Episode 2 | Part 2 | Assessment

[MUSIC] Welcome back everybody to Teacher Takeaway Podcast. My name is Aaron Johnston and I'm one of your hosts. I'm here with my amazing team of Alice Viggers. >> Hey everyone. >> James Gray. >> Hello, how are we all? >> And Beck West. >> Hello, welcome back. And you have made it to part two of episode two, where we are looking at assessment. We're talking all things assessment. And our key inquiry question for this episode around this assessment is how do we make assessment data meaningful and valuable to our practice. So that is a big question. But before we delve into that, let's just, I guess, recap three really quick fire questions for everybody. So first question, what class level changes could be made that positively affect the way we assess, and how assessment is carried out. So class level changes. Over to you guys. >> Smaller class sizes. >> I said it. >> [LAUGH] >> Make it regular and ongoing, not just in one week. Be consistent and regular, and don't, you know, stay true to what you believe in. >> Very good. And I would say get rid of a one size fits all approach. Here we go, a question to what assessment or assessment procedure would you like to see modified? >> The HSC, I would like to see that. So that people aren't scaled. I want kids to know their own score and have their own score and know exactly what it means. >> I think we're all testament to that. >> Yeah, and yes. >> I agree with you back. My mind is very much with the HSC. I know the question might be, so what's the answer then? Well, we don't have the answer here. We're just saying what we'd like to say modified. And I agree with the continued work that they're doing with in that area of alternative pathways and not scaling and judging people by number. I think the overreliance on the pre-generated or the ones you just pick up and buy, the pre-ready made that aren't differentiated or contextually relevant to the students that we have. >> Yeah, I'm going to say a big ditto on all of those, because that's exactly what I was thinking. Here we go, last question. What current assessment would you completely abolish? >> Beep test. >> Controversial. >> The beep test. >> Not a fan of that one. >> Get it gone. I can't model it, okay? >> Well, it is a controversial topic, but what are the assessment that I'd completely abolish? Is assessment that is done within classrooms and schools that is done with no purpose, that the assessment is done and nothing is done with the results? So, getting rid of meaning less assessment when nothing is done with the information gained. >> Assessment just for assessment sake. >> Yes, that is what I'd abolish. >> Yeah, agreed. >> Double agreed. And James, what a perfect segue, absolutely perfect segue. So, the question is coming down to how do we make data meaningful, assessment data? How do we make it meaningful and purposeful in our teaching? So, let's, I guess, explore this question and come back to data. How do we analyze it? Let's start off by talking about, I guess, assessment of learning. So, that's summative. Summative data. How do we analyze that, Alice? >> I always have had it referred to me and to me, as, you know, your formative assessment is when the cook tastes the soup. You know, yep, yep, I think it tastes good. Your sum of assessment is you're handing it to your customers. That's when they taste the soup and the feedback that you get from them about. The products that you've given them, that's the, you know, the data that you're gathering from that about how good your soup tastes. So, when we're looking at analyzing summative assessment, that assessment of learning, I think you said it in episode one, Aaron, it's really about kind of our measure of our teaching impact, that pedagogical impact, that we're having on student learning and their ability to demonstrate what they know with that particular evidence of learning sets. So, looking at, you know, the information that that set is giving us around you know, for me, it all comes back to who benefited, who benefited from that learning. What was my impact on that student learning and who hasn't benefited and why? >> Yeah, and I guess making a meaningful data is then going, what am I going to do about it? What am I going to change? What am I going to modify? What am I going to keep? What, like we said, it's not, I guess, always looking for what did not do. But let's actually look for the goal. Let's look for the things that did well. I don't think we do that as teachers enough. We automatically always go to, oh, I didn't do this well enough. But what were the strengths? Let's keep those. And like you were saying, Alice, let's then look at, okay, this didn't work. But let's come up with a plan. Let's do something about it and going back to what Beck said in part one. That comes down to time and giving our teachers time to do that. Because we're all time poor and that's one of the things that I think tends to fall away. Is that evaluation and then planning forward? >> I agree completely with what you guys were saying. And I guess the key important parts that my thoughts are, we've had we analyzed data is that we have, I guess, data protocols or data norms when, okay, that's such a regular focus that we do that we come together when we analyze data or I find having data protocols or data norms that we all understand when we come together, these are going to be the processes that we'd look at. And a great text that I'm sure we're all familiar with or I can recommend and I apologize if I mispronounce the author's name. But a clarity by Lynn Shirat is a great text that talks a lot about assessment and the purpose of assessment and not just about analyzing. But I think a key part of analyzing the data like you were saying, Alice, is that we're putting a face to just the numbers. That the student is more than the numbers. That we're putting a face, creating that connection, reflecting upon our own teaching, but finding a bit out about that student about what they need next within their teaching and learning. We know this is where the student is