel Lowry. Welcome to another episode of the Global Lithium Podcast. Today is episode 233. My guest is Chris Reed, the CEO of Neomedals. Chris has been on the podcast. He was actually on episode three and he's been on a couple other times. He is one of my favorite voices in the Lithium industry. Chris is from a multi-generational western Australia mining family. He entered the industry long before most people that are listening to this podcast. We talk about it in the prior episodes. He was behind Mount Marion, made actually two profitable exits from Mount Marion once in regards to the ownership interest he had and the second with respect to the offtake interest he had. From the upstream you went into urban mining. We talk about how that worked out for Neomedals and now Chris is back with a potential brine project in Utah which fascinated me. Listeners to the podcast know that I am not a big fan of many of the brine projects that we have in the western United States which I tend to view as more hope in dreams than real potential and I respect anybody that's willing to risk their capital and their time to try to bring Lithium to market but you don't hear a lot of the projects getting a voice on this podcast. It's different when Chris Reed's involved as it just shows you the level of respect I have for him. There's also some pot-ash involvement in this particular project. We will talk about that as well but as much as the project in Utah peaked my interest I'm always interest in getting Chris's perspective on the market, on where it's going, on supply, on demand. From my perspective Chris Reed is one of the handful of voices that I respect the most in the Lithium industry. So without further ado Chris Reed. Chris Reed, welcome back to the Global Lithium podcast. Thank you very much Joe. It's been far too long. It has been far too long because it's actually been four years and we are in a much different world than we were in early 2022. You have always been from my perspective a thought leader in this space even though you are also probably of all the people that have been on this podcast the person with your fingers in the most pies. Let's first get your overall impression is to where we are in the Lithium market in 2026. Yeah. Well, I have had a look at the market from the bottom up. There's an upstreet producer and from the top down as a recycler. I got to say I did like the bottom up a little bit more. Yeah, I mean where we are in 26. I think the last time I did you always bump into November but you know during last year when we're at fast markets you know everyone's crying in their beer it's $10,000 a ton and it's end times. You know I think where the highs are getting higher and the lows of each cycle are getting higher. So I think we're still we still remain in that long term uptrend this been my fourth and it's probably your sixth cycle. You know I think I can see that the Chinese of you know their their stoppiles or the inventories aren't what they should be. People are starting to get nervous about future supply. I think that's positive but for everyone certainly in Australia down here we're always focused on this budget main price and that's obviously driven by the chemical price. So you know I like where we are in the market. You know we've always had a pretty I think disciplined view on if the best place to be long term is obviously in the bottom end of the sort of cost curve and hence why we've looked to going into our own Brian project. E-Sleep better not. Well let's let's talk about your sleep patterns. The last time we talked four long years ago I mean it's not the last time we talked this last time you were on the podcast. You were very very bullish on urban mining. Yeah and the thought process was I think really driven by a market that was not as dominated by the Chinese as it is now. Did China's emerging and continued dominance? Was that part of the reason why you have exited what you were doing in Europe in the urban mining space or was it something else? Yeah I mean look the from a very very high level we just saw the the business different from our partners and and and basically sold back to them. So you know the flow sheet that we developed in sort of 2016-27 was really around NMC and at that stage you know Europe and the car makers you know they had all grand plans and you know the governments were backstopping them and they were offering incentives and funding this massive retooling from internal combustion to EVs and we thought well we know how well one we know how hard it is to do anything in the lithium world from developing mines to developing downstream processes to to building battery plants. So when you there be a lot of scrap and that that reduces a percentage over time but the volume would grow so we thought well that's great so we we you know develop that technology and I think you know there there have been slowdowns in the penetration I mean when you have a look at the the Chinese started from the cheap cars and moved up the the European car maker started with the expensive cars and moved down and I've got to say I think the Chinese strategy has probably worked better. I think you know the the transition to LFP you know had we sort of known that by the end of 22 that the Chinese had fostered such a huge LFP production capacity. I think the the old Quebec Hydro LFP patents I think expired in 2021 and from like 2019 they were funding battery makers to to build these plants in advance of those patents