Episode 2 - Vaccines in Pregnancy ~ Dr. Stuart Fischbein

Hello and welcome to the vibrant world of the Duelist Uncensored podcast. Duelist Uncensored will be hosted by two awesome duelists, me, Maran from Duelist Duelist Duelist, and my incredible Duelist sister and co-host, Sammy from Sammy Griffin Burst Support. Together we're diving into everything from birth to death in all the wild moments in between. This podcast is not your typical journey. It's a blend of entertainment, education, and spirit of conversation that aims to entertain you and lighten you and stimulate your critical thinking. We're here to inspire you, challenge your perspective, and share the joy the wisdom that comes from our collective experiences. So whether you are a Sieben's birth enthusiast, a curious mind, or someone just embarking on this fascinating journey, join us as we unravel the mysteries of life in the most authentic, unfiltered way. So strap on in to Duelist Uncensored where no topic is off limits and every conversation is an adventure. Enjoy the ride! Welcome to Duelist Uncensored. I am your co-host today, Sammy, and I'm here with my lovely co-host, Maran. How are you today, Maran? I'm good. I'm looking forward to this episode. I've been looking forward to it quite a while, so yeah, I'm excited. I am so excited. We had a bit of a. what would you call it? Like this big life-changing moment last Friday when we talked to someone very, very special. Yeah, it was incredible. Yes, so Dr. Stew, I've been fan-crushing on him for quite a while. Same. I absolutely love everything that comes out of this guy's mouth. I know. He's just freaking amazing with the knowledge that he has and just the way he talks and the things that he says in such a well-articulated way that I just love everything about him. And the empathy that he has for birth workers in the room at the moment, and he actually believes us. And I think that's the thing. This OBGYN who actually gets it. I remember I was listening to a story that he said once, and a doula wrote in and she said, "My client got offered an epidural 10 times and then she finally accepted." And he said, "I know that sounds like an exaggeration, but I bet it's not." And he believes us because we have these unbelievable things happen every time we go into hospital. Yeah. And I feel like because he's just so authentic and real people really connect to him and really resonate with him. And I think that's the difference is today a lot of people aren't heard and aren't listened to. And there's kind of no one to turn to in this kind of worthy world that is on the same level. And I feel he brings his knowledge and his wisdom from years and kind of decades of experience. And then he puts it into plain language for the everyday person to understand. I really love that about him that he just doesn't look down on people. He's just numbing, he's just great. Absolutely. So he's got his podcast with Bliss, but I'm sure you've got a wonderful introduction there. Yeah. The Dr. Stu. Well, Dr. Stu, he's been a doctor for quite a while. So he's been focused on community centered care. He was an associate of the American College of Structrics and Gynecology. And he basically published a book called Fearless Pregnancy Wisdom and Reassurance from a doctor, a midwife and a mom, which again says how much he just really is just resonating with the everyday person. He has contributed extensively to the field with peer-reviewed papers such as Home Birth with an Obstetrician and Breach Birth at Home. And that was outcomes of 60 Breach and 109 Sepalic Plant Home and Birth Center births. After he completed his residency at Cedar Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, California, he then dedicated 24 years to assisting women in hospital birthing. And when we talk to him, he really kind of explains what hospital birthing was like at that time. And for the past 13 years, he then transitioned to serving as a Home Birth Obstetrician. So working closely with midwives, and then he now no longer practices as a Home Birth Obstetrician, but he now kind of, I think he consults every once in a while for various clients who contact him, but he mostly focuses on education, advocacy work, and being an educator, particularly focusing on reteaching Breach because that's kind of a lost training and twin birth skills. So he's promoting respect, and normalcy for birth, and emphasizing informed consent. But on top of all that he's doing, he also has this amazing podcast, which is birthing instincts with midwife Bliss Young, which they kind of call her goddess Bliss. She's so lovely. I love her. Is it she's I love her? We should get her on as well. We should get her on. I love her just as much as Dr. Shee. Yeah, and she has some really love her birth stories, like I'm just getting to know her, so she kind of tells the stories because I actually find that I learn quite a lot from her stories and how she explains things. Yeah, so he's doing that as well, which I don't even know how he has the time for that, to be honest. And then he's coming to Australia in September, which we are going to. We are so excited for that workshop, because as he said, even though we're not midwives, and we're not putting ourselves in positions where we are there as the only care provider with a breach birth. That's, yeah, it's just that help. More and I are working, but as he said, everyone needs those skills, because I mean, you were just at an unassisted birth unintentionally the other day. And if that and I have been at home births where they have been surprised breaches. So if you are the only person there, having those skills could be. Yeah, yeah, really, really important. I was very hesitant on going to such a training because I'm not a free birth doula and the minute I see anything on view. I call the paramedics because we're just not in a position to be able to assist in a situation like that. But I think I find that his even by talking to him, I really got encouraged to go to the workshop because I find that whether he's talking about breach or talking about anything to do in maternity care, there's just so much knowledge to begin by just listening to his perspective on birth. And to be honest with his perspective on anything to do with maternity care, so it's just fascinating. So I was just like, I just want to attend to be able just to get an absorb as much knowledge as I can. And yeah, that's how I've been practicing probably for the last decades. Yeah, so it's just something that I really want to go to. For me to just to be in a room with him. And I just want to like acknowledge how amazing he was to give us the time we are starting this podcast and what a bang to start with. And he not only did he do the interview with us, he sat on after with us for say 20 minutes, half an hour just having a chat. And he really did listen to us and give us that time. So he's incredible. Yeah, he is. And I really appreciate it. Before we get into that episode, Sammy, have you been lately? I have been good. I've got my coffee here and I've got you here. So I'm very happy. I'm day one of my bleed though. So also feeling that as well. Are you feeling a mind blank on the day one of your bleed? 100%. If we were doing this episode on ovulation day, I would be sharp as attack. Yeah, yeah. I had this moment yesterday at the shops with my daughter. So she's two. She'll be three soon. And we're in the parent toilet. And this is a very universal experience. I'm sure, but it's the first time it's happened to me. And they put the little baby or the toddler toilet next to the door with the big buttons that open. So we all know where this is going. And the parent toilet for some reason, a meter away from those buttons. I was just doing my business doing a way didn't even realize. And she's pressed the green button to open the door. That thing flings open so quick. So I did this weird stand up thing. Just trying to wipe and like pull my pants up. It's actually opening into the shopping center. It's not like in a hallway. Fun. So that happened. And then I want and then the door starts to close. And I've got my pants on by then. I've washed my hands. I had my coffee in my hand. And I thought the door closing would have a sensor. So I put my coffee cup into the between the door and the wall as it's closing. There's no sensor. So the door crushes my coffee cup. My coffee's everywhere. So I've just had my. I just. And it's the day before my bleed. So I just had that. That was the first time I've shown my. That's been on the embarrassing story. Oh, she knew she was she looked like, oh my God, Mama, are you okay? Oh, it's like let's go to the fairy show. I'm fine. I'm fine. So that happened. I think that's has. Did that ever happen to you when you had little kids? Oh my God. I've had so many things with the girls. I've had ones where I'm standing in line at the checkout. And then the show go, Mommy, what color underwear are you wearing today? And she'll just lift a few. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What is she thinking like the stuff that they used to do? Yeah. I don't know how I survived those earlier. Yeah, yeah. It's just been eight years. So, a whole other story. Yeah. Yeah, it's just when you don't realize that they're under your dress. And everyone can see Andes. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, yeah. How are you, Marin? I'm having a big week. So my mom arrived last night from overseas. And I'm just so excited to see her. She's going to be here for a couple of months, which is great. You don't really notice or realize how much you miss family until they come and you kind of like, oh, I can actually touch you. It's not through FaceTime. And it's really hard being in another country without any family support. And so that's really great. And then my eldest is turning 20 this week. Wow. Yeah. So it's kind of like a realization of like, she's not in her teens anymore. She's like, she's changing postcode to a different number. And it's scary. I feel like I'm not ready for it in one kind of one respect. I'm just kind of like, I still feel like I'm in mother zone. But I'm kind of reaching that, you know, I'm in my 40s. And I'm kind of reaching that next stage of my life where they don't need me as much. And it's hard. Like, you come to that realization that, you know, yeah, like it's it's a different part of parenthood. So I'm kind of getting used to it slowly. I'm telling my way into it. Yeah. I can imagine my daughter's about to three. And I feel like I'm not ready for that. I can't even imagine 20. Yeah. But when you say you're in your 40s, you're a young 40s. I'm very young. But like this year, I'm going to be 44. And October. And I, I'm like, I'm like six years away from 50. Like, what the hell? You know that I just never imagined. Like when you think when you're like in your like 20s to early 30s, kind of you think like, oh 50 people who are 50 are like, oh the fuck they're old. I know. Right. So it's like damn. I'm like slowly creeping up there. I don't like it. I know. Right. Yes. It just keeps rolling on. I know. It just keeps me going so quickly. I feel these last couple of years have just gone so quickly. And I've just been like busy with family and busy with work. And it's just kind of crept in there. And I like, oh my god, are you wake up in your 44? That's right. Yeah. So it's a big week for me. So I'm going to just take some deep breaths. Awesome. I'm so happy that your mom's here. I'm so good that your daughter gets to have her here with her birthday. Yeah. It's awesome. Yeah. All right. Should we get into the episode, Tammy? Let's do it. I'm so excited. All right. Enjoy the episodes. Well, hi, Dr. Stu. Thank you for joining us today. We're still honored to have you with us. Well, thank you guys. Thank you guys. It's yesterday here. I always kind of get a kick out of that. Yeah. We're a day ahead of you. Yeah. But that's about the only thing you're ahead of. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I think we're on par with everything else. Or-- Yeah. And going in the wrong direction. But let's start off on that note. Yes, definitely. Let's start off on a positive note. Hi, guys. Good to see you. Good to be here. It's beautiful afternoon here in Southern Utah. Yeah. Oh, good. What's weather like in Utah at the moment? Oh, right now it's great. It's the hyzer and the low 70s here. We're at about 5,000 feet. So it's a low 70s and at night it gets down to the low 40s. And it's beautiful. It's perfect. It's just the kind of weather that I grew up with. More or less, I grew up in the northern part of the United States. But the beauty of the desert, if you like that kind of beauty, it's stunning. It's all around you. It's all around you. And I feel good here. Yeah. It's a good place in the world to be in. I think Utah is really nice. It's a location in the world. It's full of landscapes and greenery and beauty. I love Utah. Yeah, not a lot of greenery. But I love it. There's no traffic. There's very few people. People mind their own business here. It's not Los Angeles. I was there for 40 years. That was enough. I miss it very rarely. Right now, I'm probably going to miss it a little bit because the Stanley Cup hockey playoffs are going to start. I always like to go into the games, but that's okay. I can watch them on TV. You don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've been a bit of a confession. I'm a huge fan crushing on you right now, Dr. Sede. That's where I was going as well. I was like, I just love listening to the start of your podcast. And you're like, OK, I'm traveling to here today or wherever. I just could listen to you and bliss talk all day. And sometimes I do. Yeah. And I love it. I love the part where you're completely honest about any subject. There's no filter. And I love that. Very little filter. Bliss keeps me-- She keeps you in check. On the path, but very little filter. That's very-- I'm honored, guys, for you to say that. Because listen, I'm only who I am now because of the midwives that came before me. I didn't learn what I know now in medical school or residency. Yeah. And wasn't that in your latest episode shown the history of obstetrics and how it was taken from midwives? That was an excellent episode. I've just listened to it around, taking kids to Kindie and things. But it was so good. I love listening to the history of that. Yeah. If it's to those people to take a deeper dive into the history, it's great. I mean, we just scratched the surface of it. And obviously, we couldn't cover everything in a little over an hour. But I just found it fascinating that the doctors would train with midwives and then come and start teaching as if they knew everything. And they learned everything they knew from midwives. I see. Most of what they did before they knew-- they learned from midwives was worse than the midwife outcomes. And yet they've taken over the profession. And they've now are sitting judgment of how you guys or how midwives practice. That sort of thing. So it's all backwards. But that fits with the way the world is. Yeah. And you're a bit of a unicorn in the birthday world. You stand alone there. I saw my dad. There's a few of us. I've just taken a path where I've outspoken. I have a unique perspective because there are very few people who have done what I've done the way I've done it. I started out as a very medicalized obi just like the kind of people that we sort of mock a little bit with our dumb doctor, dogma talk and things like that. I was the guy wearing the hazmat suit. With the woman up in stirrups completely covered in blue drapes, washing them on and off with beta dine. Only to catch a baby and immediately cut the cord and walk the baby over to the warmer instead of showing it to the mother. I could go on and on and on. So I spent a little over 28 years in the hospital based birthing model. And then I left and I spent 12 years plus in the home birthing model. So that's where it makes me more of a unicorn in that regard. Not so much that I speak out, but I mean, because there's a lot of guys speaking out now, especially. And when I say guys, by the way, that's a midwestern term for men and women. It's not just guys. That's just the way we talk. But there's a lot of people since since the COVID debacle. There's a lot of people that have come forward in a very brave, not necessarily know what you want. And although there are some, but there are many people out there speaking, but very few have the perspective to speak from living in both worlds. And so they'll be talking as if they're an expert in birthing. And they'll be sitting in judgment of midwives having never watched a midwife work, have never been to a home birth, have never had an hour prenatal visit. As a matter of fact, I still remember when I first started practicing like a midwife, we used to joke with my midwife friends. It's like, what do you guys talk about for an hour? You know, it'd be 20 minutes. You know, it'd be out of things to talk