at for using a triangulation of data to make our assumption. But where is it next for this student? Yeah, they have students actually, they really have to sit at the core of assessment, regardless of whether it's assessment for learning as learning or learning. Whichever form of assessment we are using, assessments students have to sit at the core of that and as you said, James, that triangulation of this is one evidence set for that student about where they're at. That's wrong. And that's important to the what you said, Aaron, about, you know, what do we keep? What do we do away with? It's not a case of you do away with it forever. You just do away with it for that kid at that point in time because that's not what's working, because every kid is different. Keeping kids at that core, like you said, Alice, is the focus. And if we're not taking that student-centered or holistic approach towards those kids, we're doing them a disservice. So we do need to take into account, we did mention in episode one, we can't let the barriers be our pitfalls around those things. We know, you know, trauma, welfare, all those things are tendons. We don't want that to be the excuse, but we do know that those things can impact those kids. So if we know that there's a kid not demonstrating that learning in some area, but our teacher got our teacher hunch says, I know they're learning it. I know they're soaking it up. Why are they not demonstrating it when it comes to this summative assessment or formative assessment? We need to explore those other possibilities that, hey, somebody of assessment might be really triggering this kid that's got trauma and, you know, take into account those trauma and form practices that we need with those kids. And the triangulation that James was talking about is what are forwards us, that opportunity to really look at everything that's going on, because quite often you'll see that pattern in the formative assessment in the classroom, where it's safe and secure, and we have that teacher and we have that dialogue, and we know what's going on, they do great. Sit them down for napkin, for example, and they completely bomb. That does not mean that the kid was flying through the classroom, and it was all fake or they're copying or something. There's something different there in that time. It's a level of risk. It is, yeah, it's a very different situation, and those outside factors that impact how those kids attend to that type of assessment. We know it's very different to when we give them a summative assessment and don't even call in an assessment, we don't call it a test. We just say, hey, we're doing this activity today. They perform differently. So those teacher conversations, those teacher conversations mean so much. what we do to that data. Yeah and I think it's important to like James you were talking about I guess I guess a process and having something set in place to support our teachers to analyse that data and making that time and having those collaborative sessions where we are unpacking student data and as a group taking on I guess different perspectives noticing that different things that other people get from the data that we don't and it's an opportunity to build everybody's I guess understanding and practice in data because data isn't everybody's thing people can look at data and and they just it's not the way their brain works for me I'll be honest I'm a data nerd I love it absolutely love it but for some people it's just not their thing but as we come together and we have that collective discussion we're actually in turn building out everybody's corporate collective understanding in how to analyse data and take that ownership over it and then use it meaningfully absolutely and so having those clear procedures and processes one of those key things I see in those conversations is those I think we spoke about this before an episode one or one two or whatever it was those aha moments we see in teachers like we get them in kids we get them in teachers as well and when you sit there together and you're looking at everybody's work samples everybody's scoring everybody's annotations and you can see those patterns or you hear teachers go oh I think I'm marking my kids a little bit hard or another teacher will look at someone else's work sample and go oh this kid's got really great persuasive devices here and that teacher didn't notice it because we missed things as we do we're teachers with humans but that comparative conversation so powerful for for teachers to see the consistencies and the inconsistencies without being worried that it's a poor reflection on themselves again going back to that concept that assessment really does come down to self-reflection of teachers that time that you have together to do that allocating that time and the conversation it's it's so cool to see teachers finding those patterns within themselves and then yeah having that teacher that goes yeah see the benefit in this that's so cool yeah and I think just just finishing up on that point back like you said connecting back to that vulnerability and when we analyse that data if students within our class performed lower compared to another teacher on the stage that's okay I shouldn't be ashamed if my students hadn't achieved as well as others because that's that self-reflection point of all this is an area that I could improve in I'm like reach out to my AP or my instructional leader or someone else because I didn't realise that this was an area of development for me so it's a game that if students aren't performing within your class you know there is a range of factors but it's okay to make yourself vulnerable and self-reflect upon how you are teaching because that's what great teachers do they self-reflect upon what they're doing and analysing data is one part of that process and the chance for team teaching there too yeah yeah that's what I was going to say and that opportunity to go how you're doing this really well can I hop in and and team teach like you're saying Beckin and have an opportunity to see how that works yeah absolutely yeah