Episode 222 - Natalee Holloway

With verbal care, help is always ready, before, during, and after your stay. We've planned for the plot twists, so support is always available, because a great trip starts with peace of mind. This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture East, us with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture East, us with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We've been talking about Cupid Mayo for a minute now, and wow! So many of you already love this stuff! And if you're thinking, "Wait, what is Cupid? Do you not have the internet?" It's the OG Japanese mayonnaise, the one with the red cap. What makes it different? Egg yolks. Cupid is made with egg yolks only, giving it this rich, umami flavor that elevates to everything. Chefs use it? Restaurants use it? Where chefs work, of course. Food and flavor lovers use it. You haven't tried it yet? Well, find the red cap and see what everyone's talking about, why don't you? Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. Cupid! I'm Sruti, I'm Hannah, and welcome to Red Handed. Fresh out of the van. Fresh out of the van, van fresh, which is kind of the least fresh you can possibly bit. I'm feeling particularly unfresh. Yes, I need to wash my body. We had our last tour show last night at the Clapham Grand in London, and we have come straight back to the office. We emptied the van, and now we're recording this because we didn't want to let you down. We may be van fresh, but we are not letters down. I don't know, fucking hell, I'm tired, but the tour was amazing. Thank you. Incredible. To everyone who came, we had the best time. We absolutely. I'm so sad it's over, but the good news is, a lot of people on Instagram, etc, have been saying why won't you release a live recording of the tour show? And there's a few reasons. Firstly, venues charge you a lot of money to do it. And secondly, because we're taking the same show to America next year. Because we don't do a different show every night. We craft a masterpiece and do it again and again and again. So that's why we haven't released it as a live show because we don't want to ruin it for next year. No, so stay tuned, US. We are headed your way. We're working on it. So, without being said, thank you to everyone who came once again. Any other announcements? I don't know what we're doing. Who are we? What day is it? I feel like if there's something, it can wait. It can probably wait. If you can't wait, though, for any more red-handed content, you can just continue to obviously listen to this episode, what are about to do? You can also head on over to patreon.com/redhanded where you can get your eyes, ears, and other orifices on all manner of bonus content. And if that is not enough, then head on over to Spotify for our brand new Spotify exclusive show, Sinister societies. We recently just recorded an episode on nexium, which I'm particularly excited about hitting the airways. I don't know when it's coming out, but it will be out. Head on over, maybe it's out now. Go to Spotify, search for Sinister societies, and have a little look-see for yourself. Without shall we crack on? Let's crack the fuck on. Yes. So, on the 30th of May, 2005, Beth Twitty and two of her friends were enjoying a rather luxurious three days sunbathing and relaxing at a lake house in Hot Springs, Arkansas. The whole time, they hadn't had to worry about their kids, who was taking the bins out, or their jobs. It was the soccer mom's dream getaway. So, fully replenished and relaxed on the final evening, it all packed up their things and hopped into Beth's Chevy Tahoe, ready to make their way back to their real lives in Birmingham, Alabama. That's such a mum car. Isn't it? Yeah. I don't know much about cars, but even I know that. But at around 11pm that night, Beth's phone suddenly rang. It was a woman named Jodie Behrmann, and Jodie was one of the seven adult shaperones who had escorted 124 students from Birmingham's Mountain Brook High School on a five-day graduation celebration trip to Aruba. Did you go on a graduation trip? I did not. The only school trip I ever went on that was international was to the fucking trenches of World War I in Belgium and France, which is depressing, but it was literally. Yeah, that's the only time I went on a school organised. Really? Yep. Oh my god, what? That's the only place they took you. What year? Year seven or eight. They fucking shafted you. We went to Prague for our levers. You had a levers? Is this a thing? Yeah, we had a big levers away trip that we went on in year 11, end of year 11. No, nothing like that. Yeah, because most of school didn't sail for six form. So, end of year 11, we went to Prague for like a week and just got wrecked basically the entire time. Now, I think about it, I'm like, "Oh my god, that was so inappropriate." Like, one of our maths teachers was like, sat in our hotel room with our string kick. Oh, dear. I mean, we were 18, but like. Even still, it's a very gray area. I mean, it's not even a gray area. We were 16 if it was before six form. Maybe it was. Maybe it was end of six form there. I can't remember. But, no, definitely not a gray area. He shouldn't have done that. He shouldn't have been doing that. That's a code red area. Code red. That's the. Every teacher is a p-do. So, if you came to the show, you'll know that there's an excellent joke in it. Yeah, if you know, you know. But no, we went to Prague at a great time. I remember that they were like, we have to make it educational in some way. Kind of like how we have to add some business into all of our business expenses. And our head of six form. Oh, it was six form because head of six form took us to. And he made us go to a scoda factory. I didn't realize Skoda would check cars. There you go, everybody. Skoda is a check car. There you go. And I was like, what is educational? Yeah, so we just went and walked around a Skoda factory for like a day and then spent the entire rest of the time drunk. Yes, I actually, I tell a lie. I did go on another school trip. It was a religious studies school trip to the Sinai Desert. Where's that? It's in Egypt. Oh, shit. Mount Sinai is where the Ten Commandments descend. Oh, of course. And also the Burning Bush. So there's a monastery where the Burning Bush allegedly is. So did that, which seems like an odd move for me. But I did get 100% of philosophy levels. So. I mean, I would like to go to those places. I would like to go now that I appreciate it. But at the time, am I going to tell this story? Yes. So me and my best friend from school, Niki, we both went on this trip together. And most of the time we were sleeping literally just under the stars, no tense, nothing. But one day we were sleeping on this farm and there was a toilet, which when you've been in the desert for a week, you're like, correct. Lots of alpharexco poops. Marcasino, a free-to-play winner's paradise, packed with pure excitement, and all the vagus thrills right at your fingertips. Claim your welcome reward today. Visit LoneStarCacino.com for more details and download our app. LoneStarCacino is a free-to-place social casino void with prohibitiveism LoneStarCacino.com for more details and download the app. LoneStarCacino.com Ready to level up your day? Then join me and my friends at LoneStarCacino.com That's L-O-N-E-S-T-A-R Casino, where you can experience the thrill of Las Vegas. No matter where you are, LoneStarCacino.com is an absolutely free-to-play social casino with thousands of games, daily bonuses, free spins and jackpots that pop like fireworks. Hit Puzz on Life and hit Play on LoneStarCacino.com LoneStarCacino is a free-to-play social casino void with prohibitiveism LoneStarCacino.com for more details Sign up today for an incredible welcome bonus. Play bold, win big. Anyway, so it was the middle of the night and there was this toilet which was probably like let's say a good 300 meter walk from where we were sleeping and it's pitch black because it's the middle of the desert so you literally can't see your hand in front of you for this. So I said to Nikki I was like, "Will you please come with me? I really need a wee." And she was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go." And I'm desperate, busting. And there's one toilet and Nikki goes in before me, even though I was