Episode 2 - Nicole Bell

[MUSIC] Hello friends and educators, we are Lauren and Ann and welcome to the informed educator podcast. Today's guest, we are very thrilled to welcome Dr. Nicole Bell, who is currently an associate professor at the School of Education at Trent University. Her research areas include indigenous culture-based education, infusion of indigenous knowledge into public schooling and teacher education, decolonization and healing, and indigenous research theory and methodology. Nicole is in the Shnaube Bear Clan from Kitegan ZB First Nation in Quebec. She is the mother of five boys and is passionate about indigenous education motivated by her educational experiences personally and as a mother. Welcome, Dr. Bell and Chimigwetch for joining us today. We will be discussing storytelling from a Nishinaabe perspective and as regular listeners know this podcast is recorded on the Williams Treaty and Treaty 20 territory of the Mitchisagig-Misisaga-Nishinaabe nations. Before we chat about Nishinaabe's storytelling we'd love to hear some of your story, Nicole. Could you tell us a bit about yourself and what led you to pursue a career in academia? Well, that's a very long story. We can keep it short and I always wanted to be a teacher. I think that started my very first day of kindergarten when I stood in front of that great big easel with those pucks of paint in the troughs. And I thought I had died and gone to heaven and I said I want to go to school every day. And so that's what I've been doing. When I was doing my teaching degree, however, I came to the realization that education really needed to be done differently for indigenous kids. And as an indigenous person that was public schooled, I knew what it was like to not have those identity cultural souls in me filled up through my schooling environment. And I did not want that for my kids. And so it was during my bed that I my mission then became if I feel that education should be done differently for indigenous kids, then what would that look like? And so that led me into continuing on to do my master of education where I focused on my own experience as an indigenous kid that was public schooled. And then had this vision of wanting to open an initiative by culture based school because I I saw that the system, the public system was not changing fast enough for my kids. And I wanted them very much to have a different experience. And so I stayed on to do my my PhD where my my focus was just that what would initiative a culture based education look like in the contemporary context such that our ancestors could look down and smile upon it. And so that led into to the opening and operating of a national by culture based school in the community that I currently live in that I married into, which is in the Mitchesock, territory, our community of burly falls. And then because of funding, it's very hard to fund private schooling or like a charter school. We don't have a charter school system in Ontario, but essentially that's that's the work that I was doing and. And so the school could not stay operational because we just did not have a sustainable source of funds to keep it going. And so then I moved into teaching the teachers here in the school of education at Trent University to try and create change that way to try and get teachers to perhaps think about how we could do education differently and certainly better for indigenous kids. Thank you. One thing that I really appreciate about your research and scholarship, Nicole is that whereas so much of academic scholarship across disciplines stays in the realm of theory and philosophy and thinking yours certainly has theoretical strong theoretical foundations, but you've really quickly from my perspective moved into practice and action and change. And starting the Anishinaabe culture based school is an excellent and like profound example of that. And then also I don't know if you wanted to mention the I bet program, the indigenous bachelor of education program that we have at Trent University that we're very proud of. But yeah, the research your work seems to be very much grounded in rationale and theory, but also and these are the steps forward and let's do them now we don't need to wait. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, all of that comes from the direction that I got from elder via Martin because when I was challenged as a parent with a child who no longer wanted to attend public school. And I remember I was I was just starting my PhD program and I was heavy in the coursework as my first year I was deep in the in the coursework and hear my son didn't want to go to school anymore and I wasn't going to make him getting an education. I wasn't an option in my home and education you're going to get, but how you get it is an option in my home and I remember elder via Martin who I've worked with very deeply through a lot of healing work and the opening of a healing organization actually here in Peterborough with her. She was she was guess speaking in our PhD class one day and I stayed after class to talk with her and I presented her with my dilemma. As a full time PhD student and I'm other with a child who didn't want to go to school and I was like, I want to do you know and she just looked across the table at me like she does you know she is very good at putting stuff in our face and making a deal with it and. And she just said to me she said Nicole you've been thinking dreaming and talking about this school long enough it's time to just do it and that's why my work has been titled just do it that was that was her kind of giving me the kick in the pants to get on with it you know I tend to be a person and I still struggle with this to this day where I feel like I have to know it all first before I can do it. And and I keep learning over and over again that that doesn't have to be the case that we're never going to actually know it all and if we wait until we know it all it's never going to get done. So so yeah so my my work in the school really became a journey of figuring out how to do it as we were doing I think that's really speaks