Episode 23 - just a boy - Masculinity Pt 2 (ft. Florence)

[Music] Hi, this is Ian and we're back with another episode of Lifestyle Regulars. Extra-large opinions from six regular sized dudes. How many extra-large opinions do we have here today? Please introduce yourselves. Hey everyone, it's Morgan again, back from a little bit of a high-disk for a few episodes. But yeah, huge opinion on masculinity today. Very good. Hi everyone, I'm Florence. Some of you may know me. I went to Borko with a lot of the guys in the lifestyle regulars. I'm a speech pathologist, a pediatric speech pathologist working primarily in the disability sector. And so my views on masculinity are a little bit skewed just because I work in a very female dominated industry. So it's a little bit limited the challenges I've had. But no doubt your perspective today would be very, very valuable. Absolutely. All right, so it's terrific to have you here today. We have a real shortage of opinions around here. The female opinions, definitely. That's what the episode two episodes ago be realized. Like it's just a really nice type of females talking their perspective. We'll be revisiting an old episode. Number seven, the big M masculinity. Let me give you a bit more context. Since that episode, I've been able to understand myself a lot better. That episode, just that one episode, I've been monumental to my growth, put simply it's just something that I never talked about and guys never usually talk about. But it is the lens through which we see the world around us. So I began to understand personal identity more and the need to satisfy that image. So could I just get your initial thoughts about that episode? What did you think? Look, I have my own opinions. I thought it was pretty. Honestly, it's pretty bad. Yeah, so I listened to it when it came out and then I re-listen to it this past week in preparation for this recording. And I found it's very contradictory. A lot of the stuff that some of you were saying was just kind of all over the play. It is short-sighted, which is still not. Yeah, it was a very surface level discussion, I think. And you guys didn't have enough time to actually flesh it out why you think certain things. Yeah. I do feel as a like listening back in some episodes, I do feel like the listener who just wants to scream at us. So I get that own voice in. I definitely felt that to halfway through I was like bro, Richard. That's not the right thing to say. I mean, it's not the other I think to say, but like you could have said more of this. It is true. Like I think I would I want definitely from listening to I want to know a lot more. Like I think you guys explored a lot of the physical aspect of masculinity. And I guess the other thing is as well was also because all of you guys were Asian. That also Asian perspective. But I think that's not actually a bad thing. And I think we should have explored that a little bit more coming through. All right, more listeners. If you do want to scream at us, do you have outlets to contact us? Just give us that feedback because we like it as well. For me, it was a hard listen. It was, yeah, again, it was like a very surface level discussion. And Mike was in a hurry to get through like everyone of his questions. So that like you're slaying it on you. It feels the real thing, all right? All right. So saying he's a bad host. No, we didn't know what we were talking about at the time. I mean, we didn't have a really deep understanding of it. So please excuse us. And yeah, we didn't know how to articulate ourselves because it was the first time we had talked about it. And it's a big discussion. Like it's a big topic that's got a lot of not ten tangents to it, but just it's got a lot going for it. And there's a lot of you've talked about masculinity, you can talk about femininity, you can talk about gender roles. There are a lot of things. There are a lot of topics. Yeah, topics. Yeah, correct. Brownsh is out into everything. And I guess before that conversation, we're just unconscious of how much of an impact it had on us because when we were talking about role models, like all of us had male role models. And we didn't understand why, but it's because all the activities we gravitated towards were tinged with like the idea of masculinity, like sports. I'd like to add to that. This is so small. Like I feel like males generally have a lot of male role models and females might, I don't know, we can talk about this, might have a lot of female models because role models' point is sort of to highlight where you want to be and where you want to be right now. So if you have a pre-perceived sort of notion of what a man should do, you want to look to role models that do that already and sort of to follow in their footsteps. So that's why. But I like for me, I think role models to me is it depends on context. In different contexts, I may have different role models. There are things that I appreciate about people. Like in that context, say for example, you know, being a man how to, you know, really be like conscious to your family, all that stuff. At work, it could be different leadership. I could have a different role model for that if that makes sense. I think that's true. Talking from my own perspective, growing up, I don't think I had any, I don't think I actually had any body I specifically looked up to as a role model. Like a specific person, the only exception maybe being my sister, who's five years older than me. But I think I only picked her because I saw someone who looked like me was older than me, was in primary school and high school before me. So I saw her. I saw, yeah, I saw myself in her and thought, okay, she looks like me. She seems to be doing, I guess that's what I should be doing too. And I don't know if that's the same for you guys. When you're younger, did you pick your role models based on representation? Who you saw yourself physically being like, or in like social circles, who you saw as being older than you? Because I feel like when you're older, that changes. So now our role models, or attributes that you consider to be inspirational, you aspire to be like, you don't pick a person, you pick a certain aspect of that person. Yeah, you pick an idea. Yeah, you pick and choose aspects that you want for different people. I think I can agree with you that there wasn't like a super overt model that you would chase. Like the closest person to that would be my father because he's the male role model of the house. You're right. And as we go older, we pick what we see in like the media or so that would be what role model would that be? Like do you have anyone at the moment that you think, oh, I really like that the physique or I really like their charity work or I really like how I've spoken they are. I really like those people who started off really young tackling production, like music production from when they were 14. So now when they're like 25 or 30, they're already a master at the craft, already at a very young age. And so who was that guy? It was an Icelandic producer. Like Icelandic electronic music producer. But is that very specific to your interest? Yes, very, very specific. And sort of like I wish I had gotten into when I was 14. So exactly like 25. Is this purely for music or is it more that you admire the fact that they had that will and that drive at a young age to do whatever craft it is? It doesn't have to be music in your sport could be art. Yes, it's that drive and it is that direction from a young age. And I don't know them personally and I don't even know what the personality is like. It's just what the achievements that I see. So you're right in that I picked up those aspects from them. Morgan? Yeah, so like I think growing up, I think what I'd like to probably tackle most is probably about models around like I'm going to say like gender also like rather than say my hobbies on my interest because I think that for me is probably the hardest one to sort of find. You can find people who are great leaders like I'm thinking like you know just in the I don't know whatever like if I want to talk about like leadership and relating with people and servant leadership but like I think they're really easy because you can find people who demonstrate those things. So I think about all around or yeah, but yeah exactly so I think more around like gender roles how to be a man what to do as a man or as a female. And I think like even as a I guess as a kid I feel like I don't know in my age and I bring we didn't really have a lot of external stimulus or we weren't like I was not allowed to watch TV. Let's put it that way right so I don't have a lot of that external so I think I feel the same with Florence where like most of my I guess role models and in the quotation marks would be within the family and I guess my main two obviously would always start off being a parent especially with the general's but I think with my exposure to like friends and also to friends parents to older people like in high school in university it's slowly like I guess would morph my opinion on what like these role models. So for me it's like for example for me my dad is a good role model for me on what not to do as a man rather than what to do as a man there are aspects of him that I really appreciate like you know his studious side of things or his what's the word for it are like I think his attention to detail So his resilience. But there are other side of things where like a patriarchal to the Chinese society I go nah I don't think that's the right thing to do and the interesting thing is like my mum reinforces some of those beliefs Where he's like oh, you know your dad just come home for a really long day of work Don't bother him don't ask him to claim dishes don't ask him to cook because he's you know He blood-swinning tears sort of thing and it's very interesting But like for me those were my two role models and I think they still are But I think you know external stimulus from other people have sort of subverted some of those aspects of Like the roles