Episode 22: Green Energy, The Milk Crisis… and Farmers Losing Thousands a Day

[Music] This camera gets my best angle every time. It does. It really does. Right, get the one key on. It's actually not that cold. It's the radiator. Yeah, but I just like being all kind of cushy and. I do. I do. I think we need to put the legs down maybe. We're sitting to be. Hold on, bouncing today. Hold on, do we usually keep those big spotlights on? Yeah. Do it. Yeah. Of course we do! [Laughter] It's like nighttime recording. Oh no, that's almost like a bedtime story. Oh my god, stop it. We could read bedtime stories. The animal welfare bill. That would say "dutusly". Um, right, Charlotte, let's get into it. I don't even know what episode we're on. Oh, that's 22. 22. What is new? It's raining, it's miserable, nothing's changed. We're at the end of January. I'm so pleased. Oh, it's been a long January. It's been stressful, yeah. I'm ready for it to be over. I'm ready for spring. I'm ready to start seeing daffodils and bulbs coming up. We've got many drops. I'm ready to put pigeon to start making noises in the garden and thinking, "Oh, I'm lying here in the morning. Spring's coming. It's on its way." Do you know one thing that I, like, I know sheep don't love being in the rain and whatever, but they just kind of stand it. My hands hate the rain. They look so miserable. I've got before Pinkton's, if you don't know what they are, they are big, fluffy, amazing. But their fluff is quite low to the ground. So they just get wet. I've got some bramas which have fluffy, feathered feet. And I'm just, and also they're, they're completely free range so actually they do spend a lot of time in, in the shed. Like in the straw shed, for example, they're dry, but they just look so bloomin' miserable. Meanwhile, I have one hand with one wing. One wing. Yeah, years ago. She's years old. I don't know this. She was taken, yes, she was, I think a fox tried to get her. Either that or Peggy. But I'm sure it was a fox. Wonder the fox. Well, blend the fox. And I found her in the morning with, like, I'm so blood everywhere. And she was on his side. And I thought, "Oh my goodness. This poor hen, yes, she ended up a wing. Her wing was taken off. I never found the wing." And yeah, I thought, "Oh, it'll die. It'll die." It'll die. No, no, no. I nursed about to health. And she's now the most healthy, unegling chicken. Of course. Just lauding it over the cow. She walks along the feed fence, picking the cows noses away to get the feed. Stop. Oh, she knows what she's doing. We had one which, it hadn't gone to bed for, usually, if you don't have hens, when you first get them, you close them into the hut or the run or whatever that you were wanting to keep them in. And then if you're having them completely free range like ours are, after three, four, five days, they know that that's their home. So you let them out. They'll wander around all day, and they'll take themselves back to bed, which is quite something when apparently we're told hens are so stupid. Well, anyway, this one was stupid, proving the point. She didn't go to bed. Anyway. It had, it was, we'd gone out in the dark for some reason. And I can't remember whether we'd maybe counted them in the hut and thought there's one missing or, anyway, just walking across this field and there was this kind of dark shadowy lump. Anyway, it was this hen. She'd obviously been half-court by the fox. Oh, no! And had a chunk taken out of her back. And so the trauma unit ensued. She's brought inside, wound flushed out. She's got creams on. She's got a spray on it. Anyway, well, she's died now. This was a long time ago. But just her back to health as well. And what? We are a bit. Oh, no, we're not so. No, we just care. Really? As is not a productive animal. She just. Lords around the place. Yeah, she actually, you know what? I'm quite fond of the hen. Oh, I quite. You know what? I'm like with my hen. She's around everywhere. Well, one of yours never got squashed by a bale, didn't it? Oh, my God. This is. This is trauma. I actually. It takes quite a lot to make me cry. I did have a few tears. So. Well, she was hiding in a really stupid place. Oh, yeah, she'd managed to squeeze in between some bales. And I knew that they were laying there. So why was gathering the eggs every day? They'd go in lay and whatever. Anyway, my dad. This is not blaming my dad. But he was at the helm of the loader. And he went to grab some straw. And in grabbing a couple of the bales, you know, just pushed the bales in. Um, unbeknown to him, you know, he's not obviously aware of every hen and it's whereabouts in the tragic way that I am. Anyway, so this hen had obviously been laying her eggs, whatever. And. He squashed her. He squashed her. So then, I obviously next day or whatever went to gather the eggs. Where's my hen? And I was like, I swear the gap was there. So the gap was in between, you know, bales one and two, not bales. I was looking up and down this stack and I was like, shit, shit. Anyway, I got the dog and I was like, Ralph, because I thought, what happens if she's there? I was like, Ralph, find Lemmy. She obviously has a name. Find Lemmy, find Lemmy. She's a Lemmon-pile-brammer. Okay, got it, got it, got it, got it. Makes sense. Anyway, he found her. And then I'm there, like beside myself. I'm crying. Screaming sprinting in. You've killed Lemmy, you've killed Lemmy. And I, I didn't have any load of keys in my pocket, so I was like, you've killed it. Anyway, you would not believe it. The bales have been squished together just enough that she can't get out and she was a bit like, you know, like squashed. Yeah, she was a bit, anyway. Absolutely fine. Went on to be broody, she's got a couple of chips. What about her eggs? The eggs weren't really, they weren't salvageable. No, no. But she was. She lived at the tail. See, her hands are stronger than you think. But why was I crying about her head? She was. She just admitted that to her. Right, Charlotte, should we get. Just admitted that to lots of people. We have lots of listeners, do you know that? It's quite something, isn't it? It's crazy. Yeah. And it's rolling on, it's good. What I find fascinating, but we're getting listeners without the click baity. And, which is a bit that I'm enjoying, that I don't have to get my kit off, or we're not saying the most controversial stuff to then, yes, if we do a reel, we want you to watch the reel and think. It's about listening to the episode or whatever. But we actually haven't been so good on our. But we are now, we're linked up with BKT and Kirby Tires. Obviously, we're going to be posting more social media. And just getting on board with that full kind of package of catching people who want to watch a reel on Instagram. People who want to listen to a podcast episode. Plus, people who want to watch the full thing on YouTube as well. So, the YouTube videos are