laxing and they've just they built up that stockpile of LFP and then walked away from the market in December 22 and then we just watched the Trump for Christumble and then you have a look at LFP and the penetration and we didn't have a flow sheet for LFP we we have now developed a flow sheet for LFP but it's just early days but yeah that that the business and the plant in Germany tailored for NMC and and then when everything sort of the German Avert what did you German the European EV the penetration rate because the Chinese penetration right into Europe went up but maybe the the intent or the speed at which the car makers were going to convert to EV is really backed off. We just saw well the business was sort of we had cash flow but you know we weren't we weren't a break even and the volumes and the the timeline extended and the volume projection slowed down and the prices slowed down so you had a double whammy on what we thought the business might be worth and at that at that juncture we felt that best that our partners owned the business and continued with that. If you just take a step back and look at not just what you try to do in recycling but recycling in general in an LFP world yeah in the west recycle without subsidies Yeah, look, I reckon we can. So, you know, we've developed a flow sheet that will pretty much just suggest the lithium and leave the iron and phosphate as a solid. But the lithium, you know, being able to selectively leach the lithium off it, we have that in the R&D phase at the moment. I mean, we're not breaking a nick to get back in there. I'd be much happier licensing that to, you know, an LFP cathode producer or cell producer or car company. Well, as you travel around the world and talk to people, what do you think the prospects are for LFP production outside of China? Because it's been a long, a nano one's been trying to do it now for over a decade. You just had METRA-CAM laying off people. It's not an easy road. Well, none of it's easy, you know, from developing the mines. I mean, everyone sort of pushes you to get into production early and, you know, there's probably not enough test work and not enough engineering. And, you know, they're pretty bumpy to start off with. It certainly was for us because there was only green bushes and we'd, you know, we'd develop with minres. You know, a concentrated twice as big on a grain field deposit, you know, it was bumpy, but, you know, we got it to work. But then you have a look at just the conversion, Joe, in the West. Like, you know, I'm really keen to see how the Tethyl lithium guys are getting that alkaline process, you know, I think if we look down under here, the superpowers haven't covered themselves in glory, converting the same rocks from Australia into chemicals in Australia. But, you know, maybe it's once you pass this budget mine over the equator, it gets an easier to process. Well, it's interesting because we talked four years ago. Tethyl was already in the process of building that converter and we still, we hear it's operating, but I'm not sure when it gets to 50,000 tons of LCE if ever. So it's tough. Yeah, look, absolutely. And then your point is, you know, can we make LFP in the West? You know, I guess it was pioneered in the West if you think of that perfect buy-truck. And the Chinese have been able to scale that unbelievably. And now it's the dominant, you know, battery tathlete. Well, it was only about seven or eight years ago that the LFP maiden Quebec was actually better than most of the LFP maiden China and then it flipped. And the cost of that process in Candy Act was too high once the competition heated up. Yeah, I think, you know, how do you compete? Okay, so the Chinese have got cheaper labor. You know, but in North America, you know, you can have hydropower or, you know, certainly down in Utah, there's cheap power. I don't know the answer. Other than to say it's harder in the West. Okay. I think we can all, I think everybody that's listening to this podcast could probably agree that it is harder in the West. But let's just then segue to your, you were busted on the Brian guys pretty hard the last time we talked and you say, all this Australia's had to keep the LFP industry in balance as best they could with Spadjemean and where are the Brian guys? And now you're going to become a Brian guy, I guess. So yeah. I think, you know, the Brian guys with the existing flow sheet, you know, remote and adult to cheat, you know, I mean, their business has got harder. And then how do you double and triple, you know, their production? I think the Chinese built the converters that need to be fed. And that demand allowed other producers to come into the market. They're Australian companies. They've gone out and did the same thing in Australia that they did into Africa. You know, I think as soon as the DSO market became a real thing, you know, as soon as you had DSO from Australia, then you've got these African guys looking for white rocks that they can pick up. And I want you to start looking for right rocks. You'll find more white rocks. And then you have a look at, you know, Africa came out and know where, you know, you had becautive for years, but it was small. And then all of a sudden, you know, you had a massive chunk of LCA coming out of Africa. And that really was the story, I guess, in the last cycle that all of that sort of came on. You know, I'm not sure where the second wave of African stuff, I don't think it'll be as impactful as