absolutely desperate. And then I was standing outside. And it's pitch black, I'm terrified, I'm like 14 and I'm like, "Nikki, can you tell me a story because I'm really scared?" And she started telling me the story that made me laugh so much I pissed myself. Well, I did suspect the end of the story was going to end with you pissing yourself. Yeah, and then I had to walk back to camp with a wet trousers. Always just piss in the open. That's my multi. Well, I'm a lot less gun shy than I was as exited by a seriously and I both taking a wee and full view of an a-roge by Stonehenge. Yeah, I will piss anywhere. I will piss anywhere. Well, thank you for that insight, you're welcome. Everybody good? Everyone on board? Excellent. Good, let's get back to Beth and her friends. Like we said, she'd gone off and taken 124 students to a rubour. And one of these students was Beth's daughter, Natalie Holloway. And it took Beth a second to digest exactly what it was that Jodie was telling her on the phone that night. She could hardly believe her ears because it was every mother's worst nightmare. Natalie had failed to show up at the premier in where everybody was supposed to meet up before making their way back to catch a flight to the states. In fact, nobody had seen or heard from Natalie since the night before. Most mothers would assume their daughter had likely partied too hard and were still passed out in their room, but not Beth. In her own words, I knew immediately that my daughter had been kidnapped in a rubour. Natalie has never been late in her life. And her instincts were not wrong. A group of Nance Lee's friends checks her back. bedroom and found her passport and her luggage. There was no sign that she'd been in the room since the day before. Not allowing herself to panic, Beth jumped in her car and drove at a hundred mile an hour through Mississippi, while phoning 911 to a port that her daughter had been kidnapped in a rubour. And then she phoned her husband, George Twitty, and then she phoned the FBI. "Bets like fucking just super mom." "Yeah, super turbo mom." "She's like, I'm just gonna drive. I'll solve this in my fucking self." So by the time Beth reached Alabama, a family for end this again, this, this family, they are, they are very like well to do, and they've got resources at their disposal. And you're gonna go on to find out just how much, because by the time Beth reached Alabama, a family friend had already chartered a private jet for her, George, and some other friends to fly to a rubour to see if they could find Natalie. They landed on the Dutch Caribbean island the following day at around 10pm, and immediately spoke to Natalie's classmates. And when they did, they found out that Natalie had gone out drinking in the hotel casino with some friends on the night of the 29th, when she had struck up a conversation with a young Dutchman. Later that same night, this same Dutchman had met up with the group again at a local bar, named Carlos and Charlie's, and he had apparently spent the entire night dancing and flirting with Natalie. So this case is probably ringing some very vague bells in the back of your head, and that's because a rubour is where Amy Bradley went missing. Oh, shit. Yes. I forgot that. It's just like three miles off the coast of a rubour when she went missing. Fuck. And I believe there is a reference to Carlos and Charlie's in that story, too, but I can't remember what it is. So yes, another white girl goes missing in a rubour. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. So yes, stay tuned, because the similarities do not end. So Natalie's friends said that they saw her leave with this guy and two other men at one o'clock in the morning. And after looking at CCTV footage, an employee from the holiday in told Beth and George that he recognised the man to be urine van der Sloot, who was well known in the area. What a Dutch name. What a Dutch name. You're in van der Sloot. And urine van der Sloot was born in 1987 in Arnhem in the Netherlands, which is where my Dutch friend Renskeur is from. And he was one of three sons to Anita and Paulus van der Sloot. His father Paulus was a wealthy Dutch lawyer and a judge in training. A lot of upper echelons of society in this episode. I mean, yeah, let's go to a rubour. No, let's not. You'll get fucking trafficked. You'll be fine. I'll be fine. I'm always fine. Unless we go somewhere scary and racist. Oh yeah, true. It's, it's really split down the middle of places we can go. I'll get kidnapped so you'll get racisted. In 1999, the family moved from Arnhem to a rubour because it is the Dutch Caribbean and for colonial reasons, it's very easy for Dutch roof to live there. And urine attended the International School of Aruba as an honour student, which I don't know how much time you spend with international students. Almost none. Red flag. Yeah. I mean, no, actually I know one. Gloria. Oh, Gloria is pretty good. That's it. So I got the best one. Yeah, you got the only one. So within four hours of being in Aruba, Beth and George had already been able to provide the name and address of the man who had last been seen with their missing daughter to the Aruban police. So like you can see, they just get there, they're fucking around. They get the CCTV pulled, they find out who the guy is. And he's super well-known. Everyone on the island is like, that's his house. So like, they've handed all this information to the Aruban police within hours. Which, as we all know, is vital in a missing person's case. So along with two officers and their friends, Natalie's mother and stepfather George immediately made their way to Vander Slute's house and banged on his front door, demanding to know what had happened to Natalie. At first, you're in Vander Slute denied even knowing Natalie's name. But when it became clear that her parents weren't going to accept this, he told them that he had left the bar that night with Natalie and his two friends and that they'd all gone to the beach together. He then said that he had dropped Natalie back at her hotel at around 2am. The two other men, Vander Slute was with that night, were 21-year-old, deep back and 18-year-old Satish Kalpo. Their brothers and they're both from Aruban. And together, they corroborated urine's version of events. You're in went on to say that as he was driving away, he saw Natalie being approached by a mysterious man dressed like a security guard. And that was the last time he ever saw her. But as you all go on to see, you're in Vander Slute changes his story consistently during the course of the investigation. The only thing that's consistent about his story is that he keeps fucking changing it. Beth insisted that her daughter wouldn't have done something as dangerous as getting a car with three men she didn't know. But she also refused to believe that Natalie drank alcohol or had had sex either. I imagine if you are from Birmingham, Alabama. I'm guessing they're only teaching abstinence in schools. Yeah, ESX only. Well fully clothed. Yes, exactly. Natalie's classmates, however, seem to know the other side of Natalie a bit better than her mum did. And, you know, this is typical 18-year-old stuff. Like, obviously, no one's just like telling their mum all the stuff they're up to. And also, I think if you're from obviously, I don't know that much about Alabama. Angela Davis is from Birmingham, Alabama. I wish him. I dated a guy from Birmingham, Alabama. Really? Well, we're on one date with her. Oh, yes, square jaw man, I remember. Looked at Google. See, I'm listening. I know. So, I imagine if you go to, I haven't been to a river, but I have been to a lot of places in the Caribbean. And Island Life is a different vibe. So I can see a young girl from Birmingham, Alabama, thinking that somewhere like a river is very, very safe. Because, you know, there's no adults around. You're not being shaperoned. Your mum isn't there. You're allowed to drink. I can understand. Yeah, and I also haven't been to a river, but it's also just the word of a river sound so touristy. So I think when you're immediately, when you're surrounded by other tourists, you just feel like it's safe anyway. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Out of fucking motorbikes, I got on the back of them Vietnam. Mm-hmm. Like three of us just piled the most Vietnam thing I've ever seen. Was there in Saigon? And no word of a lie. Because obviously, everyone's on my pets. There was a child doing his homework on the back of a moment. That used to be me when we lived in India. My parents still laugh about it. My dad had like a Vespa that me and my mum used to ride around on. And I'd stand at the front and like on the pedals, but where he would have his feet either side of me and the mum would sit on the back. And apparently, I would just like wave at everybody. Oh my God. And that was my favourite thing to do. That is incredible. There is also an incredible picture of Sury as a child when she lived in India. And she's just dressed like the way in the rock jobs and for no reason. I was such. I like didn't. I just wouldn't let my mum brush my hair so she cut it all off. And she'd like part it down the side. So I had a little boy cut. And I'd only. I always dress like a boy. And it's the gold chain. I think it's the gold chain, but it's also the look on my face and the way I've got my hands and my pockets. Anyway, I'll show it on Instagram. You guys can look at it there. Are you wearing a gold chain? Because it's bad news to be bare-necked. Yes. It is bad news to be bare-necked. And like, I like wearing necktresses, but I don't like wearing them all the time. It makes me feel very stressed out. And whenever I go to India, my grandma's like, "Oh, and I was to tip my earrings out when I'm not wearing them." And she's like, "Oh, my God, you look like a peasant." ♪ Low in star casino, you're right where you belong ♪ ♪ Low in star casino dot com ♪ Welcome to Low in star casino, a free to play winners, paradise, pack with pure excitement and all the Vegas thrills right at your fingertips. Visit LowinStarCasino dot com for more details and download our app. LowinStarCasino is a free to play social casino board. Look ahead to visit LowinStarCasino dot com for more details and download the app. ♪ LowinStarCasino dot com ♪ Ready to level up your day? Then join me and my friends at LowinStarCasino dot com. That's L-O-N-E-S-T-A-R Casino, where you can experience the thrill of Las Vegas, no matter where you are. LowinStarCasino dot com is an absolutely free-to-play social casino with thousands of games, daily bonuses, free spins and jackpots that pop like fireworks. Hit Puzz on Life and hit Play on LowinStarCasino dot com. LowinStarCasino is a free to play social casino voidware prohibited. Visit LowinStarCasino dot com for more details. Sign up today for an incredible welcome bonus. Play bold, win big. So anyway, Natalie's parents made it very clear to the investigators that Natalie wasn't the type to abstain from alcohol. She was very much there to party. They all were. They were very clear. The trip to Aruba was a party holiday. You don't go to Aruba to not do a party holiday. Yeah. Just like, oh, we're going to Benadorm and we're just going to go to a museum. Play bingo. And her friends actually told investigators that Natalie was, in fact, going the hardest of them all on that particular holiday. According to them on a couple of days, Natalie had started drinking at breakfast and had carried straight on through into the night. That is a stamina. I mean, that's an 18-year-old right there. Yeah, yeah. The elasticity of youth. And it's also suspected that the group of teens who were in Aruba had been dabbling with drugs during their trip. We don't have Natalie had been, but it definitely seems to have been a part of the vibe, shall we say? Yes. Now, none of this is of course us blaming Natalie for her disappearance. My god, if you'd seen me on that trip to Prague, you would know that I am not passing any sort of judgment. But we do have to point out both the disparity between what Natalie's mum believed and the reality of the situation. It's also important because it tells us the state that Natalie had been in when Vandus Loot and the Kalpo brothers had taken her for that drive. After urine had given his statement to the police, it didn't do much to lift the suspicion from him because CCTV footage showed no sign of Natalie ever having returned to the hotel that night. It also showed no sign of a security guard like the one Lauren had described. It's important to say, though, that multiple sources do state that security cameras outside the hotel were possibly not even working that night. However, whether they were on or not isn't really that important because, as you'll see, very quickly, Lauren's definitely lying. But for now, let's stick with the search and rescue efforts, which were by this point in full swing. The general feeling was, with the Rueber only being eight miles long, how hard could it possibly be to find somebody? It is only eight miles long, but it's also surrounded by an ocean. Yeah, with only Bradley in it. Yeah, tragically. And so quickly, the rescue teams realised that it actually turns out it's incredibly hard to find somebody even on an eight-mile long island. And on the first of June, hundreds of Aruban and American volunteers helped scour the island fanatily. The Aruban government even gave thousands of their civil servants the day off to help. 50 Dutch Marines combed the island shorelines for any sign of a body. And the Aruban banks donated $20,000 to assist with the search effort. Three Dutch F-16 fighter planes, rigged with infrared cameras, failed to pick up any sign of a body around the coastline. It was starting to look very not good. Based on Lauren and the CalPo Brothers initial story, police detained two former security guards from a nearby hotel. These men did have a reputation for cruising the tourist spots of Aruba, hoping to pick up women, and one of them even had a criminal record. But they were released eight days later when authorities couldn't uncover any evidence that linked them to Natalie's disappearance at all. On the 5th of June, so now 10 days after Natalie's disappearance, Lauren and the CalPo Brothers were brought in for questioning once again. This time, however, their stories changed. One of the CalPo Brothers now admitted, quote, "Something bad happened at the beach with Natalie." After this, Lauren's version of events changed almost every single day. Remember, to begin with, Lauren denied even knowing Natalie's name. And then he said he had taken her to the beach and dropped her back at her hotel. And now he's saying that he actually left her at the beach, and then he went home, and then he said that he'd actually gone home himself and left Natalie with the CalPo Brothers, so he just is flip flopping all over the place. Over the following days, Lauren and the CalPo, Lauren, Lauren and the CalPo Brothers turned on one another. I said the CalPo Brothers and Vandeslute are no longer best buddies. They turn on each other, and the brothers insisted that they left Natalie with Vandeslute, and Vandeslute says that he left her with the brothers, so obviously somebody is lying. Maybe even both, but the police think it was, privilege pants, Vandeslute. So the CalPo Brothers were released, and Vandeslute was held for two more months. In this time, a number of witnesses came forward, some claimed to have seen Vandeslute and the CalPo Brothers near a pond, and they said that they covered their faces when people drove past. So just them standing by upon that night, and every time someone drove past, just cover their faces. Excellent. It's like, I know this probably isn't true, but you know that thing where polar bears when they hunt, they just cover their nose with their hunt. It is really cute, and I want it to be true. I want it to be true. I hope it is. I hope it is. Let's just pretend it is. No one tell us otherwise. I don't want to know in the trying to see what I want to hear from you. Only about polar bears. Right. So they're covering their faces like a mythical polar bear, and another witness claimed that they saw all three of them burying a blonde-haired woman in a local landfill. Well, that's pretty damning. It is quite damning, but one does have to wonder why it took them this long to come forward. Well, I think I would like to think I would call the police immediate if I saw someone burying a woman. But the police had already searched the landfill, and they had found nothing. After this witness statement, they did go back a second time with kid avidogs, but once