Episode 22: Jay Jack: When Dogs Fight within the Household

(upbeat music) Hey everybody, welcome to something to bark about. The podcast where we're gonna talk about dogs, dog training and whatever else strikes my fancy. My name is Chad Mackin and I will be your host and your guide on this journey into the world of dogs. Hey everybody, this is gonna be a great episode. I think I got Jay Jack to sit down with me and talk about his reintegration protocol and it's a really good program and it's one of the most common questions I get. People send me Facebook messages all the time, hey, I have two dogs in the same household, they fight, what can I do about that? And I think Jay has the best systematic answers that I've seen to date, so we're gonna let him talk about that. And I hope this is one of these things. I've been getting contacted by people who have listened to the separation anxiety episodes, trainers who are telling me, you know what? I'm having my clients listen to these or I'm linking them on my webpage because I think it's valuable information. I hope this one is gonna be similar to that. I hope the trainers who are listening to this are gonna say this is really good information. I want my clients to have it and make it available. But here's the deal. To do that, I had to cut out a lot of stuff at the beginning 'cause when Jay and I get to get together, we just started talking about life since dog training conversations and did all that stuff. So what I'm gonna do is this. I'm gonna do this episode, which is gonna be for the general public and anybody who wants it and if you're a dog trainer you wanna share it, this is the episode you wanna share. But I'm also gonna do the bonus episode, which is gonna include all of the other stuff. So for people who miss dog training conversations, that's gonna be kind of what we're gonna do for you guys. So that'll be the bonus episode, all right? So two episodes, a lot of the same content, but we're gonna add some other stuff to the second episode for those of you who miss Jay and the old podcast, all right? So with no further ado, let's get right to it. - Yeah, so the reason why I wanted to come, I've been trying to get you back, I shouldn't say trying, I've been thinking about getting you back on ever since we had you on the last time. And there's a subject that I get contacted with quite a bit and it's one of the most common questions I get from people on Facebook ago, what would you do with this, what would you do with that? And it's an area where I defer to your expertise almost entirely, you have a system put out for it, but I wanna talk about your reintegration protocol when you have two dogs in the same house who are fighting and how do you get them back in? You present on this subject, I watch to present on it like three times in Australia, I watch to present on it here and also I saw a part of your presentation that you did up in Washington when we did that little thing together there, so I've seen it plenty of times and every time I hear it, every time I see it, every time I hear you talk about it, I pick up something new. So I kinda wanna let this be your show today and let you help my listeners know how you do this stuff and it'll be nice to have, one of the things been interesting about this podcast by the way, so I'm getting contacted by a lot of trainers who are telling me they're having their clients listen to specific episodes, like the separation anxiety episode and I had another person tell me that they were making all of their employees listen to the client compliance episodes. - Oh wow. - So this podcast is a little different because it's more subject directly ready to subjects than the other one, people can actually go, "Oh, I wanna listen to this podcast on this subject." So this is gonna be in my library of things to send to my clients if they have, if they have dogs who are fighting, I'm gonna keep this link handy, print it out, QR code, whatever, so my clients come for that meeting, and they go, "Before we start working, listen to this." One of the things, but I think this is really, it's a really valuable thing and I wanna give it to people to listen to it and one of the things that I tell people whenever they ask me about this, they bring in two dogs who are fighting, I tell them I say, "Listen, this is a process, it's a long process, we don't do this overnight." And I also say most people who start it don't finish. They just, it takes too long and what happens is they get greedy, they feel like they have a certain degree of success and they push their luck. And every time you push your luck, you have a failure that puts you almost back at the beginning. So you have to be in it for the long haul, the long boring haul. And so-- - The other thing that happens to people is they don't, when sometimes when I think of the people that don't finish, I think of the people that get to good enough. - Yeah. - Like there's a period, there's a period where the dog on the program, there's a period of time where the dog is being managed and life is out of this stress. You know what I mean? Like both dogs are on place, but you have the peace of mind to be able to watch a movie. Like you can sit there and watch a movie and there's no fight, but they're both under orders, you know what I mean? And then that is not the end of the protocol. For me, like I got that from you, like dogs, you're not done until you can trust your dogs at Liberty and maybe you never can get there, but it's like shoot for the stars and end up with the moon, you know what I mean? Like your goal is to get them as close to peaceable Liberty as you possibly can safely, but most people get to manage lack of stress and then go, yeah, that's good enough. - Right. - They just stop. And you're like, I mean, I get it because if you've been living in the stress of like waiting for a fight to pop off and you're just stressed, it's like living on a prison yard, you're just waiting for something to jump off. It's like I get it. Once you get to the point where everything is managed and you can go, it's, you have to be dedicated then to the well-being of your dog 'cause you've already gotten, it's like you've done the negative reinforcement thing, you've taken the pressure off yourself, but now it's like, that's cool, the pressure is off, but how much do you want to accomplish? Because you can get a lot more. - Right. - Mostly the time, you know what I mean? - So that's the first thing I think that everyone needs to know, this is a process and it does take time because we want to do it safely and mistakes are costly, especially when you have serious dogs. Like you got a couple, you know, dogs who aren't real intent and they're just, you know, talking smack, that's one thing, but when you got dogs who are serious, you know, mistakes are costly and potentially fatal. And so you've got to take your time. This is not something that you want to put a timeline on and say I'm going to accomplish this in six weeks or six months or even a year. You go, I can't remember who it is. I said it in the last podcast I did. I think Robin McFarlane and Tyler Muteo have a very similar saying, I don't remember which one is who's, but it's as fast as you can, as slow as you have to. - Yeah. - And that's never more true than with this subject because it is one of the toughest things that trainers ever asked to solve. - Yeah. - Right? So let's start and tell me a little, let's, for people who don't know you or know your background, talk a little bit about, you know, the situation that you lived in that required you to come up with this. (laughs) - Yeah, I mean, so I grew up in and around game-bred dogs, like I grew up in Louisiana, my background is in Pipples, specifically like the game-bred Pipples. And so because of that, I was also kind of engrossed in that culture of one dog. Like I did not socialize dogs. I did not let a dog run loose. Like I was in that mindset of like, these dogs are not gonna be, you know what I mean? It's not gonna be like, hey, fluffy needs a friend. I'm like, okay, you know what I mean? I grew up with murder dogs, that was my kid. And so I met my wife and she had non-Pipples. And I was like, I had to, I was faced with