Episode 2 - Grail Games & Systems

[MUSIC] >> Good day, listeners, and welcome to another episode of Cardboard Campaigns. I'm Kevin Halls. >> And I'm Don Levyck. >> And we're excited to talk to you today about Grail Games and Grail systems. But before we do that, Don, something autocorrects need to be mentioned from last episode of some kind. What do you got for us? So in my re-listening of the podcast, and I needed to do that for several reasons. One, to figure out where I screwed up and second to bump up our listening numbers. So that if anyone looks at how many streams we've had, I kept running around my house and logging in from different computers and devices. So it looks like we have all these different unique listens. >> Congratulations, we made it to seven listens, folks. >> There you go. So we're hoping for double digits in this month. So tell your friends. So I wanted to make just three comments. One is, so I talked about the stratomatic club that I'm in, that I help run in around the Philadelphia area. And I talked about how great a group of guys it is. And actually one of our players is a woman who actually listened to the podcast amazingly. And corrected me that she was in, that she's part of the club. So I wanted to shout out to her to make sure she knew that she's part of it. And then when I listened to the podcast last time, I think I may have given sort of an incorrect representation of how I felt about next war. And just because I talked about the length. But I got to say it's probably my favorite Hex and Counter system. And as much just because of the depth of play, the combined arms, the thorough order of battles and just the amazing support that you get when you're playing this game. And you have any questions. So consequently, games like this require a lot of time just in terms of planning strategy and then reacting to your opponent. And then working through the procedural aspects, because it is a highly procedural game. And as Mitch always says, when in doubt, just follow the sequence of play as carefully as you can. I talked about how Bill and I played for greater than a year to get through next word Vietnam. And in retrospect, we did it. And we chose to play the game for that long because we both found it so provocative and challenging and fun. So there was never a time where we talked about what a slog it was or anything like that. We came back week after week because we were really having a good time. So I just want to make sure that that sort of came through. And then my last correction was in a couple people brought this up to me in comments that I talked about when I was in med school. And I was talking about the introductions and that I met my wife in med school. I want to be clear that I cheated off of my wife for exams and things. I did not cheat on my wife. So for those that may have thought they heard that it was definitely not true. And I'm not that kind of guy. So so those are my corrections from week one. Kevin, I don't know whether you had any comments from week one. I'll just clarify that I definitely don't see your wife standing behind you with a kitchen knife. And that that was very sincere and legitimate. That's all I have to say on that matter. And and did it on the next four one. And I think something I would just add to that is listeners will probably notice that we'll go through cycles as we do these recordings of games that just constantly keep coming up during the episodes. And the reasons will be that between Don and I since often we are also playing these games together. They're what we've been playing lately. So please don't early on and our recordings get the impression that you know this is a next four or any other game system exclusive podcasts is just you'll you'll hear focuses drift in and out as we go through and. We have so much attention towards one game at any given time because we'll talk a little more about next four later on in the episode two not too much but a little more. And yeah, we'll tease that out a bit. Don on the topic of next one what we've been playing what have you had on your table lately. So right now on on Vassal like as I said last month and it's ongoing I have a Vassal game of next war Vietnam. I started playing Star Trek Captain's chair, which is a solo or two player. Deck building game and it's been so I played about three or four games so far. I played it both sort of solo two handed which is a little tough because you have a hand of cards and so you know what when you know what the other person has it affects things a little bit and then I've also played with the solo bot. So it's a fun game. It's a good deck builder so that the version that's out has six captains that you can use Jean Luke Picard, Ben Cisco, Michael Burnham from Discovery. Coloth, one of the Klingon captain, seal of the Romulan captain and Shran who's an Andorian. And so for those that know the Imperium system it's based on the Imperium system in terms of rules with a little bit of additional chrome. So I do not have that system the only other deck builder I really have is the undilunted series. And so there's a little bit of similarity but this is you know sort of functions much differently with more tablo then being it on a you know almost like a hex encounter grid to move people along. Honestly at first I thought you were going to say Star Trek captain's log because I know you've played that and that's a solo RPG game but this is Star Trek captain's chair. I actually don't know that I heard of this interesting. So it's from WizKids it was released. I think it came out six months ago. They've already announced which you know I was going to get to when we talk about sort of stuff that's up and coming but they've introduced to. Expansions already one is called the second contact and that's an expansion that adds a few more captains including one from the Cerritos for any Star Trek lower decks fans and also Christopher Pike. And then a standalone which looks sort of almost you know the same components as the original captains chair called boldly go and that has Kirk and Khan. You have to say that whenever you and then Philippe a George from Discovery and then another lower decks captain red nor who's a pack lead commander so those actually I think you know we were going to talk about stuff we pre order that's on my list that'll come out in December. And then other things and you're right I did play I so I I I did just finish a solo RPG adventure with Star Trek captain's log which is the solo and I added in some elements from some of the full Star Trek adventures books that I that I obtain so. The different packs don't do they are they more so just you know flavor ads hey you get to be Kirk this time instead of a card but otherwise it's the same or do those new packs and mechanics and such to the game system. So I think my understanding is that the mechanics will be very similar I'm sure they'll try and add a little bit but the captains are all asymmetric and so they have different goals they each come with their own deck of cards so there's a bunch of shared cards in like this central marketplace where you can acquire cards into your hand or into your deck. But then each captain has their own set of cards which have some base ships and some base personnel because you can promote one of the persons either from your own deck or that you obtain from the marketplace as your first officer and that adds functionality so that the goal are different by captain and their decks are different and so they play. They actually do play very differently when you play them and so it's you know reminds me of some other sort of asymmetric games like route where you know you got to play everybody differently you know the it's the base rules are the same but how you approach the the strategy for that faction or that captain is is very different. Sure got it. So that's been mostly what I've been playing actually broke open today a total non war game called vantage it's the latest release from stone Meyer games and it's a cooperative one to six player open adventure type of exploration game. It's got some unique mechanics in there and it comes with I forget 1800 cards and six or seven story. books that you refer to, you know, when you when you decide to do something, it'll say go to this book and this entry, almost like a choose