very good any other thoughts not thinking it was a nice segue into the next yeah yeah so the next I guess conversation is around so we've got the data we're analysing it what do we do with it we've had these conversations we've analysed it what do we do with data so let's let's go back to that class level as a classroom teacher you know you look at your data but what do you do with it at that class level so in our context we have what we call a tiered intervention chart it's a colorful chart so all the people that are listening and can't see try and picture in your mind a graph a table I should say that has the the kids names in one column and then we've got an identified area in the middle so at the top is the blue kids the next level down are the green kids the next level down are the yellow kids and the next level down are the red kids so let's say the focus is writing you've got your kids in the blue these are the kids that are kind of above not necessarily gifted but maybe hypertension performing above the other kids because we don't want to forget those kids they have identified needs as well your green kids are kind of the school white approach this is essentially the kids that you're writing your program for the kids that will learn regardless of how we teach them that's your green kids they're on track for lack of a better word your yellow kids are your targeted kids that are kind of sitting just below expectation and then your red kids are the kids that need high levels of intervention they're the intensive intervention so at our school what our teachers do is they do their formative their summative assessments their observations and then using that information they decide which kids fit blue green red yellow and then they identify the strategies that they're going to use for those kids those the strategies that inform your programming so we have that as a conversation during our talk time it can be part of the conversation in our team meetings and that data changes every five weeks as it as we're refreshing now that doesn't mean there's going to be huge changes you're not suddenly going to see five kids jumping up into the blue because they're all suddenly high potential and they all get it you might see one kid slowly shift you might see a couple of those yellow kids slowly shift into the green you know that's the idea if those kids in the red are receiving a really intensive intervention for like those programs like Maclit or something they might move into the yellow and become part of that classroom differentiation it's a great visual to be able to see where those kids are at and that's a document that supports people like our school counselor our assistant principals any of our covert intervention teachers can literally look at that snapshot and go right those five kids right there those are some of the priority kids in phonological awareness or something like that it sounds really cumbersome but this is something that I try and support the teachers in doing so that we can compile that document and then there's just that snapshot here are the current needs in the class here are the strategies that I'm using for them and I'm finding the more and more we do it the higher quality I see in the strategies that are being used and then you can see it apply to programming because that's a differentiation essentially you just programmed your differentiation right there and that can translate to programming so do you guys use anything along those lines no but I think I will now we've we've dabbled a little bit in that same system nowhere near I think to the extent that you have back but we have the same kind of color coding system that we apply to particularly in the area of reading and the processes involved in reading we definitely use that same color coding system and it's a nice visual way to kind of track students over time look at the ones that are moving and the interventions and the strategies that you're using to support those kids against to a different different level of what we do with the class starter and how you were sharing the systems across your school then how will stakeholders you know there's a consistent system across the school of how you're identifying different students and how they're performing a system that we use is I guess our whole school data spreadsheet to to an extent where on our dash school dashboard central which is a school based system we have our quick link which takes us to our whole school data spreadsheet from kindergarten to you six each student's name is split into classes so for example you'd have K Johnson down the bottom K West and one two gray three four figures etc all down the bottom then it's got the name of the assessments at the top then it's got the student scores down there so also on their student profile it has if they're artsy if they're real if they're seeing the counsellor any other notes there so for example our learning and support team use it our we old team use it our Aboriginal education team use it so it's a system where the classroom teacher goes to enter their data but it can be accessed by you know all stakeholders within the school again it's giving a little bit more information with just a background but also as we go and talk a little bit further stages then use that data when they meet because they've access to their whole stage data us as a senior executive come together and look at it to analyse so I guess that's another system of making the information accessible to all people within the school so do your teachers just go straight on to central and put data in there themselves correct correct so they'd log on to central under the quick links area they'll click on whole school data spreadsheet where again it differentiates for each stage the data that they're collecting because there's some stage based assessments that they do but we all consistently collect their reading levels there different phonics different maths assessments it's all there it's easy to to be able to manipulate but it's that all that's all summative I'm assuming then that's