Episode 222: Menno Henselmans- Injury Management Techniques, Maintaining Muscle, Downsides of Always Cutting, and more.

Welcome to the Mind Muscle Connection, the podcast for high-performing professionals who want to build muscle, lose fat and optimize their health and metabolism with a science-backed no BS approach. I'm Jeff Haine, an online fitness and nutrition coach and educator who's helped hundreds of men and women over 30 transform their bodies while still enjoying life outside the gym. Here, we cut through the noise with science-back strategies on training, nutrition, health and lifestyle so you can look great, feel strong, and perform at your best, both in and out of the gym. New episodes drop every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, so be sure to subscribe and stay up to date. If you're ready for a smarter, no BS approach to fitness, you're in the right place. Grab some coffee and enjoy. Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Mind Muscle Connection podcast. Today I have a very special guest, Mino Henselman, he's back on, I believe this is the fourth time, either way it's the third or the fourth time, but like I just mentioned off-air, always great episodes, so look at four or two diving into a ton of great topics again today. Let's do it. First, I always have to do whenever you come on. I got to ask where in the world is Mino at, and so I want to hear the update there with that. And Madrid, I'll probably be here the coming months, not permanently, but I'll probably spend quite some time here until June or so, and then it's uncertain because my girlfriend's gonna finish her oral surgeon's specialty next year, and it's not sure yet where. Cool. So just again, just in Spain, so I get, Madrid's in Spain, right? Yeah, it was there. Okay, that's what I thought. From there, you're just not really sure where you're gonna go moving forward, which I'm sure is probably pretty cool, they just not really know exactly where you're going to be. Yeah, that's what I'm used to. In fact, staying in Spain for multiple months consecutively is more the novelty for me. I think it's been eight years, maybe more since I've been in one place, more than three months or so. Now, one time I wasn't Brazil for about half year, but other than that, it's pretty much more like one to two months is probably the average. Yeah. So, that's really cool. I just find that that's super interesting. I guess my question to you then is, what's the weather like at this time of years? Is it pretty nice in Spain during this year or is it getting pretty chilly? So the crap. It's supposed to be nice, but it's still a crap. I think, I don't know why, but it seems all of Europe has kind of the same climate. This, at least this year, and yeah, it's horrible today and the last week and the coming week are all horrible. I think we kind of touched on this last time, but just for a refresher, do you try to choose places that are a little bit warmer, or is it just again just kind of. Yeah, probably. Yeah, okay. I'm with you. I live in the Midwest and the United States and may not tell you what in the winter, it gets pretty chilly here and it gets tough to get outside. And it's definitely, you notice the difference, you know, not being able to have that nice warmer weather. I was actually listening to Stronger by Science podcast, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this. And to talk about how his humans were, probably a little bit better adapted to warmer weather than we are to colder weather. There's a bit of a generally difference for sure in between people of different nationalities because if I sit on a plane with Brazilians, for example, now I'm a very warm individual, like I'm especially after workout and a shower, it's sometimes so extreme that in the winter and in the Netherlands, I would bicycle in my t-shirt in the mornings because I would otherwise just get sweaty because my body produces so much heat and that's like with snow. So but that only lasts for 10 minutes. Usually I think I would have one or two or less fewer layers of clothing than other people. So if I sit in an airplane, it's usually too hot for me. Like in general, any place for me where they have the temperature shed at a level where other people are okay, I'm warm. And in Brazil and those kind of places, tropical places in general, the difference is crazy. Like I'll be literally be sweating in the airplane and there are people putting on their jacket. Like they're saying like, "Ooh, chilly." So it's, I mean, there's, I think it really varies between individuals. Overall, humans definitely like warmth and there's also research that humans actually get a dopamine and happiness boost from sun exposure and it will provide a light, interestingly, is responsible for part of that effect. So I try to select sunny places in particular. I don't so much care about the temperature. Actually, I prefer it a little cooler, but it's hard to find somewhere super sunny where it's cold. So that's the one you could say my body is made for the tundra. I don't dehydrate. I don't sunburn. I don't care about cold, but I do want sun. I love it. Yeah. You think that like in terms of, you obviously mentioned genetics play a role in that in terms of how, you know, how you adapt to all that. Do you think that you being somebody that is, you know, obviously in tune with your body and you care about your, your health and fitness and maybe being a little bit leaner and like, you know, maybe your metabolism is a little bit higher. Do you find that that plays a role as well too in that? Sure. Yes. I know lots of my clients, for example, they reported that at first they were more normal in these things. And as they got muscular, in particular, muscular because if you go very low in body fat, you have the opposite effect, you actually get colder. Yeah. So particularly muscular and just overall good diets, which also increases your metabolic rate, increases the firm, make a factor food. It definitely has an impact on these things and I think it's most noticeable in my female clients where they say that I used to be kind of normal in these senses, but now I'm very often warm and sometimes I'm even warm and when guys are cold. Interesting. Yeah. Definitely the body fat for sure because when I've put for shows in the past or just been in a regular fat loss phase, it definitely, you can tell a difference in terms of how you get it. It's very, very tough to get warm when you're low, low body fat. So that and then obviously like you said muscle mass is going to play a role and then genetics too. We're going to be a big thing on that. Cool. I'm going down these rabbit holes with you. I know you always have good information on it. So last time we chatted, you were, your back was acting up from last I saw. You look like you got over that injury. So I'm just kind of curious to hear the update there. I'll have. Yeah. After about a year of pretty constant back pain, I've now been pain-free since late August. And yeah, that's been a major relief. I've had to minor shotbacks try squatting again and it was like, no, not not ready yet. So now I can do everything except loaded squats and that lift, which is fine with me. Just I can train all my muscle groups with full volume. And I don't have to worry about back pain anymore. Just can't squat or that lift also put my training in a different perspective for sure. So pretty good. What were kind of the, you know, what was you kind of mentioned, it changed your perspective, what were maybe like one or two of those things that kind of changed for you going through this process? Yeah, I've always been more into bodybuilding and powerlifting, but I kind of like to at least, you know, I've, I've pretty respectable strength levels on all the major lifts over a press for maybe that lift. And I kind of chase those, at least some bulk phases were like, you know, 50 to 70 percent of the time for each lift, I would say, and definitely comes with higher injury risk to keep pushing the same lift because it's pattern overuse. And the power lifts are inherently not terribly injury friendly. So pushing those with high intensity, high volume for long periods over time definitely increases the risk of injury and yeah, puts it in a different perspective of, do I really still care about those strength levels and, you know, is it worth kind of forsaking it altogether? I've now