Episode 2: “Are We Originally Innocent?“

Welcome back to our conversations on TOB. - Yeah, last time we did a terrible job of introducing ourselves and it's like, who's in the room? So who's in the room? - I'm Lori, you guys know me. - I'm Father Adam. - Nah, I'm Peyton. - Okay, so now you know who's in the room 'cause it's not visual, so it's really hard to be able to introduce yourself. - Actually, we have a room full of fifth graders and sixth graders and middle schoolers and parents and it's just us trying to focus. - And you know how it's all that's alive because you don't hear all these little voices and chatterings and things like that. So clearly that, we don't have to-- - It's very well. - It's not a lie, it's in my head. - In your head. - It's like, on focusing these conversations on like what are students are like, not struggling with but desire, you know? Like there's been such a great response from them as we've done these TOB lessons and these TOB sessions with them for them. It's been amazing. - Oh yeah, you've gotten all kinds of questions. - That's great. And my teaching team is amazing and they're like volunteers. And they wanna know more. - Yeah. - And they wanna dive deeper, which is the thing is cool. So my thing is, and it's funny 'cause knowing the topic on original innocence, I like nerded out and I was like, so I have a PDF of all of John Paul II's Wednesday audiences and I start like searching through that and like finding stuff and I just have like a blast doing that sort of stuff. - I wanna know how many pages does that PDF come on? I mean all his audiences? - Uh, about 270 something. And then I'm also working on something that's like a continuous text because it's all Wednesday audiences. So like, you know, here's St. John Paul II, St. John Paul II, great. And he like comes out and he's like, so last month I was talking about this. And so he kind of gives a recap because if you weren't at that Wednesday audience, then you know, then you wouldn't understand what he's talking about. And he's basically giving these people, these pilgrims to Rome, like master's level class. - Right. - I mean. - To a normal pilgrim like me. Just an average person who's showing up like, woo, holy father. And he's like, let me tell you about original innocence and we're gonna dive into Genesis. And he legit took the classes that he would teach in his classroom. And he's like, this is gonna be my Wednesday audiences 'cause I want the universal church to understand these things. - That's so good. - So pretty awesome. - It is so cool. Yeah. And so I know last time we kind of jumped right in kind of a little bit, I wanted us to share a little bit about like where we come from. And then like what each of us really loves about To be. And the hopes that that would be a conversation others have. You know, like share a little bit more about, you know, like where you come from because that's the way. - Keep going. - That's the place where God created us. - Here's something strange. I think Curtis decided to jump on the organ. He decided to bless us with his presence. - That's cool. - We're just gonna keep recording though because, well, nice background sound. - Nice background sound. - We'll talk around Flare. - Actually, you can turn down the sound right there. Just put that knob to the left. That way. - Which, that's probably louder. - There we go. - Sorry, I didn't know if it was your left or my left. And I'm feeling very dyslexic right now. - Yeah, backwards. - She's also looking at it behind her head, which is turning it all on. - Sorry, I just had to do that backwards anyway. - So I know music right now, bummer. - Sorry. - But yeah, like kind of, you know, I really like for us to like start with what we do with the kids. Like, think about what do you love about? What is T-O-B? T-U-What's the thing? And then this time, so we did a little of that and where we come from. And then this time, like chapter two for the kids is, yeah, like in terms of how God created us male and female and in his image and likeness. Such a core theology, the body, pooped on Paul. I mean, scripture, Genesis 1, right? - That's how the Bible starts out. - Yeah. - So just, and created us in love. And one of the best things, one of the coolest things that I learned doing these classes with Christopher West is like, so there's these bookends of the Bible, Genesis. How much he loves us, created us in his image and likeness. There's Revelation where he wants us with him for eternity. And right, Smack-Dab in the middle of the Bible is song of songs. That love story of how much he, you know, that between Christ and the church. And I'm like, to think that's how much he loves us. Like he gave us this church. I don't know. That's just one of my favorite T.O.Bs. So kind of that originally, like he had this whole plan in mind from beginning to end. - Amen. - Now that's how he loves is stuck in my head. - Yeah. Who