if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, I guess you've psychologically assigned it to some other Like Elon Musk or something. Yeah, no, but like they they for me wouldn't be like what I expect for myself as a man They could be what I perceive as a definition of a success But for me like success. Oh, you know necessarily a man trait. Oh, you're really splitting exactly. Yeah, okay Put simply it wasn't the answer I expected I simply just expected like I like Elon Musk or I like No, I do like him right. He's a great and he works in my industry He is for me pretty much in my definition definition of success someone who thinks outside the box But for me that's you know, that's what I want to be professionally bit for me like a role gender role perspective That I don't look to him saying okay. I'll look should I you know? Should I cook dinner tonight for the fan like I wouldn't right? Okay, yeah, he wouldn't be a good role model in terms of Being a man because when you're looking at him as a role model You're looking at him on a surface level because you don't know exactly You're looking at him as a marker of success, but you wouldn't necessarily do take the steps that he took to get to that point And you did put you did put family behind him. Yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, like if I was to follow him. Yeah, I'll be like, you know going through a few marriages Sorry Elon if you're listening to this What I expected to answer in this role model question was like What do I expect were you expecting us to have picked certain? Yeah characters or certain? That's what I expected It depends like I know some people who are very strong on that like you asked them who are your role models? They can give you like you are specifically one two three and they can give you that specific like this This and this is why I whatever yeah, but I feel like for me I feel like that's quite a Childish thing to do like that idea of you pick a cell I'm just talking about celebrities for example You pick a celebrity that you adore and that you think is like the most amazing role model Like I feel like that's a very young teenager That's a very Yeah, yeah, yeah, you idolize that's very fan culture that's very young teenage thing because you don't have Either you don't have the exposure to more people you don't have the wisdom you don't have the maturity Because I think that it's very I'm gonna use the word stupid. Yeah, I think it's very stupid to pick one person I think they are the most amazing person ever because everyone has good sides and bad sides everyone's got flaws To pick someone and just say you are my role model. I love everything about you Stupid you put them on a pedestal. Yeah, you're putting them on a pedestal Nobody's perfect. No, no, it's perfect But if they do embody that direction you want to chase like I think it would drive you forward as well I guess the immediate thought is like NBA stars that came to my mind like if it if it Because I feel like athletes like Like such embody that single-minded drive towards towards I think I think it's because we can see it as more one-dimensional and it seems like They're very focused on that single dimension whereas like for other people You can't exactly say their success is single dimension. Okay, so we're evaluating success as a whole like a very like a Hall when you talk about role models. That's where you pick Mm-hmm your role models from who what traits from different people will give you a sense of success Yeah, do you guys think it's um Dangerous though like when I use the word dangerous. I mean like say You really you know, you want to become a basketball player. So your role model is this NBA start right and so you sort of follow And it's for some do follow his traits. You really want to take on an embody his attitude towards training towards playing But he's actually a really shitty person Would that deter you from like you know being a role model to you like I said he's great. He's successful He you know, he's got a very good determination He's got talent that you know He's a really shitty person first thing first and then comes and mind is maybe like Michael Jackson Michael Jordan Michael Jackson Jackson. I haven't watched I haven't watched anything. I haven't watched maybe I was I was sure of your talking about Michael Jordan talking about basketball. Oh no Michael Jackson. I mean But my view towards that is that you still can't dismiss his achievements even though he came at a expense of like a lot of people or this I mean Have you been watching his live documentary? I haven't seen a living living neverland. I haven't seen it but I did see like a follow up article that he got like Ammonished. Yeah, I think he got like the charges got dropped or something. I'm sure Um, I'm not familiar. Okay, we can put that behind us. I Honestly see young men. I unironically Like idolizing these fictional characters like Tony Montana. Who though? Who are you seeing? I just Tony Montana. Isn't he a mob boss? Huh? He's a mob of a mob. Yeah, scoff is like the Man's Scorsese movie basically come like Italian mafia. Yeah, it comes from nothing like like an immigrant in Miami and he just rises up and people see that as I guess a lot of young men see that as like very sexy and Becoming something from nothing, but then they don't see his that his downfall as well. Yeah, so it's that idea of You're only picking what you the traits that you find as successful. That's right for a role model. Can I? Can I ask this question? This is very interesting So when have we talked about role models and I feel like when if we do less role models, they are always what we them as successful male models How important is success as a role model candidate for females? I think very important. I think For females for example me growing up a lot of my traits that I saw as desirable and saw as role models came from fictional characters from books. So for example Matilda I saw her as somewhat of a role model because I thought she's intelligent. She got out of a shit situation with parents. She was kind, blah blah blah. I saw her as those traits as being a role model thing and now that I'm older the people who I see as successful and role models are people who use their voice for good so through podcast mediums or people who are actively trying to push a back against Uh A patriarchy. The patriarchy. Yeah about yeah the patriarchy so people like AOC in the states I see them as being very very successful because they're actively trying to use their voice to do something good for the better of other women Do you know I didn't actually know about the AOC. It's a very recently AOC is a monitor brand and everyone saying like I'm like Why are you guys talking about a monitor and then I was like oh And then you realized that who it was someone explained to me who was I've got a full name but yeah Alexandria I forget the middle Macasia Macasia Macasia Yeah See that for me was interesting like when we as in like as in I guess a lot of us when we look at role models we look at success It's always about um you know earning a shit ton of money Having a lot of assets, you know being recognized in the world achieve a measurable achievement Like from a female point of view your starting point of success was being independent I think right for having a voice in the intelligence which is like almost a Assumption that we make to guys who are successful. Yeah, I think for I think for women It comes a lot from your measure of success comes from what you've seen other people go through and you've seen examples of other For example women or other girls being disadvantaged you see that anything. I don't want that to happen to me How can I make sure that doesn't happen to me or happen to the people around me? Who can I look to who is actively pushing against that and how can I embody those traits for myself? At least for me. I think that's where it comes from Is the idea of being a mother outdated then? I think it's becoming increasingly outdated for a lot of young women. Yeah Yeah, is it being a mother or being for example a stay at home mother so a lot of women Our parents for example my mom was a stay at home mom. Is it is that what you're talking about that idea of giving up a career or is it giving? Uh-uh um having kids in general Having kids in general because I guess the answer I expected was Those women who are mothers and going to achieve success in their careers as well So it's something that has to be balanced. I don't know if that's something But I think I think for me that's a very interesting gender role we impose on people I think I'm not gonna understate how much you know physical strain you know a few months ago through to give birth but I would like to say after that physical strain, the responsibility of that child, like I think in my, I guess more, I don't know if it's modern or whatever, this presentation is, it is the responsibility of both the parents, and I feel like both of them should have the equal opportunity to work on their ambitions and their jobs as well as take care of the kid. And I think it's a balance between the two. It's no longer, I think society should no longer have the expectation that, you know, the mum has to give up like the first three, four years of their life. - Yeah. - A PhD. - A PhD. - Basically, a PhD to raise a child to a point where like the child is semi independent. - They become more self-sufficient when they go to school. - Yeah, exactly. - And then she can go back to work. Like I think, I do see that a lot, sometimes at workplace now, like starting to change, which is good, but I feel like a lot of us were brought up with that gender role in mind. So we're not, I think when you put that word of, I forgot shit. - It's a motherhood. - You still. - A dear motherhood. - Yeah, like still an idea that we celebrate people who have given birth and then become successful. I think, yes, we should, but I don't think we should celebrate it because underneath in our subconscious, we think, oh, because they've gone