doing delightfully well at the time. Well, it's very surprised. Yeah, it's nice. I can't really believe people. Like, I thought YouTube was action-action, tractors, tractors. I never thought that, you know, thousands of people would sit down and watch. Watch or sat here. Do you know what I was. Not moving. Just talking. I was thinking, though, it's perhaps people who were doing some bits and bobs on their laptop. And it's easier just to click into YouTube on the computer than maybe if they don't have Spotify or whatever. Well, I must admit, I watch Cammy's Fed by Farmers YouTube videos. Yeah, not listen to them. I don't listen to the mom's Spotify. That's interesting. I know I watched them on YouTube. That is interesting. What I also find interesting. We're still getting listens on episode one. People are still. everd it well, hopefully they're still commenting on episode one. Yeah, it's quite something really, isn't it? But anyway, right, let's get into it. Solar powers. Solar powers. This is an article that we found and it was talking about sheep farmers grazing under solar panels. Now, solar panels don't particularly have a good. Well, particularly when they're taking up swathes of agricultural land, solar panels have had pretty bad press. Well, there must be a big solar farm coming around here because we've just had a letter. Yeah, you sent that letter. I wish I brought it in. It basically said we have identified some of your land for a solar. It's near one of our. What's going to be one of our current. I'm presuming they've put planning in for a solar farm somewhere that I've not noticed. And they've gone to their capacity. How interesting. Well, this. Obviously answers, no. Well, then again, why should it be no? Do you remember when we spoke at Ludlow Races? Yes. And we'll kind of talk about the future of farming, really a big topic. But I can't quite remember how we got onto it. But I think I said something along the lines of. if you say yes to a solar farm or a solar development or housing, to keep your farm going or basically to get out of farming and to give you some money, we can't blame people for doing that. No shame in it. Anyway, somebody came up to me afterwards and said, "That's what we've done. We had to do it. We were pushed to do it by the state of farming." It's not something we'd have wanted to farm every acre of our land for the rest of our lives. But it's like everyone who jumped into the SFI things and all of the. you know, when they gave all their farm over to whatever nature, wildfire, bird seed mix, things. Were we to blame them? You'd be enough with money. Yes. Why would you not take it? Yeah. And to have a life which. You know, it's a driving up here. I mean, it was open, like all the Harrison's said at the time. The time was open to everyone. You could have done the same. Yeah. Driving up here, sideways rain, fog and clouds. Staying in it. Yeah, it grim. And there was a farmer feeding their sheep, you know, that classic image. But couldn't even see their face. They've got hood up, water proofs on, leggings on, wear these on. You know, I know we say that you can get some good water over the rest of it. But let me tell you, if you've been now in that driving rain for. You know, you will be wet down to your skin. You don't warm up for basically days. And you think, who are we to blame farmers for going down a different income stream route? When actually farming isn't paying the bills. It's zapping your life away. It ages you mentally, physically. It ages your relationship. It puts strain on family situations. You can't. You know, and also then that's before you even add in the inheritance tax side of things. And then you can get a good accession if there's family members beyond the farm who almost want their share of the farm and the farm can't be split up. There's so many factors which mean that. We have very much had this conversation recently as people were no rosedad died on Boxing Day, which was. It's pretty funny. Yeah. It was an absolute kick in the gut. And we have said we were looking at putting a third row by it. We were like, let's play one. Let's get more cows. And we're like, man. You already basically don't have a life. And the days you spend off the farm, my choice working double time and you're out trying to earn extra income doing some of the speaking events. We've never been on holiday. The last time we went on holiday I think was like 2014. We went to Spain with Jane Reign. No, it didn't. We went to Spain with Jane. We did. Jane and June and Anna when she was a baby, me and Roy and we went to Spain. We got a little villa. That was last time we went on holiday. 2014 for three days. What pisses me off is people say, oh, well, you went to the farmer's garden in a ward. That was on holiday and it's like, no, it's not because part of the reason that. That night out, geez. Yeah. And also some of the reason that you're there is also farmer's garden. You want to have an interview with you and get some footage or whatever. There's a pile of things as well. The fact that we've been invited. Yeah. But it's not a holiday. It actually, it does wind me up just because. Listen, I won't be paying to go to no offence to farmers weekly but I won't be paying to go. It's bloody expensive. But just because you leave the farm does not mean it's a holiday and it's a break from what's going on. But we've had such a good time but God they've missed out. Yeah. You've got space, fresh air, good food, outdoors, animals, things which a lot of people would give so much for. But you also do not have the luxury of time and freedom at all. Yeah. And even going out somewhere for a meal was, you know, it's the stress of. You've got to get work to get early in the high-tune shower. It's an anxiety to know that. Right, I've got to get done early tonight and I've got to do this and I've got to do that. Oh my God, I've not done the cars. And sadly that just is the way that me and Roy are built. We are very much that heightened up there kind of people. We can't help it. It's just who we are. And to get anywhere it is no deal. Yes. And maybe it does work for some people, we do feel, yeah, it has been an eye-opener couple weeks. We've definitely re-evaluated how far we want to push ourselves. I mean God weighs 42 is he? Yeah. And 37. You're not getting any to say it. I'm not 25 anymore. Yeah, it's really important. And actually, I think you do see some sad instances of. My life is just going to have disappeared. Yeah. And farmers who have worked their bodies to literally nothing, they don't retire because yes, you can say that they don't want to. And some of them don't want to. But there are many farmers who would like to take it slower when they get to 60, 70, 80. Got to be a doctor. So they shouldn't take the solar panel off her. Absolutely. Where they'll, you know, leash your land for God knows how long you still