your own adventure. But you've got to, there's some dice management that comes into it and and you can play cooperatively or solo. So I just actually broke that out this afternoon. So I'm still sort of going through the rules and set up. The impression I've always gotten from you, Don, is that Stone Myer in your family is an instant buy when the new title comes out. Is that a fair assessment? Pretty much. I think I have and I think I said it last time, you know, it started with Sive and then, you know, Ring Span was is still a huge sort of, you know, play in our family and actually made it into, I performed my daughter's wedding back in May and I spoke about it then and then she actually spoke about it in her vows. And so it was, so we, you know, so all the spans were are well represented in my family and then like I said, Sive, Vita culture, you know, we've played here and there. So yeah, I think there was only one or two games that he's come out with recently that either I bought and sold or didn't even buy just because it just didn't seem like it was a good fit. Yeah, there always be one or two of those, but. Yep. It's about you, what have you been now that the baseman's done, right? It's time to break out the games. Yeah, I think we will be in perpetual like finishing touches mode, but I'm going to avoid any flack on the home front by talking about that too much tonight. But yeah, great, great status there. I just stay stereotypical, have been very heavy into BCS this last month. So inflection point came and I, I can't remember when we record it last if inflection point had just arrived. I think it may have. It had because you had the, you had the blurry maps, right? And then so you had already broken it open for the blurry maps and I think you've, you've gotten the replacement maps. I actually got my copy which only has the the non blurry maps, but I haven't, I haven't opened it yet. Yeah, I think they took all the blurry ones and just for the insurance money probably throw them into a garbage can and live it on fire or something, but we'll see. I, I've been playing a lot of inflection point this past month and it's been just an absolute blast. I, I think I've made mention of this in a few places, but it is certainly my second favorite BCS title. Hands or last stand is my favorite mostly due to the activation mechanic that that game introduces to the series. This though is just a perfect size. That's one thing. Second, one page of game specific rules that you have to look over. Three, it's a box that has two, I would consider very complete games within it. That's always a bonus to get a, a duel or a tri-pack in any, any package, right? And then lastly, and this is a unique just inflection, but as with in my opinion, OCS, SCS, BCS, they shine best on the East Front. I think these systems that Dean designed really were meant for that theater in my opinion as a player and Carl has done a fantastic job with making sure that that shines an inflection point too. It's just, it's been a great pleasure to play it. I'm sad I'll probably be packing it up in the next week to get some new stuff to the table, but that has been set up pretty much since the day it arrived. And I've been playing off and on that game nonstop since that arrived. And that's been great. Are you are you playing that solo to handed or again, is there someone around that you're playing? Yeah, just solo at the moment. I don't know that the Vassal modules come out yet when it does drop or when I remember to look for it. I probably will try to get an opposed to play on Vassal, but I don't believe that's out yet. And locally, there aren't many folks in the the BCS space that I could quickly get a game of the scheduled with. So we'll, uh, that's a, that's a good point though that I hadn't thought about. This probably is for somebody who does know the BCS system. This probably is the best title that's out there right now for just a game day BCS game. Because with Eric Court, it's again designed as that intro to the system learning thing. So if both players know BCS, it's a good game, but it, and maybe it's just, I'm going to say the word light and I'm going to regret it, but it's just maybe not quite as depth. There's not as much depth to say, I think, inflection point provides, but you can still get through it in the day, I feel. So yeah, I'll have to think about scheduling something now that you say that. The other thing that I've been playing and we've just started. So there's, there's not too much here, but we've begun a last blitzkrieg play, you and I Don, and looking forward to that and, you know, with our records, it'll probably only take about five or six years for us to finish that campaign scenario. So we'll have to start thinking about what we're going to play after that. Right. We've always got a plan. When you've played all your BCS because you've played, you know, hundreds more hours than me. Have you ever tried, have you ever tried it with sort of the random chit pull activation? Or have you always played it where you just decide which, which formation to activate? Yes, I would actually say that more often than not, I do the chit pull. I think that's a controversial take. I've heard lots of folks say they don't like that in this system. I'm a fan and I think you're in the same camp of chit pull is always a great mechanic in a game. I like it. I enjoy having chit pull in there. And it's pretty rare that I'll sit there and I'll do, okay, Soviets, now Germans, Soviets, now Germans, the more traditional method of formation activation. Yeah. And then less, less on the war gaming side, although maybe there'll be hot takes with that. Chess lately in the house has been a big topic. So we're looking to sign my son up for a chess club this fall and just starting to teach and introduce some to the mechanics and such. And I for full transparency, and there are very consistent ways of measuring this. By all definitions, I am a below average chess player. I'm actually quite, quite awful. So I have hopes that he can be better than I. And it's a little bar. Yeah, that I can give him a game that he can, you know, be a little more complicated, but he can easily beat Dan. And I'm hoping that keeps him heavily engaged with it. And then of course, it'll just be a gateway drug to all of our hex encounter games as well. All the strides with games. Yeah, as with every other game that you introduce children to. So, yep. I've tried multiple times throughout my life to to get into and like chess. And and I'm oh for life on this. I've, I've yet to sort of find the hook that has that has gotten me into it. And I think part of it is because it appears to me. And again, as a, you know, a pure novice that to to be good, to be competitive, you need to learn specific openings. And there are almost programmed openings and programmed defenses for those openings. And then after that, you get to the mid game and things tend to open up and you can be a little more rogue from that. And then even when you get towards the end game, there's just certain, you know, specified strategies on how you do the end game. And so some, and I know I'm simplifying this and the the true chess of fishy and autos are probably, you know, throwing darts at my head at this point. But it just, you know, and again, I guess I just haven't found either the right hook or someone that can teach the sort of the beauty of the game that I just can't, I can't appreciate, you know, I like the movies about it. I watch those. But, you know, and then I've tried and I've never had a true chess teacher. So I've done it either on my own through books, you know, back a hundred years ago. And then, then even on like console systems, I think I had it on the Wii when my, you know, when my boys had a Wii at home. And then just computer chess, you know, there's now the chess.com sites, one of the busiest sites on the internet these days. So and I just, like I said, I just haven't found the hook. Yeah, and I, I have traditionally just bounced off of it because again, I'm off the hook. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If it wasn't for the desire to teach my son, I wouldn't be having a little chess expert right now. But that's motivated it. Small footprint too. Very quick, easy, fast. So it's always nice. around and to be able to do so. That'll probably be a theme for me for the foreseeable future that'll be in the background. Other than that, I haven't done too much on the table. The rest of my Wargaming time really has been spent just around a couple of different systems reading, trying to refresh a little ramping back up for some next Wargames, some Federation and Empire games just nightly been reading some rules sets and such like that, just a refresh. I should make mention, I'll probably stop saying this after a few episodes, but just persistently 24/7, you can assume that I've played some OCS and it's still third winter and I've still been chugging along in a vassal version of that. But as we discussed last time, I just despise on vassal that I can't stand it, so I never spend too long on it. Is that opposed or is that. Nah, just me or just moving pieces around and. Something I can just fiddle with. I had a combat phase the other night where initiated three combat rolled a three, a four and another four, if I remember correctly, as the attacker and for those that know the OCS system, that'll give you some semblance of how well it was going. I got up and I just left, so it's just always a casual thing that I've got going on. But. At least I can yell at you for getting off. It's like, hey, where you go in is. It's just me. Maybe that's the role that AI will play in my gaming future to yell at me to sit back down. Right. Give it a personality, upload a personality and. That's a little scary. Or censor me from saying that I cheated or something like you did Don in the last episode. Yeah, so that's what we've had, I think, on the table and we've been playing. What do we have coming up done in the near future? You mean in terms of playing or coming in the mail or. Or you and I, what do we have? Is a big, big event coming up? So, in August, we will be traveling to St. Louis and eight guys are going to get together and play next war and play four connected games. So we're playing Poland, India, Pakistan, Iran and Korea. So this is. And the designer will be there. He's actually participating and he's doing this in order to, I think, sort of. figure out how he could most effectively and with the most fun, connect the games for people that like to play multiple games at once. Which, you know, to me is an admirable life ambition. So it's going to be a four day, we're going to play for three full days, I think, and we'll have sides picked out, you know, non-alied side and an allied side. And I think the thing that's going to make it really interesting and fun is that the US forces predominantly on the allied side and the Russian forces on the non-alied side will have a limited number of assets that they'll have to sort of spread out over the four theaters. And actually will be allowed to share resources in game so that between turns we'll be able to move air units or special ops forces from one theater to another if they're required or if that person can make a good case to the Russian leader to share his assets. So it should be pretty cool. You know what I miss on that, Kevin? A couple of things. First I'd say by some miracle the other six guys decided we were competent enough to join them. So we made eight and then somehow you've stumbled into being red team's fearless leader. So I hope you got my check for 20 bucks to get a few extra cruise missiles in game turns three. And I think it's it's going to be a great time I'm looking forward to it. We will we don't know the details yet but in some capacity we will do a recap of the event in our next episode. So there's the teaser for what we'll be talking about next episode. We'll try to dedicate as much of our next war chat and such to that so we can go deeper into that system, that event that we attended. And to Don's point I think most more gamers always have an interest in how big can you make a war game gaming session. There's even when you go to a con right the the eye candy is always what are the biggest monster games that are on the table and such. So we we will try to represent what this was like in the next war series and I'd say to what's a little interesting Don for this system when you combine games. You don't need to have a 10 by 6 foot table to fit all the maps on because you don't need to have each theater bordering the other theaters for units to you know traverse across. So well it can be a little bit of a table hog in general. They don't need to be adjacent. So that may be something that folks find appealing about next war combined games. That's a good point. I didn't think of that. That is because you see some of the pictures at some of the cons of these large combined games in its half for room you know of tables put together with you know millions of pieces of plexiglass all over the place to cover it all. So yeah this will be interesting. So I think it will be more spread out and it will give the players a little more space you know between it. So yeah it'll be interesting. I think that you know as we've talked about it's a very detailed oriented process oriented game and so I think right before it starts if you want to check on you know the betting sites there's probably going to be an over under on how many turns we get through in the three days. So that'll be a and you know we thinking about it I think that Korea will probably be the toughest because it's the largest theater in Iran or India Pakistan. I'll probably move the quickest I believe. And on the topic of odds Don and I are on the same side. I am playing in the Pakistan India theater as Pakistan and Don is playing in the Poland theater as Russia. Mitch the designer is on the Blue Forseid in the Korea theater. So I will throw out the ask to the community of seven people that listen to this podcast. If you're familiar with either of those theaters and have some tips and tricks of past strategies you had in next war please drop them in and maybe Don and I can learn something ahead of this in stand a chance. We'll crowdsource this a little bit. Right so and we'll give you credit. We'll share the credit for sure. So yeah. So if you do six other people will know about your contributions if you have something. Yep. Now we'll be past double figures by the time this one comes out. We'll clearly be in the in the teens I bet. So you finalize the contract with that click farm in India. I think I'm going to I was going to hit up actually the elementary school around here and see if they wanted to I could probably get them to to work pretty cheap and just click through. Some free study credits or internships. Yeah. Like that maybe. Yeah. Well, aside from yeah a lot more to come there aside from next war. What do we expect from UPS FedEx and your local US Postal Service. So as we mentioned my copy of inflection point came and then as as I've gotten more into BCS and I started looking at other titles. I actually was able to score last blitz creek at cost which I'm not sure it had to have been a mistake on the site. It was actually eBay but it was from a prominent reseller and you know that they had that had listed on eBay and it came in shrink. So it you know it appears to be authentic and and I got it for essentially what it's listed at on the MMP site plus postage. So that was quite a coup for me. I usually never happens to me. And I'm not jealous at all done that you landed your copy two years later in $150 cheaper than I did not jealous at all. So well if we ever get together we'll break it open for you. Then the other things I'm so Gettysburg first day which is a blind swords game and people have been posting about that that's arrived already. I mentioned Vantage from Stonemire and then the other thing that is coming in the mail I think and within the next few weeks is Rock of Chickamaga, which is in the Black Swan series, same with a most fearful sacrifice and then the Pike Creek expansion. So that'll be their third game in that series. And that's what, and then there's, so you can talk about yours and then we can, I think we're gonna talk a little bit about stuff on pre-order. Yeah, so I'm very disappointed as I'd hope to have this in hand when we record it, but arriving tomorrow for me is 1985 under an Iron Sky by Thin Red Line games. And this is gonna be my second title from that publisher. I also have, is it Deadly Northern Lights? Under Northern Lights? Deadly Northern Lights? Is that