shifted a lot more towards, yeah, I really don't care so much about strength anymore because I think I'm pretty much tacked out in terms of my muscular potential. And I could spend maybe two years building on my bench press to hopefully not get injured and then, you know, set a 5 to 10 pound PR and, yeah, what in the end am I going to gain from that? Whereas for the risk, it's, okay, maybe I messed up my elbow for good and I do long-term damage. You know, there's a limited number of times you can have, have elbow tendinopathy and not have any long-term damage. So it's definitely shifted me more in the perspective of longevity and bodybuilding rather than strength training or powerlifting. Oh, yeah, I feel like everybody kind of gets to that point at some point where it's like, you decide, hey, is it worth it to keep working on strength? And then you end up just being like, hey, for longevity aspects of it, it's just like more just bodybuilding style, like training just seems to be best, like long-term for injury prevention. Now, I've had this thought too where I feel like with weight training and you can include like the main lifts at bodybuilding style, whatever it may be, I feel like the risk of acute injuries is probably fairly low, but something I've been thinking about is I feel like the chronic overuse injuries probably are a little bit higher because of the amount of training volume that you're doing and like overuse, like repetitive use type injuries. I feel like you're probably a little bit more common than like a acute injury would be. Definitely. The acute injury rate is not high in general in strength sports because all the movements are very controlled. We do know that between controlled strength sports, such as powerlifting for a bodybuilding, the injury rate in powerlifting is severalfold higher according to most studies. And that includes bodybuilders, like actual competitive bodybuilders, which go into contest prep. And that also, at least in my experience, significantly increases injury rates or at least decreases the recovery potential from any injury. So that's pretty telling, I think, and it makes perfect sense, high intensity, same movement like I said, pattern overuse injuries, working with one RMS, which is inherently somewhat risky. I'm not saying it's inherently just like a big chance you're going to break your legs if you do a one RMS quad, but you are working with a literal maximum weight, which might actually be a super maximal weight if it's not your day or you estimated you're one RMS incorrectly. So that obviously carries with it a higher risk of injury, as inherently your technique will break down if you're using a weight that's too heavy for you to lift with good technique. So I think it makes sense that we see higher injury rates with a part of the thing, as you say. Do you, is there anything that you can maybe do to kind of overcome those more, like, again, we know, like acute type injuries are a lot lower, especially if you're doing bodybuilding style training. Is there any way that you work on like reducing that risk of those kind of overused type injuries, like, for you mentioned elbow tendinopathy, which is like elbow tendinitis essentially, right? Is that basically what it is? Yeah, basically it's the preferred term now, because I just suggest inflammation and osus suggests tissue degeneration, but almost all injuries have both components to some extent. And so they now just call it tendinopathy, which is also for the knees and they're like, which means that there is something wrong with it. And it's most likely it's going to have inflammation and it's going to have tissue degeneration, but the all terms, either sent osus suggests that that's the core thing that's wrong, whereas it's almost always a mix. So what would you, is there anything that you do there to kind of limit some of those, like, overused type injuries, like, yeah, there is a lot you can do for injury management. In fact, I think injury management is one of the big things that people have to learn as they get to the advanced level, because typically advanced trainees, when you start pushing your body to its maximum potential, the injury rates tend to be higher. And effectively, funny enough, many people in the gym, like, jump up people often lived with horrible technique, but many of them are literally too weak to injured themselves. Like, you see them do things that the way they squat, the way they did that lift, you look at it and you're like, well, if I did that for one session, I think I would have pain. And it's because you're lifting two to three times more weights, which obviously is more impactful for the body. And that's, I think in part because the connective tissues don't adapt to the same extent as muscular tissue, a tendon cross-sectional area, for example, tend to become stiffer, but they don't become bigger at the same rate as strength. In particular, you would say that strength increases a lot from a beginner. Like, I mean, think of what you could bench, where you just couldn't lift, where you hadn't lifted before. But there are many people, maybe 30 kilos, there's some people, maybe 20, maybe some people, 40 guys I'm talking about for a woman, maybe 20, is already a lot. And then when you get much stronger, you can quadruple that, and that's not only realistic at all for many people. So your muscle mass level, you can typically increase to a larger extent as well, but not as much as your strength. And then your tendons and other connective tissues in general, they don't increase nearly to that same extent. Like, it also makes sense in, I mean, you can't increase the tendon by fourfold in many places. It's, there's simply no space. So I think that plays a role in increasing the injury potential as well that the body's, yeah, the connective tissues, which is the ligament, tendons and light that are most likely to get injured. They cannot keep up with the increases in strength that you can experience, because not just are you increasing the morphological structures, like the size of the muscle, but you're also in large part strength is an improvement in the nervous system, like the motor cortex, the part of the brain that covers movement. It becomes much more efficient at coordinating the muscles. So you get kind of a double return on investment from the muscle getting bigger, therefore being stronger, but also the nervous system being better at coordinating the available muscle tissue. And thereby, exponentially increasing the strength at a given level of muscle mass. Is that kind of, so basically what it sounds like is you can increase your strength and muscle at a much quicker rate than basically what you can with the tendons. And from my understanding, tendons you can't really do too much anyways with it. Now, in terms of recovery process, too, that would be the same thing, right, where those tend to take a lot longer to recover from like training as well, too. It depends on what type of tissue, I think, the connective tissues. It might be the case because you can inflict more damage and the your recovery potential does improve. In particular, we know that for muscle tissue is probably also the case for other tissues. Our capacity for protein synthesis improves. We can get more ribosomes. We know that we can get more satellite cells and more my nuclei, so cell cores that may also assist in long-term remodeling of the tissue. And the question is more if the improvement in recovery capacity is in line with the increase in strength. And that seems to depend. A given workout does often take less time to recover from in advanced individuals than in beginners. So in terms of the neuromuscular tissues, actually in recovery often improves. We also have even short-term studies that are ability to recover from a given program. For example, one Norwegian study looked at high-frequency training on the squat. And it found that daily training of the quads, if you have even six sets for the quads, this allowed neuromuscular recovery, so basically recovery of strength within 24 hours after they were used to high-frequency training but not before that. But for the connective tissues, that may be a different matter. So I think it depends on which structures of the body you're looking at. Purely neuromuscularly, you can, I think that things improve, but then again, you also need more volume to keep gaining at a similar