perhaps the current stuff, but you know, having said that, there are some monsters in Africa that sort of sit there. I know the C-Gin guys are getting cracking up my nine-night. That's what'll let me, that'll be about half a million tons when they ramp that up. And they're putting their own railway in, you know what I mean? These guys are playing a long game. But you know, for us, we developed that E-Lite technology with Minres and you know, we've piloted it for Rio Tinto for two years on Rincón. And all the studies, all the feedstocks that we've ever done, we've ever trialled. And you know, we've trialled out our own hard rocks, other people's hard rocks. We've trialled brines from the out of karma, Hombrae Muirtae, you know, we always end up the same position where we can have the conversion cost. And so we were thinking, well, it's really time to now start to look for a brine deposit. We were approached last year in February to come and have a look. I think what one of the big attractions was, you know, the big underground seas, there's access with existing wells. But for us, you know, cheap power. So you know, the Rocky Mountains power, we've got a couple of power lines that run through the project, open access. And the prices can range from 2.7 to 6 US cents a kilowatt hour, which is just unheard of where we come from. And for our process, you know, you pump them water, so that needs electricity. DLE needs electricity and your resins. And then E-Law is electrolysis, which you need electricity. And so we thought, well, this is unreal. And our partners have interests in the adjacent gas plant. And I said, well, you know, we're going to need gas for evaporation and crystallization. What's the gas price? And they're like about 50 gigajoules. You know, once again, a fraction of what we would pay in Australia. And we are the world's biggest natural gas exporters, or LNG exporters, you know. And in an age where it's the electrification of everything, if your energy costs are down the bottom, I'm talking rock bottom. And you're in Utah. So, you know, in 2023, it was the number one ranked mining jurisdiction in the world. And so we came over and met with some of the departments. And literally, you know, they are a breath of fresh air. How big is your vision for this? And how fast? In terms of vision wise, you know, that basin, the paradox basin, has about 56 billion tons of brine in it. We're got about 84,000 acres. It's not evenly distributed. So it's in valleys and stuff. So we got sort of green river, the Lisbon Valley, the Paradox Valley. So down in the Lisbon Valley, we've got about 84,000 acres of tenement applications. You know, the previous guys have identified that we know it has fantastic potash in it. It's a known potash leasing area. And the previous, you know, the oil and gas guys weren't really assaying for lithium in the last 50 or 60 years. So, you know, what assays have been done and with our neighbours, we know it's sort of in the range of 100 to 150 ppm down there, which is down the low side. I acknowledge that. But, you know, DLE, you know, it lowers the cost curve for these sorts of deposits. And certainly the cheap energy, you know, balances it up. I expected it'll be in the second quarter, right, term to op-ex. All the Spodiumane guys, all the chemical converters that use Spodiumane in the top half. And that's what actually unique in and of itself, because nobody's ever said there were going to be in the second quartile. Everybody that's ever spoken is always going to be the low cost producer. So, thank you for that. Thank you for that. I mean, you know, we'll be in the second quarter, right? And, you know, we may be up the top half of the second quarter aisle and then we reckon with our Eli process, we can get it down lower in the second quarter aisle. But, you know, it's not a size issue for us. Unfortunately, you know, we've got access to these 24 worlds. I don't have to drill them. They're buddy expensive to drill. So, and a couple of them been set up to pump, right? So, I can basically just pump a couple of tankers, drive them down to a lab for DLE piloting, get an idea of the OPEX and CAPEX quick. I mean, we know how much it costs to pump water. I mean, when you look at pump and water on pump and eggs volume up a eggs head, it's going to take so much power because gravity is a constant. You know, so we can get a handle on that quick. We know Eli because we've done hard rocks. We've done, you know, three feasibility studies on it. So, we know how much that will cost the DLE. We don't know. And, you know, the things we don't know everything. So, you know, we'll have to get consultants to come in and tell us about, you know, the well extraction on what the sustainable production is. But, you know, if we were going to do a 20,000-ton lithium carbon plant, we'd be able to produce perhaps 800,000 to a million tons of a pot ash, right? And the pot ash grades are great. So, you know, DLE, the lithium recover the pot ash, both critical metals or minerals for the US. You know, you import 90 plus 95% of your pot ash. So, you know, having a big production source in Utah would be pretty helpful, I would have thought, from security point and domestic lithium, you know, baits fight in the Chineas for it. Well, when you say you're in the second quartile, is that including pot ash credits or ex pot ash credits? At this stage, we wouldn't model anything for the pot ash credits at the moment. But I mean, because of the potential