Angel? So that's the Scandinavian theater and this is the German North German theater in Central Europe and the two can combine. So naturally that's the appeal for me. But just excited to explore the system a little bit and this fourth edition adds a fair amount of rework. It's not a straight reprint. They've brought in events from an event system from the Sacred Royal Game, which is in the same system. And they've added lines of communication map. I think that's also new in this edition. Some quarter of Adelstuff, which I feel is bog standard with any reprint in our hobby, but overall it's a bit of a monster and it will hopefully not sit too long before it gets put out. I think Big Board gaming kept, I think Kev Sharp has that out now. He's been posting, I think. Okay. Because I think he started posting some of the there's event cards. Is that what I saw that he started posting some of pictures of the event cards that look pretty interesting? Yeah, and I will say from the first title I got Deadly Northern Lights was very impressed with the quality. Everything's a little unique. So this is a European specifically Italian publisher for breed COV in Aloe. I'm probably pronouncing that incorrectly, but he might be the best marketer in our hobby from a publisher perspective I've ever seen. Just he role plays as he's sitting there doing these orders and game design, etc. And it's just fantastic. Everything is a little off those. So if you if you have an OCD tendency and like everything structured in the same, all the papers printed I believe in a European size like A4 or something like that for different sheets. And the box size is non-standard. It drives me crazy. I can't fit it on my bookshelves where I keep the rest of my games, but it's really really well done. Quality is exceptional. So yeah, if anyone's interested in those games you can go on the site and and sign up for email notification. And then you wind up getting these cryptic emails from him, you know, Defcon 4, Defcon 3, and then when you're ready to order it hits Defcon 2. But for those that are interested, I think you need to be on that email list so that you get first shot because he definitely prints a very limited number. And when they're gone, they just skyrocket on the secondary market. So it's it you know, it's I think it's much better to just get on the list and and you know pull the trigger as they come out as opposed to waiting. So I'm on the list. I've actually passed on the last couple again just because I didn't think I'd ever get to it. Yeah, you definitely need your little like multi-mill decoder ring to be able to to decipher what those emails say. And yep, they are indeed out of stock on under an iron sky. They went out of stock on July 22nd. So I think it was only in stock then for those preorder folks and anybody after that for about a week in total. So it it is a very unique model in our hobby. Unless you're talking like a straight kickstarter pledge where they're not buying any extra inventory. You can't find this sitting around from the publisher on their website after the release for the most part. So if you opened any of these because I had heard a comment about counter quality and the laser cut or the lack of laser cut of the counters on the counter sheets. And I've no experience. I don't know whether you've you know broken it open and punched any. I heard that from one individual and I have opened up my copy of deadly Northern lights, but I haven't clipped it. So on the surface just in the sheets, I can't see anything that would be assigned to me that there's an issue there. But sometimes you really do have to go through and clip all the sheets to really find that issue. And often in my experience if they have like a bad offset or something like that, you might just find it on one sheet. And there's so so many counters in that box. I couldn't give it a thorough audit, but so it's something not something I've personally experienced from them. Yeah. I want to I'd like to hear about it once you get it on the table and see what's going on. I'll put it down as an episode idea for 2032. We'll be up to I bet 50 listeners by then. 50 listeners. Yeah. Well, that would be quite the achievement for you and I don't. I think I'll just a much higher number than the number of friends I have. So and we'll see if we maintain an average of one public apology statement from you each episode for your for your spouse. Story in my life. Careful. I see episode three is coming. For pre-orders I just want to call out we won't talk about every pre-order that's out there, but maybe just big ones that we've submitted the pre-order for those that are really interesting to us on the BCS topic. There's a new magazine coming out for BCS. And it also has an intro game inside of it. I want to call out separate from how awesome that is that they're giving that treatment to the battalion combat series specifically. Dickey from RVT board games on YouTube did a ton of content and support for this magazine and the game to my understanding was some play testing. If you want to learn more about it go check out his video. We'll try to put it in maybe the podcast show notes or something like that, but he does a great little rundown of everything that's included how they went about it and he's a content creator you should be listening to anyways when it comes to our space. He's puts out wonderful stuff so that's the pre-order I wanted to call out for this month. Yeah I just have two. I mean I mentioned one was the Star Trek Captain's Chair. The assault game system that comes out of Germany so they have assault 41 and then Sicily 43. So they're coming out with an expansion to Sicily 43 called Prima-Sol Bridge and it's actually still on pre-order if people are interested till the end of the month and then it's due to ship in September at least according to his most recent sit rep. And then just for those that are once again next word Taiwan the second edition is apparently at the printer was the last I heard so especially with everything going on I'm not sure that they have a ship date yet so that could be a while yet but at least it made it to the printer. And then on Discord on the Blind Swords Discord channel there's two developers that have been getting a lot of feedback about their games so there's two more blind Swords games that are probably near final play test one about Atlanta and then one about a smaller battle the Battle of Mansfield and so they're doing a lot of vassal testing and posting that on Discord. So those are ones that I've sort of had my eye on. Yeah great shout-out to on the next word Taiwan that is my favorite next word title specifically this second edition that Mitch has done and really to highlight for folks it's not a reprint it is a true second edition a lot of updates given you know new equipment in the field new tactical decision making that folks are thinking about with that potential conflict if you're interested in a jumping off point I highly recommend Taiwan second edition and that's that's also worth noting that that particular game combines really well with those other Pacific theater operation games for next war just given the geography proximity etc. with Korea and Vietnam like if you wanted to do combined next war that's not a bad way to go because then you're sitting there with one strategic map for the Pacific and you're thinking just about that theater and the PRC's involvement said a maybe balancing Russia PRC etc so yeah yeah that's great The first edition is over 10 years old, right? And so, I mean, I think they had to at least update the order of battle, let alone, you know, the rules will come up to the most recent rules set. But there's so much has changed just from the technology standpoint. Yeah, I suspect that that might be like, well, let's see. 2014, so yeah, 11 years. Yeah, close. I said 10. Yeah, but I had to just make sure you brought your toes a little there, Don. It's like being married. We'll see if Don issues any type of statement from something he says to me tonight, guys. Shout outs. I do have one shout out for this episode. We won't maybe do this every month or something, but this was unique that I just kind of saw in the hobby space that I wanted to call out. Art Wolf's layer. Most are going to know who he is and his channel and what he does. But he