rate or even at a lesser rate. So that also offsets the improved recovery potential. So in practice, you're probably still at the same level or even worse off. Things definitely get harder to stronger your gap. Yeah, well, that just goes to show really the importance of, I think, two things recovery from training and just your execution of training too, right? Because you kind of mentioned earlier where in the beginning, you can get away with poor technique, poor execution, because you're just not lifting as much weight. But once you start getting stronger, you've got to start to dial that in because you're probably going to start placing way more stress on certain joints, connective tissue, rather than the muscle, if you're not paying attention to your execution, then obviously the recovery side of things becomes more and more important as well too. Make sure you program that correctly, but sorry, go ahead. In practice, it's always extremely multifactorial because there are differences in training volume, differences in maybe your recovery potential, but then we see in research that more advanced individuals, at least in some research on power lifters, they have lower injury rates than less advanced lifters, even though they're stronger. And that's probably because any increase in injuries susceptibility is offset by better injury management techniques. So you actually asked about that, and a couple very useful techniques are avoiding pattern overload, which also comes to using more free movements, a big kind of generally dumbbells, cables, switching exercises up and having an appropriate amount of variety. You don't want so little variety that you can't learn movement effectively, but you want enough variety that you're not always stimulating same muscle, the movement pattern, at least if you can, because if you're a powerlifter, of course, you have to do the powerlifts. And decreasing the intensity, we know that even up to 30, a ram is still very effective for muscle growth, but it's much, much easier on the tendons. So most research finds that tendons require an intensity of about 70% of one ram to adapt, whereas muscle tissue is more like 20, 10% and you can get maximum muscle growth at about 30% of one ram. So there's a big range between working in the chief maximum muscle growth versus where the tendons take a significant hit, which is the 30 to 70% of one ram range. That helps a lot. Good technique, not being excessively fatigued, just overall smart program design, it was a volume, et cetera. There are a lot of things definitely that help, and also, of course, exercise selection is a major one. Yeah, finding exercises, too, that probably fit your unique structure as well, too, and you just figure that out over time. Yeah, a lot of good takeaways there with that. And again, you've obviously really had to hone the set, and I feel like in the last couple of years with your back injury, so I just kind of wanted to hear your thoughts there on that, which, speaking of, moving forward for you, what's kind of the, now that you're back into regular training, has anything changed in terms of like what your goals are here, moving forward, what you're focusing on, or is that still kind of the same, I know you kind of mentioned that you're going back to more like bodybuilding style training stuff like that, but I didn't know if you had any like particular goals coming up or anything like that. Yeah, in terms of like training to focus, I'm probably going to pick up kickboxing, which may simply, in contrast to the idea of lower injury rates, but I think with appropriate volume, and I'm not going to do a lot of hard sparring, more like self defense type, you know, it gives me a new thing to focus on, and especially the coming year, when probably my back won't be 100% yet, the coming months, it's something I find fun and give me something else to do. And maybe you'll see how much I can, how much, how serious I'm going to become at it. Do you, so like, in that, in that example, they're like, I like to play hockey once a week, I find that again, like, you know, is that going to like lower my injury risk with everything no? Probably not like it's a contact sport, so obviously your risk goes up a little bit, but I feel like, again, if you're not trying to be like a professional bodybuilder or anything like that, it's, I would imagine it's probably a good thing to maybe do some other activities outside of just like weight training, you know, in terms of like, even to go back to what we just talked about with the injury management, I feel like maybe incorporating some different type of movement pattern like that and just kind of putting your body in those positions that you wouldn't normally get in when you're weight training. I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on that if that's something that you think could be beneficial for somebody. I'm not sure if it will be beneficial, but I think it's, it does help to kind of spread out the stress because the type of injury you will typically get from kickboxing, for example, or hockey is very different than that's from strength training. From strength training is much more internal. Kickboxing is very, you know, obvious bruising outside trauma, whereas bodybuilding is more internal overuse injury type injury, which is probably if you have both types of stress, like one session per week of kickboxing or hockey, that's really not going to normally interview. So it's, it's kind of free in terms of like my, my shins are not getting injured at all from strength training, so that one session a week of kickboxing, they can handle that. And it's, you know, kind of free injury volume sort of if you could think of it as I like that. Yeah, free. Right. Like you said, you shouldn't, you know, obviously you can always, you can go get hurt, you know, you can get a car accident or something and get hurt, right? So there's always that I think inherent risk of getting injured. But like you said, in one hour, you shouldn't, the shouldn't get hurt most of the time. So for you, have you noticed any, like now that you're back to normal training, I don't know if you're training volume changed at all, but have you noticed like kind of muscle growth, like come back or did it, did you feel like you ever like lost any during this process? I'm curious to hear that. Right. So I'm super pleasantly surprised by how well I maintain muscle mass. I know from having had many clients that had surgeries and big injuries that it's relatively easy to maintain muscle mass, but in my case, for many months, I could not train my lower back, like a erector spinae or my glutes at all. I know that I can, I think many people have this idea that you need squats or something for the quads, but really if you're just doing leg extensions, you can easily maintain all your quad mass with that. It's not difficult to maintain muscle mass at all. In general, the rule is that the third of the volume you needed to gain a muscle mass, you can relatively comfortably maintain on that. In my case, though, after months, now you could see my glutes were smaller, my erector spinae didn't have the tree trunks as much, but it wasn't major, like I still clearly looked like I lifted, which I thought would be maybe not even the case. Also in those specific muscle groups, like I still had booty, and yeah, it came back very rapidly, although I'm also somewhat disillusioned with how quickly the strength comes back. When I hip thrust, for example, I started doing hip thrust at some point, and my hip thrust, I don't know, hip thrust in a long time, but I think, last time I did that, I was easily over 180 kilograms, that was already many, many, many years ago, and now I started off and I think it was like maybe even 90 times five, that was pretty much the max for a session, and then it went up to 150 times five within a matter of weeks, which is pretty good, but then it became super hard again. That last, say, 40 kilograms that I should be able to gain, those were actually almost like the first time, but the first 50 kilos, those came back like nothing. That's super interesting. I think it makes sense where it's like the first part's easy, and then once you get close back closer to where you were before, that's where it really starts to get challenging again for you. It sounds like for you, you did a good job in maintaining, but I feel like at some