to the nature of education right like I think a lot of educators worry about. If you think about something or bringing something into the classroom that they don't feel that they know and in my my personal experience even when you think you know it you don't really know it. It's you don't know what you don't know kind of thing so I think it's really amazing that you're you're doing this work with teacher pre service teachers and you're modeling that for them. And I think that's really really especially important in the context of bringing Indigenous perspectives into the classroom and decolonizing our current education system. So turning a little bit to stories which I'm quite excited to talk about. William Betta Samosaki Simpson who is a local Anishinaabe academic feminist artist and member of Alderville First Nation has written that stories I have a quote here from the gift is in the making. Teach both individuals and collectives how to promote nurture and maintain good relationships how to how to function within a community how to relate to the land how to make collective decisions and how to be a good person. Thomas King who many of our listeners may be familiar with who's an American Cherokee writer and scholar has written that quote the truth about stories is that that's all we are and that's in his work the truth about stories. So having said that what would you like to share today about storytelling from an Anishinaabe perspective. Right well I think I'll start with what Tom says that stories is that's all we are I think that's so true that each one of us as a person is a collection of all all of our personal stories that come together to create this grand story of our lives right and. So I think that's important to to acknowledge and recognize and then what Leon is talking about is so true to because storytelling was and I want to say still is a way in which indigenous peoples across nations educated their children. It was it was the pedagogy was one of the key pedagogies that was used to teach our kids what it was that they needed to know and so I always say that is indigenous peoples we are storytelling people. But I also want to acknowledge that if you you know I think all cultures are storytelling people and and I think if you dig deep enough in any culture you're going to find their stories. Nations have maybe perhaps been a bit better at maintaining those stories and continuing the transmission of those stories down through their generations than perhaps others but but but they're there. And so as a pedagogy for learning we had many different types of stories. And this is a fairly commenting across other nations but I am going to speak in the national best specific because that's that's who I am. But we have many different types of stories we had stories that kind of explained for kids kind of why things are the way they are how things came to be that way in the first place. And in the initial band nation a lot of those types of stories are connected to our trickster figure a trickster teacher figure which is an anniversary of whose job it was to travel the earth identify everything's gift and to give it a name. And so if we just think about that collection of stories and I tell kids when I do storytelling with them when you look outside everything you see out there has a story every type of tree every flower that you see every animal that you see there's a story for every one of those things from that work that nanobozo did. There's also you know the very first and grandest story of the mall that that that my elder has has taught me and and she says it's the biggest and grandest story of the mall which is the creation story. And you know that tells us how things came to be at the very very very beginning. And you know she also says that you know everything we need to know as human beings is in that one story it's just layered and layered and layered with with teachings and so the learning really becomes a journey of of coming to know these stories deeper and deeper and deeper levels which is why the practice of repetition is so important. So for example in my nation winter is the storytelling time for the nanobozo stories in particular there are other stories that we can tell across the other seasons but we don't tell the nanobozo stories in the other seasons other than the winter time. And our reasoning for that is is you know somebody's talking about you kind of want to know what they're saying. And so because those stories have to do with everything that exists out into the in the natural world. We don't want to disrupt natural process and cycle of things that are happening out there in the natural world we know in the winter time a lot of those things are sleeping the plants. The trees are resting there's animals that are resting there's animals who just completely left the area and so it's it's our slow time of year. And so when we tell when we talk about them in these stories we're not kind of interrupting what they're supposed to be doing which they are busy at doing in the other seasons so. So yeah it's important that that we follow those practices but so in my school for example when the winter season was coming the kids was starting excited because they knew that they were going to be hearing those sets of stories right and they get excited and and they knew what stories they were going to hear because they heard them before but they want to hear them over and over and over again and would request certain stories to be told. And and that that part of that repetition is so important because that's that's how we get to know a story we have to hear it over and over and over again and the transmission of that story throughout the generations is relying upon that younger generation to to learn those stories. You know in our in our communities in traditional times we had a storytelling society whose job it was to do that work that's not quite so active anymore but I told I told my kids in my school for example you know it's it's your responsibility to learn these stories so that you can pass them down and and tell them. And so that's