about. And then over the time, I got better at it. And my appointments would then last 45 minutes to 60 minutes. And sometimes we'd run out of time. But initially, I was so used to the eight minute prenatal visit that I had no idea what we're going to talk about for that long. This is a different world. And one of the things that I've come to realize recently is, you know, they talk about standard of care and they talk about community standard. And we're being judged by people who aren't in our community. And they practice a standard that we don't practice. And yet we're supposed to be in there. We're supposed to follow their standards. Even when their standards lead down a road that doesn't do very well. So I've gotten more analytical as time goes by to really see where the problems lie. How we change that, I don't know. I mean, I, you know, I'm not going to be a bad guy. these people are embedded. And when you have power and when you have money, you don't surrender easily no matter how bad your outcomes are. Right. And when the hospital is same when you were practicing, like it was, was it the same as what it is today? Has anything taken? No, no. Well, again, I mean, I can only say from my experience, but you know, I trained at Cedar Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles. And as part of my training program, I spent four months at LA County, USC. And in that time, LA County, USC was the busiest hospital in the country. And it, well, we were doing about 22,000 births a year. So if you break that down, that's about 65 babies a day in our hospital. Just think about your local hospital and try to handle 65 babies in one day. And we were doing it every single day. So we got an education that you can't get anymore with that kind of a volume. And it was also a time where, you know, maybe ethics were a little shakeier. And we could do things that you wouldn't do today. You wouldn't get away with today. You know, we put four steps on women that didn't need four steps. And the anesthesia residents give epidurals to women who didn't have a choice of asking whether they wanted one or not. It was, you know, it was a county hospital. A lot of the women that came there were from a foreign country that didn't speak English. It was, you know, it was a different time. You can't get away with that. And then at Cedar, Cedar was a private hospital. And so most of the doctors there were private practicing physicians in solo or group practice, but they weren't employees of the medical system. They were self-employed people who got to practice the way they wanted to practice. And over the 40 years that I've been involved in this in women's healthcare, I've just watched that disappear. And what happens now is that most doctors and nurses and our employees of the system. And once you're an employee of the system, you no longer have clarity as to what your fiduciary duty is. You know, when you're a private practice physician, you can have, you can have ethical faux-paws, but you're ideally your ethics and your belongs to the taking care of your patient. But when you're paid by a third party, there's a conflict of interest there. And I see that now. And doctors will not offer legitimate ethical choices to women because the system they work in doesn't allow them to do that. For example, V-back, just simple thing like V-back. If your institution doesn't want to support V-back, you have to skew your counseling to tell the women in your practice that V-back is not accepted, it's dangerous, and you make stuff up simply to funnel them down the path you want them to take. And I don't think that that was the case. I think there was a lot of problems with the system when I was there. There were rogue doctors who had terrible bedside manner and informed consent and asking permission to touch and things. That was like what I have to ask you permission. It was a different, it was a different, it was a very patriarchal system then. And now it's it's got different problems now. I don't think it's better. I don't think it's gotten better. And certainly the outcomes. When I first started in practice, the C-section rig was barely over single digits. And now it's 32-33. In England last year, it was 39 percent of women. I don't know what it is in Australia, but I think it was 35-35-36 percent in Australia. We're on pile with the U.S. That's crazy. That one out of every three women can't deliver babies as nature intended. And more than half of women don't go into labor spontaneously anymore. They're the reduced or they're scheduled for C-sections. And that, and this gets me to one of my biggest points when I teach, I go around the country, I do a whole lecture on why things are the way they are. And one of the things I talk about are the three trilogies of bias that call them, stage one thinking, confirmation bias, and cognitive dissonance. And stage one thinking is that thinking that, you know, if we just start putting fetal monitors on everybody, we'll lower the rate of cerebral palsy. How about testing it first? How about testing that theory first? Because all it did was raise the C-section rate. The rate of cerebral palsy didn't really drop significantly at all. And I list a whole series of things that have happened in the medical world, whether it's something like philidamide or diethylstylbesterol or vaccinating women in pregnancy or the freedman curve. Like, of course, all women who are primips should dilate it exactly the same rate. That's a given, right? That's what nature, how nature designed it. And if you're not dilating at that rate, then you need to be augmented. That was the theory. That's what we were taught. But if you have a curve, the curve is the median. So that means that 50% of women are at or below the curve, which then means that 50% of women are not the norm. And therefore, they need to be intervened upon. This is the thinking. No one said to the doctor freedman or anybody else, excuse me, excuse me, doctor, isn't really reasonable to think that all first time mom should dilate it exactly the same rate. And even if they did, it fit the model by which they want to practice, so they adopted it right away. That's partly of that's something called confirmation bias is watching or picking the things that make you feel good or meet the model by which you want to practice and ignoring the things that don't. And we've seen that play out in the last three or four years because of COVID. And there are still people that are pushing these things on pregnant women and people in general. When the risk to young children from this man-made disease is essentially zero. And yet my country and my college, the American College of OBGYN, is still suggesting that it's great to vaccinate pregnant women with something that's never been tested for safety. And none of the vaccines, by the way, have ever been tested in a randomized, double-blinded placebo-controlled trial. There are people that will write me periodically and say, well, what about this one test that was done? Yeah, well, I looked at that test. It was performed by Pfizer. And they had 15 people in this group and 15 people in that group. And by the way, shouldn't it be all the vaccines? Shouldn't they all be tested? Shouldn't we, before we initiate the arrived trial, I mean, I'm really going off on a tangent now, okay. So, before we decide that it's a good idea to induce all women at 39 weeks, should we not like think about the downstream consequences of doing that? Yeah. Yeah. And I think you should. Should before we section all breaches, should we think about the downstream consequences of doing that? One of the things that people listen to me, I say this all the time, I do a lot of consults for breaches. And even though I'm not clinically practicing anymore, I mean, very rarely. But one of the things I found when I would see a new consult for breach birth, which was very telling, was that whether it was a first-time mom or a second-time mom or a third-time mom, it didn't matter. They would come in and I would ask them this question and the answer would always be exactly the same. I never had any deviation from it. And the question was this, did your doctor who recommends that you have a C-section for your breach baby ever ask you if you wanted more children? Yeah. And the answer is universally no. Because all that matters to that doctor is getting that baby out. And what happens downstream, the fact that they're putting all her future babies at greater risk, they're putting the mother at greater