Episode 207: Sobriety Looks a Little Different for This Sommelier

Hello and welcome to the Wine Adesious Podcast. You're serving of drinks culture and the people who drive it. I'm Jake Abrams, assistant editor here at Wine Adesious. Substituted scheduled to air on Wednesday, January 14th, smack dab in the middle of the annual phenomenon known as Dry January, where participants opt to forego alcohol for the first month of the year. But even without the push of dry January, people across the country are reconsidering their drink choices whether to even drink it all due to potential health and financial concerns. As it's perhaps more relevant now than ever before, we wanted to revisit Wine Adesious Tacing Director Anna Christina Cabrali's conversation with sober Sanleye Abe Zirate, which originally aired on the lead podcast in May of 2024. They tackle what it means to be sober and more specifically what it can look like to practice sobriety as a wine professional. Today we're talking about what it means to be sober in the wine industry and in general. While the two worlds seem contradictory to each other, we're answering the question, can the choice of sobriety exist, work, and possibly be enjoyable within the world of wine? So let's be clear, today we're seeing, yes, sobriety can exist in the wine world and it'll look different for everyone. And join to buy my friend Abe Zirate, aka @sobri_song on Instagram. We're going to definitely want to follow him after this podcast because he's just one of the best human beings and so, so much fun and he's so positive. He's one of the most positive people I know and why. Abe, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Hi. Feeling nervous? I'm good and good. I just have so many thoughts about this that I like to start by saying I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, but I do get really excited about sharing a very specific experience. And I love your story and it's totally eye-opening and I hope this might inspire a number of people who are listening in. But before we get into it, I'd love that what's got to know who you are and where you currently work. So why don't you share that with everyone? Yep, so I grew up between, well, I had Mexico and Dorado, Texas, I went to school in Boston for music and moved to New York to work in music publishing. So while I was doing that job to make ends meet, like most grads, I was working at court bus on wine bar. Love. Only on the weekends I remember being a little embarrassed once when I was asked a question that I didn't know the answer to and I was starting to understand what being Somalia meant, what a master Somalia meant as well. I took a wine 101 class and I really fell in love with the idea that two ounces of wine could retain qualities of where he came from, where he grew up, how it was raised and how it could change in the glass as you spend more time with it, just like any other human would be. And right place, right time, the beverage director there at the time to me under his wing and eventually I decided to commit the intrusion to wine. I found a lot of parallels specifically with publishing and even now that I'm at the modern working the floor, we do a lot of wine pairings. So whereas with publishing, I was matching a song in our catalog to an artist or a show or whenever the A&R person was looking for it at work now, I match a pilot to a region of labor profile, a style, etc. So it's a lot of the same thing all the while sharing stories, which is out the root of everything. And I love that. And yet here we come together today to talk about sobriety, which is the choice that you have decided to take this as your journey now while being in the world of wine. But before we answer anything else, why are we talking about this? Why now? I think it's important to talk about the things that that might not be as out in the open, but very much prevalent. Since I started sharing a couple of years ago, I have had lots and lots of people reach out saying they are not "out." But they appreciate whatever message or post or whatever it is that resonated with them. And that in turn just propels me to continue sharing because a gap, just because something or someone is not outwardly visible does not mean a "don't mix this." Do you find that a lot of people reach out to you on Instagram and ask you questions about sobriety? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've actually met with quite a few in person too. And again, it's never with the intent of saying this is what you should be doing. It's simply, this is what I have done. Why? I decided to stop ingesting alcohol and that's it. That's all I can do, right? Because everything we all do as humans. It's only through our lens, through our perceived reality, and if that ends up helping anyone make their own decision in any way, then that's all that matters. So it's a personal choice, right? Always, always, always. Yeah. I think it's like any other relationship, right? You have to have boundaries. I could talk about my sisters who are the people closest to me. And even we have very strong boundaries and that's what allows us to be so close. It sounds counterproductive, but if anything, it's