Episode 2 | Part 1 | Assessment

[music] Well, welcome back everybody to Teacher Takeaway Podcast. My name is Aaron Johnston, and I am one of your hosts this week. I'm here with the very amazing team of Beck West. Hello. Alice Figures. Hi there. And James Gray. Hello. Thank you for joining us again for another episode. In our last episode we got to share a little bit about who we are in our journeys, and we just wanted to pause for a moment and give some shout outs to a few people who have listened in. So who's your shout out for this week team? I've got a shout out for one of my amazing colleagues for some positive feedback that she gave to me about our first episode, and the fact that I say, "I'm way too much," so my goal this week is not to say that word as often. I am with you. I'll send you on that, and I think I've already said it twice. Not that we're keeping score or anything. Exactly. I'm following on from that Alice. I was amazed with him and our colleagues, but also friends outside of teaching that listened into the podcast, and we're really got behind us and just stated that they're not from education backgrounds, but they really love what we're doing, and keen to see where we go. So thank you to those colleagues and friends. I had a lovely colleague give me some feedback on the first episode, and how it was great to hear from all of us, and keen to hear about topics that we've got coming for the future, and thankfully I didn't have the um feedback this time that I often get when I talk as well, but the feedback was that I speak a lot slower in the podcast, which is probably a good thing so that we can understand what I'm saying. I know that Beck I'm guilty of often talking too fast, so hopefully we don't have that. My shout out goes to two amazing fellow podcasters actually. So educating Laura and couple with Heather who both listened in and had great feedback about how much they enjoyed getting to know us, and they are looking forward to upcoming episodes. So let's get into this next episode. So in our last episode getting to know us, we talked about the podcast moving forward. We'll look at a key inquiry question. So for this episode, it's episode two part one. We're talking about assessment and our first inquiry question for part one that we're going to be looking at is why is assessment an important part of the teaching and learning cycle. Now that is a huge question with so many different angles. So we're going to try our best to stick to around 30 minutes as we delve into this, but let's go back to the basics and let's start off looking at this key inquiry question with really why do we assess what's the purpose? I can jump in on this one and just go back to that the quality of learning and what we're doing and that essentially we're trying to be transparent with our learning and if we don't assess we really don't get that evidence that the learning is happening. So when we're looking at what's the purpose, I know it's really hard to be overshadowed with. We have to do it because it's a mandatory requirement. That's hard to move away from especially when you're in an executive position and it is a mandatory requirement. It is part of the things that we need to do. It is written into policy. It is written into nationwide policy as an expectation and sometimes we lose sight of what the bigger picture is when that's all that we focus on either as executive or as teachers when we're going through what's the purpose of assessment when the real purpose is to allow students to demonstrate their learning and to make sure that we can articulate those really key points and teach a point of need. That's where the real stuff happens. That's where we really get into anything. If we're just teaching for teaching sake and the curriculum's there and we're following it and we've got so scope and sequences to follow, there's really no point there that is student-centric. An assessment is student-centric to me no matter how you look at it. That's exactly right. Yeah, I'd great back it. I guess why do we assess? Why do we teach? We teach to ensure students learn. The question we come back to is we've taught what we're required to taught. How do we know students know what we've taught? We've got to assess them and I'm sure we'll talk in in detail today or for as and of assessment, but when we know what students know, we know what to do next. So it's going to be interesting here in your ideas of different types of assessments and your thoughts on them today. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's important to remember, yes, Beck, that assessment is about knowing exactly where our students are at and helping drive learning forward. But as teachers, I think we have to be open to the fact that assessment is actually feedback for us and thinking, did I do as well as I thought I did? And what can I take from this assessment of my students, what trends can I say that's actually going to help improve my teaching and grow my pedagogy and what I am doing in my classroom. So, you know, not taking it personally, it's not about me as a person, but it's an opportunity for me to fine tune my practice. Absolutely. It's all about that, you know, who has understood the learning, who benefited from the learning and who didn't benefit and that that question of why, why haven't they benefited? What's stopping them from achieving that goal? What, you know, learning experience could have been better to help them achieve that or what pedagogical approach could I have used or can I use next time to better assist the students in achieving those learning outcomes? Do you guys think that could be a barrier to some of our teachers whether their early career or experienced in that assessment really is a teacher reflection tool, a self-reflection practice that