get the. You still get the option to graze underneath it. Yeah. I mean, does that work? Does grazing underneath it work? So this was a Guardian article and they kind of framed it as solar grazing is good for sheep farmers, renewables and society, versus is it just a PR exercise? Does it actually work? Does it work in practice? So I thought, if I just set the scene with solar at the moment, the total UK land area is about 25 million, 24.4 million hectares, and government and the, you know, all the solar industry, estimate estimates that solar could use up to 0.4% of UK land by 2030, which means about 97,600 hectares out of 24.4 million. So sometimes I think the numbers make it feel like every acre of farmland is getting solar put on it. Is it. If you go down the bloody main line. Well, some of it is. there's definitely some hotspot areas for it, aren't there? I think one thing that people perhaps also want to wear of is that you can have land compulsory purchase or acquired for solar. I think if it's an N-Ship, is that right? Nationally significant infrastructure project. So if they're going. if they're saying that this solar farm is absolutely vital to power this town or whatever it is, then that farmland can be. Francaught the power stations a bit more. Apparently there's still less land used for solar farms than for golf courses. Fun facts. If they just put solar panels on building roofs, I honestly, I can't. I just can't. There's so many that. every home should basically be able to. I mean, I know flats present a different challenge with that, because you're not having that relative roof space to the. But if every roof was utilised or near as much, if every roof was utilised, surely. But it's just too much paperwork to be able to get around that many people, I think. One thing. this is probably not to get into now, but I thought it's quite interesting. The idea of grazing sheep under solar panels. Where does that sit with vegans or vegetarians who don't eat meat for kind of environmental reasons? Now, if we've got the environmental big-ticking the box of solar panels, renewable energy, but then there's the second thing of sheep grazing it, which are used for meat production. Rebecca, these are the same people who say that sharing a sheep is taking its skin off. Let's not even pretend that they will understand. I think for farmers, we have a real sense of a link, a link culturally heritage, even just that emotional tire, even just the kind of work bloody hard on those fields for the last 50 years, to see land being taken when it is often good agricultural land, flat land, because you're not putting really solar panels upon some fell somewhere. The Conservative Party conference was very interesting when you looked at how much the UK is pushing for green energy and the uselessness of it. It's just a pointless honestly. The article estimated that on a typical site, I don't know what typical means, but it said that managing the grass, mowing, spraying, blah, blah, whatever, would cost up to £50,000 annually. So actually, for the solar companies, it's better to get sheep grazing on it, because you're reducing those costs significantly. But we haven't. I've left a trailer in a field with a brake cable or lights. I've thought this, don't they chew it and rub on it? Nibble cables. Let's just be careful here. Well, the article, so it focused a fair bit on a lady called Hannah, first-generation sheep farmer. She started with 18 acres and 20 sheep, now grazes 250 acres, including land used for solar panels, and she has over 200 sheep. So I actually got in touch with Hannah, she's got back to me with some voice notes. And I think, well, should we just play some of them? We may not have a chance to listen to all of them. But if you're interested to hear more from Hannah, in Inca Pot Farm, INKPOT Farm. Oh, that is. Yes. I saw on Instagram. Anyway, so yes, I asked a few questions. How I found working with alongside solar companies has, I mean, I've only, there's only one solar company. Oh, actually, the solar panels that we graze has changed management. So it's two solar panels, two solar companies. Because my relationship is with the landlord, rather than with the company who have the solar panels on their land. My agreement is with the landlord, not with the solar company. However, we rub along really well, I think, because I, for their security, we all have to share padlock codes. You know, we all need to know the numbers. And so they've got cameras up everywhere because we're, you know, we graze under millions of pounds worth of solar panels. Quite mind-boggling, really. And so I, how it works on a day-to-day basis as I'm going into the solar panels, I'll ping a little, what's up over to the site manager to let them know that I'm going in. And so that can kind of disarm any security system or anything they turn the cameras off, apparently, when we're in there. Now, I, I actually think hats off to her that she, she just happened to go through that. I know I could, like, journey in the every time I went in. I feel to text someone. Yeah, that process every time. But if it's great, if it's you graze it, and you need it. Well, and I, I think actually that's one point I was going to make in that if grazing is unaffordable, unobtainable, you've got sheep grazing is lost. And you, you just need somewhere to put them. That's a small sacrifice to make, isn't it, really, to. I wonder how grass grows under them. Well, do you think I would say on the angle of them, at some stage surely they won't shadow too much? Maybe I should have actually asked her that question, should I? Right, let's hear from Hannah again. So, um, is the grazing setup that I have more viable than other ways of accessing land for new entrants? Not necessarily. No, I don't really think so because I'm paying the going rate for the grazing land, as I would, whether there were solar panels in that field or not. The, the one side of it is it's very well-fenced. And so because it keeps humans out and deer out. And so the fencing is very sheet proof. And that's probably the one real kind of upside so that you know, it's not just an empty field, but if you were grey, if you were renting land, that price you would normally expect it to be fenced as well. So I don't think for us because there's a, as there is across most of the country, I'm sure a high demand for land, you know, it's not easy to come across land that's available to rent or to buy. And so we're grateful for whatever land we can get hold of. I think that kind of sums it up, doesn't it? If, if you can get a land, so that they're still paying the going rate despite there being absolute tons of roof on your land. Well, also, is the landlord getting a double whammy there? Yes, it is. Is it because we're not, we're not let tenants, is the word, or grass tenants, such we're not grass tenants. But the, almost the concept