why they had to hear them over and over again and there's also a set of teachings that we call kind of like teachings their stories that that are to are to teach us certain things so I'm thinking of you know the stories that we have for some of the cultural practices that we do such as the sweat lodge. There's a story about how the sweat lodge came to us as a people. The seven grandfather teachings that a lot of people are familiar with this story about how those teachings came to us as a people run and so there's there's all of those stories there's also the the historical stories of the oral the oral historical record that gets carried through some of our stories as well so significant events that have happened in the past. The oral stories get get maintained forward and this is why I think it's important that oral tradition that we recognize oral the oral record as valid as the written record. Yeah so those are just some of the categories I guess you could say of the different stories where we have. Yeah I just want to say one of the things when I first so I did my PhD at Trent and I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to hear stories from some elders and knowledge keepers and when I first having been raised in a you know very Western environment colonized et cetera. One of the things that I didn't understand at first and that I have come to really appreciate and look forward to understanding further is the importance of repetition and that depth and complexity and the ability of the story to I don't know if I'm saying this right but almost grow with the person like as you hear the story throughout your life. There are new lessons that are that are perhaps revealed to you and this was a very new concept to me because in my life growing up and some listeners might resonate I heard two types of stories well actually three I took the first word stories specifically written for children that had fairly obvious morals you know like some of the fairy tales do this don't do that and they were it was very clear they were for children adults weren't really supposed to engage. Then I heard biblical stories which were for adults however and this is only my perspective so others may disagree which is of course okay but from my perspective I always felt like those stories were taken a little bit literally and that perhaps there could be some metaphor and symbolism that we could really you know we could study the stories but instead we were just hearing them and taking them quite literally and then I heard my family stories which were the most enjoyable my father is quite a storyteller for sure. And I all that is just to say that I didn't really have an understanding of of the complexity of a story and how through repetition person can. Actually almost have a relationship with that story throughout their life and then perhaps at the end of their life well I'm not sure how that works when when one becomes a storyteller you know what I mean like can a child in anishnabe culture can a child be a storyteller is there particular time of life that it is appropriate for that person. To begin telling the stories themselves and I suppose that isn't really a clear question but I'm just interested in the cycle of the life and the story like one's life and the story with them yeah absolutely I think I think I think we're all storytellers and children can be wonderful storytellers for sure. But there is there is the the role of of the people in our community who had to learn the stories and to try and keep them as true to their to to their form to transmit them through through the generation that was that was a particular job so to speak right to make that happen but you're right the stories. Do travel with us through our life stage journey and and because they were told over and over and over again they would be heard you know from very little you know right on up into into older adulthood and and that was a part of the the pedagogy of stories I think in that the meaning that we make from a story comes comes from our own self so we in my nation anyway we don't tend to as the storyteller to tell the audience who is listening what that story means what they're supposed to do. It means what they're supposed to get from it we leave that to the listener to make their own meaning and so when when a little one here's a story you know they make they make their meaning from their from their world as a as a young person and then if as a teenager and they may hear the same story and it takes on a different meaning and then as an adult the story takes on yet in even another and so the the stories kind of grow in their capacity by which to contain. By which to continue teaching us as a people and it's those layers of layers of layers that that that we keep building and we keep going deeper so that that is definitely a characteristic of the of the process of storytelling. I'll give you an example that that I had when I was teaching because you wonder is a teacher sometimes is what I'm sharing with these kids going beyond these school walls like are they taking it out into their real life in their real world and you know those kinds of thing how are they applying what they're learning or even are they you know those are our questions that I think we commonly have as educators and I remember one day. I can't remember exactly what it was that I was that I was talking about and I was teaching the little ones at the time and but I use the word greed and and I thought I thought my head okay oh wait that might be a big word for for these little ones so I said do you know what I mean when I when I say the word greed right. And hear my little little one year old girl you know says yeah that's um that's like when Nana Bojo was hungry and he was wanting to get a goose to eat and instead of just taking one he tried to tie them all absolutely you can get them right and I was like bang on that's that's right and so you know you just you just never know. How kids are going to use what they learn in these stories and their everyday life I remember another time when I was talking to