point, you kind of hit it like you can do as low as like one third of the training volume that you were doing before to maintain, I think you said one third, for you, is that something where, again, at the beginning, you can do that for a while, but as you do that for longer, longer periods of time, do you think that that starts to, like you still see a little bit of muscle loss over time with that, because you did kind of mention that you still feel like you lost a little bit, but I don't know if that was for all your body parts or just your loose in your rectus. Only those. Only those, okay, because you mentioned that it came back fairly quickly, so I'm assuming again you met your rectors in your glutes, but everything else you felt like you maintained well and you didn't really lose any muscle in that process. Yes, one hundred percent. I lost strength because I couldn't go heavy, but I maintained all the muscle mass, and it was, so even in the glutes and the rectus pain I visually, and in terms of my like pure body comp stats, it was quite difficult to say, like without skin-folds collar percent of the length, it would almost be impossible to say, I'm still 90 kilos, and I've been up to 93 kilos or something, whereas I should have thought, well, but if almost all your glutes and your rectus pain I got, it should be like maybe two kilos of muscle loss or something, right? But in terms of like weight and body fat level, it was very hard to see any difference. Yeah, that's awesome, and I think that's good, you know, that's definitely something for me in the past where, you know, if I was one of those people where if I did train for like two days or something, I was like, oh man, I'm losing all this muscle and stuff like that. And obviously the research on it is really cool to show that it really doesn't take much to to maintain it. Do you, I guess when somebody thinks they lose muscle, is that typically just like kind of more of a mental thing and like maybe like a general loss or something like that that you'll typically see happen or maybe just like less of a pump, you know, just like in that initial week, you'll kind of notice that like you feel smaller, but did you actually lose muscle tissue? Yeah. If you've been training heart and in one week, you're, and you're not in energy deficit in one week and your protein index still decent and stuff, you should not lose contract all muscle tissue. However, there may be a relatively large visual difference for multiple reasons. You may have less glycogen storage, which in turn attracts intramuscular water into the muscle and also makes it a lot fuller, it literally is more full. And you also don't have that pump and also the edema funny enough, a big part of the reason when you're always training and you're always pushing your body kind of to the limit is that you're kind of perpetually in a state of muscle damage with edema like all your muscles are perpetually swollen to some extent. And that really is, it's kind of a permanent pump that you have and you lose that, which makes you look a lot more natural. It's like the opposite effect of when you know some people on gear have that look where it's like super heavy, their muscles are so full and vascular. And then when you stop training for a week, you get kind of the opposite of that effect where it looks a little deflated. You still have the kind of the raw size, but not the, the vascularity is a bit less. The skin is not as stretch over the muscle. The muscle doesn't look as, yeah, full, it literally is less full. There's not pushing against the skin as much. It doesn't look like it's about to pop out of the skin. That effect is, which is exactly the effect you want from a peak week, is the opposite of the effect that you get when you stop training for a while. That makes it seem like there's more muscle loss than there is. Yeah, I think that that's where a lot of people get themselves in trouble as they, you know, if they switch from either like a high training volume like programs, maybe a little bit lower training volume, again, you don't have like that pump and stuff like that and people think that it's like, again, they're losing muscle, but it's like, okay, you're not going to lose muscle that that quickly if you're lifting weights and like you said, protein doesn't get super low. I also find that like for clients, I don't know, whenever I'll do like a deal a week or like we kind of back off training volume, you'll kind of see like certain clients just like in that week, whether it's usually, I feel like more and a fat loss phase. You'll see this happen, but you'll see kind of people just their weight just kind of drops down in that week where you reduce their training volume. And I'm assuming that's why it's basically what you were just kind of mentioning there that in terms of what's going on with it. I can also have an effect, especially if it's like a real deal out week. Yeah. You also have the same effect that energy surpasses this deficit. Like as soon as you go into a deficit, you're going to lose a lot of water and some levels are going to go down. It's going to reduce sodium retention, the muscles are going to not be as pumped anymore. And you immediately look drier, which you literally are drier, which makes you look leaner, but you also look less full, and which you literally are. It's also less glycogen storage. So you get the same effect where you go low carb, even if you're not in energy deficit, you look drier because you are drier and you also are less full. So both low carb diets and being an energy deficit make you look more shredded, dry and being on high carb diets or energy surplus makes you look fuller, but a bit more bloated, more puffy, more, yeah, more juicy, if you will. I always bring this up because I feel like I don't think this is as much of an issue for women as this is for men. But like, I remember this was always kind of deterred me from like wanting to cut for the longest time. This was when I was like, oh, I just want to be as huge as I can, like all the time. And you just kind of mentioned that when like you go into a cut and like you all said, you just, it's like you lose all that fullness, but like you haven't lost any body fat yet. So you're just in this like terrible spot of like, do this sucks. I'm not eating as much, I'm just smaller, like I just lost all my muscles. And I feel like that, honestly, though, deters a lot of, like I said, probably more so men than women away from like cutting and actually like approving their body composition. Right. Women have the opposites. In fact, usually when they start bulking, I've quite some clients where I really have to assure them like they're at a decent level of muscularity. In fact, that most women almost get kind of stuck at this level where they learn how to be lean. They've made, they've built a decent amount of muscle mass, but they've never really successfully bulged. And some guys also get this actually when they've kind of become addicted to the six back. Yeah. And I myself had it for quite a while as well. I was like, well, actually, I haven't really bulged in years. And not that I am bulking again and doing the cycles, like both cut cycles, it really makes a difference. Like I think it's one or two kilos for me that over the time of like permacutting actually lost some muscle mass. And for women also, it makes a big difference because women have the same muscular potential as men, but let's do their starting muscle mass. And I think that more men get kind of stuck in impairment bulking and more women get stuck in permacutting, which is part of the reason I think we don't see as many plus partial preferences and other things. As many super jacks, women as men and many men don't get super lean. And they do get super lean, they have trouble building muscle when they've kind of figured out the cutting game, they have trouble then figuring out how to still kind of maintain that while also figuring out the bulking game. Yeah. No, I agree. I'm glad you brought that up because that is something that I said, right, it's like women are the opposite. Where they're always in this, like they're trying to be as small as they can, like all the time and they end up, you know, not properly going through a, you know, bulking phase. When you, when you kind of run into that issue, what are, I guess what would be some downsides for women to kind of