of, well, we're, we're looking at it from a landlord's perspective, we're getting two bites at the cherry. I disagree with that. That's naughty. I'm sorry, Hannah. I think you're getting a really rough deal there. I think you should be getting it for little, or billing him for 50 grand for long, mowing costs. Him or her, sorry, him or her. Let me see a couple more. I think she's really interesting. Yeah. It's really interesting to hear from, to hear from her. But the fencing's a big bonus. That's a good point. If anybody has sheep, don't our farm is severely lacking in the fenced department. What we do have fencing is beautiful and double fenced and all really nice, but then the bits that we don't have fenced are higher. Going back to the, to the, whether you get the land, the grazing for free or not. That's interesting because the NSA, so Nicola Noble, she talked about, NSA, I should say, is the National Sheep Association. So, from the article, free solar grazing was a valuable opportunity for new younger or smaller farmers, but there's also a risk of it becoming a PR exercise. A way to make communities more comfortable with planning applications, and she said, sometimes, solar companies promise to consider grazing at the planning stage, then the grazing never happens. So, also, what do they do if the grazing doesn't happen? Well, then they'll probably just mowing it, aren't they? I assume. But does the grazing idea make it feel palatable for the community by, you know, the solar companies are saying, well, look, we'll help out a local farmer by having a free grazing rate. So, it's good for the environment, it's good for the sheep, it's good for a local farming business, but then not actually follow through on it. But as Hannah's just highlighted, it's not up to the solar company. It's the landlord's discretion. No, but that's interesting because I am. Now, somebody came and put solar panels on our land, which they're not going to, but if they did, I wouldn't be letting them tell us. Then again, would they specify that when they did it? Would they specify that? They're leasing the land and the lease in the land. Well, and it'll be very much dependent on the leasing terms, won't it? I actually, when it loads, I sent an email to Light Source BP. Now, they oversee one of the largest sheep grazing programs in the UK. So, hold on. Now, I did watch a video from Light Source BP in it. It did kind of, it felt quite idyllic the way that the video was done as everything did on solar, as everything does on social media. So, Light Source BP, they are linked to actual BP that you would, you know anything. So, Light Source BP is a leading developer, constructor, an operator of onshore renewables and energy storage assets across five continents. Anyway, very kindly they got back to me with some questions that I had, because I thought it would be really interesting to see from the solar company side. Now, I suspect they're not the same company, but that's fine. So, she actually has sent so much stuff, so I won't be able to go through all of it. But, some interesting stuff. Obviously grazing is very compatible with solar B. So, the PV, this answers our question. From a design perspective, cabling is kept encased to protect the animals from coming into contact with live components. Sheep are a preferred option for managing the vegetation as opposed to actual, you know, machines, moors, etc. Contracts are in place to ensure that both parties, the PV plants, the solar plants and the grazier are both aligned on the operational aspects. So, for example, the height of the solar panels, it's a minimum of 800 mil to allow free movement beneath the arrays. Oh, look like high. For example, grazing mixtures are recommended, so that it's best for sheep and obviously for the sword itself. There's recommended stocking densities to balance the ecology and farming needs, a drinking water supply for summer grazing can be installed at build if needed. And this was an interesting point. With increasingly hot summers, we often see sheep and during the shade the panels provide similarly in wet or windy weather. That's a common sense. Yeah, I imagine they're like hedges, don't they? But the government have got us keeping sheep out of hedges, so. Yeah, exactly. I asked about safeguards to ensure that agricultural use is actually maintained because obviously as the NSA put forward is there a risk that it's just suggested at the planning stage. Anyway, a grazing license is signed at option to lease stage or lease stage. I don't understand everything about this, but. And this is for the lifetime of the site. I have a story. Responsible to both the grazier and solar tenant are held, too, within the contract. And as long as either upheld, then she said, "That's it. It's a lifetime of the project. It will be grazed." It's cheaper than moating. I just don't understand how that goes. It's such a fortune. I'm going to story. I have a story, I have a story, I have a story, I have a story, I'm going to story. My dad killed a cow with his solar panels. Yeah. Go on. My dad's solar panels were in the batteries in the garage outside, and they were on the roof. And they used to think, "How many times have we mentioned argas in this?" They were so basically, you could afford to run his aga, which was also electric and cost a fortune and incidentally isn't on. They now have a lovely, strong ninja cooker on top. It's quite nice. And there was cows in the field next door, a cow somehow broke into the fence, like there was like a double fence, broke into the double fence, leaned over and licked the cable out of the wall. I don't know what cable it was, licked it out of the wall, and I presume it was attached to the batteries that were storing the power. And when it licked it, it electrocuted itself and it was stone dead. Well, and this is exactly that cabling, and also probably from, you know, like, and then my dad is put in the bill for the cow. Did he install it? Yes. But it was on his land. Yes, you wouldn't have. But still, he killed a cow. It was a nice cow as well, because they are nice cows. Oh dear. Whoopsie. I'm going to couple more bits from light source BP, because I think it is really interesting to see the other side that our solar panels, the villain that they're made out to be. I mean, there's an MP, Dr Caroline Johnson said our scarce land should be used for the best possible purpose using prime agricultural land for solar panels, puts food security risk. But to go back on that light source BP came and said that local councils, often are even more stringent than the national guidance and often don't support planning approval until the third time they do. Well, on grade one, two or three A lands. So this is, these are assurances that you can get in this. I get that, but there will be some places where you are not allowed to take up good agricultural land. But then again, that