sings that? That's a great song. - There's a lot of people do covers of it. I don't know who the original is. - Who's the original? It's like, I can feel like I'm gonna whisper. - I gotta go wave a heck of a heck of a song. - Matt Mars. - Stephen Torres-Jabman, one of those old days. - I think it's Stephen Torres-Jabman. I don't know, could be wrong. - Yeah, I love when music comes from scripture and scripture feeds theology of the body. It's so cool. - And that's how John Paul II talks about original innocence. He goes back to Genesis and he's saying, if we want to understand who we are supposed to be, we have to understand that original innocence, how God originally made us to be. So if we want to have a deeper understanding of that call that God is asking of us, we have to go back to that original innocence. And what does that look like? - Yeah. But there's actually, so I've probably brought up in several homies, Big C.S. Lewis van. Like Big C.S. Lewis van. - Oh my gosh, I started reading his book Miracles. It's the worst. - Oh, so I haven't read Miracles. - Oh, so, I'm sorry to hear that. - It's like philosophy, five of two, unlike, oh, no, two of me. - Okay, so. - But normally, you can-- - I've read like the problem of pain. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have not read Miracles. I've read the problem of pain, which is the question of theodicy, which is amazing, which is the question of, if God is all loving and how is there bad things in the world and the problem of pain is an amazing question. If you've ever wondered that, how could there be bad things in the world when God is all love and that sort of stuff? The problem of pain is a great answer that, theologically, it's the question of theodicy. So that's another C.S. Lewis. That's not what I wanted to. Actually, I want to point to the space trilogy, which is a novel. - They made us read that when I was in high school. - They made you, you got to read it. - Parallel andja, that's what it's called. - And it's great. - Oh my gosh, so that's what I want to talk about. - Well, I remember it clearly. - Yes. - I mean, it was good enough. - So clearly, it was good enough for you to remember. - So, you know, he's, the space trilogy, so this is the second book. The first one, he goes to Mars. We're not gonna get in that, 'cause there's something particular. I want to talk about at Parallel Andra. So in Parallel Andra, you have, as if, so God in this world is called Melendil. So which is God is what people outside of Earth, out of the address God. And so you have Venus is where it goes to the second time. And it is a new creation. So you have the original parents of male and female. And it's amazing because you have, his name is Ransom, he's the kind of the good character in here, and then you have this other character who's essentially been possessed. And they're both in conversation with the original mother. They're on Parallel Andra, and trying to, this possessed character is trying to convince her and corrupt her to fall. And it's incredible because what C.S. Lewis is doing is showing this original innocence in a perfect, profound way that you can really only do in a, you know, in a sci-fi type way. Like it is, he's using sci-fi to depict a point. And so you have, this character is trying to convince him, his name is Weston, and he's going through, trying to actually explain what things are bad and evil and things like that. And so what? - Which we're really gonna get to next time. - Yeah. - And so, but it was incredible. So this, in this pure innocence of this original mother, she said, well, we must make him older than talking about Ransom because there's this back and forth. And Ransom says, all the queen and mother in her were revealed to him and he knew that she wished him and all things infinitely well. And he, meaning Weston, he could do nothing. His weapon had been knocked out of his hand. He was incapable of getting her to will anything but the good for another. And so when Weston was trying to say that Ransom was bad, she's like, well, then we must help him. We must help him to be the better verse in that God is calling him to be. So Weston was incapable of corrupting her in that moment. - Wow. - And it's this powerful discourse that she's had to sit. Like, I desire the best. I want everyone and I love how he points out it was all the queen and mother in her were revealed. There was something deeply rooted in that identity that was revealed and destroyed any weapon that he had. It was powerful. I love it. - Yeah, cool. Who's that St. Aranius or whatever God's glory is when man is fully revealed or fully known? I don't know. Oh my gosh. Yeah, beautiful. What did you like about studying that in high school, Peyton? - Parallel andro. - Yeah. I mean, I just like the sci-fi on his sci-fi, man. - It was a nice switch up from the normal books and so I could read it. - Oh yeah. I was a philosophy major