stay in that, like that, that, you know, permacutting kind of phase. Well, muscle mass. So you, it's a lot harder to build muscle mass. And I think at the advanced level, you really won't build any muscle anymore, unless you're an energy surplus. And you also have to bulk for a certain period, I feel, to get appreciable results, like bulking for two weeks and then being like, oh my god, I'm fat and going back to cutting that doesn't, that doesn't cut it. No pun intended. I think in general, you want like a free to one ratio at a minimum. And so you should bulk three times as much in the year as you cut. And I think four to one or so is also very realistic. And some people can even have six to one if you're breathing meticulous with your macros during both cutting and bulk phases. But three to one should be very, very dual, which means only three out of every 12 months you should be cutting if that. Yeah. And I guess, you know, what would be like, you know, obviously, somebody hears that and I'm like, well, that does, that sounds crazy to me. But like, what would be the, you know, again, downsides of, obviously you said muscle, but they're not going, you're not going to be able to build as much muscle when you're in that, you know, kind of low energy. I guess you would call it low energy availability, whatever you want to call it. What would be some like other potential downsides? I'm sure hormonally, probably not going to be great to sit there for too long as well. Yeah. But it depends more on the, I think, more on the body percentage than whether you're an energy surplus deficit or whatever. So if you are continuously kind of maintaining as a woman 24-time body part, that should not be an issue. But if you're maintaining a level where you don't menstruate anymore, whereas before you did, that definitely has adverse effects. I think those are typically not permanent, but there is probably a limit to, you know, how long you can do that without, at least losing muscle mass and the like. We also know that in men, for example, any women at a certain level of lean is your testosterone level decreases. Now, that's not going to affect your muscle mass, just like that. The effect of testosterone on muscle mass takes months. We see typically that even research on anabolic endogenic steroids, which is mostly testosterone use in research, that it takes about a month before we see changes in muscle-protein synthesis levels, because the effects of the anabolic hormones and sex hormones are mostly genomic. So they kind of rebuild your body from the ground up, and that takes a while before you get these effects, it's goes to the cell core and you actually start changing the makeup of the body, the body parts of different proteins, different amounts of the proteins, and before that translates into meaningful differences in muscle growth, we're talking months often, especially at physiological doses. So if you're that lean and you're doing a contest, maybe you still have all the muscle mass. If you do it really well, you time things well, you don't want to be too slow, you don't want to be too fast, then maybe you maintain almost all the muscle mass that you had from booking into the contest, probably you'll lose some of it if you're pushing your muscular potential. But you can maintain most of it, but then if you hold that shape for six more months, probably you are going to lose some of it, but by that time the effects of testosterone and stuff, they really start hitting you. No, that's actually a good point. So what it sounds like is basically if you have, again, your cutting or whatever it may be and your testosterone, you get your blood work done, it's low, it's like if that just happened in that period of time, it's not really too much of a concern, it's just if you prolong that period of time that you're there, that's where you'll start to, it will happen. It's negative effects on like muscle growth and everything like that. And then to go back to, you know, you kind of talk about, it's not necessarily the energy deficit, it's more so the body fat percentage, you're going to run into those hormonal issues. But probably then what it sounds like is for somebody that is like cutting, let's say they're cutting six and nine months out of the year and whatnot. And again, maybe they aren't at low body fat levels, but probably the downside with that is you're probably not in a deficit as much as you think you are, but mentally you're probably in that kind of mindset of dieting and that probably is where you run into issues. But you also have that problem where you're not going to be building muscle, which is going to help you with your look long term as well. It sounds like there. I think many people get into, when you're super lean, it becomes more and more difficult to get even leaner, your metabolism is suppressed and you're kind of paramacoding, but a lot of the time you're probably more at maintenance, or at least an energy intake that doesn't result in fat loss because many people have this idea of maintenance intake is a fixed heart number, but it actually is actually arranged because there is metabolic adaptation. As soon as you're going to energy surplus, we see research, especially some individuals, they burn most of that surplus off up to a point. So the maintenance is more of a range and that range shift downward as you get leaner. So you're spending all of your time at say, maybe female kind of mind, it would be in the range of paramacoding, she'd be at like 1,300 to 1,700 and then now that we started poking, she's more in the range of like 1,500 to 2,400. So because of the metabolic suppression, actually, you're kind of surprising your body of a lot of energy availability, even if it doesn't immediately result in fat gain. Gotcha. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. You're basically just kind of, if you do that, you're kind of just basically decreasing the amount of food that you can eat throughout the year because you're going to see that down regulation, which, let's be honest, since today's modern environment, probably not great. I've got to have to do that all the time. Cool. No, that was really good kind of topic that we kind of went off on there. What I want to kind of shift gears to and I feel like this kind of goes hand in hand with what we just talked about is this concept of the P ratio. I know that you've been on stronger by, I think you kind of had like a round table on the thing with Steve Hall's podcast with like Eric Trexler about the P ratio and you kind of had at the time, this was been like a year or two now. I think that you guys did that. You kind of had different views. So I'm just curious. I guess first, what is the P ratio and then from there, like, what are your kind of views on it and if it's maybe changed in the last a little while? Yeah. P ratio is, refers to protein ratio and it's basically the ratio of lean to non lean mass to gain or lose. I don't recommend thinking of like the actual mathematics, just think of the ratio of possible to fat. If you're bulking, you want to gain a good ratio of possible to fat. You don't want to gain, one to one is mediocre, should be very realistic for almost anyone. And if you're getting less than that, maybe sedentary individuals can gain 25% of their weight as lean body mass. So if you're at that ratio, you know, you're doing your bulking. But that's also one of the main factors you can do about it, by the way, is the energy balance, fine tuning that a lot more. And then we're cutting you obviously, or most people, want to lose fat, not muscle. So the ratio is kind of the other way around. And that's, that's referred to as a P ratio, and there's a lot of research by Forbes showing that in general, the higher your body fat level, the better your P ratio in cutting and which means that basically higher body fat individuals have an easier time losing fat and will without risk of muscle loss. That's pretty well established. And the reverse also seems true in the research that lean individuals have an easier time putting on muscle without putting on fat. And this is in sedentary individuals. So this might just be, you know, gravitating towards kind of an equilibrium level. And that's kind of where we have the debate on, whereas I thought, well, this, I think there is does have some implications, even if not directly based on this research, I do think there