upside. And there's potential upside-down. You know, I think, you know, one of the interesting things is we actually developed, you know, we had a meeting with the Tesla guys in 2014 with Kurt Kelty and David Deek. You know, Mike and I rock up, sitting in a little private lecture theater and he writes two on the board. And I was like, oh, there's two of you two of us. I thought the answer to the universe was 42. But anyway, what's the two? And he said, that's the price we need per pound for lithium carbon at long term for Tesla. And I said, let's easy. Just go down and buy SQM, right? This is 24, then. Yeah, we had the same conversation in 2014 with Deek about symbol and about hydroxide. And it was the same thing. I said, you know, just go buy somebody because you're never going to be able to get the cost you want. Yeah. And I was wondering, then he said, did I say a pound of mint and kilo on a phone? You can't get it too much. And he said, we actually think your Eli process is halfway there. See if you can go and develop a DLA that can get, you know, operating costs at $1. So Michael, I went back and was scratching their head and we thought, oh, well, you know, so we developed this titanated solvent called Dexter. And it wasn't bad for first pass. We worked with one of the producers and almost signed a license to do a pilot plant with them. And it absorbed lithium and potassium. So I'd sort of have that in my back in my mind. And I thought, well, we haven't developed, you know, we stopped developing that when we did that, Marion. And I thought, you know, one day we need to get back and have a look at that. And then when this popped up, I was thinking, geez, imagine a direct potassium extraction. That had changed the market. Anyway, you know, we haven't done anything on DLA's for so long. We will just go, we'll try a couple of commercial ones that, you know, I can recommend it. Zalanda's offers technology and services that support both direct lithium extraction and conventional evaporation ponds. Minimize the environmental impact of your lithium site through Zalanda's data driven insights and tailored solutions for each extraction method. Go to Zalanda's.com for more information that's zealand easy.com. There are dozens of projects in the Western United States. Yeah. And I don't talk to many of them. But because it's you. And because of the respect I have for the other things you've accomplished. I this really interests me greatly that you are going to spend the time to try to economically produce low grade and do it in the United States. When you look at the landscape where you got exon, equinor, chevron, all these guys with big balance sheets, but they move really, really slowly. Do you think you can be in production before the big wave? Bigger names. You know, at this stage, I would say, we've got fantastic building blocks to do that, right? So our partners down there, they've got private land that we can put a plant on. So at 600 acres, nothing we'd need that. You're adjacent to natural gas. So you can take natural gas over the fence. You've got Rocky Mountains power running over the land. You've got wells in there. Now, I don't know how many wells that you would need to sustain 20,000 tons. My guess is we're probably-- depending on the diameter, you're going to need probably 30. We've got access to 24. They're not all going to be perfect. But you can pull all the old strings out and ream them out. And we're familiar with moving large volumes of water as former underground and open-pick gold miners. We have to do that every day to maintain a dry working environment. There's previously had large inventories of lithium and potassium. So I think there's a lot of building blocks there. So I've just got to go through the hope. So we're going to put out an exploration target in the not too distant future. I'll take bulk samples. Like I'll take probably 30,000 gallons of brine out of one of the wells and run that through a full pilot. Now people are going, "Go, Bull, shit." That's early. And I'm like, well, I don't have to worry about how big it is. I have to worry about what the operating cost is. Like I've got to know the recoveries, the OPEX, the CAPEX, before I do anything. But our plan is within a year to have completed the scoping studies. So exploration target, pilot plant, mineral resource, estimate, and a scoping study to do that in 12 months, I think. Some people take a long period of time. I mean, we're going to put in back here, typically, deposits can take seven plus years. We started exploration on a gold prospect in February last year. We're not far off announcing a joint venture. We contracted so we'll wear all the CAPEX and OPEX a bit like the old Minres deal at Mount Marion, where we share the profits. And we hopefully have that in production in another 12 months. So that's two years from piece of dirt to a mine. No plant. Here, you've already got the old body. You've got some of the extraction. Certainly the evaluation tools. So yeah, I bet we can move this pretty quick. And have a look at some of the valuations that these guys are getting. You had CTR down in the salt and sea, 4.4 billion US. And they have completed a CFS on a brine deposit. It's a little-- it's significantly warmer than ours. We don't have to put a geothermal power station ahead of it. But 4.4 billion in a US in a SPAC for a DFS, for a 25,000 ton operation, sounds like the returns that all want to make. Well-- I'll come any on value. I'm just