really what drives the relationship and grows it. I like that. So by being sober, are you saying no to wine? I'm saying no to ingesting alcohol. I have continued to say yes to wine because to me wine is more than just alcohol. It is a celebration of the people, their stories, history, geography, community, experiences. I mean, when I, again, at work, when they sell wine, I don't sell tasting notes or regions necessarily. I paint a mental picture for these people to relate to. I grab onto something that I feel might resonate again, and that's what I lead with. You know, I sell anything from Rosé is just summer in a bottle. Something as simple as that to anensation white that we pour, relating it back to a trip I took last year and how it reminded me of beauty in the beast in real life. It always gets a reaction, whether it's a giggle or a smile, whatever it is, and then it gets people thinking it feels more interactive. I think that when wine is approaching a conscious way, it can be the best medium for connection, which is what ultimately we are all looking for, I think. Absolutely. I don't ingest, but I am a very active participant in every environment that wind us present. Because it's been with us for thousands of years, and it's not going away. So it's finding the way to participate that works for you. Oh, let's make sure it doesn't. Okay. But if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're trying to also say is that perhaps sobriety looks different for people. So when we go into perhaps defining sobriety. I'll give you my definition, because again, it's my, sure. My way of reframing it. And that's number one, it sobriety does not equal abstinence always. sobriety is more so a state of mind that leads you to a sustainable lifestyle. So it is, it's something that is also more prevalent than we think. It's as I mentioned, people are interacting with not just alcohol. Many substance in different ways. And whatever works works. You know the way I see it for myself is as a bit of an allergy. You know, some people have just a simple glint intolerance. And so do people have celiac disease. It's different levels. And there is a spectra. Not everyone is able to interact with something in the same way because they are affected differently. That's all that it is. And I taste weight almost every day. And I embrace that. I'm able to because I get it. It's I see it as all the things that it embodies in the form of a beverage. So okay. For some people, this may not necessarily make sense because of the word sober, but based on how you define it, do you taste wine? All the time. The logistics they hide it really don't change. If we're thinking about a white professional that does ingest alcohol, you know, you have a portfolio tasting. They might attend, right? And you have dozens of tables with five to six wines. on each table. And if you're tasting through, you have to be spitting. You know, it's it the way it's just done. Right. So if I don't move or not exactly. Yeah, I'll say now. Exactly. But you're literally for a specific purpose of tasting through to make informed decisions or whether it works for your beverage program, whether it works for the type of guest, say, catering to, etc. And if really doesn't change at all or in the way that I interact with it with my peers, if I were public about it, no one would really notice. So it sounds like you probably also get ton of crap for putting in lining your bows, even though you've defined yourself as a sober songway. Yeah, exactly. Wow. And sometimes because I am out, you could say, I will get the comment to the effect of that's not true sobriety because everyone has a very specific definition of what that should mean. And again, I'd explain what sobriety needs to me. I don't see it as an attack as much as an opportunity to educate people and just to more than educate just expose to other ways of living, other ways of existing and this very specific world. So what's like one of the biggest, as you want to call it, myth about sobriety that you'd like to the bot, like what would that be? Well, we should call the service level though. We're not fun. They are very fun. It's the fact that you might not. Another thing I've gotten is a regular of mine a couple of years ago set to a coworker that he wasn't sure he trusted my suggestion because I don't drink the white. And again, I don't take it as an attack because you know, he probably wasn't sure how I interact with wine on the daily and the fact that I do taste it and all these things. So it just propels me to share how it is possible and how you're able to do whatever works for you. I'm repeating myself, but not at all. Myth number two is sobriety forever sobriety. I personally had a fear of permanence when I decided to quit drinking. So I thought if I ever am in a very special event situation and there's a very special line, I probably will swallow that sick because you know, those uniform wise at I don't know. That's right. But now I am just so content with the boundaries that I have with with this substance that I I don't know. Well, I ever drinking and I don't know that's the answer. So it was a bright it could be forever. If we go by the