but I can not. Sometimes I can't get into his stuff. - Okay. - Yeah, I force myself because he's so amazing. - I love the crowd. - It's a tiny, a series class of the Biblical. - Yes. - I love the Biblical. - It's amazing. - It's amazing. - I was talking to someone about it one time and about the line "The Witch in the Wardrobe" and they legitimately did not realize that Aslan was Christ. And I was like, all right, let's-- - Oh, come on, let's pray to David. - David's book. - David's book. - Yeah, and I was just like everything about that whole scene. Like the innocent victim going in place of the sinner and he's like, "Oh, I'm sorry." And then he was resurrected, I mean, the table, I mean, everything, the tearing of the veil, being the breaking of the altar that he was sacrificed. I mean, everything is there. And he was like, whoa, I never put that together. - Yeah. I hope our kids are reading that. I hope our kids are going back as we teach this particular, this second session, particularly for our six graders. And we kind of go back to the story of Adam and Eve and that originally how God made us. And in the garden, even like, gosh, God just wants the best for us. Like what you said with the CS Lewis stuff. I mean, it's like he just wants to will our good. That's how we're supposed to think of others that originally, like how we look at people with reverence and how we look at them the way God made them, not like all the bad habits that we see. - Right. - So yeah, I hope we can see each other that way more day by day. - There's a good definition I have here. I'm like I said, I geek out. I have my notes here. I've got like clips from his Wednesday audience. - Oh, it's eliminated. You're so weird. - That's okay. I'm just, you know, so my phone. I'm like, oh yeah, this is so cool. I got a weird note. - But there's also the show. There's a good, if we were all the same and we all had our notes and we're all trying to go through notes, this wouldn't work right now. So it's good that we're all different. - I can't wait to see all those notes. Email them to me later. - But so he says, "Original innocence is the same holiness that enables man to express himself deeply with his own body that happens precisely by means of the sincere gift of himself with his consciousness of meaning of his own body, male, man as male and female enters the world as a subject of truth and love." And he also man feels he is a subject of holiness. And so really that, do we recognize ourselves as a subject of holiness and do we see ourselves as a subject of love and truth? I mean, to really think about that, I think that's a profound statement. And so often, do we see ourselves as a subject, okay, start holiness. Do we see ourselves as a subject of holiness? - Yeah. - And how many times do we are like, "Ah, not holy?" - Yeah. - No, that's just not me. Someone else is holy. - Or I'm striving for holiness, but man, am I falling short all the time? I focused on all the falling stories. - You're a confession. - You really feel it. - Yeah. - You feel it after confession, the holiness? - Oh, no, I was in the opposite. - Yeah. - Oof. - I've got a long way to go. - But afterwards, you know, when I've been to confession in the priest's, did I already share this last time? It was so beautiful because he was like not focused on my sin, but just like, wow, how beautiful that you are revealing this to God. And I'm like, that's enough? I don't have to, I can't really change this that easily, but he was like, wow, God just loves you right there. - Yeah. - In that, that's holiness. I guess just like being aware of it, of ourselves, our whole self. - Right. - Yeah, yeah, he is so good. - And to, I'm not truth in love, being a source of truth in love, a subject of truth in love is what he says. Like, I mean, how do you all receive that? I mean, do you see yourself as a bringer of truth, a bringer of love? Like, how does that look like in your day to day life? - Yeah, I think it's identity. Like really knowing who I am despite sin or despite brokenness, or like we talked about last time, bad things happen, or despite even good things happening, that's not really who I am, that's like external, that's not my identity, my identity, my core being the truth of, I am a child of God, I am made in his image, like that's overwhelming. - Hmm. - I am created in holiness, for love, to be loved, not to be used, or not to be, like to know that, despite what the culture, like, I don't wanna say does to me, but happens, that's so overwhelming and so cool. I don't know, I think about identity with the truth of who I am. - Actually, Peyton, I have an interesting question for you since you're about to bring new life into the world. - I'm gonna say go. - Yeah, a few months ago, and so, you know, what I'm sure between you and JP kind of thought about this, just knowing the two of you, like, how do you desire your daughter to know that she is