is a case of the local authority. Then, isn't it, to have the balls and the conviction of policy to say we value good farmland? Did you see the huge warehouse where the local cows are in trouble? No. Didn't see it. I'm fine. It will talk about it in the future episode. Basically, the, yeah, this huge warehouse had been like commissioned and just been rushed through. No, no, it's got planning, rush through. It said it wouldn't impact the people. Well, good grief. You want to say it's like a skyscraper. And it's the house. Really? Yeah. Local council are in trouble, really. Oh, dear. This slightly answers the point on kind of the relationship. So I asked about can grazing agreements and solar solar sites support new entrants. And they came back and said, we work with tenant farmers where the landowner has handed over their grazing agreement to those who are just starting out or have smaller flocks. They move around between parts, smaller parcels of land. So I'm assuming-- Just a word of mouth by the sound of it, isn't it? Yes. So pretty much like what grass is now? Yeah, exactly. I think this is maybe slightly idealistic. On the larger sites, rotational grazing of smaller flocks can be achieved through collaborative working with the operations and maintenance provider that maintains the site. Like that in practice is difficult, isn't it? I don't know how you electric fence-- because when we talk about rotational grazing on, let's say a 30 acre field, let's say you made it into six, five acre paddocks, that's easy because you just put electric fencing across. Yes, you can't do that, can you? And so I appreciate the sentiment in theory, just that. In practice, does that work? I have no experience, but I don't know. But a very big thank you to Light Source BP actually for coming, because that's a global company who have come back to-- Yes. --the Little Wilson and Ashley podcast to give some insight on that side. So I think we've got to be very, very grateful to them for coming back to us. But I think I guess to conclude this section, it's a difficult one. I can see the animosity towards solar panels. I get it. However, if we are being pushed down a route of diversifying income, if they are giving us money, why shouldn't you? Well, we're not going to, because it's not what we're into, but if you want to take that path, no shame. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and I think-- And it will become an ever pressing issue for farming. I think it's coming. Yeah, completely agree. Taking boxes, isn't it? It is. I was listening to a podcast, and they were talking about Trump. Obviously, there's been a fair bit while he's always in the news, isn't he? But he was talking about the North Sea. I couldn't stop laughing about his comments last night on British soldiers being the ultimate warriors. So I'm thinking of Henry as like the ultimate warrior. I thought that at the party, I saw the war. Five-year-old warriors. But Donald Trump was saying that we have 500 years of-- Now, I don't believe every word he says, don't give a wrong. He said, "We have 500 years of oil left in the North Sea, which we're just not bothering to access." And that's obviously why we have absolutely, exponentially increased energy prices here, because we're adamantly not using our oil that we have access to. But anyway, that is a topic for another day. Now let's take a quick break to hear a little more about our headline sponsor, BKT and Kirby Tires. We're genuinely so pleased to have them support in the podcast. They do a huge amount within the agricultural tire industry and beyond. And let's be honest, they're literally keeping the wheels of farming turning. Charlotte, you know about keeping the wheels of farming turning. Or shall we say not turning when you're stuck or spinning? Or you get a puncture at exactly the wrong moments. I don't know what you could be possibly talking about. But on a serious note, that's where Kirby Tires come in, bringing over 60 years of experience, entire and wheel distribution. Their partnership with BKT, spanning nearly two decades, combines two players at the top of their game when it comes to expertise and service. BKT and Kirby Tires supply tires and wheels across the UK, Ireland and Worldwide, working with specialist dealers across agriculture, forestry, earth moving, industrial, HGV and transport. And their trusted partners to some seriously well-known machinery manufacturers too. So we really are glad to have BKT and Kirby Tires backing the podcast, backing agriculture, helping make sure Charlotte doesn't get her tractor stuck. Right. Let's get back into it. Let's talk about Dury. Yeah, this is your area expertise, Charlotte. Well, actually, the milk price is not my area of expertise because, in honestly, ours has held. ours is good. We have a good milk price. Well, should we give it like kicking a dog when it's down, when everyone else is struggling so much? I'm like, "Ah, it's great." Should we go straight in with that then? We've read an article by the Guardian again. They've created this episode for us. Paul Tompkins, he's a dairy farmer. Actually, not that far away from me. And the headline is, he's losing £1800 a day, milking cows. Before we get into that side of things, and we'll hear from a few listeners. Let's just talk about your price, Charlotte, in terms of why it's held, why you're in a unique position. But I guess why you're treading quite a difficult line? Because you don't want to be, you don't go parading around saying, "Ah, milk prices are right." It's a difficult conversation to have. Well, as per my contract, I can't tell you what, my milk price is. My milk price is good. That's what I'll tell you. It's very good. It always is, well, always as far as I've known, has been up on everybody else's. Jersey milk is a niche product. The cow is smaller. It gives less milk. But it gives a better quality milk. So when I say that, I mean, it's higher in like butterpats and butterpats and end-of-proteins. So it's basically very creamy. It's what I would describe it as. Do you not remember when we had that coffee? I've got some in the fridge if you wanted coffee with it. And it was literally like, "Oh no, you can't have coffee with cold coffee." Oh, yeah, sorry. Sorry, it was healthy. It was healthy, healthy. You just need to cut out the booze and then we're all right. That's a step too far. Thank you very much. Take the wine, take the wine. So there's a reason for your. We are such a minority. In fact, we are a minority. So I don't know. I once tried to find out how many pure Jersey hurts their word, but there's not many of us to be perfectly honest. Why do people not have Jersey's end? So pin in the ass. Yeah, no, there's so much smaller. So for instance, Kelly Seaton did an interview the other day on five news. The amount of milk her cows were given was colossal. I couldn't believe it, as is literally