if our kids aren't getting it, we can't always put it down to learning difficulty, welfare, barrier, attendance. It could just be that maybe we need to change our practice. Do you think that could be why some teachers are apprehensive to really delve into assessment? Definitely. You know, because if you think of it, it's like that, it's where they're putting it on us, you know, and I think that's a hard thing for a lot of us to do, not just teachers, but in any workforce. We often try and find like you were saying that or it was attendance or they've got a behaviour or they just don't understand this content. Well, how did I present this content? And I think it's interesting that Anna will dig deeper as we get into it, but how often do we ask students feedback on our lessons, but also how often do we include students when we are creating assessments or how often when we're assessing students, do they actually know what we're assessing them on? And why? And why? So I think that is a key part that a huge part of assessment is us self-reflecting as teachers on how we deliver the content. Yeah, it's been open to that vulnerability. The space of vulnerability that, you know, that level of impact, what impact am I having on the students? And if it's not a positive one or they're not, you know, achieving the way that we would hope that's that question of why? What is it that I'm not doing, not giving them, not being explicit enough in that instruction that is stopping that from happening? That's right. I don't have. I guess a key point you made, Alice, is vulnerability. And it's okay for you to reflect as a teacher and go, I probably didn't do my best job, but when you reflect upon that, you know next time that you deliver that content, you're going to do it differently. And that's okay, not to always get everyone. I think that's right. Self-reflection for a future topic, because that sounds like we could really go into things like that. Yeah, that's a big one. And James, you know, you said it you said it perfectly when we're talking about making sure that assessment is part of the teaching and learning cycle, that it's not something separate that we do as a side note, but coming back to that assessment for as and of learning that each of those has a purpose. You know, we we do assessment for learning to to go where are we going? What do I need to cover? Assessment as learning is that opportunity to grow and assess and students learning through that process, like you were saying James about understanding why we're doing it and where it's going. And then that summative at the end of assessment of learning and that feedback to us as teachers, how did I do? How was my teaching? Was it effective? Did it do the things that I wanted it to do? And understanding that it's at all of those stages, it should always inform what we're teaching. It's not something that I just do because I've got a tick of box, but it's purposeful and it's meaningful. And that's really important. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So great, great discussion there. We could probably keep going for the rest of the the episode, but there are other questions. There are other questions that have come in and we're getting in now into the, I guess the nitty-gritty of assessment and what it looks like. So the the next prompt or the next question to share our thoughts about is how do we create assessments? And I guess we've just talked about being purposeful, building on that how do we create purposeful and mean? meaningful assessment. - I was just gonna say that I think it's really important that, and you made the point before that, you know, it is part of the teaching and learning cycle. It's not an add-on. It's not, you know, oh, it's an assessment week. We're just gonna bombard the kids with assessment that it's important, that it links directly to the learning experiences that we're building for students and then it's an evidence of all of their learning. It's about the process of learning, not just about the product that they're producing and that it's accessible for all students. So that, you know, low floor, high ceiling, kind of learning experiences that allow kids of all abilities and all ranges to be able to equitably, equitably, I can't say that word, equitably, (laughs) access the assessment task and the learning task so that they can show what they truly know. - And apply it to other areas as well. - Absolutely. - Such a key thing when you're seeing it being applied in those other key learning areas or other contexts too. - Yeah, definitely. I think one of those things that we need to think about is I guess phases of learning and moving from that, I guess, base, not basic, but surface level knowledge and what does that look like? But how do we extend on that? How do we transfer and move into that deep learning and how do we actually assess that and, like you were saying back, can we relate those skills to new situations and circumstances? - And I think like the key important thing when we're going to create assessments is that we backwards, man. We go straight away back to our syllabus and we find out, well, this is what I'm going to be assessing and the point that Alice was making that when we assess students and we create assessments, we need to ensure that it's not a one-size-fits-all type of assessment that we provide the opportunity for students to develop and I guess show their understanding of what we've taught them in multiple ways. It's not just the one-size-fits-all approach that when we're creating assessment, we backwards, man. We ensure that there's multiple ways that students can demonstrate their understanding through that assessment task, but also a key part when we're creating as well is that across our stage that we're doing it in a collaborative