again, nothing. Authorities even drained upon to opposite a maria hotel where the witnesses had claimed to see Vandesleut and the Calpe brothers. But again, there was nothing there. And maybe this is possibly a reason as to why suddenly, ten days after Natalie goes missing, you have a bunch of people now coming forward giving witness statements that are very, very, as we've said, damning. Because the people of Aruba were very desperate to wrap up this case. Every day that passed, it was gaining more and more media attention. I mean, come on. Natalie Holloway as well. She's 18 years old. She's blonde. She's very pretty. She is also from a well-to-do family. She's kind of your archetypical, perfect victim. And so, of course, the media absolutely ate it up. And by this point, it had pretty much become America's favourite reality TV show. It was almost tuning in every single night just to get the news updates. It was also starting to affect tourism in Aruba in a big way. So given all of this, it kind of makes sense that some people might come forward, even with false statements hoping that the police might just charge the three men and put an end to all of the madness. But still believing that Natalie had been kidnapped and was still alive two months after her disappearance. Her family increased the reward for Natalie's safe return from $175,000 to one whole million smackers, and they also said they would give $100,000 for information leading to the discovery of her remains if she was dead. And that reward for the discovery of her remains was later increased to a quarter of a million. On the 3rd of September, Vandeslut was released on the condition that he remained available to the police when needed. And in an incredibly bizarre move, Vandeslut agreed to appear on Fox News of all places in March of 2006 to give what he said was his side of the story. In this lengthy, the three-part interview that aired over three days, because again, remember, you've got a milk kit. You've got a milk kit to get the views in over the three days. And it's not like Fox News has actual news to report, just make it up. None of that. And so during these three interviews, your and Vandeslut claimed that Natalie had become insatiable the second they had arrived at the beach and that she had begged him to have sex with her. But he, being the stand-up guy that he is, had refused because he didn't have a condom. Also, he claims because he needed to get an early night because he had class the following morning. Do me a fucking favor. He's seen leaving the bar at 1 a.m. And you're like, "No, I really, I really, really set a very clear deadline in my head at the time I needed to go home." So no, Natalie, Holloway, girl, I've been flirting with all day and I'm not finally managed to get to the beach. No, I know your sex crazed, but I haven't got time to have sex with you. Exactly, I know I'm irresistible but I really am very busy. Vandeslut went on to say that he left Natalie at the beach after she refused to leave and that was all he knew. And phone records showed that your and Vandeslut had actually called one of the calpoh brothers at 2.30 a.m. So he's not quite in bed for his class the next day. And the calpoh brothers claim that your and had phoned them to say that he'd left Natalie at the beach. So at this point, it's a bit confusing because they all keep changing their stories but at this point, they seem to be saying that they left Natalie there and then had a phone call about it. I don't know. It's very, it's very hard to keep track of their stories because they change so constantly, yeah. But what we do know is a text message was sent from your and Vandeslut's phone to the calpoh brothers saying that he'd arrived at their house and that was sent at around the same time. In the calpoh brothers version of events, they claimed to have dropped Natalie and you're an off at the beach and gone straight home after which they had no idea what happened to Natalie. And apparently they told their mother that the only reason they had lied initially was in order to cover for Vandeslut because he'd asked them to. Investigators were at a complete loss and because they had waited for weeks before reviewing security footage from the beach, the videos had all been erased very conveniently. And they had no way to confirm or deny your own story. With a Reuben Police getting nowhere in the investigation and with a Reuben being part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, a team of Dutch detectives took over the case. They began searching the family homes of the calpoh brothers and Vandeslut but found nothing. It's incredible that the Reuben Police hadn't done that already. Six months later, all three were re-arrested due to new evidence being found. But what this evidence actually is, nobody knows it's never been revealed but it couldn't have been very good. I mean, good as in good evidence, solid evidence because all three of them were released very shortly afterwards. By this point, this case had completely taken over America. I think it's even more so maybe than like what we're seeing now with the Gabby Potato case because then it was like not just on the internet, it was like on prime time news. And remember back then, you would get together as a family who'd like watch the news every night. It's just completely salacious, you know, and of course everyone was eating it up. You've really got to think about why. I know we've briefly talked about it when we have spoken about the Gabby Potato case. But this case had everything, a pretty missing white girl, suspected to have been murdered, a hateable white male suspect in the form of Vandeslut, hopeless police work. And all of it set on the backdrop of an island paradise. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's a reason why everyone knows that Amy Bradley's name, you know, it's exotic. It's scary. It's every parent's worst nightmare. When when people just evaporate into thin air, there is something quite like, romantic's the wrong word, but there's something about it that's quite mystical. Yeah, it's something you can't let go of because there's no closure to it. There's no, there's no solution. It's like anything. I mean, again, this is such a like glib comparison. But if you misplay something, the time it will occupy in your brain of just you spending hours thinking about where the fuck did I put it. At least if I know, like we were in the premiere and I accidentally dropped one of my earrings in the toilet. And I was like, do I leave it? And Hannah knows how germ phobia I am. Yeah, very germ, over here. I got it. out. I'm very proud of you, well done. I mean, and then I stood in the shower and scolded my arm for about 20 minutes. F*ck it out. I actually still feel a bit sick thinking about the sh*t. We'll have to chop it off. Please, you should cut it off. I mean, have you seen, there's an amazing TikTok. It's like, they're singing here, but I'm not going to sing here, but it's like, my sock is wet and I've got to throw my whole fur away. That's one of, that is what needs to happen. My hand was wet with toilet water. Let's move on before I'm sick. So, absolutely. Back in America, CNN, MSNBC and Fox News devoted hours just speculating about the details of this case, because this is the problem. They're kind of all chomping at the bit for new information to report on every night, but there just isn't any. So I can just imagine them having talking heads who sit around and expect, I mean, I know I'm saying this as we're doing this, so, but you know, when I'm on MSNBC, just speculating about the case, even though there's absolutely no breakthrough. And, you know, fair enough, they did it with good reason, because viewing figures rose dramatically when Natalie Holloway was the topic of conversation. And to his credit, CNN's Anderson Cooper actually chastised his own network for their overblown coverage of Natalie's case. It's very easy to say that. Yeah. They're not going to sack you. They're not going to sack you, Anderson Cooper. No. It's all, it's all very easy to talk about retrospectively, but where were you at the time, Anderson? Even if he said it at the time, I'm like, well, I feel like this is my take on American news channels, because they all have anchors. They all have like different like, you know, lead hosts or whatever. And they have their own show and everything. And I spend a lot of time in America, so you know, I used to watch like the lead with Jake Tapper or Rachel Maddo's. And I was just like, oh my god, this is mind numbing stuff. But they all kind of have little quote unquote invites, but I can't help but feel like they're kind of orchestrated like a reality show. Like what's that guy, Cuomo, the New York guy, but his brother is a CNN anchor, Chris Cuomo, and him and like Don Lemon have these, who's another host, they have all these weird little like spats and sometimes they'll appear on each other's show. And I'm like, this is so fucking messy. Stop like WWE. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. Like a weird little rivalry or a weird little spats. So I feel like you coming out and standing up against your own network is nothing because sometimes they just do that. Like they used to be a guy on Fox News, who has actually left now. And he would say bad things about Fox. And I was like, it's just fucking pantomime. That's what it feels like. The American news I haven't spent that much time, but American weather girls, the American weather report is porn. And I don't care what anyone says. In this country, to be a weather person, you have to have at least one degree in meteorology, you have to be a scientist. In America, you just have to have boobs apparently. Every time I watch, I'm like, this cannot be real. It's like a caricature. That's how I feel a lot of time watching American news and slash weather. Yeah, the American weather, it's just the forecast is boobs. Like that's just it. Well, I can't wait to be looking at it for weeks on end when we go there next year. Yeah, we'll have content for days. Maybe I'll just become a weather girl. You have got the boobs. I do have the boobs. And none of the meteorological knowledge. Perfect. You're hired. Right, back to whatever we were talking about. The criticism that Addison Cuban hailed down upon his own network. He wasn't the only one who was pretty unhappy. Criticism of the inflated coverage of the case came from all sides. Those people talking about how it had shadowed the coverage of missing black and Latino people and men even and the poor not to mention the coverage of the Iraq war. We see it all the time. It's Maddie McCown syndrome. And there is actually an interesting, I know we talk about Dr Grande from YouTube all the time on the show, but get over it. He's great. And he actually does a whole mini episode on his YouTube channel called Missing White Woman Syndrome, where he digs into the research into it to see if empirically it's a real thing. Imperically actually it turns out it's not in terms of just statistically looking at the way the media reports things, but he does conclude that socially and culturally it is. It's confusing. Go watch it. I'll leave a link below. If I remember to do so, if I don't, guys can just google it instead of reminding me that I haven't. And it is worth a watch. But when exactly did Missing White Woman become a genre of news in itself? Some people argue that it was in '96 with JonBenay Ramsey. Others argue that it was a few years later with the gruesome triple homicide of Carol Sund her daughter and her family friend in the 70 National Park in 1999. I know this isn't a missing person, but I would say it's the central park five. I mean, this is the thing. I would say it's way before JonBenay. I mean, of course, we've had newspapers for, you know, fucking centuries, but I think the advent of rolling news is probably where this took a ton. I agree. I agree. That's a good point. So yeah, hard to pinpoint a case, but I think that's probably it. But whichever case was the spark that lit the fire, cable producers now knew that the Missing White Woman genre was TV gold. And just like OJ Simpson had proven, so was the celebrity murder genre. Apparently, OJ Simpson, like the chase when he's in like the white Bronco driving away, it was the most pizzas ever ordered were ordered during that chase. I, I, I doesn't surprise him. Yeah. And I think until the Ted Bundy trial was televised, no, I think after the Ted Bundy trial, because I think it was the first trial that was ever televised in the US, OJ Simpson racked up the highest viewing figures. That's why you know how the, fucking what is it? Court TV. Yeah, exactly. So you can come for us for being true crime efficient artists all you want, but don't pretend you're not involved too. No. We're lady at the show last night who was like, I'm really uncomfortable being here. That's as she tweeted at us last night, though, and she was like, thank you for reminding me that actually I'm empathetic and curious and not a weirdo for liking true crime. Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, no one looks down there, knows that boys who are obsessed with war documentaries, like true crime is just a space where women aren't at all that we're not doing it wrong. Anyway, yes, getting back to the TV genre and the TV hype and general hype around this case, in December of 2010, Time magazine even ranked Natalie Holloway's case as the most notable criminal event of the year, which I'm sorry. Yeah, because there were a lot of others. I feel like the Iraq War maybe trumps it. Yeah, I mean, anybody want to talk about the fucking war crimes committed? No, that is not the most notable criminal event. That is not the most notable criminal event of 2010, Hannah, because Natalie Holloway's case even beat the Belgian love triangle skydiving murder case. I think I remember that one. That's the one. It's like the fucking army man, right? I have absolutely no idea. I think that's the one. And it also trumped the Chinese school shootings and surprisingly another for some time missing white girl, the Elizabeth smart kidnapping trial. Natalie beat them all for the top spot. Remind me Elizabeth smart. Oh, Elizabeth smart was oh my god, it's such a weird story. She's like young white blonde girl in her bed asleep one night in the same room as her sister. So some man comes into the room and kidnaps her and then holds her captive and she's allowed to go out at times, but she has like a veil on her face and stuff like this. And then she eventually does come back home. I can't remember how she's rescued actually, but yeah, that's that case. But yeah, Natalie, Natalie Holloway's case beat all of those as most notable criminal event of 2010. I didn't even know Time Magazine were keeping track of that. No, I didn't either actually. No, I don't actually, I don't think I've ever opened a copy of Time Magazine. I just see who's on the cover. But the reason that everyone knows Natalie Holloway's name and the reason she's trumping all of the crimes for the top spot is down to, it's down to her mom. Bethwitty was tirelessly campaigning for years to get to the bottom of her daughter's disappearance. And Beth became a staple on television with countless appearances telling the viewers that the Arabian police were not only incompetent, but also corrupt, which in the Caribbean does not surprise me. No, I would also say here we can add another interesting facet into this story mix because very much like the Madeline McCann case, Bethwitty is a hotty. And there's nothing the media love more than a grieving hot mum. Yes, yeah, yeah. And I don't mean to sound glib. I'm not saying that's okay. I'm just saying that's the reason. Oh, it's box office. It'll sell, it'll sell you some papers. Sell you some ad space on Fox News. So her making multiple TV appearances led to an appearance on everyone's favourite, bigger than Beyonce, Dr. Phil. In this particular moment in the spotlight, ended with Dr. Phil calling for the people of America to boycott a ruber as a holiday destination until the Arabian authorities did in his eyes what he believed to be their utmost to solve the case. I mean, I know people are always like, oh, like only Judy can judge me. I don't think Dr. Phil can hold anyone to account for anything. No, the man isn't a doctor. I know we've been confused about it on this show before he's not a doctor. So I actually love how Dr. Grande, who again, YouTube of YouTube fame, doesn't call it the Dr. Phil show. He calls it the film McGraw Show. And this is obviously a bit irresponsible of film McGraw to say, I would say, because a large percentage of Aruba's GDP comes from their booming tourist industry. And this call for an international boycott had everyone on the tiny island nation absolutely terrified. But thankfully, the US federal government decided not to back the boycott. And somehow, Aruba's tourism actually saw a 9% increase in 2005 from the previous year. I guarantee that those 9% are filled with people who'd never heard of Aruba before. And I just heard it on the news. We're like, oh, that sounds nice. Yeah, and then they're just in endless shots of beaches, where they're like, and this was where Natalie Holloway was last Yeah, they're just filtering out that bit. It's white-noising that. I'm sure Ariba is very beautiful. I have a lot for Caribbean, it's very beautiful. I've not been to, well, I went to Belize. Yeah, Belize Counts. That's it. Belize is that vibe is. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I very much had that vibe for a long time. I was lucky enough to go to Kia Kouka, one of the islands off there with our friend Dami, who's the one who introduced us, and it was hysterical. My favorite thing was, would like walk down the road and all the men who would like sit on the side, just like hanging out, would speak to Dami the first day we arrived, and then they just called him, "Ae Landan, every time we walked past." And they'd be like, "Why are you walking so quickly? It was so funny. I had a great time." Landan slowed down. But enough of a rooper, let's get back to privileged pants. In 2007, urine vandouslyed actually released a book in Dutch called The Case of Natalie Holloway. Oh God, shut up, shut up. In which he gives what he claims to be his full sign of the story, maintaining that he had absolutely no clue where she was or what had happened to her. Well, he's got so many fucking versions of that night, he can fill a book. Yeah. Fucking hell. And he goes on to change his mind again, because in 2008, so just a year after he publishes his book, so he has absolutely no idea what's going on. He pulls his most bizarre move yet. He went back on cable television and admitted to a disposing of Natalie Holloway's body. And this time, it wasn't a three-part Fox News interview either, because vandouslyed by this point was living in the Netherlands, and he was in a car one day, which he had no idea had been secretly fitted with security cameras by a reporter. High as a kite and sat next to who he thought was just a Dutch businessman, vandously began telling the man all about the case of Natalie Holloway. And what happened that night? He claimed that Natalie had actually had a seizure on the beach, and once she had become unresponsive, he had decided to put her body on a boat and dump it at sea. And he also said that his father, who remember his Paulus vandouslyute, who was also a local judge, had actually helped him get rid of Natalie's body, and advised him to go to school the following day and act normal. Apparently, lawyer and soon-to-be-judge Daddy Paulus had even told his son to get back to the casino to make sure he was spotted by the cameras. The police had actually been suspicious of Daddy vandouslyute throughout the investigation, but they never managed to find any solid evidence to connect him to the crime. This taxi cab confession footage was aired as a part of a documentary made by a Dutch journalist, but you're simply said he was lying and just saying what he thought the man wanted to hear. Why would you think that a Dutch businessman you were hoping to do business with would be like, what's he saying to you that makes you think that's what he wanted to hear? Was he like, I'll go on, go on, admit that you killed Natalie Holloway. That's really what I want to hear. And he's like, I'll go right there. You want to do something to do with Natalie Holloway? My favourite idea is that this Dutch journalist is do you remember that the Sunday time shake or not Sunday time? Oh, that's exactly what I was going to say. The sunshake. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whoever it was. The fake shake. The fake shake. Yeah, if you guys aren't from the UK and you don't know what we're talking about, basically, I can't remember which newspaper he was affiliated with. I think it was The Mirror. The Mirror. Let's go with The Mirror. We can say whatever we want on this true crime podcast. Let's say he's a freelance journalist and he was getting these stories and then selling them to newspapers. I actually think it might have been the news of the world. Do you know what? The fucking news of the world doesn't exist anymore. It probably wasn't news of the world. He would dress up. This journalist would dress up like a shake and then go and talk to all of these incredibly famous people. Yeah, he was like coming to drugs with me in a hotel room and these rich famous people are like, yes, we do that all the time. And then they just spill their deepest darkest secrets to him. I mean, he got like members of the royal family. He got Fergie, didn't he? Yeah, but everyone's got Fergie. Yeah. And then he got, they got someone else from the royals. Oh, yeah, he's been about. Yeah, I've forgotten who it is. But yeah, he's basically like Borat, but a journalist. Yeah, that's actually a very, very good description. I just would love to watch this and it just turn around and it's just this guy dressed as a shake. That next to you all can find a salute. You're in vandously. So just a few months after this documentary aired, you're and went back on old favorite fox news for yet another interview about the case. And if you thought it couldn't get any more bizarre, you are incorrect in turn because you're and has even more versions of events up his sleeve. Because this time, you're inclaimed that he had actually sold Natalie Holloway to a sex trafficking ring. Why not? Why the fuck not? I mean, every bed does have the reputation for it. It's the last chapter of his book. He even went on to say that his father, Paula's Founder's Loot, had bribed to a Rubin policeman to keep quiet after they had learned that Natalie had been taken to Venezuela. When asked what happened, you're and said, quote, I stepped out of the car. She was with me. I went to the beach with her. We were making out. We never did anything else. At first, I didn't see anybody else there. And I thought, whatever, it's not going to happen. Then suddenly, I saw a guy. And he came and he handed me a bag, grabbed the girl by the arm and took her to the boat that he had in the water. He said that Natalie never even struggled or tried to escape. Instead, she just kept asking him, meaning urine, why he wasn't coming with them. As urine had apparently told her that they were going to the beach to get on a boat. So he's basically saying that Natalie Holloway is so drunk that she doesn't realize she's being kidnapped because she thinks she's going on a boat ride. Indeed. The bag that urine claims to have been handed was full of cash. But as he had done numerous times before, shortly after this weird interview, Ed, urine came out and said that he'd been lying and none of it was true. Why do people keep getting him beyond telly? Because they'd just like put him on. He says, fucking crazy shit. And then their ratings go through the roof. We're Fox News. We don't care about truth. Clearly, nothing that comes out of urine's mouth could be trusted or taken seriously even. And it's also clear that he loves attention, even if he does come across as the villain. And just when you thought he couldn't get anywhere. In March 2010, five years since Natalie's disappearance, urine van der Sloot sent an email to Natalie's parents lawyer offering to reveal the exact location of their daughter's body and specific details about how she died in exchange for $250,000. Obviously, you guys know, we would never go around diagnosing people. We don't have the business to be doing that. But I did think it's fair to say that urine van der Sloot is not not a psychopath. If there is anywhere that grows people like urine van der Sloot, it is international schools in a rhubus. Yeah, fight me. It's true. Like I have been around a lot of people who have gone to international schools from various life situations. A lot of them end up at service. And there are three categories of international school student. There are the