beautiful in the eyes of God, that she is a gift, and that she's worthy of love, and that she's a source of truth. Like, what are those hopes that you have for your daughter? Like, not even like, how do you plan on making that happen, but what are those hopes for your daughter? - Hmm. - Goodness, that, yeah. That's a big question. - You're just trying to get through morning sickness, right? - Yeah, well, thank goodness, that just ended. But I don't know, I think truth and love can't be separated, and so sometimes, really loving someone is being truthful, even when you don't wanna be, or you wanna like, sugarcoat something, but our world, sugarcoats too much, and like, sometimes you have to cut through that. I don't really know when I'm going with this, but, yeah. - How do you feel about being a mom, and how do you feel? - That's overwhelming. - Does it change your identity, or any truth about what you know about yourself? Or does it enhance it? I think for me it enhances it. Like, it's more, I become more of who I am. I don't know. - I guess so, 'cause I mean, if we're talking about, like, mailness and femaleness, like God created them, and Genesis, and going back to that, I think an intrinsic nature of woman is to nurture, to be a nurture. So, I am excited to see how that people say, like, naturally or innately, just kind of, like, comes out of you whenever you do have a child, and you have to just step into that role, and it's just, it's like, intrinsic nature. - Right. - So, there's no point in being like, nervous, or scared. - Exactly. - 'Cause like, yeah, sure. Any number of things could go wrong, and like, bringing up a new life is a very big task. Like, it's a daunting thing, but, it doesn't have to be because, like, we're literally created for this, like, woman is created to nurture. So. - So, primordial, going back to original innocence, it's primordial, before the fall, God said, be fruitful and multiply. Like, God desired this even before the fall, like, that we, that the vocation of motherhood and fatherhood exists. Those things are, we could even say, carry on, even after the fall, that we are to be mother and father, and there's that giving and receiving, that receptivity and that giving of oneself. There's one line that I wanna share last line, and then I know we have a question to do, that we're gonna throw an off by, and Peyton and I are gonna be like, dear and headlives, but that's okay. So. - (laughs) - John Paul II, so he's talking about that, receptivity and giving of oneself, and fully giving of oneself and vulnerability. And he says, "Let's add this finding of oneself in giving of oneself, becomes the source of a new giving of oneself." And it's, one of the, like, I felt like I went for a walk one morning and I just sat and reflected on this because I feel like that one line could be, like, an entire Wednesday audience. Like that one line is just so loaded to me, and what it makes me think of is if I'm fully authentic in myself to another person, and they just absolutely love that, and they're just like, show me more of yourself. It makes me want to give even more of myself. Like, how can I continue to be as authentic as possible? And meanwhile, on the opposite, when I am acting myself and someone points me towards shame, like, I should be ashamed of who I am. I no longer desire to give of myself, and I want to kind of hide away, and that's tearing us away from that original innocence. - Right. - Rather than willing, as kind of going back to Paralympic, and that mother there, and she's just like, "No, we must help and make everyone understand "and grow deeper in understanding and help another, "just that total gift of oneself." It's, no, I'm gonna hide away now. - Yeah, I got to not want that. - Yeah. - No. - This makes me think of that quote by St. Catharine of Sienna, which has always been one of my favorite quotes that I've ever discovered within the whole Catholic world. And it's, if you are who you are meant to be, you will set the world on fire. So I got has already created us with all the gifts, you know, that we're meant to have, but not just to have to bring to the world, and that's who he made us, what he made us for. So I just think that's a beautiful, - Yeah, thank you. - What they're saying. - Maybe think of, yeah, pray for us. Well, let's get to our question from the kids real quick. So just, I mean, the kids have been amazing with their questions. These may or may not fit into kind of what we've just been talking about, but when do we start having the wanting of girls, which kind of goes with, what is the age when you should seriously start thinking of love with the other gender? So maybe there's something about, like, how can we help our kids understand, like, when do we have that wanting? Is there an age when we need to be in love? How would y'all answer that? - I think our culture tries to say so. I mean, as we said in this, the first