half of that. They're a small animal, they give a lot less milk. They are renowned for being naughty, petted little SH1Ts. And they are, they live up to every bit of their name. For people say that Jersey's kick a lot. I've only, I've got two cows that would kick my head in on purpose because they're really nasty. And one of them's tags 6, 6, 6, believe it or not. Yeah, she's really nasty. But apart from that, honestly, they're great. They really are. And I know our milk, our supplier, they're looking for, they'll take Jersey's, they will take more Jersey milk. They absolutely love it. How would you, if you had a more conventional breed, how do you convert? How the hell do you? Because you'd have to, there's also a mindset adoption I would assume. And mindset change that you need to adopt because you would have to go from trying to maximize quantity versus accepting that a lower quantity is okay. That's probably quite hard to do to drive in such a different direction. Yeah, I think we found it all right because we'd never milked. So we just went into it and what we got was what, like honestly the first year, it was all new, we didn't know what other people's milk prices were. And then it's interesting because I can't really ask many people like what? We've never known anything else, basically. Yes. Let's go back. Sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry. GoPro's not brilliant, I think it was the idea. We should probably have looked at something else. We should get like a decent DSLR or whatever, I don't even know. Jollett, why are you looking at me? And then you can't look into it. We'll have a look. Going back to the article, okay. So one thing I wanted to illustrate about this is that we can't say that Tom Kinshere is an outlier or he's a bad farmer or he's inefficient. He's got 500 Holstein's very kind of traditional commercial dairy cow. Chair of the NFU dairy board, etc, etc. It would be 100% unfair to say he's just an inefficient farmer, he's just a bad farmer. Here's costs, he said he can produce milk for about 40p a litre. However, he's only being paid 29p a litre by his milk processor. I find it eye watering. Now, there are some retailers and processors who do cover costs of production, don't they? There are some of those contracts in existence. But actually, the largest majority of dairy farmers are subject to these fluctuations. Now, if you look at the numbers of, well, some of the supermarkets, £1.65 for four pints, which equates to 41p a pint or 73p a litre. 73p a litre and the farmer is getting 29p. Now, this is just using these kind of figures. I'm not saying that's exactly the same for every supermarket and every farmer. But you can see that there's a massive difference. And some people are on lower prices than that as well. And could have slightly higher costs. That's a fairly decent size, hurt. That's a very decent size. Which will be. Anyway, he said, current milk prices, if they carry on as they are now, he's going to make a loss of at least £660,000 this year. How can you go on? Genuinely. I don't know how you go on. It interests me why. I don't think it. You kind of want to say, is it because, you know, just roll pastry and not using milk in the product? It isn't. It's an over-supply of milk. So what I've kind of had explained to me as is a really dry summer meant that the salvage quality was shite. Grass didn't grow. So people were feeding to compensate for that. Like concentrate hard feed effectively. Yeah, so basically they were. They were shelling out on a load of feed for one, which cost a fortune. And they were buying their milk, basically. So they were keeping production up. But at the cost of. It wasn't grass that you were growing. It was feed that you were buying, which is at one hits. That's a bit number one. But that also meant that there was like record-breaking, you know, numbers and reserves of milk and all this stuff. Well, it's interesting that AHDB, Agriculture Hought, to Cook to Development Board, said that more than 7% of extra milk was produced by British farmers in the final three months of 2025. So that just shows that there's an over-supply there in the UK. Mike Houghton, Houghton. He's Houghton. Farm consultant and partner Anderson. They do like farm business consultancy stuff. He said, "American production is up. New Zealand is hanging in on in there with their production." And he said, "A lot depends on China and how much milk they buy. That has not gone up. It all comes together. It's a perfect storm and there's too much milk." I have those seen. I think some farmers are cynical about the argument of too much milk because I think they see the processes using that argument as a reason to then basically. How do I explain it? Cut off buying the British milk and their importing stuff for cheaper. Is that correct? Yeah, I would say. I think. Milks, one of them things. I don't think they're going to get it. I think more in like. When they do their milk-powred and skimmed milk powder and stuff which goes into products. Yes, exactly. I wonder how we. If the milk price is really, really good, all the guys have gone, "Do you know what? I'll make some money. I'll stick another hundred cows on." And then they've created literally, in essence, our farm. Another one of them. And they're over-supplying because the milk price is so good. And then we end up in a glot like this. And everyone goes, "Oh no, this is terrible." Things do go in peaks and troughs, but you worry. But these are massive waves. And then you think back to like. I was just looking at like the milk quota. This is way before my time. It was introduced in April 1984. Yep. And it was to cap or limit the maximum amount of milk a farmer could sell annually without incurring a financial penalty. So you're levy. Yes. I know people who got on the wrong side of the milk quota and they overproduced and ended up in debt. And basically owing more money than what they were making. Then the milk thing. They're the bad stories. But the milk quota, you had a milk quota and you kept your quota. Yes. And it kept a level supply throughout the. Yes. Someone will correct me and tell me that I am incredibly wrong for thinking like this. And it's the night of your career going. And from my, you know, rarefied position of having a good milk price for a niche product. Yes. Why was that a bad thing? Yes. And why did they get rid of it? Well, and also there's a lot of talk about milk marketing board. And you see on the kind of Facebook pages of, you know, British farming, whatever on Facebook. And that's quite an interesting one. Because some people are calling for that to come back. Basically it was. Backed by the government and set this level, this level price, making sure that, you know, your milk is distributed, et cetera, produced, fairly. blah blah blah, stable price. And they've. And I guess the government through the milk