ones that are okay. There are the ones that are incredibly obnoxious and they go on to be politicians, baristas, etc. And then there are the trust affairs who have so much money but dress like they're completely homeless. They love telling other people how to live their lives under the guise of being a shaman. A shaman? Oh yeah, yeah. I've met many a shaman. A shaman. Yep. That's my most hated form of international student is people who are incredibly incredibly privileged but have no sense of the fact that nothing bad has ever happened to them. So therefore they can't really empathise with people. So yeah, psychopath or not psychopath, international student in one of those tiers. Jorgen van der Sloot calls Natalie's parents and tells them this, that he'll tell them where her body is in exchange for the quarter of a million. Natalie's parents actually inform the FBI by email straight away but they wired you're in 15,000 dollars. I wish that they had waited for the FBI to say something. Yeah, it's kind of like when Lucy Blackman's dad accepted the money from Yejiobara's family or legal team or whatever because he was like what makes no difference but it's quite culturally significant in Japan to accept money or kind of say no harm, no foul. And yeah, I wish they'd waited too. Yeah, because they're giving this money to him and I wish that they had waited for some form of confirmation about anything. I mean he goes on to give them an address telling them that Natalie's remains were inside the house. The only problem was that this house had been built after Natalie's disappearance. So obviously her remains couldn't be inside the house. The FBI indicted van der Sloot for extortion and wire fraud following this but not before he had managed to flee to Peru with the 15,000 dollars that he had conned from the Twitties. And interestingly, he hadn't just run off to Peru to hide from the FBI. Oh no, apparently your van der Sloot was in Peru to take part in a poker tournament. Kill me, I would like to die please. A month later the badly beaten and decomposing body of 21 year old student Stephanie Flores Ramirez was discovered in a hotel room under urine's name in Lima, Peru. The body had been there for a while before being discovered because urine had instructed hotel staff not to enter the room. He was arrested in Chile and extradited back to Peru. urine gave Lima police a full confession saying that he lost his temper with Stephanie after she'd gone on his laptop without his permission and had found some information linking him to Natalie Holloway's murder. Two years later in 2012 urine pleaded guilty to the murder of Stephanie Ramirez and was sentenced to 28 years in prison which I really hope he has to do in Peru. No, yeah, I think he does. So during his guilty plea, urine said quote, "I wanted from the first moment to confess sincerely. I truly am sorry for this act. I feel very bad." The defense blamed his actions on the quote "extreme psychological trauma" that he had suffered from the long running Holloway saga. The prosecutors were convinced that he had killed Stephanie to rob her of her winnings from a casino. Hotel staff had seen both of them, so that's Stephanie and Vandeslut, entering the room together and said that urine never returned the key and had left the TV running. Police found CCTV footage of the two playing poker together at the Atlantic City Casino in Lima. urine had entered Peru via Colombia to play in the Latin American poker tour. Stephanie's father, a prominent businessman in Peru, said that date rate drugs were found in her car and that her credit cards, jewelry, ID, and over $10,000 in poker winnings were missing from her vehicle. An autopsy found that Stephanie had not had sexual intercourse before her death. It was also found that she'd suffered from a blunt force trauma to the head, which resulted in a brain hemorrhage, cranial fractures, and a broken neck. Her face also showed significant injuries and signs of asphyxiation. The suspected murder weapon was a tennis racket found in the hotel room. That same month in January 2012, now seven years after Natalie's disappearance, an Alabama judge officially declared Natalie to be dead. But what truly happened to her will likely never be known. Going back to the far-fetched story that urine vandously told on his second Fox News interview where he claimed to have sold Natalie into sexual slavery, well, something happened in 2008 that makes this version of events seem slightly more plausible. urine vandously worked for a tight sex trafficking ring in Bangkok for a short while before being caught on hidden camera once again. He was operating under the alias Murphy Jenkins, fake fake name McGee, and yeah, he was posing as a production manager for a modeling agent, which is a big fucking sex offender red flag writer. Yeah, do model agencies need production managers? I don't know, I don't know. So here's the latest edition of vandously makes it up, apparently he would tell Thai women that he could get the modeling jobs in Europe, but would actually sell them into sexual slavery in the Netherlands for $13,000 or woman. The footage was aired by the same reporter who'd secretly filmed him in the car in the Netherlands, where he admitted to having dispose of Natalie's body. And as for urine's father, Paulus vandously, well, the calpo brothers claimed that he had been aware of urine's involvement in Natalie's disappearance from the very start, and he advised urine that if the police didn't have a body, then they wouldn't have a case. In 2005, Paulus was detained by the police for questioning about Natalie's disappearance, but he was released just three days later of an attempt to seek damages for this, but he was unsuccessful. But interestingly, Beth Twitty, that's Natalie's mum, told reporters that Paulus vandously had actually contacted her privately shortly after Natalie's disappearance, saying that he was unable to control his son and had tried his best to get him psychiatric help in the past. I mean, fuck an hour. If that's true, that is mind blowing. In 2019, Paulus vandously actually went bankrupt from fighting this case, and died from a hard attack, whilst playing tennis in a rubber. urine vandously's mother, Anita, says that Paulus's death had a huge impact on urine, and that he blamed himself for it. He left a rubber before she was able to get him involuntarily committed, and he apparently left his mum a note, which just read, "I'm gone now. Don't worry." As for what really happened to Natalie Holloway, I think it's most likely that your vandously did murder her that night, whether the calpoh brothers were involved is another question altogether. But the fact that he confessed to the murder of Stephanie Ramirez, and given his involvement with Thai sex trafficking gangs, he seems a little bit more capable of having killed Natalie, and I think the state of Stephanie's body just shows that he's just a red-missed kind of guy. So do I think he murdered her, yeah, probably, and when extremely privileged people aren't given what they want, they don't like it. But what happened to Natalie? Where is her body? We'll probably never know, but it does seem a little bit strange that if you just left her on the beach or dumped her body in the water, so close to land that she wouldn't have shown up somewhat. This is the thing, like, he must have also been in the state, like they'd been drinking for a long time, and that all of the witnesses say that he was also very drunk. Like how far out would you have to take a body to see in order to dump it for it to not resurface on shore, like surely miles? And I find it hard to believe that on island that's more. If he had gone out in like a little fucking wooden rowboat that he would have been able to get the body far enough away, but that if he had taken it out on like a mechanized boat, that people wouldn't have heard it. Yeah, very true. I mean, we got a lot of flack in the human Bradley episode, all of those moons ago for saying that bodies dumped to see always wash up. It's kind of true. Amy Bradley cases like it. She was three miles from shore, so if she had drowned, it's pretty likely that she would have shown up. Same with Natalie, so I don't believe she's in the water. No, I just think the boat, like if you were on a boat, it's a bit more understandable. Like if you're on a cruise liner, like Amy was, but this is, I just can't believe that he in that condition would have been able to get Natalie's body far enough away that it wouldn't have washed back up onto the island. Yeah, I agree. I'm not saying it's an impossibility, it just seems a bit unlikely. So then I guess like the sex trafficking angle comes into it. Did he need to just get Natalie to the beach in order for a pick up to have him? Did he spot her in amongst that group of all of those students that had come? He picks her out, easy prey. She looks exactly like what he needs. He grooms her, they hang out. Then he just takes her to the beach and takes his money. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if he knows me at all, doesn't appear to have any morals whatsoever. So where is Yoran Van der Sloot now? Well, he's serving his 28-year sentence for murdering Stephanie Ramirez in Chalapatch a prison in Peru, after which he could be extradited to the U.S. to be tried for the wire fraud and extortion of Natalie's family. And if Beth twisty Natalie's mom got anything to do with it, you can bet your fucking ass that he will be back. In July 2014, Yoran Van der Sloot actually married a Peruvian woman, named Lady Faggot. And she was a hero, whom he had met while she was working in the prison, selling goods. I don't really know what that means. It kind of sounds like she was selling something in the court. Yeah, I think the prisons in Latin America, depending on the country, obviously I'm not tiring everyone with the same bluish, but people do live with their wives in prison. Interesting. Actually, I really want to do, there's that really famous prison in La Paz. I really want to do an episode. There's an amazing book called Marching Powder about a British guy who basically lived his life in there, and they're just manufactured cocaine. And like everyone pays rent to live there, people's wives are allowed to come and go. There are kids. I've seen the documentaries, so I'll put it on the list. Lady and Van der Sloot get married, and on the 28th of September 2014, Lady actually gave birth to their first child. And it seems, as far as I can tell from Google, that the pair are still together. Now, there hasn't been much movement on the case of Natalie Holloway in recent years, but there are still articles, news reports, and documentaries released about the case on an almost yearly basis. There was even a made for TV movie shot about this case called Natalie Holloway. And it's just so grim, like if you google it and take a look at the front cover, or like the cover art for it. It's just like a blonde girl smiling, and it just says Natalie Holloway, and I'm like, okay, you could have changed the name. But then I guess that's the whole brand, why would you? That's what's going to pull in the views. Although there hasn't been any clear updates, there was a bit of a weird little twist that's worth maybe mentioning. Because in 2017, a man named John Ludwig actually claimed in one of these many, many documentaries that had turned out about this case, that he had, in fact, killed Natalie along with your and Van der Sloot. Ludwig states in this documentary made by Oxygen that he and your own had crushed Natalie's bones until they were no longer recognisable as human remains, that is impossible. You are not God. And he also said to get rid of her hair fibers, they burn her skull, dousing it in gasoline, quote, "In a fire pit in a cave." No, you didn't. Unless you have a nuclear reactor, it is impossible to completely dispose of a human body with just a fire. So it's no surprise that these claims couldn't be verified, and if he was really involved it will never know because in 2018 Ludwig was stabbed to death in Florida by a woman he was trying to abduct. Question. So when you get your body cremated then, do they smash it up, does the fire not just incinerate everything? It's a really hot fire. Yeah, you can't start a fire in a fire pit, I suppose it was a body. No, definitely not. And I think that's like a lot of pressure and stuff. Oh, actually, actually, I think any funeral directors in the house hollow, but I think that some bits will not completely disintegrate and they are taken out, they're not giving them out. Interesting. So I think, I think, because like teeth. Yeah, I don't know, because obviously my family or Hindu, we cremate and yeah, because they don't even do it in crematoriums, they do it out in the open, like on a fire. So I don't know actually what's left and how much of it is done, but I'm guessing it's hotter than a pit fire. Yeah, I mean, it didn't touch me. We're completely wrong, but I have a feeling that it's impossible. And oxygen will not quit because they made this documentary six hole parts and they even paid for Ludwig to go back to Aruba and find the remains that he claimed were Natalie's, but when they tested the remains, surprise, surprise, it turned out to be not Natalie Holloway. We don't know what they did find because they're just like, they found the remains in this cave, tested and it's not on match for the mitochondrial DNA sample that they got from Beth Twitter, and they're just like, nowhere I saw mentions if it was human remains or did they investigate whose remains they were, they're just like, it's not Natalie, whatever, fuck it, chuck it back in the pit back in the pit, you go, also we don't know because we can't watch the documentary in the UK. because oxygen aren't very nice to us but it's awful for leaving the EU. Beth, Twitty, Natalie's mum is suing a hell out of oxygen for the show and 16 years later she continues to search for her daughter. She fronts quite a lot of true crime documentaries, does Beth? And did she go out with John Barry Ramsey? She did. When we were doing the research for this I actually was like looking into it and yes she's been doing a lot of advocacy work and campaigning on behalf of the Petito family. It feels like a natural fit for her and sorry the amount she's suing oxygen for, can you guess how much is it? Is it more or less than Dr Phil as well? I mean it's less, everything is less than the amount Dr Phil as well. Okay, £100 million. £35 million, wow. Yeah, I mean it's very enough because she was like they're just making this documentary to get ratings up and she says she claims, Beth Twitty claims that they knew that those remains were not Natalie's and they put her through the trauma of making her give DNA samples and everything and going out there and doing this whole fucking pantomime and I'm like she's probably right, fucking to them, whatever. So no, I did find out also during the research for this case that yes, Beth Twitty and George Twitty sadly they get divorced after this and for a brief while she dated none other the Mr. George, John Bene Ramsey of John Bene Ramsey fame. Oh yeah, I mean make of that what you will really. I mean, grief power couple. Yeah, no, it's I guess like you've both been through a horrible trauma get together. No, they both downplay the relationship but it does seem that it was romantic in nature. Interesting. Interesting. So that is it guys, that is the case of Natalie Holloway much requested actually from all of you. Anyone got any theories? I think I think most likely sex trafficking. That is my theory also. It's also what I think happened to Amy Bradley, that would be my guess but you know we we are idiots and our thoughts don't matter. I mean that is also true but I think you know if you're like well why would anybody bother going through the effort of kidnapping an American student when you're going to attract so much attention because Natalie Holloway as a specimen quote unquote to these people is going to fetch the big bugs. Oh yeah, big time big time. It's worth taking the risk for them and I can absolutely see that you're and vandously it was the kind of guy who's on this island who just you know sends a message to his contacts being like are you fucking serious? There's 120 American students here from Alabama and like 50% of them are women and 50% of those are blonde. Get your ass over here. Yeah, I feel like given how small the island is and the fact that her body never turned up I feel like that makes the most sense. I agree. So that's it guys. 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