saying. That's the number that's out there. The SPAC of the century. Maybe I might have the SPAC of the century. OK. Well, OK. So you're going to be a brine guy now, maybe. And in North America, it seems like a lot of the people that are over here trying to do lithium are Aussies anyway. So I mean, I think there's more Aussies than Americans trying to do lithium in North America. I guess that tells you something about our skill set. But when you look at the rest of what's happening in North America. Last time you were on. Those many years ago we talked about Canada and Canada is still essentially in the same place it was then. In terms of. And I'll probably say the same thing that I said then. In a place that snowed seven months of the year, should you be mining white rocks in an open pit? But having said that, the North American lithium guys, they've got that working. I think the missing piece is having that domestic conversion. If you had the domestic converters there, there's plenty of good Spodiumone deposits in Canada. Absolutely. Some of them are outstanding. I have nothing against Canadian rocks. More permitting process. The ability to get a financed end. If we don't build conversion on this side of the world, then the only game in town market-wise is. Tesla's China. Yeah, I mean, we had an R&D lab in Montreal for five years. I think generally they just take a bit longer in Canada. But there's patient investors, the governments are supportive. Or be it things just take a bit longer. But there's some cracking deposits there. When you have a look at the genesis, I guess, of the Canadians up at Lecorn, originally the Thim Corporation of America was going to develop that in the late 50s, early 60s. And Canadians cut the Australians' lunch and subsidized the underground mining and hand sorting of the Or at Lecorn. And it was railed down to. down at North Carolina. The constant traits were railed down there for conversion. Yeah, but then you also had the other piece of that is that the US government decided even Canada couldn't be trusted at the time. So they wanted the production to be all in the Continental United States. That was part of that issue. I think there was a lawsuit over it. For real rock. Abrogating a contract, maybe. Yeah, I mean, it's great to see the guys down in the smack over make a fist of it. And Robert, down at the standard lithium, they've set the pace and pinted. It's pretty hard. We got Matt Marron in 2009 and we had a full start. We started developing the mine and then December 2010. We got told that Slow will stop the development. Because the Australians were bringing you on a couple of mines, it was Galaxy in and us. And then there was the price war for a couple of years. So we know that it takes it hard. But we can see the US having some success. And it's just the start, which is good. Well, if you look at the market now, this year's growth will be bigger than the market was in 2020. And you and I had the conversation because I always used to credit you with the fact that everybody's obsessing about the first million tons. And you said that's the real problem is the second million tons. Well, we will be at the second million tons by 2027 at the latest. Every lithium producer and most prognosticators, including myself, have always understated demand. And sometimes understated supply too, but that's really to me where what you're doing now in Utah and some of the other things that are happening that would have been considered nonstandard. In the last decade, in order to even come close to meeting the demand, it seems like you have to have a lot of these things and you have to have go right and whether you're in the first quartile or the second quartile. It doesn't really matter that much. Yeah, I agree. I mean, you know, we had the last cycle and we've had the African hard rocks come in here. I mean, in Australia, how much can how much more can we expand? I mean, you know, Greenbushers, Wajar, Mare and Kathleen Fowley, Kilbra. You know, I can ramp up, but you know, you'd have to we always said the technology just needed to be there to unlock the brines, right? Because Sailor of Vaporation and precipitation are just not sustainable when you're talking about needing an extra million tons of LCE from brines. But where do you get the Soda Ashfrah? Yeah, good point. Right. And then you got to evaporate a boatload of water and everyone's very concerned with, you know, like in Utah, you can't evaporate water. So you have to use the L.A. And that's pretty much the story in America. I mean, Silver Peak is the anomaly, but it's tiny and it's, you know, you're just not. You're not going to have a pond system, a new big pond system in the US. It's no no deal. You know, smack over. Yeah, no deal. No, no, no, the stuff in the Western United States. Yeah. And look, you know, I think, you know, Rio emerging is the new super power. I think that that's what the market needs. Someone of that size to be able to be able to dedicate the capital. And you know, they've got the operating experience now acquired through the Arcadian team and, you know, keeping that intact. You know, because that's one of the things you've got to have the people. You've got to have the cattle to that no pun intended to run these things, you know, so it's people and capital and the resources. So, you know, Humbera, Mertos, you know, it's family to one resource. And you've got all the rows, which is probably not. But so you've got some tier two