definition of it being a just sustainable way of life, then yes, I think that's a well, whatever is the most sustainable to you. So talk about your aspirations to become a sober master's only a to the court of master of some of the association. Why don't you tell us about a little bit of your past and what led you up to your aha moment that led you to making this choice. There was this term being thrown around my way when I was coming up then the industry, which is that of a professional alcoholic that people seemed to wear myself included as almost like a badge of honor because in my case, I was still getting the certification, the promotion, still achieving things. And my mind with the help of this liquid courage. So I think, you know, when I started noticing that every aspect of my life was on a downward spiral, even that wasn't enough. There's a fallacy of the rock bottom and that doesn't really exist because your reality gets re adjusted to a lower level. So the rock bottom also gets slower. It's really the moment that sticks out is one of my sisters because we used to live together set to me. They couldn't spend time around me anymore. That really really hit me. I that's one of my biggest fears to grow older and just grow apart. There's this show hunting of Hill House. But it's own family dynamics and it's, you know, back and forth, passing present this perfect family when there are all kids and they jump to the future 20 years later, they're all in different living different lives and separated. That's actually wrong. But at the same time, I was watching that show. So it's probably what hit me so hard. I decided I needed to do something about it, you know, like a lot of people sharing my experience, you test your willpower and you say, oh yeah, I'm going to stop for one look on a stop for two weeks. You do it. But willpower is finite and it really doesn't mean anything. The fact that you're able to do, you know, whatever that mini goal you set out for yourself. I knew I pretty much have two choices. And one of them was keep going and wherever I end up is dark as it may be that that'll be my end or try one more time to really really commit. And I didn't want to be scared of a substance forever. I think and this goes for again, anything that you might have abused in the past. If you control you as you're abusing it and they can also control you after if you let it. I talked about myself as an ex alcoholic. I'm using a drone. I'm alcoholic forever. No, I don't do it anymore. That's it. Don't we move forward. And it really helped me immerse myself in an environment that I was already a part of and then I wanted to continue being a part of because I really, really love the wine industry and its people and its stories and add free thing else outside of it being outside of my being allergic to it. So that was the beginning of that big big change, I think. I love that you're really reflecting the magic around wine. Yeah. It's truly that thing that brings people together and you just demonstrated that it's okay that you can consume a lot of it, some of it, a lot of it. But ultimately this thing brings us together. Yes. That's what I wanted. I wanted connection and community. That's what we all want. And I just misused it. As I was transitioning to sobriety at my hundredth day, I decided to start an Instagram page, the sobriest on one. As a way to hold myself accountable and out myself with my peers and anyone who might see it because I wanted to turn it into a sort of super power. Oh, that's, I'm sure it was scary at first. It's so scary. I just got chills thinking up when I was done typing, whatever I was sharing. And before hitting post, I, I kept forever. No, I knew I wasn't going to delete it. It was just one of my sisters was in the room of me. I was like, I don't know, I don't know how to know. And then I just did it. And it, I mean, it worked. You know, I, at that time, I know I'm not alone and saying that I cared about what every single person could say. Now I only care about what specific people have to say about me. Right. But before it was everyone. So again, I wanted to use that to my advantage. If I care so much, I want to at least remain sober. It's how that I don't ruin my chances of continuing in my career. And again, eventually I worked on it, you know, behind scenes and just manage to turn it into just that kind of straight. Your page resonates so much joy. And there's a lot of wine posted in your page. You totally embraced it amongst all other things that you do in life, which is, right, you're really showing your love for this industry and, you know, the product in itself. But how do you tune out the negative noise? I worked a lot on my identity and being radically honest with what I want, who I am really, really, it sounds cliche, but really learning to love every part of myself. and I really do. I used to hate my day, I don't know, I let all of it. extra cheeks than I had. Now I love them. I like, I just go, those are so cute. It's little things like that. And I speak to myself and that way maybe it's un-sweared or not, but that's what I do. And it's really only that helps me own my narrative because I know myself, I like myself, I