process, we're not just going to find something online that meets our outcome that we're working as a team to create that assessment, but then we're also, again, depending upon the age of the students, and this will look different depending upon the stage you teach, but including students within that assessment process, whether it's that you're co-visiting a rubric or that it's at the end of the assessment and students appear reflecting and self-reflecting. - That also comes down to really good quality differentiation as well. We're very good, I think, in that conversation around differentiation of how we're planning, how we're programming the resources that we're making for kids, and the ways in which that we are teaching, but when it comes to assessment, those things also need to be differentiated as well. And I think sometimes maybe teachers feel like it's a cop-out if they're doing that, and it's really not. It's about getting kids to demonstrate accurately in their way what they've learned and being able to apply it. So there's really key questions that you can ask yourself to about establishing those differentiations. And the biggest thing is, am I conscious of this? Am I being consciously aware of the ways that I address individual learning, of the ways that I structure things, and we've even got into conversations at my own school at the moment about how we're differentiating oral instructions for our kids, because we're thinking so much of the resources and the curriculum and how we're differentiating that. Are we actually differentiating the way that we articulate these things to kids too? And it's such a big concept to get into, again, another topic for the future, but in terms of kids presenting that knowledge too, it's to be able to get the same idea of where the kids are at doesn't necessarily mean they're going to present it the same way back to you. - Yeah, absolutely. And like you were saying back about differentiating, I think it's important that as teachers, we're differentiating the means and using a variety of assessments rather than just, here's a bit of paper with some questions on it, answer the questions. I have known many students that that format does not allow them to truly show what they are able to do. And we're quite good like you were saying, back at differentiating and going with, I guess, different forms of assessing on the go, but when we come to sometimes an official, I guess, assessment task we fall back into that, let's do a paper test. But actually going, it's okay to have a different means, whether it's a task and I'm observing them and taking notes and trusting that anecdotal notes and observation is a valid form of assessment because I've got students who I put a paper test in front of them and they will not be able to demonstrate what they truly know and can do. Whereas I set them up with a task and I sit back and I watch and I take notes, that's going to be more valid data than giving them a set of 10 questions. - That's what I think formative assessment is, is the most powerful tool that we have in a classroom in helping us to map that student progress through assessment over time as opposed to, you know, here's a paper test answer these 10 questions, show me what you know on this single day based on 10 weeks of learning. - Like. - So does that say more though about summative processes or does that say more about how we create those summative assessments? Can we create better summative assessments moving forward? - Absolutely. (laughing) - Again, that comes down to a rhetorical question. - It's just out there for all the audience. But I mean, you know, we don't want to just, as much as I love twinkle and teach starter and all those things. We don't just want to jump on and grab someone else's assessment to target learning that we're creating and differentiating in the classroom. We have to differentiate and create those assessments too. Yes, it adds to the workload. But I mean, if you're in a collaborative teaching practice and environment, that will be a resource that will be shared and used again too. But that's, I think that's the reflection that I would want to take away too, is that if that assessment isn't giving me valid data, like you said, Aaron, then I need to change the assessment that I'm using. - And I think it's all about contextualizing, contextualizing the assessment for your setting for the students that you're working with. That yes, we can share, which is positive to share, but it's about being contextualizing it for your setting. Because I know we're always big in teaching. We don't recreate the wheel when we're not saying to recreate the wheel. It's about taking something, then contextualizing to make sure it's meeting the needs of the students within your class and stage and school. - Yeah, absolutely because like we just shared, isn't that the purpose of assessment? That's exactly why we do it. So making sure that that's what comes back to James is so important. - Yeah. - So he's a reality question, moving on from that one. How do we make it manageable for teachers? - Now, I'm gonna jump in here with the exec hat. And a lot of people know that one of my goals is working towards principalship. So I try and put the principal hat on a lot as I work towards that. And in terms of assessment and making things manageable for teachers, keeping in mind our conversation, where Aaron brought us to the phrase work life. - Satisfaction. - Satisfaction is what we're talking about. I can't knowingly as an executive, just add things to my teacher's workloads and then still spout work life satisfaction. That's not something that I can consciously do. In my own context, we have time dedicated to a specific time, for example, with me meeting with teachers to go through assessment and have