is a certain maximum body fat level. We should not go over when bulking, both of practical and theoretical reasons. And they said, no, I, or paraphrasing, they said, no, I don't think it matters. We can basically bulk up to a higher body fat level as we can, it won't impact your P ratio. And I mean, we have very little direct research on this, basically none in terms of like body builders, bodybuilder type population that books on low body fat and high body fat in a randomized controlled crossover trial, those kind of things. We don't have that. So, but I think subsequent research is more aligned with than refuted the idea that overweight individuals have anabolic resistance. They have been multiple reviews papers, concluding that and even saying that quantifying it in terms of the effect being, say, being overweight or obese has a same effect as being and I think it was 200 deficit or something, 200 calorie deficit, something like that. And also, I think one more paper showing that overweight individuals have impaired recovery after workout. So, it's just short term, just they do a workout, leaner individuals to the same workout, see how many days it takes them to recover and then most research finds that overweight individuals need more days to recover from the same workout as leaner individuals. There's also a point where you're too lean, especially in women, we see that if you are so lean, probably because of the suppression of anabolic hormone levels and the like, it takes you longer to recover as well. So there seems to be kind of an optimal curve or kind of a range of productive body fat levels to spend most of your time in, not like crazy contesting, but also not obese and I would say not overweight either. So I wouldn't say, I would say my views on that have remained pretty steady. Well, you kind of hit on it, like, you want to be careful with those ranges too, right? Like, those probably not like super tight, they're probably, you know, there's probably a good range there, but with being too lean, and again, you're talking like, we're not talking like 10%, we're probably talking, you know, like you said, contest lean or whatnot, like that's where at that point, your probably your p ratio is probably going to get a little skewed a little bit more towards like fat gain at that period of time, right? Because it really is going to want to try to gain a little bit more body fat when you're like, it really, really low levels of body fat, which most people are going to have to worry about that. Yeah, most people in general, I would say that women in general, they don't have to worry about this at all, because there are almost no women, because of their better metabolic health and the typical social cultural desire of women to be a leaner than versus bokeh here, whereas many men are okay with being muscular, they're a bit puffier, women and basically never have to worry in practice about being too fat to build. Yeah, they, they're more have to worry about, are you actually bokeying? And for Mendo, I think it is a factor, and of course for powerless for strong men and the like weight, weight class, athletes like that, they, I think it's more of a consideration, you have to kind of see where you want to spend your time, do you boke in this range, but then move up to this weight class, I think it, it's more relevant for them. But I think it is also the case that many women, when he, men and women, the mostly men, when they're, for example, skinny fat and they're figuring out like, what do I need? Should I boke or cut? I think the answer is usually cut. And in general, I would say, if, if you're unsure, cut because it can only be beneficial in that direction, whereas it could be detrimental the other way around. So there's, there's like nothing to lose if you want to cut anyway, right? At the end, plus most skinny fat individuals can still recomb, and the difference actually in terms of muscle growth, it's not that great. I'm, I'm quite curious, I'll be interested to see that direct research on this, which we don't have yet. If we can see, for example, completely entrenched individuals or like skinny fat, sanitary individual, if they start bokeying versus if they do a good recomb program, will it actually be such a meaningful difference in muscle growth? I think it won't be that big because we know that in novice level lifters, there is a cap on muscle growth. So they can do kind of whatever and they'll gain. There's even some research showing that I posted about one paper that the muscle growth in endurance training group was the same as in a strength training group. And that's true for like the first maybe three, four weeks or so, but after that it diverges and you really need the strength training to get progressively bigger. So probably you could also be cutting that period because the bokeying really doesn't at much. You're just going to, you're going to max out the muscle growth anyway. Yeah, which, you know, definitely take advantage of that. That's, that's always the fun times you just touch away and you start, you start growing as long as you're consistent. But yeah, no, that's, I'm glad you brought up that point where it's like if you are somebody that, you know, like you're skinny fat again, I would, I guess you would kind of describe skinny fat as again, you're not like necessarily big or like super overweight, but you just don't have a lot of muscle mass. And again, more of your body composition is more fat compared to muscle essentially. Yeah, that's it. You don't look muscular, but your body fat percentage as a guy is 20 plus percent. Yeah. And in that case, you just, you don't necessarily need to like, because I, I do feel like there's this kind of like, in the fitness industry now, you know, people have heard, hey, in order to build muscle, you need to be in a surplus, but it's like depending on where you're coming from, you still probably have some recomb, especially if you haven't done like a good training program or anything like that too. I mean, I feel like that's going to play a big role and then you also need to look at like your sleep recovery management, like you pro, like protein intake, like those are all going to be big things where I feel like you have a lot of like rules that you can still utilize before you have to decide, hey, I need a game weight in order to, to build muscle. Definitely. I think recombosition is much easier or much more possible than many people say, like when I probably just article about whether it's possible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, and that completely blew up because there were still a lot of people that thought it wasn't even possible at all. And in that article, I was quite brazen and claimed like, even in like high level athletes and stuff, we see it. Like there are studies showing that even contest competitors, clearly not all of them, but some of them they recomb into the contest as mostly bikini competitors figure, you know, like not pro physique or bodybuilding girls. But you still see it in well trained people that have been training for many years. And it's just when they start doing things better, then they were before smarter training, harder training, higher volume, optimized nutrient timing, all of the little details, micronutrients, sleep, you know, not just I go to the gym, but these three times a week, I live hard and I get my protein shakes in. But like optimizing all the variables, you can go a long way with that. And most of my clients, they recomb the first weeks of the program and they've been training for years. Now, am I going to get like a powerlifter that's one, two national medals and it's a 10% body fat. And I got a recomb that guy to 5% body fat. No way. The more muscle you have, the more difficult it is and the lower your body fat, the more difficult it is. Yeah. But most people are not at that level yet. And I'm sure genetics probably play a role in that too, where some people I can get away with even more. But like you said, yeah, most people aren't there. And I think that that's one thing I've been trying to get out to people's like, hey, you don't necessarily have to be in this sort of like, yes, we know that being a surplus is going to be great for building muscle, but in a lot of situations, you, you, you could probably get away with being at maintenance or even certain situations at deficit because I'm assuming