assets, some tier one assets. And we saw the solid. It is solid. We just tier one asset. I would say. Yeah, problem. The problem that you have up there is you got too many too many people pursuing resources with very poor infrastructure. And that you need to be big because you need to put the infrastructure. You're going to bring everything. That's going to be become a more significant problem is Argentine tries to realize its potential to. And then you got. I guess maybe I'm not as bullish on Rio Tinto's experience. So they should have the balance sheet to do it. But when you have the guy who pioneered the acquisition move on. And a new guy, maybe that doesn't feel the same way about lithium. The lithium industry needs Rio Tinto to be very successful. Yeah, they do. They do. You know, because we need big wedges of it from Braun and, and you know, how much more can you get out of the outcome? I think the outcome you just say for it's it's it's over. You know, and then everybody starts talking about all the assets around it. And we've been having that discussion for. The better part. It's decade. It has. It has some geopolitical sort of challenges. And you need to be a big heavy white. And you know, I think the big companies they've already got existing operations and relationships. I think they're fond. It's, you know, for a smaller company, it's much easier to go into the US than it is to go into South America. Yeah, I must admit that the licensing and the minerals you got a mining act, you got a minerals, lacing acts. I can't work out like if I got a jug of brown. I got a I got to pay the federal government a royalty on sodium, potassium calcium magnesium, but the lithium they get no royalty from because they didn't legislate it in 1920, whatever when the act went through. They've been allowing people to sort of take lithium from a plastic claim of thinking, Places are sort of broken up rock. Normally for for minerals. So, you know, I just I can't work out how a country like the US on federal ground, they get no royalty from lithium. It's just amazing. You know, anyway, it's just one of the nuances of doing business. I probably shouldn't be talking up the government getting a royalty, but it just doesn't say make it affordable to me. you see, listen to this podcast. So maybe they'll give you a call. Yeah. I probably get a couple of you get a couple of fine calls from some other cats. Tell them it is shut up. This episode is also brought to you by MLC, whether you need technical support for engineering or setting up equipment for effective use of lime. MLC is your solutions partner. Visit lime4 lithium.com to learn more. That's L I M E the number four L I T H I UM dot com. If you look at your prognostications with him to ban, what do you think 2030 looks like now with all the best talk and, you know, no matter what the press says about EVs, they're still making a lot of them. The growth is still there. So it's just incredible. And nothing, nothing else though. I think, you know, you're understated, not understated. Right. I think when, you know, the, the, the, I think I said it probably, I mean, it was at a benchmark in prayer that I was just like, you know, guys, I know the lithium prices are heading down. This must have been in 24, you know, the prices are collapsing. I'm like that, you know, what you've got is the station energy storage with this LFP. You've got no idea. It's so cheap now that solar and panels, like I've got a, I've got solar panels, solar panels that are battery at home. And, you know, I thought the payback might be like eight years. It'll be four years. And then I'm thinking with the prices and I put that in like four years ago. If I put it in today, you know, you're talking about a couple of years, which is incredible. And you can do that just at a house scale. I imagine what you can do industrially. And so I think the real constraint will just be production. But, you know, I've seen Casper and your commentary on CATL, right? Here is someone who is the largest player in the largest consumer. Why they're not integrated already. I don't know. If I was a big lithium producer, I'd be looking over my shoulder because these cats are going to be coming with money, right? To underwrite that business long term. And then where does geopolitics. How does that get worked out? Oh, not that smart. Yeah. Well, I, that's the problem because it's. Yeah. If you look at if all the smack over projects suddenly came to fruition, that lived. It was not staying in the United States. Yeah. But the idea of 90% of the lithium units still gone through China and the China is getting the majority. I mean, looked, you know, I found the CATL guys. I'm buying GANFEN or I'm buying TNG or I'm buying a collection of whatever I can get. At that stage. From a geopolitical standpoint, obviously, GANFEN's invested heavily outside of China. Those deals happen. But GANFEN also had to be extricated from lithium Americas. There wouldn't have been a DOE loan for that could pass. You do have the geopolitics at play and I don't think a Canadian company isn't going to be able to get financed. Well, I reckon Robin should ring out the guys at La Sade that I think the family that runs 35% of the airmen of just the individual is out to advise on the sale. I'd be trying to do that. I'm trying to, you know, be the big shareholder in airmen, try to pull down Centenario and retains and develop a couple of the other ones. You know, I mean, they've got their, I