was generous enough to actually on his counter clipping live stream show on YouTube. About middle July, I don't know when folks will be listening to this, but middle July this year. He actually did a giveaway for OCS case blue. So he picked up a copy from noble night. I think it retails for something like 900. It's unpunished. It was all validated, et cetera. And did a giveaway. And that's just not something you see too often. And just want to give him massive kudos because as we'll talk about here in our next little segment on the podcast for a lot of a lot of gamers. That's a game that's either sentimental or is an ambition of theirs to try. So really kind of touch the heart of little seeing that happen. So it's nice of him to do. Yeah, that's very generous. All right. Well, what are we talking about tonight, Don? As a main topic, what are we? What are we going to talk about? So Kevin and I brainstormed a bunch of topics as when we started thinking about doing this podcast. And hopefully you'll you'll be around to hear more of them. And tonight we want we thought we would talk about the whole sort of idea of grail games. And whether it's is it really grail games? Is it grail systems? Is it you know, and how do you even define what would be, you know, what would you refer to as a grail game? Well, I'll maybe start with something of a definition as I was thinking about this and Don, we haven't talked about this live yet. So we'll see how this goes. But in my mind, for a grail game, it kind of breaks into one of three buckets. It's a grail game because the footprint size or depth is so vast that for most folks on an ordinary gaming day or, you know, season, whatever it might be. It's just not really achievable or within their current capacity to, you know, have that game out for the year that it would take to play it or something like that, right. The second bucket that I think could define a game as a grail game would be that it is so complex, so intense in terms of learning and understanding that the casual war gamer isn't going to be able to get to that in some type of, you know, consistent basis and really experience the game for what the designer probably intended. Or the third bucket would be it's a grail game because it really needs either an opponent or multiple opponents, but the time commitment to get those many humans involved in playing that game regularly is just not feasible for that individual. So just to give an example, here I stand is a game that you can go to a con and you can play that in a day and it'll be a good experience. But if you don't have those six people or a con environment to go to to play that game, it can feel like a grail game to you. Although for other gamers that regularly go to cons or have a large local gaming group, it's just seen as any other regular multiplayer game. And I think that definition, a game could be a little bit of all three or two of those buckets, but those are kind of the three dimensions or ways that I think about define the grail game and it's kind of vary by the individual player, then what they deemed to be a grail game. Well, that was really well thought out you. And you didn't even look now, you didn't even look down at notes I was watching you did that all right right from your head that was very impressive. So well, if you're going to spout out just a bunch of bullshit Don, you can't be reading notes. It just has to be from the heart. Well, that lets me out not having much heart. So would you add so would you add a fourth category to that of games that are out of print. And, you know, so you mentioned case true just before or you know, I'll see people post about. And then you know, the end bend, food, and you know that come in and out of print that people went, you know, if it's available people post that it's available so people can jump on it. So I yeah, is that a category that you would sort of put into your another bucket of what really a grail game. I think it could be yeah, I mean, just for some folks, the simple truth is it's it's no small thing to spend $1,000 on a bunch of cardboard that again, for most you're going to be lucky to be able to have the space time commitment, maybe other players to actually sit down and play. Yeah, I certainly think that would fall into one of those dimensions of how you define a grow game is just its scarcity value. I know we've we know some folks done that you know, we'll look at games and they'll maybe try to get some, you know, war games that were designed in a third country that's not accessible in English or something like that right. That's it's not price restriction. It's more so just an accessibility. Right. Was it acquire that that given game. So I think that's a good call out. Yeah, I think I mean, when I was you know, when I was thinking about this and trying to come up with examples and again, not you know, having only been in the hobby, you know, the war game hobby for you know, whatever eight, 10 years now it most that you know, I don't have the the depth of experience to call back to 20, 30 years ago when you know, XYZ game was out that you know everybody had and so you know, you'll see that come up with like one on, you know, the different discord or on Facebook games like ambush, get mentioned like that that, you know, people, you know, I found this copy and you know, I've been looking forward for years or so you know, their games out there that I just don't have the experience, you know, the depth of experience to even be able to call back to so, you know, the one example that I can give that's more recent would be a flying pigs title armageddon war, which you know, was as I started getting into sort of more hex encounter and some of the hypothetical war type stuff, I saw that I, you know, watch some videos that looked really cool, had some great mechanics and some dice mechanics and it was at a print and I kept asking flying pig, you know, when you're going to reprint this and you know, next year, next year, next year and then I wound up, so I wound up eventually buying the long road, which is a, also a fly, you know, a flying pigs title, it's world worth three and I think I mentioned this with paranormal elements. So it has, you know, you can add in werewolves and vampires and other monsters and so it was on sale and I bought it and it had an expansion so I knew it had good replayability and I really got into that and then, then Armageddon, then they reprinted Armageddon war. And so then I, you know, of course I bought it because I said, you know, I was always going to buy it and then it sat on my shelf for months because of other games and I was into, I was into the long road and then actually have over the last few months was play testing the next expansion to the long road. And so now I'm like really embedded in that game and so, you know, I had Armageddon war, I sold it and it was like, well, at one point it was a grail game, but it's now been replaced and so, you know, I think in my, in my head, you know, the definition is is a little different for me because again, I can't call back to games from 15, 20 years ago that, you know, defying the game. You know, defying the hobby back then that everybody either has and covets or, you know, they, they, they want it. And, and maybe I'll build on that a little and throughout the maybe there's a fifth dimension to why somebody might classify a game as a grill game in the game. that would be, you know, there's an achievement unlock or a prestige associate it with it. Oh, hey, you watched the big bang theory. Remember that game, Sheldon plays on the floor at campaign for North Africa game? I've played that game, that really complex game, right? There might be an element of that too when some people think about what is a grail game or why do they want to play that given maybe pop culture game or what have you is just, yeah, I'm an OCS player and I'm really an OCS player because I've played case blue type of context to it maybe. Yeah, it's another good point. Yeah, it's an interesting sort of, you know, how people define and certainly, you know, for the listeners, we'd love to hear your definitions. So you can put them in the comments once we put this up and, you know, see if you agree with what we've said or not. You know, to me, I tend to be, you know, more as these days, more system based. And