and taken care of the child for like five or six years, but they still manage to achieve this, if that makes sense. - Yeah, I think we should view both successes with the same lens in the future. Obviously. - And I think it really depends on what your idea of success is. You guys seem to be talking about success as being a monetary or a career achievement. - Achievement. - Achievement. - Yeah, usually it is. - Yeah, and I think that really, that idea of success at various people, some women might see as having kids and being able to raise good kids, good people as being a measure of success, and that's what they're content with. Other people may be not so much, they see holding a position in a company as being a measure of success. So if that's the case, maybe perhaps, motherhood is something that they don't want. And I feel like that's becoming increasingly clear with young people these days. - But I feel like people shouldn't push that agenda on people that don't want to. - Yeah, absolutely. - Yeah. - Yeah. And I feel like I'm worried that that might be what it becomes. I think the first step to equality in every, in every instance, or like the pissy, verbool first step to equality, is always inequality. And sometimes people go over the top in order to equate that equality, if that makes sense. Like, no, no, no. - So an example, example I'll give you is, say for example, when we go into, I like this example, because it happens a lot in my field in uni, engineering. Right? When we come to talk about equality or equal opportunity, I feel like we should be educating and giving the opportunity equally, whether you're a gyro girl to pursue. - You were talking about, no, just called to bush, you were talking about diversity and inclusion, right? - No. - I'm not talking about that, this. - I am slightly alluding to that. But like, as in, (laughing) I feel like it should be like, you know, you have equal opportunity to pursue it. But I feel like that has to start at a younger age. It's not about, okay, I open the door. It's like, I'm educating you on, this is what? - So it's a tale. - Yeah. - So what do you say? But like, I feel like, that's why I said, the first step to equality is always inequality, because we always measure things. So like, for example, in engineering, we offer scholarships only to females with this, like a specific scholarship to female, to create that inequality so that you have a higher perceived equality inside your cohort. You've now got five females in the cohort, versus five males in the cohort. But. - It's interesting that you say, we have increased perceived equality. - Yeah. - You're using what perceived as in. - So the reason I say that is because it's about measurement. - Yeah. - Right? Like, - Do you only have a purely quantitative? - Exactly. If you want to prove you've got equality, 50, 50. - Yeah. - But what if that, you know, role of that job of that field, it's just not interesting to tell people of a female, right? And you sort of try to force that ideal on by giving additional benefits of pursuing that field in order to attract people there. - This is a complex, yeah. It is a very complex, - It's a very complex, yeah. - Anyway, I should, I shouldn't go there, but I think that's feminism is a whole, and equality is a whole different topic. - A whole other episode. - Yeah. (laughing) - Talking frankly, I think we honestly, benefit more from diversity, inclusion then. - Oh no, no, I agree. - Like myself personally, like, I agree, but like, what, what, I'm a big advocate of equal opportunity, and I don't mean, like, oh, hey guys, both do engineering. It's more like, even from kindergarten, you shouldn't push, you know, your parents shouldn't push you towards art and craft 'cause you're a girl versus, or go build some Lego blocks 'cause you're a guy, right? Like, for me, it's foundational, equal opportunity. - And not affirmative action says Morgan. Would you agree if I'm not affirmative? (laughing) - And I'm wrong, action is wanting diversity and inclusion, right? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But, like, quota sort of. - Yeah, that's a quota thing. Are you usually used that with American colleges? - That's the, yeah, that's exactly the one that I hate, like, you actively do it to encourage it. Yeah, I feel like that, what is it? I should find an example where, like, Asians are the diversity inclusion, so I can talk about it as a minority, rather than a majority, 'cause like, engineering and male, other majority doesn't. - Yeah. - Not a good enough story to find a minority one to talk about. - Yeah. - These are the finds for us, like, in an creative field. Like, there's so much under-representation of what's worth talking about. - Nursing, nursing. - There you go, nursing. - Yeah, yeah. - You don't have the same sort of, like, oh, let's get some more males in there. - No, no, you don't. - Yeah. - Right. - Speech fat could be. - Yeah, but another one exactly, yeah. - I've had three guys in a cohort of 60. - Yeah, and they don't, they don't. - Oh, so, let's put some scholarship for guys they do nursing like, isn't, they don't have that same. - We make shit all of 'em, and that's why we don't have that. - Oh, okay. It's not about the money, it's about the passion. Right. (laughing) - But also, it's just, it's not that, we're not offering spots for guys, it's more, there's no guys applying to become a speech, because it's seen as. - Feminine. - A feminine thing, you know, a majority of the speech path is pediatric work. - Mm. - Pediatric. - His child care, child rearing, like it's, it all, what, you play what association essentially, and I think that's why a lot of guys aren't interested. They, like they immediately dismiss it. - A lot of health professions are, like, I think other than being like a doctor. - Or a physio, yeah, physio. - Physio is a big male dominated thing. - That's true. So, a strange how it just comes to fruition, these like, career paths. Here's the question, with the idea of motherhood. Gender roles, from what I understand is, you know, motherhood and looking after the child in at least, age. - The first few years? - Yeah, first couple of years, it normally falls, or the expectation is it will fall to the woman. How, you guys personally, how would you feel about if once the child is born, once the child is no longer on a relied schedule or being, you know, on the mum's boot. - Yeah. - How would you guys feel about if it was, if it made more financial sense for the woman to go back to work, and for you to be the sole career of the child, how would that make you feel? Is that something that you would take on, you know, willingly? - Absolutely. - It makes financial sense. - Mm, I thought that. - But it's something that you would still make you feel unease. In your head, you know it makes sense. When you run the numbers, it makes sense, but how does that personally make you feel? It makes sense for me, because the job I work as QC in like a farm studio called, I'm not passionate about it. (laughing) I do work places, you not hear this, keep going. (laughing) I do want to stay at home work creatively, and that can accommodate me looking after a child as well. It's a bit more different for Morgan, because, no, I think I agree with the, like, situation, circumstance. For me, bringing up a kid is a team task. It's not one person. When the baby's reliant on the female, right? I feel like it's my role as a partner to support both the kid and the female. And then, after, right, like, you know, - After those biological needs. - Exactly, have been met, right? I think it's a teamwork. I wouldn't mind taking shifts, same thing. And I think, like for me, ideally, it's a team exercise. - It's a sacrifice on both sides. - Yeah, I would like to put it that way. And if I needed to, if the circumstance was, I needed to stay at home, I feel like I'm lucky enough to be in a field where, now, after COVID, it has been proven that I can't. And I think that's a good thing. But I think, yeah, it's definitely about negotiation and about, like, discussing and working as a team with your partner. - So, the answers you guys have given to me that feels like you guys are very much in the minority way of thinking. And I'm not sure where I'm getting that sense from, but. - As you become more, I would actually talk to my wife. - Work? - Yeah, more work, yeah, more work. - I know I'll get no financial satisfaction from my job, so money shouldn't be what I'm pursuing anyway. Like, it just suits me as a person, as I have thought about it. I would suit, you know, - Yeah, I guess for me, for me, family has always been a priority for me. So right now, because in the absence of having like a family of my own, you know, my parents make up most of that priority. And so like for me, money is just the means to get somewhere short, the more you make, the better off the more opportunity you can have. But like if I had to sacrifice family for that, that's something I would never do. And so I think that's again up to priority. And so like having a family of my own, like even if it meant, you know, taking a shit ass job out in broken hill or whatever, and I needed to find some place, but because it works better for the family as a whole, I'd be all for it. And I would hope that like my partner thinks in the same way. So if, for example, I do have a great opportunity, that affords both the kid and her better opportunity as a family, she would also make that sacrifice same as I would. - Do you think that way of thinking is common against amongst other guys' our age? Or do you think that majority of guys still fall on that idea of, no, as a guy, we should be the breadwinner or we should provide for our family? 'Cause that's a very gender role thing. And I think that's very passed down from our parents. - I think if you ask guys, they'll tell you what you want to hear. (laughing) - I guess. - I don't know, like 'cause saying one thing is, like it's different to actually-- - Exactly, exactly. - Yeah, it's very, two very different things. And then you actually know the answer that you should say, but it's what you want to hear. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, what you will do, yeah. - So, I don't know. (laughing) - Yeah, I feel like though, interestingly, I do hang around a lot of guys and also, luckily, not within the company of females. So when I ask some of these questions, I feel like it's mixed, but I would definitely say, the way I think is definitely not a minority within the Asian male, I guess, but what's a chord? - Darius, bro. - He's a nice boy. - I don't know. - I don't know, section of this population. - Okay. - But I do, I do know some males who literally drop everything. And I also know some females who literally drop everything for the purpose of pursuit of money and success. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Bring it back. I guess, well, no, it's not. Bring it back. 'Cause it's very much related to the discussion, like how much do these, how much do you have traditional ideas of masculinity hold today? So I guess these are the old ideas from the old episode, being assertive, being independent, being stoic. Like, are these ideas outdated? - Or, I'd like to probably take, maybe talk about two, ideals maybe, so I think we've already touched a little bit on motherhood, parental and family. And I do see change. I mean, I look at, even when you go to workplace, you no longer have paternity maternity leave. It's not about maternity being the year long leave and paternity being the four week leave. It's like primary care, secondary care, which I think is a good move. And it sort of takes that whole family aspect. But one thing that I think I did touch a little bit on the whole dating episode was also about, like, I guess, in relationships, the roles and responsibility in relationships. That was one thing that I feel like still definitely stems, a lot on the whole traditional masculinity idea. Like, a girl should be, wait, should wait to be courted, rather than to take the first step. I don't know if it's true, but that's the gut feel I got from talking to a lot of guys who are on the opposite stuff like that. - Like, you have to be a man taking the initiative, for a moment to do that. - Yes, yes. Even if you're attracted, it's like you wait to be courted. - So that idea of the guy is the assertive dominant one, the girl is more submissive? Is that that you're getting more submissive, more passive? - More passive, exactly. Like, you don't want to go, oh, I actually, you know, I think that idea is still very, very relevant to him. - Very much a lot. - It's just changed in how it presents itself. So the dating apps, that's a really good example. I just think it's changed in how it presents. I think it's still very much out there. And I think it's just an idea that's been perpetrated by the media. - And culture itself. - Yeah. - And I want to add to that, it's like, it's not about who makes the initiative. It's actually about the fact that you're making initiative is a desirable trait in a man like that assertion, that confidence, right? Like something that's expected. - Yeah, something that's expected. Like if they didn't make that initiative, it's like, ooh, this guy might not be, you know, self-confident. They might not have the drive. They might not have the ambition. - Yeah. - And you get punished for it. Like essentially, if you're not displaying this trait, like masculine trait, society would punish you for it. Like you've seen as a lesson man. So like, there's a lot of ideas dictated by society, like, muscular, like physically, and like traits that we should hold. Some ideas contradict with being a good human, like being patient, being understanding, which was why there was so much contradiction in that first episode. - When you talked about masculinity versus being a human, being a good human. - Yeah, and these are two identities that you both have to satisfy. So, which would you place more weight on? And I mean, it's not which we should place more weight on. - That's just like, how do you reconcile the two? - How do you prioritize? How do you prioritize these two ideals? I feel like if your main drive right now was, get me a girlfriend, you'll probably prioritize what? Society perceives as like desirable female traits. But if your priority, I guess it's not that, I would, I would like to take that everyone has the good in them to prioritize being good human being. - It's a bit commuter and like, right? I mean, to switch between the two. - Yeah, which is-- - Which is very situational dependent as well. So, how you present yourself in a workplace is obviously very different to how you present yourself on the dating apps, how you present yourself with friends. - Yeah. - It's almost as though, yeah, it's very context dependent, exactly. It's almost as though those traits that you talk about, so masculine traits or, I guess, just being a good person trait. - Professional traits. - Professional traits, you turn them on, you turn them off because it depends on who you're trying to appeal to. And what sort of success you're trying to get, depending on the situation. - I guess where I was contradicting myself was those gender roles that we had to play, 'cause I do feel as though, man still has a role to play, female roles, a role to play. Like, are you talking about the whole, okay, being assertive, being not as caring in the family emotion, in the family, not showing your emotions and whatever. When-- - I think the idea of stoicism is outdated. - Oh, didn't. - That's something out of those three traits that you listed at the top of this. - Yeah, 100% agree. - I'm actually like, it just gives me shit about it all the time. It's like, you should talk a little bit less, appear more mysterious. (laughing) Always, she's like, you talk too much. - You want to do more of that brooding? - Yeah. - All that brooding thing I'm like, now my face doesn't do me justice, man. I can't pull that off. I mean, just runs counter. That stoic attitude does run counter to, today's Western attitudes, like Western ideas. You're supposed to express yourself. You're supposed to say what you want. And if you don't, you get punished as well, right? I mean, you get punished mentally. Like you actually get punished by yourself, by not voicing what you want. - Yeah, mental health. - Yes. - I guess, you very interestingly talked about context. - Mm-hmm. - I can relate something to that. I can relate that idea of like higher occupying every context because there is a higher occupying for every context. I guess the most primitive hierarchy, I mean, the most like Darwinian hierarchy is when everyone's in high school, right? Everybody can't. - Oh my God. I mean, you have to talk about it. - Okay, yeah, we're trying to get a girlfriend, trying to get a. - And so be growing yourself into those, like certain groups have more like social capital. - I'm gonna say this. My experience is Boko, pre-year 11, our grade was a shit show of a societal hierarchy. Like there was a lot of what's the word for it, like what you talked about, social capitalism. - Yeah, I'm gonna know this. - There were clicks. - But that's what high school is. And that's like the most urban. - Do you think that was just a Boko thing? So you enter roots, afterwards. Was that just a Boko thing? I always wanted that. - No, no, no, no. - Because Boko now grade was fucking weird. - No. - The back of our grade had clicks, and then each click had a name, that's fucking weird. - Yeah. - That is weird. - I mean, but it builds on the same idea. I think in any high school, you would form these clicks. Wherever they are named or not, and they would have one group would be saying, I would like to say that. - Hi, I'm standing. - I'd like to say in Boko, the clicks were a bit more segregated, and they were a bit more profound. If I look at like roots, - Yeah, so when I went to roots, you definitely have fewer clicks. - Or more mixing or so. - You had like, you really had like, maybe a top three, but it wasn't that these clicks didn't get along with each other. There was no, I wouldn't use a word hate, but like, you know, teenage hate, like, or look that person does really fit in with us. So no, they're exiled. - Right. We're coming from the context of being selective school students. Like, could you imagine this in like, oh no, it's true. That's why I don't dispute that there are. - In like a high school. but I would like to say like it's not, it's definitely not something like super, super prevalent, there are probably worse clicks in some high schools, there are high schools and grades even in generations where there's less clicks. I guess what I was trying to get across is that these hierarchies exist and they exist, they exist as well. Yeah, while we are unconscious of them and these hierarchies exist in all contexts as well, like professionally because I mean that's the most concrete example. I'll bring up a great example in Sydney, suburbanism, what suburb you live in. As soon as I say a suburb, you have a picture of a person who comes from there. That's a very, I've spoken to a lot of people when I went traveling and stuff like that, it's a very Australian, not even Australian, like Sydney thing to have. That's because that's the city we know though. I'm sure, like you can think of like East and London, you can think oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's definitely not as prevalent, like here, like for them it's sort of more like oh you live in the CBD or you live whatever, here we literally have demographics, your own Westie, or even greater Sydney, like it's not even about like you know you live in the city or you don't, it's like you live in the city, you're this, you live East and suburb, if you live Northern beaches, we know the nuances of the city and yeah, I'm sure this exists in Melbourne right? No, so I talk about it sort of exists. It's sort of but like it's not as like clear cut. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, okay, let's bring that back to the idea of hierarchy. I feel like we've gone on a bit of a challenge. I'm sorry. If we go back to high school, for example you were saying high school hierarchy, different clicks, those are hierarchy, where does that hierarchy come from? What is it based on? That's idea of having better social standing for one group versus another one. What is that based on though? Okay, that based on interest, is it based on if a certain group has are more procedures like the af males and they're able to get chicks, like where does that come from? I guess in the higher school it would be charisma, it would be outgoingness, like how how much you project these, actually no, what is it? If so, yeah, like if you think about it. I think if I had to highlight it from like outspokenness, right? Okay. If the highlight from movies, right? Three key attributes, one, athleticism. Yeah, oh, how school you are. Okay. Two, you're right charisma, so chick magnetness. Is that even a trait like, yeah, chick magnet. I genuinely shot it. Yeah, where I use my chick magnetness is gross, right? Yeah. But that's the way, you know, like movies, poetry. You are right. Like how well some groups would be able to mix with like females, like in male clicks. Yeah. And then three is 100% interests, right? And like I think not so relevant to ball co-pets slightly, like if I looked at our clicks and leading, I think your point of our for male really brought that to light. But also I'd like to say, wasn't there also like girl groups as well? Like they were. Yeah. Exactly. Like as in we also had sometimes almost had this gender divide as well. It's like you had primarily male groups and then you had primarily female. And then you had mixed groups. And yeah, mixed groups. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like, I don't know, for me that's, I think that's what defines like these social hierarchies in a school anyway. In a school. Yeah. But these hierarchies do exist like everywhere else. Yeah. And they tend on specific traits. Yeah. I mean, but I feel like in society what I'll say is people are less, they're more politically correct. Is that just because we're older and we're more I think it's because of older also is because it's not just like it's what's it called it's not acceptable in society to like exiled people if that makes sense. I don't actually agree with that. I think I think you're right, but it's not that it's that it's not exprofessionally acceptable to openly exiled. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Sorry. That's my word. Yeah. To overtly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To openly exiled someone. And you can see when people do that, you get criticized. China. But no, but it comes to it comes to it comes to being anyway. Like you do get punished if you do. It is. It's a very hard topic. But yeah, how do we look at that? But I think like, I think from a societal, I guess if you want to talk about social hierarchy, do you still right now? I'll just put it this way. Do you guys still see a very male dominated hierarchy? Haraki, so by using the word Haraki, it means there's a pyramid. Do you guys see that? No, depends on the gender of the hierarchy, right? I mean, if you're in your group of male friends, that's the hierarchy within the group. And if you're in a group of female friends, then that same hierarchy wouldn't apply it because context is completely different. Yeah. But like, there would be like some pyramids. But if I had to say like in general society in Litt's abstracted away from like professional profession or work, in general, do you guys see the hierarchy, like a male oriented hierarchy or a female into hierarchy? I guess the most overt example would be the profession, right? Depends on your profession obviously. Depends on your profession, but I would say in general, yes. Absolutely. But I think that comes from thinking about the opportunities that are given to women versus men. I think the hierarchy exists because there is that thing of male privilege. Guys are afforded more opportunities to go up the ladder. So obviously, is that a male or a male because they're already in that position? Correct. So you think about CEOs? Yeah. majority of them are men. And is that because they perceive motherhood as a risk? Or they question your decision making because I would like to say look females and no dumb of them and they're probably more intelligent on average, right? No, no, no. And I appreciate that a lot of them think not just with their IQ, but with their EQ. Right? Like why is that not a defining trait of leadership? Right? Like why is there less of them in leadership positions? Right? And it's because like you know, motherhood is considered a risk. They're thinking with emotion is considered a risk in how I think about it. If you're in this position of power, it's just how well you relate to this other individual. If you're in if you're a network, how well can I work with this person? Like and how much you can relate to this? And does that tie back to your first initial notion is that like society or as a as a construct reward, not our goaliness, but I was the word for it like extrovertedness. Like people who throw themselves out there are more communicative relate to people establish more networks. Generally, yeah. In most hierarchies, yes. I think in established professional fields, and I think that's purely because a lot of those fields are, for example, in medicine, scientists, things like that, they're dominated by what you would call like the old old voice club. Old guys club. Gentleman's club. Gentleman's club. Yeah. Yeah, I think when if you've got, for example, if you think about in politics, okay, a lot of the MPs, they tend to be old white guys. Yep. And that's why there's that limit to how many to the number of female politicians there are out there, or if there is a woman who is who comes into a position of power often, they are the language that is used to talk about them. They're often put down. And I think just in society, women who have taken those in quotation marks, masculine traits being confident, things like that, it's turned against them and it's made that arrogant or they're overzealous. Ambition can be seen as being overzealous if it's displayed in a woman. So do you reckon then the reason why society still hold on to some of these traditional masculine identities is because a lot of our leaders and a lot of our people in the higher pyramids of society are still of the older fashion male. Do you see that as we progress as a society and you've got more people like that? More generations and social consciousness. Yeah. Do you think that's going to change? I really fucking hope so. I really hope so. But yeah, I guess the underlying question is do you see that younger males generally these days embody the culture of being more accepting and being more open? I don't think that they necessarily are more accepting and more open and more aware of their advantages and disadvantages that come with generals. More understanding. More understanding. Yeah, I think I don't think I think having the knowledge that there is that divide is very different to just the way that people act because obviously the way that you act, you will always do things that are in your best interest. If you are having some sort of privilege from society like male privilege, you have to take advantage of it. Yeah, you're not going to necessarily dissadvantly. advantage yourself because for the sake of giving more opportunity to women because why would you put yourself into disadvantage? I do hope that with the way that we raise our kids and they raise their kids, the thinking will change. And that as the old guys die out, all the boomers go. [LAUGHTER] Is that OK? What was the word for it? OK, boom. OK. Yes. OK, everyone. This is that kind of faces out. I'm kind of really nice. So as they die, essentially, that the way of thinking will change. Because you feel like it's hard. And that, yeah, that equality will slowly come about more and more. And it's not going to be in our lifetime. It's not going to be in our kids lifetime. Talking about it. Because it is a cultural thing. And it is a society. It's so deeply ingrained, which years and years and years and years and generations that have gone by with the same thinking. If you compare the way that we think to the way that, for example, our grandparents think, those gender roles are-- Very different. --very, very different. It's more balanced now. It's not balanced. But it's more balanced than it was for them. And I think as you keep going, the scale slowly tips tiny bit more each time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. At least that's what I hope will happen. I think we do agree. We see-- I think a lot of the masculinity idea-- ideals that we have today, or what we perceive as outdated, strives because society right now is still in the hands of older gentlemen, boomers. Yep. And they basically-- we perceive that they basically control and mandate some of these, I guess, barriers to entry for opportunity. And that's why there are still these ideals. And I think what we're saying is we're hoping that with the way, I guess, our parents brought us up how we bring each other up through our comparison of our notes with our parents and our role models, and how we bring our kids up. We slowly change that balance. Yeah. The more generations that come through, they'll be more and more hopefully socially aware. So how does it come into fruition more professional opportunities? So no. So just more people-- I think it's more having the conversation, not just acknowledging, OK, I've got this privilege cool, but it's actively having the conversation, thinking about why do I think the way that I think? Why do I have the privileges that I have? And just being more cognizant of that and where you can try to provide more opportunities, try to think, but OK, if being stoic is not a good thing, let's push it back against that. I'm going to do it, yeah. It's purely having a conversation. It's not-- there's no fix for it. Not in