quantitative data yeah yeah but with the early stage one stage one we've got different codes for different types of formative assessments if they've demonstrated or observed it kind of similar to plan two where it's observed not observed kind of information there so we use a code in there where we can still synthesise and go through and sort if the amount of NOS and different things like that I'm keen to see that because at the moment I compile the whole school data into a google doc and it's it's it's very similar where it's literally just the numbers and tracking and and 10 levels and things like that so the that I can report back to my principal and my director and my, you know, area leaders and everything about where we are statistically as a whole school. I didn't realize you could put a lot of that stuff into Central, so I'll be definitely. - It's not into Central, like it's through an Excel spreadsheet. It's just a hyperlink to it. So it's just through an Excel spreadsheet, but the access to the documents is just on the quick link section. - So it's not in my grade book or any of the, the, I don't know what your home module is. - Similar to what you're saying, James, but we use the mark book feature in Central for tracking our data and inputting it there. - So can you decide what goes in there? Like does it specifically say, I don't know, PM reading levels or. - Yes, so you design in that section in Central, it's completely customizable. So you decide what assessment tasks you want to do, what you're, whether you're doing a score or a rating scale that you customize yourself, and it's personalized to suit different stages. So that's how we use ours. And then you can then download it as a spreadsheet, if you want to, to filter it and things like that. It's a little bit fiddly, but I think I've got it down pat now. And then we try and use it to then, obviously, then feed into our reports automatically for assisting with grading and things like that. - Oh, that would be good to use. And it does it roll over each year, like when the kid's going to their new classes or that data rolls through. - Yes, yep, so it goes, it's archived, but it's still accessible. - Nice, I like that. I'll be investigating that. - So yeah, similar to what you guys were saying, I was thinking as a class teacher, you know, it's for me using that data and then we use, particularly as a class teacher, in my context, I then use that to come up with, I guess, teaching sprints. So similar to what you're saying, Beckett, I don't have a colored code system, but then I set particular targets, obviously, for those kids that are beyond at needing that extra support and then targeting those things over a teaching sprints cycle, whether it might be five weeks, it might be two or three weeks, depending on what it is, and then really evaluating at the end. And through that, obviously, we're ongoing assessment that's driving the teaching in that teaching sprint and then really evaluating at the end. So yeah, that's how we do it. - We're using that with writing at the moment. So we've got essentially a data wall. I don't wanna call it a data wall 'cause it's not really a data wall, the same way you'd see in clarity, but it's an attempt to put a face to things. It's more of a work sample wall where we do have the statistical data for the classes with the numbers, the physical numbers, the scoring from their rubrics and everything, but we've got the samples there with the learning progressions and then like post-it notes on there about what we can see being demonstrated and where we're going to go to next. So there's little post-it notes about where we're going to go to next. That informs the programming. But the best part about it was to see the patterns across the school. So my school's slightly smaller. We've only got 12 classes, K to six, and we have a preschool as well. But being able to see the patterns once it was all up there. If I was just looking at class data, if I was the one teacher looking at my class starter, you'd see that finite amount of information that would inform you. But then you see the teacher next door and then the grade below me and the grade above me. And you can see that pattern and some of the patterns that came out for us was just that some of our writing could be enhanced if we focused on the creating texts portion of the learning progressions as a key focus area. So like you said, Aaron, about how that gives us that better language and that more detailed approach to how we can refine what we're doing. That's how we're using that data. We use that data to kind of scale the kids and score them and then look at the learning progressions and then use that to identify those patterns that will help us not just in our classroom, but across the whole school as well. Because when we look at, for example, grade one and go, well, the kids were missing these things, did we actually do that really well in Kindi? And that's no reflection on the kindergarten teachers. What's so ever? We do this as teachers. We're just focusing on one thing, something else has to go. We've only got a certain amount of time in the day. And when we notice those patterns, it helps us refine those practices all around. So that, like you said, Alice, as well, yeah, we might not be pushing a kids towards that older stage if we're getting deep knowledge. They've still got to go to that stage, though, in a year or two to be able to develop that content. So it just helps inform those scope and sequences moving forward too. - Yeah, we've also touched on a little bit. So moving on from that class system is how do we use data, I guess, stage wide whole school, grade level, and my context spec is similar to yours. We've, over the last few years, we've looked at Naplan and a few other data sources, check in and things like that and identified some key targets, particularly in the area of writing. And what we've said is all of our writing programs, we want to target these, we've got five key areas that we're working on in semester one, then in semester two, some of them may remain and we'll