there too, again, how much muscle you have is probably going to play a role in like, okay, this person can maybe be in a little bit of a larger deficit versus, you know, somebody that's a little bit more advanced might need to be in like, not as large of a deficit will sort of maintenance type of situation. Yeah. I would say in general, the, when you are bulking, the more, if you are as really bulking and you need to bulge, then the more advanced you are, the slower the, the lower the deficit has to be, like the smaller the deficit has to, or the energy, the energy surplus, not the deficit. The energy surplus has to be like, if you're really advanced in your, your bulk, I mean, there are some of my clients that book on 2% energy surplus because really just do the math, how much muscle do you expect to gain this month? Like, it will be, you know, 200 grams or something. Okay. So we know that net metabolizable energy density of lean body mass is like 1800 calories. So divide by five. And that's the extra actual energy that has to go into the body this month to gain that those 200 grams of lean body mass. There's not a lot to divide by 31 and that's your daily energy surplus. I mean, that's, that's the, the net, the, the raw, the, the brutal energy plus is going to be a little bit bigger than that, but it's still very, very small numbers we're talking about. So you really have to lean, lean boat when you have for natural 20s that are pretty advanced. And so to go back to kind of this P ratio concept does, I guess we probably, when we're gaining, we're trying to, you know, we're trying to bulk or whatever it may be, it's probably, there's not really anything you can do, especially if you get more advanced to where it's going to be like a, like you're not going to just gain all muscle compared to body fat. When you gain weight, you're going to see some of that be disorder's body fat, correct? Can we ever get it to a perfect ratio there? I mean, theoretically, probably you could, but it was, it was kind of fact to kind of know your energy expenditure and ensure that your body is, you know, to the calorie and exactly the energy surplus that the body can use for muscle protein synthesis. And then theoretically, it would be possible, but if practiced, no, it's not possible. Yeah. You have to gain some fat as an advanced training to gain muscle mass, right? And I guess what would be, so to kind of go back to like the beginning where you just talked about like, again, they're coming out with, hey, you can be at higher body fat levels and still build muscle. You seem to think that that's not going to put you in a great position to do that. But obviously, you know, from that standpoint, you know, either way, whatever your view is on that, like at the end of the day, going too high in body fat is not going to be great for overall health and just, you know, your overall look, right? So I guess maybe hit a little bit more on like the downsides of if you are this person, like, oh, who I can build muscle with higher body fat percentage, like what would be, you know, why would you kind of steer somebody away from, from doing that? Anyways. Yeah. I mean, nobody doubts that you can gain muscle at high body fat levels. It's just that the P ratio might not be optimal. You might do gain too much fat, or it may be just a little bit harder because your recovery is impaired. And basically, what we know is your recovery is impaired, maybe in trained lifters, you can offset that with habitual training, et cetera, but then those same effect should apply to leaner individuals. So I'm skeptical that you could really offset that completely, especially when you get to a BCZ level for a man like 25% body fat. And we also know that there is anabolic resistance in another one or two review papers also confirming that although there isn't that much new research to be fair in terms of the actual protein synthesis response to a meal or a training session, but what we have indicates that it's probably impaired in obese individuals compared to healthier individuals. And we have the one rat study, which is we had a huge debate about, but it kind of tends to be supports that the buildup of insulin resistance has negative effects. And there have been two studies, I think they're both cross-sectional, they're not good quality, but they also suggest a link between insulin resistance and impaired muscle growth, or greater muscle loss during entifism, which is interesting because it's not clear how that would work. There's a common theory that you need your insulin sensitivity to be good so all the nutrients can go into the muscle, but it's the same for fat, you would have to explain why it goes into the muscle and not the fat. So you would specifically need insulin sensitive, you know, one tissue versus the other tissue, just at the whole body level, making everything more insulin sensitive or resistant, isn't necessarily going to change where the body partitions the nutrients. So that theory doesn't make a lot of sense to me yet, but we also know that insulin resistance is related to inflammation, we know that high level of chronic inflammation can impair muscle growth, and yeah, how much that matters is also still debatable, if you're relatively healthy or diet's good, you know, that all that's wrong is that you're 25% body fat, maybe it's not an issue yet, but we do know that there is a certain level of inflammation, that is an issue, and we know that higher body fat levels are almost invariably too higher chronic inflammation levels. So based on these factors, like even if we don't have the right research on it, I would say, you know, why risk it, plus hormonal health, especially for men, you're testosterone to estrogen ratio is going to be worse, the more fat you have at a post tissue, your fat mass produces aromatase, which is an enzyme that converts the testosterone into estrogen. So you gain less testosterone, typically, at a certain level of body fat, the higher up you go, less testosterone you have, the more estrogen you have, that's also why some obese individuals even are hypergonal, they have, like they have low testosterone levels from the result of the obesity. It's not the norm, but it is a thing, and you can also get things like gyno, because the ratio of estrogen to testosterone, like male to female sex hormones, is screwed compared to what it is at optimal health, yeah, those effects that, you know, that can be good for muscle growth, either because we know that even in the physiological range, difference in testosterone level, within an individual, they impact muscle growth. Yeah, so, and again, you did, like, you kind of mentioned all the hormonal aspects of it, but even the, just the physical aspect, like the look, right? Like the higher body fat percentage, you're just not gonna, you're not gonna see your muscle as much, right? And I think that's probably a lot of people get themselves in trouble when they, when they go on, like, you know, you call it the dreamer bulk is, it's like, yeah, you're not seeing a lot of muscle growth, because you just have, it's covered by all the body fat as well, so just from the aesthetic look from it, it's like, it's just, you're not gonna have that good of a look in those higher body fat levels. Yeah, I mean, it's technically personal preference, but for the vast majority of individuals, yeah, you're, I think people underestimate how much better they can look at lower body fat levels. Yep. And they, many in particular, overestimate how much better they look with extra muscle mass. Just think of all the before, after photos in the world, how many of them are cutting, how many of them are bulking. Like, I can pose many photos of clients that do a very successful bulk, and they would look worse, like just based on like the flat, selfie, short list photo, they look like a bit jubby at the end, like, puffy, and it's like, well, wait, what comes out after the next cut phase, they're gonna look spectacular, but at the end of the bulk for in the two shirts, they look much better, but like, short list, yeah, you don't have to six back anymore or not as much, you know, everything doesn't look as crisp. And all the mass, it's, yeah, it's somewhat hard to tell, yeah, he's, he's more, he's bigger, but he's also like, fatter. So, but when you're cutting, especially short list and good lighting and flexing, yeah, you can have a