our lifetime. There's no fix for it. I think in something that I think-- what's the call-- the can has been opened. And I feel like the can of worms have been opened. And I think we are now starting to see some of these perspectives, which is good. And I think that good way, good as in we are starting to see. It's a change in society. It can't change something that you don't understand, or what you haven't thought about. Yeah. And I think for some, it's too late for some of the people who are already leading society today, right? Just because it's so new to them. It's like when you have technology, people can't adapt to new technology. I've had an idea if you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Yeah. But I feel like with society now is like, we are starting to perceive some of this, like, back to our example, stoicism. That was a desirable trait, right? In males, we're starting to say, hey, is it really a desirable trait? And I think our female counterparts also think the same thing. Like, do we really want a stoic dude as my partner? Like, and I think that slow change of desirability and personality, hopefully in the future as, you know, more of us become leaders in society, we can then begin to change that. Yeah. If that makes sense, in a societal context. Yeah. Like, I think right now, we can definitely change that in our immediate family. And so when you're looking for a partner, you can already see that level of quality, but it's a pretty hard-ass, to say, can we change it as a society as a whole, like overnight, if that makes sense. Yeah. I know what it is, because your idea of being a man is so ingrained, it's so tired to go with being like, like, within a family as well. So that's, yeah, it doesn't, it wasn't the discussion that, uh-uh. Yeah, that's what I said. Like, for me, it was like, for the idea of being a man is three parts. One is as an individual, two is as a family, and three is in society. Right, that for me, I believe is my social responsibility, or like my responsibility as a man, on three layers, right? Um, and I think we did talk about role model, which was like individual. So like what I perceive as an individual of a man should be like, two generals in a family, right, we started talking about that a lot, and three was, what, the society expected of me as a man. Okay, do you want to talk about, something you guys talked about last, uh, podcast was about toxic masculinity. Mm-hmm. Let's talk about that. What's the definition of toxic masculinity? So, actually, what's your perspective on toxic masculinity? To me, toxic masculinity is when a group of guys get together and the way that they behave is in such an alpha male type that it's to the detriment of somebody else, of a, to the detriment of either someone who doesn't, um, who doesn't click with them? Click with them? Yep. So for example, because their idea of masculinity is very heteronormative. Yeah. Um, I don't feel a big with discussion because I feel-- Are you worried about? No, I feel we'd be, we'd already come to the idea that, oh, toxic masculinity is bad. Like, when it's-- Because in this, in the context of the say, when is it ever okay to display these traits? When you're, you know, you're not being a good human. You do, you're-- But we can still talk about why, why it happens. Do you want to know where it would be? One, I wouldn't use what desirable, but where it would be to fit in. Yeah. Like, I think, I'd say we're fit-- Well, most of us are fairly lucky to work in an industry where like, you know, we can be transparent and we can, you know, disagree with things without having a lot of-- Blow back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, blow back on yourself, on your job, on your financial security, all that sort of stuff. But that is not so for a lot of people. And I do know some people. Well, I've experienced it myself as well. And it's-- So I'm not going to name. Yeah, of course. So I was working-- Oh, and a professional context. And a professional context. You know, Friday night drinks very normal. Someone was leaving. And the guys wanted to hit up a-- I don't know if it's quite a strip club, whatever. It was called like-- Gentleman's assistant. Gentleman's assistant. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. And so they wanted to, like, for me, I feel fairly uncomfortable about that. One from, I guess, just from the context of, like, these guys, but two or so, like, I'm not a big fan of actively objectifying women and these establishment is literally designed to do that. Right? So like, even for, like, you know, my friends, bucks and stuff, I don't want to touch that sort of stuff, just because of that reason. But yeah, so there, I had either-- one choice, I was still an intern, right? So I had either, you know, go with them to keep it, or I go, nah, not doing it. And then they'll give me shit for, like, the rest of the place. And result, I didn't go. I left the place, right? But like, that's because I had that opportunity, which is amazing, but like, not everyone has that-- Not everyone feels that they can. Yeah. And like, some people, they could have taken 10, 12 years to find that job, right? Like, in other places, maybe not in Australia, right? Would you give up 10 years worth of hard work? Like-- I do not feel-- Exactly. So not necessarily a choice. Yeah. Because, yeah, in some contexts, you do have to play that part, I guess. But like, more and more, like, these are-- these hierarchies, they're not overt or-- And it changes. So like, one of the questions I had in the chat was, those ideas of masculinity that you guys have, or that society dictates. Like, why do you guys, or why do men subscribe to them? Yeah, why do you conform to it? Is it for the purpose of getting a partner? Like, do you think it's something that it's desirable to women? Or is it-- So this is unrelated from toxic masculinity? Yeah. Yeah. To general in general. It's just in general. Is it to get a partner? Like, are these traits desirable in order to get a partner? Or is it to be more desirable to other guys in a pack mentality? So you can separate it into workplaces? Not as I was the guys, but like to-- No, because you're trying to appeal to other guys for a pack mentality thing. You can separate it into, I guess, work context and social context. Why do you do this thing, you do? What is the purpose of it? In a social context, it's both-- actually, it comes-- It is both the idea of being masculine for social credit and to elevate yourself in that social hierarchy. Then these are interlinks ideas that you can't separate the two because-- I guess being high within this social hierarchy, higher up, you're rewarded with more resources, be it like sexual or monetary or resources you enjoy. I guess I'm thinking from like a really, really like Darwinian perspective, but I think these are unconscious ideas that we subscribe to. I feel like I'm definitely guilty of a lot of that like in, and I think back to your point, context matters a lot. There's not been guilt, it's just why I do subscribe to these ideas of masculinity. It's because it's literally, you're being rewarded for it's this strategy. I think like for me, if I had to break into two right, like from a social context point of view, you definitely subscribe, as you said before, about fitting in. Because I think, oh, do this like you're told to get. That sense of belonging. Oh my gosh. I need it. I think people need it. In general, I think there are rare few human beings who are very happy about socializing. I'd say, look, I can probably do that for a while, but at some point I will. And I think that is probably the fear of losing that connection, sometimes outweighs that. I think I'm now lucky enough to have a group of friends who are very open-minded. You do more hate, try to foster who you are rather than ask you to conform to who they are. I think that's great. But not always. I've had groups of friends in high school, in uni, where it was the other way around. I think I tend to always have that personality of people, please, which is really bad when it comes to. I'm the same. I'm the same. That fear of not being liked. And I think that's very dangerous, especially in those contenders. I guess from another point of view, like from a relationship point of view, I think I do conform to it. Because, again, I think it comes back to the fear of not being able to find someone right view. So you adapt yourself to those traits in order to be like, "Look, I might be desirable." I think I'm slowly not doing that anymore. I give less shit about that now. Because you know what you have is enough. And more so because I, me and the person, won't be happy if I'm. If you're putting on a front in order to try and place them. And this is different to self-improvement. I'm all about self-improvement. So my negative traits I want to improve, but there are some things that I don't want to do because that's not me. One thing I want to mention is, as we do grow older, the less we can be independent of these hierarchical structures as well. Which is why many. I've seen many examples. Many guys choose to just form their own hierarchies with like their girlfriend. And then they just. They would sit independent of the social groups that they used to belong to. Like, they would be. They would be. They would be content. Yeah. Okay. Whoever they found it. Is it because they were uncomfortable in that previous situation? Maybe. But that's what. I think it's shift in priorities. It also is because you are forming your family as well, right? Yeah. You are forming your own hierarchy. I mean, we're. I feel like we've rattleed here. You're being rattleed here. It didn't go as a plan. The spectives are not exactly what people would come around. Yeah. It didn't go to plan, but it should be fine. And I guess I'll touch upon a final question because I feel it's. I mean, it's what I wanted to get across. Should men choose individualism over masculinity? And that's. I mean, and that's under the pre-preface. Preface? That individualism