mix them up a little bit. And we're trying to see that differentiation. It's in our root groups. They're all around those five targets and then we use those to set up our differentiated groups. So perhaps teachers might choose to really heavily focus for a teaching sprint on vocab and they've got all their groups leveled based on vocab or situation like where in my classroom, they're not grouped all on the one thing but we're coming back to those targets and we've got kids that are, like you were saying, back at that high level of support in say sense and structure, but then I've got a group of kids that are working at that extension or working beyond in the area of vocabulary for an example because looking at that rubric and those targets that we're measuring from, what's their most important thing or what's the thing that I can focus on heavily and see growth through improvement. - Do you guys all work on five weekly data cycles? - Most do at our school. - We try and pace it out. It might be five weekly cycle but opposed to your standard week, five and 10, we might mix parts up to be like week two and send just to keep it mapped out for different areas. So again, we don't hit like we said in episode one, everything's in the one week. We try and space different parts out between literacy and numeracy. So it's not all together. But I guess the key point of my recommendations and thoughts of what I found beneficial of what we do with stage and whole school data is, first of all, we organise, we meet, we analyse the data, we go through it, then after we've gone through it, do we need to make any amendments from what the data is informed us? Obviously, we don't just jump to make changes straight away but if we're using again, like I've hopped on about a triangulation of data, if the data is telling us something, do we need to update our scope and sequence to give another week to number an hour, after we're up because our students do not have an understanding and we can't move on to the next part. So after we've analysed the data, what changes do we need to make to our scope and sequence to our teaching and learning programmes? Hey, there might not be any. But I think it's after we've analysed it at that stage and whole school level, it's about reflecting what changes needs to be made within the scope and sequence, the teaching and learning programme, the assessment schedule, but also then as a team, you might identify if we're keeping with the trend of writing, was it within that writing it simple that we analysed that bow cap across the stage was an area for development? Okay, what can we do to address it? Is it within our teaching again? Is it how we were teaching that area? Do we need to go create complete professional learning as a team on this? So again, when we're looking at that data from a stage and whole school, it's about reflecting as an entire, as a team, what systems or what do we need to do moving forward in my book? It's good too that your schedule goes like that we do a similar one too, but like you take into account things, like you'll have a random week of things like, I don't know, athletics, kind of all, nadolque, whatever that will impact you, just how much of that content you can deliver to the kids. - Naplan. - Yeah, that's it. So we enter that week this week. That's it. And then last week we had check-in assessment, then we've got Naplan and. Tell them from me, you even know that's a different part, but. - Yeah, and all of these things are valuable in their own way. - That's right. - Yeah, creates an impact to the timetable. So like you said, just having that flexibility to have that conversation and go, let's change up what we're doing to suit what's going on. And not obviously we have those things in place just to be time management, I don't know, purposeful. - Yeah, I got it. - I got it. - Time management. (laughs) But have the flexibility to do that. So that's good that you've got that as a process. I like it. - Yeah, I think it's important for us all to understand as well within our assessments and everything that we do, all our documents that we use within schools from our teaching and learning programs, everything. They're fluid documents, we're updating and we're changing them based upon the difficulties that we're faced with. COVID was a key example of that last year. We're constantly changing in their fluid documents based upon the involvement we're in. - Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say James, great coming off yours about having that stage time looking at that. We do a similar thing at my school, but one thing I know many of our staff have found really effective is them. We then feed back that stage reflection and focus and data analysis across the whole school. So every stage becomes aware of, oh, this is what they're doing in kindergarten. This is what they're doing in a early stage, in stage one. And this is what they're doing in stage two to build that understanding. across our whole school that's sometimes in stages, the needs are different, sometimes there are those consistent things we need to do as a whole school, but I think it also builds that accountability of we are all in this together and we are all doing what we need to do for our students. It's that collective ownership, they're our students, not just my stage. And efficacy too, we need that collective efficacy, that reminder that yeah kids have got lots of barriers but that doesn't mean we can't make a difference. And I think that's creating a really positive culture too, Aaron, by doing that, obviously back in, I was saying that culture of collaboration and collective efficacy, but what a great culture working where we're talking about that on a regular basis, that I'm not just a stage two teacher, I know what's happening in an early stage one, what a great collective culture that you're creating through that process. Great thoughts there everybody. So talking about looking at the data, the question this one is about how do we make it meaningful, so how do we reflect our data in our programming? So for my part