the dilemma of find another soulmate or figure out how to have these dogs lived together. (laughs) And soulmates are fairly rare. So I was like, well, I looks like I'm gonna have to figure this out. And I tried a number of different approaches, number of different advice from professional trainers. I was not a trainer at the time. I was a dog person in Airquotes, but I was a good, I was a very good dog handler and I could live with dogs well, but I did not understand training. I didn't know anything about the concepts of training. I didn't know how to, I didn't understand. I could live intuitively well, but I didn't know how to, I didn't know how to do behavior modification. And so I was getting advice from trainers and stuff and it just was not working. It was like, it just didn't work. The advice that works on the stereotypical dogs just did not work for me. And as my wife and I were together longer, that pack of dogs grew old and eventually passed away and replaced with other dogs. And of course, once she met my dog, she was then firmly in love with the Pitbull world as well. So now the next batch of dogs was all pits. So now I was in the situation of not just managing one gamey dog in a house of normal dogs, but managing many gamey dogs, which is another layer of complexity. 'Cause if only one dude on the yard is a jerk and nobody else wants to fight, it's pretty peaceful. It's annoying, but it's pretty peaceable. (laughs) If everybody on the yard is like, say that again. And it's like, we have a much more tense yard. So yeah, so I had to kind of learn through that process myself and through things I learned and just making modifications to the process in my own mind and my understanding of it. I kind of came up with the thing that worked very well for us and then wound up giving that advice to a bunch of other people. And it turns out that it works really well for most of the people that I give that advice I have yet to have people have horror-border results with it. That's kind of where I came from. All right. So at one time you had four game-bred pit bulls in your house. One was from a good litter, but was soft personally. We love her anyway. I'm not a shame, Dougher. One was one one one one could be. Yeah, two two were legitimately bad. Not bad, like I love the dog, but like two, maybe in Jack's both were like serious cases. Milo is a suit. Milo was a super, super mellow, personable dog and was actually dog social. But if challenged would absolutely fight to the death. So as long as everybody got along, he was cool. And Mabel is very dog dominant, but doesn't look to fight. She looks to settle scores. She will fight when the fight jumps off. She gets in and she's in 100%. Bella avoids everything. She's a little soft. And Jack's was the powder keg that we put in. We were managing everything really, really well until Jack's. He unfortunately knows nothing about communication. Or didn't at the time. And so it was it was like having a kid with like, if I speak about this incorrectly, forgive me, but like assburgers or autism or something like the, I don't know if that's the right one, but like the kids that don't recognize social cues, social cues and facial expressions and stuff. Like you can teach them, hey, take a poll or put it on the wall. This is uncomfortable. This is angry. This is funny. And then they can like learn, oh, you're making the funny face. You're having fun. Oh, you're making the uncomfortable face. You're uncomfortable. Living with Jack's was like that. Like he didn't understand can I communication at all? And he caused, he is extremely dog social. But he didn't know how to communicate. And so he started a lot of fights. Like he's like a personally, he's like somebody that close talks way too intensely. And doesn't understand why people are shoving him back. And then when he gets shoved, he thinks he's being attacked and he defends himself. It's like if you polygraphed both participants in the fight, they would both pass a polygraph saying the other one started. Right. And they're both awkward. Jack's is like, what the hell's going on? I'm just defending myself. I love you too. So it's like, yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a real difficult scene. Because of the level of communication that was needed and not attained. Like they just did not know how to communicate. And that, that, that was a real tough one. That took me about eight months to get those dogs from where they would put each other in the hospital. Easily to being able to cohabitate not in kennels, not in a crate in a rotate like, you know what I mean? Like we slept with nobody in kennels. They could ride in the car, nobody in kennels. I could leave them unattended together in the car while I go to the grocery store. Like their life was one of liberty. But it took me like eight months, you know? And that was, that was a real trick. I learned a lot about training through that process, I think. Yeah. All right. So there's your background. And these dogs had hospitalized each other on a few occasions. Oh, yeah. And they were not jokes of dogs. They were legit dogs. Yeah. So and I want to set that up because I think a lot of people, like I think a lot of people when they hear about reintegration protocols, they're thinking is that this isn't going to work for real serious dogs. This is going to work for dogs who are mostly serious or kind of a little weak. But you're talking with some of the worst case scenarios you could have. Yeah. No, these, this is like, uh, I've, I've been able to reintegrate very, very, very, very dangerous dogs. Like, because the truth is, like that axiom is true. Like most dogs fight because they think they have to. They don't fight because they want to. And I know that there are dogs that enjoy a good scrap. But there's like, there's like three kinds of, there's three kinds of dogs that, that'll fight, right? There's dogs that enjoy a good scrap. And that's easy. You just teach them not to. Like, I know that sounds stupid. But as easy it is to teach a dog. Like, people will throw the ball in the dog runs for the ball. It's not that hard to teach the dog. You wait till I release you after I throw it. Like, almost anybody can figure that out. So dogs that fight because they like a good scrap. It's just like teaching them to leave a tennis ball. Like, hey, that thing that you like to do, you just can't do. We can do this other stuff, but you can't do that. So it's like dogs that like a good scrap are pretty easy to square away. Dogs that fight because they think they have to are pretty easy to square away. You just have to show them that they don't have to. And then that becomes a process on the trick. And that's what most of this protocol that we're going to talk about is. And then there's that really true 1% dog, the Jeffrey Dahmer dog. So they're just sociopath. And you can, I mean, why you would want to, I don't know, but you could teach them how to have managed safety in your life. But it is almost never going to be because they're not doing it because they need to try to find a way to get safe. Or they're trying to manage resources or self-soothe. And they're not doing it like an impulse control like, hey, I want to scrap around a little bit right now. Let's give a little bloody like they're not like that. They're like, you shouldn't be breathing and I'm going to make you stop. Right. And not because you did something, not because you looked in the air. You didn't negotiate properly, but just because I want to murder all of my own kind. Like that's exceptionally rare. I think, you know. I agree. I agree. Those are the dogs that, you know, I mean, you got to decide why are you keeping that. Why are you keeping a dog like that with multiple dogs? Like, what are you doing? Because I'm sure I can get to a point where that dog can live a managed life safely. Because that I know I can accomplish. But then what degree of management is going to make it where it's not fair to the day? Like if he's on police or created all the time, what kind of life is that? And why are you insisting that he live it? Not only that, the other dogs in the house living with that sociopath knowing that he's waiting for his chance to kill them. Like every dog should be able to feel safe in their home. Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah. And so yeah, I mean, but that fortunately that is like super, super, super crazy rare. Yeah. That's super rare. Yeah. I always tell people I've been doing socialization with anti-social dogs for, you know, over a decade now, all over the world to do this stuff. And I've seen like, I've seen that real Jeffrey Dahmer dog like twice. And I always tell people if you think you might have seen it, you haven't. Because when you see it, you will know you will never mistake something else for it again. There's no question. The only word that comes to my mind is evil when I see it. Like whenever I think back on those two dogs, like I get, I get cold shooting pains in my belly. Like in my guts, I go, that's wrong. That's not good. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's do this. I will, I will, I'm going to. How do I want to present this? I'm going to start with a little bit of theory about it before we start into. But it goes like this. Most people, like obviously if you have dogs that are fighting, crackhead can't get off crack if they have access to a crack climb. Right. So like you're not going to break the habit if they're continually fighting. So you must separate the dogs mechanically so they cannot fight. Like they can't get into a fight. You know, I mean, you can't stop eating twinkies while you're eating twinkies. And you're like, you got to stop them from fighting. The problem is most people when they separate dogs, they separate them socially, not mechanically. Right. So like they- A distinction. They put one in the basement and one upstairs or they put one gets the yard and the other gets the house and then they rotate. So when people say crate and rotate, they're not talking about a crate in the living room and the dog that is rotated out loose is also in the living room. They're talking about literally all the way separated like two, both dogs believe they are an only dog. Like when my wife was a kid, her parents used to tell her that she had a sister that lived in the attic and she never saw it. And we wonder why she turned out to be insane. But you know what I mean? Like that was like a little joke they played, but that's what most dogs that are separated live like. They believe that they live in a house, then they are the only dog, but there's the smell, the sound and they know there's one in there somewhere, but they never see them and they never deal with it. And the problem is teaching dogs to live together is teaching them about social skills. And if they never see another dog, you can't develop skill around or regarding the other dog, you know. And the other thing is I got to separate them mechanically, but I don't want to separate them socially because I want them to see the flow of the house from inside their crate. So if I put it in the right place, it's going to be a good way to get it. the dog in the bedroom and shut the door and I let the other dog out and the other dog is running around the house and I'm starting to do the rules, boundaries and limitations bit and I'm training the dog and the dog is learning to defer to me. That's really cool but the dog in the bedroom does not get to see that. It does not get to know that. All they know is what they saw before and what they saw before was a dog that had no control and they had to fight to defend themselves. And they have no other experience than that. And then you spend three months training your dog, you know, you can teach him how to sit down and come back and place and all this kind of stuff. And the other dog gets the same treatment. But neither dog has seen the other dog train. So all they know about that dog is what they used to know. And then one day after a couple months you bring them back out and you put them back together and you're hoping all the training holds up and they fight again. And everybody is like, dude, I've been doing obedience. We've kept them separated and we've been doing obedience for like the last six months and it just didn't do anything. And it's not the obedience that didn't work. It's the fact that there's a social contract that everybody has to know about, right? So like social beings have to know that the other beings are on board with the social contract or else they don't feel safe or secure or content with their life. The example I always give people is I've got to know that there's a line of social responsibility from this being to the greater good or to me or to something. If a guy walks in the door right now and starts acting really squarely, I'm going to feel like I don't know what's going on. Like if he's talking to himself and just totally out of character, I'm going to be like, oh, something's wrong. And I'm going to feel the need to go, Hey, can I help you? Like, are you all right? You need something? If that guy immediately switches from talking to himself and it turns out he's got a earphone in and he's like, Oh, hey, hang on just a second. I'm on the phone and he starts behaving in a socially acceptable manner. I will then feel better because he's giving me signals that, Hey, I'm playing by the rules. It just looked weird. You didn't know I had a headphone. It just looked weird, but I played by the rules. I will feel better because he's shown me signs that he knows what the game is and he's playing the game too. If you go, Oh, that's my cousin. He's a little off, but he's harmless. I'll take care of it. I then also stop caring because I assume you're going to take care of it. You're all set. Like I assume there is a line of social responsibility. People that are too scared to do it themselves will call the police and the police will come established a line of social responsibility, but there will be, there must be a line of social responsibility established or else you have this not near stomach as a social being with that dude's not playing by the game. And it'll freak you out, right? The problem is, you know, that dominance nonsense like people are like, you got to be the pack leader because dogs are just little pirates or whatever. And if you're not the pack leader, one of them is going to step up and be the pack leader. Like if you're not the alpha, somebody else is going to be the alpha. Right, right. It's like every bit of crap starts with a little kernel of truth. Every every every century starts with a little seed of truth. You know, so it's like, you can, you can use that one. You can have that one. Right? So, but that's the thing is like, they're not wrong in the sense that when they come on the scene and they start hammering every dog on the property, it does tend to stop a lot of fights, but it's not because the alpha nonsense. It's because what they've done is they've shown every dog that there is a line of responsibility to a being. And then they stop trying to establish one of their own. I usually draw like a little triangle on a whiteboard. I put you and then in the two bottom corners, it's the dog on the dog. And I go, you can train with this dog number one and develop this line that that dog believes exists between you and them. They believe they need to down. They believe they need to sit. They believe they need to come and call. They believe they need to leave it or whatever. Right. And you can develop it with the other dog as well. But if dog one can't see dog twos line of responsibility, if they don't get some kind of signal that the dog is responsible in some way, they will then try to establish a line of responsibility between themselves. It's not about being alpha. It's about being safe. Dominance dominance is just a way to become safe. The reason bully is act like that is because it's easier to be a bully than get bully. Like dominance is a tool that you can use to ensure you are safety. And so they're correct in the sense that if it's not that if you don't dominate, they will dominate. It's that if you don't make them feel safe, they will find a way to make them feel safe and they're most natural genetic tool for that is dominance. Right. And so like I want to avoid that. So what I want to do is I want to separate the dogs mechanically. I will put them both in