so when I thought about this, you know, besides Armageddon, where there are any single gains that I had out there that, you know, that I really wanted to read or out a print or, you know, we're, we're, we're unapproachable for me. And I really didn't come up with a lot to be honest. It was, it was, you know, a much, so I thought about it more about our their systems that I'd want to get into, you know, that either I can't because they're unavailable or I can't because I'm not willing to invest the time to learn them well enough. And, you know, as we've talked about when I, when I break a game out, it's out for a while. And I try and really learn it as opposed to play through it once and, and put it away. So, you know, are there any systems that sort of fit those bills? And I came up with at least for in my list, two sort of systems that, that, you know, I would think about. And one would be the GMT series Great Battles, the American Civil War, GVACW that, you know, appeals because it's moderate complexity. You know, they're initially designed by Richard Berg, so you know that they're, they're high quality, they're chit-pull. So it satisfies sort of the solo gamer, you know, need for randomness. And, and, you know, but seven of the ten titles are at a print and two were on P500. And so, and, and not that, and we'll talk about this at some point, not that I'm a completionist, but if it's a system I like, sort of like, you know, I'll use blind swords as an example. So, you know, any blind sword civil war title that comes out, I'll buy. And I know I'll play it because I know the rules, so to get it on the tables, not that, that big a deal. So I thought the GVACW, you know, if they were all available, would I sort of fall down that rabbit hole, you know, and try and get hold of all ten. And as opposed to, you know, chasing them all around the internet and on secondary markets in order to find those. And then I balanced that against, well, I already have several civil war, you know, systems that I play, including, you know, including blind swords. And then I'm not sure I've mentioned pub battles or musket battles as it's been renamed, which is from Command Post Games and is a little bit like a, a Kriegsfield kind of game. So it's a period, a period specific canvas map. It's a beautiful map. And then wooden blocks that are either in the either come in division, divisional or, or brigade level. And so they, you know, they've started doing it with smaller blocks. So I've all these civil war series, you know, what I really want to learn another civil war series. So that was one that that I had on there. And then I think the, the other one, which I'm not sure it really qualifies because I can actually get all these would be the MMP games, a victory denied, a victory lost, a victory awaits, you know, until of these were put out by Tetsua Nakamura, a victory awaits and a victory lost. And those are about Barbara Rosa and Ukraine. And those are ones available actually because it was recent, a victory awaits is still available on MMP. A victory lost is on the secondary market. And then a victory denied is also on the secondary market. That was designed by Adam Stark, whether, but all based on the same rules set. So those are, you know, I'm not sure that whether that qualifies as grail because they are available, you know, and not for a million dollars, you know, it's 20, 30, 40 dollars over the, the initial, the initial retail price on the secondary market. But I know, you know, it's a chit-pull system. It's on the low to medium complexity. So it'd be easy to sort of get into and get on the table and play. So again, to me, it's sort of a different, to me, it's about, are there systems that I either regret not getting into and now have sort of miss the boat either because of my limited brain capacity. I'm not going to be able to learn them. Or, you know, I don't have space or there's just so many other things to play. And so I think those are the two that for me sort of fall into that category. I'm not sure they're real, it's not sure, especially based on your buckets, it's not really grail, but they're sort of, you know, in my mind, that's sort of what's out there. Well, as we know, Don, my buckets are indisputable truths of the universe. It sounds very good. I like, now I feel like embarrassed to talk about these. It's like, wait, it doesn't fit a bucket. So not nonsense, not I, I, not to go on too much of a tangent, but we should put on our playlist of victory awaits or one of those red box titles. I've got a victory awaits sitting behind me here. And I'm a big fan of the system, very approachable, very easy. If anybody's listening, I would highly recommend it. At same Japanese designer that MMP picked up for those titles, he also has two titles more recently that folks may be familiar with from VUCA, which is traces of war and traces of hubris. So I mean, very, very minor differences that are more deemed specific, but the same systems readily available to purchase from VUCA and as with all VUCA products to the production quality's fantastic. So that's, that's one that again, not a co-entitent, but we should really add to our playlist for you and I together. Is it on Vassel? Yeah, it's on Vassel. All right, so after we get through all the BCS titles, then we'll, we'll move on to that. Something for 2041. What do you have on your list? Yeah, from a series perspective, maybe just to continue where you left off there. I had thought about series and systems a little bit and you know, a couple came to mind that maybe I would put on there. One would be Red Sash games and it kind of falls into a couple of those buckets of, they are print on demand, so it is a little easier to get a hold of them, but the price points are significant in terms of pricing for our hobby. I'm certain worth it. I'm not critiquing the price, the blue panther and the designer have listed for them, but the Red Sash series is one that's kind of out there for me. What are the titles? A lot of them, honestly, I think would have too heavy of a European accent for me to do any justice, but you know, they're all, would be age of enlightenment. So like 18th century, 17th century, maybe there's a little too. So it's something that's not quite as covered in our hobby that era, so I find that very interesting. And I think it'd probably be defined by most players as monster games, so that's one, but as I said, they're thinking about it. It's kind of like a nice staff. Like I don't have this burning passion inside of like I feel incomplete because I'm not going out there and playing the Red Sash system or something like that. And then that also led to thoughts of well, systems that I am really passionate about, but maybe I want to explore more. Maybe like a federation and empire makes the list. I've been playing federation and empire this year. I'm loving every minute that I spend with it. It's a journey to be sure. But when I think about federation and empire, I sit there and I'm learning the standard game rulesets and such right now. It's kind of like next world of standard game and advanced game rulesets in a sense. I feel like in that series, I would almost define that for me as a grail series to learn all of those expansions that has and play a fluid game of that. That might be out there for me as a grail. But yeah, you go ahead, Doc. Do you want to just expound a little on what that is? There may be people until you talked about it to me. I had no idea. So just yeah. So So, Federation and Empire is an old game, and I might get some of the specifics of the history wrong, but I think it first released in the 1980s. It's currently with Amarillo Design Bureau. So it was a smaller publisher. They have an old license or a royalty setup of some kind with the Star Trek IP, where specific errors of Star Trek, et cetera, they can print and produce games on. And they have a couple of different systems and series, Federation and Empire is kind of the strategic level Star Trek universe war game that they have, and very much a war game. And again, would be defined as a monster, I think, by most players. But then they also have, and these have larger followings, Starfleet battles, which is more of a tactical. Forgive me any enthusiast of these two systems, but I would describe it to the casual war gamer as it's ASL for