or the ideals behind the individualism is like in juxtaposition to. The higher human being. In juxtaposition to a society masculine, the ideals. Yeah. Because I. I guess my argument is that culture. Because of the time, culture doesn't have the best interests of the individual. Yeah, of the individual. It's more for the individual to decide that themselves, decide how they do want to be portrayed. I guess I do understand what you're trying to say. Like, should you choose to be who you are above conforming to what society think men should be? Yeah, is that a bit of a. I had a stream of conscious moment where, as I was saying that, I was like, as long as you have enough sex. And I was like, oh, oh. Wait, what? And I was like, all right, so talking really frankly, it's something that guys need and probably something that girls need as well. And that just completely derailed my. So you're thinking of it more very primal way? No, as long as your personal needs are met, not so much in a prime way. As long as your personal needs are met, you should be able to be any individual you want. That's why I just got completely derailed. So I guess the question is, yeah, you're asking if all your personal needs are met? Yeah. To some extent, you need to be a man to meet your personal needs. Because. You mean you have a hand? It's not enough. It's not enough. It really isn't enough. And you can talk. Males never graduate from their hand. They grow up. They grow up stunted. These are stunted individuals. That's what I feel. Because they don't have that. Interaction, they don't have that client's social bond with the house? They don't have that minimum level of perceived masculinity. And. Right, right, right. I got even. So like if you were a single male at the age of 40 and had never had a girlfriend, you feel like. Well, even at 25. Like, that's a tough place for a young male to be. And. How would that conversation ever even come on? Have you ever banged anyone yet? At 25. Like, how would that conversation ever come on? You don't even have to see that conversation. You can see these males. Okay, how do those guys present people? I guess males who haven't had sexual experiences that they. Like, how does that present themselves? How does that present? These are really low-confidence males. Not. How would they present? Low-confidence in respect to how they interact with females or. I would like to argue this, like. I'm gonna say your physical personal needs, like, beyond your sex, but all your physical personal needs, like that you can only get from a female. The lack of. I feel like you are making a very big generalization. That's pe. If you lack it, you have a very. You were talking from your own point of view? No, no, no, no, I'm talking because I. I got a judge. I have Christian friends. They've definitely never. Like most of them have never, you know, banged before 25. Like, if they get married at 28, they're definitely never banged before that. But I don't see them as individuals who are stunted or lack-confidence. That's because that's the value set that Christian subscribe to. Whereas if you're in, like, the wider Western society. But what about someone, for example, who identifies as being asexual? Are they stunted? Are they stunted? Necessarily? Like, genuinely asking, like, does that make them stunted? Someone who doesn't feel that they need that sexual interaction with someone? Being controversial is asexuality being used to justify their lack of. Okay, let's define what is asexuality? Like, what is your understanding of it? You don't feel an attraction to. Is it romantic or sexual attraction? I actually don't. I think it's an example of sex. Because I don't know any. Yeah. I think I remember if I remember reading about this because I was reading about. Like, a few really successful science-spakendays. And I think they were posed, I don't know, if I was asexual. But it's about sexual attraction. You may have a reference. You have a reference. Yeah. But you don't feel the need to act on it sexually. Yeah. And I don't think that's a. Again, like, if we want to talk about personal needs met by others, it is like for me it's about compatibility. I don't think. I do see some people are. For better or for worse, use the word stunted because of that. Right? But I think that's a self-imposed. Yeah, because it's. They feel it's something. Yeah, missing. It's not always, if that makes sense. You can still be a whole being. As long as you're. As long as you truly believe that. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I agreed that not having had sexual experiences as a guy would make you stunted. Is it in high school? In high school, you need people to joke about it. Oh, this guy still. or vergy, whatever. But I think once you get into workplace or you get to society, it's, I guess, less, less. I'm talking personally because there was a time where I really liked confidence. And it wasn't because I hadn't had sense. It's just because I just didn't feel-- because I guess there was this alpha idea that I was describing to this alpha idea of masculinity, unconsciously, whatever. And I just didn't-- I felt I didn't meet that image. And it was only when I was able to change myself to meet that image, oh, go to the gym, or-- I guess I became-- I was able to gain that confidence. I actually see myself rise up to that image. And that was a very important time in my life. I talked about this briefly in the other episode. Some males might never find that. And it's not because they didn't have sexual contact. It's just because they didn't-- they just feel-- they just feel deficient in some way. Like, deficient in that-- in masculine ideals or such. Yeah, no, I do agree with that. And like, I don't argue with you that, like, you know, some people do have less-- or the confidence because of it. But I think it's a very individual thing. It's your perception of yourself-- And comparing yourself to society's benchmark, which is a very dangerous thing. And like you have two sides of a coin, you've got people that do and lose that confidence. Then you've got the other people who then overcompensate. Because of that societal expectation. But I think it's a very personal thing, like-- Yeah. And to a personal as to what you subscribe to-- What your scribe is success. It's your personal-- What are the markers of that? It's your personal benchmark and also maybe, to an extent, your friend's circles benchmark, or your close-- your tier one social circle image of you. So I guess the answer is-- You have to recalibrate your-- You have to calibrate your card-- You have to get success. I think you-- I think with anything, you have to be grateful with what you have and be confident what you have. Understand your shortcomings. Improve them if you can. If you can't, right? Just have it in mind. But like, note that nobody's perfect. And you shouldn't let one rule a measure who you are. Because in every context, people, other people, value different things in individuals. And that should be the rule that you think about, rather than a generic benchmark, to say, or, look, guys have to be six foot tall. They have to not be a version, whatever, right? Like, yeah. And sort of thinking about yourself and your trait and thinking about what's realistic as well. You talk about the whole six foot thing. Like, if you're not six foot, then that's never going to be realistic. Exactly, right? Yeah. It's never going to be realistic. Find someone who's ruler doesn't say six. Or convinced that what would you even need a six foot person for? That was actually a really interesting discussion. The other day, we were sitting around and then, some of our colleagues was like, yeah, they kept going on about this six foot thing. They're not exactly the tall. Wait, so six foot as in, like, guys should be-- But, like, they want someone who's six foot or higher. And I'm like-- Whether it's female colleagues? Yeah, female colleagues. And I was like, what's that? I thought about this, actually. I find it very interesting that for girls, they have this idea that a male partner should be taller than them. Six foot would be nice. And they should be older. Tall? Maybe, maybe. But the six foot one was what was very interesting. It's like the-- And where did that number come from? Yeah, where did that number come from? And I was talking to this girl and she was like, it's less so about six foot. It's more so about the perception of being tall. Like, the guy in the context of where they are is perceived as tall. Oh, no. No, they took it to security. Like, size in this term height, emphasize the security. So someone who's taller, they feel more secure. Psychologically? Psychologically. And I was like, wow. Does that go back to the whole idea of general's that idea of, like, girls? I've been told they should be passive. They should be-- They're weaker. They're weaker. They're looking, yeah. And weaker. Yeah. I mean, which is very interesting. I mean, the most primal hierarchy there is, like, selecting a partner or a-- And you'd want to-- The physical traits. Yeah. It comes out to physical traits. And why these are still important. But I thought I thought I was just an interesting take, because I've always questioned that. I mean, like, we're on this whole subtle Asian traits stuff. They make drinks about that all the time. And also-- Where does that-- Yeah, we did actually come from, like, why-- Why six foot-- what a number. Like-- Just, yeah, it's the language that's been used. Like, where does that language come from? At what point does it start to influence the way that you think? Yeah, the three sixes. What was it? Have you heard about the three sixes? No, right? Is it the three six-- Yeah, six six six. No, no, no, no. So it was like six foot, six pack, six figures. And then there's also the four sixes. What's the fourth six? Six inch. No. OK. OK. [MUSIC PLAYING] OK. What I have learnt from all these-- from these two masculinity podcasts, before the first masculinity podcast, I felt-- looking back, I just felt blind. Honestly, like, being