crates. So the first phase of this is the dog is in a crate or on a tether. And the reason that they're on a tether is because if the dog in the crate, the dog in the crate is learning about the flow of a house. Right there learning. So if the dog in the crate is sitting there, minding his business and the dog on the bed, the dog on the couch watching a movie with me decides they're going to start hard staring them and they leap off the couch and nail the front of the kennel and they start fence fighting at the door of the kennel. I have proven to the dog in the kennel. I have no control. That dog is not socially responsible to me in any way shape or form. I've proven to them if you ever get out of that kennel, you better watch your back because this dog is coming high. You know, if I have the dog on a tether, I can be watching the movie and that's weird because people are like, if the dog is in a kennel, why does the other dog need to be on a tether, there's nothing can happen. And I'm like, it's not that they can't make contact. It's that I need to show the dog the line of responsibility. If I'm watching the movie and the dog launches off the couch, hits the end of his line, does a back flip and I go no and then bring him back and put him in a down. What is wrong with you? Don't do that. You do not attack your brother. Okay. The dog in the kennel. I'm not thinking about the value of the correction of the dog hitting the end of his line and being blocked from fence fighting. I'm thinking more about the dog in the crate, seeing that I am on top of it. That's the important lesson. The dog in the crate goes, wow. All right. And instead of posturing to take care of himself goes, yeah, it starts to eventually assume dad's on top of it. I'm not worried about you jumping up and running over here because it's not going to work because dad's caught you every time you've ever tried. Right. So the dog in the crate is watching the flow of the house. And that's where you start to demonstrate a line of social responsibility to the dog in the crate. So there's two crates in the living room. If I can have them side by side, that's beautiful. If I can't because they'll fence fight, then I separate them by a few feet. If I need to make a visual barrier, that's fine. If they need to be on opposite sides of the living room, that's fine. As long as every day, every time I see they've plateaued, they've tolerated one another at this distance, they get closer. Not so close to it. It's like the name game thing. Not so close that they can't break their own orientation. Right. I don't use a mechanism, right. Not so close that they can't break their orientation, but close enough that they notice. Right. Once they stop caring a little closer and a little closer until eventually their kennels are side by side. And the existence of that other dog becomes just monotone. The existence of the other dog is not a trigger. Hearing them eat is not a trigger. Hearing them get up and turn three circles is not a trigger. Hearing the dog scratches collar is not a trigger. Like the existence of the other dog ceases to be a trigger. We have used desensitization to make the other dog, the other dog's presence not a trigger. We still need to work on the other dogs behavior not being a trigger, but their existence is no longer a trigger. Right. The dog in the kennel is in the kennel. The dog out of the kennel is on a tether. And people go, well, how do I know when I can stop using the tether? And I'm like, look, if you have a line of responsibility, you do not need a line of cotton. But if you do not have a line of responsibility, you better have one made out of material. Because if the dog starts to jump off the couch and you can go up and the dog goes, sorry, and sits back down, you've successfully demonstrated that line of responsibility to the dog in the crate. If you go up, the dog goes, screw you and jumps off and starts fence fighting, you've set yourself back because you've proven to the dog in the crate, you have no responsibility. And that's no good, right? So you keep the dog on a tether until you can manage the dog in the house without a tether. Right. And then you're good. So that's one. The next thing I do is all the training occurs in front of the other dogs kennel. So don't take your dog out back into obedience where the dog in the kennel doesn't see it. Because at the first part, just the dog's presence is going to be tricky. The dog in the kennel is going to be like looking like an alligator. It's going to be like stalking at the front thing, watching that other dog walk around. And as long as you block the interaction, they're okay. Eventually, they'll start to get bored with the dog's presence. But then when you get up and you get food out and you start training in front of the dog's crate, the dog in the crate is definitely going to be like, what's going on, right? And again, you've got to play the distance game if you can train two foot in front of their crate. Awesome. If you need to train 50 yards from the crate, great. But you're not done with that level until you can train your dog in front of the other dogs crate. And the dog in the crate is absolutely bored. And bored. Just to be clear here, when you're talking training in your world, that means you're probably doing drive-you-work with tug or something like that. Yeah, I will try to keep, so I generally will start with lower level stuff. Like I'll use food, but I won't go into super drive type of play only because it will be difficult for the dog in the crate. Or I can do personal play and a bunch of conditioner relaxation, place work. Stuff that's like lower arousal level things. Because again, you want to set the dog up for success. And that training session, while it is good reps for the dog that is being trained, the major point of that training session is not the dog being trained. The major point of that training session is the dog in the crate. Watching me go up, back on your place board and the dog going, yes sir, and getting back on the place board. I'm demonstrating social control to the dog in the crate through that training session. Right. The dog in the crate is the dog that is doing the learning, not the dog that's out. I'm using the dog that's out to teach the dog in the crate the lessons. Sure, sure. But the lessons are the demonstration of social responsibility. And then they're like, all right, cool. Once they're abjectly bored with watching the other dog in front of the crate, like if I train this dog for 15 minutes and then put him up, take the other dog out, train him for 15 minutes. And both dogs are just like, I'm bored with this. This does not matter at all. I barely look up from my sleeping position to watch you do this nonsense. Then I'm going to go, okay, cool. Now we're going to train in drive and start to be more exciting. Now you might have to back up 10, 20 feet or whatever. You have to play that orientation game a little bit. But I'm going to train in drive. Once I can train in drive and the dog in the crate is bored, I've taught this dog not to be aroused by the dog's presence, not to be aroused by the dog's movement, that I can control the dog both at moments of liberty in training scenarios and even in drive. Even when the dog's going, on a tug toy, I can go out easy and the dog listens to me. That is building a tremendous amount of confidence in the dog in the crate watching you train the dog out. That's the missing piece that literally nobody ever thinks about is the dog watching from the crate is the target lesson. The dog out being worked is just the lesson the dog in the crate is watching. If that makes sense. It makes perfect sense. So we do that. Once the dog has a pretty good solid place command and is also like me, like not that impressed with the other dog doing training. Now instead of doing it in a crate, I'm going to do it on place. So dog one, instead of being in the crate watching me train is now on place watching me train. And this just got difficult. And obviously, dude, use back ties like people doing this. Don't be a hero. If you don't have a helper, use back and check your gear. Don't use chancy stuff if you're talking about murder dogs like you's real