don't know, from what I hear. It's ticking along or right down there. Yeah. I guess I'll reserve judgment until I see some, you know, exports that slide you say. But if you're in the second quarter, it's fine. No, no, I'm just saying they declared victory months and months and months ago. I did. And the amount of exports need to, because it isn't being consumed in Argentina. But I hope they succeed. I want DL to succeed. Yeah, no, I look, it's the answer. You have gone from, what did you say? It was your birthday in 2008. You were in Germany and you heard the word, "Live in before you went into a meeting." And then you wound up getting in to Lithium. You went Mount Mary. I used to drive over Mount Mary in on the way to a gold, the Mount Mary in Gold. Yeah, yeah. So that's another reason why I like to have you on. You have a perspective that most people still, I mean, most people still that are in this industry, haven't been in the industry for a decade. Most people. That's. And you know, I'll be coming up to three decades. You know, I'm not going to, you know, it's, it's been interesting. I love it. Yeah. And in fact, that you have bounced from hard rock to urban mining. And now you're a brine guy. I mean, this is, I don't even think it's full circle because I think it's just who knows what you're going to do next. Yeah. Well, we've got the downstreaming technology with, we own, we've been res us. We're looking to commercialize with Bria Tintai. So, you know, I hope we can help make some of their operations down into tier one. You know, I'm not sure we're going to go back into sort of a DLA. You know, we've got a presence in the sort of battery making. We were a shareholder in Typhus, which is developing a lithium-vonadium offside battery that's been trialled for use in what we would call yellow gear or, you know, earth moving equipment. So we've got a few positions. We understand the supply chain. And, you know, I think at this stage, what we're most sort of bullish on is the need for brine-based lithium chemicals domestically produced in the US. And, you know, there's fantastic sort of, you know, you can look at Fast41 with unified sort of permitting. And, there's all sorts of funding from the DOA, the Department of Agriculture for expanding fertilizer. Do you know? Do you think there is a DOD or any of the other alphabets out there in the United States that are handing out money, DOE, DOD, DLA? Do you think that is going to be part of financing your project? Are you looking at that or.? Absolutely. I mean, the projects are there to deliver what they want, which is to have those essential critical minerals produced in the continental US, you know. And being good allies, we're going to come over and help you. Thank you. Thank you very much. That's all right, Joey. How many conversations have you had? How serious do you think the current, both federal and say Utah? How serious are they about having you advance or anyone advance a project? Utah's had a lot of fall starts in this area. Yeah, I think the legislation and catching up for sure. And even the Lithium-Brighten extraction permitting process, House Bill 478, you know, all the legislation is not finalised yet. You know, there's a bit more certainty if you're on the state land, where on the federal land. You know, I think with anything, you know, Lithium, and down in the smack over, you're on private land. So it's a little different again. But, you know, I think the support when we came over to see the guys in Utah, you know, we had the deputy attorney general and we're talking to the headguys at the Department of Oil, Gas and the various other government departments. They really couldn't have been more helpful, right? We get the sense they want stuff done. And this is where we're not in, you know, we'd be 60 Ks out of my way, right? In the desert. No one lives where we are. I've been to my way. There's gas pipelines and gas wells and stuff out there. But, you know, it looks like our backyard, out the back of Kaguly, except there's a lot of oil wells, well, gas wells. And a gas plant now. So, you know, I think, fantastic building blocks. And so, what's stopping it is just the flow sheet. And, you know, you have to show the economic returns. You have to show that you can, it's technically feasible and economically viable and the markets will come. But you're going to see what they're doing down in and down in the salt and say, you know, once you get the metallurgy cracked. and you can show that there returns the market comes. You have a look at the guys at Vulkan in Germany or down in the salt and sea or in the smack-over. You've got the big boys moving in there, right, let you say Exxon and that sort of stuff. So once it's technically feasible and economically viable, the capital and the competitors come. - General Brown was actually the explorer, original one in the salt and sea. They were actually the explorer that was, it was now fact or pass. So it's kind of what comes around, goes around. I mean, they weren't looking for lithium at the time, but yeah, we'll see. I am not a bull on what's the salt and sea. That that brine is, I mean, you probably looked at it. It's, I did. I had to look at it for an easy, - Not an easy one. - For an easy boy saying, you know, I'm a hot. And it was, it was pretty tough, I'm gonna say. But, you know, they're getting through it. You know, it's hot. You're gonna take the heat out. It's gonna let it dissolve metals in it. You're gonna pretreat