risk, they're putting the baby, they're sectioning at greater risk of chronic problems because of the microbiome and the way the baby is delivered. That's not baby going through the natural process of a nature had designed over eons. These things aren't thought about. No. The model that I use in my teaching is that all that matters in the medical model is a live baby in the bassenet and how the baby gets in the bassenet is not their concern. And especially the way medicine is compartmentalized is once that baby is born, that obstetrician is no longer responsible for that baby. It belongs to the pediatric department now. Whereas in the midwifery model, it's all one. Yeah. It's a unity between mother and baby. Right. So, doctors, how did you come to this way of thinking from being like in such a big hospital doing so many bursts every day, not really thinking about it, just pumping babies in and out every day, with like how did you come to the kind of thinking about a different way or kind of more of a woman centered approach to birth? Okay. Well, I have to go back in time and say that it's probably the way I was raised by my parents and just my curiosity. I was, and this is a composite memory, so it's not exactly every but my memory of being a kid was always asking my mom why. Yeah. You know, you need to do this. Well, why? And eventually parents, like most parents, get it, my mom got exasperated. And so she'd say something like, because I said so. And because I said so, it became a mantra for me that I never really felt right about. Doing something because you're telling me to do it doesn't make it right. So I've always had that tenant, but you get sort of indoctrinated in medical school and residency. You just want to get through your days. You think that you're learning from the brightest people. And so you pick up that stuff, but that little back thing never went away. And I have the good fortune of coming out of residency, opening my own private practice, sharing space with three other wonderful gentlemen who let me be me. And I, in order that in those days you didn't come out and get a salary and get a job. You came out and you built your practice from scratch. So I made money assisting them in surgery or I made money covering them when they went on vacation. And then I had to hustle and I worked three free clinics. I was the medical director of three free clinics. And I covered emergency rooms, just working shifts just to get your practice going. And gradually you meet people and then patients would come into your practice. And so I started to meet people in my community. And soon after I started my practice, I was approached by local midwives and asked if I would take their home birth transports. And that was the fortuitous moment. And I didn't say yes because I thought that home birth or midwifery was a good idea. I'm sure that I was pretty close to thinking like every other OB who we tend to make a caricature of who thinks it's crazy at home deliveries for pizza, that sort of thing. But that was the thing. And I took them on because I wanted to make money. But I had time when they transferred these women to the hospital, usually it was just for exhaustion or stalled labor and they just needed an epidural and patocin and most of them would go on to deliver vaguely. But there'd be hours where we'd be sitting around and because I wasn't that busy in those days, I would just sit at the hospital. And I hang out with a midwife in the doctor's lounge. The woman would get her epidural, she'd fall asleep and the midwife would come and we'd hang out and go down to the lunchroom cafeteria or whatever and we'd hang out. And I just started to listen. I started to hear different ways of doing things. And it resonated with me in a way that things that I was doing that I learned at the hospital did not. It just made much more sense to my little kid why person. And I think that that's, you know, I mean, it makes it for a good story. If nothing, if it's not completely true, it makes for a really good story. And so that began to change the way I approach things. And of course that cost friction in the institutions that I worked at. Yeah. And, you know, I won't go into the whole story. I mean, I did start a collaborative practice with two certified nurse midwives at a different hospital after 10 years because. Seaters didn't allow midwives to have privileges in those days and we had a 15 year run where we did really good stuff, but we were never really accepted in the community. We were always picked on an ostracize by the, what I would call the good old boy network and the good old boy network by the way, contained plenty of good old women. Who just practice just like the good old boys and they hung to their turf and they made it difficult for us. And so eventually I had a choice of fighting them or leaving and I chose wisely because I had some wise advisors. And I started to go and do home birthing, but I have to tell you maybe you've heard me say this, but after 25 years of working with midwives. And starting my home birth practice with them, I had yet to go to a home birth. I had never been to a home birth. Even after 25 years of backing them. And so the first couple I was a little, I was quite frank, I was a nervous. Yeah. Like, well, what happens if you know, I was, I was kind of that person that asked that question like all the dads do. You know, what happens if this goes wrong? What happens to that goes wrong? Or, you know, you don't have a button on the wall. You can push and have the crash team come in. No, we don't. Yeah. But then I began to learn that of course things don't go wrong. At any, and anywhere close to the rate that they do in the hospital is simply by the model way which midwives are practicing where they're not meddling with mother nature. So, you know, do bad things happen at home? Of course they do. But in equal cohorts of women, not to the same level that bad things happen in the hospital. Yeah. And there is so much data in the world literature that supports that. And yet, the organizations that run our, you know, that run our practices like a cog or anzog or whatever they'll cherry pick the data that says that home birth is dangerous and, you know, they'll ignore the papers that don't. And so it gets back to those that trilogy of bias. And that one is that's partly cognitive dissonance. Yeah, which is where you have you, you can see that home birth is pretty successful. And that makes you very uncomfortable. So you have to find a way to vilify it. For those that support it. Yeah. And that's, that's you in nature. It's good. It's on. It's in every aspect of our lives and people just don't recognize it because we're not taught that kind of stuff in elementary school or high school anymore. No, you know, we're not taught civics. We're not taught logic. Yeah. And we're not taught to ask why like when you said the why that really kind of stood out for me because when I was pregnant with my first daughter Bella nearly 20 years ago. I didn't ask why when it came to birth. But when I was pregnant with her, I was thinking about what vaccines is she going to get when she's born. I don't know why, but that was my main focus more than the birth itself. And when I delve deeper into the research about that. The information that I got was more frightening than giving her like not giving her vaccine. So I was like, I'd rather not give her a vaccine. We eat really healthy. We live in a society that has clean water where we have, you know, good amenities and things like that to make sure that she has, you know, a very like good hygiene and things like that. We're not living in a third world country. And it just did not make sense for me. First of all, to give her the head be at birth, which was just sounded completely ridiculous to me to give her that. And then the vaccine schedule, when I looked at the vaccine schedule, I was like, like holy shit, how much stuff are they injecting this kid with like it just did not sit right with me and I just couldn't do it. But I am the minority and not many people do that or take the time to look into the research. And especially through COVID, I was listening a lot to Dr. Peter McCollitt and he was talking a lot about COVID vaccine, but he was also talking to generalizing, talking about vaccines in general. And he's not an anti-vaxer. And I didn't consider myself an anti-vaxer, but you know, I am, I don't like vaccines. I don't like putting something into my body that's foreign and I