marketing board were trying to make sure that. Well, they were trying to reduce the volatility. And that predictability in income, et cetera, et cetera means that you can plan. You can't invest, and it also means that you can kind of guarantee an amount of milk being supplied for consumers as well. But they wouldn't be in this position if everybody kind of had there. And you could buy and sell milk quotas, I think. It's interesting, is it? Are you right? It's not something that we probably have that kind of. But did it make it an experience? Yeah, but then again, would it have counted against us? Would new entrants into the dairy industry be able to get a milk quota? Is it possible for people to pick one up or buy one, for instance? Or was it just not attainable? Yeah, yes. I. Let me find this message. I've had a message on Instagram about this topic. What a devastating read. And this is somebody who's involved in the dairy sector. And the kind of veterinary sector as well. How many other industries would be working at losses like that? Also, the focus on the fact that the consumer won't be seeing a change in their food prices. For around seven months feels insensitive. How many ultra-process foods containing milk? Well. Bless you. Well. It's gone. How many ultra-processed foods containing milk will go down in price to subsidise this? I'm sure very few. The bigger question is how many dairy farmers will be left producing in seven months' time if this downward spiral continues? It feels like they're being punished for the years and generations of breeding gone into creating a high-yielding healthy animal. And I thought just picking up on one of the points made there. Nearly 20% of British dairy producers have quit since October 2019, according to figures from the AHDB. We jumped in when other people were getting out. Well, cutting their numbers from 8,720 to 7,010 in just six years. So all there is 7,000 in turn dairy farms? Now. So elite. Horton. predicts. and that's the chat from Anderson's. Predicts that as many as 10% of dairy producers and other 700 farms could leave the industry for good. Why would they be doing it? Why if you are not getting the price? If you're not me, it's like Princess Anne says, if it doesn't pay, we can't stay here. Yes, exactly. Yeah, come to the solar panels. Well, interestingly though, the volume of milk produced hasn't actually changed that much in decrease, but obviously a lot of farms are probably getting bigger. The bigger efficient and bigger handling. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. We are very unusual, I think, in the way that we operate. I think bigger farms will get bigger and be swallowed up and will all kind of be. If you did want to farm, you know, and still a little. the feeders, feeder farms won't call them. Yeah. Should we hear from Kelly Seedens? Yes, this is Kelly on milk price. Rebecca, thank you for covering the milk price story. So for us personally, what that means is that since November through February, we've gone down approximately eight pence per litre, which equates to us being £19,000 less per month in our milk check from September to February. Internationally, what's happened is that there was obviously blue tongue in Europe, so their milk production was down a little bit. The UK hasn't been affected by blue tongue, touch wood. So we have been up year-on-year. So we're about seven to ten percent up on two years ago in terms of milk volume sales. Last year, on the global market, they could swallow that. Because the US and Europe were down. But this year, Europe and the US are firing back up again, so there's just too much milk, ultimately. The other impact was that with less gross production, those farmers that would have relied very heavily on grass for milk production have been feeding. So where they would get say, and this is just ballpark figures, say they would get 14 litres per cow, per day, they'd then get more, so 18 to 20 litres per cow per day. But the milk to feed price ratio was beneficial for this. It's just that we're now in a position where genetically and feed conversion wise, everyone is getting more and more efficient. But the process is can't keep up, basically. And also the consumer can't keep up with our production. So yeah, it's a simple measure of too much milk, but lots of different factors that have affected that. What I find crazy is it's an industry which is almost the victim of its own success by becoming so efficient and whatever. Yes, dairy farms are decreasing and farms are increasing their volume by getting more cows and being more efficient. It is an incredible testament to the UK dairy industry, what they can achieve, though. Absolutely. I'm not saying that this is good right now. No, come on guys, we're doing it. This is great. Like this is what people are capable of. Absolutely, and it just shows, you know, back in the day with little Emma Dale cows walking around. I'm not holding her thing. Emma Dale cows will be getting the same lead trigger. I'm getting. Never mind what these guys are getting. And I think dairy farms are definitely at the forefront when it comes to, you know, you look at your robots up there, for example. But particularly when it comes to day togethering in terms of safe, for example, lameness in dairy herds, that is something which dairy farmers are so on it with. Because obviously I was more on it. Well, you're getting there. You haven't had their cows for that long. You're still working through a lot to you. Oh, yeah, it's just, I think realising that a lame cow lying around, it really does make a difference. Or even a cow that's not happy, she won't go to the robot. Honestly, it really does. And one of the biggest things we found that will impact on milk yield is lameness. Yes. Absolutely incredible. And we've just got a new foot bath, a lele walkway. It's called, I've actually not shown anyone really yet. It's, it's done. It's packaging around the corner. Just because Christmas was so busy, but that's going to be installed. And hopefully that will help alleviate some of our lameness problems. We have like, did G, which is digital dermatitis. Yes. And going through like a solution every day. Or you do, the thing is if, if you, you, we have a cow that goes through the robot's 35 times the day. Don't, she's an asshole. She needs to go, but with low on count numbers. So she can't, she's got to stay. She's just, she knows where the peanuts are and she wants them peanuts and she just keeps going around and around and around. So that cow, if they. Does she get any, if she doesn't milk? She get no, she doesn't, she gets kicked out, but because she knows if she's fast, she gets the leftovers from what the previous cow left. She's clever. She's very clever. So if there's a foot bath in front of that robot, that cow's going through the foot bath 35 times a day. And if the cow goes through the