those conversations. We structure our relief time with teachers so that they do have time together with their stage or team partners so that they can get together and work together when those times are available. If those things are not something that's embedded in your classroom practice, voice up. I really wanna empower teachers out there to say, if I am going to value the process of assessment and doing this in line with consistent teacher judgment with my teams and learn from each other, we need time dedicated to it. We can't be expected to do it from 3.30 to 4.30 on a random day that we just happen to have an afternoon where there's no meeting. You have to advocate for it as a teacher and might put people off side, but the more people that voice it, the more executive will hear it. And if the executive think that you are going to value that time and utilize it, they will try and find a way to put it into the timetable and utilize funds to go towards it. So in terms of making that manageable for you guys, if you have those chances on RFF or whatever to showcase to your executive that you will work together to do those types of things, you will start to see a culture change in your school because I can tell you now, if you're not going to value it yourself, there's no way the executive is going to sit there and go, yeah, yeah, let's allocate some time to that. Oh, let's give people additional release time in my own school, they're all getting half a day release at the moment to go through assessment stuff because we know it informs our practices. We know it's being used properly to put that stuff together. So if you're a teacher sitting in the car now going, well, my voice won't change anything, you've got to start somewhere. exactly right back and say if I am that teacher sitting in the car what would be my first step? So obviously you're supervisor that's your first point of call always and I know there's people out there that may not have a good relationship with their supervisor it happens I won't deny it that sometimes those relationships just don't necessarily glue together the way that we want them to you've got to have that conversation taking into account all the stuff that we've been talking about the teaching and learning cycle the fact that it is mandatory to assess and report and that it's a hindrance on your teaching practices if it's not valued we can even bring it back to the what works best documents assessment is in there every single New South Wales public school right now has been told you must use this document as a way moving forward with our school plan with all of our initiatives so you can literally bring that portion of the what works best document that is all of our assessment reader yourself go through the reflective tools that are on there and analyze the reflective tools assessment is in the school's excellence framework which every single New South Wales public school measured themselves against to be able to get to our new school plan and if your new school plan says in there that you are working towards you know delivering sustaining and growing or excelling it's there you don't need to come from a personal perspective you can come from that perspective that says this is what our employer says we are meant to be working towards this is what our school says we're meant to be working towards this is what CC says we're meant to be working towards you know all of this evidence is there that says this is a quality practice that we really need to embrace and I can't embrace that if I'm slammed with meetings if I'm slammed with all of these other expectations if I'm hit up making you know attendance phone calls and all of these other expectations that come on me if you want me to value assessment above all else you guys need to find a way to support us with it make it a collaborative process yeah absolutely yeah if you can go with your teacher buddy and have that conversation really openly and say look is there a way moving forward like this what can we do together it opens the dialogue absolutely I agree so I got to take away from what you were saying back how we've made it manageable it's about creating systems within our school whether it's creating the planning days wherever it's allocation of stage meetings regular stage meetings whether it's the allocation of key professional learning in in afternoons it's about the systems that we set up within our school because it is a priority it is important because if we're not doing it do we actually know where to go next within our teaching and learning yeah absolutely and like you just like even if you're making it those staff meetings in the afternoon that's fully within the school's control on how those things happen and how they're managed have admin meetings get rid of the admin meetings you know pick your priorities what's on there because I guarantee there's probably someone from a small country school listening game there's no chance that's happening because there's three teachers in our school or whatever it doesn't work that way you know if you forward map you've got a year to look at those key dates that you might be able to book people and get yourselves off an entire day to just look at assessment and delve deep there's there's ways around it it is possible if you get rid of that mindset and barrier that it just can't be done you've got to be strategic in in the way that you plan for that time absolutely yeah absolutely and I think what you said Beck is is taking the time to sit and have a plan and then move forward with that plan because I know in my situation we have a lot of people who go I've got this idea and one thing that always says great go away think about it come back with a plan any other tips on managing how do we manage assessment for teachers