don't need it. I believe in my body's immunity and I take really good care of my body. But yeah, this really kind of, it's something that I feel like parents are not taking deep consideration of. You know, I mean, like what are your thoughts on that? Well, I think you know them, but that's a good question. That's the question. Is it why do they do these things? I truly believe that the medical community is brainwashed early on and the powers that be are bought off. They have to be because they're not evil people, but what they're doing is evil. It defies any sort of deep dive into the, not even a deep dive with superficial dive into the history of the vaccines and you go back a hundred years ago. And yeah, there were diseases that people were dying of. All right, but most of those diseases were on the outs because of clean water, sewage, better, better standard of living. They were. And there are diseases now that are running rampant. We have a chronic disease rate and children are not a chronic disease rate, but an autoimmune disease rate or chronic illness rate and children that's near half of all children when it used to be in single digits. And there are diseases like Crohn's disease and other diseases that didn't exist 50 to 100 years ago. You can't find them in the world literature. Same thing goes with autism. The, you know, I've, you know, I've just done so much reading in the last two years, which I was inspired. I think the first book I read on this was dissolving illusions by Susan Humphreys, but, but I've read six or seven other books since that time and they all convinced me that, you know, that routine. That routine vaccination is an abomination. It doesn't save lives. Yeah, all right, selective vaccination would save lives. But mandating vaccines. Doesn't cause doesn't help your immunity. It doesn't do anything. In fact, it makes kids sicker. And no one's, you know, there are so many books out there on heavy metals. You know, it. around the turn of the 19th, around the turn of the 1900s, you know, they had teething powder for babies that had mercury in it. They used to spray for pesticides and herbicides that had contained heavy metals in it. Arsonic was one. We now inject aluminum. I don't even know there's a safe level of aluminum, but we're giving a newborn baby for a disease they can't possibly have 250 micrograms of aluminum in the first hour of life. This is that's the dumbest vaccine of all, but it's not the worst vaccine of all. I think between the COVID vaccine and HPV vaccine, we've got a close tie between the two worst vaccines ever. You know, we could spend the whole hour talking about this, but I would just tell listeners, before you give your kid any vaccine, ask yourself a question, right? Is it safe? And not because somebody says it's safe and effective. Is it safe? Has it been tested? Because ultimately a basic tenant in life, and especially in medicine, is that when you're gonna do something that deviates from mother nature's design, it's not mother nature that has to prove it's safe. It's the intervention that has to prove it that it's safe. And none of these vaccines have ever done that. And certainly none of them have ever done it individually and yet our organizations are telling pregnant women to get six vaccines, some of which contain aluminum while they're pregnant, never testing it. There is a thing that's been, you know, kind of like natural immunity was always thought to be the standard. Until it became inconvenient. And then they told you that vaccine immunity was better than natural immunity, which of course is a lie. It's just an outright lie. Yeah. But there is something that was called the precautionary principle that's been running through medicine for all and other research forever. And that is you do not test substances on pregnant women, newborns and lactating women. You just do not do that. And yet we violated that. And now we're violating it right and left. It went out the window completely in COVID. Yeah. And we're seeing more chronic illnesses in children. We're seeing more problems in moms. I'm going to do a, on my Patreon segment this week, I'm actually going to talk about the fact that, that these aluminum containing vaccines, we haven't seen the worst of it yet. Because what's happening now is the, is women who, when they were children, on the vaccine schedule, and got all these aluminum containing vaccines, and probably have little granulomas and other things stored where they have aluminum walled off. And they're doing okay. But now these women are the women that are having babies. And that aluminum that's in their body may very well get broken down by certain hormones like relaxin and be released into their body while they're pregnant. So they may not get any vaccines while they're pregnant. They may not vaccinate their newborn. But the vaccines they got when they were a child, may very well affect their children. And nobody's looking. Because there's no money in not giving vaccines. And it always boils down to the money. And people, and people, there's a huge cognitive distance wall here because there are people who took vaccines because they were, they thought they were a great idea or they were told they were a great idea. And they can't fathom the idea that they actually did harm to themselves or their babies. So they have to vilify people like me who say that, well, look at the research. There's no good data to support giving a teed app shot to a pregnant woman. She doesn't need the tetanus. She doesn't need the diphtheria. If you wanted her to have the pitasis, then okay. So make up her tussis shot, test it for safety and give it to her but don't give her all this other crap in there. And then if she's pregnant this year and she gets a teed app shot and then she's pregnant again next year, what is her doctor teller? Get another teed app shot. Well, if you're not pregnant, your teed app shot's good for what? 10 years, I don't know. Forever? I don't really know. Why are we giving pregnant women two teed app shots in two years? - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. I did a thing on the Zika virus on the Patreon. Zika virus was this really scary thing back in 2014, I think it was. But it wasn't the Zika virus that caused these anomalies in these pitasis. It was very likely, well, I don't want to get into it here, but people can go to the Patreon and find that episode and look at it. And it was probably simultaneously, they were getting shots for pertussis that contained aluminum. And this happened in Brazil. This is where it started in Brazil, because Zika had been around forever in smaller islands. And Zika wasn't causing a microcephaly up until 2014. All of a sudden, it's causing microcephaly. And all of a sudden the world goes crazy. And people who trained for the Olympics, all their lives didn't go to Brazil, because they were told that Zika virus was so dangerous. And their wives' quarantine, their husbands are vice versa. 'Cause they traveled to a place that Zika was. We were fed a bunch of bullshit. Sorry, if I said that. And it's hard to believe that these people that used to be trusted, the medical profession, would do this. But they have. - So I want you to know the difference. Like if I'm an everyday mom wanting to know whether I should take certain vaccines during pregnancy, and I'm looking online, all you get is censored information, like information that's very biased, like how are they supposed to know what's right and what's wrong? You know what I mean? - Well, you can't. You have to read. - Yeah. - You can't Google search it, and you can't go to Wikipedia. You can't. Those are bought off. They're bought off by Pfizer or whatever governments, who are bought off by Pfizer or Acog or Ransog, who's bought off by Pfizer. I'm picking on Pfizer, all the drug companies do it. - Yeah. - But you can't. You can't get your information there. You have to look and think about common sense. Does it make sense to give all our children healthier now than they were 30 years ago? And you know who did the work? Because it would be real easy for your country or my country to take a look because they have registries. They know kids that have had the full vaccine schedule, and they know which kids have had no vaccines. And they could look at that. But your country and my country won't do that. But you know who did it? Some countries did it, and then Robert Kennedy Jr. and Brian Hooker recently put out a book called Vax Unvax, which looks at those