love myself. So it's harder for anyone else to decide who I am or what to say about me. And the more I share, the less people can assume, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if you feel a lot of that on a social media. Okay. So in holding yourself accountable on social media and keeping this positive narrative about yourself and building content that inspires other people has it propelled you to be more active in person in the space of why, especially in the New York market. Yeah. So I came up at a court buzz as I mentioned, which is a wine bar that was opened with education at the forefract. So it's, it's all about what my focus and intentionality is behind everything. So that's why I love, I love, because educating is, it's just sharing. Yeah. And it's not that I know more than anyone else about wine or sobriety or whatever the subject might be. It's just I am willing and to share it and I enjoy and learn as you go. So that's the core of it all. Really, I like to go back to that first moment where I took that one, one, one class and I fell in love with wine and tried to always lead with that for whatever I do. And so how long has it been now that you've been a super solute? Three years and eight months. And how do you feel now? I feel great as a one word, but I feel confident in my own definitions about sobriety and what being a Somali A is even comfortable and knowing I can sit through any uncomfortable emotion. And I know there's the other side. I'm very proud of myself for proving myself right instead of focusing on proving others wrong. And I am so happy really that I found a way to connect deeply with people without abusing anything that was, you know, not the best for me. If you're amazing and I know that for me, as much as I totally respect your choice to me, so where I know that for me personally, it could never work. It sounds like you've been down like a really, really tough journey, but look at you now. You're amazing. But I know that firstly, I don't think I can do it. I just wouldn't be my definition of happy. Now, as the Tacing Director, I love to do exactly that. Taked. I love to pair wine with food. Yes, occasionally there might be that feeling of tipsy, but I know when to stop, when to, you know, let's go and, you know, find that medium that makes me happy. No, I find my own balance in the space of wine and you know, I don't drink it every day. I don't eat it every day. But you know what? I wonder sometimes especially now that we keep hearing of this trend of wine decrease in a wide consumption, especially with the younger generation. If there's a little like this fear of losing control since, you know, you just got out of extreme time over our lives, you know, the pandemic. You know, why do you think this is potentially like happening, especially now? You said a keyword there that I like, which is wonder, and that is where I think we would all benefit from existing in this, this place of wonder and discovery and open mindedness. We live in a very black or white world where the extreme option almost becomes like easier choice. It's easy to live in an extreme because it doesn't challenge who you are, your behavior, your values. So in the study, on the topic that Gen Z, for example, is drinking less and less, we have focused on why it is that they're not drinking. But what they've done is they've replaced whatever the experience of connection wine was a part of with something else. Where are they searching for connection? TikTok or, you know, I actually don't know what else I've done. The RTT cannabis. Victory 2021 in the middle of the pandemic, a lot of them, I look back at my time in college and I know you might relate. It's, you know, we church 101. We are hosting. We have our new apartments. We're hosting this fancy dinner where we bake is fancy and having wine, inviting our friends. But again, what is it that we were looking for? Connection. Right. Now it's just a different way of finding it. So it's it's finding ways to make why you a part of it again for these dollar generations. And how are you, you're, you're yourself. So personally, getting that generation connected back into wine. I think it's easy to advance in anything and forget that at one point, we didn't know that Sunsayer was made with the subunion. Well, I'm great. That's a silly example. But I, for whatever reason, I'm a route people who don't really work with beverage at all. So I'm constantly reminded about it. And if I'm excited, they get excited. We also forget that everyone loves to hear about a passionate person, talk about what they love and what just fills them with the, the full fills them. And if that's wine, if you love it for reasons beyond the technicalities of it, you will resonate and that will be welcoming enough for anyone who might not know about it. I agree. I feel that if you just don't sure your joy about something, should it be a wine or anything else, why would someone else want to partake in anything else? Right? Exactly. Yeah, you have to share your joy. And I feel as though we've kind of lost that along the way. And I'm glad that, you know, you share that joy constantly with others. And I mentioned it. I lead with