how do we make it manageable I would say you know coming back to the the I guess the fundamentals something that we probably all do but what Alice was saying before about thinking strategically about when we do it how we do it having those documents like assessment schedule or an assessment plan making sure that we don't have those I guess weeks like Beck was saying where it's assessment week and we're just assess assess assess assess because at the end of the day if that's our approach actually not going to get anything worthwhile out of our students so making sure that the assessment's meaningful and it's I guess well thought out about when it happens and and where it happens you know and why and the and the tool that we're using to assess yes I think that's a great point Alice like sometimes depending upon if we go into a new school setting if we go to a new stage and we get given our assessment schedule or if we're collaboratively putting together the assessment schedule and it's like okay we do this here and then you might be new to the stage well why or we've always done it like this well we'll why okay you do that assessment and then what do you use from the data from it okay then how do you use that data to inform your teaching if we can't provide those answers and that's what I always say with the teams that I work with if you can't justify the why you're doing something we'll get rid of it you know like like you mentioned back before yes there's sometimes mandatory things but within those mandatory things we're so lucky with what we do there's a lot of flexibilities we finish context of our schools that we're working yeah it's important to create more time for ourselves and again the key question we're talking about now is how we make it manageable I think you hit the nail on the head Aaron it's not assessment week it's not to earn one week five week ten that we chunk it all together going back to the point of we make it manageable by creating quality systems about the assessments that we do the time that we allocate to analyzing the data it's about if we're going to be having yes we have our assessment schedules because that's a mandatory thing that we're supposed to have however if we're not seeing assessment embedded into programs that's why people are having that workload and going oh I need to smash an assessment work and that's where it's not manageable if assessment is not embedded in that program somewhere that's why you're getting overloaded yeah needs to be on and now it's going in regular absolutely rethinking does it have to be like James was saying is what does it have to be this way I love when people come onto my team and come to me and say why are we doing this assessment do we have to do it this way I love having those conversations because I go no we don't have to let's let's rethink and like you were saying Alice instead of having this thing that we do every five weeks why can't we come up with a system where we're doing it ongoing and we don't have those weeks where we have to pump pump pump assessment assessment because it's ingrained in what we're doing all the time and that's going to be more valuable data than one random assessment or one random day at one point in time and we have to be able to I guess trust our instincts as teachers to go this is actually valid to do it this way I love when teachers do find another way to do something that's either less time consuming or still just as valid to be able to do that and trust me teachers out there that are listening we we want more succinct ways to do things as well so if you come to your supervisor and you think I've got this idea but they're not going to like it because it's something new no no we're always happy to try something new if it still gets this quality data and saves us some time always always serve up an option the worst we can say is no yeah absolutely so I think I guess what we've basically come up with in that discussion is let's rethink assessment yeah that's a key making it manageable let's rethink it does it have to be the way it is let's be more creative we'll move we'll move forward I think that moves nicely into the next question actually yeah so what what resources do we use to support assessment let's get creative how do we do this Alice do you want to start us considering we're running with our inquiry process how do you use assessment or what tools do you use so I draw upon Kath Murdoch's inquiry cycle to support my use of assessment in the classroom and with the teams that I work with and as Aaron said before it includes that ongoing teacher observation which is a perfectly valid form of assessment but it's looking at at you know the the questions that we ask and and you know when we're working collaboratively with each other you know bringing that those evidence of learning sets to the table and saying right you know here's where our students are at in a particular area here's where we're wanting to go how we're going to get them there what supports are needed what extensions are required you know who is you know not benefiting as much from this learning cycle as we would have hoped the question of why what it is what is it about the way that we're currently structuring our learning experiences that is that is not having the impact that we're looking for what is it that I'm either doing or not doing that's having that impact what else do I need to do to support that student and then looking at that that we're to next how what kind of learning experiences are going to help me to get the students where I want them to be that you know level of learning achievement what are the scaffolds and the structures that I have to put in place for those students to meet their needs so suppose it's about really you know engaging in that that rich