really easy before after photo and almost anyone. Yeah, I agree. And this goes back to what we said earlier, right? Like, I think you just hit on this again, but again, women typically have less muscle and then, then typically I just have more body fat than they think and they need to, they need to get that down. Again, I, like I told you at the beginning of this, I fell into that trap where I just was like, oh, I can't go under a certain weight, and it's like, just tell me back from not having my best look. And I feel like you end up to get to the body fat levels where you, you know, you get that good look that you, that shredded look, not, I guess not necessarily shredded, but that, that lean look that you want, like your body weight's probably going to be a lot lower than what you think it, it's going to be on when you get there. So, yeah, I know because for me, it was like, you know, this was years ago, I got up to like 190. I was just pushing weight. I'm five seven and like, I've just put on weight too much body fat and I just had it in my mind. I can't go lower than the certain number. And when I got on stage for the first time, I was in the like 140s and I was just like, damn, that's way, way smaller than I thought. So to sum this up, you look better, right? Oh, yeah. Look way better. Like you said, and exactly like you said, too, it was like shirts and shirts didn't look as great, but then like once you ripped that shirt off, it's like you look way better. So it's, you just have to, you just have to find that, that happy medium there. So, and this goes to this next point here, well, you know, is obviously, you know, we want to try to work on our feet. This year, we want to try and make sure that we're gaining mostly muscle to fat. So, what are some kind of like, practical, practical applications here? And is this something that you can like maybe improve, like over time as well? Yeah. So B ratio is one of those things where it's kind of like everything or nothing, depending how you say it, because everything impacts your B ratio, like doing more volume, having optimized protein intake, certain aspects of nutrient timing, not training fastest. For example, people's workout nutrition, like not directly peep roast, but sense which in the workouts reasonably well, these things all impact the ratio of lean to normally mass. Everything that impacts your degree of muscle growth, impacts your p ratio. So it's, it's kind of everything. We see big effects on the p ratio of sleep deprivation, for example, and sleep quality interventions. They improve the p ratio a lot. And everything essentially matters. So everything that we know affects either fat loss or muscle growth in that it improves fat loss or improves muscle growth will also improve your p ratio. So your p ratio is kind of in a sense the, it's sort of the final metric of how effective your entire program is. No, I like that. It all, you know, you would be given a disservice if you just said one thing was more important than the other. So I guess maybe then from this standpoint, is there something like, what about like rate of gain? Because I feel like that's probably where people screw up, like obviously everyone that sleeps important, you know, protein intake is important. Like you said, those things are going to push muscle growth and that's going to help the p ratio. I would imagine that where people get kind of screwed up here with this is like rate of gain. Like they just really try to, they're like, oh, I'm walking. So I'm just going to freaking push that weight as quickly as I can. Yeah. I think one of the most important determinants is definitely the energy balance factor, where we know that, like I said, when, when lean bulking, you have to keep the energy surplus capped at a very narrow level, which is not going to be a big surplus. The more advanced you are, the more muscle you have. The harder it is to gain muscle, the less muscle you can gain. So the smaller your productive energy surplus becomes and above that, the ratio, the p ratio very quickly deteriorates. It's mostly going to be fact that you gain. So the energy surplus is a huge factor. Similarly, when cutting, we know that there is a certain optimum level of energy deficit. And if you go beyond that, you're going to lose a lot more muscle. So there's a level where maybe you can even become and then there's a level where, okay, now fat loss is accelerated, maybe at the expense of muscle growth, but fat loss is optimized. And then at certain points, we even see in some research that the muscle loss increases so much that they actually lose less fat. There's a study by Garfetal where this happens, like the 30% deficit resulted in less fat loss than the 20% surplus, which is crazy, that it's normally not the case in research. But it might be attributable to the 40% group losing muscle, whereas the 20% group is gaining muscle. So yeah, one group was recomping, essentially, and the other group was just losing a lot of mass, including some muscle mass. In that 30%, they were just losing more muscle, whereas the people in the 20, they had enough energy to wear it. Like you said, they were gaining some of the body mass in that process. Yep. And any muscle that you lose is fat that you don't lose because the energy only goes out of your body once. Do you, and you may have just had a, but do you think that too when you, the body's going to be a little bit more frifty in terms of losing muscle versus fat as well? Or do you think it really doesn't care? What do you mean? Like, in that case, when you go to like a larger deficit, is the body going to be a little bit more hesitant to like, okay, hey, we're not going to maintain our muscle, like it's just, it doesn't want to lose muscle as much as it would like fat, like it's going to be a little bit more resistant to losing muscle or not. But the bigger the energy deficits, the more muscle you're going to lose. So with, when you're an energy deficit, you can think of it as you have two factors pulling on the muscle mass, on the one entry of the energy deficit, and you're telling your body, look, we need to get rid of some of energy in our body. Now, we can either get rid of fat or muscle roughly speaking, like the body typically wants to get it from your heart or an organ, you know. So it prioritizes based on importance and the importance you, you, it gives it is imposed by you with the strength training because the strength training says, look, the muscle mass, we need it because without that, the muscle, the body would just look at that big biceps and be like, well, we have this big biceps sitting around that's not really doing anything. And it's very energetically costly to maintain that because it's not just energy that's there, but it also costs energy to maintain it. And every time you move your biceps, you are spending more energy than you have to. So then the body is like, well, get rid of the biceps. And with the training, you have the opposites thing that's where you say, no, we need the biceps and therefore the body says, okay, we'll take the fat. Gotcha. Yeah. So again, saying that signal is super important there to maintain it, but it does, at some point, be like, okay, we just got to figure out what's more important. You're having a big bicep or it's just getting enough energy to keep you alive. And like you said, to keep the more important things rolling. So cool. Meadow, we're here at the top of the hour. So appreciate your time. Is there anywhere where you would like to lead audience to or anything coming up for you that you want to be at lead audience to? But as always, yeah, I'm mostly active on Instagram and YouTube these days. Do more on YouTube. So look forward to producing more like longer forum, high quality video content. Got like a studio set up and everything now. Awesome. So look forward to doing more of that. Cool. So check out the YouTube channels and aware until we talked before that so that you were on YouTube a lot more. So cool. Awesome. And we'll appreciate your time. As always, I had a couple other questions and whatnot I wanted to get to, but we ended up just hammering away at that p ratio. I thought that was a really good topic. So thanks again for your time. And we'll talk to you next time. Thank you for listening. If you want more free content like this, follow me on Instagram @JeffH91_ or visit jhelf.net. See you next time.