gear. So I'll back tie the dog on place. The dog is on place. If he jumps off, he's going to get caught by the back tie. Not restrained on place with the back tie, but will be stopped before he gets to me by the back tie and gives me a chance to go put him back on place. So like they can get two feet off the. Yeah, they can get off the place board, but they can't go anywhere. I don't want the line making them be on the place board. I want their social responsibility making them be on the place board. I want the line keeping them from getting to me if they choose to break. Got it. So I put one dog on place and I train the other dog. This is more difficult for two reasons. One, instead of being in your crate and just sitting there, you are now doing training by being on your place board. Because even though you have a lot of options on your place board, there are still some decisions you can't make. So they're having a bit of impulse control instead of just being accepting the fact that they're shut in a crate. They're having to cooperate with being on a place board. And that's training. Right? So one, instead of training for 15 minutes, watching inside the crate and then doing 15 minutes of work, you're now doing 30 minutes of work because it's a 15 minute place and then 15 minutes of work. So the dog is getting more work, more responsibility. But then also the dog believes that you're keeping them safe because the crate also keeps them safe. Like they know the dog can't get to them. They know that even if you're an idiot and you go through and drop the leash, the crate's going to save them. But when they're on place, they have to have a certain amount of okay, I trust you to not let that dog come over here. And that's the training. The training is again, not the dog doing the obedience. The training is the dog on place trusting you to handle the dog doing the obedience. And in a crate, they don't have to trust you, but when they're on place, they must trust you because if they don't believe that that line of social responsibility exists, they're going to put up themselves to protect themselves. They're going to establish a line of responsibility on their own. And so that's the next step. So when the dog is bored with watching the flow of the house, you start training in front of the crate when they're bored with training in front of the crate, you start training in front of place. Once they're bored with that, and you can play a raucous game of tug, and the dogs just like on the on the place board, like I don't care, doesn't bother me at all. Then we're going to go into Liberty while one dog is on place. And again, if you need a helper, use a helper. If you don't have the helper, you're going to have to be creative with your use of back ties because you must have a back tie on the dog at Liberty that lets him go everywhere visible, except up to this dog. And I can draw a line in the sand and see this is where Fido ends. And then I have the dog on place who can do it every once on place, but if he gets off the place board, and there's got to be a good couple feet between those lines, they can't be the same line. There's got to be a little buffer space in between. In case everything in the world jumps off, and you just go failed rep and you have to walk up and pick one dog up, take a put him and go pick the other dog up. They can't make content. So if you have to be creative with your use to back ties, do that. But don't allow the possibility of a screw up. So make sure you don't let him hit the crack plate. But one dog is on place and the other dog is at Liberty. Now I'm going to control that dog at Liberty because it's crazy when people see dogs working, they think a dog at Liberty will be easier to tolerate than a dog and obedience even drive, but it's not. A dog at Liberty is scarier to a dog on place than a dog being done through obedience. Because once they believe that when the dog is being told sit down, stay and come heal whatever the dog's going to be locked in behavior, they trust you locking them into behavior to make them safe. But once they see the dog just doing whatever the hell it wants, then they're like, if he can do whatever it wants, then it can come over here. Now I'm like, all right, here we go, the moment of truth. And that's where you have to prove to the dog you can intervene in Liberty and affect the dog. When the dog starts looking, you got to be able to say, look and have the dog look at you instead. That's not for the dog doing the look command. That's for the dog on the place to see you did it. When the dog starts jumping around and spinning and doing zoomies and the zoomies make the dog on place nervous, you have to be able to look at the dog doing zoomies and go fight them easy and have fight us stop doing zoomies. Again, that's not for the dog doing the zoomies. That's for the dog on the place going, oh, you can stop him from doing zoomies with a word. That's extremely important for the dog to believe in your ability to control the other dog. If the dog starts to walk up to the thing, you can recall them, you can say, leave it, you can say enough and you show the dog on the place board that you can control that yard. Again, you do that both. Both dogs can be at Liberty, both dogs can be on place. Already, that is the level of management that most people go, "Woo!" and stop. Most people stop it under orders on place because once they can put a dog on place, they can put both dogs on place and have dinner, they're all set. Or even one dog on place, one dog loose and we're watching the movie and I just enforce place command and force the other dog not messing with the place board. They're just like we're done, but you can go further. It's just the next jump is the one that's not scary for people, but it takes work. We're already at a point of management where most people would consider that situation fixed, but I don't feel like we're done. You've got to teach them how to be at Liberty around one another. That gets into a trick and there's some things that you need in place before you ever try to do that. To me, there's some things that you need to have in place. I need non-adrenaline zones set up throughout the house. So I need the couch to be a no-place them. And people go, "How do you teach that?" I teach that to the dog on the tether, back in phase one. I teach that to the dog on the tether, who is rolling around and playing, and it's all cool, jumps up on the couch and tries to do it, and I go, "Aha, easy." And if they don't know what that means, you gotta teach 'em, but once they know what it means, you either enforce easy on the couch, or you go, "Aha, and push 'em off the couch." And they'll like jump back on the couch and you go, "Aha, easy." They don't, you go, "Aha, push 'em off the couch." And if they wanna do Zoomy, they'll do Zoomy's down there. But if they get on the couch, they must be easy. And this is really important because dog fights happen in bad communication. One dog's over aroused and wants to play, and wants to do stuff, and the other dog wants to say no, and the only way they have to say no is by going, "Aha, and then the other dog goes, "What the hell'd you just say to me?" And then the fight jumps off. If the dog can jump on the couch and knows that on the couch, there will be no play, you've provided them away to ask for a deceleration that doesn't involve threats of violence. And if they can ask for a deceleration, then we're set. That's all we need, you know what I mean? So anyway, teach the dog that there's deceleration zones. So out in my yard, I'll put up like one of those spools. So the dog can jump up on the spool, or I'll build a box, so the dog can jump up on the box, and that's a deceleration zone. For me, in my own yard, my porch is a deceleration zone. So other people have had them put spools out on the yard, so the dog can jump up on the thing and ask for help. I teach dogs that middle is a safe place. When a dog gets in between my legs, I will repel all other beings while the dog is between my legs to show them that they can come get in there and ask for assistance. So if I'm out on the yard, one of my dogs goes into middle, I know they want space, and I repel the other