it. You know, it's a byproduct of taking the heat out of the water you get free or cheap power. You know, there's solutions. - All right, so if you were gonna look at supply in 2030, well, let's go to 2035, give brine time. - Yeah. - What's the mix between rock and brine in 2035? - Look, I really do think it's sort of brine's sort of time to shine. I can't see a massive amount coming in in the next couple of years, but. - That's why I said 35, because 2035. - Yeah, 2035, yeah. You know, I think if you get to the fact that on Earth, probably two thirds of the world's lithiums in brine deposits, but, you know, the hard rocks of history would show that has been able to respond better. You know, maybe we get to an even balance. I mean, you've still got to cut the big ones in Africa. I mean, you know, that. - Well, and you have so much capacity to process in China, that yeah, I think as long as you can dig it up, it'll, China will continue to grow what they can do in the hard rock. Well, they have to, right? - Yeah, they have to, they absolutely have to. I'll make this my last question. Right now, China so dominates batteries that Japan's really out of the game. I mean, Panasonic's a tiny player now percentage wise. The players in Korea, their share just continues to decline. Do you see that turning around in the next 10 years, or in 2035, 2036, is it going to be 90% of the batteries come out of China, or is that change? Or, via Chinese companies? - Yeah, I think the, I think, I mean, globalization works until it doesn't. And then I think in this, the current predicament we find ourselves, even a small change in the transportation of oil, you can see the ripple effect. Now that's oil and I don't know, 15 or 20% goes through the strats of home was, right? What would be the ripple if there was a serious misalignment between the Western China and the lithium batteries didn't flow? Forget the cars, but what if the lithium batteries stop flowing? Right? And that is super concentrated. It'd be like saying, hey, 80% of all the oil comes out of the straighter home was. That would be equivalent. 80% of the lithium's, that sells the stuff come out of China. So if you are becoming increasingly energy, the electrification of everything, stationary storage, cars, the whole lot, that concentration is becoming, that's gotta be a major strategic query, you know, like the US fostering the critical minerals and all of these things, they're trying to get it done that maybe you need like a Manhattan project sort of thing where you need to get the Koreans and the Japanese, they've got a ramp up, but I mean, okay, they're on either side of China on the East China, see if there's anything it'll be around East China. So then you either have to have the cell production in Europe or the US. So, you know, I'll just be, I'll be working with open arms to come in and to try to foster that. - Well, I think there's the one positive in North America is that, battery energy storage systems are much more popular with the current administration than supporting EVs was. And I think you're, I think you're gonna see a real benefit from that. But our big problem that China doesn't have is, every four years it all gets thrown up in the air and the policies don't stay consistent and that's gonna continue to be a perplexing problem. And we're probably gonna be switching back in a few years. - Yeah, well, we're probably gonna go into gridlock after the coming midterm. So, - Well, I've won back Australia sort of, you know, 30 years ago we were producing all our own oil and we had eight refineries. We now produce 10% of our own oil and we've got two refineries. And you know, you get little hiccups and look what happens, you're caught short. - Yeah, that's one of the things that we don't have that problem right now. I mean, our oil situation in the United States is better than it used to be. But yeah. - All right, well, I think we'll leave it there. Good luck in Utah. We hopefully we'll see your smiling face in Las Vegas. - Yeah, you'll certainly say it, say it. - And I always appreciate your time and your perspective. - It's been an absolute pleasure, Joseph. I look forward to seeing you in June. - As I said in the intro, Chris reads one of my favorite voices in the Lithium space. He's been in the upstream at Mount Marion. He's been into the recycling aspect. He is now putting his focus on Brian, which I think is a good thing for the industry. And I'm happy he's doing it in the United States of America. Lithium confidential is now been edited by a professional. I am also doing some edits based on a legal review to make sure that I am fully within my legal rights as to how specific I am in my writing about my 35 now 36 years in the industry. I won't have to make too many changes, but I do have to make some. In any case, that all should be done. I thank everybody who looked at the potential covers that I put up on social media and commented. I actually have a professional artist who's doing the actual cover rather than AI. And she's gonna give me some renderings in the next week or so. And I will put those up for people to vote on. In the end, it's my book, it's my decision, but I do really like to have the comments negative and positive. It's always fascinating how different people look at things in different ways. And with my Lithium career in mind, I will go back to my favorite Japanese proverb, not like I'll be, "Oki, fall down seven times. get up a thanks again for listening.