robot, six times a day, for instance, or three points, something, it's going through the foot bath that many times a day. So ideally, you don't want them really to be going through the foot bath, a clean foot bath. Yeah. Once, nice, every two days or something. Yeah. You wouldn't want it every day. Yes. So then you divert that kind of. It will be brilliant and it will be a game changer for us and we really think it will help with our lameness issue, which we do have. Stew the foot guy, absolutely brilliant. I like, I never thought that it would be on my radar to be dealing with lame cows. Yes. You didn't deal with lame cyclic cows. Yeah. Yeah. They're in a dairy cows, often. Like who do I think I am? A different environment. But that data thing is vital and I think dairy farmers are ahead of the curve of some other sectors in farming on that data. And therefore that's pushing forward productivity. And I guess the cows are managed in a dairy cows are managed in a much more different way, often, albeit having robots, a more hands-on way. And if you've got sheep out in a field, yes, you'll go round them, but you're not necessarily as close to them and hands-on with them every single day. I don't know what you are. Yeah. Definitely. I do like to be. One thing which I thought was interesting from this article, the chief executive of the consultancy Allegro Group, but this was a nod to the consumer impact. Milk and dairy are a significant cost, but far and away not the only one. Rent and people cost away more substantial. The minimum wage is going up again. Chains might reduce their price increases, but it's unlikely that lower prices will be passed on to consumers. So what he's citing there is that there's so many of the factors that effectively consumers aren't going to aren't going to feel any of it. That's ridiculous. I might just put my little-- What are your toes on this? Is it warm? Oh, it's warm. It is warm. It's warm. This is the thing when we sit though, because usually we're sprinting around. And I know it gets cold feet and cold hands. My hands have gone like white. My hands are just, let's not look at the state of my hands. Laming, laming. One thing you want to ask then, if consumers are not necessarily going to have a price reduction in the supermarket on a shelf, why is it always farmers who absorb the cost of the food or the price drop or whatever it is? No, we seem to take a hit from every single side of the thing. From every single thing. Yes. We're always os. It's so true that we always are the ones that bear the brunt. Yes, yeah, absolutely. I think-- and it was a point made in the message that we had. For an industry in a sector to be repeatedly and consistently month after month, not covering its cost of production, does call into question genuinely how much our farmers and domestic food security valued? Because if we're not functioning in a system, which, you know, why not all asking for record profits? And, you know, but to cover your cost of production is absolutely vital. And I think it's quite worrying to me because yes, we might end up having super farms. To consumers want super farms? I don't know. I thought we were scathing of super farms. Or do we want their efficiency? Well, this is it. You can't have it all. You should carbon in footprint by being more efficient and genetically this, that and the other. Do you want to be closer to your shot? We just take the heater towards you. Should we just bring it over here? Yes. One thing I did want to talk about is the dairy farming and dairy products bill. So Sarah Dyke is MP for Glaston-Bruin Summertime. I think she might be a farmer as well. I don't know if I've made that up. But anyway, she's aiming to get a bill through Parliament, which protects farmers from the sort of price fluctuations that we're seeing at the moment. That's a good idea. She wants the bill to ensure fairness for farmers. And particularly when farmers are competing against the imports from other countries. That's one thing which really, and that happens not just in dairy. But surely this should be common sense from the government to protect their own. Charlotte, sorry. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. So I will just kind of to summarise what this bill would look for. It would want to protect UK dairy farmers in trade deals, stronger labelling when there's imported milk, cheese and dairy products, fair dealing provisions across the dairy supply chain and contractual protections for dairy farmers. So when they've, when they're negotiating contracts, etc, etc, farmers have a stronger position and also just helping to insulate and prevent unfair terms or just sudden drops in prices. Yeah. Which they're actually, if farmers have to roll with a gradual price change, how are you meant to plough them? Then the future of your business is it. That's when you don't know what you're going to be paid. It's crazy. I just want to touch, and again, I keep we are oven. Oh, and I'm really sorry, everybody. I want to touch Charlotte. I hate to say it. My robot's ringing me. You're joking. No. I saw that screen now. I was like, I know that that's the robot screen. They're really feeding into the dairy guys. What do you want? What do you want? Go away. Charlotte, we sometimes see these kind of sensation list really like almost click baity headlines of farmers dumping milk. What does that mean and why do they end up doing it? Why are they pushed to do it? I think processing issues, I think that the sensationalist kind of headlines were sensational. I think it was unprecedented to need to do that. Basically, the company couldn't take the milk. It couldn't process it fast enough. They were still being paid for the milk. It's not like the milk was being dumped and they weren't being paid. They were being paid for it, but the process of couldn't. Just physically couldn't take the volume of milk. So they were being told to let it down the drain. A crying shame, honestly, ridiculous. But of course, your cows are still. You can't just switch off the cow's milk production overnight. They still have to keep getting milk. Well, I guess if we. Sometimes I feel like we try and give a nod to what consumers can do. Or you're not going to be able to change the situation single-handedly. It definitely is buying direct if you can, making sure that. I guess you are still consuming as much milk as you can. And if you're eating products with milk in, making sure that. Just be nice to your farmers. Absolutely. Well, really, although I'm interested to just go ahead farmers. Oh, well, very in keeping with the tone of the episode. Looks like we're going to go to the shed and see what the road will sell. It's telling us. But as always, if you enjoyed today's episode, learn something, had a laugh. Please do leave us a review and share. Podcast with your friends. Love a long time. See you next time. Bye! [Music]