dogs. And then that dog has found a way to, without throwing out a violence, get some space for itself. So they can go get on the porch, or they can get between my legs, whichever is closer. But I taught safe deceleration places to the dog before I introduced the other dog. You need some basic commands. You need easy enough, leave it, come down. If I don't have those things, I can't orchestrate the song to my liking. If the dogs are over a rouse, and I think it's about to make one of them want to ask for a deceleration, again, the only way they have to ask for that's with their teeth, then I can go easy and cue easy, and everybody on the yard chills, now we don't have a fight. But it's only because everybody on the yard won, got easy when I said it, and also trusted that everyone else would also. It's like if you're boxing, and we're both sparring, and then somebody rings the bell, if I know 100%, I've watched you immediately stop boxing at the end of every bell. When the bell rings, we'll both just stop immediately, right? But if I've watched you throw punches after the bell, the bell rings, I look like I'm a jerk, because I don't stop fighting after the bell. Either, because I know you're not gonna listen to the stupid bell. Like, how can I stop if you don't stop, right? So on the yard, if I go easy or enough, and I've rung the bell to make the round stop, the only way it works is if every other dog believes every other dog is gonna stop, if there's any doubt that anybody's gonna keep going after the bell, it'll make everybody keep going after the bell, and then there's no bell, your bell is meaningless, you know what I mean? So yeah, I gotta have easy enough leave it. So like if a dog is laying down, and my dog walks up and is gonna pester them while they're laying down, if I can't go fight a leave it and make him come away from the dog that's laying down, the dog that's laying down is gonna have to do something to make him go away, and the problem is, with murder dogs, if you start to negotiate, they just go downhill and kill one another. So if my dog is laying down, and every time dog one walks up to dog two that's laying down, I say leave it, and I do this repeatedly and consistently. Eventually, that dog is gonna stop pestering dogs that are laying down, and I have now given the dog that's laying down a signal that they can do. They know that if they lay down, they're gonna get left alone. And now they have a calming signal like we talked in the beginning about a polaroid of a guy's face that says uncomfortable. Now the kid knows a crap I'm making you uncomfortable. So like I can teach communication and body language to these dogs that don't have a natural aptitude for it, but I've gotta do it through repetition and cubility, you know? I would say get a muzzle during these situations. You can do it without, of course, but a muzzle is easier (laughs) 'cause it makes it wear if there's a jump off, you are safe and can calmly take your time and resolve it. You don't have to go like, oh my God, emergency mode and freak out 'cause dogs are bleeding. To the point of a muzzle, make sure, I'm sure I'm jumping all over the place, you can ask me questions in the second, I was gonna get rid of this. In a muzzle, don't just muzzle condition the beginning of the muzzle. People do the, you know, snout in the muzzle, click feed, snout in the muzzle, click feed, and they stop at conditioning the act of putting it on, but they don't condition the act of wearing it long-term. And dogs paw at muzzles incessantly and they don't paw at collars. They don't paw at jewelry, the idea of wearing something, they don't freak out about that. They freak out about being blocked. So the reason they don't mess with the collar after a couple of minutes is to like, well, whatever, it's stupid, but it doesn't get in my way and they leave it alone. Muzzles block them from things and they eventually start to get pissed at being blocked and they try to get the muzzle off. So I like to train with a false muzzle, take a muzzle and cut like a basket of the muzzle and cut the front bars off so they can access things or take a basket muzzle and cut it like Pac-Man so when they open their mouth, the muzzle opens. And you have a false muzzle. Now that won't work for safety, but again, in the first phase where we're teaching the dog tether for the dog inside the crate, it's also a beautiful time to teach muzzle acclimation. Teach them how to put the muzzle on like everybody else does, but then it goes fake muzzle on, fake muzzle on, fake muzzle on, fake muzzle off. Then you leave the fake muzzle on and play tub or do your obedience routine where you're feeding them while they're wearing the fake muzzle. And the dog stops believing that this thing is this immediate source of just pissed off frustration all the time and worse, you can counter-condition a dog to know to put up with a muzzle. Because if you condition the dog to a muzzle and then you go muzzle, male man, muzzle, male man, eventually you put the muzzle on and the dog's like, where's he at? And they get all pumped. Oh, they get all pumped. Almost did it. They get all pumped, right? So it's like you can actually condition the muzzle to be the get ready to go. - Sick, right. - You know what I mean? So if they have a muzzle on in the yard for two hours at a time, they can play fetch with it, they can lick their butt with it, they can eat food with it, they don't care. It becomes just another piece of jewelry like a collar. And then in the 10 minutes that you're gonna practice liberty with the two dogs, 'cause they've been trained up to that point, they're ready to give it a shot. I can go false muzzle on, play, play, play. False muzzle off, real muzzle on, let them go be at liberty. And they're not gonna have that like this thing blocks me, this thing upsets me, 'cause they can sit around for hours on end with the fake muzzle on and have no sense of blockage whatsoever. And then of course once they get done, don't just take the muzzle off, 'cause you don't wanna condition muzzle means bad dog comes out, take the fake muzzle off, fake muzzle on, fake muzzle off, fake muzzle on, now they get to hang out with the fake muzzle on. They don't act, they don't acknowledge a difference between the real muzzle and fake muzzle and they won't know there's a blockage until they make a jump. So that's the long and short of it. I mean, you know what I mean? I'm sure there's questions to ask and things that we can pick apart, but that's the basic idea is understand the importance of that social responsibility and you're proving it to the dog, you're proving social responsibility through obedience, through dog ones obedience, you're proving social responsibility to dog too. That concept is a keystone of this. Then the idea that you've got to teach them how to handle and how to have ways to decelerate that they believe in because both of those things are going to combine. When you try to let the dogs become liberated together, they're going to have to know that they can ask for a break on their own without you and they're going to have to know that you can control a situation if you start to interject. They believe that when you ring the bell, everybody's going to stop because if they don't believe that, no one will stop and that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. - No, I think that's a great analogy too and the bell analogy is great for people who are involved in any kind of combat sports. It's an interesting point too and we can tie that back into what we're talking about here with the dogs, right? This goes into part of what you're doing, is it's not just getting them to tolerate the other dog but to be comfortable with the other dog and feel safer on the other dog, right? And so one question I wanted to ask early on, when you're talking about just the first phase You're training them in front of each other and having them created next to each other. And of course, you're moving the crates closer and closer as they can handle it. Now, one thing that you didn't say, but I'm sure as part of it, I certainly as part of it when I do it, is if you move those crates closer and closer and they're getting long for a week or so