spaceships in Star Trek. It's kind of what I would describe it as. Obviously, it's not a one to one, but it's kind of the similar depth, passionate following, et cetera, just with that different system in IP. And Federation and Empire has a base box game that's been released and reprinted two or three times now. However, there are modules or expansions that have been printed for the game. It's probably about eight of them or so that are in and out of print that you can add onto it. And I've got on the bookshelf behind me a three-inch binder with the rules for all of those printed out and put in. And the binder is full, just in terms of page count. It's hundreds of pages. And it's not difficult to approach because of how it's written or anything like that. It's just deep is how I would describe it. It's well done, but it's very deep, not complex for the sake of being complex, but just a deep system that takes time that you have to invest into. So in my mind, I kind of picture that of if I'm going to say that I have any series or system as a grail system, it's probably that even though I'm on the periphery of it right now in my journey of trying to play it, I would classify that maybe as my grail series. So would you define that as something like that as a lifestyle game? Is that something that you really needed to vote the hours to in order to develop any type of competence and understanding? Yeah. Well, let me maybe put it this way. It has a parallel to games like an OSCS series or similar where the average wargamer can pick up Federation and Empire. And certainly with the standard rules, certainly, pick it up and have a good play experience with it. And it'll be a weekend or longer long event to play through a game maybe. However, it's kind of like that old expression that it's like chess of you can understand all the mechanics of it, but the strategy behind it is really what takes the hours and such to go in and that's how I would define it as that lifestyle game. You can go through the motions for any given wargamer to approach the system in a casual sense, but you really have to invest that time to get the most out of it, I would say. Yeah, it's interesting. And maybe that's another six bucket or dimension of a grail game. Does it require you to commit your wargaming lifestyle or the material portion of your time to learning and diving into it? Perhaps that's another dimension of this conversation too. I'll actually pivot with that to specific titles that aren't series or games, because there were a couple I wanted to mention. And for me, if I had to pick just at gunpoint, one thing that I wanted to say was my grail game, I would say decision games were in the Pacific. Now, I will admit, I know very little about the game. I have not read the full rule set. I have not done a ton of research into the game, but I do own it and I've perused it and I understand kind of its level of operations and what's involved. But the reason that I can instantly say that's my grail game is on BGG years ago, many years ago now, I remember stumbling across this game and one image has just been seared into my mind. And that was of a gentleman who had worn the Pacific setup mounted on the wall with magnets and counterholders in a vertical setup for the entire game. And seeing that just left such an impression on me that now I can't associate anything with it other than that's the goal. When I got that up like that and I'm playing through a full campaign of that game, rightly or wrongly, bad game or good game, I'm not sure. I think that's when I will feel like, OK, I've checked that box as the grail. And maybe that's another aspect to this conversation of what makes it a grail game. And it's something that you can't just say, I'm going to go fulfill my war gaming goal or mission or whatever this weekend. It requires that time, that investment of effort to put in this would involve putting sheet metal on my wall. This would involve 3D printing hundreds, if not thousands of little magnetized-- Right, it's a counter for those counters. So because all of that would go into it, it's kind of like the labor of love, I think that's part of it. Again, might be a horrible game. I haven't done too much research into it. I'm certain that there are folks that have tried this game or maybe other decision games and have have an opinion or a biased about it. But because of that one image from BGG where I saw that gentleman set up hanging vertically on a wall, that's my association with the term grail game. And that's what I'll probably have is the definition until I achieve it, hopefully one day. So your basement redo, you didn't put up a metal wall? There is already space and mine for this setup. So that's already been allocated. I should have figured out how public that is. We won't go into on the podcast. Well, once it's up, we'll have a christening. We can come-- Yeah, no, there would be a party or some kind. Mostly to help put up and do the game setup, but you got to list some help with that. So you have other titles on that list? Yeah, one other one that I did want to mention that isn't my first mental association with grail game, but I think it's worthy of mentioning and is something where there's a clear plan and way to achieve it. And that is-- I'm going to cheat a little, Don. It's the Ostfront game that Anthony Burkett's working on no CS. So it's the combination of Crimea, the third winter forgotten battles, and hero city. Those four titles all stacked together, representing the East Front or World War II from 1943 to 1944. I would probably list that as another grail game. I know it's four different titles, but there's a comprehensive rule set that brings them all four together. So is that in-- is that in design mode at this point? So they've had multiple play tests now of the entire Ostfront game, mall put together and played for a couple of years now. And right now, it's just hero city that hasn't been printed and published. I never want to rush anyone. But I would guess that it's late this year, next year, that that goes up on preorder. That's an MMP decision, not even a say carol decision, I believe. It's just their print schedules and such of when they want to get those things to the printer. If Cross Channel, the other OCS West Front game comes out before hero city, that might push hero city to maybe like a late 26 or early 27 release, I would guess, but this is all hypothetical on my part. Yeah, no exposure. So it sounds interesting, for sure. The nice thing is that the maps, it-- a lot of these combined games that cover an entire front, often the map footprint can be very incongruent or inconsistent. This is relatively consistent where you could fashion a table that holds it pretty well. And they manage to do that at cons as they do the play testing. So-- yeah, any other title call outs you would have for Grail Games, though, Don? You know, I'm actually looking at my list and there really isn't. I, you know, like I said, it's, I tend to lean in much more towards things that are part of a system so I can learn one set of rules and go from there. So I'm trying to, you know, and I think about it that way, it changes, it sort of changes the dynamic a little bit of, of where I would look. And maybe a grail game in our hobby isn't meant to be achieved. Maybe that grail game is just a thought that's nice to have, but ultimately, the latest coin game from GMT or the latest, you know, BCS inflection point title will forever occupy our attention. And again, those dimensions, I mentioned the resources, the time and participants, the space. Maybe we all forever be consumed by those other competing priorities and instead not get to the grail game and that's why it's a grail. Right. And I want, like you said with, you know, what you were talking about, how many games, how many, how many of those that people define as grail games, do they have, and they've already obtained it, and it just sits because of all the factors that you just mentioned, time, space, priorities, you know, other games. And so again, is it the one you don't have that's out there that you want or the one you have that you just can never get to the, never get to the table? Yeah, I have worn the Pacific sitting here in my closet because doesn't fit nicely on a bookshelf. Thank you again, but that's what happens, I