in this, ours is, it's a little bit separate and I think that comes from the big focus on the data collection at this point and starting to transition into making it an effective and embedded practice in our programming, not that it's done poorly, it's done very well, our teachers get it in, the consistent teacher judgment is aligning really well and when you have a staff turnover as well, you know, people go and leave, maternity leave, people change schools, those sorts of things, it's almost like starting again. So to see those practices, you know, tweak and modify through time, it can impact how that's reflected in programming because people have different programming styles. So I think it's great conversation, there's less documentation and that comes down again to being time poor. Teachers have a great, great ability to be able to sit there and share their hunch and even provide some examples of it, you know, I saw Johnny do this in the class, he's one writing sample that kind of shows it but when it comes to actually putting it into programming and reflecting it with our outcomes and even identifying is it assessment as of for, you know, learning, it's documentation part that I think we fall down on, I don't know if you guys experience the same thing and that's not just a reflection of my school, I mean across the board when I go to conferences and I talk to other APs and I talk to other teachers there as well, that seems to be a consistent thing that I've seen. Oh great, like obviously at your bottom of your unit evaluation, you can reflect upon, you know, the data that you've had or whether from your stage meeting and you're talking about, you know, the conversation that you found from the data but then how you're showing that in your next unit of work or in your next part of your teaching and learning program, is there a part that you've indicated within the top there of, you know, I'm reflecting as I'm talking, I think that is an area where you just said it, it's at the bottom of the program, we put it last and then it's never used again unless you're talking that same unit again. One of the things that I do as a classroom teacher is actually, I very rarely use the summative evaluation, all of the evaluations that I do on the programs that I use are all formative. So I have a column on the side of my program and any of the observations that I make about students or the data that's being gathered, I'll record that in the side, make notes of that, put my feed forward as an ongoing workable document that I can then refer back to and it kind of just feeds down the side of the program as I'm working through that learning, that sequence of learning and then at the end when I then go back and reflect, I look at all of those formative evaluations and all of those, you know, really rich observations that we make over time that we go, oh yeah, it's in my head, I'm going to remember that, we don't. So having just, and they're not lengthy, you know, notes that I write they often just, you know, kids initials about, you know, these students really struggled, they never required extra support or a different additional scaffolds or, you know, these students are showing that they have, you know, quite a depth of understanding, I wonder if I can, I can push them towards, you know, developing that broader transfer application of learning, adding that into that evaluation and putting all of that down the side as a working document. So can I just clarify, you're talking about I'm picturing you've got like year, year, year program and on the side is a column with what you're observing with those students and then down the bottom when you're talking about your overall summary, is that more of a reflection of your teaching practices? So it's like the students go down the side and then that bottom part is on that to you. Yeah, I like that. Okay. Yeah, we've we've been trailing a similar thing Alice this year, particularly in the area of writing and maths, where we've got those weekly reflections, whether it's a column on the side or it's still sort of in the same spot where we're writing all our programs to encourage that ongoing regular reflection, notes on students and then thinking about that. Okay, next week's program, what I'm going to shift, what am I going to change, how am I going to use those notes, trying to make it part of the weekly programming that we already do? Yeah, it's, it's building, finding value in it or valuing that process and building it into the way that you operate as a classroom teacher. So oftentimes I'll have just a sticky note that as I'm going and observing or recording if it's if it's formative assessment data that I've got it there. I put, you know, maths and jot down my notes and I just put it to the side so that when I have time, whether it's between breaks or at the end of the day or I'm taking the time to reflect on how that particular learning session went or experience went for the students that I've got that reflection there after having, you know, if I don't get to it till the end of the day, then I've got all of the lessons that I've taught, you know, some observations and and feed forwards and perhaps hunches or wondering that I have about where the students are and where I feel that they need to go next in terms of the learning. And oftentimes, you know, if you look at, you know, if I was to give you access to to one of my programs as it was a working document, you'll find that the learning experiences as they go, I often put the changes that we make or, you know, the additional differentiation that I do in red or in a different color so that you can see how that that formative data that summative data has been reflected on the changes that I've made to the teaching and learning cycle. Like James said, flexible and fluid documents. Absolutely changing. Yeah. And I think one of the things I know for me personally and for my team is, is letting people experiment and change up the way they do it. So we don't necessarily have a, with documenting our explicit groupings and things like that. We don't have