and then one day they're fensifying again, you're gonna move those crates again. You're not gonna let them practice that behavior, right? You're gonna, I'm going to stop it. I'm going to stop it. Okay, no, yes and no. Yes, in the sense that obviously, if something has happened and we've got to set back, we need to change the criteria. But I cannot let the dog know that them blowing up, push that crate away. - Sure, sure, sure. - Because then we're gonna have a real problem. Then they're gonna go, "Hey, how about even further?" "Bah, how about even further?" "How about I do this more?" "Maybe you get rid of the dog." "Bah." If anything, they can't think, they cannot believe that their aggression solves that problem. - Agreed 100%. - So they're gonna blow up and if they blow up, I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna stop it and whatever my method of doing that is, like I don't beat the shit out of dogs, I'm not gonna freak out. Even if it is, even if it is, take them because it's now an emergency, separate them, I'm going to very quickly bring them back and down them in at least that same proximity and then put them back in their crates in that same proximity and show them like this is not, that did not work. Your violence did not cause the result you wanted it to cause. It did not. Then later that day, I'm gonna take one out and you're gonna take one out, we're gonna move their crates a little bit further. - Right, right, yeah. - And it just happened to happen. Hey, look at that. - Right, yeah. - I think it's a real good distinction. So I appreciate you cleaning it up. - Yeah, that's the, you know what I mean? And that's the real problem is people don't understand like violence is, most dogs and aunts are so past. Violence is a tool, you know? And then it's like, if the tool works, it's very hard. Like the response to failure in something that has been heavily reinforced is persistence. - Right. - So every time it works, you're making them more and more persistent. - Sure. And I gotta break that. I gotta make the failure rate go up. Like they can't get what they want from violence. They can't happen. But that said, before I moved the crate away, I would try to, because if they have been fine for a week, it's like layered stress moment. If they've been fine for a week and then they popped off today, it's not the proximity that changed. Do you know what I'm saying? If they're 10 feet apart and then today, nine feet and it's more or eight feet, and then the next day we go seven feet and they trip and we go back to seven and a half feet and they're okay, it was the proximity. But if they're at five feet for four days and then there's a jump off, it's not the five feet that's a problem. - Right. - Something happened. - Right. - Was it the unexpected noise that happened behind me? Because if that's the case, then I've got to try to manage my sound management better, because when you're defusing a bomb, you don't want somebody to pop a balloon. (laughing) And you're like, I got to deal with that. Not forever eventually, they should be responsible enough to tolerate those sorts of things. - Sure. - But right now when you're defusing a bomb, don't cough real out, you know? - Right. - Is it, was one dog, did they just randomly catch eyes and get stuck on the eye magnet? Because if that's the case, I just got one, put up a visual barrier so they can't lock eyes or like a screen, like a partial visual barrier to manage it better if I see it go, hey, look and then they both look at me, I broke it off. I can, you know, have a long line attached to the crate. (laughing) That's the correction I use on dogs and crates. - Cool. - Yeah, that's okay. - I've told you about it. - No, I haven't, but I mean, visualize it pretty well. - Yeah, like people are like, yeah, I put a log, a prong collar on a long line. I'm like, nah, just put the long line on the crate. - Yeah. - I'll shake the baby in a heartbeat. (laughing) You know, the dog starts eyeballing, no. Boom, and I'll pop the crate. Not the dog. And the dog shoots the holy, what the hell? And you're like, hey, don't do that. - Yeah, no, I like it. - I like it. - It is, what's funny is it's still a correction. - Mm-hmm. - It's still a punishment. - Sure. - But it doesn't feel the same as cracking the dog. And I don't know why it feels inherently more fair and less abusive, but it was. - Well, I think from the dog's point of view, it's an environmental change, not an attack on them. So you have a dog who's in the crate, who's getting all, you know, squirrely and think about going violent. You apply violence to their neck and their reaction is likely to be, hey, let's go. But when the earthquake starts, people don't, people don't generally, in an earthquake, don't go, hey, you attacking me, bro. Like they, there was one time, there was this big old fight, one time, I was like, it had to be 20 of this. And it was in a parking lot and it looked like a bad concert. I mean, it was a big old fight. And a transformer blue on a telephone pole. - Mm-hmm. - And just, like, I don't know if you've ever seen one of those, but it looks like lava. Like, fire was all, like, nobody kept fighting. I'm pretty committed. And I was like, it was like the weirdest photograph. It was like, at that moment, there were pictures of you still holding one another with their fist caught back, both looking at the same thing. (laughing) Like, whoa, look at that, that's fire, you know? - Yeah. - Yeah, it's not an attack on their person, but it's a distraction. - Yeah, exactly. And I think that's a huge difference. Like, and that's something that people don't talk about enough when it comes to, especially the more game dogs is that that, when that dog is on a hair trigger. - Yep. - So it's very easy to pull that hair trigger. - Yeah. - And I think that was a mistake I made very early on in my socialization career was trying to be too physical when dogs were like, you know, eyeball on each other. And in that frozen state that, you know, that first level conflict resolution, how's this gonna go? They're in orientation, they're frozen. And I would go, hey, knock it off. And they would, boom, yeah, they go, oh yes, we're gonna do that. And so learning how to gently go, come on, let's go and not shake that little nitroglycerin capsule inside that dog. - So there's a couple little corrections on crate dogs like that. The long line on a crate is good. And so it's stupid, but like get a E-collar with a vibrate button and put it in a dish with chain. - Yeah. - The top of the crate. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - Dog's like, what? - No, that's a good one. That's a good one. Yes. - Stupid little chicks, stupid little chicks, but it's like, anyway. Anything to break the orientation? - I can't just go, hey, if you're looking at 'em, I'll make 'em go in. Or hey, if you're violent, I'll make 'em go in. - Sure. - I can't do that. I've gotta teach them that violence does not solve the problem. - Yeah, no, I think that's great. The other thing I really like is your muzzle protocol talking about that. I think that was something that I think a lot of people, I know that I have personally struggled a bit with that transition from just wearing it for a short period of time to wearing it for a long period of time. I've just made the dog gut it out. It's like, okay, we did, we're now, now you're gonna put it on, and we're gonna wear it for 10 seconds now, instead of two seconds, and then we're gonna do for 15. And it never goes really smoothly. And when you first talked about this, 'cause I saw the same video you saw about the guy doing that, and someone showed it to me. - Well, I got that video from Pat, I'd never heard about it until I've been told me about it, and I've been told me about it from the sense it was reversed. 