the view that you see the world, and not being conscious of what plays a part in it, like, how do you notice all of this, but you never consciously thought about it? Yeah. And you never attribute it to being a man. But all of it is linked back to being a man, or dissatisfactions, or the motivations, or the drives you felt. So that was how I felt coming out of that first podcast, when I had months and months to look back on that. Coming into this podcast, it still felt as though-- I mean, talking-- I couldn't really relate to your ideas. So that idea of being a man is still larger than it is, larger than my idea of being a man. There's still so much more to talk about, and how Morgan exclusively linked it back to family more than anything, whereas I was proceeding it as more-- More societal. More societal. But still, that idea of family being so important, because that's how you wage yourself being a man. And obviously, being a man, family would be one of the most important milestones that you would have in your life. It is really important. Yeah. I don't know what to take away from the points that you brought up. Because-- I mean, if you're a priority-- so I guess Morgan's priority for masculinity is that family basis. For you, you say yours is more societal. What-- we've talked a lot about success. What do you see as success? Because that's ultimately what your-- I guess, how you present yourself, masculine or not. That's what you're actively trying to achieve. And that's how you present yourself. My idea of success is the achievements that I could measure myself by. So this would be in music or writing. And these ideas-- I feel are independent of masculinity. So in that sense, less than less-- Yeah, I feel like masculinity is-- like masculinity, if I had to say, is a array of traits that define what being a man is. I think with anything when you talk about definition, it comes to context. So that's why I keep bringing it back to family. Sure, we talked a lot about that. Because one of our discussions was general around-- a lot of what and what not-- where family plays a big part. But that for me is like one, only one of said circles of influence what we talk about around masculinity. Society is a bigger one on top of that. Society contains a lot of families. You take certain ideals and traits from how you are as a man, in your family, and take it into society. But society itself has a different perspective on what a man is. Like that for me is what I see masculinity. But then at the very core of it, you've also got you as an individual how you perceive yourself as a man. And I think each three of these, if they all line up all good and well, but in most cases, they don't. And that's where you see some of these-- I'd like to say like negative identities or positive identities of-- I might feel lacking. Yeah, exactly what being a man is like. Right. Because you benchmark yourself against-- you see yourself as an individual. To your peers in the video, you benchmark yourself as a family man. against what society or what other people think of you as a family, and then you bench yourself against what society expects of a man in a professional, just like general, like a society, sort of a society manner. Ian, for out of curiosity, for you is your idea of success? Does it come from that skill, having a skill, or does it come from recognition of the skill? It would be both. Okay. It would be having a really specific skill that not many people have access to, so that already that places you niche. You find a niche and it places you above the layman, right? And recognition for that skill because I do want to feel as though I'm putting something back into culture, even though it's a cultural idea that I'm trying to run against. Yep. But no man can say they're independent from culture, right? But I think, yeah, like based on that, I think that is what's called independent. Being a man, what is dependent on being a man? Is your definition of nature? Yeah, my measure is your measure. That is my measure, and my measure would come back to culture in the end. Because I guess if for you, you could have a skill, anyone could have a skill, but in order to have that recognition of the skill, enough to be a mastery. Yeah, well, that, but also you need to be able to, I guess you talk lots about that hierarchy. You need to be able to play into that hierarchy in the end, in order to get that recognition, otherwise, you'll never succeed. Yes, and there are weaknesses from that. I ultimately, in the end, I do know that personal satisfaction, like it has to be, it has to break like a personal standard, it has to be above a personal standard so everyone has their own definition of success. Yeah, I think ultimately, the thing you should try to take away from this is understanding what your definition, personal definition of success is, what you want to achieve, and then having an awareness of how to reconcile that success that you have, or that you want to achieve with respect to society, like how you're going to achieve that, because ultimately, there are going to be the societal barriers that come with masculinity, and trying to adhere to that masculinity. Yeah, that is the, that is the takeaway from this episode. So basically, the answer was, should we choose individualism over masculinity? It's a resounding yes. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's a cautious yes. You need to have individualism in knowing what your success markers are, because otherwise, you're just floating through life. You have no ambition, you have no drive, you've got nothing really to work towards, but you can't just say, I'm going to be an individual, fox society, fuck what they think, because you're never going to achieve that. And you do need the support of those. Yeah, you need to be able to, You need to see where you're feeling. Balance between the two, yeah. For now anyway. I think it's crossed. What is, so that your marker for success is that recognition? What about you? I feel like we actually talked a lot about this in another episode. What was the chord? Fudge. No, we talked about it when we're at the, that we're in Bungle. No, no, but we also talked about it during one of the episodes, because we, oh no, it was wrong, Bungle, yeah, the uned, I'm going to call it the uned, so because we never record it. Okay, it was just a bunch of you guys just talking. Yeah, we had a plan to record something like that, and we wanted to talk about, yeah, success and recognition, sex. And I think with the four of us, there were, I guess for me, it was a few surprising answers. I guess for me personally, I can't, I can't say I steer away from recognition, because like recognition is really the defining marker of how people perceive you, as whether you were a sexist, well, not, and I think I alluded to this before, like, previously, I would have been one of those serial people pleases, and I think that, I think that part of me is as ingrained as much as possible. But for me, I think my marker of success is being recognized for something unique. Right, like recognition comes in a lot of forms, like you could come first in the maths test. Sure, you get recognized. But you're not the first to ever receive a maths award, right? I'd be recognized as a trailblazer. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Basically. So I think like being able to achieve something unique for me, being able to do something differently, and being recognized for doing something differently, I think that is probably the most that I can point out when it comes to success. Give us up. For me, I think my ultimate measure of success, it's not something that you can quantify for me. I think for me, my ultimate measure of success is I want to leave this world better than how I've. Yeah, I want to leave this world better than when you're right. Then when I arrive, yeah. Yeah, so for me, that's motherhood is something that I want. I want to be able to have kids and have them grow up better than I did have better ways of thinking from an earlier age as well, because for me, I only started thinking the way I do from the last two, three years maybe. I want them to have that awareness. And I guess, yeah, leave the world better than how I came into it. And I think that's why I've chosen the career path that I have. Hoping people. Hoping people. Hoping people. Hoping the disability sector. It's like a design. Yeah, it's literally. You're only going to change the world with tiny little markers like that. And that's ultimately my measure of success. And I don't know how I'm going to measure that with my own kids. You know what the interesting thing is, as you said, that having talked to a lot of people, sometimes about these topics, I find that a lot of females generally have like smaller, specific, measurable impacts of success, like making changes one by one, whereas guys are going to go, "Yeah, I want to change the world." But have no real like. It doesn't apply to everyone, but I think. I don't think mine's very measurable. But it's like. As far as this definition, is it legacy-os? I don't know what you were saying, and I don't know if that's legacy, necessarily. Legacy is how you want to be remembered, so it's different. It is different. Yeah, yeah, that's not how I want. I don't really care how I've. I'm remembered. I just want to leave this place better. I feel like you want to have a legacy in terms of your children, but not necessarily in the grandest game of things in the system. Yeah, yeah, I guess the legacy would be my children and the people that I've helped, I guess, along the way, but I don't want them to necessarily be like, "Oh yeah, I'm this way because of Florence in." Like, I don't care if that recognition is ascribed back to me. There's no other concrete changes. Yeah. There's almost changes. Correct, yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Thank you for listening. This has been another episode of Lifestyle Regulars with Morgan and Florence. Thank you for having me. Thank you guys.