a separate formula that people have to use. It just has to be in there somewhere and people come up with systems and I know when I look at my team's program, often see something that they've done and go, that's a great way of doing it. I'm going to try that or I say to them, hey, can you share that with this other person because they're struggling a little bit with, so I think it's also giving people the flexibility and empowering them to go, do what comes naturally to you, do what's going to work for you, as long as we can see that evidence that you're using your data to drive your teaching. Because like we said with assessment, we want to get out of that one-size-fits-all. I think it's the same with how we, how we program and how we I guess record what we're doing for our students. We don't have to have a one-size-fits-all approach. No, not at all. Okay, well, we are nearly at the end of this part of our episode, basing our conversation around assessment, making sure our data is meaningful. We've talked about, what do we do? What are the processes? How do we embed it into our programming? Now, moving forward from this, how will we know or how do we know if it's been effective? How do we know if the data that we've used, we've analyzed, we've modified our teaching, then how do we know if it's been effective? How do we know if it was impactful and worthwhile? You didn't grow. Yeah, how it's got a side. That's it. That is how it's been shown in programming. I should say, student and teacher growth, not just student growth. They need teacher growth as well if we're reflecting. Yeah, very good. And it's not about achieving the best results out of all of the lands, in all of the schools everywhere. That's that student shown improvement from where they work, to where they are now, based upon the changes you made from analyzing that data. That student has made changes. You know what you've done has worked. Yeah. Yeah. Very good job. Yeah. Mike drop on that one. Yeah. Like we said, like you said, James, it's about measuring that student against themselves and having that clear progress. This student has gone from here to here. This is my evidence. That's how I know it made a difference. Excellent. Well, we are really about to tile this up. We're going to talk takeaways. So first of all, some things we want you to take away. Let's have a quick sharing session. What are some of your favorite assessments? The phonological awareness assessment. I love it. - Love it, it's such a good thing. And if you're not in the department, you can still access the actual assessment. It's, I'm pretty sure that's a public-forward-facing document, but we've actually got access to the software system as well where you can track it. And the best part is, it takes you through such finite parts of phonological awareness. And then it generates a report for you saying, what's the next area of focus? And then it shares resources with you. And how to teach it and things you can send home for parents that are keeping on doing that stuff at home. It's so great, but even better, it's not designed to pull every single kid out of the class and test them on it. You are only meant to use it on those kids that aren't shifting. So if you see those kids not shifting and you're really not sure why your teacher gut isn't doing it for you, pull out the phonological awareness assessment and it will really help you. I love it. What about you guys? (laughing) - I would say another resource switch, I really, is it go to for me when it comes to planning assessments is for maths, the department's documents for stage two and stage three on assessments. They've got some great examples of questions at different levels as well. If that's a go to for me in looking at planning assessments and going, okay, what are some examples of questions that we can use that will measure where students have but challenge their thinking as well. There's some really great ones in there around problem solving and thinking in different ways. - Is that the diagnostic assessment? - Yes, yeah. - There's stage one ones now as well, but not as a book, it's just online. - Yes, and the other thing I love about that is there's some great tasks and then sitting back and watching and observing how they respond to that task, which I am unbeatable of that. I highly recommend recording when you do that. Record a video of the class doing it because sometimes you will miss those observations and then just watch the recording back. It feels weird, but you can see some good stuff. - Yeah, so that'd be a favorite of mine. - I'm just thinking like I'm sure if I've got a favorite favorite assessment that I think of, I just think my favorite assessment is the assessment that's done with the teacher and the students that we discussed in episode one part one, where it's been coders on, co-constructive, the students are excited about what they're doing and they don't even realize that it's an assessment. So I guess that's my favorite type of assessment where the teacher and the students, the amount of planning and understanding of the students that has gone into it, that the assessment is just that fun, that engaging, they don't even know it's taking place. So I guess I'm more talking about the experience supposed to a type of assessment, but that's more favorite experience in rephrasing your question. - House. - Mine was more an experienced based one as well, but I was going to go with learning conferences, having those rich and engaging discussions with students about the learning and how they feel there, going where they're at, what they feel they need further support with or want to be pushed further with, sitting down and actually having those conversations with the students is really eye opening about what it is that they know where they feel they need to improve. And it's a great tool to use as you build that teaching and learning cycle, to build in that student agency and voice. - Yeah. - So I think to sometimes to hear kids getting really meta about their learning, we say they're kids, but like they're so capable. - And very