dialogue with your team about the learning not just of the kids in my classroom breaking down those four walls and opening it up to the kids you know say in a stage our kids where are our kids at what is it what what is my expertise and what do I have to offer this team that is going to help our students collectively not just the kids within the four walls of of my room and engaging in those rich rich dialogues because we're better together we're smarter together. Exactly right Alison just adding on to what you were saying of your key points that what resources we can use to support us with with the creation of assessments like one of the first points I mentioned is backwards mapping again going back to our syllabus and looking at our school based scope and sequence then looking at our teaching and learning program then looking at that assessment that we said that we're going to be to be doing from that so I can't go past when we're using the resources go back to the syllabus of what it is said there look at that outcome look at the content that you had within your unit of work that's your resources and then obviously from there it's the point you're making else of we're smarter together we're better together we then discuss as a team how can we create different formative assessment opportunities throughout which is included in each lesson where we say our observations our anecdotal records our student self reflections maybe they're setting goals within that unit of work and then all the way throughout the unit where we get to the summative whether it's we've got a midpoint summative assessment end point summative assessment that we create multiple opportunities throughout that unit of work that we can assess a student understanding so then we're not just basing it on okay we've got a summative assessment result we're going to put that into a spreadsheet and that's how we're judging the students understanding based on that unit of work that's only using one data source for you to make that decision I'm always big about using a triangulation of data you know to help us make key decisions so I guess the resources that we use backwards map from our scope and sequence and work together to create multiple different assessment opportunities within that unit yeah the content is the content is really the driver of assessment the curriculum is where you start that's you know it's the but it's our Bible really and I think it's important that it's not just the content that we're looking at but also the process and the meta cognitive processes around the sit-around the understanding of that content you know Aaron mentioned before about identifying you know that levels of student understanding that surface deep and transfer learning and you know drawing upon students critical and creative thinking skills is a really valuable way to support that assessment process and really highlights where students are at in terms of their thinking and their understanding I always heard it yeah described same similar thing that the syllabus is the boss at the end of the day that's that's what we're accountable for is the syllabus and the curriculum and Alice exactly what you were saying about and James coming back to it but I think also looking at not just at where we want our students to be but actually going back where are they come from what are the I guess the building blocks that they are supposed to have established in order to move forward that's right but they're also having that horizon knowledge about where are they supposed to go beyond I guess the stage level that I'm at and not just having I guess that ceiling of this is where I need to get them to be but having that horizon knowledge of what's beyond that where else can I take them and breaking out of I guess that stage box or that gearbox or that grade box however your system is for education and outcomes but knowing where they're coming from knowing where this where they're at right now where they're supposed to be but also knowing where where else can I take them and thinking about that in our assessment approach oh sorry I was gonna say too not just going that vertical you know beyond our stage but also you know going for depth going across the curriculum looking at you know here's where they've come from he's where they're at how can I then help them to apply that level of understanding to other areas of the curriculum and draw those in to build a richer experience and a richer understanding of worldly knowledge that we want our students to to have and be able to apply and it's like that transfer knowledge that we were talking about yeah it's about what I was going to add to your point Aaron is we're not worrying about the age it's the stage of learning where their students are out whatever stage they're up to that's where we teach to meaning where all each individual student is on their own learning journey and depending upon what stage they're up to and they're learning journey that's what we teach them and then adding to your point others you know we go to the ADE scale and yes they might have shown a sound understanding of that content but how can we extend that understanding so that it's how high or deep understanding of the content that we're that we're teaching there's some misperception around that A to E scale as well thinking that they must be an A must mean they must be working in the next stage and that's not what it is that's correct that kid have like Alice described that really deep knowledge of that content because that outcome is the mandatory part the content isn't the content is for us to understand the ways in which that students can demonstrate the achievement of that outcome so for those people thinking they've got to hit all those content markers that's not what that is that