experiences. Right? What are people going to relate more to my comment on all cells surrounding me if you do in the beast or this one maker finding a rare plot that was suited, suitable for whatever great. And they decided to agent on the lease for nine months. You know, it's finding that connect. So for those out there listening to this and might be, you know, curious as to how to grow as a sober somebody in the business, it's got some tips for you. So let's dive into tip number one. Yes. Tip number one, I'd say is find your people and build your community. I am able to be part of study groups, blind and twisting groups because these people learn in different ways. We teach each other, but also they don't make my sobriety a thing. You can all call it this and practice. It's the same exact thing. Okay, tip number two, define your boundaries and place yourself in the right environment. Learning what enough is enough. You know, right? I brought up earlier my relationship with my sisters. We're so close because we have boundaries. I can put wine in my mouth, taste it, appreciate it, spit it out because we have that boundary. Tip number three, find all of the other things that pulled you in into this world of wine in the first place and find a way to share them. For me, it was that very human light quality to wine. It is raced, it is treated, then it goes out into the world and it has its own experience where that bottle is open and just several stories that continue in the world. I think you and I both love pairing wine midsights. Should it be atleast food, a moment, music, it's relatable. Yeah, always. And I gave up, that's a good point. I said, give up. I don't see, I quit drinking alcohol. I could have behavior. I didn't give anything up because I'm still a part of all of these experiences. This is where I would just defer. important. Tip number four. Normalize the tombs. Free. Free. Free. Free. Good. Kind of that's it. Yeah, every time I think I have a portable like spattune, I'm like, ah, you'll use the app. So now what I'd love to do is just hone in on your meskin heritage and the flavors that are familiar to you, especially when you taste through wine. And this is going to be a fun exercise because I'm looking on. We have very similar ingredients and flavors that we both grew up with. So let's jump into it. Yes. The first, by the way, is tables and mels. Amazing. Uh, is tamarind. Tamarind. I, you can assume in any shape where formed tamarind water just as the actual fruit, but my favorite, obviously candy. There's this candy called put by Indub, but I grew up eating anytime I taste specifically aged mousel rice thing is where I really get it. I get this candy salty kind of spicy not in the form of heat, but just, uh, let me go and take a bite. Not good. Oh, I like this. I grew up with this when the fill pan's mine is a little bit more sugary, but it has that tart sour, no, what kind of feels like a, the sten of like a boss pair. Yeah. And except the worst that it has the little bit of heat. Delicious. I think that's why I love it so much because it hits almost every flavor profile. And even the acid, I'm speaking now, like salivating. It's, it's, it's just a recipe of a taste to racing rather reminds me of eating this candy. That's so wild. So any favorite thing you're just resonates more with like mousel. I think for me, it might as well like run that one. Oh, with that with our sheep. Yeah. More spice. Yeah. Yeah. Of it. All right. Hamika. Hamika. My favorite thing. This just makes me think of my grandma, you know, when I'm doing a stop training, you know, just any sort of education. I talk about people getting subjective descriptions like my grandma's closet. Jimmy's grandma's closet and New Jersey's. And I was very differently from my grandma's closet and while I had a, so yes, I think most of us would be familiar with hippas because tea, but I want to have my God just smelling that fresh, humica being steeped into water and the specific kind of concentration. It reminds me of just red burgundy. We'd be a little bit old age. Something maybe even from a warware vintage that concentration. It's, it's, it's hard to describe. I love this smell. It's kind of for me at least what I'm experiencing in the glass. Kind of has that re and a jevery vibe to it. It's like this resticity trip, but there is that elegance that's that that beam of elegance through the cold, right? Totally. Yeah, yeah. Who I love this and the color is beautiful. It looks like burgundy. Ah, exactly. Hippahasso. All right, mangoes. Mangoes. And we have it here with a heen because why not? That's 100. There's still it's out. I grew up eating it. So cheers, cheers. I have this newly on a margarita. And one should. So mangoes. Yeah. There's, you know, beyond the the aromatics, right? That I find and a lot of maybe warm recoyn at Sauvignon Long's and every style, whether it's sweet, dry, et cetera. Whoa, they're not that good. Yeah, because I'm a green mango. Ah, that's, I forgot to specify. Yeah. I was going to go into the texture of that rightness where it almost I'm not kidding. It feels like butter. These very right Mexican mangoes just melts in your mouth and that's that texture coming from warm. You know, it's funny because I in the third of teens, I was just there after not visitors such a long time and it almost forgot this flavor of mango that we have where again, and we don't talk about such here nearly as much. But yeah, it felt like butter and the sweetness. It wasn't this cloying level of sweetness. It just you knew that there was a lot of sugar in there. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that it was integrated in such a way that you could probably eat another tentatos. Yeah. And I did. Yeah. It's always. And well, just like when we talk about quality sweet wines, that backbone of acid and rightness is still there, which I love. For me, it's that green mango flavor. Oh, I love, I love the snap of it. I love this, like this slight rawness to it. You can feel very subtle notes of what feels like a shy re-sling if you will. Yeah. A shy, semi-on-blank. It's got more of that quiet whisper to it. But then if you throw a little bit of Trumpi, stand that, which I absolutely sure. Everything yet. Yeah, because it's salty, it's bumpy, it's earthy. It's horrible to look at. Well, how you taste it, liver? Yes, thanks. It's monocle. Not defined. No shape. Nothing. Just. Oh, it's so odd. And I grew up eating best with like peaches. Oh, not just mangoes. Okay. Peaches also more underrate. Ooh, actually, yes. Okay. Yeah, I grew up with the underrate by totally eating right. Yeah. Makes me think of some people use or crunchy or like kind of snappy acid. And yeah, totally. It has that. You don't talk nearly as much as I'm about texture. And I'm so glad we're touching that acid as well as line that he. Yeah. Texture, I think it's missed a lot of the times. And with parries, I try to bring it up a lot at work because again, I don't like leaning with aromatics and you know, it's so subjective that there's no no point. But that texture, it's something that people can immediately almost feel. Yeah. I agree with just trying to find things that are relatable. And one of the most like creative descriptions that I heard recently is especially about tenants. It's like a quarter-roy texture. Oh, yeah. And you know, I knew you were at least. Yeah, exactly. I think, you know, because of velvety, you got it overused. And I think people stopped using any sort of smooth texture like that. Yeah. Smooth. Yeah. I think that's what happened. Should be fine. But it's started with quarter-roy. Yeah. Okay. And this one I am so glad you brought this. This is Paleta de la Rosa. Yes, Paleta de la Rosa. I love it. World out. This is. I mean, I can only describe it as chemical ref-frubed mollipop. But it's so delicious and you can't stop. No. I mean, you just keep going. And on one side, it looks like almost like the cream circle. Sorry, I want to say. And then the other side is a combination of that cream circle, but then it's bright red, life seabird almost. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It is the red life seabird. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to remember the kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Just out on the. This just feels. It's really good. My heart's f*cking like mine. Now it gets only thing. So good. But this reminds me of what you might refer to as carbonic and something like blogellate or even like since so coming from South Africa. Oh, totally. And the last one. Ancho chile. Oh, yeah. I love anything spicy even if it's just smelling it. The very first time I thought about this was one of the first times I tasted Olds' Repordeaux. And I had probably about a week I don't know exactly where I had just gone one of those hot chocolates with ancho chile. I looked at Brooklyn. So you know, those fancy coffee shops. And it reminded me of that immediately. And I got ancho chile. I called it ever since then. That's some of these are hard like I'm not going to call it that I don't say when I'm blinding. Yeah. Bajolate. But ancho chile is one of those that I actually use when light tasting that way in which the green chili notes from pierazines evolve into something totally different. Just kind of. It just spicy in a different way. Prickly almost. Totally. And there is something like that smells kind of sweet. Yeah. Maybe like maybe we'd concentrated berries from a warm vintage. So I totally get what you're saying. So that mixed with pierazine tone. Totally word out. Yeah. And these are dry too. Sun dried. So that that the warm translates. That's what I love. Everything really just translates. Everything shows up. I love how you're able to take every part of who you are to apply it to wine even in making the decision of being sober. Thank you. We've come. And so Abe, I'm going to wrap this up. But I really love their chat so much. The fact that we can come together at this table. will say, "Well, works for me. May not work for you. Why?" and yet be able to share the presence of blind. That's beautiful. That's life. That's the world of blind and why we love it so much. It was so great to talk to you and thank you so much for sharing your experience with me, with us. And hopefully others are inspired by our conversation and we can find out what really works for that. [BLANK_AUDIO]