guess. But I don't feel any closer to achieving that grail objective because it's sitting in the closet. Should probably sell it, frankly, but you know, there's that optimistic hope that one day it will be mounted on a wall. And what will, I think we will talk about probably, and you know, sometime this calendar year, the idea of collecting versus, you know, playing the games that you have, you know, how many people are, you know, buy to play and how many people buy to collect and how many people are pure completionists, you know, regardless of whether they get them to the table or not. So I think that's another interesting topic. Absolutely. Or full of teasers audience. All seven of you, I hope you come back. Yeah, don't give us too many more ideas or we'll never, we'll never get, they'll be our grail ideas at that point for one of these days. We'll get to that. So, I could see that being a non-going segment, Don. Right. Don and Kevin's grail ambitions. Well, if we're going to exit that, anything going on in the world of Philly sports for you lately? You know, just getting ready for the birds to defend their super bowl. For those that watch the Espees, I don't know whether how many people watch the Espees and Shane Gillis, who's a huge Eagles fan really did. If you want to hate the Eagles more than you do if you're not from Philly, then call up the bit he did about the birds when he was talking about the team of the year. And because he really just shit all over, you know, all the other people, all the other teams that were nominated and also found the way to throw in the cowboys along with it. So, that was pretty funny. So, getting ready for football season, you know, as always, these last 10, 12 years cautiously optimistic about the beginning of the hockey season. You know, and that I think we'll probably spend some time maybe right before the season opens with our short hockey preview. So, I'll save some of that for then. And, you know, just watching the Philly's, you know, hang on to first place at this point and desperately look for relief pitching because they think it's their biggest need now that their main, you know, their main closer was banned for 80 games for drug violations. So, welcome to maybe some stereo types in Philadelphia, you know. Right. So, there was a good, the for if you're there was a good quote today from AJ Brown. Apparently, someone at training camp, one of the rookies was complaining about how hard it was, you know, and the heat because it's been a hundred degrees, you know, 90s here in Philadelphia. And he put this guy in his place, you know, that if you're going to be in Philly, you work. And that's what we do. And he was much more articulate and used a lot more four letter words than I'll use on this podcast. So, that was, got me pumped for football again. Yeah, that's quickly approaching. This is kind of that weird time of the year for sports it feels like where do you have baseball and then baseball for the most part. So, yeah. No, and Chelsea, Chelsea lifted the world club cup, which I have very conflicted emotions on given the background and controversy around that competition, but it was still a competitive tournament. So, trying to balance my emotions on how I feel about that. And we'll continue to spend hundreds of millions of dollars picking up new players and pissing everybody off by being the Yankees of the football world perennially with questionable money and such in the system. But that it's got me pumped for August. We only have a, that I don't know how close to you, you follow the calendar for European football. But we have like two and a half weeks off because of this summer competition that the team played in, which is just any professional support telling all the athletes that you have two and a half weeks to just recover your bodies feels like insanity to me. I can't understand that. I need more time off and I worked in an office job sitting on my, my butt all day and I need more than two and a half weeks off all year. That's well, the shitty teams and the bad players have had more time off. So, it's just, it's just the elite teams that play through, you know, these into these long tournaments. So, that's a great point, Don. That's a great point. I'm sure all the listeners will agree with that sentiment. Yeah, I've learned, I have a good friend who's a huge Liverpool fan and then between him and you, I've learned a lot about European football and it's the financial system behind all that is fascinating in terms of the amount of money and you know, the transfer windows and the way players are just sort of bought and sold and it's very interesting. It's much different than, you know, how sports are managed financially here, I think. Yeah, I mean, the closest I think you can get in North America would probably be baseball because there is more of that cash aspect and there's not really the salary cap environment. Right. But even still it, it just still feels weird, I think, to most North American audiences to say, you got the player because you gave the other team $80 million. Right. You didn't give up a draft pick or another player. You just gave them $80 million. I think it creates this unique association then with the players on the pitch of that's the one worth 40 million, that's the one worth 10 million. Right. And it's just different from other sports. But yeah, yeah, it certainly is. It's, and it's, you know, and it's just, you know, so exciting to watch 90 minutes and hope for A-Gull to be scored. I mean, it's the tension that that builds, you know, if you're awake, that, you know, to watch that is, it's special. I'm going to deflect that criticism of the sport real quick and just move right past and onto the topic of I do want to add, although I find that financial aspect fascinating. You do have legitimate concerns though that it's going to ruin the sport. I mean, I, as much as Chelsea's recent success, we can go back to 1905 and talk about success for the club though, but recent success certainly has been built on investment in the club in dollars, or pounds, or euros, whatever it may have been, that, that does start to maybe tarnish a little bit of the sporting and competition side of it, which is really unfortunate and something that I think is a little less pervasive in North American sports because you have things like entry drafts and what not, where that balance feels a little bit more regulated than just which international football club has the deepest pockets to go by those, those best players. It's a little different in that sense, we, we have had a great episode, I think, done any other closing thoughts for the seven hopefully eight listeners come next month that you want to mention. We would love feedback, we'd love ideas, we'd like your thoughts about what we talked about, tonight, especially the the Grail discussion. Let us know if we were way off base or if we touched any points that you guys agreed with or that we enlightened you about. Other than that it's been fun as always. Yeah I've had a blast and I'm particularly really looking forward to next episode and trying to give a little bit of insight into how this next work combined game goes. I'm hoping that folks find that intriguing topic for us to cover and we'll we'll see how special we'll be able to make that episode. We'll have to figure out how to we'll make sure there's pictures, you know, we'll take photos and then figure out the best way to to make those accessible to people whether it's on discord or on Facebook or even just you know to link it in from the show. I'm glad you went in that direction because I was sitting there thinking well we have like an AI voice over what they're seeing and the pictures to try to describe with words instead of the medium that's not visual but no. Yeah. We'll post them somewhere. That's a smarter idea. Let's do that. And we can you know try and and we'll see how much time we have and in terms of AARs and how detailed you know we'll see what people want to do that are there in terms of reporting out what's going on so that everybody so that everyone there can debrief as well as us talking about it with the audience. Yeah. Well with that listeners we hope you're well and have a very excellent month ahead of you and we will see you in September. Yeah. Take care all. Be safe everybody. Take care.