honest, very honest. Yeah, okay, let's wrap this up. It's been two parts, very deep conversation. We could talk for days, episodes and episodes on assessment. There is so much to say, but when it comes to assessment, let's wrap up this. It's the final part in our chat about assessment. What are your key assessment takeaways? My key takeaways are, first of all, going back to episode one, part one. Why are you doing the assessment? I want you to ask yourself, when you go back into your classroom tomorrow or anything and you're looking at your assessment schedule, do you understand the why to every assessment that you're completing? If you do understand the why, moving on then, the assessment that you're completing, is it providing students the opportunity to show a different range of their understanding throughout that assessment. So when we understand the why, we've created different types of assessment to understand students' understanding. We then come to analyse the data. Are we using a triangulation of data when we are making our, I guess our thoughts or our next steps of the process? My key takeaways and my challenge to you is always, never base your decisions of one data set. Make sure that you're using a triangulation, which is just three data sources of when you're making your decision. Then also, remember that it's data and that data can be manipulated to tell a narrative that remember there's a face behind that data. So after we know the why, we've created a quality assessment. We've assessed the data. What are we doing next with that information we have? Going away, reflecting upon it, making those changes, implementing those changes and then celebrating student success. So I guess they're more kind of key takeaways, something about part one and part two. - For me, I think considering my role is as an instructional leader, I'm taking that two-stream part there where we're talking about how it's not just a reflection on the student successes, but also that teacher-reflection element that goes into it and making sure teachers don't feel any kind of shame that comes with their two, their students may be not achieving successfully where they're getting to and it's just a learning point. But being able to make sure that those practices are embedded, those assessment practices are embedded and that teacher-reflection also is embedded in part of that practice as well because it may not necessarily be a reflection of student capability and could be everything to do with how we're delivering things in the classroom. - Yeah, Alice. - I did have something at the top of my head and I just lost it. (all laughing) - I was deep in thought while you were talking about it. - Well, if you want to think on that, I guess my key takeaway is like we differentiate our practice. We need to make sure our assessments kind of what you were saying, James, are differentiated that they suit all types of students, that every student has the best opportunity to demonstrate what they are able to do. And if when you're looking at your assessment, you think, no, I don't think that's possible then perhaps we need to rethink what that assessment looks like because we don't want to create a bias or a disadvantage or an unfair advantage to a certain student or a certain type of student in an assessment task because it's more suited to them. Or perhaps if we do have an assessment task that is more suited to something like James was saying that triangulation of that then we have to come up with another, I guess, form of assessment that's assessing a similar thing so we can average it out and go, well, that kid just doesn't know it. We go, well, they might have not done well in this form of assessment, but when we read it and we looked at it in this format, they did quite well. They excelled because it's so easy to judge a kid based on a scoring goal or they don't know that concept. But perhaps it's just the format and it comes down to different shading our assessments as well just like we do our teaching and learning. - One of those best examples to is when you give the kids the choice of like, for example, what to write about. So if the piece of writing is on how to give instructions and we tell them, oh, it's all how to make instructions on making fairy bread, not everyone likes fairy bread or eats fairy bread. Get, tell me instructions on how to pick up a Xbox controller and turn on the Xbox. Some kids will go for gold because the focus isn't knowing if they know how to make fairy bread or not. It's about writing instructions, giving them that choice and that comes back to that student ownership too. - And I triggered what I was going to say. (laughs) I don't remember. I was, my key takeaway is that the three forms of assessment and assessment as of and for learning are all really valuable in that teaching and learning cycle and they all have a place and are all equally important as each other and it's as teachers, as practitioners, it's important that we are giving value to all those three forms and building that into to our daily practice and what we're doing. And I'm giving, getting the signal from Aaron to stop talking. (laughs) - No, not at all, that was great. That was great. - We knew this was going to be a big topic. - We apologize. There are four people who love a good chat hosting this podcast. But hopefully the conversation has been, I guess, eye-opening, enriching even in a way. You're sitting there nodding along or maybe verbally going, yes, yes, I agree. That's what we want. So, you know, we'd love to hear thoughts if you have anything you'd like to share from part two, your feedback, send us a message, give us some feedback on our social media but we are looking forward to another episode coming your way soon. And that has been our conversation, that has been part two of our chat on assessment and we are looking forward to a new episode and new theme, a new set of enquiry questions coming to you very soon for episode 3 have a great week and we will hopefully have you join us again soon for another episode of Teacher Takeaway. Thanks everybody!