classically, if you're really curious about the benefit of vaccines, then the Vax kid should be healthier than the Unvax kids. And the truth is in over 19 different categories of health, the Unvax and the kids were healthier. From eczema to ADHD, to autism, to colitis, to Crohn's disease, to autoimmune, other autoimmune disorders, the Vax kids were worse off than the Unvaxinated kids. And people that were vaccinating against diseases that are not fatal. Now listen, if your parents have hepatitis, getting a hepatitis vaccine or something like that, I mean, that's not gonna help you as a newborn. You need to age big, you need immune gobulin. But you get that, you know, selectively vaccinating people makes sense. I mean, I don't know that I would have done this now, if I would, would I know now? But when I did some volunteer work in Vietnam six, seven years ago, I think it was that long ago already. And I was, I had to get a yellow fever vaccine to go there. All right, I did it. And I didn't catch yellow fever, so maybe it worked. I don't know. And I took malaria pills when I was there. So that's prophylactic, that makes sense. - Yeah. - All right, I don't know that I was at risk of yellow fever. I don't really know if it's still endemic, but that's what the group made me do to do it. And I was gonna do it. And I, you know, I didn't even, and I didn't even research the yellow fever vaccine. Now I, you know, I haven't looked at it either. It's not in generally in the books because it's such a, it's not one of the things on the schedule. But I would probably be appalled at what's in it if I looked at it. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. Well, again, I would proudly state that I'm anti-vax in the way that people think about it, which is mandatory scheduled vaccinations in order to live in society or go to school. - Yeah. - And anybody that's not, I really think they're out of their mind. Or they're just misguided by the people who are out of their mind. - Yeah. - Mm-hmm. And I would challenge anybody to have a conversation about that. I'm not I'm not an expert. I'm not, you know, look, they say, well, if you're not an immunologist, you can't speak like that. Well, Fauci isn't an immunologist and he was speaking about it. You guys know who Fauci is, right? Yeah. In Australia. Okay. Right. Right. Yeah. It's the most, I should have a most wanted poster, but. Anyway, nonetheless, I'm not an expert, but you don't have to be an expert in to study to read books and come to your own conclusions. And again, that's what I would tell parents. There's nothing more important than the life and health of your children. So don't just take your doctor's word for it. Your doctor who may be paid off by somebody or maybe an employee who's being told by his boss that, you know, if we give 80% of our kids a vaccine, we get a bonus from from the drug company. Or, or his salary next year is dependent on how many people he gets vaccinated and you'll never know that. But these I'm not making this stuff up. This is actually true. So why would you trust them? You shouldn't. And it's too bad. It's too bad. You get, you know, when you're buying a car, some people just go buy a car. Other people, they read consumer reports. They go test drive them. They actually lift the hood and look underneath. And they know, you know, and they do some investigation. You do more investigation when you're buying a car than you do about giving your kids vaccine. Yeah. For giving birth in some cases. And what giving birth? Oh, well, yeah, for sure. Oh, yeah, we're on that. That's right. We're talking about birth. I forgot. I guess you're coming to Australia in August and September for the reteach breach workshop. And we are so excited. So for anyone who wants to come to that, that's at birthinginstinct.com/events for those days. It is such a fantastic gift that you put into the world, Dr. Stu. I want to know, do you have a rough percentage breakdown of what type of providers come to your workshops? Like obstetricians midwives, doleless, like who is who are the main people who come? It's 95% midwives or other birth workers. I would say that more doleless come than doctors come. And I understand why. First of all, residency programs should take. There's no there's no reason that a physician who's who's spending all his life wanting to be an obstetrician and going through all those hours and all that training. It shouldn't be furious with their academic program if they come out of training and not knowing how to do a breach delivery or how to pull out a second twin or turn a twin around or do a version or put on four steps. These are the skills that make my profession unique. But residency programs are very proprietary. They have the people that run them have huge egos. And they don't want people from the outside coming in and teaching, especially rogue people like me who didn't follow the standard path who gave up my board certification. I found no use for it after 20 years. It didn't matter to me anymore. I was a little bit more than I thought. Everyone took it up straight away. What was it 40% increase in the first month? Again, that is skewing your counseling. It's unethical. It's using subtle coercion to get people to. By the way, the dead baby card is not subtle coercion. The dead baby card is actual coercion. It's okay. To get you to go down the path they want you to take. That doctor is unethical. If a doctor tells you that breach is dangerous and you shouldn't have a breach delivery and you should have a section. have a section and that's all they say. That doctor either doesn't know anything. or that doctor's purposely being unethical. And you know, that's not an opinion. It sounds like, you know, I've gotten more firm as I get older in my belief that we gotta stop being nice. Again, we can't just give, we can't be giving the benefit of the doubt anymore. It's obvious that they don't, they wouldn't give it to you. Yeah. They don't say, you know, you know, I'm not a big fan of home birth, but I understand there's a lot of good data out there about home birth. Maybe you should go check out those home birth midwives, you know, how many obese would say that? Not very many. Not very many. And it, but it's true. It's really true. They, they are so convinced that their interventions are, are necessary. Despite the fact that their outcomes are terrible, but their outcomes are not good, anybody with who could take a step back could see that. You have to almost be brainwashed, you have to be indoctrinated, you have to be an active admission to believe something that obvious. You just do. Yeah. I mean, sometimes the more, the more highly educated people are, the less wisdom that they have. And there's a, there's a famous quote in America from a guy named William Buckley, who used to be a host, a show on public television called "Firing Line," where a conservative and a liberal would debate. And it was actually a real conservative and a real liberal and it was a real honest debate. It wasn't name calling. It was, you know, he was a very eloquent speaker at a British accent. And at one point, he said something which is always resonated with me. He said, he would be rather be governed by the first 500 names in the Boston phone book than the entire faculty at Harvard University. Because there's more common sense in the plumbers and the bakers and the truck drivers and the Boston phone book, then there are people who go to academia and go to training to become really you know, wrong. Wrong. But they believe they're right. They have, they have very little self-awareness. Yeah. And they have such confidence. And you know, right now I'm speaking as if I'm confident, but I'm not practicing right now. And when I counsel women, I'm always telling them that, you know, I can't guarantee this and I don't know that. And and a confident person is willing to freely admit they don't know something. Whereas an insecure person will not. They'll act like they know stuff. And we don't teach people how to read people very well anymore. Or you know, the choices are being taken away from you. And when you have a government run healthcare system or whatever else, you know, you don't, you don't have a lot of choices. So some people, and again, we talk about this on the podcast all the time. You need to value the birth of your child like you value, you know, the home you're going to buy or the or the car you're going to buy or your or what you pay for your wedding. The wedding analogy, everybody