parents. So this was this was an application in their home life where they were just going for a walk in the community and the lie locks are in bloom and so the mom wanted to bring some of the locks home to put in the house and a vase and and her little ones and no no no no you can't do that because we don't have any semma we don't have any tobacco right because our teachings our teaching stories tell us about how we're supposed to use those medicines. And so you know they had to walk all the like long and get some semma in order to be able to take from the earth or pick from the earth which was which is what is in our teachings right. That might actually transition into our next question. So if I could just jump in I'm connecting with what you're saying I spend a lot of time as you both know thinking about climate the climate crisis and best practices for climate change education and in many ways what we're doing is writing the story as we go right where in the classroom trying to figure out. How we can best prepare students for this uncertain future that awaits them and we're asking them to become involved in a solutions oriented approach right we're saying we don't have the solution for this. But now I'm thinking of what we're missing there in the context of stories right what stories are missing from our practice and you know that could help us with. Well what do we already have at our disposal that could help us with a way forward right. Because in a lot of ways we continue to repeat past mistakes I mean every time I listen to the highlights on the news I'm reminded of all the mistakes that are repeating and how we already kind of know what's going to happen if we go down this road. So that leads into the next question of in the time of a global climate crisis what insights might stories offer in our classrooms. For me they're definitely a part of the foundation that is required to do what it is that we need to do as human beings. Because it's in the stories that you develop that that respect relationship the reciprocity that is needed in those relationships to then move into the place of responsibility responding with our abilities. And actually do something and and and make the change that is required. So stories can be a big part of doing that work the the other approach that I often take in my work when it comes to developing that respect and reciprocal relationship with the natural world is is using what I call affective pedagogy. And it's it's it's the heart work. It's connecting the head to the heart and and I think stories really really help us do that work. I always say when my students are feeling I know that they are learning because I think it's maybe impossible to learn something if you're if you're you know to not learn something if you're feeling something about it. So these stories help us to to develop that that heart connection to the natural world to help build that relationship to see that we as human beings are inextricably linked to everything in the natural world that you know if we go back to the creation story for example you know when I work with the creation story with students and I and I do that with little ones all the way up to my adult learners. And and I say you know if my older says everything we need to know as human beings in this is in this story then what are those things and and one of the big ones for me is that we as human beings came here after all these other things were here first. So what does that mean then for our responsibility is human beings right because we can't exist without that sun shining we can't exist without the air to breathe we can't exist without water to drink we can't exist without food to eat. So so that situates us I think in in in a very clear sense of responsibility about what it is that we are supposed to be doing that as human beings and and and I mean human beings regardless of what culture you are what religion you are what color your skin is because we're all human beings and we all need those things so then it becomes a real collective. Movement and working together and I think as indigenous people one of the things that we can offer up to this grand problem that we all have as human beings are our stories and our world view that is embedded within those stories how we see the world can help us developed that that heart shift that I think needs to happen. So that we change the way in which we see the world we change the way in which we relate to this world and then that leads into doing things differently I think. So you say you're talking about effective pedagogy and this hardship and this important of feeling and we want our students to be feeling something in response to what we're learning about together but do you think that's also important then for educators to think about such that if I'm not feeling something while I'm teaching or feeling something about the content I'm being I'm bringing into the classroom then perhaps I'm not. Creating and the optimal conditions for learning do you think it's it's kind of a theoretical piece but the what I'm connecting to is something that I heard once when I was teaching grade seven somebody said if you're not uncomfortable while you're teaching the students aren't learning and I I connected that to you should be engaging in ongoing learning and you don't need to feel like you know everything in order to bring it into the classroom. But you should feel that it's important when you do. Yeah I think I think to me you're speaking about passion it's like if you if you if you have the passion for what you're you're teaching about I think that really does help to mobilize the learning with your students you know there there's nothing wrong with and I actually encourage teachers to like learn alongside their students right you don't you don't have to know it all you can learn alongside with them. And and and be humble enough to acknowledge that you know I don't know where we're saying about this but I think it's important that we learn about it so let's do that together right. Do you then have any advice for indigenous or non indigenous