content is they're just to support you it's the outcome and so if we really want to get that kid to get an A or if we think a kid is on track to get that B or that A it just means that they have that deeper understanding and application of that outcome that we're looking at and they can demonstrate it in multiple ways yeah exactly wrong yeah good point that one thing that we're talking about they're quite like you were saying is that confusion between the outcome and the content but sometimes out the outcomes let's let's be honest the wording can be quite technical and difficult to go well how do I break this down and well with yes ambiguous so I think for me a great resource that I love to use with my teams is the learning progressions because they are great at taking those big outcomes those I guess very technical and like Alice was saying maybe ambiguous statements and breaking it down into those short measurable behaviors that we can be we can observe and really using those as I guess learning intentions and success criteria going this is this is what this looks like and communicating that with our students and making them accountable for this is what we are looking for in order to get to this outcome absolutely and that's it's a great way which I think we're going to discuss in the next part though but in terms of how do we use that information that yields really refined information using the learning progressions that way too and they're so accessible so if there's someone who's not in the public system they're public documents those things if you go onto the Akira website and you can use those we have systems software where we can physically go in and track that and plot kids on software system to do that but if you're someone who's not in that system and you can just get the PDFs online or look at the progressions online you can print them off and use them they're still a really valid source yeah very good well what a huge huge conversation so far it's been so many things to to talk about last I guess question or thought is what can we do coming back to students and their role in assessment how do we and what can we do to provide student agency in assessment I'm going to revisit the point that I made before about it being student centric is that that doesn't just mean the individual student looking at their own goals so looking forward to things like using peer assessment and student rubrics and and by that I mean the teacher makes it with the kids so if you are using the progressions or learning intentions and success criteria that's the language that you apply you would apply to a rubric and even get the kids to create those things so that when they sit that assessment they know exactly what it is because they've had that conversation they know why they've done that learning they know what they're working towards and that really reduces that anxiety that comes with the word assessment or test or you know that's what's in the teacher's head pretty much yeah it gets rid of that ambiguity that we're about and that does make it completely student centric around the class and and they know what we're looking for they know it's just them demonstrating what they know yeah well it brings it draws them into that important part of the the teaching and learning cycle you know they're a huge player in the teaching cycle and the learning cycle and oftentimes they're missed in the assessment cycle and bringing and drawing them in helps to demystify the anxiety around assessment and helps to provide clarity around what it is that we're learning why we're learning learning it and that you know they're an important part of looking at well how will I know that I'm successful what is it that I need to do or to demonstrate to be able to show that I can achieve this and having those conversations with them building those rubrics those success criteria with the students is hugely valuable in that process. I agree look that's the key part for assessment as learning you know students are their own assessors of their learning and you know back in Alice you hit the nail on the head with the points that you were discussing that we create student student agency for assessment that there's peer assessment there's student self-assessment and reflection upon their learning students are regularly asking questions about their learning but also a main point like you guys were discussing that when it comes to complete an assessment that they know what success looks like I guess it relates back to the quality teaching framework of explicit quality criteria that you are providing them with what a good one looks like you know with any assessment that they do they understand the language within the rubric and they know what they're working towards to achieve and when it comes to those different assessments based upon their own self-reflection and the feedback that the teacher's provided they know what they need to do to take themselves to the next level. Absolutely well that is it who would have thought that we could talk for so long about assessment and it's only part one of this episode on the theme of assessment we hope that you've enjoyed this conversation and our chat about assessment looking back at the inquiry question for this episode about why is assessment an important part of the teaching and learning cycle if you've got thoughts to share with love to hear from you feel free to share them on our social media let us know your thoughts about why assessment is an important part of the teaching and learning cycle but we hope you will join us for part two of this episode on assessment and we will be looking at the question how do we make assessment data meaningful and valuable to our practice so we hope you will join us for part two of this episode coming very very soon