knows that by now. You know, we don't we we abdicate that responsibility for one of the most important events in our life to a third party who doesn't give it two shits about you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we need to get up. I'm getting. I've gotten you got me a little fired up here. I think that we're losing critical thinking. We've kind of we're I feel like especially. Yeah, it's gone. It's lost. It's gone. Yeah, I can see that even in my own children, if they were not growing up in the house that they're growing up at the moment with two parents who are my husband and I are major critical thinkers. We question a lot of things, but if you don't grow in a household like that, you come into a world where you don't question things and you just accept the norm. You just go with a mainstream and when it comes to having a baby and getting pregnant and preparing for your birth, you just assume that the doctor knows best. And they're doing things in your best interest. And that's where I think like people in general need to use a little bit of critical thinking and kind of go, well, hold on. This is my body. This is my baby. Is are they just considering me like every other mom or are they taking the my situation into the equation or my personal kind of wishes and history and understanding of birth and things like that into the equation, but they don't. No, the system doesn't allow it. No, there's not time. It's a volume-based system. And the problem is, is the workers, the doctors, the nurses, the station secretaries, the philbotomists, they're just cogs in a wheel. People that benefit the most are always the managers and the third parties. People that own the nicest buildings that have the biggest salaries, the biggest 401Ks, the private jets, these are the guys that run insurance companies. These are your politicians. They have perks up the wazoo. People do the grunts on the front line are stuck with it. And the fact that you mandated your healthcare workers who worked for a year taking care of sick people with COVID, that they had to be vaccinated. Don't get us started on it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just healthy. I work as everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Teachers, police, yeah. We were locked in an island, doctor still. Yeah. We did. It didn't matter. I wasn't locked in an island and I was ostracized. Fortunately, I was home birth person. So because if I'd still been a hospital-based practitioner, I would have been between a rock and a hard place. Because I wasn't going to get, you know, it was very obvious to me early on simply because I knew stuff that this thing was dangerous and this thing had never, it was not tested for safety and it was a technology that it failed before. And they're making a, they're making a mountain out of mold hill about this disease. Which of course they made, you know, I don't care what you think. If you think it came from a pangolin, that's fine. But it didn't. It came, it came, it was man-made. Whether it was made in Wuhan or someplace else, it doesn't matter. It was man-made. The people that made it are guilty of crimes against humanity far beyond anything we've ever imagined before. And nothing will happen to them. Because they hold the seeds of power. And when you hold the seeds of power, you manipulate people. And that, by the way, it's another good book that people can read, which has nothing to do with, well, it has to do with COVID. It's called the psychology of totalitarianism by a gang named Matthias Desmond. And he talks about mass formation and what some people call mass formation psychosis. And how do you, how do good people just fall in line suddenly? How did people like, especially Americans, which were, you know, our whole basis is, don't tread on me and, and freedom. And how did we go along with being locked down? You know, and how do we go along with women going into labor by themselves? And their partner is not being allowed in. And you're grandma dying and a nursing home, being able only to see her kids through a glass window. They closed, they closed gyms, but they kept open liquor stores. They, they closed the mom and pop shops, but the big box stores stayed open. You couldn't go to church, but you could go to a George Floyd rally. That was okay. Even, even an open air church, the people got arrested for that. I mean, there was a big one in, I think in Alberta, Canada. In other places too. When, if, if people just open their eyes, but they, they scared, the, the, the, when you're scared, because fear is the greatest motivator. And that's why pregnancy is so easily manipulated. Yeah. Because once they start to tell you, at your very first visit, they start planning these seeds of doubt inside of you. You know, you're over 35, you know, you're a little overweight. You, you know, you got hypothyroidism. That kind of thing, we're going to need to do all this testing. And likely we'll probably want to induce you in it. And they're, and they're throwing all these things at somebody. So now you're pregnant, the entire pregnancy bathing your baby in stress-related hormones as opposed to the love and joyous and laughter-regulated hormones, which is how we're designed. But that, none of that matters. The epigenetics of a, and the, and the way the babies brains are forming inside and what they're exposed to doesn't matter. That's not in the textbook in medical school or, or residency. The, the advantages of breastfeeding and bonding are not discussed to any detail. Now, I grew up in an era where we gave women shots to dry up their breast milk so that they could bottle fee without becoming engorched. That was the standard of care in, in the medical model. And breastfeeding was found upon. Yeah. It was, it was, it was crazy. I mean, yeah. you remember, they look down upon a woman who stayed home with her kids. They, if you breastfed in public, you were shunned. What are we talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And we're still taking this advice from the same people that did all these things. I'm not, you're not. Yeah. People are working out. The problem is that they're hammed in, as you said. What choices do you have? Well, you have to decide for that. You have to decide what is it worth to you? Is it worth your job? Is it worth not buying a better car and saving money for the birth of your child and paying a midwife out of pocket? Right. Going private. Is it better to leave Queensland and go to New South Wales? Whatever. Yeah. We say here crossing state lines. And you know, some people can do it. Some people can't do it. But again, then, then the consequences are partly your own responsibility. And it's sad that women have to do that in the first place, where they can't just just birth as they think their body intended to, you know, I mean, with the support of those around them, it's just so sad that they actually have to do all that in pregnancy, potentially in labor. Like I've had many women that change provider in labor, because they were either being coerced, they didn't feel comfortable, they didn't have respect or autonomy. And it's just crazy that women have to do that. We've got to find. There's nothing that matters more. No. There may be things that matter equally, but there's nothing that matters more than how we give birth, how we bring our children into the world, and how we bring them up. And every parent pretty much every parent, there's never an always or never. But every parent wants the absolute best for their children. They would never want to do harm to their children. And yet they take their doctor, the pediatrician, and they at 18 month visit, and they get six shots of stuff that neither, none of them individually have ever been tested for safety, let alone giving six at one time. Yeah, if you think there's something wrong with obstetricians, you have to start asking yourself, what the hell is wrong with pediatricians? Yeah. You think we got it bad? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why aren't they waking up? And again, I mean, part of it is that that's how they make a living. But nonetheless, there's no dollar amount that can compensate you for doing something that's wrong. And if you believe that vaccines are beneficial to mankind, okay, I understand that. Look at the data. Read. You know, you get one lecture on one day in medical school about how vaccines have saved the world. And that's it. Yeah, that's it. They don't read dissolving illusions. They don't read facts on facts. They don't returtles all the way down. They don't read, um, moth in the iron lung or crooked, demand-made disease explained or this book, this is called the autism vaccine, this is by the same force, McReady, who writes these books. And he writes very interesting stuff. You know, he's not an academician, he's not a scientist, but he tells stories. And he looks at history and the books are really interesting. Yeah. So people should look him up and read a couple of his books and see if it makes sense to you. Well, so we'll link those in the shineites. But if you if you look at, you know, the trouble with vaccines and you google it, you're going to find conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers. You're just going to find labels of people. And they'll tell you why those why those people are wrong. That like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is is off his rocker. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because that's the that's the mechanism by which people deal with cognitive dissonance the most is not directly discuss that way or a debate they vilify the attack. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like when in birth, there's a time and place for medicine. And just like you said, you were going to Vietnam and you chose to get a vaccine. And like, you know, like you there's a time and place that has to be kind of you manage the risk with something that you need because you're going somewhere that would possibly expose you to something. But I don't think that giving a baby so many vaccines when this baby's not exposed to any of this and doesn't need all this and all the comes with it as well. Yeah. Just look at the outcomes. Yeah. And look at the hysteria. You know, we, you know, there's a measles outbreak. And you know, because it's because of the unvaccinated. Well, yeah, but it was six people and five of them were vaccinated. And the measles strain that they got infected with was the vaccinated measles strain, but that doesn't make the news. All it makes the news is that we need to vaccinate more kids because it's an unvaccinated causing a problem. It's a lie. It's worse than propaganda. Propaganda is like is a lie, but this is like worse than that. Yeah. Because somebody is really profiting. Yeah. Yeah. Right. All right. So don't just do to finalize our discussion. Is there any book or movie or TV show something that is inspired anything to do with your life, your work, or anything that you would recommend? God, there's a lot. I still have to go back to business of being born. I think that that changed me a lot. I think it just, you know, I think I knew these things, but I never saw it spelled out like that. Yeah. So I still think that that has great value. And there's a new movie out from, I think from Australia, born at home, which is, which I watched, and we have that we had them on our podcast. I think it will be coming out next week. I think it's about that. Yeah. Yeah. I think it'll be next week's podcast. We'll be the two commercial producers of the film. Yeah. It's a lovely film. There's also a film called Why Not Home. Yes. I think tells the story of five doctors or medical personnel who all chose to give birth at home and why they did it. So those films are good. If you're breached, if you have a breached, then the documentary that my friend Elliott Berlin put together from informed pregnancy called heads up the disappearing out of breached delivery. It's a 33 minute documentary. It's, but it's I think it's very enlightening on breach. And then books I hate to have I hate to recommend books, but you know, the books by the midwifery group that Penny sin can pass the way today. I know. Oh, yeah. Whatever day it was. So that was really sad. But you know, death comes to us all. And what a great contribution she made to our world, Penny. What's that? What a great contribution she made to our world. She'll be remembered for such a long time. Right. And she, you know, if all you do is change a few lives, there's a ripple effect downstream. You know, if if this podcast changes a couple of people to decide I'm going to investigate things, I'm going to question my old B Moore. And if my old B doesn't treat me well, when I ask him questions, I'm going to leave. And I'm going to find another practitioner to help me through my pregnancy because they work for me. I don't work for them. And you know, you need to be treated with dignity. And again, you get what you deserve. If you let them treat you badly and you don't do anything, then they'll just keep going. Yeah. I mean, we used to have market forces used to take care of that stuff. But then when it became a monopoly with a government run system, you, you know, it doesn't really matter, especially if doctors are salary, they don't care how many people they deliver or how many people they piss off. It doesn't really matter. But if you have, you know, if you're a bakery and you make shitty food, people aren't coming back to your bakery. So you have to make good stuff. You have to sell a good product. That's been taken away from medicine. And the interpersonal relationship, the whole idea that they changed the idea of a doctor patient relationship. And in my country, they began using the word provider. And now everybody's a provider. What the hell does that even mean? It's, listen, I have a little thing going about it. I've sort of given up on that one now. I, you know, I prefer to say doctor in midwife or naturopath or whatever. But, you know, I will at least use the word practitioner, even though provider slips out of my mouth sometimes. But the language is really a powerful thing. And when they use words, they start changing it. And we won't probably get into the one that they've changed the most recently because I don't know what your listeners feel about that. So I'll stay out of that. But I think we'll have another episode about that. Yeah, I think people know what we're talking about. Yeah. So I don't want to recommend any book over another book. I'm not the best person to do that. Midwives know that better than I do. I don't know. There's any good, real good doctor books on obstetrics. I would tell people never, ever, ever in your life, read what to expect while you're expecting. It's good for starting campfires. That's what it's good for. That's great. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Don't miss you. Yeah, looking forward to coming. I'm going to be in Sydney, the convergence of rebellious midwives. And then I'm going to do a couple teaching there and that I'll be up in Gold Coast in Brisbane. and I'll finish off in Melbourne. And it's, if people want to find that, they can go to my website that's berthinginsinks.com and just go to the events page. And I hope to see people there. It's a skill that you'll never regret having. Because if you're a birth worker, at some point in your life, or even if you're a taxi driver for that matter, at some point in your life, you may very well have a woman who comes in with a foot or the butt sticking out of the vagina. And the tragedy is going to be that no one knows what to do. And that baby could be, if you knew what to do, that baby could be out in 15 to 30 seconds. And if you don't know what to do, that baby could have a lifetime of suffering or worse. Simply because they didn't know a basic skill that all obstetricians and midwife should know. Yeah. So I hope that people will come or refer somebody or let people know about that. 'Cause that's my mission now in life is, I grew tired of being on call for 40 years. Eight wears on you, you don't get called every night, but you never go to bed. Not sure you're gonna be called or not. And so now my mission is to do consults. I spread the word. I'm working on that paper on twins with Rixa and then going around and teaching these skills. And enjoying Southern back to the full circle, enjoying the beauty of Southern Utah. I'm looking at buying a four-wheel drive truck this week so that I can go off-road because there are so many great places. Like in Australia too. Oh, how good, yeah. They have dirt roads or they have sandy roads or they with a rain, they have immense amounts of mud. And I wanna go explore. And I can't get there in my little Volkswagen, so. I love it. Oh, awesome. So thank you for having me, Moran. Thank you, thank you. Thanks, thanks. I'm honored. I look forward to seeing you guys. Yes, definitely. Yeah, we'll see you September. Yeah. OK. Thank you. Bye. Bye. [MUSIC PLAYING]