teachers who would like to engage with storytelling in their classrooms and that's a big question because there's so many different types of storytelling. And I don't necessarily mean inish nabe stories many of our listeners are not in anish nabe people however perhaps there are some appropriate ways to engage with inish nabe stories. And I suspect that many of our teacher candidates are curious about that so yeah any thoughts about how teachers who wish to engage with storytelling might do so in a good way. Well I'll start by saying that there are certainly differing opinions about how we can or cannot take up this work. So this is the Nicole Bell version but I will say that that that you know my opinion in my direction that I give to teachers is informed by what I have been taught. By the elder that I predominantly work with and I take these I take my questions to her all the time around how can we do this work in a good way and in an appropriate way and I take I take her direction. So I guess first first of all I would say we do have to make a distinction between the sacred and the cultural or the sacred within the cultural. Everything about us is indigenous peoples is cultural but there is a category of culture that is considered to be sacred and and and that sacred knowledge is only shared by those who have earned the right to do so. And we have a process in our nations by which we gain that right and then we're given permission once it's deemed that that we we have learned it well enough right and so coming to know what is considered sacred and and what you should kind of like then stay away from doing is is important to know. When it comes to stories specifically I would say that do not or really tell any stories unless you have earned the right to do so. But there are stories that you can bring into your classroom through what I call first voice which is indigenous people themselves telling these stories. And that can happen by we have we have elders on videos that we can put on the screen who are telling stories. We have you can certainly bring an indigenous person into the classroom in person. I know that can be challenging sometimes we also have stories that have been written down by indigenous people that can be read or kids can independently read on their own. So that's that's an in mean about bringing first voice you're not telling these stories indigenous people are telling these stories through these varied formats. And then I would say that as teachers the more that you develop your cultural capacity your understanding of the culture that a story comes from. The better able that you're able to help your students clean the meaning from those stories right. So I would say keep learning as much as you can about certainly about your local indigenous nations around you and and bringing their voice into your classroom through story as well. But the more you know about about how we see the world the better able your help you can make you can help your kids make sense and meaning from those stories. I think it's it's good practice to always acknowledge the nation from which the story comes that's important and I think that also helps to debunk this myth that we're all the same as indigenous people which we are not. We are many nations. I think it's also important to kind of adhere to the cultural protocols that exist for stories so for example the stories that we only tell in winter. I would I would I would follow that practice of only addressing those in the winter and then any other cultural practices that may exist for any kind of category of stories. I would say also to think about the diversity of stories that we have and and share that diversity with students so that they understand that that that that storytelling is very rich rich and our nations and carries a lot of meaning and cultural practice within our within our communities. And and then I would say you know to to remain as true to the stories as as they are presented to to respect their cultural integrity and preserve the teachings that are embedded within them as as well. Yeah, I think that one of the challenges that teachers sometimes may have I know I have in the past is when sharing a story and let's say you're sharing a first voice story through video or in written text I know there's children's books that have been written by first nations. I know that for me sometimes it's a little bit difficult to know how to then engender good and deep conversation with the class I'm not necessarily sure how to help them engage with that story well. If you ask some children probably because this is how many western stories are are just kind of looking for a very surface value this is literally what happens and here's the message or maybe there is no message maybe it's just entertainment this is the adventure they have and then it's done and maybe that's okay some of the time but some educators might do you have any tips or strategies for helping to facilitate the discussion in the class that happens after they first hear the story. Yeah well I I would say like I use I use medicine wheel pedagogy in in my teaching and that includes working with story to so when I'm using story with learners of various ages I I always make sure that we take the time in the southern direction on that medicine wheel where that gift of time sits. And give the learners opportunity to really relate to the learning and that relating has to do with that feeling that heart connection right so engaging with the arts is kind of how I do that because you know and I remember my elder always saying the arts anchor the learning in the body right and so and so you know it's never it's never me just telling a story it's having the students engage with the story relate to the story and some kind of a rich and meaningful way so we often do that outside we go outside and we create nature art. You know so for example the creation story the creation story there are there are seven fires or seven errors of time that are represented in that story and and so we do whole part whole learning where the students students become aware