'Cause I do everything, what I do is I find fighting things and reversed. - Right. - I reverse it in January's stuff. So like in a personal protection dog, if you have a personal protection dog and you have them in a muzzle, you don't want them to feel like they are defenseless when they're in their muzzle. - Right. - Because then you don't want a dog going like, oh no, I don't have my weapon, really, oh no, you know what I mean? So like he puts dogs in the false muzzle and does bite work so they don't feel like they're blocked. Like they still feel powerful. It's so the muzzle is not like, oh man, I can't, I'm not, I'm weak now, you know? And I was like, I'm gonna use that in reverse. (laughs) That's awesome. That is wonderful, dude, that's great, you know? - Well, you know, when I first heard about, like someone had shown me that video before. And I immediately, my mind, I immediately goes to, I'm a bit of a pessimist this way, but when somebody shows me a new training technique, my mind immediately goes to what are the potential problems with this? - Sure. - Right? And so my first thought was, I don't think that's gonna work. And the reason why is the muzzle, the part of the muzzle that frustrates the dog is as you pointed out, it changes their physical capabilities. And letting them wear a muzzle, it doesn't change their physical capabilities to me. We left the concern that we still have to have that moment when we change the physical characteristics and is that going to affect them? It's the same reason why I've never been a big fan of training aggressive dogs with muzzles anyway, because every time I've done that, the moment I take the muzzle off, I've still got that gut check. Like has he been not trying to bite me because he knows he can't? Or has he not been trying to bite me because he's accepted the fact that I'm not something someone he needs to bite? - Yeah. - But you've been practicing for a while now when it's work, so I can remove that doubt from my-- - It's also just like the condition, the motion response, like a person, a person who you get along with really well, 95% of the time, but then there's that 5% of the time they go into that annoying-ass conversation about that stupid show that they like or their dumbass political view, and you're like, "Uh, when we go here, I just can't stand you." That person is a different condition of emotional response than the person that every time they open their face, it's just in fear. Those are two different dudes. And yes, when the dog is wearing the real muzzle and tries to do something and goes, "Wait a minute, I can't use my mouth, we're gonna have to deal with it." But that's like the time when they start talking about politics and they don't always talk about politics. It's super annoying, but it's tolerable because it's infrequent. As opposed to as soon as the muzzle goes on, they're just at their limit of "I hate this stupid thing." And also, who are you bringing out? Because you only put this on me when you bring out the evil thing. I think the condition of emotional response that you get is much, much better. Yeah, all right. I think you hit all the major points. I can't think of any questions that I want to add to it. I'm sure some of our listeners may put some questions up on the discussion group. Yeah, I'll respond if you guys put stuff up. I'll respond. I didn't like write it, but bullet point thing is just separate the mechanically but not socially. First, teach them that the existence of the other dog is not a trigger. Tether and create. Create and rotate, but tether the dog and so you can prove to the dog in the crate that they're as responsible with the tether off as they are on. And then train in front of the crate until they're bored and then train in front of place until they're bored and then train in drive until they're bored. During that process, you working on all your commands, leave it enough, come down, stay, place, whatever. Look, all those words that you're going to use to orchestrate the yard later on, training them in the muzzle. You train those words and skills and tolerances, training the safe places in the house, training the safe place between your legs. You train all of those things during those early phases. So then when it's time, you have dog on place, dog on liberty. And then you have to manage, practice your management, one dog is secure, one dog is at liberty and rotate until they're bored. Then once both of them are bored with both dogs, both dogs are bored with I'm on place, that dog's free and they trust you and they trust the gear and they trust all the things. Then we're going to do moments of liberty while they're both together, but you manage and they're wearing muzzles and you're managing and you're doing your thing. And then you do that for just a minute, like they might be on the place and liberty phase. And then I'll do like for I remember we were for about four months, we pretty quickly got to one dog on place, one dog at liberty, pretty quickly. Well, we were there for about four or five months and it's like one dog would be on the on the couch next to me in a place command like on a positional hold on the couch and the other dog is walking around the house. No issues. But when we get to the point where both dogs are walking around the house, I would do it at very specific times. I do it in the morning when nobody else was awake, the mailman's not going to come. There's no alarm clock about to go off and I know I've got a 30 minute stretch of just dead. And that's when we would do it for about five minutes and then I would good work guys and one of them would go back to place and we'd go back to the safe spot. And then we would do that and then it went from five minutes to 30 minutes and then eventually it was. They're both at liberty until we're about to do dinner and then ones got to be on or they both have to be on place or we got to go back to the management during this or I know that the school bus and the mailman come between two and four so between two and four were managing. You know what I mean like after 11 p.m. where's liberty but before 11 p.m. though and then you just eventually reduce those times as they learn how to tolerate the spikes. You reduce those times until now they're never in their crates. That's awesome. That's awesome. All right. That's what it is. Sweet thanks for coming on. What you got coming up. What you guys workshops coming up. You got. You're not prepared. I mean I'm going to be in May. I'm going to be like I guess that's coming right up. Huh. March April May Holy crap yet coming right up in in May. I'm going to be in Utah. I'm doing a week of seminars on Heather backs place. We're going to do some events out there. There's a ton of GRC stuff. The events calendars getting packed. It's pretty cool. In September. I'm going to be a ICP doing a presentation on Flexi leads. Yeah. Factual issues. I'm going to make people pull their eyeballs out. No, it's awesome. I love the fact that you're challenging people on that on that assumption right there. It's so much fun. Can you imagine the conversations are going to happen afterwards people are just going to be. I broke out today. This girl has been staying here training. She's been here for about a week now. And she's got two dogs and she runs them at the same time. We've been doing about training and today I broke out the retractable. That is the double. Uh huh. The slow. Two retractables and it spins. I walked out with that and she just. Just shook her head. And I was like, what it was like your thing. She was like, you know, honestly, I knew that I was going to be challenged in the stuff you're asking me to do. She was like, but I honestly didn't even picture you bringing one. She's like, I didn't even know that it existed. That's how you're comfort zone double. But it's right. It dogs are cool. So yeah, I'm doing an I see a September on retractable and then big. inaugural championship national championship here for JSC in November. Yeah, a bunch of stuff, man. All kinds of cool stuff. You look JSC dog sports on Facebook or JSC dog sports calm. Whatever. It's around you can find me. I have stuff happening. Google me, bro. All right, man. Well, I appreciate you coming in sit down with us. I think this is going to be one of the more valuable episodes that I put together so far. And I'm glad you came in. All right. Well, um, I guess that's it. Everybody will see you all later. Thanks for listening guys. I appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for being here. All right, dude. I will talk to you like in 20 minutes. I'll see you. All right.