episode, that our culture just really over-sexualizes everything, and you see it in the movies, you see it in the media, and like, if you listen to song lyrics of just about any pop song on the radio right now, like, then you hear it there too, and it just seems like it's everywhere, and that it's what we all need to strive for most, is humans starting as early as possible, right? I remember being in middle school, And. So I think I had actually been taught about sex for the first time in grade school like fourth or fifth grade And then in middle school it like clicked as I was listening to just pop radio Every single song was about sex and I was like what in it? I remember almost my innocence being shattered and I was like this is crazy like what's wrong with people? And just yeah having all those questions like why does it seem like literally everything in our world is about this and like it's forced on I like it's like oh like oh so we all have to think this way we all have to listen to songs like this and Everything seems to revolve around this and right the way the culture gets the two confused sex and love Why would you say father? I don't know. What was there a certain age kids should be like speaking of love? not a particular age but a particular level in maturity and I would say this is something that I have working with young people including young adults where I'm like Oh, you still have some maturity growth to that needs to happen and that has to do with the ability to Sacrifice for the sake of another so as we're young like it's all about me and there's this ego Isn't that like naturally part of development and Laura you could talk more about that. That's like I you know I need food. I need this but it's not until you can come outside of yourself and See the needs of another and have that desire on your heart to meet their needs for the sake of their own needs right and Pope Benedict and Davis Caritas as he talks about Aros and agape and this redeeming of arrows. Oh, yeah, and the friendship part of love What early on in arrows? It's this recognition like I Desire something outside of myself. There's something that I that is not me that I desire But then it turns to agape when it's I desire your good for your own benefit But it takes that arrows to be able to say it's something that's not me that I Like I can't provide this myself you have something so it brings me outside of myself And that's that redeeming of arrows, but then that agape is saying I desire your good for your own benefit And that's so important until you can reach that point and so the reality is mostly Most of the kids are not it's the parents right so I think teaching your children how to come outside of that and recognize the good of others and having that desire to Will the good of another that's the basic definition of love until that point has happened Then it's the self like you have something. I want it give it to me. Right Business yeah, no, yeah, absolutely not like that goes against that original innocence where I desire everything for your good Let's close prayer. That's awesome place to end. Okay, can we did you want to close and comment? Oh, yeah I'm also just to to mention to like whenever these kids who are asking like You know in middle school if they're already starting to feel those desires for another person like there There's nothing wrong with that like that's natural. So just yeah Just to put that there or in it towards the good right right and we have to learn like you said It's our responsibility to orient towards a good and hopefully take it from that arrows to agape Just will the good of the other as as God would but to just recognize first and foremost that like those desires are human and normal and No matter like when they start that's normal and it's okay. Just like don't Run away with it and go crazy, you know Would you would you close us with purr in that sure come holy spirit Teachers how to pray Teach our hearts how to be open to God's holy will and his love for each of us Teachers how to receive ourselves as he made us how to share ourselves with the world with all the gifts and talents and Beautiful positive attributes that he's given each of us in a unique and unrepeatable way We ask that you continue to bless the TOB program that happens here at St Margaret Mary and all the years that falls upon to bless our amazing volunteers who who carry this message out to all of our students and Just rejuvenate their their hearts for this particular subject this particular mission each and every time they have to get up there and speak on any of these things may there be no fear and the love of what goes into this and Lord we just ask you to continue blessing on this and and on this little podcast Thank you for Laurie and Father Adam and all the good gifts. We love you Lord amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you for our son and the Holy Spirit Thanks guys