the eastern direction on the wheel become aware of the learning by by coming to know the whole story and I do that by a written a written document of that story by a prominent elder in our community so I it's not it's not a story that I even or a little I use his voice to tell that story and then and then they'll break off into groups and they will use things found in nature to represent what that fire of creation talks about and then we come back together and we put the whole story together by going around in order the sequence of the story to the different nature art pieces and seeing the meaning that the students have made from that part of the story through their nature art and so we come back to the whole story. And so that's that's getting into the south giving them time to relate and then when we move to the west and we're really wanting to use that gift of reason to really kind of figure out what the learning is to kind of build that knowledge that's you know that's where we can kind of talk about you know the meaning that they have made asking them you know what what the learning was that was kind of going through them as they were doing their their activity or or giving them those those guiding questions such as I just said earlier like if if this story has everything in it that that we need to know as human beings what are those things then what what does it teach us right and and unpacking that with the students and then and then not even stopping there because we still have to go to the north where we have to use that gift of movement we actually have to do something with her learning. So then it becomes okay well what what how can this story perhaps guide us into how we as human beings should be in this world right like what what should we be doing what's our responsibility and and helping them kind of unpack that so so for me when when when I when we use that medicine we'll pedagogy going all the way from the east all the way around to the north. I think where we're providing like a rich learning opportunity for our kids. I hate that I'm asking this question but I love what you just described it's very student centered and it positions the teacher as a co-learner with the students who's open to students interpretations of stories and what meaning they make and what they want to do with that learning. In a system that's very success based and success is defined in a very specific way knowledge and marks how could an educator who wanted to incorporate this into their classroom also feel like they were perhaps meeting those expectations or how might they rethink their approach to assessment in this context. I think the curriculum expectations are broad enough that we can fit we can fit this stuff into I mean I I do I do feel that there is there is some lack of an indigenous world view that we can perhaps find in the and I say that because I used to be somebody who reviewed the the curriculum documents before they came out and it was my job to add in some of those indigenous examples at the ends of the expectations so the teachers could be cute. Oh here's a place where I can integrate something indigenous in right but I had I had a problem trying to fit those examples into the ways in which those expectations were constructed right. So the framework of the expectations perhaps don't allow for this world view to be present so it takes I think some creativity on the teachers part to find where this type of learning does fit within the curriculum. You know when it comes to you know assessing that I think as teachers we have to always pay attention so that so that that you know the observations and the conversations that are happening when those learning activities are taking place with story. And then it could also be in in the product like if you're having kids produce a piece of nature art that's a product right and and so we can. You know triangulate the assessment in those ways even though we're outside. You know kids are making their own meaning they're doing their own thing you know we can we can still assess all of that. I believe that at this moment in time we as in humans really do require change to flourish and survive moving forward and I would define that as change at the level of being and not just change at the level of knowing. So part of my work is searching for some of those transformative agents of change and in my work I look to the arts and I love that you've you've spoken about the arts a few times just holistically throughout this talk but also looking to story and to indigenous world views and and and thought could perhaps be some of those transformative agents of change so. Congratulations on your work past and present and ongoing and is there anything else you would like to say today no I would just add to what you just said that you know storytelling is an art form. And and I would even say to some degree I a lost art form that needs to be reclaimed. I have I've gone into public schools and done storytelling with kids and you know I've had situations where when I was done telling a story when the kids were busy working on the learning activity that they were doing with that story you know the teacher comes up to me. And says like you could have heard a pin drop in this row lately and or they'll say something like little Johnny winner I have never seen him set still and quiet and listen like he did right and it's it's it's not me I don't have no magic wand. It's kids are thirsty for storytelling I think they're thirsty for it and they don't get enough of it in their lives so. So yeah it's an art form that really needs to be reclaimed. Gemma Gwetch. We would like to acknowledge that this episode was recorded on Mitchis Suggig Mrs. Saga territory treaty and traditional at Trent University in Peterborough no Gojo and on Ontario Canada. We are grateful to the First Nations of this territory for their teachings about and care for the land on which we teach and learn the podcast was made possible by a Trent University knowledge mobilization grant and is skillfully edited and produced by our friend James Bailey. James Bayley.